Is it impossible to overtake in Singapore?

[Zai]

Whats your take?

[Big Ben]

it didn't look that way. I think there were more overtaking moves than on many other tracks this season.

[Zai]

it didn't look that way. I think there were more overtaking moves than on many other tracks this season.
We saw Rosberg getting past the slower\heavier Trulli. Question is... is overtaking more psychological or skill? Even the aggressive Hamilton said he did not want to take risks. I think racers have a psychological fear of street circuits. What do u think?

[F1boat]

Hamilton knew that Massa is out of the points and that DC is not the easiest driver to overtake, so that's why he didn't risk. But he overtook DC and so, to me it is not impossible, just difficult. And I like this.

[PolePosition_1]

I think its possible, as we saw. But its only possible if your 3-4 seconds a lap faster. With the long race distance, and variety of fuel strategies, we did see some overtaking as extra fuel made a greater difference than in a normal race.

But overtaking seemed hard, if you look at Kubica and Massa, once at the back, they were unable to do anything about it. Or we can look at Alonso, when he had track position I didn't think he had a chance, but as soon as Fisichella went into the pits, his lap times dropped 2 seconds, highlighting how difficult it was to overtake a car.

[wedge]

Yes, turn 7 is the best chance. Rosberg and Nakajima overtook Trulli, Hamliton on DC

I really don't understand this obsession with overtaking. If you're really obsessed with overtaking then watch something else.

IMHO you don't need lots of overtaking for a good race. What I like to see is close racing, which is what we got at Singapore - a train of cars, the odd car looking down the inside. That is just as exciting to watch.

Overtaking in F1 shouldn't be made too easy nor too difficult that we have a large field spread.

[ArrowsFA1]

I think racers have a psychological fear of street circuits. What do u think?
I disagree. Street circuits are more difficult to pass on because they don't generally have the massive run-off areas that allow greater risks to be taken without possible race ending incidents. Therefore drivers have to be more circumspect at places like Singapore and Monaco.

[jens]

If it's impossible, we wouldn't have seen any passes. Wasn't it Häkkinen, who once said that if you want, you can pass everywhere? :p :

[wedge]

I disagree. Street circuits are more difficult to pass on because they don't generally have the massive run-off areas that allow greater risks to be taken without possible race ending incidents. Therefore drivers have to be more circumspect at places like Singapore and Monaco.

Nice theory except Singapore is akin to a Tilke track in terms of wideness so you have plenty of room to dive down the inside and turn 7 leads onto a 5 lane highway - the exit kerbs allowed enough run-off away from the wall!

[ArrowsFA1]

Nice theory except Singapore is akin to a Tilke track...
True. It's certainly no Monaco, but still the walls can take a toll as Sutil, Raikkonen and Piquet discovered.

[samuratt]

True. It's certainly no Monaco, but still the walls can take a toll as Sutil, Raikkonen and Piquet discovered.

If what prevent drivers from overtaking each others are the walls around the circuit, I dare to say it has to do more with the psycological side of it than the ability.

[wedge]

True. It's certainly no Monaco, but still the walls can take a toll as Sutil, Raikkonen and Piquet discovered.

Not overtaking and outbraking yourself. That was down to driver errors.

[ArrowsFA1]

Not overtaking and outbraking yourself. That was down to driver errors.
Yup, but the same errors wouldn't have been penalised so heavily at, for example, Turkey where there are acres of run-off which brings me back to my point that street circuits are more difficult to pass on because they don't generally have the massive run-off areas that allow greater risks to be taken without possible race ending incidents.

So IMHO racers do not have a psychological fear of street circuits. They simply have the knowledge that misjudging a pass can be more costly than elsewhere.

[wedge]

Yup, but the same errors wouldn't have been penalised so heavily at, for example, Turkey where there are acres of run-off which brings me back to my point that street circuits are more difficult to pass on because they don't generally have the massive run-off areas that allow greater risks to be taken without possible race ending incidents.

So IMHO racers do not have a psychological fear of street circuits. They simply have the knowledge that misjudging a pass can be more costly than elsewhere.

I disagree. Champcar had great races on street tracks like Surfers Paradise and Toronto.

Turkey may be a great track but if you remember last year that was a dull race until Hamilton had tyre issues.

You get good races and bad races.

[MrJan]

Couple of good spots and certainly more open that the other street circuits. Also I think that the track provides interest just by being bumpy and challenging, unlike Melbourne, Monaco and Valencia. Decent track IMO.

[truefan72]

Couple of good spots and certainly more open that the other street circuits. Also I think that the track provides interest just by being bumpy and challenging, unlike Melbourne, Monaco and Valencia. Decent track IMO.


that about sums it up

[Zico]

The other thread with people raving about how good a circuit it allegedly was .. I just didnt see it that way, reminded me of indoor kart racing for some reason.. lol.. probably the lights. The fact that it was at night didnt do anything for me.

The drivers mainly reported at as being very bumpy offline and thus very difficult to overtake. I like circuits with multiple driving lines.. and consistant quality surfaces, Zandvoort springs to mind for some reason.

With regards to street circuits- At least Monaco has a certain va va voom! probably the best race in the F1 calendar Imo..

[AndyL]

Hamilton knew that Massa is out of the points and that DC is not the easiest driver to overtake, so that's why he didn't risk. But he overtook DC and so, to me it is not impossible, just difficult. And I like this.

Overtaking DC certainly seems to be a risky thing to attempt this season. I may be misremembering this but when Lewis did pass DC wasn't it down to some mistake or problem on DC's part - balked by a car that had just left the pits IIRC? Without that external factor Lewis would probably have never got past DC.

[wedge]

DC was baulked by Alonso.

Overtaking is overtaking. You get an opportunity and take it with both hands. If you want to look at excuses then you can find plenty of excuses for some great overtaking moves:

In Montreal Massa passed 2 cars in 1 corner because they made mistakes.

Schumacher was baulked by a slower car which allowed JV to pass on the outside of the Parabolica in Estoril '97.

Alonso blatantly had the faster car despite passing Schumi on the outside into 130R in Suzuka '05.

Mansell passed Piquet in Silverstone '87 after the former pitted for fresh tyres and the latter didn't.

[Tallgeese]

I think that over-taking is more than possible but that drivers are simply reluctant to do so. My own view is that once a driver has a good position they have sponsors & whatever to appease & getting enough driving time is just as important as a good result. Over-taking is risky so as pushing so hardly anyone tries to coax the most out of his machine.

I don't buy the whole 'downforce is compromised behind a vehicle' but I will admit that those grooved tyres don't help when cornering or out-braking because of the lack of grip while cornering. Although in theory slower cornering should produce reasonable overtaking opportunities, but a tendency to over-shoot (especially Montoya) is observed. Racers making the transition from GP2 for instance find that cornering in F1 is the most difficult aspect.

[MrJan]

With regards to street circuits- At least Monaco has a certain va va voom! probably the best race in the F1 calendar Imo..

Used to have a va va voom, then they made it smooth and took out all the challenges. Without rain it is the most boring GP on the circuit and would probably be the first one I'd strike off the list, even before Hungary :eek: It's Nostalgia dressed up as a spectacle which is ultimately a drag race to the first corner and a test of how good the teams are at pit stops.

[Knock-on]

Used to have a va va voom, then they made it smooth and took out all the challenges. Without rain it is the most boring GP on the circuit and would probably be the first one I'd strike off the list, even before Hungary :eek: It's Nostalgia dressed up as a spectacle which is ultimately a drag race to the first corner and a test of how good the teams are at pit stops.

I agree and said a couple of years ago that it should be canned as it's dangerous and boring. (I think it was the weekend that Jenson had his his big one)

The conversation at that time was for keeping it and I came to understand why. Basically, although it's a boring race, it's a great spectacle. From a purely racing perspective, it's untenable but F1 isn't about pure racing. It's got baggage.

Admittedly, it's Gucci baggage but that's F1. The event is the glamour and the spectacle, part of which is the actual racing.

Drivers also love it. The prestige of being a Monte Carlo winner is remembered more than any over victory. The Greats win at Monaco.

Taking all this into account, I think it probably deserves it's place.

[wedge]

I agree and said a couple of years ago that it should be canned as it's dangerous and boring. (I think it was the weekend that Jenson had his his big one)

The conversation at that time was for keeping it and I came to understand why. Basically, although it's a boring race, it's a great spectacle. From a purely racing perspective, it's untenable but F1 isn't about pure racing. It's got baggage.

Admittedly, it's Gucci baggage but that's F1. The event is the glamour and the spectacle, part of which is the actual racing.

Drivers also love it. The prestige of being a Monte Carlo winner is remembered more than any over victory. The Greats win at Monaco.

Taking all this into account, I think it probably deserves it's place.

Monaco is a glorified super special stage.

The drivers love it because its a pure test of skill. There's enough room to go 2 wide but make a mistake and the armco will punish you. There's no challenge like it in circuit racing.

[Dave B]

Not impossible, just bloody difficult - like it should be.