Screw Ferrari

[ioan]

FFS what the heck is this team doing?

And people say they aren't worse than before, they are in fact the worse there is.

[Powered by Cosworth]

Been a Ferrari fan since the dawn of time, and i'm so pissed off at how stupid these people can be.

The traffic light thing does not work! Its screwed you over in the past, why use it again?

If hamilton gets a good result, the championship will be over.

Why sign Kimi for another year? He's turned into a midfield driver.

They need to give Brawn, Todt and Schumacher a call. NOW.

[ioan]

I really hope they fire Domenicalli.
No matter what people will say it's his job to get the team straightened, and he only managed the opposite.

Go away Stefano, you're not up to the job, and you are destroying everything others have built with so many dedication. :down:

[Daika]

Give Alonso a call please...Massa can't handle adversity, Kimi is Kimi and there can disappear for months. Fire them both. I say Kubica and Alonso.

[ioan]

Give Alonso a call please...Massa can't handle adversity, Kimi is Kimi and there can disappear for months. Fire them both. I say Kubica and Alonso.

I'm yet to see what Masa did wrong?! :rolleyes:

[johngordon]

I don't post on here often but I need to share my heartbreak. I am getting sick of ferrari screwing everything up at the moment. Massa had that in the bag today and as the results stand Hammi would not have made the podium.
This is so hard to watch and my heart is with Massa, what else can he do?

[Daika]

I'm yet to see what Masa did wrong?! :rolleyes:

Have you ever see him winning back positions after a set back? At least Kimi fought his way back untill that pretty wall.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm yet to see what Masa did wrong?! :rolleyes:

After the pit mess-up he wasn't driving with his head screwed on. Running wide and spinning.

[ArrowsFA1]

It just shows how much of a team effort this sport is. A driver can do a spectacular Q lap, but if his team let him down there's not much he can do.

[Garry Walker]

I'm yet to see what Masa did wrong?! :rolleyes:

He went back to the Massa of 2002 after the pitstop. Several mistakes, put it in the wall at the end, did not have the pace, couldn`t overtake Fisichella for a long time. Kimi did much better after, till he put it in the wall.


I forgive both drivers, they were both screwed by unfair rules today.

[Daika]

Massa can only race when he has a trouble free afternoon. Something goes wrong and he end up last. This inability to cope with adversity is just wrong.

[PSfan]

Well, it seems that whenever there is a little suprise in the race, the Ferrari team come completely unglued, if there wasn't that first safety car I think Ferrari was destined for a 1-2... I think they are just not prepared for anything out of the ordinary. I hope there is no doubt now whether Kimi should be helping Massa now, seeing he is 27 points behind Lewis with only 30 points to gain.

I just wish Ferrari would take that "pit light system" one step further and add/hang a 19 widescreen lcd screen and camera on it so the driver can see whats happening behind it or at least a mirror, then I think the systems would be good...

Also in Massa's defence for not gaining anything after his his pit stop fiasco, his engine was probably none to happy about sitting so long at the end of pit lane, and also kudo's for him to have the for-thought to stop at pit lane instead of dragging the hose onto the track.

And before anyone questions why Massa got a drive through this time when his previous infraction only earned them a fine, I'm thinking that because this was appeared more dangerous, and it occured at the first pits as opposed to the last, that it was a worse situation this time around. though I would like to see Ferrari nailed with another fine on top of the drive through penalty, maybe 2x or 10x what the last fine was...

[Mickey T]

hadn't thought of it like that, but you're probably raising something that should be investigated.

ferrari does have form.

is this a systemic problem relating to their digital release system?

if it is, perhaps it should be banned for contributing to repeated near-misses in the pitlane.

if not, then something else is wrong with their release process.

[71minus2]

the traffic light system to me is a serious injury waiting to happen, either with mechanics being run over or as we saw today being dragged down by the fuel hose.

Further, there were mechanics in the next pit stall who were/could have been hit by the flailing hose. Or worse, there could have been a fire.

One positive thing is that Ferrari was penalised for an unsafe pit release, its a shame this wasn't applied in Valencia but that's worthy of is own thread.

[veeten]

notice who was in the paddock for Ferrari, as he was the last two races...

Jean Todt.

Personally, if this team slips lower than second in the constructor's, I expect him to return to his former job and do a thurough house cleaning.

[Jag_Warrior]

He went back to the Massa of 2002 after the pitstop. Several mistakes, put it in the wall at the end, did not have the pace, couldn`t overtake Fisichella for a long time. Kimi did much better after, till he put it in the wall.


I forgive both drivers, they were both screwed by unfair rules today.

What unfair rules screwed the Ferrari drivers that didn't affect everyone else?

[truefan72]

Well terrible mistake by the pit crew, but then Massa didn;t do much after that.
Funny how this time around it was a 10 second stop and go. and in Valencia it was just a fine. If it were a stop and go as it should have been, then probably Hamilton would have won the race.

Anyway, Ferrari need to get things sorted out real quick. They simply gifted LH points today, by failing to correct a problem they knew existed already. As soon as the SC came out, they lost their calm and in their nervousness,they botched the pit stop.

Now Kimi was pushing,but he did loose it and cost the team valuable WDC points. It was a pure racing accidnet and I really don't blame him too much for it.

[Jag_Warrior]

One positive thing is that Ferrari was penalised for an unsafe pit release, its a shame this wasn't applied in Valencia but that's worthy of is own thread.

Maybe this is one of the "unfair rules" that Garry is referring to. Though the drive-thru didn't screw Massa as much as the pitstop screwup by the team, I can agree that it's not fair to have different punishments for the same offense by the same team and driver.

Other than this one, I still want to hear about the other "unfair rules" that screwed the Ferrari drivers today though.

[jarrambide]

Massa can only race when he has a trouble free afternoon. Something goes wrong and he end up last. This inability to cope with adversity is just wrong.

And yet he is still in P2 in the general standing and has 20 more points than the current champion which incidentally is his teammate and has the same car.

I used to think Massa didn´t deserve to be an F1 driver, but this year he is doing a great job for Ferrari and if not for an error not of his making, chances are he would have been the current leader.

Does he struggle when things go wrong? yes, does he seems to get the best out of a great car?, yes, which is what you need if you plan to fight for the championship.

[SGWilko]

Screw Ferrari? Don't bother, I doubt they'd get that right either......

[N. Jones]

FFS what the heck is this team doing?

And people say they aren't worse than before, they are in fact the worse there is.

Ioan - do you think these things are happening because the new management team is trying to prove that they are better than the old management team? That they too can bring success to the Scuderia? (that's what it looks like to me)

[luc89]

Ever since Jean Todd and Ross Brawn left ferrari they have been having alot more trouble. In my opinion all the skrews have been loosened on the team and now the trouble have started creaping in. There have been numorous occasions when ferrari's cars have failed on the track or in the pitts. i dont believe it is the driveres faults but the management of the whole team.

[jens]

I think it was expected already years ago that after the departure of Team Schumacher Ferrari would start struggling more or less. But despite problems I think the design department is still doing a bloody good job and for 2008 Ferrari has designed a car, which generally has been fastest of all. This is their main strength, which has overcome weaknesses and managed to keep them in title contention. 2009 will be a real test for Ferrari, also for the design department, to prove themselves at the highest level.

[Robinho]

the pit release things needs to go, its clearly not safe. i'm not sure that Ferrari did much else wrong, but when you F**k up that bad what else do you need to do!

as for the drivers, i think they are performing admirably considering they are not being backed up by the team. in the MS days you could rely on every pitstop and every decision made being the right one, now - not so sure

[jso1985]

certainly if Hamilton wins the WDC this year it will be thanks to Ferrari...

And not thanks to Nigel Stepney :p

[ioan]

After the pit mess-up he wasn't driving with his head screwed on. Running wide and spinning.

Both Kimi and Hamilton overtook only 1 car after the SC was in otherwise they waited for other cars to pit or serve their penalties, that's exactly what Massa did too (after he was screwed in the pits and got a penalty too!

So, praising Kimi and Hamy for doing nothing more than Massa seems a bit too rich to be used for denigrating him. Hypocrisy? Most likely.

[ioan]

Have you ever see him winning back positions after a set back? At least Kimi fought his way back untill that pretty wall.

And yes I saw him winning back positions after a setback!
Silverstone 2007 - last (through no fault of his) too 5th!
Sepang 2006 - last to 5th!
Canada 2008 - 14th to 5th!

There might be some more, but these are just the last ones!

And this only shows how you watch F1 just for the sake of slagging drivers using damn lies. :mad:

[ioan]

notice who was in the paddock for Ferrari, as he was the last two races...

Jean Todt.

Personally, if this team slips lower than second in the constructor's, I expect him to return to his former job and do a thurough house cleaning.

They should have done it already after the first few races of the season, when it was already clear that Domenicalli was not up to the task.

[ioan]

Funny how this time around it was a 10 second stop and go.

It was a drive through not a stop and go! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Ioan - do you think these things are happening because the new management team is trying to prove that they are better than the old management team? That they too can bring success to the Scuderia? (that's what it looks like to me)

Yeah, it looks to me that the management is trying to hard to prove their worth while showing that they aren't up to it, instead of working their way slowly through the real problems they've got.

[ioan]

I think it was expected already years ago that after the departure of Team Schumacher Ferrari would start struggling more or less. But despite problems I think the design department is still doing a bloody good job and for 2008 Ferrari has designed a car, which generally has been fastest of all. This is their main strength, which has overcome weaknesses and managed to keep them in title contention. 2009 will be a real test for Ferrari, also for the design department, to prove themselves at the highest level.

They can design good cars because they have a good designer in charge, still they won't be able to win until their races are managed so badly.

[ioan]

the pit release things needs to go, its clearly not safe. i'm not sure that Ferrari did much else wrong, but when you F**k up that bad what else do you need to do!

as for the drivers, i think they are performing admirably considering they are not being backed up by the team. in the MS days you could rely on every pitstop and every decision made being the right one, now - not so sure

They were the best team in the pits for a decade, now they are the laughing stock of F1, in only one season. :(

[gravity]

They can design good cars because they have a good designer in charge, still they won't be able to win until their races are managed so badly.

U mean that they won't be able to win until their races are NOT managed so badly. :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

certainly if Hamilton wins the WDC this year it will be thanks to Ferrari...
Whoever wins the WDC this year it will be because they and their team did a better job than the rest over the whole season. In Singapore Ferrari screwed up, and their drivers made errors. McLaren and Hamilton simply did a better job and came away with valuable points.

[PolePosition_1]

I'm yet to see what Masa did wrong?! :rolleyes:

Whilst the pit stop was not his fault. The fact he made no progress whatsoever after his drive through was slightly disappointing. Considering he appeared to have the best car on the track.

[PolePosition_1]

the traffic light system to me is a serious injury waiting to happen, either with mechanics being run over or as we saw today being dragged down by the fuel hose.

Further, there were mechanics in the next pit stall who were/could have been hit by the flailing hose. Or worse, there could have been a fire.

One positive thing is that Ferrari was penalised for an unsafe pit release, its a shame this wasn't applied in Valencia but that's worthy of is own thread.

I don't really understand why the traffic light system is getting so much stick. Both errors from Massa in Valencia and Massa in Singapore. Both were caused by human errors, who is to say the lollipop man would not have made the same mistake?

I personally don't think the traffic light system is in the wrong, simply because it hasn't been the cause of any problems so far, its just poor human judgement, the pit crew have to improve, not the traffic light system.

[jens]

Massa's race can't get a direct comparison with Räikkönen's.

Firstly, unlike the Finn, he had a drive through penalty, which dropped him further backwards.

Secondly, after Kubica had passed him, Massa was very slow and dropped quickly backwards, making an unscheduled stop in the middle of the race. As it turned out, he had a puncture.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71002

No surprise FM couldn't get a proper chance to rise anywhere higher than the rear end of the field.

[ioan]

Massa's race can't get a direct comparison with Räikkönen's.

Firstly, unlike the Finn, he had a drive through penalty, which dropped him further backwards.

Secondly, after Kubica had passed him, Massa was very slow and dropped quickly backwards, making an unscheduled stop in the middle of the race. As it turned out, he had a puncture.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71002

No surprise FM couldn't get a proper chance to rise anywhere higher than the rear end of the field.

That won't stop the Massa bashers from talking nonsense. Never did, never will.

[Garry Walker]

I think it was expected already years ago that after the departure of Team Schumacher Ferrari would start struggling more or less. But despite problems I think the design department is still doing a bloody good job and for 2008 Ferrari has designed a car, which generally has been fastest of all. This is their main strength, which has overcome weaknesses and managed to keep them in title contention. 2009 will be a real test for Ferrari, also for the design department, to prove themselves at the highest level.

Sometimes people lose perspective and forget that in the Todt/schumacher age there were mistakes and problems too. Think of irvine tyre troubles in 1999, or Barrichello/schumacher pit problems at malaysia 2001. These things just happen at times.

Just the same as people forget that already during Schumacher/todt days there were reliability problems in 2005 and 2006.

So I would wait with the SD firing at the moment (except if the position was given to me :D )

I still don't know why there isn't a system where, when the fuel nozzle is attached to the car, the gearbox is always in neutral so that only when the nozzle is removed can first gear be selected.

[N. Jones]

I would say that is because nothing is 100% fool-proof. What if they something caused the car to stay in neutral? That would be a lot of time lost...

[ioan]

I still don't know why there isn't a system where, when the fuel nozzle is attached to the car, the gearbox is always in neutral so that only when the nozzle is removed can first gear be selected.

They would also need a manual override system in case the one you described fails.
In reality all they need is to do things calmly, not too panic.
They seem to be in such a panic every time something that is not usual happens (i.e. SC or wet conditions).

[ioan]

Sometimes people lose perspective and forget that in the Todt/schumacher age there were mistakes and problems too. Think of irvine tyre troubles in 1999, or Barrichello/schumacher pit problems at malaysia 2001. These things just happen at times.

Just the same as people forget that already during Schumacher/todt days there were reliability problems in 2005 and 2006.

So I would wait with the SD firing at the moment (except if the position was given to me :D )

We aren't talking about 1 or 2 blunders per season, not even about 10 mistakes in 5 seasons, we are talking about at least 10 in one season.

If it was about singular events than so be it, but we already got a pattern developing by halfway through the current season.

[dpcw_wsm]

You Ferrari Boy's make me laught.

Ferrari f*c% up all by them selves and suddely its a consircy against them.

How both drivers/ferrari didnt get a heavery penalty than a fine in valancer is boyond me, the rule book for that one (due to the ammount of laps left in race for decison to be made) is either a 10 place qualifying penalty or a 30 sec race time pentalty but they get slapped with a small fine equvilant to £20 to them.

They do it again in singapor and get a slightly heaver drive throught penalty but this is still a very big let off. It should have been a stop and go (dive in/out plus 10secs stationary) costing 45 secs rather than 30.

Ferrari get away with blue F%Ck@iNG murder.

When McLauren make perfectly good racing moves they get bum rapped and the FIA pull out rules that are non existant. Ive studyed the published rules with a fine tooth comb and there is nothing in there that says wait a corner. its just give lead back and you can attack again as hammy did but the FIA make up some random allong with the stewards to sort ferrari out. All the experts agree, the only people that agreed with FIA were the drivers them selves as they are fighting with lewis for the chapionship and to scared to say anything bad about the W&Nk£eRS that are burrnie and max.

The FIA's unfair and byasness toward Ferrari has been going on so long now.

The above mention insidant was not the only time this season and last that McLauren/Hamilton have been unfairly treated, admitadly TWATY Alonso deserved to get some kind of punishment for his antics last season but he got away with it and instead lewis/Mclauren get it in neck.

The FIA cant have the best raw tallent since Senna and posibly of all time winning in his 1st season, they managed to put a stop to that and there trying to stop him winning it this year aswell. As for ferrari having the best car thats a load of bollox, they are quite evenly matched ferrari betta at some that Mcl n vice versa but they deff got the best driver and you've got second best in rakionen. SCREW MASSA, HAKI and ALONSO.

This bull favourtisum towards the RED CARS needs to be stopped, Ferrair must be paying the FIA off, and its ruining the sport and racing action that lewis has brought the last couple of seasons, we see racing now instead of cars going round in order for 60 laps.

You bang on about the brawn, Schumacher and todd partnership, yeah they were good but these antics went on back then, the amount of S@IT$ schumy/ferrari used to get away with back then, if they'd have been treated the same as everyone else they would not have won half those world championships.

FIA are a Corrupt bunh of P*IC$s, berrnie wants MotoGP, lets hope and pray he never gets his grubby little hands on it and ruins the perfectly good, ligitimate racing in that.

Ohh and before anyone acuses me of being biast towards McLauren cos i support them, YOUR WRONG im actually a life long Williams fan but everyone appart from you RED boys can see the corrupt partnership going on between mossely/ferrari/burnie, theres even yanks on here who can see it and they've only payed a real interest in F1 the last 7/8 seasons since its been at the ledandary Motor Speed.

:vader: Lets Hope the next dangerous balls up Ferrari make Max and Berrnie are stood infront of the car and it causes serious damage :vader:

[Hawkmoon]

Boring, heard it all before, load of bull

This isn't the thread for that rubbish. Go find another thread. There are plenty of them around.

As for Ferrari, well they seem to want to gift wrap the championship for McLaren. They've wrapped it, now they just need to add the ribbon.

The whole team has had problems this year. The drivers have made unforced errors, the pit crew has made errors and the team has either failed to react or reacted poorly to changing situations during a race.

They should have almost wrapped up both titles already this year because in all but wet conditions the F2008 has been more than a match for the McLaren. Even some great driving by Hamilton wouldn't have been enough if it wasn't for the unreliability and litany of errors.

McLaren and Hamilton deserve their titles but Ferrari of old would have crushed McLaren by now.

[F1boat]

You Ferrari Boy's make me laught.



"McLauren"

chapionship

The FIA cant have the best raw tallent since Senna

ledandary Motor Speed.

:vader: Lets Hope the next dangerous balls up Ferrari make Max and Berrnie are stood infront of the car and it causes serious damage :vader:

ROFL!!!

[ioan]

You Ferrari Boy's make me laught.

Ferrari f*c% up all by them selves and suddely its a consircy against them.

How both drivers/ferrari didnt get a heavery penalty than a fine in valancer is boyond me, the rule book for that one (due to the ammount of laps left in race for decison to be made) is either a 10 place qualifying penalty or a 30 sec race time pentalty but they get slapped with a small fine equvilant to £20 to them.

They do it again in singapor and get a slightly heaver drive throught penalty but this is still a very big let off. It should have been a stop and go (dive in/out plus 10secs stationary) costing 45 secs rather than 30.

Ferrari get away with blue F%Ck@iNG murder.

When McLauren make perfectly good racing moves they get bum rapped and the FIA pull out rules that are non existant. Ive studyed the published rules with a fine tooth comb and there is nothing in there that says wait a corner. its just give lead back and you can attack again as hammy did but the FIA make up some random allong with the stewards to sort ferrari out. All the experts agree, the only people that agreed with FIA were the drivers them selves as they are fighting with lewis for the chapionship and to scared to say anything bad about the W&Nk£eRS that are burrnie and max.

The FIA's unfair and byasness toward Ferrari has been going on so long now.

The above mention insidant was not the only time this season and last that McLauren/Hamilton have been unfairly treated, admitadly TWATY Alonso deserved to get some kind of punishment for his antics last season but he got away with it and instead lewis/Mclauren get it in neck.

The FIA cant have the best raw tallent since Senna and posibly of all time winning in his 1st season, they managed to put a stop to that and there trying to stop him winning it this year aswell. As for ferrari having the best car thats a load of bollox, they are quite evenly matched ferrari betta at some that Mcl n vice versa but they deff got the best driver and you've got second best in rakionen. SCREW MASSA, HAKI and ALONSO.

This bull favourtisum towards the RED CARS needs to be stopped, Ferrair must be paying the FIA off, and its ruining the sport and racing action that lewis has brought the last couple of seasons, we see racing now instead of cars going round in order for 60 laps.

You bang on about the brawn, Schumacher and todd partnership, yeah they were good but these antics went on back then, the amount of S@IT$ schumy/ferrari used to get away with back then, if they'd have been treated the same as everyone else they would not have won half those world championships.

FIA are a Corrupt bunh of P*IC$s, berrnie wants MotoGP, lets hope and pray he never gets his grubby little hands on it and ruins the perfectly good, ligitimate racing in that.

Ohh and before anyone acuses me of being biast towards McLauren cos i support them, YOUR WRONG im actually a life long Williams fan but everyone appart from you RED boys can see the corrupt partnership going on between mossely/ferrari/burnie, theres even yanks on here who can see it and they've only payed a real interest in F1 the last 7/8 seasons since its been at the ledandary Motor Speed.

:vader: Lets Hope the next dangerous balls up Ferrari make Max and Berrnie are stood infront of the car and it causes serious damage :vader:

What a load of rubbish, and very poor spelling too. :rolleyes: :down:

[I am evil Homer]

They would also need a manual override system in case the one you described fails.
In reality all they need is to do things calmly, not too panic.
They seem to be in such a panic every time something that is not usual happens (i.e. SC or wet conditions).

But this 'panic' is a symptom to an extent of modern F1 racing where essentially the races are won and lost in a 4 lap window of an in lap, pit stop and two out laps.

[PolePosition_1]

admitadly TWATY Alonso deserved to get some kind of punishment for his antics last season but he got away with it

What antics are you refering to?

[PolePosition_1]

We aren't talking about 1 or 2 blunders per season, not even about 10 mistakes in 5 seasons, we are talking about at least 10 in one season.

If it was about singular events than so be it, but we already got a pattern developing by halfway through the current season.

Go on then, name me the 10 mistakes which Ferrari have made over the course of this season so far.

[ioan]

But this 'panic' is a symptom to an extent of modern F1 racing where essentially the races are won and lost in a 4 lap window of an in lap, pit stop and two out laps.

Yeah but those 0.5 seconds wouldn't have changed the world.
I still prefer 8 points achieved calmly to 0 points lost through panic. Especially nowadays when consistency wins a championship, not winning at all costs.

[pino]

Short translation :

We just had a bad day, but we have the best car, Massa's the best driver at the moment, and I expect Kimi in the last 3 races to shows he's the World Champ. We can still make it, our mechanics are amazing, they can make a mistake too but I am sure they will do a great job in the next races. From now on everyone will work for the same target so at the moment Kimi's our 2nd driver and I expect a 1-2 in the next 3 races...

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/Primo_Piano/2008/09/29/montezemolo29.shtml

[ioan]

That's the official version of the story. I bet the version he used at the Ferrari HQs was a very different one.

[PolePosition_1]

That's the official version of the story. I bet the version he used at the Ferrari HQs was a very different one.

Are you going to name me these 10 errors from this season?

[Knock-on]

Are you going to name me these 10 errors from this season?

Ferrari's:

Refuelling rig
Kimi's Tyres

McLarens:

Pit lane Crash
Using the wrong tyres in Italy

FIA's:

Not giving Massa a Drive through
Giving Lewis a 25sec penalty

There we go, there's a start.

[PolePosition_1]

Ferrari's:

Refuelling rig
Kimi's Tyres

McLarens:

Pit lane Crash
Using the wrong tyres in Italy

FIA's:

Not giving Massa a Drive through
Giving Lewis a 25sec penalty

There we go, there's a start.

lol sorry I should have been clearer, the 10 errors which Ferrari alone have made this year.

Apparently Ferrari use to make 10 errors over 5 years, but since SD has taken over, its 10 per season.

[Knock-on]

lol sorry I should have been clearer, the 10 errors which Ferrari alone have made this year.

Apparently Ferrari use to make 10 errors over 5 years, but since SD has taken over, its 10 per season.

:confused: Who would claim something like that?

;) Ahhhh, someone's who's posts I can't see ;)

(Now you know why)

It is true that Ferrari have made some cock-ups this year as have McLaren but it's a bit rough to blame SD for it all.

After all, there are always going to be mistakes, errors or bad judgement calls but generally they become apparent with the benefit of hindsight.

[pino]

That's the official version of the story. I bet the version he used at the Ferrari HQs was a very different one.

You don't know Montezemolo then...

[ioan]

You don't know Montezemolo then...

No, not really! :D
But still I doubt he praised them after last week ends result.

[pino]

No, not really! :D
But still I doubt he praised them after last week ends result.

No he didn't praise them, he just told them to carry on the good work, because thanks to them Ferrari still have the best car, game isn't over yet and they can still win both titles. Plenty of time in the winter-break to find out who and what to blame in case Ferrari will fail...

[ioan]

No he didn't praise them, he just told them to carry on the good work, because thanks to them Ferrari still have the best car, game isn't over yet and they can still win both titles. Plenty of time in the winter-break to find out who and what to blame in case Ferrari will fail...

I think there will be people to blame even if they manage to win. There are things that just don't work smooth enough (not to mention that perfection is very far now).

[Knock-on]

No he didn't praise them, he just told them to carry on the good work, because thanks to them Ferrari still have the best car, game isn't over yet and they can still win both titles. Plenty of time in the winter-break to find out who and what to blame in case Ferrari will fail...

Ferrari still have the best car (IMHO) and 2 excellent drivers. There are some issues but it is not a time to get the knives out but rather to calmly look at what needs to be done and work out how what they need to do in the last few races.

As you say, during the winter, they can analyse this years season and make any improvements they need to.

I can't believe some people think they should hold a Spanish Inquisition and some sort of hanging party at such a crucial time in the Championship. As a McLaren fan, I think it a wonderful idea but being serious, their fans should be a bit more loyal and supporting.

[pino]

I think there will be people to blame even if they manage to win. There are things that just don't work smooth enough (not to mention that perfection is very far now).

This management is new and young, and sometimes things don't work as they should. Fortunatley Montezemolo understands that, and he will wait the end of the season, before starting to blame anyone supposing there is anyone to blame...

[pino]

Ferrari still have the best car (IMHO) and 2 excellent drivers. There are some issues but it is not a time to get the knives out but rather to calmly look at what needs to be done and work out how what they need to do in the last few races.

As you say, during the winter, they can analyse this years season and make any improvements they need to.

I can't believe some people think they should hold a Spanish Inquisition and some sort of hanging party at such a crucial time in the Championship. As a McLaren fan, I think it a wonderful idea but being serious, their fans should be a bit more loyal and supporting.

knockie, wish I could read more intelligent posts like this from you ;) :p :

[Dave B]

The team president also backed the mechanics who gave Massa the green light during a pit stop despite the fuel hose still being attached to the car as he sped away.

"We have extraordinary mechanics who in other occasions have swung results our way," said Montezemolo.
"We must stay close to each other because Ferrari are always world champions and are still in the running to win."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7644042.stm

[Knock-on]

knockie, wish I could read more intelligent posts like this from you ;) :p :

Well Pino my old son, you just need to look harder because every post is a diamond but some just haven't been cut and polished yet ;)

As a McLaren fan, I think it a wonderful idea but being serious, their fans should be a bit more loyal and supporting.

Hold on, you claimed not long ago that you weren't a Mclaren fan.

[Knock-on]

Hold on, you claimed not long ago that you weren't a Mclaren fan.

:confused:

What?

I have always supported McLaren and Williams as well as Honda (mainly because Jenson is there).

Where have I said otherwise?

[kalasend]

Massa can only race when he has a trouble free afternoon. Something goes wrong and he end up last. This inability to cope with adversity is just wrong.

Though I agree to a certain extent, you are being too harsh on Massa. First, he got screwed by his own team, then by the drive-through. Add on that a tight circuit that doesn't encourage overtake. Even MS couldn't do much given the same circumstances.

But I also think that Massa lacks big time in terms of "come-back" ability. Oh well, I'm guessing Massa's hope relies on prayer now.

:confused:

What?

I have always supported McLaren and Williams as well as Honda (mainly because Jenson is there).

Where have I said otherwise?

My mistake. Having done a quick search you said you didn't 'love' them but you did support them.

Which, having some Italian blood in my veins, I have to confess sounds weird....but I'll put that down to the legendary English reserve!

You probably do 'love' them, just can't say it for fear of public embarassment.

But I also think that Massa lacks big time in terms of "come-back" ability. Oh well, I'm guessing Massa's hope relies on prayer now.

Actually, Felipe's best performances seem to be when the knives are out.

Turkey 2006, following a 13th place finish in Hungary.
Bahrain 2007 & Spain 2007, following a less than impressive Malaysian GP.
Bahrain 2008, following abysmal Australian & Malaysian GP's.
Hungary 2008, following crap to average performances at Silverstone & Hockenheim.
Valencia 2008, following the gut-wrench of the last 2 laps at the Hungaroring.

There seems to be a fair bit of bounce-back-ability in those.

Actually, Felipe's best performances seem to be when the knives are out.

Turkey 2006, following a 13th place finish in Hungary.
Bahrain 2007 & Spain 2007, following a less than impressive Malaysian GP.
Bahrain 2008, following abysmal Australian & Malaysian GP's.
Hungary 2008, following crap to average performances at Silverstone & Hockenheim.
Valencia 2008, following the gut-wrench of the last 2 laps at the Hungaroring.

There seems to be a fair bit of bounce-back-ability in those.

Forgot to mention Brazil 2006, following on from his disappearance at China.

[Knock-on]

Though I agree to a certain extent, you are being too harsh on Massa. First, he got screwed by his own team, then by the drive-through. Add on that a tight circuit that doesn't encourage overtake. Even MS couldn't do much given the same circumstances.

But I also think that Massa lacks big time in terms of "come-back" ability. Oh well, I'm guessing Massa's hope relies on prayer now.


Well, I don't know. He was 45 seconds off the lead after his Pit Stop drive through on lap 26 and struggling to overtake SB. he was 22 seconds off the points with a fast car and his team mate 3 places ahead.

He had got that to 35 seconds in 5 laps (Trulli was leading) but then made another mistake and dropped back to 45 seconds.

During the 2nd SC he was right behind HK in 13th but never progressed even though his partner made up places (until he lobbed it off)

He had the fastest car out there and had a chance to get back into the running. However, lack of overtaking slower cars and mistakes left him out of the points.

I can accept that it's the Tyres or the brakes but those are sorted now. i know he's not the best in the wet but it was dry and you cant say the car wasn't performing well because it was the class of the field and 0.5 seconds quicker than the 2nd fastest car in qualifying.

Really, it comes to a time when you have to say that he didn't perform when he had to battle his way through. He had the opportunity to take that race by the scruff of the neck and get a point or two as Lewis did the race before but gave up.

[Knock-on]

My mistake. Having done a quick search you said you didn't 'love' them but you did support them.

Which, having some Italian blood in my veins, I have to confess sounds weird....but I'll put that down to the legendary English reserve!

You probably do 'love' them, just can't say it for fear of public embarassment.


:laugh:

I dream of Silver Arrows and wake up in a hot sweat with Rons image in my mind.

:)

[ioan]

Well, I don't know. He was 45 seconds off the lead after his Pit Stop drive through on lap 26 and struggling to overtake SB. he was 22 seconds off the points with a fast car and his team mate 3 places ahead.

He had got that to 35 seconds in 5 laps (Trulli was leading) but then made another mistake and dropped back to 45 seconds.

FGS he had a puncture. :rolleyes:


During the 2nd SC he was right behind HK in 13th but never progressed even though his partner made up places (until he lobbed it off)

He had the fastest car out there and had a chance to get back into the running. However, lack of overtaking slower cars and mistakes left him out of the points.

His team mate was making up places because the drivers in front of him were pitting!

If I'm not mistaken Kimi overtook only one car, Hamy too. And even Felipe overtook Bourdais before he got the puncture!

Talk about pointing the finger in the wrong direction after not watching the race! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

:laugh:

I dream of Silver Arrows and wake up in a hot sweat with Rons image in my mind.

:)

Never had a doubt about this! :rotflmao:

:laugh:

I dream of Silver Arrows and wake up in a hot sweat with Rons image in my mind.

:)

Madonna Mia!

I read that, and for a moment I thought you'd said you wake up with Arrows & have an image of a sweaty Ron Dennis in your mind.

Thankfully, you didn't.

At least, you didn't say that outside of your sub-concious!

[SGWilko]

Madonna Mia!

I read that, and for a moment I thought you'd said you wake up with Arrows & have an image of a sweaty Ron Dennis in your mind.

Thankfully, you didn't.

At least, you didn't say that outside of your sub-concious!

Geez you guys, if I have nightmares now, I know who to blame!!! ;)

[Garry Walker]

We aren't talking about 1 or 2 blunders per season, not even about 10 mistakes in 5 seasons, we are talking about at least 10 in one season.

If it was about singular events than so be it, but we already got a pattern developing by halfway through the current season.

Let us count the mistakes by Ferrari team then.

engine failures at Australia, gearbox problem for kimi in qualy.
Problem fuelling Massa at Canada, but wasn`t that due to a problem not caused by Ferrari?
Problem for kimi at France, cost him two points and the win.
tactical mistake at Silverstone to leave drivers out on old inters.
engine failure for Massa at Hungary, caused by a problem not in the hands of Ferrari, but due to a faulty patch.
Engine failure for Kimi at Valencia, same reasons as above.
Singapore - problem when fuelling Massa.

Now, no team has ever had a perfect season. Ever. Even in 2002 Ferrari of Barrichello failed quite many times.

I also notice you have ignored one posters request to name all those 10 blunders you so loudly talked about.

[jens]

Considering what can be called as mistakes.

In OZ IMO it was a mistake that Räikkönen wasn't called in for his first pitstop during a safety car phase. He rose to P3, but needed to make a stop very soon anyway and was forced to drop to the back.

At Monaco Kimi got a penalty for a delay of tyres (?). Plus Massa's strategy on a drying circuit wasn't quite the best.

At Valencia Kimi had also a botched pitstop.

[Garry Walker]

Considering what can be called as mistakes.

In OZ IMO it was a mistake that Räikkönen wasn't called in for his first pitstop during a safety car phase. He rose to P3, but needed to make a stop very soon anyway and was forced to drop to the back.

At Monaco Kimi got a penalty for a delay of tyres (?). Plus Massa's strategy on a drying circuit wasn't quite the best.

At Valencia Kimi had also a botched pitstop.

The others you have a point on, but kimi was the one responsible for the bad pitstop at Valencia.

But if we go through like this, we will find every team has made similar mistakes.

[ioan]

Let us count the mistakes by Ferrari team then.

engine failures at Australia, gearbox problem for kimi in qualy.
Problem fuelling Massa at Canada, but wasn`t that due to a problem not caused by Ferrari?
Problem for kimi at France, cost him two points and the win.
tactical mistake at Silverstone to leave drivers out on old inters.
engine failure for Massa at Hungary, caused by a problem not in the hands of Ferrari, but due to a faulty patch.
Engine failure for Kimi at Valencia, same reasons as above.
Singapore - problem when fuelling Massa.

Now, no team has ever had a perfect season. Ever. Even in 2002 Ferrari of Barrichello failed quite many times.

I also notice you have ignored one posters request to name all those 10 blunders you so loudly talked about.

The answer to his question was obvious that's why I didn't bother to answer it, and thanks for answering it, looks like there are more than 10 of them blunders.

PS: you forgot to mention their Monaco mistakes, didn't put Kimi's wheels on the car before the 3 ' mark, and than fueled Massa for 60% of the race in changing conditions! ;)
Looking to the list I'm wondering if we are talking about Ferrari or Forti?! :rolleyes:

[Roamy]

:laugh:

I dream of Silver Arrows and wake up in a hot sweat with Rons image in my mind.

:)

dude get a woman !!! :eek: :D

[PolePosition_1]

Well, I don't know. He was 45 seconds off the lead after his Pit Stop drive through on lap 26 and struggling to overtake SB. he was 22 seconds off the points with a fast car and his team mate 3 places ahead.

He had got that to 35 seconds in 5 laps (Trulli was leading) but then made another mistake and dropped back to 45 seconds.

During the 2nd SC he was right behind HK in 13th but never progressed even though his partner made up places (until he lobbed it off)

He had the fastest car out there and had a chance to get back into the running. However, lack of overtaking slower cars and mistakes left him out of the points.

I can accept that it's the Tyres or the brakes but those are sorted now. i know he's not the best in the wet but it was dry and you cant say the car wasn't performing well because it was the class of the field and 0.5 seconds quicker than the 2nd fastest car in qualifying.

Really, it comes to a time when you have to say that he didn't perform when he had to battle his way through. He had the opportunity to take that race by the scruff of the neck and get a point or two as Lewis did the race before but gave up.


Yeah, though I think we should remember Kimi moved up through the pit stops ahead of him. I don't recall him doing any actual on track overtaking.

If we look at Kubica, who was directly infront of Massa, he also made hardly any progress.

So whilst I was disappointed to not see Massa progress after his unfortunate pit stop, its slightly unrealistic to have expected him to progress on a track where overtaking was near impossible unless you were 4s a lap quicker (if we use Trulli as a benchmark).

[PolePosition_1]

Let us count the mistakes by Ferrari team then.

engine failures at Australia, gearbox problem for kimi in qualy.
Problem fuelling Massa at Canada, but wasn`t that due to a problem not caused by Ferrari?
Problem for kimi at France, cost him two points and the win.
tactical mistake at Silverstone to leave drivers out on old inters.
engine failure for Massa at Hungary, caused by a problem not in the hands of Ferrari, but due to a faulty patch.
Engine failure for Kimi at Valencia, same reasons as above.
Singapore - problem when fuelling Massa.

Now, no team has ever had a perfect season. Ever. Even in 2002 Ferrari of Barrichello failed quite many times.

I also notice you have ignored one posters request to name all those 10 blunders you so loudly talked about.


Thank you for naming these, as Ioan obviously was unable.

Though yes these can be classed as errors, but these are not really fundamental errors I assumed Ioan was refering to.

For example Silverstone, wrong tyre call, but at the time, forecast was for heavy rain in 5 minutes, so it was the right call. Its what we call bad luck, not much they could really have done. Same with any strategy messed up by SC issues, its purely luck of the draw.

So sure, we can pin them down for 10 mistakes this year, if we going to include tactical errors and mechanical failures.

But Ioan, I'd like to point out, if these are the mistakes your refering to, they had more than 10 in 5 seasons when Todt was in charge.

[ioan]

Thank you for naming these, as Ioan obviously was unable.

And you say you are not picking on me?! :laugh:

BTW I even completed Garry's list of blunders, you just need to put your glasses on. :rotflmao:

[PolePosition_1]

And you say you are not picking on me?! :laugh:

BTW I even completed Garry's list of blunders, you just need to put your glasses on. :rotflmao:

No, I'm not picking on you, I saying you were unable to give me a list, I asked you twice, and you ignored it. So just pointing out a fact.

Though I don't really want to go off track into personal arguments, I'd rather keep on topic of F1. However, just to confirm, the type of mistakes you are refering to for this season. Are you standing by your statement that they only made on average 2 per season for 5 years when Todt was in charge, of similar mistakes to ones Garry and you have labelled?

[ioan]

No, I'm not picking on you, I saying you were unable to give me a list, I asked you twice, and you ignored it. So just pointing out a fact.

Maybe I had a reason to ignore it, maybe it was because the list was to obvious?
Maybe because I had other things to do than go through the full season and put together a way to long list of Ferrari blunders?
You could have said thans to Garry for providing it because I didn't, but no you had to go the high road:



... Ioan obviously was unable.

Well, I call that picking on someone, and I've had enough of you doing it while you keep denying it.
As I had enough of you saying that you would like Massa to win he WDC rather than Hamy, all this while you keep attacking Massa and praising Hamy.

Do you love contradicting yourself so much?

[PolePosition_1]

Maybe I had a reason to ignore it, maybe it was because the list was to obvious?
Maybe because I had other things to do than go through the full season and put together a way to long list of Ferrari blunders?
You could have said thans to Garry for providing it because I didn't, but no you had to go the high road:



Well, I call that picking on someone, and I've had enough of you doing it while you keep denying it.
As I had enough of you saying that you would like Massa to win he WDC rather than Hamy, all this while you keep attacking Massa and praising Hamy.

Do you love contradicting yourself so much?

Well, it obviously wasn't so obvious, as I had to ask you. I didn't realise you were refering to minor incidents as appears to be the case, in which case, your claim that Ferrari only made 10 similar errors in 5 years is totally wrong. They had more than 10 mechanical failures striaght off, if we're classifying strategy errors, pit errors etc, there is absolutely no chance they had 10 in 5 seasons as you have claimed.

And I don't understand about me not thanking Garry, I said "Thank you for naming these". I not sure what else I can do if thats not saying thank you.

I don't particularly recall me attacking Massa. I've criticised him when I believe him to be in the wrong, in same way I've criticised Lewis (Canada this year, his arrogance etc).

You can support a driver and be objective about it. My favourite driver is Alonso, but I'll openly admit that his actions last year with blackmailing Ron Dennis, I disapproved of it. I'm not going to agree with it just because I support him.

[Garry Walker]

The answer to his question was obvious that's why I didn't bother to answer it, and thanks for answering it, looks like there are more than 10 of them blunders.

PS: you forgot to mention their Monaco mistakes, didn't put Kimi's wheels on the car before the 3 ' mark, and than fueled Massa for 60% of the race in changing conditions! ;)
Looking to the list I'm wondering if we are talking about Ferrari or Forti?! :rolleyes:

No, I made it out as less than 10 blunders from Ferrari. It is not Ferraris problem if their supplier messes up, although of course, this will affect them.

In any case, there have been less blunders from Ferrari this year than there were in 2005 and 2006, with the "dream-team" still together.

[ioan]

No, I made it out as less than 10 blunders from Ferrari. It is not Ferraris problem if their supplier messes up, although of course, this will affect them.


:laugh: Excellent joke! :rotflmao:
Really? Who the heck chose the suppliers? Shock horror, the Ferrari management did it! :rolleyes:

PS: You have omitted a few of them blunders in your previous list, as mentioned by Jens and myself. So we are more like around 15 blunders for this season and it isn't yet over.

PPS: I'm a Ferrari fan, one that defends them when needed, but I reserve the right to criticize them when the management is performing like this season.

I will never praise mediocrity!

[ioan]

Well, it obviously wasn't so obvious, as I had to ask you. I didn't realise you were refering to minor incidents as appears to be the case, in which case, your claim that Ferrari only made 10 similar errors in 5 years is totally wrong. They had more than 10 mechanical failures striaght off, if we're classifying strategy errors, pit errors etc, there is absolutely no chance they had 10 in 5 seasons as you have claimed.

Give us a list of their strategic and reliability blunders from 2000 to 2004!
Maybe there are more than 10 maybe not, but at least we will see how little errors there were compared to this season.

And if you chose not to do it I'll understand it, and won't start attacking you. :p :

[Knock-on]

Well, it obviously wasn't so obvious, as I had to ask you. I didn't realise you were refering to minor incidents as appears to be the case, in which case, your claim that Ferrari only made 10 similar errors in 5 years is totally wrong. They had more than 10 mechanical failures striaght off, if we're classifying strategy errors, pit errors etc, there is absolutely no chance they had 10 in 5 seasons as you have claimed.

And I don't understand about me not thanking Garry, I said "Thank you for naming these". I not sure what else I can do if thats not saying thank you.

I don't particularly recall me attacking Massa. I've criticised him when I believe him to be in the wrong, in same way I've criticised Lewis (Canada this year, his arrogance etc).

You can support a driver and be objective about it. My favourite driver is Alonso, but I'll openly admit that his actions last year with blackmailing Ron Dennis, I disapproved of it. I'm not going to agree with it just because I support him.

Pole, you're wasting your time will just end up with high blood pressure as ioan chooses not to accept alternative views.

Threads started with titles like "Screw Ferrari" are destined to lack objectivity.

It is obvious that Ferrari are not having the best year to date but teams always have issues. It's part of racing.

Hell, look at the mistakes and points lost by McLaren this year for example. I bet they add up to more than Ferrari's but it's not worth trying to discuss it reasonably.

[Garry Walker]

:laugh: Excellent joke! :rotflmao:
Really? Who the heck chose the suppliers? Shock horror, the Ferrari management did it! :rolleyes:
If I am not mistaken, then every team in F1 uses that supplier company. Even the best suppliers can have problems, it is not unheard of in world.



PS: You have omitted a few of them blunders in your previous list, as mentioned by Jens and myself. So we are more like around 15 blunders for this season and it isn't yet over.
I have the number of blunders at around 8-9. Not 15.

I repeat, there were more blunders in 2005 and in 2006. Hell, even in 2002 and 2004 there were several blunders, it is impossible to have a perfect year in F1.



PPS: I'm a Ferrari fan, one that defends them when needed, but I reserve the right to criticize them when the management is performing like this season.

I will never praise mediocrity!
The management is doing fine. Ferrari has the fastest car.
If Ferrari is medicore, what do you call other teams? ?

[PolePosition_1]

Give us a list of their strategic and reliability blunders from 2000 to 2004!
Maybe there are more than 10 maybe not, but at least we will see how little errors there were compared to this season.

And if you chose not to do it I'll understand it, and won't start attacking you. :p :

Mate my memory isn't as good as that I'm afraid. But I'd bet decent money they had more than 10 errors during that period.

Your refering to strategic plans going wrong etc, I'm sorry, but its a sure thing that things did not go to perfect plan in that time.

We're getting slightly too involved into specific examples.

All I'm trying to do is make you aware of the situation. Ferrari didn't go to perfect plan back then, and isn't these days either. Because it rarely does for most teams.

If we're going to look at the type of errors your mentioning for this season. Fact is, your wrong, they did more than 10 errors in 5 seasons. If you wish to believe that, thats fair enough, but you'll be arguing a fact, its not even subjective.

Therefore, your basing your opinion on the current Ferrari management on a false belief. Surely anyone would want to base their opinions on the truth.

Me personally, I like the new style Ferrari team, it has a much more sporting approach, which is closer to my principles. Whilst its undeniable they haven't got the advantage as before, I think thats primarily to do with the regulations not moving at all for quite a long period, so common sense would suggest the other teams are going to catch up, the top teams have basically maximised the speed of the cars within the current regulations. Fact that Force India, on a budget 1/10th of Ferraris, can create a car from scratch at only 2s a lap slower highlights this.

So its only natural Ferrari's dominance wouldn't continue to that extent forever. Considering the fundamental changes with the team, I think they have managed amazingly well. We just have to look at 2005 where they got it all wrong, with the dream team in place, and their performances last year and this year are strong in comparison.

Should be noted Ferrari didn't win a tittle in 2005-06, only last year, with the new team in place. I think that says plenty.

[ioan]

Mate my memory isn't as good as that I'm afraid. But I'd bet decent money they had more than 10 errors during that period.

Your refering to strategic plans going wrong etc, I'm sorry, but its a sure thing that things did not go to perfect plan in that time.

We're getting slightly too involved into specific examples.

All I'm trying to do is make you aware of the situation. Ferrari didn't go to perfect plan back then, and isn't these days either. Because it rarely does for most teams.

If we're going to look at the type of errors your mentioning for this season. Fact is, your wrong, they did more than 10 errors in 5 seasons. If you wish to believe that, thats fair enough, but you'll be arguing a fact, its not even subjective.

Therefore, your basing your opinion on the current Ferrari management on a false belief. Surely anyone would want to base their opinions on the truth.

Me personally, I like the new style Ferrari team, it has a much more sporting approach, which is closer to my principles. Whilst its undeniable they haven't got the advantage as before, I think thats primarily to do with the regulations not moving at all for quite a long period, so common sense would suggest the other teams are going to catch up, the top teams have basically maximised the speed of the cars within the current regulations. Fact that Force India, on a budget 1/10th of Ferraris, can create a car from scratch at only 2s a lap slower highlights this.

So its only natural Ferrari's dominance wouldn't continue to that extent forever. Considering the fundamental changes with the team, I think they have managed amazingly well. We just have to look at 2005 where they got it all wrong, with the dream team in place, and their performances last year and this year are strong in comparison.

Should be noted Ferrari didn't win a tittle in 2005-06, only last year, with the new team in place. I think that says plenty.

I told you you I won't hold you responsible for not doing it, unlike you did.

However if you don't want to do it, than don't tell me I'm wrong, cause now I'll ask you to prove it. So behave yourself and start counting the blunders Ferrari did between 2000 and 2004 or admit that you are picking on me! :mad:

As for bringing up 2005 and 2006 I don't give 2 pennies on that, I asked you about 2000 to 2004 (exactly 5 seasons, as I mentioned before). :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

I told you you I won't hold you responsible for not doing it, unlike you did.

However if you don't want to do it, than don't tell me I'm wrong, cause now I'll ask you to prove it. So behave yourself and start counting the blunders Ferrari did between 2000 and 2004 or admit that you are picking on me! :mad:

As for bringing up 2005 and 2006 I don't give 2 pennies on that, I asked you about 2000 to 2004 (exactly 5 seasons, as I mentioned before). :rolleyes:

No Ioan, I'm afraid I'm not going to go through every single race been 2000 and 2004 and list you a number of errors.

If you genuinely believe that Ferrari only made 10 strategic, mechanical, pit stop, any kind of error between 2000 - 2004. I'm not going to try prove you wrong, because I know its not true, and I know you are factually wrong. If you wish to believe that thats fair enough. Base your opinions on invalid facts :)

As for not caring about 2005-06, you should take them into consideration. As your claiming the new management is bringing the team down, but your deciding not to give two pennies about the last years of the dream team, where they failed to win anything.

Its pretty worrying to an extent how some people are basing their opinions on selectively selecting the facts to reinforce them.

[ioan]

No Ioan, I'm afraid I'm not going to go through every single race been 2000 and 2004 and list you a number of errors.

The why pick on me when I didn't do the same when you asked me?
Also you can't claim that I'm wrong either without proving squat.
So put up or shut up. :rolleyes:

[jens]

Ferrari's strategical mistakes in 2000-2004?
I'm trying to recall them now...

2000? Well, I remember Schumacher's slow puncture in Spain, but this isn't a strategical blunder obviously...
2001? Umm... Barrichello losing a pit-duel against Coulthard in Austria is the worst strategical loss I can remember. :D
2002? Barrichello had lots of car failures, but any costly strategical miscalculations?

Three-stop strategy for MS in Oz'03 wasn't the right decision plus he came in to change inters too late plus inters itself for the start of the race weren't the best choice.
Brazil '03 - Barrichello ran out of fuel.
Italy '04 - inters for Barrichello was a doubtful decision and he changed them to grooved ones at least a lap too late.

There may have been more, because brain isn't a computer.

[pino]

PPS: I'm a Ferrari fan, one that defends them when needed, but I reserve the right to criticize them when the management is performing like this season.

I will never praise mediocrity!

Mediocrity ? :s Your Team is 1 point behind in Constructors Title Champ, and 7 points behind in the Driver Title Champ with 3 races left and plenty of chances to win both Titles and you call that mediocrity ? :s

You mind to tell me how long you have been a Ferrari fan, and how you rate the management of Ferrari in those 21 long years without a single win ?

Sorry ioan but a truly tifoso acts a bit different than they way you do ;)

btw can you post for me these 10 mistakes made by the menagement so far this year....please :)

[ioan]

Mediocrity ? :s Your Team is 1 point behind in Constructors Title Champ, and 7 points behind in the Driver Title Champ with 3 races left and plenty of chances to win both Titles and you call that mediocrity ? :s

You mind to tell me how long you have been a Ferrari fan, and how you rate the management of Ferrari in those 21 long years without a single win ?

Sorry ioan but a truly tifoso acts a bit different than they way you do ;)

btw can you post for me these 10 mistakes made by the menagement so far this year....please :)

I've been a fan of Ferrari since 1990 that's 19 years.

If being a tifoso means praising them when they blunder than I'm not a tifoso.
As I said above, I can not praise mediocrity.

I'll post the mistakes at latest tonight.

[jens]

Ferrari is not mediocre, they are a top team. They have their weaknesses and problems, but regardless of this they are still fighting for the titles. Ioan, would you be happier if Ferrari had the best strategy in every race, but lied 4th in the WCC?

If one day Ferrari struggles so badly that they can achieve only minor points on merit, then you will start missing current days, when they "may not have been perfect, but at least managed to win occasionally".

[ioan]

Ferrari is not mediocre, they are a top team. They have their weaknesses and problems, but regardless of this they are still fighting for the titles. Ioan, would you be happier if Ferrari had the best strategy in every race, but lied 4th in the WCC?

If one day Ferrari struggles so badly that they can achieve only minor points on merit, then you will start missing current days, when they "may not have been perfect, but at least managed to win occasionally".

1.They have excellent drivers, the best one I would say.
2.They have a superb car, maybe the best out there, so kudos to their engineers.
This is why they are in contention for the titles.

3.They also have a a mediocre race management team.
This is why they are 2nd in both championships while having the best drivers and the best car.

BMW are 3rd and are doing an excellent job.
Renault are 4th and are doing the best job possible given the circumstances.
STR are 6th and are clearly doing an excellent job too!
You don't see them throw race away with stupid strategy or stupid decisions, while they are pushing hard to catch up with the front runners.

Ferrari are now 2nd and doing a very amateurish job in the pits and on the pitwall.

I criticized them every time when they did things wrong, since the start of the season. And every time you came and said it's OK because they are still on top.

Now they aren't on top anymore after losing a 20+ points advantage!
You say it's OK cause they are still in the hunt for the title.

I'm curious what will you say after they lose both titles because of their poor management. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Here's a list with what I saw like mistakes made by the Ferrari team this season:

1. Australian GP: reliability problem for Kimi in Quali
2. Australian GP: reliability problem for both drivers during the race
3. Australian GP: didn't pit Kimi during the SC period but a few laps after, major race management mistake.
4. Monaco GP: Kimi's tires not fitted 3' before the race start = drive through penalty, major race management mistake
5. Monaco GP: Switch Felipe to a one stop strategy with 40 laps to go with changeable weather conditions, major race management mistake.
6. Canadian GP: refuelling problem for Massa
7. British GP: pit stop problem during qualy for Felipe, as a result starts 9th
8. British GP: keep drivers on worn intermediates, major race management mistake
9. Valencia: Kimi's engine brakes (they knew this will happen cause it was using the same faulty part that was used in Massa's broken engine from Hungary still they kept the same engine)
10. Singapore GP: we all saw what happened a few days ago.

I'm pretty sure there were a few other ones that I'm missing at this moment.

[jas123f1]

FFS what the heck is this team doing?

And people say they aren't worse than before, they are in fact the worse there is.

Be cool that’s racing - they will come back in next race - things happen - my tip still is that both tittles go to Ferrari. :)

[PolePosition_1]

The why pick on me when I didn't do the same when you asked me?
Also you can't claim that I'm wrong either without proving squat.
So put up or shut up. :rolleyes:

Because theres a difference in naming events from the last 6 month, and naming specific events from 8 years ago.

If you honestly believe Ferrari only had 10 errors throughout 2000-04 (thats errors such as mechanical, pit stop, strategic etc) - then fair enough. I'll take that into account when reading your posts in future. I'll take into account you live in a world where you have a selective memory regarding facts to back up your own opinion.

[ioan]

I'll take into account you live in a world where you have a selective memory regarding facts to back up your own opinion.

Personal attacks, personal attacks, personal attacks, that's all I get from you. And than you say you're not picking on me. :rolleyes:

[jas123f1]

Because theres a difference in naming events from the last 6 month, and naming specific events from 8 years ago.

If you honestly believe Ferrari only had 10 errors throughout 2000-04 (thats errors such as mechanical, pit stop, strategic etc) - then fair enough. I'll take that into account when reading your posts in future. I'll take into account you live in a world where you have a selective memory regarding facts to back up your own opinion.

Didn't you know that :D ioan is first a Ferrari/Schumi fan and then Ferrari/Massa fan and in case that Kimi win also Ferrari/Kimi fan - everything in Formula One is rotating around that.. therefore ioan has sometimes difficult remember Schumi’s mistakes and sometimes Schumi doesn't even "exist" before he game to Ferrari even if knows that Schumi game to Formula One all ready 1991 and won the WDC tittles all ready 1994 and 1995 with Benetton … and .. that it went actually 4 years at Ferrari before he won next time year 2000 - 9 ears after he started his F1 carrier ..
Sometimes people can get a feeling that ioan doesn’t like Lewis – but if we compare him and Schumi first 1,5 - 2 years in F1 – you can’t even speak of them in same day and we shouldn’t even forget that Schumi was a first driver and his team mate was forced to let him win every time till the WDC title was Schumi’s – who can forget Austria 2001 (except ioan :) – Schumi was in BIG lead and despite of that - Rubens was told to let him pas.. (Schumi had 57 points and on second place had 27) .. and more – if we want to remember – but that’s racing ..

Ok - it's little stupid (maybe) but same time quite fun.. :D

(And sorry ioan if i'm speaking about Your F1 sympathies :)

[wmcot]

Yeah, it looks to me that the management is trying to hard to prove their worth while showing that they aren't up to it, instead of working their way slowly through the real problems they've got.

Before all the Ferrari "fans" start jumping off the ship like it is sinking, we need to remember that even with MS, Todt, Brawn, etc. it took from 1996 to 2001 to win a WDC! Yes, a change in management will always shake up some things and cause problems, but to throw everybody out would be going back tothe Ferrari management of the team in the 1980's and early 1990's.

Success goes in cycles. Look at the successful Williams teams from the 1990's and look where they are now.

If you're really a fan, you should stick with your team even when they screw up and are not winning.

[ioan]

Before all the Ferrari "fans" start jumping off the ship like it is sinking, we need to remember that even with MS, Todt, Brawn, etc. it took from 1996 to 2001 to win a WDC! Yes, a change in management will always shake up some things and cause problems, but to throw everybody out would be going back tothe Ferrari management of the team in the 1980's and early 1990's.

Success goes in cycles. Look at the successful Williams teams from the 1990's and look where they are now.

If you're really a fan, you should stick with your team even when they screw up and are not winning.

I've been a Ferrari fan for 19 year now, and I won't jump of the sinking ship.
I will however criticize them when criticism is due. What is so difficult to understand?! :rolleyes:

[jens]

1.They have excellent drivers, the best one I would say.
2.They have a superb car, maybe the best out there, so kudos to their engineers.
This is why they are in contention for the titles.

3.They also have a a mediocre race management team.
This is why they are 2nd in both championships while having the best drivers and the best car.

BMW are 3rd and are doing an excellent job.
Renault are 4th and are doing the best job possible given the circumstances.
STR are 6th and are clearly doing an excellent job too!
You don't see them throw race away with stupid strategy or stupid decisions, while they are pushing hard to catch up with the front runners.

Ferrari are now 2nd and doing a very amateurish job in the pits and on the pitwall.

I criticized them every time when they did things wrong, since the start of the season. And every time you came and said it's OK because they are still on top.

Now they aren't on top anymore after losing a 20+ points advantage!
You say it's OK cause they are still in the hunt for the title.

I'm curious what will you say after they lose both titles because of their poor management. :rolleyes:

I agree that Ferrari's strategists are average or even below-average of the current F1 field. Maybe the management falls into the same category, although it's a bit harder to say that, because the success and acculumated points account give a general judgement to their work. 2009 gives a better answer for this. But despite some poor areas Ferrari generally is a top team.

Yes, after mid-season it seemed that at least the WCC is in the bag for Ferrari and no-one can stop them, but they have managed to gamble away their clear advantage with great consistency... almost like McLaren last year. So you see, it seems normal for top teams to have a dramatical loss. ;) After the season of 2007 it was McLaren's management, who was bashed to be the worst one of F1. Now you seem to feel their superiority due to gaining advantage over Ferrari. And in 2006 after midseason Renault looked unbeatable, but despite this the title fight became interesting by the end of the season. Surely Ferrari's mistakes annoy you, but tell me, which team doesn't make mistakes?

You mentioned Renault. Well, after 2007 they totally stopped their engine performance upgrades due to engine freeze unlike other manufacturers. This is a serious misjudgement by their management.

STR/RBR management has IMO made significant mistakes too. With one strong team Red Bull could be close to BMW in the WCC.

BMW has been doing a fine job yeah, but they aren't faultless either. I remember at least in 2007 they had clumsy pitstops at times. And if early concentration on 2009 doesn't pay off, they'll be heavily criticized for not making the most of the 2008 season.

I think you've too much got used to Team Schumacher era, when during some periods they totally dominated and took 1-2's in most of the races. Yes, it's obvious, current team is not as complete as the Team MS. But it seems Team MS era has heightened your expectations too high - you expect your team to totally dominate and if they don't do it, they are a dismal failure. You're pretty much a maximalist and this is a result of "too much success". If Ferrari falls to P5 in the WCC, you may start looking at the situation a bit differently... I'm simply trying to look at the positive side - they are still in the title fight. If they lose in the end, we may criticize them. But they haven't lost yet.

[ioan]

I think you've too much got used to Team Schumacher era, when during some periods they totally dominated and took 1-2's in most of the races. Yes, it's obvious, current team is not as complete as the Team MS. But it seems Team MS era has heightened your expectations too high - you expect your team to totally dominate and if they don't do it, they are a dismal failure. You're pretty much a maximalist and this is a result of "too much success". If Ferrari falls to P5 in the WCC, you may start looking at the situation a bit differently... I'm simply trying to look at the positive side - they are still in the title fight. If they lose in the end, we may criticize them. But they haven't lost yet.

I don't expect them to totally dominate, I expect them to be able to capitalize on an excellent car and on excellent drivers.
The most difficult part in F1 is to get the car right. Than you need great drivers.
And than you need not to make stupid mistakes.
They are lacking in the last department, the one that is the easiest to get right and the one that can negate all the advantage from the first two.

As I said, I can not praise their management on what they showed this season. I can praise the engineers and the driver(s) however.

[wmcot]

I've been a Ferrari fan for 19 year now, and I won't jump of the sinking ship.
I will however criticize them when criticism is due. What is so difficult to understand?! :rolleyes:

Criticism is fine and warranted in many instances. We also have to have a measure of patience as a team goes through changes. Those who are placed in charge will make mistakes (as they did last year even though they won the WDC and WCC) and hopefully they will learn from them. That's the critical part!

As far as the pit light system is concerned, the team began that system thinking it would be an improvement. Now that they have used it under the pressure of race situations, they will have to re-think the system and put changes in place or abandon it. This is really no different than any other modification done to any system or even to the car.

[gravity]

Remember when Jean Alesi raced the Ferrari in the wet with the novel "traction control" system? Everyone was praising the system and how well it worked. That same system cost them many races.
Ferrari were also the first to implement the semi-automatic "paddles" on their wheel. That idea worked really well... everyone is using it now. I recall them having problems when that was initially implemented.
When MS joined Ferrari, they went from the V12 to the V10 engine. They had one of the most powerful engines on the grid before the change. The new V10 was less powerful and the other car components were not used to the new vibrations that the V10 was churning out. This 'change' cost them too.
Surely there are more examples of them 'trend setting'?
In all of these cases, they persisted in developing the idea (even though the arm-chair expert may have sneered at their initial failures), and they got to #1 with it.
Don't, as an arm-chair expert, write off the pit-light system until Ferrari do. If they find a winning solution, it won't take long before all the teams start implementing it.
One of the simple solutions to their fuel rig issue would be an automatic switch on the car side of the fuel connector which shows the driver a light while the rig is plugged in. As soon as the rig comes out, the light goes off (rather than rely on a mechanic to press a button). As a backup, have a lollipop man standing doing nothing until there is a problem. If the driver pulls away and the lollipop man sees a problem (like a faulty light sending the driver off again, or oncoming traffic), then he can drop the lollipop on the driver and the team can recover.
I do see the future in the lights once the problems have been ironed out. Lollipop men releasing cars is both time consuming, and, its not as if lollipop men have never sent cars off with the fuel rig still plugged in.

[ioan]

The problem with their lights system is that it isn't automatic at all. It requires the OK of 3 people to give a green light.

The lollipop man solution involves only one decision taker.
The lights system involves 3, thus the probability for errors is also 3x higher.

It's a clear cut for me.

[PolePosition_1]

The problem with their lights system is that it isn't automatic at all. It requires the OK of 3 people to give a green light.

The lollipop man solution involves only one decision taker.
The lights system involves 3, thus the probability for errors is also 3x higher.

It's a clear cut for me.

Thats the thing, with the lollipop system, when the 4 tyre guys and fuel man are done, they put a hand up in the air saying they're done. Then the lollipop man gives the final go-ahead.

With that system, its the same, only difference is when 4 tyres are done, and fuel is done, it goes to green, therefore cutting out the reaction time of the lollipop man from seeing his crew signalling they're done.

With Valencia, it was Kimi's driver error of going before it went green. With Massa, it was a human decision which let Massa out unsafely. And again in Singapore, it was a human decision which let him out with hose still attached.

So the system itself hasn't actually failed yet. As all errors stem from human decisions, which could have easily have been made by a lollipop man.

So I don't think its a case of get rid of the system, I think its just a matter of improving the decision making of the pit crew.

[ioan]

Thats the thing, with the lollipop system, when the 4 tyre guys and fuel man are done, they put a hand up in the air saying they're done. Then the lollipop man gives the final go-ahead.

With that system, its the same, only difference is when 4 tyres are done, and fuel is done, it goes to green, therefore cutting out the reaction time of the lollipop man from seeing his crew signalling they're done.

With Valencia, it was Kimi's driver error of going before it went green. With Massa, it was a human decision which let Massa out unsafely. And again in Singapore, it was a human decision which let him out with hose still attached.

So the system itself hasn't actually failed yet. As all errors stem from human decisions, which could have easily have been made by a lollipop man.

So I don't think its a case of get rid of the system, I think its just a matter of improving the decision making of the pit crew.

The system itself is faster as it eliminates time needed by the lollipop man to get out of the way, but they have 3 times more decision making individuals involved.

[PolePosition_1]

The system itself is faster as it eliminates time needed by the lollipop man to get out of the way, but they have 3 times more decision making individuals involved.

Well, with a lollipop man, when the guy doing the tyre has finished, he puts his hand up in the air. Making a decision. With the traffic light system, when the man has done a tyre, he pushes a button confirming he finished.

So for sure a decision is made, but its not much different to a lollipop man.

Only difference I can see is you have a man overlooking everything and making a final decision. With hindsight, this is safer but slightly slower. With the traffic light system, if they could improve the performance of the pit crew, to make less errors, they could essentially have the best of both worlds.

[Knock-on]

http://www.rbssport.com/f1StrategyGameFiles/

Well, to all those people that fancy being F1 stratagists :D

I only managed 148th at Silverstone :(

[Dave B]

356th at Monaco. Stupid safety car!

Edit: 95th when I changed to a 3-stop strategy :D

[Knock-on]

356th at Monaco. Stupid safety car!

Edit: 95th when I changed to a 3-stop strategy :D

I wonder how this strategy will change if the new rules from the OWG work :D

Possibly not for Monaco but most of the others should be interesting.