BMWs in the BTCC 2007

[The mad monk]

heres a little info which I think might start a few teams wondering.........
Brands Indy,Monday.Dry,ambient 11c,5K S.westerly.
Testing:Andy Priaulx,new 2007 BMW race car.
Tyres:Yokohama(softer than BTCC spec)+tyre warmers prior to each session.
Totally 'on it' from pit lane exit.
2006 BTCC pole:Chilton,48.9.(BTCC spec Astra)
Plato:49.3.(S2000 spec Seat Leon)
Both above on harder Dunlop BTCC spec tyres,cold.
Andy Priaulx best on day:............50.18.
mmmmm......and THIS BMW is the BEST in the World.and the best team.and the World Champion driving it!
Well suited to European circuits,but in the UK?

[VkmSpouge]

Certainly hard to account for the time difference but the BMWs haven't been entirely uncompetitive in the British rounds of the ETCC/WTCC.

[PDS]

heres a little info which I think might start a few teams wondering.........
Brands Indy,Monday.Dry,ambient 11c,5K S.westerly.
Testing:Andy Priaulx,new 2007 BMW race car.
Tyres:Yokohama(softer than BTCC spec)+tyre warmers prior to each session.
Totally 'on it' from pit lane exit.
2006 BTCC pole:Chilton,48.9.(BTCC spec Astra)
Plato:49.3.(S2000 spec Seat Leon)
Both above on harder Dunlop BTCC spec tyres,cold.
Andy Priaulx best on day:............50.18.
mmmmm......and THIS BMW is the BEST in the World.and the best team.and the World Champion driving it!
Well suited to European circuits,but in the UK?
Which is what I would have imagined.
Don't forget when the WTCC visited brands last year, Andy Priaulx was the fastest BMW in TENTH place on the grid!
As much as I love the BMW's. I am not expecting too much from them. But let them prove me wrong!

[Phil H]

But you have only showed data from one circuit, there are 7/8 others to account for! Brands is a strange circuit!

[captin 1 VXR]

heres a little info which I think might start a few teams wondering.........
Brands Indy,Monday.Dry,ambient 11c,5K S.westerly.
Testing:Andy Priaulx,new 2007 BMW race car.
Tyres:Yokohama(softer than BTCC spec)+tyre warmers prior to each session.
Totally 'on it' from pit lane exit.
2006 BTCC pole:Chilton,48.9.(BTCC spec Astra)
Plato:49.3.(S2000 spec Seat Leon)
Both above on harder Dunlop BTCC spec tyres,cold.
Andy Priaulx best on day:............50.18.
mmmmm......and THIS BMW is the BEST in the World.and the best team.and the World Champion driving it!
Well suited to European circuits,but in the UK?


come on tyres can give or loss u time . also the track temp could have been at 4 c for andy but could have been 18c for the other 2 . .

the only true times will be at the pre sesson test . in spain in few weeks time :rolleyes: ohh might need to pop along :D if its a open test for jo public :cool:

[Captain VXR]

Brands was soaking wet at the WTCC though which doesn't suit rear wheel drive cars at all.

[PDS]

Brands was soaking wet at the WTCC though which doesn't suit rear wheel drive cars at all.
Brands was NOT wet during qualifying!

[captin 1 VXR]

read the info again he said andy was in 2007 car not 2006

so i took it he was testing this week . not last years round :rolleyes:

[PDS]

read the info again he said andy was in 2007 car not 2006

so i took it he was testing this week . not last years round :rolleyes:

Yes, No, What??

The Mad Monks post was about this weeks test!
The comment I made was about last years round at Brands Hatch. It's all there!
It's hard to get them confused!
If it's the 2007 car, then that is worst, surely?

[captin 1 VXR]

i say the time set on monday is very good air temp 11c so that means track in the sun could have been 4 to 6 c but in the shade would have been down to 2 to 4 c . the air it self would have been damp to . so has any btc teams tested this week there ??

[PDS]

The Mad Monk is a well respected ex-BTCC race driver.

If he shows concern, then I respect that!

[tyreman2]

The Mad Monk is a well respected ex-BTCC race driver.

If he shows concern, then I respect that!
I agree with that PDS the monk knows all their is to know about Touring cars and 1 second is a lot on the Indy circuit

[Iain]

What is the problem then? Is it the cars, the tyres, the weather or the circuit surfaces in the UK?

[The mad monk]

Time difference AT PRESENT is a combination of everything,plus the gearbox homologated and used.
Andy runs 5speed dog box.can use 6speed sequential,BUT,30kilo weight penalty.
6speeder on UK circuits will be better for gearing at UK tracks,but weight penalty can hurt.Hence my concern.
but tyres are the big one;getting heat into the fronts.
as an aside,I only provided this info for forum members to discuss;Phil H...
Donington today....still need a bit of pace mate!
but what do I know!!

[VkmSpouge]

Don't forget when the WTCC visited brands last year, Andy Priaulx was the fastest BMW in TENTH place on the grid!

Correct me if I'm wrong but having done well in the previous round in France, Dirk Muller, Jorg Muller and Andy Priaulx would have all been handicapped with success ballast at Brands Hatch?

[kmchow]

OTOH, perhaps the current indie teams just don't have the cars dialed in as well as the Works Schnitzer back in the ST days? If they had more time (err, money) to test the car setups to find the "sweet spot"?

[edenrace]

I was with RBM today at Brands, as no one has done a back to back with Yokos and BTCC Dunlops it is impossible to say what the BTCC E90 BMWs lap times will be until they run with other BTCC cars on the same day.For sure the car is good but so is the Seat.

[PDS]

I supose you could have a point there...

But, if that's the case. he did very well then, as I said he was the fastest BMW!

[reidy_fan]

The Mad Monk is a well respected ex-BTCC race driver.

If he shows concern, then I respect that!

BTCC god more like, only 1 other man has done what he has done and it took 20 odd years for that to happen :-)

Still looking for your Corolla Chris, have found Win Percy's though

[btracer]

The Mad Monk is a well respected ex-BTCC race driver.

If he shows concern, then I respect that!

But WSR aint not mugs are they?

If some like Chris is aware of these "facts" then I'm sure WSR are also well aware of it. There is really no point in comparing times when there running completly different tyres in completly different conditions is there.

[Iain]

OTOH, perhaps the current indie teams just don't have the cars dialed in as well as the Works Schnitzer back in the ST days? If they had more time (err, money) to test the car setups to find the "sweet spot"?

Tyre warmers were allowed back then though. They were banned at the end of 1999. Hence James Thompson's crash at Dingle Dell in 2000 as his cold rear tyres helped him crash on his outlap from the pits. :s

Thanks for your input Chris. Is there any way of getting heat into the fronts apart from tyre warmers? What effect do cold tyres have on a RWD car, understeer because the grip isn't there?

[The mad monk]

Iain,yep,I believe that is a fundamental problem that may hamper RWD cars.
all that i am trying to emphasise is that,here we have the best WTCC spec car in the world,the World Champion driving it,and i reckon we have absolute quality at the FRONT of the BTCC,and teams running RWD cars will still have a very tough task to match top-line FWD cars on the UK circuits.
It will be very interesting to see how Dick Bennetts gets on developing this car into a proven winner.I am sure it is possible,however I do not consider it a foregone conclusion that,because this car is super competitive in Europe,this may equate to the same in the UK.
and there is another one lurking about for a very good driver and team which few know about at this time,and which I believe could steal some thunder from WSR.....going to be very interesting this!

[ATF]

Don't forget when the WTCC visited brands last year, Andy Priaulx was the fastest BMW in TENTH place on the grid!


But he did have ballast on the car AND he was on for winning the second race!

Whenever a S2000 BMW has run in the BTCC, it hasn't done well.
But...
I doubt a top team like WSR would rush into buying these cars without doing a proper evaluation of how it would perform. They are obviously confident and targeting the title.

The truth is, until we see the WSR BMW on the track, we can't accurately (or fairly) predict how it will be.

[Ed]

I think its not only the car, but the driver has the main influence. Remeber when Harvey drove The BMW that Keen drove for a Dunlop tyre test, wasn't he supposed to be nearly up to a second a lap quiker then Keen at Snertion or something?

[tin-top fan]

Its the old problem this isn't it- when a car isn't performing to what was expected, what is the cause? Is the car not good enough? Are the tires not suitable? Is the driver holding the car back?
We only have to look at someone in Proteam to see how a different team and driver can effect the lap times. At brands Rangoni qualified - in the same car- 0.3 secs behind Prilaux and and they had no success ballast. Maybe all the teams that have run beemers in the Uk recently have all been at Proteams level, whereas WSR can opperate at a level as high as RBM....

[Iain]

Proteam wouldn't have had as high a spec car as RBM though.

[Iain]

Just split this from the rumours thread as it's an interesting topic and it wasn't really about rumours.

[Robinho]

what is it about the UK circuits that doesn't seem to suit the current BMW's then?

i assume its down to the narrow and twisty nature of some, compared with the GP spec circuits used in WTCC, but that should mean they go well at quick open circuits, like Snetterton, Thruxton, Silverstone?

i hope that once the cars are dialled into the UK trackes that they do perform close to the front of the grid, in reality the cars are a match for the SEATs, but foer whatever reason they haven't performed in the BTCC recently. i hope its down to the lack of funding and top flight experience of the teams running BM's in recent years.

After all BMW's were able to win races and championships in previous years in previous spec BTCC times, and the circuits were the same then?

[The mad monk]

So why wont BMW give any team in the UK championship their official blessing and support then?
And why did Steve Neal decide at the last moment to forsake purchase of BMW's and decide to go Honda?

[VkmSpouge]

Well for the first I would say that funding Andy Priaulx and RBM must be taking up a fair bit of budget. As for the second, Neal must have thought the Honda was the better way to go for Team Dynamics.



After all BMW's were able to win races and championships in previous years in previous spec BTCC times, and the circuits were the same then?

Circuits are the same (for the most part) but the rules aren't. Super 2000 differs from Super Touring and Production, which would mean a difference in performance.

[Alan Gow]

So why wont BMW give any team in the UK championship their official blessing and support then?
And why did Steve Neal decide at the last moment to forsake purchase of BMW's and decide to go Honda?

simple;

1. Because BMW UK don't have a budget to give them
2. Because Honda UK do.

any team would have made that same decision.

[Captain VXR]

Iain,yep,I believe that is a fundamental problem that may hamper RWD cars.
all that i am trying to emphasise is that,here we have the best WTCC spec car in the world,the World Champion driving it,and i reckon we have absolute quality at the FRONT of the BTCC,and teams running RWD cars will still have a very tough task to match top-line FWD cars on the UK circuits.
It will be very interesting to see how Dick Bennetts gets on developing this car into a proven winner.I am sure it is possible,however I do not consider it a foregone conclusion that,because this car is super competitive in Europe,this may equate to the same in the UK.
and there is another one lurking about for a very good driver and team which few know about at this time,and which I believe could steal some thunder from WSR.....going to be very interesting this!

Is that Peter Snowdon as he was rumoured to be looking at a 320si??

[Alfabeta2]

As tire warmers are not allowed corner swapping is the best that any team can do in the btcc to get heat into the non drive tires. All the drivers do is one lap (parade lap in a race) with the tires on the oposite corners and spin the drive wheels up the whole way round getting maximum heat into them then, then swap the tires from courner to courner and send the car out hopeing the driver can keep some heat in the non drive wheels.

[tisme]

and there is another one lurking about for a very good driver and team which few know about at this time,and which I believe could steal some thunder from WSR.....going to be very interesting this!

Is that the Matt Jackson rumour?

[captin 1 VXR]

i don t think wsr has a problem . and also i realy don t think andy was pushing as hard as he could . it was only a test not a race meet

[Funks]

I'm sure former and current drivers / team personnel will correct me if I am wrong but I thought that when you go testing you push a car as hard as you can to find out whether the changes you make are working or not. You do not purposely drive slower just because it isn't a race. :dozey:

[Iain]

Plus you want to see if you break it. :p : If not then the team's done their job well.

[captin 1 VXR]

no when i was running a nsc championship car. we had a program to run and this some times ment doing 2 or 3 laps in . and also if the driver bent the car we kick his butt as he s ment to be a race drive not a crash test dummie . ..

also some time you testing for suplers

[The mad monk]

Iain,Funks,...correct.there for 3 days(inc. today).
some ballast in the car.(not max).
50.18.
and I DO know when a driver is trying!
rumour?,what rumour?....
next week some more news.

[Radders]

heres a little info which I think might start a few teams wondering.........
Brands Indy,Monday.Dry,ambient 11c,5K S.westerly.
Testing:Andy Priaulx,new 2007 BMW race car.
Tyres:Yokohama(softer than BTCC spec)+tyre warmers prior to each session.
Totally 'on it' from pit lane exit.
2006 BTCC pole:Chilton,48.9.(BTCC spec Astra)
Plato:49.3.(S2000 spec Seat Leon)
Both above on harder Dunlop BTCC spec tyres,cold.
Andy Priaulx best on day:............50.18.
mmmmm......and THIS BMW is the BEST in the World.and the best team.and the World Champion driving it!
Well suited to European circuits,but in the UK?

Interesting bit of info - may be a daft thing to point out but the bit about Andy being "on it" from the pit lane - I take it that the 50.1 was a flying lap, if so what was the relevance of that part (not tyres as they were partially warmed already???....)
Would have thought Brands is the circuit where the Beemer may suffer, should be ok on all th other surely? Mind you, even if it doesn;t qualify fastest, atleast there's the chance of a Steve Soper '92 style bit of oversteer on the first lap coming out of Surtees...hehehehe

[Iain]

no when i was running a nsc championship car. we had a program to run and this some times ment doing 2 or 3 laps in . and also if the driver bent the car we kick his butt as he s ment to be a race drive not a crash test dummie . ..

also some time you testing for suplers

When I say "break it", I mean testing components until they pack in. And if they still work at the end of the day, then that's a successful test in a way. I know some motorsport teams prefer to have problems, which means they can cure them and prevent them from happening during an event.

[Ed]

stupid question but you know you've been comparing Andy Priaxul BMW and Jason's Plato Seat, wouldnt if have been better to compare the times on theWTCC seats and BTCC seats seeing as they are the same car

[Alfabeta2]

the wtcc seats have a flat floor for extra Airo effect

[100%hondafan]

they also run on diffrent tyres in diffrent conditions.

but i do think wsr may strugle unless they go the 6 speed route.

[BT 96]

S2000 Runners at Brands 2006

whats your thoughts

2006
Jason Plato:. (S2000 Seat Leon)............. 49.34 ....... 1060 kgs

Chris Stockton ( S2000 Lexus ............. 50.60 ........ 1160 kgs

Martyn Bell (S2000 BMW 320i E46............. 51.38 ....... 1130 kgs


2OO7
Andy Priaulx BMW E90 50.18

This could be one of the best seasons

[PDS]

What weight should they all be in 2007 BT 96?

[Andy Richards11]

Jason Plato...........1060kgs

No way. The S2000 cars base weight is 1140kgs, last year they were given weight dispensation by TOCA of 25/30kgs meaning a base weight of 1115/1110kgs, but don't forget Jason was carrying ballast for being 2nd in the championship (36kgs) meaning his car should have weighed 1151/1146kgs. Not sure where you got that weight (1060kg) from?

[BT 96]

What weight should they all be in 2007 BT 96?

Jason PLATO GBR SEAT Leon 50.132 weight added from the 1st win and from my recolection at the weigh in he still wasn't running 1140kgs, and this season Seat ,Vauxhall ,TD, WSR will all be on the same playing field. Sorry PDS here's your info

The minimum weight of the car, including the driver and his full
equipment, is :
- 1110 kg for a front-wheel drive car the gearbox of which is
original and homologated in Group N,
- 1140 kg for a front-wheel drive car the gearbox of which is
homologated in VK Super 2000,
- 1140 kg for a rear-wheel drive car the gearbox of which is original
and homologated in Group N,
- 1170 kg for a rear-wheel drive car the gearbox of which is
homologated in VK Super 2000.
These minimum weights must be respected at all times during the
event, in particular when the car crosses the finish line.

All am saying is it should be very close and all the cars will be the same,
running to S2000 RUELS and weights, and I think everybody has a chance of being up front, which is why we join the series.

For me TD have shown my team if you want race and win in the BTCC it can be done, yes they have good sponsors yes they have good cars and yes they have good people, but thats what you need to win, and they have shown that Indy teams can win against the very best teams.

sorry for going on a bit, but this season will be one of the very best.

[PDS]

Please excuse my ignorance BT 96...

So, a BMW with a sequential gearbox would be 1170kg? Where a Seat would weigh 1140kg?

A non-sequential box is worth 30kg?

[tdb]

Correct PDS.

Rear wheel drive is seen as an advantage.

However a sequential box with "flat shift" out weighs the weight penalty.

[speedy king]

no when i was running a nsc championship car. we had a program to run and this some times ment doing 2 or 3 laps in . and also if the driver bent the car we kick his butt as he s ment to be a race drive not a crash test dummie . ..

also some time you testing for suplers


Huh? :s I thought you were 8 :s

[100%hondafan]

you must have been like 11 so how could you be working on national saloons?

and touring cars will be alot diffrent to them will test to go as quick as possible or to see if the new parts last under race pace/conditons.

see if the part brakes or lasts its a sucess for touring cars teams.

[Robinho]

if all the S2000 cars in the BTCC are running 6 speed sequential then the weight penalty is a moot point as they will all be 30kgs higher than the standard base rate?

[Radders]

Don't RWD cars have a 30kg penalty over FWD cars already?

[tdb]

see my previous post and bt96's post on weights

[Pilfp]

Perhaps they are sandbagging.

[CroftPilgrim]

I'm with BT 96 on this one. With all cars (with exception of a few indys that can't win the championship) running to S2000 the playing field is suddenly very level.

And anyway, isn't it always dangerous to read too much into pre-season testing?

[100%hondafan]

why woudl RBM sandbag they race in the wtcc they woudl want to see how quick they can go

[kmchow]

why woudl RBM sandbag they race in the wtcc they woudl want to see how quick they can go
If they do too well, it may encourage other teams to spend extra $$ last minute to improve their cars to narrow the gap? Possibly the organizers could start their early to review/change base weights,etc...

BMW may want to stun their competitors and build up the biggest lead and R&D possible over their competitors.

[cos]

Team RAC might enter their BMWs for the Brands WTCC date (Autosport quotes Bennetts as saying "We'd like to do it") - should provide an interesting comparison if it happens!

[Alfa Fan]

Wouldn't it be funny if they beat the factory BMW WTCC teams....

[VkmSpouge]

Well if they were to do the British round of the WTCC, then they would have to try to adapt to the Yokohama tyres. So WSR would be at a disadvantage.

[Captain VXR]

Apart from they could buy set-up data from shedloads of teams - Ravaglia, RBM, Schnitzer, Wiechers, Proteam etc

[btracer]

RBM were on a shakedown of there new car so i don't know what sort of pace they were going for.

As for the change of tyres, whilst it is always a disadvantage teams can work round it. Like at the British round of the EuroF3 last year when HiTech entered for that particuler round they didnt do too bad. Will be very interesting if they do enter.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I've just been looking at the archive results of the 2004 Edenbridge BMW and comparing the times with Martyn Bell.
At Brands Hatch Indy Keen was 1.2 seconds off pole position but Martyn Bell was 2.0 seconds off pole. While this is far from scientific I think that Justin Keen and Edenbridge were given a lot of unfair critism in 2004. ( Although the would have got more fans if they had stuck out all the season)

I can't wait to see how competitve the BMW are this season. I hope they all do very well.

[Ed]

I may be wrong but I can imagine that the lap times went down compared to 2004 which would explain the differences between to 2 BMWS

[VkmSpouge]

Justin Keen's qualifying time was at Brands Hatch Indy in 2004 (his first race meeting in the car) was 50.661 with a pole time of 49.432 leaving him 2.486% from pole.
Martyn Bell's qualifying time at the second meeting at Brands Hatch Indy in 2006 (his ninth race meeting in the car) was 51.384 with a pole time of 49.368, this left him 4.084% from pole.

Justin Keen was undoubtedly quicker than Martyn Bell.

[tin-top fan]

It's probably been answered before, but have the tires that the cars use changed- and didn't Keen use a different gearbox as well?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Maybe weights were different too.

But I thought that Bell had changed his gearbox to a sequential wich was supposed to be faster although heavier? :s

[Allyc85]

the 1st pic of rick kerry's 1 series livery is up on crash.net

http://www.crash.net/news_View~cid~10~id~144013.htm

[Iain]

It's probably been answered before, but have the tires that the cars use changed- and didn't Keen use a different gearbox as well?

With the exception of Thruxton which needs a special tyre, I think a different tyre compound was introduced for every other track in 2005. :up: Plus he had the H-Pattern box as far as I know. Peter Briggs will be able to tell you more if he comes on soon.

[100%hondafan]

rick kerrys bmw looks very nice!!

[Ed]

I really like that livery although it does reming me alot of the seat

[Funks]

Peter Briggs will be able to tell you more if he comes on soon.


:up:
A brief review of the old forum archived content shows just how much Peter divulged about the technical matters of the BMW. Interesting stuff.

If you'd have asked me 6 months ago to guess at how many BMWs there would be entering the BTCC in 2007 - I don't think I'd have said more than 3. All good news though, I really hope that someone gets to grip with the machines and can put up a fight for outright wins.

[edenrace]

As I have stated before Martyns car was 1 year newer, different anti roll bars ,engine with 1 more years updates including airbox ,therefore more power and switches mounted lower in cockpit, gearbox the same 5 speed until he changed later in the season to sequential. The cars are basicaly the same ,built from kits supplied by BMW not Schnitzer who build them from BMW kits just like everyone else. This year 19 kits have been sold. Tyres had no performance changes so lap times should be the same. Some drivers are just quicker! Tim Harvey was 0.5 secs quicker at Snetterton than Justin who was new to touring cars and was still learning the ropes.

[VkmSpouge]

the 1st pic of rick kerry's 1 series livery is up on crash.net

http://www.crash.net/news_View~cid~10~id~144013.htm

Good livery for Kerry, that should stand out in the field. Though it does remind me of the Farcéla livery on Richard Marsh's Peugeot last year...lets hope Kerry's BMW is more reliable.