Use .... A .... Sodding .... Lollipop

[Daniel]

Ferrari, please for the sake of the championship and the safety of your pit crew use a sodding lollipop system.

[yodasarmpit]

Surely Ferrari will ditch the electronic pit release system now.

Shame for Massa and the refueling guy, just glad no one was really hurt.


Ferrari fans must be gutted, due to this system, Massa looked certain for a win, has now been dropped to near last.

[Daniel]

Thankyou for listening :)

[markabilly]

You are welcome

[Daniel]

You are welcome
I was saying that Ferrari listened :p

[Powered by Cosworth]

Curse my bladder. Did they dust off the lollipop for the second stop?

[MrJan]

Ferrari should have listened weeks back when everyone told them that they were stupid

[wedge]

Even the lollipop system is flawed. DC mowed down the refuelling guys because the lollipop too had itchy trigger fingers though DC reacted quickly to his credit.

Part an parcel of racing I'm afraid.

[markabilly]

I was saying that Ferrari listened :p


Sorry, but for the record I always use a lollipop

[MrJan]

Even the lollipop system is flawed. DC mowed down the refuelling guys because the lollipop too had itchy trigger fingers though DC reacted quickly to his credit.

Part an parcel of racing I'm afraid.

More effort to lift a lollipop than press a button though. There will always be problems but I think that Ferrari are showing that the light system creates more cock ups.

[Dave B]

I feel for Massa: even though I don't want him to win the Championship I also don't want him to lose because of stupid avoidable mistakes by his team.

It was obvious to most of us "armchair fans" months ago that the traffic-lights were a flawed system, and for a top team like Ferrari to be throwing points away like that is baffling.

Let's hope that their mechanic isn't seriously injured, and let's also hope that common sense returns in time for Fuji.

[AndyRAC]

To have one mistake is unfortunate, but for it to happen again really is unforgivable. That could cost Felipe the WDC.

I think there is a saying about trying to be too clever - Ferrari have been too clever. Simple is often best - Lollipop!

[veeten]

by ditching the lollipop for an electronic system, they looked like suckers this race.

A new venue is not the place to test such things, and having the pit crews work with such equipment in a practice environment would be a lot better to insure such incidents do not happen, muchaless repeat themselves.

just a thought...

[Garry Walker]

I have not understood this system at all, I mean, why would they need it? how much time does it give? Almost nothing. Yet the risk is so great, whereas the reward is small.

That is like investing your life savings in a lottery ticket with winning chances being 1 out of 1000.

[Somebody]

They should have both the electronic system AND the lollipop. That way, if the lollipop man twitches too early OR the lights glitch, the other should still say "Don't Go".

[PSfan]

I was thinking about this more, I would like to see Ferrari add something to their rig so that the Drivers can see behind them (Similar to what the curved mirror ferrari used on their lollipops before...)

But even more then that, I think F1 should use spotters like nascar... someone in constant radio communication with the driver who can say over the radio when it is safe to go instead of someone holding a big stick who has the potential to be run over...

[Mickey T]

whatever else they do, they need to apologise to adrian sutil.

he must be getting sick and tired of seeing Massa's Ferrari bursting out of the scrum and pushing him towards the wall.

[Whyzars]

Maybe all teams should be using the Ferrari "lights" system but have a safety delay installed for all - either that or have the stewards release the cars.

[SGWilko]

I think they should keep the current system. I've not laughed so much since the Lee Evans XL tour.

And then Kimi forgets how to drive. Priceless. I wonder if McLaren are paying Kimi's salary?

And then listening to the Ferrari guy being interviewed by Louise, he should be G Browns right hand man, a natural politician.

Still, worse things happen at sea...... take the Titanic for example......

Makes the license fee money well spent.

[SGWilko]

have the stewards release the cars.

Don't be silly, their bigger eejuts than the Ferrari pit crew.....

[jens]

I agree that they should ditch the electronic pit lights system. They are having troubles in almost every single race with this. Just how long do they keep going, experimenting and... ultimately failing?

[fandango]

I find it hard to pass judgement on this before knowing what exactly happened. Massa reacted correctly to the green light, but why was it green? Was it a failure in the sensor on the fuel rig, or was there a manual override used to try to get him out in the (very small) gap in the traffic on the pitlane? It seems that it's possible no-one was watching the crew, and if that's the case then the same thing could easily happen with a lollipop system (as happened with DC at Red Bull).

[Mickey T]

true, but the human element in DC's crew recovered in time to minimise the damage.

unlike the digital crew at ferrari

[Dave B]

Makes the license fee money well spent.
It's not on the Beeb until next year :p

[SGWilko]

It's not on the Beeb until next year :p

I know, but our sdrawkcab rules over mean we HAVE to have a licence, whether we watch Auntie or not.

Did you hear about the skint guy who sold his telly to buy a license....? :p :

[markabilly]

Maybe all teams should be using the Ferrari "lights" system but have a safety delay installed for all - either that or have the stewards release the cars.


Stewards release the cars? Great idea, I love it.

Now even races without SC periods will be exciting.

However to avoid claims of unfairness, each pit will require a committee of three (aka 3 blind mice) who will each have their own button to push at the exact same moment or it is a no-go, until they get their timing down right.

See it is easy to solve any problem if you give it enough thought.......I see, said the blind man.....

[N. Jones]

I noticed during Kimi's last stop that they were using a lollipop man. Maybe they will ditch that light system finally...

[jso1985]

Don't be silly, their bigger eejuts than the Ferrari pit crew.....

Indeed...

[philipbain]

I agree that Ferrari's traffic light system is plain dangerous compared to a guy with a lollipop, but the only way to make F1 pit stops safer is to ban refueling.

F1 cars can be designed with a tank that can take the car through the whole race, it was the norm in the 60's, 70's (refueling was allowed but it took so long it wasn't worth doing) and between 1984 and 1993 when refueling was banned.

Another spin-off benefit of this is that the drivers have to setup the car to work at differing fuel loads (a full load makes the car weigh approx 200kg more than when its empty) and it can mix up qualifying as different cars will run comparatively better on full tanks than when they are running a qualifying fuel load. It would also end this qualifying with race fuel load nonsense, people want to see the cars going as quickly as possible when they are gunning for pole, not going a few seconds slower than they were in a session to decide the top 10!!

[call_me_andrew]

I think Ferrari's system was sabotaged by the lollipop guild.

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/MyWebFilms/Drama/WizardLollipop.jpg

[markabilly]

I think Ferrari's system was sabotaged by the lollipop guild.

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/MyWebFilms/Drama/WizardLollipop.jpg
the one in the red to the left is clearly kimi cause he looks like he is alseep....

[ioan]

Even the lollipop system is flawed. DC mowed down the refuelling guys because the lollipop too had itchy trigger fingers though DC reacted quickly to his credit.

Part an parcel of racing I'm afraid.

The lolipop man can still try to stop the car if he realizes that something is wrong, the lights system can't cause as soon as he goes the driver does not watch it anymore.

[ioan]

They should have both the electronic system AND the lollipop. That way, if the lollipop man twitches too early OR the lights glitch, the other should still say "Don't Go".

They sure need a fool proof system at Ferrari.

[ioan]

I noticed during Kimi's last stop that they were using a lollipop man. Maybe they will ditch that light system finally...

Too late, way too late.

[gravity]

The light system does have its benefits. Ferrari wouldn't have invested their time and money in that system if it didn't have some sort of benefit.

The reason that the lollipop saved DC from the same issue is that the guy holding the lollipop could recover and slam the lollipop back down at DC. DC then stopped again and the crew recovered. It looks to me like the light system does not have a "call back" option. Once its green, the driver doesn't get a warning that something has gone wrong (like a lollipop slamming on his head).
If they could sort some sort of warning system out for the lights system, we might see it spread to the other teams. Until then, we can expect the rest of the teams to look across at Ferrari and wait for them to iron the bugs out before they try it themselves.

[ArrowsFA1]

Massa, whose team use a light system instead of the traditional lollipop, said the problem had been caused by a human error.
"Well, the problems we had today was not because of the signals," he said. "The problem we had was a human being. It can happen with the signaling and it can happen with the lollipop. We can maybe go back to the lollipop, but that's not really the problem we had today.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71001

[Mark]

They gave the impression on the TV coverage that the lights we actually controlled by the refueller, rather than one man, i.e. when the fuel is done he signals he's done, and on this occasion he signalled done when he wasn't.

[PolePosition_1]

I personally feel for this poor traffic light system. It hasn't actually done anything wrong since its been implemented.

In Valencia, it was Kimi who went before it went green, so was a driver error.

And with Massa, his problems in Valencia and Singapore, again both human errors. The traffic light going green in both instances was controlled by a human, who can say whether it would have happened with a lollipop. If the system hasn't actually failed, and its human error causing the problem, surely Ferrari have to look at their crew, and in particular the final decision maker who gives the green light.

[Daniel]

I personally feel for this poor traffic light system. It hasn't actually done anything wrong since its been implemented.
You have feelings for an inanimate object? :confused:

:p

[Mark]

I personally feel for this poor traffic light system. It hasn't actually done anything wrong since its been implemented.

In Valencia, it was Kimi who went before it went green, so was a driver error.

And with Massa, his problems in Valencia and Singapore, again both human errors. The traffic light going green in both instances was controlled by a human, who can say whether it would have happened with a lollipop. If the system hasn't actually failed, and its human error causing the problem, surely Ferrari have to look at their crew, and in particular the final decision maker who gives the green light.

A system which is more likely to produce human error is still a bad system, even if it did function as designed.

[PolePosition_1]

You have feelings for an inanimate object? :confused:

:p

Lol, the amount of stick its getting for working, I do feel for it :)

[PolePosition_1]

A system which is more likely to produce human error is still a bad system, even if it did function as designed.

Yeah, but its shown as being able to save them 0.3s per pitstop. If they can get the decision maker to be more reliable, it'll be a win win situation. Fact that a lollipop man can let car out into path of another, or lollipop man can have a knee jerk reaction causing the driver to act. I don't think the system does produce higher risk of human error, I just think Ferrari have been pretty poor at pit stops recently, and the system has been automatically blamed as its different to the others.

If you look at it logically, I can't really see why the traffic light system is the cause for these problems.

[MAX_THRUST]

Most Dangerous Team In The Pitts Fact!!!!!!

[MAX_THRUST]

What penallties are going to be issued to the team?

When is there system going to be banned as unsafe?

When are they going to stop exiting the pitts and impeding other teams?

I think it is time for F1 to rethink how many people are in the pitts, before someone gets hurt by a Ferrari.

One guy on each wheel, two fuel men and hydraulic jack system in all cars, it work in CART/CCWS for years, with the front wheel guy being the one who calls when to go. You still get mistakes, and the pitt stops are longer.

Something is wrong with the FErrari press man, he kept denying the light was green even when told millios of us had seen it on a replay, how does the FIA cover that one up? Sorry meant Ferrrari.......

[Dave B]

The question which needs answering is whether, having given the driver the green light, the team manager is capable of reversing that decision if he becomes aware of a problem such as a stuck fuel-hose or an impending dangerous release.

With a lollipop it's a doddle to slam it back down again, as we've seen happen many times in the past.

If there's no such facility then the system is inherently dangerous and should be modified or banned. If there is such a facility then Ferrari are simply hopeless at using it.

Either way it is potentially costing them a championship.

[SGWilko]

All cars in the pit should be serviced while raised off the ground. The car should not be released back down UNTIL the hose is removed or all the wheels are back on the wagon - whichever takes the longest.

Everyone plays by the same rules - so no advantage, and the car cannot be driven away while up on the jacks.

Is that too simple for FIA approval.....?

[ioan]

All cars in the pit should be serviced while raised off the ground. The car should not be released back down UNTIL the hose is removed or all the wheels are back on the wagon - whichever takes the longest.

Everyone plays by the same rules - so no advantage, and the car cannot be driven away while up on the jacks.

Is that too simple for FIA approval.....?

There is an inherent danger to this as long as the car is raised by a human operator. What if the driver makes a mistake and engages a gear while the car is not yet down? The guy in front of the car will be ran over, no question about it.

If they go back to hydraulic jacks than I agree with this proposal.

PS: Wouldn't it be easier to ban refueling? Sure it would, but what about the race fuel qualifying system and all that rubbish that comes with it? We would lose the suspense artificially generated by this, and I know Bernie wouldn't be happy if he had to bring us the first race on the moon or on Mars in order to keep the money flowing!

[SGWilko]

the first race on the moon or on Mars

I read about that in the NOTW..... ;)

[bigcliff]

All cars in the pit should be serviced while raised off the ground. The car should not be released back down UNTIL the hose is removed or all the wheels are back on the wagon - whichever takes the longest.

Everyone plays by the same rules - so no advantage, and the car cannot be driven away while up on the jacks.

Is that too simple for FIA approval.....?

You sound like someone who has had aircraft engineering experience.
Most modern big jets will have a number of computer based systems that will not allow an end result without all or the majority of sensors in agreement.....so in theory you cannot get the gear of the aircraft to swing up unless it is fully off the ground (flying).
The Red team will never revert to the simple methods.
It is not in their rule book at all they will get it right eventually but don't ask them to go back to the simple stuff.

[bigcliff]

Unless the rules are set for everyone in the interest of safety...its free for all!!

[V12]

I agree that banning refuelling would be a win-win-win situation.

1) It would be safer
2) It would make the races more interesting
3) It would get rid of the stupid race-fuel qualifying session and make qualifying more meaningful and interesting again

Of course, reasons 2) and 3) dictate that refuelling will never be banned.

[SGWilko]

You sound like someone who has had aircraft engineering experience.
Most modern big jets will have a number of computer based systems that will not allow an end result without all or the majority of sensors in agreement.....so in theory you cannot get the gear of the aircraft to swing up unless it is fully off the ground (flying).
The Red team will never revert to the simple methods.
It is not in their rule book at all they will get it right eventually but don't ask them to go back to the simple stuff.

I've built a few paper planes in my time.....

It just seems to make sense - what is the one way to be sure the car cannot pull away? Keep it off the ground!

[Whyzars]

I agree that banning refuelling would be a win-win-win situation.

1) It would be safer
2) It would make the races more interesting
3) It would get rid of the stupid race-fuel qualifying session and make qualifying more meaningful and interesting again

Of course, reasons 2) and 3) dictate that refuelling will never be banned.

Agree.
Not sure.
Don't really agree (I think Q1, Q2 and Q3 are the only things predictably interesting). :)


Banning refuelling might really show F1's green credentials. With KERS and the ensuing economy runs the cars could be sold as hybrids. Yippeeeee.

Pity about the million watts they've probably burned so the European TV audience would have another viewing option on a Sunday. I'm thinking that a new colour may have been born - F1 green. Its not really green but more of a not-green-in-a-million-years type green if you know what I mean... :)