Ferrari clowns have handed Lewis the title - Ecclestone

[CNR]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1068689/Ferrari-clowns-handed-Lewis-title--Ecclestone-pours-scorn-Singapore-fiasco.html


Bernie Ecclestone put on his best straight face last week and in one simple sentence condemned Formula One giants Ferrari to another bout of public ridicule. 'If the Ferrari president is right about the Singapore Grand Prix being a circus,' Ecclestone told The Mail on Sunday, 'then we have to be grateful to him for providing the clowns.'

[gloomyDAY]

Owned! :laugh:

[elinagr]

ahahahahhahahahaha thats the best answer!

[F1boat]

I agree with Bernie and Luca deserved this after his idiotic comment.

[Knock-on]

:laugh:

Love him or hate him, he does come out with some cracking quotes :D

[markabilly]

i think that luca and benei are both right

[ioan]

I wonder how long Bernie will have to lick LDM's boots after his stupid comments. He knows very well that if Ferrari decide to play with the breakaway series next time it happens he's F-ed.

[gloomyDAY]

I wonder how long Bernie will have to lick LDM's boots after his stupid comments. He knows very well that if Ferrari decide to play with the breakaway series next time it happens he's F-ed.Good call. They were probably on the phone chatting about a 'miscommunication' after Bernie made those comments. Yeah, they're funny, but quite embarrassing for Luca to read in his morning newspaper.

[gloomyDAY]

I have to agree with Luca's comments:


On Sunday in front of the TV I felt like I was at Disneyworld. Let's hope that at Singapore in 2009 they'll do fashion catwalks, Disney parades, or something else. But certainly not F1. If this is the future of racing, we are sorted... I didn't like Valencia, we'll make ourselves be heardWhat do you think of that Bernie?

[ioan]

And let's not forget that there is still no new Concorde Agreement (you know the one about the commercial part of the "circus")!
So Bernie better behave, cause Ferrari can make his life a misery very very easily.

[Valve Bounce]

I have to be realistic here; Ferrari have got to clean up their act in the pit lanes, as well as on the track. Right now, they are just flushing easy wins and points down the toilet.

They need someone like Todt and Brawn to read the entire team the riot act, and for the team to refocus on the job at hand.

It is difficult to deny that Ferrari have the goods to win both championships this year, but so far the goods seem to be falling off the back of the truck.

[Valve Bounce]

And let's not forget that there is still no new Concorde Agreement (you know the one about the commercial part of the "circus")!
So Bernie better behave, cause Ferrari can make his life a misery very very easily.

Let's be honest here, ioan: bloody Bernie has so much money already that if he decides to walk away from F1 right now, he won't have enough time to count all his money before his appointment with St Peter.

[Hondo]

I have to be realistic here; Ferrari have got to clean up their act in the pit lanes, as well as on the track. Right now, they are just flushing easy wins and points down the toilet.

They need someone like Todt and Brawn to read the entire team the riot act, and for the team to refocus on the job at hand.

It is difficult to deny that Ferrari have the goods to win both championships this year, but so far the goods seem to be falling off the back of the truck.

I dare say they have plenty of people reading them riot acts. What they need is someone to step up and lead by example and respect.

[ArrowsFA1]

I wonder how long Bernie will have to lick LDM's boots after his stupid comments.
Well, Luca calls one of Bernie's events a circus, so Bernie calls Luca's team clowns :laugh: I think they're even :p :

[Azumanga Davo]

Ah, the sharp tongue of Mr E has claimed yet another victim. Always good for a quote if nothing else. :D

[PolePosition_1]

Whilst I agree with Luca with his comments with regards to the current SC rules. I think he had his timing slightly wrong, because of the poor results Ferrari had at Singapore.

Plus I found it slightly harsh to only name Singapore, many races this year (conventional ones) have been effected by the SC rules ending in strange results.

And with regards to Bernie, thats why I like the guy, the man breaths character. And F1 needs character.

[F1boat]

And let's not forget that there is still no new Concorde Agreement (you know the one about the commercial part of the "circus")!
So Bernie better behave, cause Ferrari can make his life a misery very very easily.

And who will control this new series, after Ferrari betrayed it once? The current administration which governs F1 is benevolent to Ferrari and defends them against McLaren's questionable tactics. If McLaren are in stronger position in a future series... many teams feel that FIA is helping Ferrari - not only McLaren, but also Renault, BMW, Williams...
Luca can at least respect the hard work of Singapore people, they are not guilty that his team is tragic in street races.

[ioan]

Let's be honest here, ioan: bloody Bernie has so much money already that if he decides to walk away from F1 right now, he won't have enough time to count all his money before his appointment with St Peter.

Yeah, but what if he has to walk away because he's got no more F1, or because they throw him out of it?
I bet he wouldn't be such a happy man anymore, with all his money reputation is now more valuable.

[ioan]

And who will control this new series, after Ferrari betrayed it once? The current administration which governs F1 is benevolent to Ferrari and defends them against McLaren's questionable tactics. If McLaren are in stronger position in a future series... many teams feel that FIA is helping Ferrari - not only McLaren, but also Renault, BMW, Williams...
Luca can at least respect the hard work of Singapore people, they are not guilty that his team is tragic in street races.

IF Ferrari decides to leave their strong position in F1 and join a runaway series than you might bet that they will not go there if McLaren would be holding a stronger position, it's either equal for everyone or bust for everyone.

[ioan]

Well, Luca calls one of Bernie's events a circus, so Bernie calls Luca's team clowns :laugh: I think they're even :p :

Really?
Did you ask yourself about who would be wiling to watch the Hamy series if Ferrari decide they don't want to be part of a circus anymore?

I'm not sure they are even at all, that's why Bernie has certainly been doing the boot licking since his last comments. Or otherwise he might have to pay for it when it comes to signing the new Concorde Agreement, cause the "clowns" will be laughing at him.

[SGWilko]

Really?
Did you ask yourself about who would be wiling to watch the Hamy series if Ferrari decide they don't want to be part of a circus anymore?

I'm not sure they are even at all, that's why Bernie has certainly been doing the boot licking since his last comments. Or otherwise he might have to pay for it when it comes to signing the new Concorde Agreement, cause the "clowns" will be laughing at him.

Well, quite a few of fans of F1 are, I shouldn't doubt, quite fed up of how it has become the 'red cars series'. ;)

[ioan]

Well, quite a few of fans of F1 are, I shouldn't doubt, quite fed up of how it has become the 'red cars series'. ;)

Not my case! :D

[Knock-on]

IF Ferrari decides to leave their strong position in F1 and join a runaway series than you might bet that they will not go there if McLaren would be holding a stronger position, it's either equal for everyone or bust for everyone.

Where do I sign. The pinnacle of motoracing has been dying for the series you describe!!

:laugh:

[ioan]

Where do I sign. The pinnacle of motoracing has been dying for the series you describe!!

:laugh:

Send a letter to Bernie, asking him to retire, for the good of the sport. he might also take max with him, now that they are "friends" again!

And don't forget to sign it! ;)

[jas123f1]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1068689/Ferrari-clowns-handed-Lewis-title--Ecclestone-pours-scorn-Singapore-fiasco.html

Bernie is just peaking b*** s*** because he really has nothing to say.

Luca di Montezemolo was speaking seriously of Singapore track and its lack of different kind of capacity as a F1 track.

Honestly - the track is not as a F1 track would be.. and then can Bernie say what he want.. it’s up to him ..

The track is as a long bumpy corridor a fence on both side, almost impossible to get past on, even a much slower car can keep you behind a long time.. and there it takes too long time to take away a crashed car from the track.. The pit line is far too narrow and so on …

And what has Bernie to say??

Speak b*** s*** about Ferrari because Montezemolo has have “an impudence” to say how it is.. Bernie is getting old and can go home .. imo..

[Knock-on]

Send a letter to Bernie, asking him to retire, for the good of the sport. he might also take max with him, now that they are "friends" again!

And don't forget to sign it! ;)

For once I agree with you that with Max and Bernie gone, we might get a fair series.

Or perhaps that's just blind hope ;)

[ioan]

Or perhaps that's just blind hope ;)

I think that might be the case. Sadly.

[yodasarmpit]

I thought it was quite a funny comeback from the little man.
Made me chuckle.

[ArrowsFA1]

Really?
Did you ask yourself about who would be wiling to watch...if Ferrari decide they don't want to be part of a circus anymore?
Not sure quite how we got talking about Ferrari leaving but I can't see that happening any time soon. All this talk about Ferrari being the most important team in F1, and without them blah, blah, blah...

Ferrari need F1. Enzo built road cars to fund racing; they were a means to an end, not the end itself. Sure, the company has expanded and is very different to what it was but F1 is still at the heart of Ferrari and without it they're not the same company.

A1GP wont provide them with the same kudos that's for sure :p

Ferrari wont walk away. They need F1 far more than they'll ever let on. Enzo Ferrari stomped his feet from time to time and threatened to walk away, but never did and while his company has changed beyond recognition Luca can bluster nearly as well as "the Commendatore".

[truefan72]

I wonder how long Bernie will have to lick LDM's boots after his stupid comments. He knows very well that if Ferrari decide to play with the breakaway series next time it happens he's F-ed.

so let me get this straight

an f1 team principle can call an entire race weekend a circus, and castigate a track and the novelty, as well as the stagecraft of the City and FIA and that's ok with you.

Bernie responds to those comments and you immediately feel offended, call them stupid and threaten to take your toys to another sandlot..The sweet irony.

So you think Ferrari deserve to be above rebuke and have the right to say and offend anybody they like because they are Ferrari?
LOL what am I saying ...of course you think so.

BTW next LdM decided to open his mouth and lay out a verbal jab, he should make sure he doesn't leaver his chin exposed for an upper cut right back at him.

Apropo response to Ldm's comments.

[truefan72]

IF Ferrari decides to leave their strong position in F1 and join a runaway series than you might bet that they will not go there if McLaren would be holding a stronger position, it's either equal for everyone or bust for everyone.

which is what exist now in F1 right?
laughable

[F1boat]

IF Ferrari decides to leave their strong position in F1 and join a runaway series than you might bet that they will not go there if McLaren would be holding a stronger position, it's either equal for everyone or bust for everyone.

And where will they go then? Equal for everyone, means equal between Ferrari and a lot of their old enemies.
Look, I like Ferrari - they are a great team with great history and IMO, great drivers. But they were very pathetic in Singapore and in Valencia, despite the win and with these comments LdM looked like the fox for the story with the sour grapes. His arrogant comment demanded arrogant response.
Bernie owned him with it and I am happy. That's all.

[ioan]

Not sure quite how we got talking about Ferrari leaving but I can't see that happening any time soon. All this talk about Ferrari being the most important team in F1, and without them blah, blah, blah...

Ferrari need F1. Enzo built road cars to fund racing; they were a means to an end, not the end itself. Sure, the company has expanded and is very different to what it was but F1 is still at the heart of Ferrari and without it they're not the same company.

A1GP wont provide them with the same kudos that's for sure :p

Ferrari wont walk away. They need F1 far more than they'll ever let on. Enzo Ferrari stomped his feet from time to time and threatened to walk away, but never did and while his company has changed beyond recognition Luca can bluster nearly as well as "the Commendatore".

Interesting, you say the company and it's operation changed but that means nothing.

Ferrari were in f1 because that was seen as the top technological motor racing form.
As soon as that will not be the case anymore, and clearly according to LDM this is what is happening, Ferrari will leave to a series that will be acknowledged to be technically better. I have no doubts about that.

Bernie needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs him, that is as sure as it gets. If only for not losing the largest F1 fan base around.

[ioan]

And where will they go then? Equal for everyone, means equal between Ferrari and a lot of their old enemies.
Look, I like Ferrari - they are a great team with great history and IMO, great drivers. But they were very pathetic in Singapore and in Valencia, despite the win and with these comments LdM looked like the fox for the story with the sour grapes. His arrogant comment demanded arrogant response.
Bernie owned him with it and I am happy. That's all.

Ferrari were not pathetic in Valencia (don't know where did you find this idea).
And given that LDM criticize a track where they won, and not only the track where they lost (and not because they were slower than others, not at all) give objectivity to his words.
I know you are an Alonso fan, and I myself was happy to see him win, but that doesn't mean that you have to say LDM's comment was arrogant as long as it wasn't.
BTW what exactly was arrogant in his comments? I'd like to know, really.

[ioan]

which is what exist now in F1 right?
laughable

:?: :confused: :rolleyes:

[Sleeper]

Interesting, you say the company and it's operation changed but that means nothing.

Ferrari were in f1 because that was seen as the top technological motor racing form.
As soon as that will not be the case anymore, and clearly according to LDM this is what is happening, Ferrari will leave to a series that will be acknowledged to be technically better. I have no doubts about that.

Bernie needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs him, that is as sure as it gets. If only for not losing the largest F1 fan base around.
Considering their road car devision isnt the most financially secure company going and that their is no other form of motor sport, besides NASCAR, with the profile to even remotely get close to that of F1, then its clear that the only real option for them is to stay put.

Luca hs been about the only person in the paddock that I've heard complaining about Singapour, probably just sour grapes.

[F1boat]

Ferrari were not pathetic in Valencia (don't know where did you find this idea).
And given that LDM criticize a track where they won, and not only the track where they lost (and not because they were slower than others, not at all) give objectivity to his words.
I know you are an Alonso fan, and I myself was happy to see him win, but that doesn't mean that you have to say LDM's comment was arrogant as long as it wasn't.
BTW what exactly was arrogant in his comments? I'd like to know, really.

In Valencia Ferrari again had big trouble in pit and then Kimi ended with a broken engine, so that's why they looked stupid. The comments are arrogant, because they are entirely disrespectful. Luca has the right to like or not like the race. Frank and Ron liked it, as well as Jackie, Luca didn't. That's OK. But to call the race names like "circus" and "humiliation" is very rude and deserved the answer which Bernie gave.

[ioan]

Considering their road car devision isnt the most financially secure company going ...

That's new to me, given that they were a highly profitable business for the last few years at least (and we are talking about 10 years or so).



...and that their is no other form of motor sport, besides NASCAR, with the profile to even remotely get close to that of F1, then its clear that the only real option for them is to stay put.

What?
Are you comparing Nascar technology to F1 or ALMS/Le Mans technology?

I tell you what, let's see what happens when the new Concorde Agreement will be on the table and the teams will ask for more revenue in order to sign it. What would Bernie do if Ferrari asks for double the money they get now, otherwise there will be no more scarlet "clowns" for Bernie's circus.

[ioan]

In Valencia Ferrari again had big trouble in pit and then Kimi ended with a broken engine, so that's why they looked stupid. The comments are arrogant, because they are entirely disrespectful. Luca has the right to like or not like the race. Frank and Ron liked it, as well as Jackie, Luca didn't. That's OK. But to call the race names like "circus" and "humiliation" is very rude and deserved the answer which Bernie gave.

:laugh:
So if someone isn't going with the main current than he/she is arrogant?
That's all I needed to hear. :rolleyes:

[mstillhere]

Considering their road car devision isnt the most financially secure company

I think you need to do some home work :) :)

[Valve Bounce]

I'm waiting for this thread to get to page 3 so that I can put my post near the top of the page. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

This thread has been well and trulli derailed, with many arguments stemming from an off the cuff remark by Luca and a supremely funny reply by Bernie.

But there are many elements in this thread that justify an in depth analysis/look.

1. The safety car issue has been discussed many times before, and I have disagreed with its usage. It is being used to clear debris/broken cars from the track to avoid punctures and further damage/crashes by cars.
My answer is an electronic red flag system around the entire track operated in conjunction with flashing red lights that would slow cars down and then control their speed and maintain the gap between the cars.

2. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that no matter how much the principals of Ferrari and McLaren fight and others like Frank and Flav might agree or disagree with, if a breakaway series is formed, all four would be part of it because they want to race against each other; the other teams will follow suit because they also want to race against these 4 teams.

3. Ferrari will always sell, no matter whether they race in F1 or not. If Lambo can sell their cars after their disastrous involvement in F1, Porsche after they have already pulled out, the desire to own and drive a Ferrari on a road will remain long after I've met St Peter.

4. If Bernie leaves F1, God help us because he will become the most vocal sniper about anything in F1 that goes wrong. True, Bernie has pocketed zillions from F1, but he has also made it possible for F1 participants to gain lotsa dough towards F1. Sure, I want him gone, and I would love to see a lot more of the TV money poured back into the teams, and if anyone can find a solution, I'll happily go along with it.

That just about sums up my views regarding many of the fine points discussed in this thread.

[Hawkmoon]

Both Di Montezemolo and Ecclestone are right. Singapore is a joke and if people weren't literally dazzled by the lights I think they'd admit that the prospects of good racing in Singapore aren't good. And Bernie's right because Ferrari performed like a bunch of clowns in their efforts to gift wrap the championships to McLaren.

Oh, and the Ferrari/F1 relationship is a symbiotic one and neither party will benefit from the abscence of the other.

[F1boat]

:laugh:
So if someone isn't going with the main current than he/she is arrogant?
That's all I needed to hear. :rolleyes:

No, someone, who is using "names" to defend his opinion is arrogant. What I fail to see, ioan, is who you are angered by Bernie's answer. Is Luca di only one who can insult people and races?

[ioan]

No, someone, who is using "names" to defend his opinion is arrogant. What I fail to see, ioan, is who you are angered by Bernie's answer. Is Luca di only one who can insult people and races?

Where did LDM insult other people?

Insulting a race is a new concept to me. I bet the race feels very offended right now, with all it's 90 degree turns.

[PolePosition_1]

Bernie is just peaking b*** s*** because he really has nothing to say.

Luca di Montezemolo was speaking seriously of Singapore track and its lack of different kind of capacity as a F1 track.

Honestly - the track is not as a F1 track would be.. and then can Bernie say what he want.. it’s up to him ..

The track is as a long bumpy corridor a fence on both side, almost impossible to get past on, even a much slower car can keep you behind a long time.. and there it takes too long time to take away a crashed car from the track.. The pit line is far too narrow and so on …

And what has Bernie to say??

Speak b*** s*** about Ferrari because Montezemolo has have “an impudence” to say how it is.. Bernie is getting old and can go home .. imo..

All due respect, but who are you to say what an F1 track should or should not be?

What are you basing Singapore not being a proper F1 track on? Tradition? If so, drivers use to die on a frequent basis in the past, thats tradition also, should this continue?

Its total bull, F1 evolves, as does everything in life. Singapore, is a first of its kind in F1, it shows F1 is expanding, it was a huge success for F1, with the only people being agaisnt it so far (from what I've seen) is the old time F1 fans who moan about any change, and blinded Ferrari fans (who no doubt will accept it if Ferrari win next year).

You describe it as "The track is as a long bumpy corridor a fence on both side, almost impossible to get past on, even a much slower car can keep you behind a long time.. and there it takes too long time to take away a crashed car from the track.. The pit line is far too narrow and so on … ".

Well then I can presume you want Monaco off the calender?

Bernie acknowledges the SC rules are messed up, but its not his job to sort that out, so what can he say about them. The SC rules have messed up race orders in so called traditional circuits such as Australia, Germany and Canada too this year. Singapore is not alone in this, the SC is part of F1. The current rules do indeed change the order, but so did they in the past as well.

[ArrowsFA1]

Bernie needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs him, that is as sure as it gets. If only for not losing the largest F1 fan base around.
So are you saying that Ferrari fans are only interested in following Ferrari and not F1? If that's the case (and I'm not sure that's what you're saying) why don't all the Ferrari fans move over to Ferrari's one-make single-seater series (A1GP)? If it's Ferrari the fans are interested in why doesn't that happen?

[PolePosition_1]

:laugh:
So if someone isn't going with the main current than he/she is arrogant?
That's all I needed to hear. :rolleyes:

I think he is just saying, there's a difference between saying he did not like the track with an explanation. And going all out and calling it a circus. They both do the same thing, in saying they don't like it, but it doesn't have to be said in a way which is disrespectful.

Personally, whilst I agree with what Luca says with regards to the SC rules, I think his timing was slightly mis-placed, as is apparent with the calls of sour grapes, and his words poorly choosen. At end of the day, lots of money, pride and effort has gone into making this track, and to dismiss it as a circus, I know if I'd been part of the project, I would take offence to it.

Say for example, you have a guest in your house, a house you've worked hard on making it as comfortable to nice for you. Surely you see difference on the guest saying they don't like you house because they're not keen on the furniture, and guest saying your house is a circus and you should be humiliated by it. Do you see a difference between the two?

That said, I highly doubt he thought carefully for his wording, just heat of the moment stuff, and in that respect, everyone does stuff like this, and I like it, though it can be controversial, it shows character. And I like to see character in F1, whether I agree with it or not.

[ioan]

All due respect, but who are you to say what an F1 track should or should not be?

An F1 fan, just like you? Or maybe an even more knowledgeable one? Who knows.

[start of rant] Who are you to question his right to do so? :rolleyes:

And with all due respect, who is LDM to dare question a F1 race track? Oh he's the Ferrari president? So what? PolePosition_1 knows way better than any ferrari president or any other F1 fan. :rolleyes: [end of rant]

[ioan]

I think he is just saying, there's a difference between saying he did not like the track with an explanation. And going all out and calling it a circus. They both do the same thing, in saying they don't like it, but it doesn't have to be said in a way which is disrespectful.

There was nothing disrespectful in LDM's comments ( or did I miss the part where he was calling someone names?) and he offered his view of why he thought so. Not his problem that you only read what you like.

[ioan]

So are you saying that Ferrari fans are only interested in following Ferrari and not F1? If that's the case (and I'm not sure that's what you're saying) why don't all the Ferrari fans move over to Ferrari's one-make single-seater series (A1GP)? If it's Ferrari the fans are interested in why doesn't that happen?

If Ferrari quit F1 than I would certainly not stay around watching Ron's cheaters, if this is what you wanted to know.
I'll move along and watch whatever series Ferrari will race in.

[PolePosition_1]

An F1 fan, just like you? Or maybe an even more knowledgeable one? Who knows.

[start of rant] Who are you to question his right to do so? :rolleyes:

And with all due respect, who is LDM to dare question a F1 race track? Oh he's the Ferrari president? So what? PolePosition_1 knows way better than any ferrari president or any other F1 fan. :rolleyes: [end of rant]

I'm not saying I've got the right to say what an F1 track should be like or not. I'm just pointing out neither has he/she.

I'd put a pretty safe bet on that user being all for Monaco, yet has named the exact characteristics of Monaco for disliking Singapore.

I'll reserve full judgement when user has confirmed thoughts on Monaco.

I have a right to question his judgement, this is a forum.

Maybe I was slightly hasty in my approach to his/her post, if I was apologises, but I'm merely trying to get an understanding the his/her thoughts behind Singapore not being an F1 track.

And Ioan, if you want to use status in the F1 world as to who is right or wrong, then I presume Bernie calling Ferrari clowns must be correct :rolleyes:

If anything, I'd say my thoughts on Singapore itself are going to be more objective, because I don't have any interests apart from F1, while LDM obviously has a close attachment to Ferrari, so his opinion on the race itself is unlikely to be the voice of objectivity.

[PolePosition_1]

There was nothing disrespectful in LDM's comments ( or did I miss the part where he was calling someone names?) and he offered his view of why he thought so. Not his problem that you only read what you like.

So just to confirm (as I tend to misunderstand you), you don't think the organisers of the race would be offended that the work they've put in within the past 12 month producing a final result, which was described as humiliating to F1 and a circus?

[ArrowsFA1]

I'll move along and watch whatever series Ferrari will race in.
So why aren't you a big fan of A1GP? (I only ask given that you rarely, if ever, post in the A1GP forum)

I'm only raising these questions with you as, contrary to the bluster, it seems you're as much an F1 fan as a Ferrari fan.

As Hawkmoon said the Ferrari/F1 relationship is a symbiotic one and neither party will benefit from the abscence of the other.

[jas123f1]

And who will control this new series, after Ferrari betrayed it once? The current administration which governs F1 is benevolent to Ferrari and defends them against McLaren's questionable tactics. If McLaren are in stronger position in a future series... many teams feel that FIA is helping Ferrari - not only McLaren, but also Renault, BMW, Williams...
Luca can at least respect the hard work of Singapore people, they are not guilty that his team is tragic in street races.

Maybe You are thinking in that way - but every one knows that it's only rumours and imaginations - FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) is a big organisation and it’s not possible that they are favouring one team. Last year when it was discovered that McLaren used Ferrari technology FIA did not exclude them from series – ok 100 million fine is also hard but however not that serious. If McLaren after that are would be thinking (as you say) that FIA is favouring Ferrari they really would be blind.

If Bernie (the boss of this circus) start to speak b*** s*** about one team (and World Champions) only because they are criticising an inferior track and some FIA rules it’s really showing that he’s NOT right man in right place. Who like to be in a circus if “circus manager” continuo his childishness.. This man are speaking who HE want to win ?! and what HE are thinking of different drivers ?! and now he can't take any criticism - how founded on facts it is ..

Singapore is not any F1 track .. in fact - it’s a long bumpy corridor.. SC rules ARE stupid … and therefore it’s not motorsport any more it’s more like a circus ..

It is circus we like to have ? Should F1 be changed to some kind of gladiator game?

However I don’t want it – I still like F1 as pinnacle of motorsport with or without Bernie..

Bernie GO HOME.- enough is enough ..

[PolePosition_1]

Maybe You are thinking in that way - but every one knows that it's only rumours and imaginations - FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) is a big organisation and it’s not possible that they are favouring one team. Last year when it was discovered that McLaren used Ferrari technology FIA did not exclude them from series – ok 100 million fine is also hard but however not that serious. If McLaren after that are would be thinking (as you say) that FIA is favouring Ferrari they really would be blind.

If Bernie (the boss of this circus) start to speak b*** s*** about one team (and World Champions) only because they are criticising an inferior track and some FIA rules it’s really showing that he’s NOT right man in right place. Who like to be in a circus if “circus manager” continuo his childishness.. This man are speaking who HE want to win ?! and what HE are thinking of different drivers ?! and now he can't take any criticism - how founded on facts it is ..

Singapore is not any F1 track .. in fact - it’s a long bumpy corridor.. SC rules ARE stupid … and therefore it’s not motorsport any more it’s more like a circus ..

It is circus we like to have ? Should F1 be changed to some kind of gladiator game?

However I don’t want it – I still like F1 as pinnacle of motorsport with or without Bernie..

Bernie GO HOME.- enough is enough ..


It wasn't proven McLaren used Ferrari IP to their advantage. They just had possession of it. Same as Renault, who had McLaren data, and were let off.

McLaren's penalty was based on their use of knowledge gained from direct contact between NS and MC, which is fragile at the best of times, considering all teams have sources within eachother.

I'd say if anything, the penalty for spygate against McLaren further enforces the perception that the FIA and Stewarding system favours Ferrari over any other teams.

With regards to Singapore, whats your opinion on Monaco?

[jas123f1]

It wasn't proven McLaren used Ferrari IP to their advantage. They just had possession of it. Same as Renault, who had McLaren data, and were let off.

McLaren's penalty was based on their use of knowledge gained from direct contact between NS and MC, which is fragile at the best of times, considering all teams have sources within eachother.

I'd say if anything, the penalty for spygate against McLaren further enforces the perception that the FIA and Stewarding system favours Ferrari over any other teams.

With regards to Singapore, whats your opinion on Monaco?

It's not even NECESSARY to prove how they used the Ferrari technology.

Because as soon they have it in their computers THEY HAVE USED IT and because several McLaren employer did know about that Ferrari technology was in their computers (incl. the chief designer) you can't any more say "they didn't use it".. and still in beginning of this season McLaren was forced to change some details in their car which was "too similar" with Ferrari .. anf Ron actually apologized that .. at last..

But that’s enough of that.. case closed ..for me

:)

[PolePosition_1]

It's not even NECESSARY to prove how they used the Ferrari technology.

Because as soon they have it in their computers THEY HAVE USED IT and because several McLaren employer did know about that Ferrari technology was in their computers (incl. the chief designer) you can't any more say "they didn't use it".. and still in beginning of this season McLaren was forced to change some details in their car which was "too similar" with Ferrari .. anf Ron actually apologized that .. at last..

But that’s enough of that.. case closed ..for me

:)

Well, McLaren data was found on the Renault computer systems. But it wasn't proven they used it, so no punishment.

The FIA have always taken a precedent where if you can't prove its been used, no penalty.

And yes, they had to make changes, but was that because it was just way they worked, or coincidence it had similarities to Ferrari? I'd put a large wager on fact McLaren wouldn't risk purposely copying Ferrari design.

But as you say, its a whole different topic which can be debated till the end of days.

So back to topic, whats your opinion on the Monaco GP?

[ArrowsFA1]

It's not even NECESSARY to prove how they used the Ferrari technology.

Because as soon they have it in their computers THEY HAVE USED IT and because several McLaren employer did know about that Ferrari technology was in their computers
Switch things around a little:

It's not even NECESSARY to prove how they used the McLaren technology.

Because as soon they have it in their computers THEY HAVE USED IT and because several Renault employer did know about that McLaren technology was in their computers.

:p

[ArrowsFA1]

So back to topic, whats your opinion on the Monaco GP?
Jewel in the Crown :s mokin:

Challenging for the drivers. Spectacular location. History. Tradition.

[Sleeper]

What?
Are you comparing Nascar technology to F1 or ALMS/Le Mans technology?

I tell you what, let's see what happens when the new Concorde Agreement will be on the table and the teams will ask for more revenue in order to sign it. What would Bernie do if Ferrari asks for double the money they get now, otherwise there will be no more scarlet "clowns" for Bernie's circus.

I never mentioned technology, I said profile. I cant see Ferrari jumping ship from F1 for the sake of having development freedom when they are likely to loose most/all of their current sponsors and get next to nothing in TV revenue.

As to the concord agreement, Bernie cant give the teams any more of the money than the 50 odd % that they currently get because CVC needs the rest to pay off the loans that let them buy the sport in the first place. The last thing we need at the moment is the banks to take over the running of the sport, again, in the current economic climate.

[Valve Bounce]

So are you saying that Ferrari fans are only interested in following Ferrari and not F1? If that's the case (and I'm not sure that's what you're saying) why don't all the Ferrari fans move over to Ferrari's one-make single-seater series (A1GP)? If it's Ferrari the fans are interested in why doesn't that happen?

I have to point out here that many Ferrari fans are only interested in F1; if Ferrari don't look like winning at Monza or are out through prangs or mechanical failure, there is an exodus from Monza long before the end of the race. The guy with whom I watched the Oz GP last year on TV at Bologna was only interested in the race as long as Ferrari won. He couldn't care less who finished anywhere else in the race.

Basically the Ferrari fans want to see Ferrari beat any other car in F1.

[F1boat]

Where did LDM insult other people?



The wonderful people who made this most glamorous race possible. They are the insulted ones.

[F1boat]

Maybe You are thinking in that way - but every one knows that it's only rumours and imaginations - FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) is a big organisation and it’s not possible that they are favouring one team. Last year when it was discovered that McLaren used Ferrari technology FIA did not exclude them from series – ok 100 million fine is also hard but however not that serious. If McLaren after that are would be thinking (as you say) that FIA is favouring Ferrari they really would be blind.

If Bernie (the boss of this circus) start to speak b*** s*** about one team (and World Champions) only because they are criticising an inferior track and some FIA rules it’s really showing that he’s NOT right man in right place. Who like to be in a circus if “circus manager” continuo his childishness.. This man are speaking who HE want to win ?! and what HE are thinking of different drivers ?! and now he can't take any criticism - how founded on facts it is ..

Singapore is not any F1 track .. in fact - it’s a long bumpy corridor.. SC rules ARE stupid … and therefore it’s not motorsport any more it’s more like a circus ..

It is circus we like to have ? Should F1 be changed to some kind of gladiator game?

However I don’t want it – I still like F1 as pinnacle of motorsport with or without Bernie..

Bernie GO HOME.- enough is enough ..

jas, I am no thinking that FIA favoures Ferrari 100%. But Renault, McLaren Mercedes, BMW and possibly Williams think that way because of the cxhanges of the tyre rule in late 2003, last year's Macca banning, 2006 saga about whatever devices Renault were using prior to Hockenheim, this season's Spa race. Whether this is true or not is irrelevant. If F1 dies and is replaced by a CART-like organization lead by all teams and all these teams are equal, Ferraru may face their old rivals allied against them. This can't happen now. So they won't quit, I assure you. They have nowehere else to go, if not GPWC. Indy Car is not what it once was. The Le Mans series have their great fans, but it is not a mainstream sport. NASCAR is popular, but I can't imagine Ferrari to go there. What a great publicity it will be, to see an Enzo beaten by Chevy Impala!
They will stay in F1. They have NOTHING to threaten Bernie, nothing at all. Now lets' get to this about Bernie insulting. LdM is the one who insulted the race and thus it's oganizers. He got what he deserved. Bernie showed that he is the man who protects the races and the people who made them, when the job is well done. I admire him for the courage,
About your opinion of Singapore, it is only that - an opinion. Singapore was the best race this season - that's my opinion. I like such glamorous and beautiful cicuits - Monte Carlo, Valencia, Singapore. I have the right to watch them, just as you can watch Spa, Monza... F1 has different tracks. It is the pinnacle of motorsports. And who can win or all type of cicuits should be the champion.

[F1boat]

Jewel in the Crown :s mokin:

Challenging for the drivers. Spectacular location. History. Tradition.

I agree. But with time I think that Singapore can become similar legend.

[ioan]

So why aren't you a big fan of A1GP? (I only ask given that you rarely, if ever, post in the A1GP forum)

Maybe because I don't get A1GP broadcast around here? How should I comment about something I don't watch?



I'm only raising these questions with you as, contrary to the bluster, it seems you're as much an F1 fan as a Ferrari fan.

I like(d) F1 for the technology involved. But if they continue pushing in the direction of it becoming a show a la NASCAR, than there will be nothing left to watch for me.
And beside Ferrari I only support very few other drivers in F1.



As Hawkmoon said the Ferrari/F1 relationship is a symbiotic one and neither party will benefit from the abscence of the other.

I would say that the relation was a symbiotic one back in the early days when They started as a new and unknown brand. They needed to get their name known and racing has always been the way to go for car manufacturers.

But now, when they are a very well established a and profitable business they don't need F1 anymore. Especially if they can't showcase their technical superiority anymore, because of the series being dumbed down.

As other said, look at Porsche, they did the same to establish themselves, and now they mostly (99%) have privateer entries again using mostly declinations of their road cars, the ALMS LMP2 cars being the only exception.
The same for Audi.

[ioan]

I never mentioned technology, I said profile. I cant see Ferrari jumping ship from F1 for the sake of having development freedom when they are likely to loose most/all of their current sponsors and get next to nothing in TV revenue.

Do you think that Ferrari are living from those TV revenues?
And what for would Ferrari need sponsors and TV revenues if they decided to leave F1? They use all that money and more to develop and produce the F1 cars, not to finance their road car business. :rolleyes:



As to the concord agreement, Bernie cant give the teams any more of the money than the 50 odd % that they currently get because CVC needs the rest to pay off the loans that let them buy the sport in the first place. The last thing we need at the moment is the banks to take over the running of the sport, again, in the current economic climate.

The bank taking over the running of the sport? What bank? There will be no more private banks in a few weeks given the rate they are floundering at this very moment.

[ioan]

I agree. But with time I think that Singapore can become similar legend.

Not a chance.

[ioan]

The wonderful people who made this most glamorous race possible. They are the insulted ones.

The people who made this possible are the people of Singapore, it is with their tax money that this aberration was paid, and as far as I know they aren't happy at all to pay that price and don't like the idea to do it again and again for many years to come.

[Knock-on]

The people who made this possible are the people of Singapore, it is with their tax money that this aberration was paid, and as far as I know they aren't happy at all to pay that price and don't like the idea to do it again and again for many years to come.

Really?

From what I heard and saw, the Singaporean people were behind the GP and embraced it willingly. The race was well supported and looked a great success.

Then we have these insults from Luca :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Really?

From what I heard and saw, the Singaporean people were behind the GP and embraced it willingly. The race was well supported and looked a great success.

Then we have these insults from Luca :rolleyes:

I read on other forums comments from members from Singapore who are complaining that the Government increased all their bills now that the race is over.

I bet they are happy to pay 20% more electricity bills now just for some Europeans to be happy watching a floodlit night race! :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

I read on other forums comments from members from Singapore who are complaining that the Government increased all their bills now that the race is over.

I bet they are happy to pay 20% more electricity bills now just for some Europeans to be happy watching a floodlit night race! :rolleyes:
Do you have a source for this claim that electricity bills are to rise 20% to cover the cost of lighting the race (from diesel generators paid for by the race organisers, by the way)?

[Mark]

Do you have a source for this claim that electricity bills are to rise 20% to cover the cost of lighting the race (from diesel generators paid for by the race organisers, by the way)?

But the organisers were the Singapore government?

[Dave B]

But the organisers were the Singapore government?
Touché!

I can well believe that electricity bills have risen by 20% in Singapore: they have in many countries.

What I cannot believe is that the cost of lighting one race for three days is the cause, no matter how bright and numerous the bulbs were.

[Dave B]

Don't worry about the source, I've found this (my highlighting):



Electricity tariffs will go up by 4.98% or by 1.19 cents per kilo watt per hour (kWh) for all households from the next quarter, beginning July 1 [2008]. Singapore Power said the hike is due to higher electricity costs arising from higher fuel prices. The electricity tariff is revised every quarter. Coming at the back of rising inflation and an overall increase in the cost of living, not everyone is taking the news well - low-income families are expected to be hardest hit. And for motorists, pump prices have gone up again - petrol prices are up 5 cents a litre and 10 cents for diesel, the 13th consecutive increase since last July.

- There's really no surprise here, as Singapore electricity prices are linked to natural gas prices since that's where 80% of our electricity comes from, the pricing of that natural gas is currently in turn linked to fuel oil prices, which is in turn linked to world crude oil prices. And crude oil prices have been setting records in recent months, as we all know.

With this increase, Singapore domestic household electricity tariffs will be going up from 23.88 to 25.07 cents per KWh. That's an increase of 22.17% year-on-year, and a staggering 56.10% in 3 years. Just as I maintain that we haven't seen anything yet in crude oil prices and that we are going to $150, $180, $200 and beyond, we haven't seen anything yet in electricity prices. We are going to 30, 40, 50 cents per KWh and beyond.

Source: http://www.post1.net/lowem/entry/singapore_electricity_rates_to_increase_4_98_from_ jul_2008


So nothing to do with the race.

[Valve Bounce]

Jest a thought, Dave: have you checked the price of crude lately?

[Dave B]

Jest a thought, Dave: have you checked the price of crude lately?

Yes, it's dropped a lot recently. Who knows, Singapore might enjoy a reduction in electricity prices next quarter, although I'm not privvy to the level of hedging by the generating companies.


The increase in the electricity tariff has nothing to do with the recent Formula One event. The F1 organisers brought in their own generators and equipment for the race. The electricity tariff was not used to pay for the costs of lighting the F1 circuit.

Jenny Teo (Ms)
Director, Corporate Communications
Energy Market Authority (EMA)
http://wildsingaporenews.blogspot.com/2008/10/electricity-price-hike-in-singapore.html

[ioan]

You mention 4.98%, the guy on the other forum said it was 20%, there is still a 15% difference.

[ioan]

4,98% it's OK, only that the Singaporean guy mentioned it was a 20% raise, from september to october, and all this while the oil prices went down by quite a margin.

[PolePosition_1]

You mention 4.98%, the guy on the other forum said it was 20%, there is still a 15% difference.

Has this guy on the forum got a source?

[truefan72]

Do you have a source for this claim that electricity bills are to rise 20% to cover the cost of lighting the race (from diesel generators paid for by the race organisers, by the way)?


yep, and even in soccer crazy Italy, there are italians there upset with games being played on sunday as well as all the monet thrown around the league for stadiums etc.

There will always be detractors. I think most folks in Singapore are/were more than proud of their achievement. It certainly makes me consider going there for the race next year!

Maybe on the A380 if they add that plane to their US routes. Thast would be some trip.

[ioan]

Has this guy on the forum got a source?

Yeah, the bill he has to pay! What kind of friggin question was that?

[Dave B]

Yeah, the bill he has to pay! What kind of friggin question was that?
As I've said, nobody's doubting that his electricity bill has increased. He's just wrong about the reason.

[truefan72]

As I've said, nobody's doubting that his electricity bill has increased. He's just wrong about the reason.

yep

[PolePosition_1]

Yeah, the bill he has to pay! What kind of friggin question was that?

Your the first one to get all offended and cry bullied when people simply misunderstand you. And you make comments such as "What kind of friggin question was that?.

It was just a question, personally I don't really take someones word over the net as 100% proof, albeit I do believe in this instance his price has risen. But can you prove (or him) that his bill has increased 20% due purely to the night race?

[ioan]

Your the first one to get all offended and cry bullied when people simply misunderstand you. And you make comments such as "What kind of friggin question was that?.

It was just a question, personally I don't really take someones word over the net as 100% proof, albeit I do believe in this instance his price has risen. But can you prove (or him) that his bill has increased 20% due purely to the night race?

Gimme a break. You are asking illogical questions and than start crying when I point it out.

[Dave B]

All of which is distracting from the question: has the guy with the high electricity bill got any proof that the increase is due to the night race, when I've provided two credible sources which say it isn't?

[ioan]

All of which is distracting from the question: has the guy with the high electricity bill got any proof that the increase is due to the night race, when I've provided two credible sources which say it isn't?

I know you provided a source that says the electricity bill shoul go up by around 5% for this month.
He was talking about 20% however.

I really don't know if he went to the electricity company and asked them to show him the books.
His opinion was that 20% was to much and he was sure that it was because of the race.

[Knock-on]

I know you provided a source that says the electricity bill shoul go up by around 5% for this month.
He was talking about 20% however.

I really don't know if he went to the electricity company and asked them to show him the books.
His opinion was that 20% was to much and he was sure that it was because of the race.

So, your stance is based on someones opinion that has no basis in fact.

I think you're on a hiding to nothing with this one ioan.

[PolePosition_1]

So, your stance is based on someones opinion that has no basis in fact.

I think you're on a hiding to nothing with this one ioan.

Come on now Knock On....stop picking on Ioan by asking him to us facts rather than opinions to prove a point :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

Gimme a break. You are asking illogical questions and than start crying when I point it out.

I'm merely pointing out your double standards.

[jas123f1]

Well, back to topic, whats your opinion on the Monaco GP?

Monaco has a long history therefore we can’t compare Singapore with Monaco. Drivers (and every one) count a win in Monaco as a great honour because of Monaco’s "racing history" – not because it’s a suitable and good track for F1.

The first F1 race in Monaco was held in already 1929. At that time (90 years ago) it was ok to have a track like Monaco but today it’s not. F1 has during those years changed to the "pinnacle of motorsport" and today it’s very expensive and thousands of employers are working with Formula One.

Therefore we can’t compare Monaco with any other track – it’s outstanding for many reasons and deserves its place in the F1-calendar. Singapore has nothing - it’s not suitable track for Formula one racing for many reasons... and hasn't any other reasons to be in the F1-calendar either..

So Montezemolo has absolutely right in his critic – because today we are living in 2008 and not 1929.

Btw - I have a nice picture from a race in Monaco 1927 where 15 cars are on the starting grid.

:)

[ioan]

So, your stance is based on someones opinion that has no basis in fact.

I think you're on a hiding to nothing with this one ioan.

Maybe you live in Singapore?
If yes, prove me wrong, if not shut it.

[ioan]

Come on now Knock On....stop picking on Ioan by asking him to us facts rather than opinions to prove a point :rolleyes:

I wonder what you would do without Knockie?! Do you have something of your own? :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Monaco has a long history therefore we can’t compare Singapore with Monaco. Drivers (and every one) count a win in Monaco as a great honour because of Monaco’s "racing history" – not because it’s a suitable and good track for F1.

The first F1 race in Monaco was held in already 1929. At that time (90 years ago) it was ok to have a track like Monaco but today it’s not. F1 has during those years changed to the "pinnacle of motorsport" and today it’s very expensive and thousands of employers are working with Formula One.

Therefore we can’t compare Monaco with any other track – it’s outstanding for many reasons and deserves its place in the F1-calendar. Singapore has nothing - it’s not suitable track for Formula one racing for many reasons... and hasn't any other reasons to be in the F1-calendar either..

So Montezemolo has absolutely right in his critic – because today we are living in 2008 and not 1929.

Btw - I have a nice picture from a race in Monaco 1927 where 15 cars are on the starting grid.

:)

One of these days some F1 newcomer will compare Barcelona with the old Nurburgring!
I wouldn't be surprised though, as many people have no values at all in their life.

[ShiftingGears]

Maybe you live in Singapore?
If yes, prove me wrong, if not shut it.

No-one needs to live in Singapore to be able to question how much of an electricity bill was due to an F1 race, obviously.

[ioan]

No-one needs to live in Singapore to be able to question how much of an electricity bill was due to an F1 race, obviously.

No one had to live in Finland either in order to question Kovalainen's words after the German GP. Still they were proved wrong and than went for the no English article excuse. :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

No one had to live in Finland either in order to question Kovalainen's words after the German GP.
Still they were proved wrong and than went for the no English article excuse. :rolleyes:

There was a question of language and how it's translated. Here there is not.

You are critisising everyone else when you offer nothing more than someone speculating that his bills have increased as a direct result of the grand prix.

Speculation. Not fact.

You are making the claims. So the onus is on you to put up or shut up.

[ioan]

There was a question of language and how it's translated. Here there is not.

You are critisising everyone else when you offer nothing more than someone speculating that his bills have increased as a direct result of the grand prix.

Speculation. Not fact.

You are making the claims. So the onus is on you to put up or shut up.

Make of it what you wish. I talked about what a Singaporean said.
You talk about what you wish, and you also got into this in order to attack me, it's pretty obvious.
If you have nothing better to do than it's fine by me.
But as I said maybe you live in Singapore and have better knowledge that the person who saw his own electricity bill go up by 20%.
So prove me wrong or close it. :mad:

[gloomyDAY]

How did this thread turn into an argument over an electric bill?

Who cares? This is ridiculous!

[ShiftingGears]

Make of it what you wish. I talked about what a Singaporean said.
You talk about what you wish, and you also got into this in order to attack me, it's pretty obvious.
If you have nothing better to do than it's fine by me.
But as I said maybe you live in Singapore and has better knowledge that the person who saw his own electricity bill go up by 20%.
So prove me wrong or close it. :mad:

I was attacking your logic. Not you.

Noone needs to be in Singapore to question a matter of logic.

It's not whether or not his bills went up. Noones saying that his bills didn't.

It's whether that it has any direct correlation to the grand prix being staged. Considering that it was powered by diesel generators, and not the power grid.

But since you see an argument based on logic as an attack, well, I'm not going to try to change your opinion.

[ioan]

I was attacking your logic. Not you.

Noone needs to be in Singapore to question a matter of logic.

No, but one has to lack a lot in a certain department to believe that a pom or an australian will now better what was on the guys electricity bill. :rolleyes:



It's whether that it has any direct correlation to the grand prix being staged.

Well, Dave posted a link where Singaporean authorities were quoting a price rise of around 5%. Where did the additional 15% come from? It's everyone's guess, but it can well be to cover the GP expenses.



Considering that it was powered by diesel generators, and not the power grid.

But since you see an argument based on logic as an attack, well, I'm not going to try to change your opinion.

You're not serious, are you?
Just because it wasn't connected to the power grid it doesn't mean that it can be put on a bill.
Oh and the guy didn't say that he consumed 20% more, he said the price went up by 20%. There's a difference, IMO. :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

Well, Dave posted a link where Singaporean authorities were quoting a price rise of around 5%. Where did the additional 15% come from? It's everyone's guess, but it can well be to cover the GP expenses.
I quoted a source which said bills had risen by 22% year-on-year, which would appear to fit with this guy's claims. However that and a statement by the chair of the energy board both stated this was due to the wider market, NOT the night race.

I don't know or care why this guy's bill has risen, I just know it's not because of F1.

If you claim to have proof that it was, it's up to you to substantiate it.

[ioan]

I quoted a source which said bills had risen by 22% year-on-year, which would appear to fit with this guy's claims. However that and a statement by the chair of the energy board both stated this was due to the wider market, NOT the night race.

He was talking about a monthly raise from September to October, not a yearly raise. I think I mentioned this already.