Speech on Financial Recovery by George Bush

[gloomyDAY]

In case you missed the footage. (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE48O0FP20080925)

$700 Billion to buyout worthless assets and hold them until (?) have the money to repurchase them from the government. I smell a scam, especially since the Bill presented from the Bush administration regards oversight as an inconvenience, therefore, proceeding without any judicial or legislative review. Seems like another nightmare scenario from the 80's when the Republicans had America's financial future in the cusp of their hands. Does anyone remember Reaganomics? What a nightmare.

Compared to today's problem, Reaganomics was more like a wet dream. What is scary is that $700 Billion is a silly little number compared to what the actual debt the U.S. government will accumulate. Does anyone object? I mean, this is the government, and being the U.S. government, they cannot proceed without an overabundance of red-tape nor inflated spending. So, the number? More like $1 Trillion....? I doubt anyone will ever know.

This foul-up cannot be swept under the rug.
I'm going to buy a rifle and stock up on some ammunition, just in case.

[Jag_Warrior]

From what I've read, some executives of the larger financial firms will resist or refuse the government handout, er... I mean, bailout, if they can't keep their bonuses and pay packages in place. That is truly amazing! They'd rather let their firms die and the American economy take a crippling blow if it means that they can't get bonuses (for bankrupting their firms.) :rolleyes:

I also just saw a portion of an interview with Sarah Palin and Katie Couric. I now see why the McCain people are keeping her away from the media. She makes Dan Quayle look smart. Can you imagine John "Father Time" McCain croaking and leaving this genius in charge of our nation? I'm not supporting either candidate. But the thought of Moose Girl even knowing where the button for the nukes is makes me hella nervous! I agree with McCain's politics more than Obama's. But I have to question McCain's decision making abilities. And now I hear that he has suspended his campaign... so that he can return to Washington and help solve the nation's issues. What??? He hasn't taken part in a vote since April. I thought he was an OK guy. But maybe he's just another flake.

The problem that will be faced by ALL of these people is that the American people are beginning to lose faith in Congress and even worse, IMO, the framework of the economic system on which this nation has been built.

[Hondo]

I'll support the bailout if every politician and all 12 members of the Fed that vote for it along with the directors and managers of every company and agency that receives bailout cash are willing to, and agree to pledge their lives and their and their families personal assets and estates up as collateral to prove their faith in the success of the plan.

Other than that, no.

[BDunnell]

I agree with McCain's politics more than Obama's. But I have to question McCain's decision making abilities. And now I hear that he has suspended his campaign... so that he can return to Washington and help solve the nation's issues. What??? He hasn't taken part in a vote since April.

Yes, this is very generous of him, isn't it! What a pointless gesture on McCain's part.

[Daniel]

Ben. Don't underestimate the effect that a meaningless gesture can have on voters.

[Tomi]

From what I've read, some executives of the larger financial firms will resist or refuse the government handout, er... I mean, bailout, if they can't keep their bonuses and pay packages in place. That is truly amazing! They'd rather let their firms die and the American economy take a crippling blow if it means that they can't get bonuses (for bankrupting their firms.) :rolleyes:

Greedy ba§tards, but your government cant do much about it, if they dont bail out theese casinos, the money usa borrows from China and else where would become very expensive.

[Daniel]

We're doing the wrong jobs Tomi. I wish I could make that much money for making a mess of things :)

[BDunnell]

Ben. Don't underestimate the effect that a meaningless gesture can have on voters.

I quite agree.

[Dave B]

I now see why the McCain people are keeping [Sarah Palin] away from the media. She makes Dan Quayle look smart. Can you imagine John "Father Time" McCain croaking and leaving this genius in charge of our nation?
Sadly the voters over there appear to be falling for style over substance. A gun-toting anti-abortion creationist with an apparent feat of international travel in a position of power should be unthinkable.

[Alexamateo]

In case you missed the footage. (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE48O0FP20080925)

$700 Billion to buyout worthless assets and hold them until (?) have the money to repurchase them from the government.

Well, they are not worthless, they are afterall tied to real estate. The problem I see is "fair value" accounting. It's great when prices are rising, but IMO it leads to "phantom" gains, when prices are falling, it leads to "phantom" losses.

That coupled with with FASB 157 (the "mark to market" rule) leads to a death spiral for these companies. This rule went into effect last November, and it's interesting to read some articles criticizing this rule, and predicting this exact thing we see happening. They have to price these real estate securities as if they had to be sold today, and since the market is crashing so to speak, "today" it would only bring "fire sale" prices. Therefore the companies are forced to mark the assets on their balance sheets even lower, leading to more sell-offs etc etc. In other words, a self-predicting death spiral, just like bank runs in the 1920's, It's irrational, but it's happening.

In hindsight, securitization of a basically illiquid asset such as a mortgage loan is probably not a good idea. Put another way, My house may have been worth $200,000, but if I had to sell it, it might bring only $150,000 sometime in the next couple of months, and if I had to sell it in the next 24 hours, it might only bring $75,000. This is the problem of "mark to market", when the market is collapsing. The reality is though, that I don't have to sell my house today, and the mortgage is performing like it's supposed to, i. e. I am paying it off with interest on time every month. This is true, even with sub-prime ARM mortgages, with 94% performing. 98.5-99% of other type loans are performing.

In this case, reviving something like the Resolution Trust Corporation to hold assets and sell them in an orderly fashion is not such a bad idea, although I doubt the government is going turn a profit as some say they could, the actual losses to taxpayers is probably going to be minimal.

The causes of this are so complex, over regulation in some areas, under-regulation in others, lenders being required to make loans they otherwise would not have to some disadvantaged group or area. Government making requirements without thinking through all the consequences (FASB 157 was instituted following Enron, showing once again that hard cases make bad law.) Financial markets inventing new types of securities without thinking through all the consequences (Hey housing is performing strong, let's invent mortgage backed securities!) Greed and the herd mentality of investors in general. Good gosh, where do we start? What a mess!

[BTCC Fan#1]

Interesting article i've just read. http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/politicalinsider/2008/09/is-mccain-preparing-to-vote-ag.html

However, the Obama campaign also released a "set of principles" that Obama wanted McCain to support. However, Marc Ambinder reports McCain would not agree to this so they were left on "the cutting room floor."

Here are the five principles outlines by Obama:


First, there must be oversight. We should not hand over a blank check to the discretion of one man. We support an independent, bipartisan board to ensure accountability and complete transparency.

Second, we need to protect taxpayers. There should be a path for taxpayers to recover their money, and to turn a profit if Wall Street prospers.

Third, no Wall Street executive should profit from taxpayer dollars. This plan cannot be a welfare program for CEOs whose greed and irresponsibility has contributed to this crisis.

Fourth, we must help families who are struggling to stay in their homes. We cannot bail out Wall Street without helping millions of families facing foreclosure on Main Street.

Fifth, we both agree that this financial rescue package should move on its own without any earmarks or other measures. We have different views about the need for other action, but this must be a clean bill.

Interestingly, when President Bush addressed the nation just minutes later, he essentially agreed to the exact same set of principles in his own speech. So the question is: Why wouldn't McCain agree to a fairly innocuous, Mom and apple pie set of conditions for a bill?

Democrats fear this morning that McCain is setting up a scenario in which he will vote against the bill, rally conservatives to his side and, most importantly, distance himself from both President Bush and Congress before the election.

Seems like McCain is taking a pretty stupid risk, one could argue he's putting political gain ahead of the US economy.. As for Sarah Palin, the woman is clearly totally barking, and the idea that she could end up running the US is frankly terrifying.

[Valve Bounce]

From what I've read, some executives of the larger financial firms will resist or refuse the government handout, er... I mean, bailout, if they can't keep their bonuses and pay packages in place. That is truly amazing! They'd rather let their firms die and the American economy take a crippling blow if it means that they can't get bonuses (for bankrupting their firms.) :rolleyes:

I also just saw a portion of an interview with Sarah Palin and Katie Couric. I now see why the McCain people are keeping her away from the media. She makes Dan Quayle look smart. Can you imagine John "Father Time" McCain croaking and leaving this genius in charge of our nation? I'm not supporting either candidate. But the thought of Moose Girl even knowing where the button for the nukes is makes me hella nervous! I agree with McCain's politics more than Obama's. But I have to question McCain's decision making abilities. And now I hear that he has suspended his campaign... so that he can return to Washington and help solve the nation's issues. What??? He hasn't taken part in a vote since April. I thought he was an OK guy. But maybe he's just another flake.

The problem that will be faced by ALL of these people is that the American people are beginning to lose faith in Congress and even worse, IMO, the framework of the economic system on which this nation has been built.

I'd definitely prefer this guy advise the future President which buttons to push: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2FCJ7zWEQ

:eek:

[Valve Bounce]

Interesting article i've just read. http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/politicalinsider/2008/09/is-mccain-preparing-to-vote-ag.html


Seems like McCain is taking a pretty stupid risk, one could argue he's putting political gain ahead of the US economy.. As for Sarah Palin, the woman is clearly totally barking, and the idea that she could end up running the US is frankly terrifying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2FCJ7zWEQ

This is infinitely better!!

[Jag_Warrior]

I'd definitely prefer this guy advise the future President which buttons to push: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2FCJ7zWEQ

:eek:

Palin has some religious skeletons in her closet too. I don't think that Obama and Wright are exactly pals anymore. In fact, I believe there is some serious bad blood there now. And while Obama has denounced Wright, I haven't heard that Palin has denounced any of the goofy things going on at the Wasilla Assembly of God. I also haven't heard that she has denounced her husband's (and maybe her own) affiliation with the Alaska Independence Party; a secessionist group that believes that Alaska should separate from the United States.

Other than the fact that she is a good shot, I have yet to hear anything about Palin that gives me the warm & fuzzies. Obama's beliefs are far to the left of my own. But I do believe that he is very intelligent. I believe that McCain is fairly intelligent as well. Same with Biden. Palin? I think she may be a few fries short of a Happy Meal. Considering McCain's age and health, I do think her fitness to serve must be considered. And right now it seems that she may not even have as much on the ball as the village idiot that we have in office now. Having someone potentially even dumber than Bush as President just doesn't seem like the way to go in these troubled times.

It would be interesting to know why McCain's campaign is SO limiting media access to Palin. Personally, I think she should have the opportunity to explain her views on the current financial crisis. Does she have a basic understanding of macro economics? We know that she's never heard of the Bush Doctrine. Does she know the difference between fiscal and monetary policy? She continues to claim that Alaska's geographic location in relation to Russia gives her foreign policy experience. Maybe she thinks that her experience balancing her checking account gives her fiscal policy experience. :rolleyes:

What's sad about McCain is that there were a number of conservative women out there who would have made good running mates. But instead of asking someone like Elizabeth Dole or Kay Bailey Hutchinson, he selects this empty headed flake, who compares herself to the absolute dumbest of dog breeds, thinking that it makes her sound kewl & tough. God help us all.

By the way, Washington Mutual has failed and was seized by the FDIC today. Looks like JP Morgan will pick up many of the assets.

[Mark]

They are constantly on the news bemoaning 'crashing house prices', and yet, I look at what is nearby us and the prices are still absolutely rediculous. Comes to something when our combined incoming is in excess of £50,000/year and we can only afford a run down 2-bed terraced house :s . 10 years ago we'd have a mansion :s

[Mark]

They are constantly on the news bemoaning 'crashing house prices', and yet, I look at what is nearby us and the prices are still absolutely rediculous. Comes to something when our combined incoming is in excess of £50,000/year and we can only afford a run down 2-bed terraced house :s . 10 years ago we'd have a mansion :s

[Daniel]

They are constantly on the news bemoaning 'crashing house prices', and yet, I look at what is nearby us and the prices are still absolutely rediculous. Comes to something when our combined incoming is in excess of £50,000/year and we can only afford a run down 2-bed terraced house :s . 10 years ago we'd have a mansion :s
I don't think many houses are selling. People are still holding onto the idea that their house is worth what it was worth a year ago. The only ones that are selling are the reasonably priced ones or the ones being reposessed.

Personally I don't get it. If you're selling to move into another property then if your house loses 10% then the house you're wanting to move into is going to lose ~10%. There was this house Caroline and I were a little interested in and it's been for sale for about 2 years now for the same price :mark: I can understand if you're holding onto a property as a nest egg to retire on because you need a certain value of money from it and if you do need that much money then don't sell now! With a big mortgage being so difficult for people to get you have bugger all chance of getting what you'd have got back in July '07. Simple as that really.

People blame the banks for this whole mess and they must take the lions share of the blame along with the regulatory authorities who allowed people to borrow 5x their income and so on or 125% of the value of their houses. But what about the fools who just went out and asked or paid silly amounts for houses? They're just as guilty of creating the housing bubble that was only going to burst in the very near future.

I don't know if I mentioned it on the forum but last year I worked for about 4 months in a job where we qualified sales leads for mortgage advisers and IIRC we used to operate on a maximum multiple of 5x a single persons income if they had a certain amount of deposit and 4x if they had nothing and something like 3.5x and 4x for a combined income. The amount of people you'd get on the phone who simply had no idea what they could afford and were wanting to get a mortgage at ridiculous multiples of up to 10x without even having a deposit or having like 1% deposit was amazing. It was never nice telling someone younger than myself with a wife or husband and a kid or two that there was no way in hell that they would be able to afford what they wanted.

My next job (in the same company) was providing technical support for our mortgage sourcing software. You'd get mortgage advisors calling up saying that they put the clients details in and they were getting no mortgages coming up which fit the criteria. It would turn out that their income multiple was something silly like 6x and even banks like Northern Rock who were well known as wouldn't lend to them. So you'd tell the advisor and he'd say 'OK so if I raise the income by £5k it should fit right?'

Then there would be the advisors who would simply put incomes in as self certified and raise the income (almost always above that what the client was earning) till they got the mortgage they were looking for. Self cert mortgages are mostly for people who are self employed who can't easily show their income with payslips and so on. It's ignorant, dodgey b@stards (I'm sorry but there's no other way to say it) like these guys who have put a lot of people in serious danger of losing their houses and all of their savings. I'm sure in the coming years when a lot of people lose their houses there will be a lot of investigations into advisors and a lot of advisors will be taken off the FSA register and I for one won't be crying...... that said there are a lot of advisors who in my opinion are extremely open but sadly there are a lot who are bad.

[Mark]

We've been looking at houses semi-seriously for about 6 months now. And for the most part the houses which are on the market now, we're on the market 6 months ago!

It's a bad time to buy now, but if you need somewhere to live, needs must.

[Daniel]

We've been looking at houses semi-seriously for about 6 months now. And for the most part the houses which are on the market now, we're on the market 6 months ago!

It's a bad time to buy now, but if you need somewhere to live, needs must.
I would wait a couple of years ideally (which of course you can't really....). So many people are going to get their houses repo'ed and there will be a lot of properties going nice and cheap. Banks are going to be wanting to get rid of reposessions as quickly as possible and won't be quite as bothered about price as a normal homeowner as long as they get money quickly

[BDunnell]

Great post, Jag_Warrior.



It would be interesting to know why McCain's campaign is SO limiting media access to Palin. Personally, I think she should have the opportunity to explain her views on the current financial crisis. Does she have a basic understanding of macro economics? We know that she's never heard of the Bush Doctrine. Does she know the difference between fiscal and monetary policy? She continues to claim that Alaska's geographic location in relation to Russia gives her foreign policy experience. Maybe she thinks that her experience balancing her checking account gives her fiscal policy experience. :rolleyes:

I think McCain's team is clearly concerned about her coming across as stupid, for want of a better word, under 'difficult' questioning and wants her to concentrate on what she does well, which is not saying anything about policy in public.

Still, she was on one of the major networks today being asked to justify her comments about Alaska and Russia. Her answer was, to me, really embarrassing — barely coherent, in fact. I may not agree with McCain's politics, but he's clearly far from stupid, and if I were him I'd be cringing every time she attempted to talk publicly about even basic policy issues.

[Dave B]

I think McCain's team is clearly concerned about her [Palin] coming across as stupid, for want of a better word, under 'difficult' questioning and wants her to concentrate on what she does well, which is not saying anything about policy in public.

Ahead of tomorrow's vice-presidential debate it's being reported (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4856631.ece) that McCain's advisers are asking the media to "go easy on" Sarah Palin, especially regarding foreign affairs as she's not exactly an expert.

Tough. If she doesn't consider herself expert enough to face the media, let alone foreign leaders, she can always withdraw.

Her only hope of an easy ride is if her daughter's shotgun wedding (supporting abstinence worked, then? :rolleyes: ) can be brought forward to before the election and provide a distraction from the real issues.

A population of 300 million and you'd think there couldn't be a worse choice than Bush. :dozey:

[Daniel]

Ahead of tomorrow's vice-presidential debate it's being reported (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4856631.ece) that McCain's advisers are asking the media to "go easy on" Sarah Palin, especially regarding foreign affairs as she's not exactly an expert.

Tough. If she doesn't consider herself expert enough to face the media, let alone foreign leaders, she can always withdraw.

Her only hope of an easy ride is if her daughter's shotgun wedding (supporting abstinence worked, then? :rolleyes: ) can be brought forward to before the election and provide a distraction from the real issues.

A population of 300 million and you'd think there couldn't be a worse choice than Bush. :dozey:

Nice low blow with the abstinence reference ;)

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if Palin was chosen as the Republicans think they've already lost so McCain could blame Palin for it rather than himself. You've also got to wonder if you'd even want to win government when the US is in so much trouble and any president coming in will be saddled with economic baggage AND the small matter of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[BDunnell]

Nice low blow with the abstinence reference ;)

I could make a comment about a low blow having been preferable... no, that's outside the forum's family remit.



The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if Palin was chosen as the Republicans think they've already lost so McCain could blame Palin for it rather than himself.

Nah - she's already proved herself so popular with a large section of the public! This I find really terrifying. Just by referring to herself as a 'hockey mom' she suddenly appeals to loads of people who think 'She's just like us'. Yeah, apart from the huge wealth, the Governorship and the fact that she shoots animals out of helicopters.

Maybe Gordon Brown could try something similar and call himself a 'curling cousin'?


You've also got to wonder if you'd even want to win government when the US is in so much trouble and any president coming in will be saddled with economic baggage AND the small matter of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Of course they want to win. Those economic and international circumstances provide ample opportunities to award contracts to your friends and associates, after all.

[Mark]

Ahead of tomorrow's vice-presidential debate it's being reported (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4856631.ece) that McCain's advisers are asking the media to "go easy on" Sarah Palin, especially regarding foreign affairs as she's not exactly an expert.


LMAO. That's even more reason to give her a hard time. It's not someone applying for a job at a supermarket here, it's the deputy leader or (arguably) the most powerful nation in the world, you should know what you are talking about :s

[Mark]

Yeah, apart from the huge wealth, the Governorship and the fact that she shoots animals out of helicopters.


You know that David Cameron would shoot animals out of helicopters given half the chance :p

[BDunnell]

You know that David Cameron would shoot animals out of helicopters given half the chance :p

Yes, after reassuring the press that the bullets were carbon neutral.

[BDunnell]

Some interesting comment here about the two vice-presidential candidates. What an unsavoury pairing. Biden's plagiarism and untruths about his family's past remind me of Jeffrey Archer, and the less said about Palin the better.

http://www.miamiherald.com/424/story/703133.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/dominic-lawson/dominic-lawson-why-should-anyone-trust-joe-biden-946127.html

Anyway, the BBC's North America editor Justin Webb (on whose blog those above links were posted) says of Palin: 'I think it is perfectly possible that Palin will "win" - some good pre-prepared stunts should do the trick - but at a cost: further alienation of the college-educated centre ground. Palin fever still exists at the grassroots but it has disappeared among the Republican elite'.

In other words, the gulf between the worldviews of different sections of American society seems as large as ever.

[Daniel]

I could make a comment about a low blow having been preferable... no, that's outside the forum's family remit.



Nah - she's already proved herself so popular with a large section of the public! This I find really terrifying. Just by referring to herself as a 'hockey mom' she suddenly appeals to loads of people who think 'She's just like us'. Yeah, apart from the huge wealth, the Governorship and the fact that she shoots animals out of helicopters.

Maybe Gordon Brown could try something similar and call himself a 'curling cousin'?



Of course they want to win. Those economic and international circumstances provide ample opportunities to award contracts to your friends and associates, after all.
Sadly you're right.

You'l have to forgive me thinking logically and thinking of what would be best for a country rather than what would get people who are already rich even richer ;)

Didn't Dave Cameron already pretend to be a normal person and fail spectacularly? I'd love to see Gordon Brown pretending to be like us :) If only to see Dave Cameron accuse him of dithering or something equally as silly :) I'd Sky+ that for sure!

[Daniel]

You know that David Cameron would shoot animals out of helicopters given half the chance :p
He could do an interview while doing it and post it on his blog :) I'd love to see him whince with pain when the recoil from his rifle hits him :p

[Roamy]

It all horsesh!t -- those of you than email me you email address I will send you at power point of the truth of this matter. This will open your eyes.

Re the bailout it is also horsesh!t. If the taxpayer is bailing out then they should receive preferred stock in the companies. Countless Execs should be jailed for their fraudulent practices and bonus scams.
[email:2otsedhk]fousto@me.com[/email:2otsedhk]

[BDunnell]

It is amazing how the current situation is making so many people sound like socialists. As soon as unfettered capitalism (which was still subject to too many restrictions, according to some) starts to have an adverse effect, they suddenly think it's a bad idea. The same happens in relation to sport - 'they all get paid too much', 'those transfer fees are ridiculous', etc.

[Daniel]

There people complain but they're still happy to watch overpaid players and pay silly mortgage fees so they're as bad as everyone else.

[gloomyDAY]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7647622.stm

I find the impending passage of this bill to be ludicrous!
America will be in deeper debt if it's passed by Congress.

[Jag_Warrior]

I think there are too many generalities being thrown about. I don't know that most Americans have a problem with what executives or ball players make. Where Americans have a problem is when an executive has sunk his company into ruin, takes their 401K savings down to nothing, collects a $15 million bonus on the way out the door and the company wants the government to bail what's left of the company out.

As for Palin, I think McCain rolled the dice that he could select someone (anyone) with a vagina and that would attract the angry Hillary supporters. And he was right, at least initially. Playing the gender card is a great way to win the day in the United States these days (just look at some of the Danica Patrick debates on the IRL board sometimes). But when people begin losing their homes and jobs, cannot meet their basic needs and believe that the future looks bleak... they're less likely to take a chance on a cancer ridden 72 year old and his half-witted female side-kick who can't do an interview on her own. I believe many people are afraid that, should McCain win, we might wake up one morning to this older version of Miss Teen South Carolina as the leader of the free world. There are Klan members who probably aren't as disturbed by having Obama as President after considering that.

In better times, I believe McCain would have this election wrapped up by now. If the sun was shining, sure, put Father Time and Moose Girl in charge. But now that there are serious dark clouds on the horizon, many people seem to be thinking twice about McCain and his (poor) choice for a running mate.

[Jag_Warrior]

Nah - she's already proved herself so popular with a large section of the public! This I find really terrifying. Just by referring to herself as a 'hockey mom' she suddenly appeals to loads of people who think 'She's just like us'. Yeah, apart from the huge wealth, the Governorship and the fact that she shoots animals out of helicopters.

The first impression that she gave, at the Republican convention, was apparently a good one to many people. But that was apparently the high water mark. All of that was based on the scant, superficial information that most had on Palin. Since then, more has been learned... none of it very good. But you do still have some bible-thumpers and hardcore neocons who would follow her to the gates of Hell - and I hope that their trip is a speedy one.

I seldom discuss politics (or religion) at work. But today, I somehow got pulled into offering my opinion on the candidates. I actually thought one fellow wanted to fight me after I criticised Palin for being (in my opinion) an empty dress, if not an empty head. He said he liked Palin (for the reason you gave), because "she could relate to the average American." I guess I hurt this fellow's feelings, because I expressed that I wouldn't want an "average American" being within a heartbeat of the Presidency of the United States. Why in goodness name would I want that???!!! The average American has more credit card debt than savings and cannot manage their finances. The average American can't name all of the States on a U.S. map... much less the countries on a world map. The average American does not have a four year college degree and has only a slight understanding of economics. The average American watches the results of American Idol more closely than Wall Street Week. I want someone who is ABOVE average!!!

As I told this hot-headed fellow at work, I don't know who I will vote for yet. But I now know who I will not vote for. If the selection of this airhead is any indication of John McCain's decision making ability, I would vote for Donald Duck before I'd vote for him.

I consider myself to be a "conservative". But I'm a fiscal conservative. If you want to smoke weed, worship dirt and fall in love with a sheep, I don't care... as long as you don't ask me to pay for it. On social issues, I'm a libertarian. I am offended by these free spending, fiscally irresponsible traitors, who refer to themselves as "conservatives". For 8 years, these lowlife neocons have sold this nation out and allowed us to become weak. They've sent our kids to be killed in foreign lands for no good reason. Given away OUR money to beggar nations like Israel, as if we owe them something. And through lack of regulation and corporate welfare, they've put us in a position that I don't see what our longterm future is any longer. One could make a case that we now look like Rome... and I don't mean Rome during the Pax Romana.

[Rudy Tamasz]

The first impression that she gave, at the Republican convention, was apparently a good one to many people. But that was apparently the high water mark. All of that was based on the scant, superficial information that most had on Palin. Since then, more has been learned... none of it very good. But you do still have some bible-thumpers and hardcore neocons who would follow her to the gates of Hell - and I hope that their trip is a speedy one.

I seldom discuss politics (or religion) at work. But today, I somehow got pulled into offering my opinion on the candidates. I actually thought one fellow wanted to fight me after I criticised Palin for being (in my opinion) an empty dress, if not an empty head. He said he liked Palin (for the reason you gave), because "she could relate to the average American." I guess I hurt this fellow's feelings, because I expressed that I wouldn't want an "average American" being within a heartbeat of the Presidency of the United States. Why in goodness name would I want that???!!! The average American has more credit card debt than savings and cannot manage their finances. The average American can't name all of the States on a U.S. map... much less the countries on a world map. The average American does not have a four year college degree and has only a slight understanding of economics. The average American watches the results of American Idol more closely than Wall Street Week. I want someone who is ABOVE average!!!

As I told this hot-headed fellow at work, I don't know who I will vote for yet. But I now know who I will not vote for. If the selection of this airhead is any indication of John McCain's decision making ability, I would vote for Donald Duck before I'd vote for him.

I consider myself to be a "conservative". But I'm a fiscal conservative. If you want to smoke weed, worship dirt and fall in love with a sheep, I don't care... as long as you don't ask me to pay for it. On social issues, I'm a libertarian. I am offended by these free spending, fiscally irresponsible traitors, who refer to themselves as "conservatives". For 8 years, these lowlife neocons have sold this nation out and allowed us to become weak. They've sent our kids to be killed in foreign lands for no good reason. Given away OUR money to beggar nations like Israel, as if we owe them something. And through lack of regulation and corporate welfare, they've put us in a position that I don't see what our longterm future is any longer. One could make a case that we now look like Rome... and I don't mean Rome during the Pax Romana.

There's a lot of truth in your words.

[BDunnell]

I think there are too many generalities being thrown about. I don't know that most Americans have a problem with what executives or ball players make.

I ought to make it clear that I wasn't actually referring to Americans when I made the comment about sportsmens' wages - merely that people who are otherwise capitalists and vote for right-wing parties can be very inconsistent.

[BDunnell]

The first impression that she gave, at the Republican convention, was apparently a good one to many people. But that was apparently the high water mark. All of that was based on the scant, superficial information that most had on Palin. Since then, more has been learned... none of it very good. But you do still have some bible-thumpers and hardcore neocons who would follow her to the gates of Hell - and I hope that their trip is a speedy one.

I seldom discuss politics (or religion) at work. But today, I somehow got pulled into offering my opinion on the candidates. I actually thought one fellow wanted to fight me after I criticised Palin for being (in my opinion) an empty dress, if not an empty head. He said he liked Palin (for the reason you gave), because "she could relate to the average American." I guess I hurt this fellow's feelings, because I expressed that I wouldn't want an "average American" being within a heartbeat of the Presidency of the United States. Why in goodness name would I want that???!!! The average American has more credit card debt than savings and cannot manage their finances. The average American can't name all of the States on a U.S. map... much less the countries on a world map. The average American does not have a four year college degree and has only a slight understanding of economics. The average American watches the results of American Idol more closely than Wall Street Week. I want someone who is ABOVE average!!!

As I told this hot-headed fellow at work, I don't know who I will vote for yet. But I now know who I will not vote for. If the selection of this airhead is any indication of John McCain's decision making ability, I would vote for Donald Duck before I'd vote for him.

I consider myself to be a "conservative". But I'm a fiscal conservative. If you want to smoke weed, worship dirt and fall in love with a sheep, I don't care... as long as you don't ask me to pay for it. On social issues, I'm a libertarian. I am offended by these free spending, fiscally irresponsible traitors, who refer to themselves as "conservatives". For 8 years, these lowlife neocons have sold this nation out and allowed us to become weak. They've sent our kids to be killed in foreign lands for no good reason. Given away OUR money to beggar nations like Israel, as if we owe them something. And through lack of regulation and corporate welfare, they've put us in a position that I don't see what our longterm future is any longer. One could make a case that we now look like Rome... and I don't mean Rome during the Pax Romana.

Super post. :up:

[Jag_Warrior]

I ought to make it clear that I wasn't actually referring to Americans when I made the comment about sportsmens' wages - merely that people who are otherwise capitalists and vote for right-wing parties can be very inconsistent.

OK, I understand. And I agree with that. I was just listening to Larry Kudlow, a talking head on CNBC (the old Financial News Network). Despite his claims that he believes in free market capitalism, Larry sounds more like a welfare queen to me most of the time. It's just that he seems to believe in corporate welfare instead of domestic welfare. Of course, by the same token, you get some on the left who are in bed with big corporate interests more than they let on.

[BDunnell]

OK, I understand. And I agree with that. I was just listening to Larry Kudlow, a talking head on CNBC (the old Financial News Network). Despite his claims that he believes in free market capitalism, Larry sounds more like a welfare queen to me most of the time. It's just that he seems to believe in corporate welfare instead of domestic welfare. Of course, by the same token, you get some on the left who are in bed with big corporate interests more than they let on.

I know it's not possible nowadays to avoid the brands of big corporations completely, but I was always amused by the hard-line socialist in one of my politics seminars at university who smoked nothing but Marlboro. I could never bring myself to ask how he squared this with presumably hating everything the tobacco giants stand for, for fear of some kind of lecture.

[Daniel]

I know it's not possible nowadays to avoid the brands of big corporations completely, but I was always amused by the hard-line socialist in one of my politics seminars at university who smoked nothing but Marlboro. I could never bring myself to ask how he squared this with presumably hating everything the tobacco giants stand for, for fear of some kind of lecture.
Sadly everyone is a hypocrite these days. I dislike Chinese made goods with a passion but I'm sure a few things slip through the net and make their way into our house Trying to stick to your values and having some level of success is miles better than not giving a **** and supporting horrible companies and countries blindly. Funny I should be posting this because I'm eating a Kit Kat right now :uhoh: Hypocrisy is tasty!

[Dave B]

Funny I should be posting this because I'm eating a Kit Kat right now :uhoh: Hypocrisy is tasty!
How could you? Eating a Nestlé product after the terrible things they've done.

Using Girls Aloud in their adverts, I mean... :p

[Azumanga Davo]

How could you? Eating a Nestlé product after the terrible things they've done.

Using Girls Aloud in their adverts, I mean... :p

It was either that or ask Aqua to reform... :s

[Hondo]

Well fousto, have your views on homosexuality changed at all since that top level, declared homosexual Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass had his way with you, and the rest of us? Was it good for you too, son?

[Camelopard]

Greed IS good:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/07/2384156.htm?section=justin


Lehman boss grilled over $500m salary

Posted 3 hours 15 minutes ago
US law-makers have grilled the head of Lehman Brothers demanding he justify some $US500 million ($694 million) he had earned since 2000, as well as huge bonuses sought for top executives even as the bank failed.
Richard Fuld, the chief executive officer of the investment bank which fell prey in September to the credit crunch, was called to account by the House of Representatives oversight committee.
The hearings are the start of a series of probes promised by Congress which on Friday passed an unprecedented $US700 billion rescue package to shore up Wall Street, amid the country's worst economic crisis since the Great Depression in the 1930s.
Committee chairman Henry Waxman targeted Fuld, saying over the years he had earned some $US500 million in bonuses and wages from Lehman Brothers.
Mr Fuld owned a $US14 million in Florida, as well as a home in Idaho filled with an art collection, Mr Waxman said.
Figures provided by Lehman Brothers showed Mr Fuld received some $US52 million from the bank in 2000.
By 2006 that had ballooned to more than $US106 million.
But Mr Fuld disputed that he had pocketed that much eight years, saying: "I would say to you that that 500 number is not accurate.
"I think for the years you're talking about here I believe my cash compensation was close to $US60 million and the amount I took out of the company over and above that was closer to $US250. Still a large number though."
In a series of written testimonies received over the weekend Mr Fuld "takes no responsibility for the collapse of Lehman," Mr Waxman said.
"Instead, he cites a 'litany of destabilising factors,' and says that 'in the end, despite all our efforts, we were overwhelmed.'"
Lehman Brothers sought bankruptcy protection on September 15 after a frantic weekend of talks failed to find a buyer for the Wall Street giant ravaged by credit and real estate woes.
The massive bankruptcy filing in US federal court in New York listed $US639 billion in assets at $US613 billion in debts, and prompted a bloodbath on the global financial markets.

Last minute golden handshake

"We can't continue to have a system where Wall Street executives privatise the gains and then socialise the losses. Accountability needs to be a two-way street," Mr Waxman said.
And he pointed to an internal Lehman email in which the bank's compensation committee recommended as late as September 11 giving golden handshakes of more than $US20 million to be shared between three departing executives.
"In other words, even as Mr Fuld was pleading with Secretary [Henry] Paulson for a federal rescue, Lehman continued to squander millions on executive compensation," Mr Waxman told the committee.
"Many experts think Lehman's fall triggered the credit freeze that is choking our economy, and that made the 700 billion rescue necessary," Mr Waxman said.
"Mr Fuld will do fine. He can walk away a wealthy man, who earned over $US500 million. But taxpayers are left with a $US700 billion bill to rescue Wall Street and an economy in crisis.
"While Mr Fuld and other Lehman executives were getting rich, they were steering Lehman Brothers and our economy toward a precipice."
There has been popular anger at the Wall Street bailout which many Americans, now struggling to pay their mortgages, blame on banks and financial institutions lining their pockets with the profits from the housing boom.
- AFP

[Roamy]

Well fousto, have your views on homosexuality changed at all since that top level, declared homosexual Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass had his way with you, and the rest of us? Was it good for you too, son?

well obviously he missed me cause he is still alive. did you get your butt plug from Obama or Raines??

[Hondo]

Both, I think. I'm pretty sure I heard the shrill cackle of that harpy Pelosi in the background too.

[ioan]

The first impression that she gave, at the Republican convention, was apparently a good one to many people. But that was apparently the high water mark. All of that was based on the scant, superficial information that most had on Palin. Since then, more has been learned... none of it very good. But you do still have some bible-thumpers and hardcore neocons who would follow her to the gates of Hell - and I hope that their trip is a speedy one.

I seldom discuss politics (or religion) at work. But today, I somehow got pulled into offering my opinion on the candidates. I actually thought one fellow wanted to fight me after I criticised Palin for being (in my opinion) an empty dress, if not an empty head. He said he liked Palin (for the reason you gave), because "she could relate to the average American." I guess I hurt this fellow's feelings, because I expressed that I wouldn't want an "average American" being within a heartbeat of the Presidency of the United States. Why in goodness name would I want that???!!! The average American has more credit card debt than savings and cannot manage their finances. The average American can't name all of the States on a U.S. map... much less the countries on a world map. The average American does not have a four year college degree and has only a slight understanding of economics. The average American watches the results of American Idol more closely than Wall Street Week. I want someone who is ABOVE average!!!

As I told this hot-headed fellow at work, I don't know who I will vote for yet. But I now know who I will not vote for. If the selection of this airhead is any indication of John McCain's decision making ability, I would vote for Donald Duck before I'd vote for him.

I consider myself to be a "conservative". But I'm a fiscal conservative. If you want to smoke weed, worship dirt and fall in love with a sheep, I don't care... as long as you don't ask me to pay for it. On social issues, I'm a libertarian. I am offended by these free spending, fiscally irresponsible traitors, who refer to themselves as "conservatives". For 8 years, these lowlife neocons have sold this nation out and allowed us to become weak. They've sent our kids to be killed in foreign lands for no good reason. Given away OUR money to beggar nations like Israel, as if we owe them something. And through lack of regulation and corporate welfare, they've put us in a position that I don't see what our longterm future is any longer. One could make a case that we now look like Rome... and I don't mean Rome during the Pax Romana.

Wow, excellent post! :up: