Religion

[MrJan]

Yeah!!! Let's se how long this thread lasts ;) :D

Firstly can we try as hard as possible to keep it fairly level and avoid an outight slanging match :)

Personally I have one religion only and it's fairly well followed in this country. Most people know it as football and I'm part of the small Exeter City faction, St James Park is my church (usually attend on a Saturday afternoon) and Paul Tisdale is lord.

Basically I don't believe in a true religion. I don't believe in a higher being who created everything nor do I think that I'm going to hell for all the bad things I've done. I also think that there are 2 main types of people who DO have a religion. Firstly there are those that believe in God (or whoever) but don't feel the need to tell me, they think that will go to hell but are well cool with that. Then there are those who spout about it at every available moment and insist that I should believe and I'm going to hell and need to repent. These people get on my tits.

The funny thing about the second faction is that they completely miss the irony of half their statements. The real nutjobs of this group usually believe that other religions are wrong and quite often think that they are better than everyone else, something which I've always thought the whole notion of religion was againts. If the Bible teaches us forgiveness and to love one another then I really don't see how genuine God fearing extremists can consider themselves so high and mighty.

No one is going to convince me to believe in anything but I am interested to hear peoples opinions, what they believe, what they don't and why :)

[Storm]

I am one of the rarest species in my country.

Neither do I believe in God (or the multiple Gods that we have) nor in the fact that you need to have religion or "faith" to survive in this big bad world.

All religions per se are fine and their basic tenets are similar, but there are hardly any religious people who follow those completely and honestly.
Its a tool to keep hold over the common masses and has been used in the past by kings and rulers and continues to be like that even now.

Its the use of religion to suit oneself that gets on my nerves. Do bad things but then pray in temples and almost beg for nice things to happen to you (even bribe the Gods by donating huge sums of money to the temples)

I believe in only one religion. That one which gives me the ability to differentiate between Right and Wrong and try to do the right thing It's called using your brain. I don't need to pray in any temple or do any stupid rituals to serve this religion.

[Rudy Tamasz]

On the faithful side I just believe. On the rational side the existence of God helps me explain many things about this world and tell wrong from right. Dixi.

[MrJan]

On the faithful side I just believe. On the rational side the existence of God helps me explain many things about this world and tell wrong from right. Dixi.

I find the idea of faith quite interesting really as people seem to have differnet reasons behind it. Some people have faith because they are scared, others because they don't like the idea of one huge coincedence creating life.

Also while believing in God can explain things I find that it creates just as many questions. For example I see the idea of God punishing those who do wrong and can understand it for the most part. What I don't get is why God would punish little children who don't deserve to be harmed in wars. From where I stand I hear 2 arguments for this.

Number 1) God has his reasons.
Well I really wish that we'd get the odd explanation occassionally :D TBH I see this as a shrug of the shoulders, people who believe don't have an explanation which they truly understand and so just spout rubbish.

Number 2) It is man that is evil and at fault.
But if God is all powerful and all that then surely he/she/it would step in to prevent harm to those who most definately don't deserve it. Why should one mans evils effect someone who is innocent?

[gadjo_dilo]

My case is simple. I'm an orthodox christian due to my family tradition. My religious feelings aren't based on the study of Bible, a book I've never read as it was forbidden in my youth. But I don't ask myself if this or that episode in the holy book could really happen as I believe that on a divine plane it could happen things that we can't usually perceive. When I was younger I used to go to church to light candles and to have a short prayer. Don't know if it helped but I definitely felt an inner peace. Better buy some cheap candles than see a shrink on regular bases, isn't it? :laugh: Now I don't go anymore, I don't have time and it's usually too crowded.
I love and try to follow orthodox christian tradition without asking myself why I do this. It's interesting, I like it and it matches my rather mystical nature. I love to celebrate saints ( that mean guys with the saint's name should throw a party ), Jesus's christening ( meaning taking "holy water" and putting basil under the pillow to dream the one you'll get married to ), Easter ( painting eggs and having a lamb barbecue , the 2 processions that suggest the burial of Christ and his ressurection), the celebration of the 40 martyrs ( meaning doing traditional cookies and drinking 40 glasses of wine ). etc.
However if there's something I can't stand it's the new generation of priests. They're avid of money and without anything " holy" in their behaviour.

No offence but I'm sure that if I were born in a protestant family I should have become atheist. Those ridiculous preachers who gesticulate, shout and threaten are really annoying.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

My god is Matthew James Bellamy

[PuddleJumper]

Firstly can we try as hard as possible to keep it fairly level and avoid an outight slanging match :)
Seconded. :)


Then there are those who spout about it at every available moment and insist that I should believe and I'm going to hell and need to repent.
There's a guy I used to work with. We were always laughing and joking together, telling rude jokes and horsing around to help the days go quicker. We used to sit and talk at lunchtime and got on really well. Then one day he brought a bible to work. The rude jokes stopped and he no longer used any bad language. It was OK with me that he'd taken an interest in religion, and cleaned up his language too, but it wasn't long before he started to preach to me about God. I wasn't interested at all, and told him so, but he persisted in trying to talk to me about Jesus and the bible. It became so that he didn't talk about anything else and I started avoiding him, speaking to him only when I had to about work. Some time later he left the company and a few years after I met him whilst out shopping. After exchanging brief pleasantries he was straight into his preaching. I made my excuses and left, thoroughly irritated.


I believe in only one religion. That one which gives me the ability to differentiate between Right and Wrong and try to do the right thing It's called using your brain. I don't need to pray in any temple or do any stupid rituals to serve this religion.
I wouldn't call it a religion, but basically I do the same. I was brought up to know right from wrong, to treat good people with respect and to do my best to live a decent and honest life. Much of this is the basis of many religions, but I don't acknowledge any god or higher power being the creator or ruler.

[Roy]

I am Christian. I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
Jesus died on a cross, because he died for my sins. It is the love of God I am happy I know him.

In Christianity all is about love. love From God to our people and love from the people to God and to our peolpe around us.
(in short way the basics)

[MrJan]

I am Christian. I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
Jesus died on a cross, because he died for my sins. It is the love of God I am happy I know him.

In Christianity all is about love. love From God to our people and love from the people to God and to our peolpe around us.
(in short way the basics)

How did Jesus die for your sins, unless you are 2000 years old, stop beating yourself up ;) :p :

I know that Christianity is all about love but it doesn't always show. I watched a programme about extreme christians from the US visiting Israel (I think, somewhere in the middle east that is holy anyway) and they were filled with so much hate. All sorts of complaints about other religions and how it wasn't their country, it was disgusting to hear some of the awful things which these people were saying. Yet they still went on about how everyone else was going to hell. I'm pretty sure that they are way, way wide of the mark and as Bill Hicks used to say "so forgive me, you're a Christian, forgive me"` :)

[Roy]

..
There's a guy I used to work with. We were always laughing and joking together, telling rude jokes and horsing around to help the days go quicker. We used to sit and talk at lunchtime and got on really well. Then one day he brought a bible to work. The rude jokes stopped and he no longer used any bad language. It was OK with me that he'd taken an interest in religion, and cleaned up his language too, but it wasn't long before he started to preach to me about God. I wasn't interested at all, and told him so, but he persisted in trying to talk to me about Jesus and the bible. It became so that he didn't talk about anything else and I started avoiding him, speaking to him only when I had to about work. Some time later he left the company and a few years after I met him whilst out shopping. After exchanging brief pleasantries he was straight into his preaching. I made my excuses and left, thoroughly irritated.
...

Shame this is happen. Offcourse he is happy what he has found.
I think he wants that you find that too. But off course YOU need make a decision on your own. He can't do that. I can't do that either ;)
Shame this was the way you met a Christian.
But I am not a perfect Christian too, I do my best.

Do you ever met God? That is a great Man! :up:

[Garry Walker]

I am Christian. I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
Jesus died on a cross, because he died for my sins. It is the love of God I am happy I know him.

In Christianity all is about love. love From God to our people and love from the people to God and to our peolpe around us.
(in short way the basics)

:rotflmao: Pass me some of the green stuff too, please.

If Christianity is all about love, explain why certain priests have been raping young boys for ages?

[Drew]

I'm not religious and I don't believe in god. I find it almost impossible to believe, seems all a bit fairytailish to me and the whole you just have to have faith thing doesn't work for me.

[MrJan]

explain why certain priests have been raping young boys for ages?

Because they love it ;)

[Roy]

:rotflmao: Pass me some of the green stuff too, please.

If Christianity is all about love, explain why certain priests have been raping young boys for ages?

I know this question comes. First: I hate this too. Second I am not a Catholic. Third: the Bible told us different things.

[Garry Walker]

Third: the Bible told us different things.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html


"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

[Roy]

Is allways so easy to get a text out of his textual, historic an cultural context.

Please holds you on rule one:


Firstly can we try as hard as possible to keep it fairly level and avoid an outight slanging match ;)

[Garry Walker]

Is allways so easy to get a text out of his textual, historic an cultural context.

Please holds you on rule one:

How do you explain these contradictions?

"Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)


I have started no slanging match, I am just slowly starting to expose bible as book full of crazyness.

[MrJan]

How do you explain these contradictions?

"Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)


I have started no slanging match, I am just slowly starting to expose bible as book full of crazyness.

Firstly Jacob was obviously a lying piece of something :D Secondly, have you ever read this forum? Everyone has a diffferent opinion so I just reckon that the Bible was like the forum of the time where everyone argued a lot.

Seriously though it is these sort of things that make me find it really difficult to take Christanity seriously. Here is a book that millions of people live their life by but it is fully of errors, and not just the odd typo but drastic plot inconsitencies. I believe that religion is a fantastic tool in ethics and morals because it helps teach a set of ground rules to people. Obviously legal systems do this in a more concrete way but they too are often related to the basic morals of the Bible and other religious texts.

But should a text that is so old still be relied on today? I mean look at how much the world has moved on just in the last 50 years. We have TVs, computers, all kinds of recreational drug use (and not just the basics, there is some serious chemical stuff out there), weapons etc. etc. Boundaries are changing and I'm not sure that religion is keeping up at a suitable rate where it will still be widespread (in terms of church goers) in, say, 100 years.

[slinkster]

Would now be a good time to mention that I've just finished reading the "God Delusion"? I found it a very fascinating read and it made alot of sense to me. Highly recommended. :) In fact, I'd be interested to read a follow up from a religious perspective to see if they can present as coherent, consistent and persuasive arguments in opposition.

[Zico]

I regard myself as agnostic.. dont really believe in a higher being but open minded enough not to label myself as Atheist. Strangely I still have Christian values which I still believe are generally 'good' values to hold.

My parents are Exclusive Brethren.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Brethren and I was brought up as such, I think I actually resent them for the misery they put me through during my childhood/teenage years.
They believe they are Gods chosen people and that one day they will all be 'raptured' up to heaven and everyone else will be left behind. :D

They all have their own businesses or work for other EB businesses.
They dont (aren't allowed) have any friends (adverse influances) outside their group.
They now have their own schools
They only marry within the 'religion'
No TV, Radio or 'worldly' Music.
No internet access..
They attend church meetings every single day of the week inc 3 times on a sunday! yes, seriously!

When anyone leaves the 'flock' (as they call it) like myself, brothers and sisters did many years ago.. they 'withdraw' from you, wont talk to you or even look at you.. treat you like you aren't even there, you also lose your job.

Very Christian eh?

My family and relatives have been torn apart through the generations. My mother didnt even attend her own mothers funeral !.. all in the name of this so called religion.
When my 2 brothers had a really bad bike smash the 'priests' visited them in hospital telling them.. "look what God has done to you!" and stopped my parents from looking after them as they recovered, I'd better not put into words how angry that still makes me!

I could go on.. but I think you get the picture.

I have to respect the choice they have made with regards to their path in life, I just wish I could rescue them and de-brainwash them from their er brainwashed state lol.. but they have lived that way all their lives.. and the shock of what is reality (at least IMO) would probably kill them.

What would you do?

[MrJan]

S*** Zico must have been pretty weird growing up around that. I resented my parents as a young teenager just for giving me a stupid name so you must have been in a very strange position. If you don't mind, do you know how they came across EB? For example were your parents Christians who wanted more (like a druggy going from weed to pills to crack) or were they sort of 'snagged' like with Scientology? Interesting stuff anyway.

To be honest it's the sort of attitude that I find really strange because it is pretty much the opposite of an all forgiving God who loves everyone equally. Although my Mum sort of believes in a higher being (though not necessarily a God so to speak), and also that there was a genius man like Christ (only a less exaggerated version) I have pretty much been raised in a completely neutral environment. If anything were to have swayed me on the way to Atheism then it was probably the Christians next door who my brother hated. Because he's my big bro and chose to hate religion I sort of followed as a kid which then shaped the people that I made friends with and subsequently my whole personality.

Despite being an Atheist I like the idea of there being a God, just really don't believe that there is one (if that makes sense). I think that this could largely be because I have a busy imagination and just reckon he'd be a sound bloke to share a pint with and watch football :D

[jim mcglinchey]

Would now be a good time to mention that I've just finished reading the "God Delusion"? I found it a very fascinating read and it made alot of sense to me. Highly recommended. :) In fact, I'd be interested to read a follow up from a religious perspective to see if they can present as coherent, consistent and persuasive arguments in opposition.

What about this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dawkins-Delusion-Atheist-Fundamentalism-Denial/dp/0281059276/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222284784&sr=8-1

Dawkins really is the archetypal, up his own superior, academic ass, know it all. I cant stand him.

[Rani]

While I don't believe in any higher being and am not a religious person, I wouldn't go as far as calling myself an atheist. I do celebrate the holidays and keep a lot of jewish customs, but out of traditional reasons.
I think religion is a mixed blessing so to speak. It helps a lot of people deal with the hardships of life on one hand but people also commit heinous crimes in the name of it on the other.

[Eki]

I am one of the rarest species in my country.

Neither do I believe in God (or the multiple Gods that we have) nor in the fact that you need to have religion or "faith" to survive in this big bad world.

All religions per se are fine and their basic tenets are similar, but there are hardly any religious people who follow those completely and honestly.
Its a tool to keep hold over the common masses and has been used in the past by kings and rulers and continues to be like that even now.

Its the use of religion to suit oneself that gets on my nerves. Do bad things but then pray in temples and almost beg for nice things to happen to you (even bribe the Gods by donating huge sums of money to the temples)

I believe in only one religion. That one which gives me the ability to differentiate between Right and Wrong and try to do the right thing It's called using your brain. I don't need to pray in any temple or do any stupid rituals to serve this religion.

Storm, it looks like we are brothers in religion.

[leopard]

Having said that it wouldn't be easy to give our perception about religion to others, either to theist as they are already taught about truth, love and differentiate it from wrong, or to atheist who tend to think basically based on logical function or brain power distinguishing right or wrong. All religions are good (for its follower).

Any ritual procession whether they compel to go to mosque, church, temple or whatever it's called is to sharpen sensitivity that we always remember Him in any aspect of life which means guiding us to do anything right instead of wrong.

I see the doctrines beneficial for us and none of it have contradiction.
Ablution ritual before praying is to remind us of importance from being clean, fasting for some religions teaches us about having empathy besides our stomach biologically needs rest from its daily activity, charity or tithe teaches us to have more solidarity helping others in needs.

As such, opium, tobacco or booze is not recommended, as far as possible to avoid aforesaid stuff, more than it to ban its use, as apparently wasting money and endanger our health ;)

[Rudy Tamasz]

I find the idea of faith quite interesting really as people seem to have differnet reasons behind it. Some people have faith because they are scared, others because they don't like the idea of one huge coincedence creating life.

Also while believing in God can explain things I find that it creates just as many questions. For example I see the idea of God punishing those who do wrong and can understand it for the most part. What I don't get is why God would punish little children who don't deserve to be harmed in wars. From where I stand I hear 2 arguments for this.

Number 1) God has his reasons.
Well I really wish that we'd get the odd explanation occassionally :D TBH I see this as a shrug of the shoulders, people who believe don't have an explanation which they truly understand and so just spout rubbish.

Number 2) It is man that is evil and at fault.
But if God is all powerful and all that then surely he/she/it would step in to prevent harm to those who most definately don't deserve it. Why should one mans evils effect someone who is innocent?

It helps explain something but then human abilities are somewhat limited and I can't explain everything. I can't even explain why my wife is happy with me one day and furious another day. What do I know about the ways of God then?

I have my own pet theory about people doing bad things and getting punished or sometimes doing nothing and still getting punished. You don't get saved unless you show some faith and strength. And that's exactly why life sometimes sends misery your way. But if you persist and take it with courage and dignity, no matter win or lose, this is what is required from you. Something like that, although it sounds pretty chaotic, I think.

[Roy]

Garry,

You don't believe, but you read the bible? For a not Christian you read a lot in the bible and kicked against it. It its a interesting book isn't? ;)
If you take from the Bilble some verses, it looks like you are right. But -again- you have to show it in the whole context.

The bible shows us a way of love. Do like Jesus.

Read Galatians chapter 5
http://www.biblija.net/biblija.cgi?Bible=Bible&m=Ga+5&id32=1&pos=0&set=3&l=en

It has nothing to do of not watching TV, I do watch it.
It has all to do to praise God and live like he lives , when he was on earth.
Not simple, with a lot of mistakes. He helps. Yeah, Sounds weird, I know. But it is the truth.

[Mark]

I don't see anything wrong with having your own beliefs, and practicing them. But when it you start getting groups of people together who all believe exactly the same thing and think others should believe the same as they do, then you are in for trouble!

[gadjo_dilo]

If Christianity is all about love, explain why certain priests have been raping young boys for ages?
As far as I know they also rape young girls, teenagers and even grown up women. We have a case in the papers just these days. :laugh:
The explanation is simple: priests are humans. They're not perfect and are also subjects to sins.
We have a saying: Do what the priest is saying , not what the priest is doing. :laugh:
So in my case I try to follow the path not the man.

How do you explain these contradictions?

"Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)
I've already said I didn't read the Bible but to my knowledge the Bible is a collection of books. It was natural that these books circulated independent because every book when it was written, it wasn't for the purpose to complete the Bible. They were written in some objective circumstances, they were addressed to some people or communities, with a concrete immediate purpose, sometimes concerned with some concrete facts that had happened in those communities.
More than that the authors of the books were humans and humens are still subjects to mistake :laugh:


I believe in only one religion. That one which gives me the ability to differentiate between Right and Wrong and try to do the right thing It's called using your brain. I don't need to pray in any temple or do any stupid rituals to serve this religion.
Well said but in my case I wonder how my rather humble brain could "tell" me what is good and what is wrong. And why my ideas about right and wrong coincide with the christian values?

[slinkster]

What about this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dawkins-Delusion-Atheist-Fundamentalism-Denial/dp/0281059276/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222284784&sr=8-1

Dawkins really is the archetypal, up his own superior, academic ass, know it all. I cant stand him.

Thanks, I might have a read of this.

I disagree that he's feels superior, well, no more than any religious person feels that their beliefs are superior anyway. He's just a passionate atheist. The people I respect the most, irrelevent of their beliefs or faith etc are those that actually have an open mind enough to question it once in a while and aren't threatened by questions or theories.

[Dave B]

It's very easy to understand how our ancestors came up with the concept of "gods" or religion to explain all the mysteries of the universe. After all, it must have been awe-inspiring to see the sun rise and set with no rational explanation, and terrifying to be caught in a thunderstorm or hurricane with no idea of its cause. That's before you even train your gaze on the skies and wonder about all the stars and how they got there, or start to question how life began to develop on Earth.

Without that knowledge, God seems as logical cause as anything else. But what baffles me is why, as we discover more and more about our physical universe, people still cling on to these outmoded beliefs. I just can't comprehend why anybody would still believe in gods, heaven and hell, or any of the other claptrap in the bible / koran.

[MrJan]

Without that knowledge, God seems as logical cause as anything else. But what baffles me is why, as we discover more and more about our physical universe, people still cling on to these outmoded beliefs. I just can't comprehend why anybody would still believe in gods, heaven and hell, or any of the other claptrap in the bible / koran.

As a lot of people have said it's about wanting to believe and giving yourself a set of rules to live by. If some people feel that they can't be good without having an imaginary friend then that's cool. I'm fine with living to pretty much the same set of rules just because I like being nice.

What is really strange is creationists and to be honest I find them a little bit scary, especially when they could be so powerful. These are people that would try to give you a glass of water and say it was a beer. While I agree with many of the principles of the Bible and the moral lessons it tries to teach , I'm really not ready to subscribe to people rising from the dead and an omnipresent being (not least because I will never crap with the door open ever again :uhoh: )

[Hondo]

Back when I had a full time job I had a fondness for Christianity because of the signifigant amount of paid holidays it generates in this country. Now that I'm semi-retired, I've backslid into slovenly indifference.

[Hawkmoon]

I wouldn't call myself an atheist as that would mean I had a belief that gods don't exist. I have have a total apathy for religion to such a degree that it never enters my head unless someone raises a topic such as this. Maybe that makes me a Super Atheist!

Christianity lost any chance of getting me when my 7th grade Scripture teacher (why they made us do that class once a month I'll never know) couldn't explain where dinosaurs fit into the whole "god created the earth in seven days" thing. I was somewhat obsessed with dinosaurs as a boy and this womans only way of explaining them was to say something along the lines of god just putting the bones in the ground for us to find. Even my thirteen year old brain found this to be utter rubbish. Religions already small chance of getting me was snuffed out then and there.

I wish religion would go away. I figure the world would be a much calmer, more peaceful place without it.

[gadjo_dilo]

I admit that my curiosity is rather morbid but I've just noticed a few of you who despise the idea of God and belief and I want to know whether you get married in a church, have your children christened and will have a religious service at your death and if the answer is yes I want to know why. Esp. this last point, the death, is interesting for me. How do you see your funeral? Will you allow a priest to say a few words for your soul or not? And why?

[Hawkmoon]

I admit that my curiosity is rather morbid but I've just noticed a few of you who despise the idea of God and belief and I want to know whether you get married in a church, have your children christened and will have a religious service at your death and if the answer is yes I want to know why. Esp. this last point, the death, is interesting for me. How do you see your funeral? Will you allow a priest to say a few words for your soul or not? And why?

I got married in a garden by a civil celebrant. My children have never been christened. As for my funeral, I couldn't care less. I'll be dead, so what difference will it make to me? I do doubt however that religion will play any part in whatever service my family decides on.

[leopard]

I have belief that the way, behavior, attitude during our period of life in this realm determines the way how hard or easy at the moment of death, and perhaps also life after death (this remains mysterious as no ones has told us that they have great or bad life at the hereafter, if you don’t believe your holy book).

My belief in God or religion is as simple of thing that it will not exist automatically by itself. I wouldn’t try to observe it in more details. Simply, religion guides us to do anything right and avoid anything wrong.

If the time comes I wish to die in my smiling face telling people that I have no regret with my life, they will remember me, my name, kindness, because I have filled my life with a lot of thing worthy, either to myself and to others. Whether or not priest will say words for me is different thing. If they think that we are the right people, they will serve us proper funereal and say more words for us.

Perhaps that way will enable us to have good life, discussion in forum like this at the hereafter. :)

Anything live will die, it’s only a matter of time and shouldn’t be something to be worried about. It can happen to us anytime, but usually it works mathematically that the older ones will die first. :)

[gadjo_dilo]

I got married in a garden by a civil celebrant. My children have never been christened. As for my funeral, I couldn't care less. I'll be dead, so what difference will it make to me? I do doubt however that religion will play any part in whatever service my family decides on.
That's interesting but my curiosity is not satisfied. What do you understand by " service"? The journey from morgue or home to the grave?. If you have to make arrangements for the funeral of a member of your family ( God forbid ! let's speak only hypotetically ) the priest will be excluded?

[MrJan]

That's interesting but my curiosity is not satisfied. What do you understand by " service"? The journey from morgue or home to the grave?. If you have to make arrangements for the funeral of a member of your family ( God forbid ! let's speak only hypotetically ) the priest will be excluded?

Unless they have expressed a desire for a church service then I probably wouldn't bother. I'd imagine that the majority of people that get married or have funerals in churches aren't actually there for religion but done more out of tradition.

[gadjo_dilo]

Unless they have expressed a desire for a church service then I probably wouldn't bother. I'd imagine that the majority of people that get married or have funerals in churches aren't actually there for religion but done more out of tradition.
That's exactly why I asked. :laugh:
Then is it fair to act like hypocrites for tradition's sake?

[Hawkmoon]

That's interesting but my curiosity is not satisfied. What do you understand by " service"? The journey from morgue or home to the grave?. If you have to make arrangements for the funeral of a member of your family ( God forbid ! let's speak only hypotetically ) the priest will be excluded?

As Mr Yeo said, funeral arrangements are usually acted out according to the dead persons wishes. Which is kinda weird considering they're, you know, dead. What do they care? The way I see it funerals are for those left behind as a way to say goodbye. Should be up to them what they want to do. My family could get the bloody Pope to do my funeral or just kick me in the hole and fill it in. I'll be dead so it's all the same to me.

By "service" I mean the whole funeral. That includes all the legal arrangements as well as the actual "ceremony itself.


That's exactly why I asked. :laugh:
Then is it fair to act like hypocrites for tradition's sake?

No more hypocritical than killing in the name of religion or molestering children or amassing huge wealth in the name of your god. Having a church based wedding when you're not religious is kind of insignificant on the hypocricy scale, wouldn't you agree?

[MrJan]

That's exactly why I asked. :laugh:
Then is it fair to act like hypocrites for tradition's sake?

It's not really hypocritical because church needn't always be about belief. Personally I appreciate the architecture and effort that has gone into these buildings. For example I live in a City with a Cathedral and every time I walk by it I am amazed by the detail and structure. Likewise I am impressed on the rare ocassions that I do enter a church by the interior and the work that must have gone into it. At times like that it is difficult no to be impressed by the faith that the builder's must have had :up:

Exeter Cathedral:
http://k43.pbase.com/g3/34/328634/2/57262665.IMG_0035_K.jpg

Not the greatest building ever but still pretty special :)

I'm a standard kind of guy who isn't hung up on the aspects of marriage. My parents got married in Barbados with none of the family about and up until about 15 minutes before the minister was due to arrive my Dad was surfing. He's since said that he regrets taking the large wedding away from my Mum but to be honest I think that the low key thing is sweet. Nonetheless I would have no problems getting married in a church despite not believing because the buildings are always special places just as structures alone without considering the religious aspect.

[gadjo_dilo]

It's not really hypocritical because church needn't always be about belief. Personally I appreciate the architecture and effort that has gone into these buildings. For example I live in a City with a Cathedral and every time I walk by it I am amazed by the detail and structure. .

A church is not just a building, it involves a rite. I might love the architecture but how should I feel in case I think the whole idea of God is stupid when the priest says " It's getting married the slave of God - my name - in the name of the father, of the son and of the holy spirit, amen " or when he says that the woman should fear man, etc. How can I be a slave of God when I despise him?
When a priest will ask an unfaithful godfather if he renounces Satan what should he do? Say " I renounce Satan " or just having a laugh?


No more hypocritical than killing in the name of religion or molestering children or amassing huge wealth in the name of your god. Having a church based wedding when you're not religious is kind of insignificant on the hypocricy scale, wouldn't you agree?.

There's no scale for hypocrisy. It's an attitude to blame.
I'm fed up with the typical arguments above. God and religion are something, the church (which is an institution and is ruled by humans )and church servants (who are humans )are another fish dish.
Anyway, the orthodox christian church to which I belong has no power, no wealth, haven't ever killed in the name of God, priests aren't pedophiles ( but I admit some of them are womanizers :laugh: ), etc, etc.

[MrJan]

A church is not just a building, it involves a rite. I might love the architecture but how should I feel in case I think the whole idea of God is stupid when the priest says " It's getting married the slave of God - my name - in the name of the father, of the son and of the holy spirit, amen " or when he says that the woman should fear man, etc. How can I be a slave of God when I despise him?
When a priest will ask an unfaithful godfather if he renounces Satan what should he do? Say " I renounce Satan " or just having a laugh?

So because I don't believe in God then I'm not allowed to enjoy a building? Sounds all a bit un-Christian to me but if that's what you think then okay. Out of interest do you think that you appreciate the building more because you are religious and feel a connection to God?

To the majority of people the words of a marriage ceremony are about commitement to your spouse, not God. I would say that most weddings are not considered in terms of religion, even though that is what they are supposed to be. You ask how an unfaithful Godfather should feel about uttering these words but it is the same for many so called Christians. A priest in Wales yesterday got done for having indecent images, how did he feel everyday when he stepped in his Church, or gave a sermon (or whatever priests do). And it's not a one off, this stuff seems to happen a lot. In my mind it is worse for a believer to renounce Satan and then do s*** like that than for a none believer to say some words that he doesn't care about.

I'm not saying that it is right, just that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I know that these arguments are tired but you can't talk about people as non-believers and expect us to talk about only God, that is a touch hypocritical.

I'm also intrigued as to how can I despise God if I don't believe that he exists?

[gadjo_dilo]

So because I don't believe in God then I'm not allowed to enjoy a building? Sounds all a bit un-Christian to me but if that's what you think then okay. Out of interest do you think that you appreciate the building more because you are religious and feel a connection to God?

To the majority of people the words of a marriage ceremony are about commitement to your spouse, not God. I would say that most weddings are not considered in terms of religion, even though that is what they are supposed to be. You ask how an unfaithful Godfather should feel about uttering these words but it is the same for many so called Christians. A priest in Wales yesterday got done for having indecent images, how did he feel everyday when he stepped in his Church, or gave a sermon (or whatever priests do). And it's not a one off, this stuff seems to happen a lot. In my mind it is worse for a believer to renounce Satan and then do s*** like that than for a none believer to say some words that he doesn't care about.

I'm not saying that it is right, just that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I know that these arguments are tired but you can't talk about people as non-believers and expect us to talk about only God, that is a touch hypocritical.

I'm also intrigued as to how can I despise God if I don't believe that he exists?
In brief:
- You may enjoy a building as a visitor - the way I enjoy the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. To subject yourself to a rite is another thing.
- I didn't ever take the part of priests. On the contrary, I said I hate the new generation of priests, etc.
- A man may believe in God but do the abominable things you mentioned because man is a sinner and God may forgive the sins if you repent. There are means of divine punishment and atonement.
- Now you tell me the reason why a man who may not believe in God should follow a religious rite.

[MrJan]

- Now you tell me the reason why a man who may not believe in God should follow a religious rite.

My simple answer to that would be "why not?" I understand that the idea of someone who doesn't care following these rites in church is unacceptable to you but I fail to see why. If the person does not believe but it transpires that a God exists then I assume he will be punished in some way for his actions in the afterlife or whatever so what is the problem with someone getting married in a church which is a very awe inspiring building to be in?

As you said the Church is run by humans not God. If there is a God then I am under the impression that he shall judge us all, it's not up to you or the church to say that people can't marry in a church because of there religion or lack of it. If I (an atehist) were to marry a Christian would you say that the ceremony could not take place in a Church because of my beliefs? Forgive my ignorance but would the marriage not have taken place int he eyes of the Lord meaning that my hypothetical wife would be judged to have led a life of sin?

I'm purely hypothesising here because I think it's an interesting issue, I don't want to come over as all agressive but I don't really see what your actual problem is with a non-believer having a ceremony of any kind in a church :)

[gadjo_dilo]

My simple answer to that would be "why not?" I understand that the idea of someone who doesn't care following these rites in church is unacceptable to you but I fail to see why. If the person does not believe but it transpires that a God exists then I assume he will be punished in some way for his actions in the afterlife or whatever so what is the problem with someone getting married in a church which is a very awe inspiring building to be in? :)
But I didn't say it's unacceptable. I've only said it's insincere. :laugh:


As you said the Church is run by humans not God. If there is a God then I am under the impression that he shall judge us all, it's not up to you or the church to say that people can't marry in a church because of there religion or lack of it.
But God is not judging us. He just showed us the "path" and it's up to us to follow it. Once again I underline, neither me nor the orthodox christian church deny to anyone the right to get married in the church. On the contrary ( and that's why I asked the question in the first place ), my secret belief is that even those who are in denial of God, when it comes to life or death they still follow the religious rules.

If I (an atehist) were to marry a Christian would you say that the ceremony could not take place in a Church because of my beliefs? Forgive my ignorance but would the marriage not have taken place int he eyes of the Lord meaning that my hypothetical wife would be judged to have led a life of sin?
In my opinion, everybody is free to get married wherever they want, I only wondered if they have a moral problem when they don't have faith.
However, to my knowledge you may not be married in a christian church if you weren't christened in that religion. Also, in orthodox tradition the godfather/godmother couple can't have this position if they weren't also been married in a church. These days ( and for a certain amount of money, if you know what I mean ) the othodox priests may shut their eyes to the extent that we assisted to the hilarious situation when a muslim footballer married an orthodox girl on both rites, having 2 wedding ceremonies.
However, I think that in juddaism the rules are still strictly respected and no matter how much I admire the architecture of the Coral Temple in Bucharest I'll never be allowed to get married there unless I give up my belief, get christened in juddaic rite and find a jewish husband.


I'm purely hypothesising here because I think it's an interesting issue, I don't want to come over as all agressive but I don't really see what your actual problem is with a non-believer having a ceremony of any kind in a church :)
Well, now I believe it's clear......

[Hawkmoon]

However, to my knowledge you may not be married in a christian church if you weren't christened in that religion. Also, in orthodox tradition the godfather/godmother couple can't have this position if they weren't also been married in a church. These days ( and for a certain amount of money, if you know what I mean ) the othodox priests may shut their eyes to the extent that we assisted to the hilarious situation when a muslim footballer married an orthodox girl on both rites, having 2 wedding ceremonies.
However, I think that in juddaism the rules are still strictly respected and no matter how much I admire the architecture of the Coral Temple in Bucharest I'll never be allowed to get married there unless I give up my belief, get christened in juddaic rite and find a jewish husband

What you've described here is one of the big problems I have with formal religion. What difference does if make where a person gets married and how do priests know that their god won't recognise a marriage if it's not done to a strict set of rules in the proper building? The fact is they don't.

All these rules were made up by people to serve a purpose. Usually that purpose was to keep people in line. For example, how can Catholics say that god forbids the use of condoms? I'm pretty sure that the Bible doesn't say "thou shalt not put a rubber johnny over your junk" considering condoms weren't around 2000 years ago when the Bible was written. It's just another way for religious types to try and control people.

Religion and faith are two different things, though they're not mutually exclusive. Surely all religions should be happy to marry a couple if they have faith, not just because they strictly adhere to the dogmatic doctrine of a particular version of a religion?

[gadjo_dilo]

What you've described here is one of the big problems I have with formal religion. What difference does if make where a person gets married and how do priests know that their god won't recognise a marriage if it's not done to a strict set of rules in the proper building? The fact is they don't.
Maybe God thinks like me ( blasphemy! now I should do penitence :laugh: ).
If a couple don't believe in him then they don't belong to his church and don't obey his rules. Then why should God bless their union that pretend to be done in his name?
As for priests, they probably are forbidden to subject to a religious act a person who doesn't belong to that religion. In my opinion it's logical.


All these rules were made up by people to serve a purpose. Usually that purpose was to keep people in line. For example, how can Catholics say that god forbids the use of condoms? I'm pretty sure that the Bible doesn't say "thou shalt not put a rubber johnny over your junk" considering condoms weren't around 2000 years ago when the Bible was written. It's just another way for religious types to try and control people.
I might be wrong, I'm not familiar to catholic rules, but I think they don't claim that God litterally forbid condoms. It's probably something related to the christian belief about fertility and abortions. For ex. in the othodox rite of wedding, it is underlined the idea that the couple should " multiply" and the bride is urged to be fertile like....sorry, always forget the name of this biblic character.


Religion and faith are two different things, though they're not mutually exclusive. Surely all religions should be happy to marry a couple if they have faith, not just because they strictly adhere to the dogmatic doctrine of a particular version of a religion?
But what's the use of, let's say, a muslim wedding for a person like me, who belong to another culture? A religious wedding is something serious in our lives not an exotic extravaganza. You may choose the restaurant for the wedding party in accordance with your fantasies but the church is something else.

[GridGirl]

My mother was bought up a Catholic, my father a Muslim, me and my brother were Christened Methodists although we both went to Church of England schools. How confusing is that? :s I haven't been to Chuch sinse I left school apart from the occasional wedding or funeral.

I'm just about to spend the rest of the week at a client where you train to become a priest. If you've got 8 years, want to be a ble to watch sky sports and drink in the student union for that period of time then I'll get you a broshure. ;) All your meals get thrown in too which I'm quite looking forward too :D although it does get a tad annoying when your trying to concentrate and the organ fires up and they all start singing hymes.

[ArrowsFA1]

The thing about religion that I never got is as George Harrison said (http://www.newsun.com/georgereprint.html): "God is this thing that we're never going to see, we're never going to meet, but you still have to believe in what we say. It's like this blind faith in something that they can't show you...Then, on reflection, I realized that the Christianity that had come in my life as a child was all this idea that you're never going to see him. It's like hypocrisy, in a way."

Swami Vivekananda - "If there's a God, we must see him and if there's a soul we must perceive it. Otherwise, it's better not to believe. It's better to be an outspoken atheist than a hypocrite."

[gadjo_dilo]

Swami Vivekananda - "If there's a God, we must see him and if there's a soul we must perceive it. Otherwise, it's better not to believe. It's better to be an outspoken atheist than a hypocrite."

And why "must" we see him? A blind man can't see things that still exist. And what if our limited senses aren't enough?

[Hawkmoon]

Maybe God thinks like me ( blasphemy! now I should do penitence :laugh: ).
If a couple don't believe in him then they don't belong to his church and don't obey his rules. Then why should God bless their union that pretend to be done in his name?
As for priests, they probably are forbidden to subject to a religious act a person who doesn't belong to that religion. In my opinion it's logical.

I said why shouldn't people who have faith be allowed to marry in a church. They believe in god but don't believe in the doctrine that comes with formal religions. I understand the problem with atheists having a church wedding but why shouldn't someone who believes in god be able to get married that way?

Who's to say which sect of Christianity, and there a literally dozens of them, is correct? What right has one group of people got to criticise and in some cases condemn another group because they don't see Chritianity exactly the same way? That's a stunningly arrogant way to behave when considering something as immaterial as faith.


I might be wrong, I'm not familiar to catholic rules, but I think they don't claim that God litterally forbid condoms. It's probably something related to the christian belief about fertility and abortions. For ex. in the othodox rite of wedding, it is underlined the idea that the couple should " multiply" and the bride is urged to be fertile like....sorry, always forget the name of this biblic character.

Again, it's somebodies interpretation of somebody else's opinion. The only reason, in the modern world, to forbid the use of contraception is to keep the congregation in line and to breed more little followers. That may be overly cynical but I can't see any other logical explanation.


But what's the use of, let's say, a muslim wedding for a person like me, who belong to another culture? A religious wedding is something serious in our lives not an exotic extravaganza. You may choose the restaurant for the wedding party in accordance with your fantasies but the church is something else.

I'm not talking about cross-culture religions here. I'm not suggesting that people should pick and chose what religious wedding to have like they're picking what flowers to have for the reception.

I'm talking about Chritianity and it's many versions. The Catholic idea that a marriage won't be recognised by god unless it's done the Catholic way is a pathetic way to behave for a group of people who go around preaching love, peace and forgiveness.

Besides, what proof has anyone got that god needs people to go to church and follow religious doctrine? If he's as loving as they claim then he'll let good people in regardless of whether they adhered to religious doctrine.

I know a woman who does and tremendous amount of charity work. She does more good than anybody else I know. She was told by a devout practicing Catholic that it didn't matter how much she helped those in need she was going to hell unless she became a Catholic and repented her sins. WTF? God won't let anybody into heaven unless they practice religion? If that's the case then there's a hell of a lot (excuse the pun) good people in hell and a whole bunch of rank arseholes in heaven. You'll have to forgive me if I have no time such a god.

[gadjo_dilo]

I said why shouldn't people who have faith be allowed to marry in a church. They believe in god but don't believe in the doctrine that comes with formal religions. I understand the problem with atheists having a church wedding but why shouldn't someone who believes in god be able to get married that way?.
I don't understand. Those who believe in God aren't denied to marry in a church.
But generally speaking these days nobody is denied this right. The priest doesn't inquire the couple about their faith as long as they pay. :laugh:


Who's to say which sect of Christianity, and there a literally dozens of them, is correct? What right has one group of people got to criticise and in some cases condemn another group because they don't see Chritianity exactly the same way? That's a stunningly arrogant way to behave when considering something as immaterial as faith.
Correct me if I'm wrong but christianity had 2 main branches: the orthodoxes and the catholics. After Luther's reform the latter developed a new branch. The sects broke away from an official church. To my knowledge catholics and orthodoxes are in good terms now, they have a dialogue and respect each other. In fact the romanian orthodox church to which I belong is in good terms with all official confessions except for the sects unrecognized by law.



Again, it's somebodies interpretation of somebody else's opinion. The only reason, in the modern world, to forbid the use of contraception is to keep the congregation in line and to breed more little followers. That may be overly cynical but I can't see any other logical explanation.?.
Again, to my knowledge, the low rate of natality is also a concern in many european countries. If encouraging natality is a state problem why should church stay apart? But nobody would know in the first place that the new generation will become faithful, I'd rather think that church is guiding by God's saying: grow and multiply!


I'm talking about Chritianity and it's many versions. The Catholic idea that a marriage won't be recognised by god unless it's done the Catholic way is a pathetic way to behave for a group of people who go around preaching love, peace and forgiveness.?.
So what? Those who are catholic will marry their way and will be happy. The rest of us don't have to bother bacause we're not catholic and don't share their ideas. Let everybody wed to the rules of his religion and all of us will be satisfied.


Besides, what proof has anyone got that god needs people to go to church and follow religious doctrine? If he's as loving as they claim then he'll let good people in regardless of whether they adhered to religious doctrine..
Now we come back to my problem of morals. Those who are looking for proofs and don't find them don't probably need a religious wedding. However a lot of them want to do it.


I know a woman who does and tremendous amount of charity work. She does more good than anybody else I know. She was told by a devout practicing Catholic that it didn't matter how much she helped those in need she was going to hell unless she became a Catholic and repented her sins. WTF? God won't let anybody into heaven unless they practice religion? If that's the case then there's a hell of a lot (excuse the pun) good people in hell and a whole bunch of rank arseholes in heaven. You'll have to forgive me if I have no time such a god.
Ha! Every religion has its talibans. :laugh: Don't take seriously what everybody says.
But I assume that your woman is not catholic so she has no reason to worry. :laugh:

[MrJan]

I know a woman who does and tremendous amount of charity work. She does more good than anybody else I know. She was told by a devout practicing Catholic that it didn't matter how much she helped those in need she was going to hell unless she became a Catholic and repented her sins. WTF? God won't let anybody into heaven unless they practice religion? If that's the case then there's a hell of a lot (excuse the pun) good people in hell and a whole bunch of rank arseholes in heaven. You'll have to forgive me if I have no time such a god.

And there we have the main problem with religion, the numpties that follow it. THey spout that God loves everyone and is very forgiving and then say that you're going to hell.

People often talk about 'opening your mind' to the possibility of God but it seems as though religion is just a way of closing off your mind and refusing to accept what other's choose to believe. I'm not saying it happens with everyone, just that there are widespread religious d***heads who think that they are in some way better.

[jens]

It's obviously in human nature and everyone believes at least in something (be it even the person itself).

I believe in realism, nature, forces of nature, logic and... the diversity of universes/worlds. I have my own belief. :)

[jens]

Belief is obviously in human nature and I think everyone believes at least in something (be it even the person itself).

I believe in realism, nature, forces of nature, logic and... the diversity of universes/worlds. I have my own belief. :)

[Zico]

I believe in realism, nature, forces of nature, logic and... the diversity of universes/worlds. I have my own belief. :)

Me too..

Gadjo Dilo, you should try and watch Zeitgeist with an open mind, although flawed and littered with half truths and is often a contradiction of itself... it certainly makes you think outside the box. I for one, think its good to challenge my own beliefs.

Strangely, when I try to copy the you-tube link.. it re-directs me to something else.

[Rollo]

Can I ask the atheists what the point of human rights are?

Logically it follows that because you only have a limited time on the earth, before you're plouged back into it, then what you do with that time is of precisely zero consequence.

If life generally happens to be a statistical blip then what is the ultimate point of any law or rule in existance anyway?

[Zico]

Can I ask the atheists what the point of human rights are?

Logically it follows that because you only have a limited time on the earth, before you're plouged back into it, then what you do with that time is of precisely zero consequence.

If life generally happens to be a statistical blip then what is the ultimate point of any law or rule in existance anyway?

Its called civilisation bud.. another form of control.

[Hawkmoon]

Can I ask the atheists what the point of human rights are?

Logically it follows that because you only have a limited time on the earth, before you're plouged back into it, then what you do with that time is of precisely zero consequence.

If life generally happens to be a statistical blip then what is the ultimate point of any law or rule in existance anyway?


Surely you're not trying to suggest that the only reason we should not oppress and kill each other is to get into some "heaven"?

What about the Mulsim nut jobs who go around blowing people up precisely to get into heaven? Not to mention all those virgins.

[Rollo]

What about them? If you take the assumption that there are no consequences, then logically it follows that both the nut jobs who went around blowing people up, and the people they blew up both end up as worm food anyway. So why get mad about it?

[Hawkmoon]

So you're fine about you or your loved ones being killed if we make the assumption that everybody dies eventually and there's no afterlife in which living actions are judged?

[Rollo]

If you remove the emotion, then esentially that is the logical position which is taken by default. That's why I asked the question.

[slinkster]

You could argue that some christian beliefs claim you can still be a rapist, murderer and still get into heaven as long as you repent your sins. How is that fitting into the religious line?

And surely this is why you have people willing to die for other faiths, THEY believe they're doing the right thing. That belief can also be very dangerous- just as ANY belief can be if people don't think for themselves (that goes for non-religious people too).

I think it's silly (and also selfish) to imply that the only reason you're kind and don't kill other people is because you're religious and want to get into heaven, surely you don't kill them because you're don't want to right? There could be sound scientific reasons to suggest that humans are largely "kind" to one another in order to survive as a species. I am aware of consequences to others, as well as myself- and even though they might have come from "religious principles" I don't necessarily believe those principles and ethics came from god.

Or maybe I'm just getting confused by the argument here...

[gadjo_dilo]

You could argue that some christian beliefs claim you can still be a rapist, murderer and still get into heaven as long as you repent your sins. How is that fitting into the religious line?
It's not that simple. Problem is that you should assume your sins, regret them but also change your life according to God's rules. It's a matter of conscience.


And surely this is why you have people willing to die for other faiths, THEY believe they're doing the right thing. That belief can also be very dangerous- just as ANY belief can be if people don't think for themselves (that goes for non-religious people too).
But any religion claim that life is a gift from God and no man has the right to take the others life. Those who pretend to do this in the name of faith are but fanatics.


I think it's silly (and also selfish) to imply that the only reason you're kind and don't kill other people is because you're religious and want to get into heaven, surely you don't kill them because you're don't want to right? There could be sound scientific reasons to suggest that humans are largely "kind" to one another in order to survive as a species. I am aware of consequences to others, as well as myself- and even though they might have come from "religious principles" I don't necessarily believe those principles and ethics came from god.

Or maybe I'm just getting confused by the argument here...

I'm not killing other people not because I'm religious and I'm anyway aware I'll never go to heaven. I act like this because that's what my conscience tells me. Is my conscience also telling me that humans are kind in order to survive? No, just in order to survive humans are ready for the most abject acts: betrayal, murder, lie, steal, etc. I'm not a regular religious person (although I believe in God ) so the idea of interdiction to kill is probably so well screwed in my mind as a result of centuries of christian belief.

[slinkster]

I'm not killing other people not because I'm religious and I'm anyway aware I'll never go to heaven. I act like this because that's what my conscience tells me. Is my conscience also telling me that humans are kind in order to survive? No, just in order to survive humans are ready for the most abject acts: betrayal, murder, lie, steal, etc. I'm not a regular religious person (although I believe in God ) so the idea of interdiction to kill is probably so well screwed in my mind as a result of centuries of christian belief.

I tend to agree with you on this. I don't know if my ethics are genetic/species based or just passed down like you say from a "christian" belief system. My morals, shaped from my upbringing, would probably for the most part fall in line with the christian way of thinking, but I personally don't attribute these traits to being instilled by a higher being neither do I need to jutisfy them to anyone but myself. Call me stubborn :)



It's not that simple. Problem is that you should assume your sins, regret them but also change your life according to God's rules. It's a matter of conscience.


I was under the impression, and I could be way off because I'm no expert, that even on your death bed you can repent your sins and be supposedly sent to heaven. Perhaps it's specific to a Catholic faith, I'm not sure, but I thought the whole point of having a preist read you your last rites etc was about absolving sin? How in those cases, can you regret your errors and change your ways? Or are you doomed if you haven't changed? And does that then mean that actually God isn't as forgiving as some people say?

It's interesting... I have so many questions :) most of which probably can't be answered.

[F1boat]

I am Christian. I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
Jesus died on a cross, because he died for my sins. It is the love of God I am happy I know him.

In Christianity all is about love. love From God to our people and love from the people to God and to our peolpe around us.
(in short way the basics)

Nothing to add. Same here - about preaching - if someone is interested about why I am a Christian and is open-minded, I would like to try to persuade him. But if not, I can talk about many other things, like F1, fantasy literature and movies, politics, etc...

[gadjo_dilo]

I was under the impression, and I could be way off because I'm no expert, that even on your death bed you can repent your sins and be supposedly sent to heaven. Perhaps it's specific to a Catholic faith, I'm not sure, but I thought the whole point of having a preist read you your last rites etc was about absolving sin? How in those cases, can you regret your errors and change your ways? Or are you doomed if you haven't changed? And does that then mean that actually God isn't as forgiving as some people say?

It's interesting... I have so many questions :) most of which probably can't be answered.

I admit I have done a confession only once in my life and I can't remember how it was. Probably the priest was in a hurry to get my money and I was anyway too young to commit capital sins. But I think the priest can't have the power to absolve us, he's rather only praying to have our sins forgiven.
Maybe the idea of " at least on your death bed " you regret the bad things may " sweeten " the divine punishment. :laugh: It's probably like a therapy involving the cleaning of the soul.
From what I've heared from those who use to confess I think that things aren't so simple like I did a mistake, I confess it and I'll be forgiven. There are sins that can't be forgiven without penitence. My cousin who used to be a womanizer confessed he has a mistress and the priest refused to give him the eucharist.

[Sleeper]

Can I ask the atheists what the point of human rights are?

Logically it follows that because you only have a limited time on the earth, before you're plouged back into it, then what you do with that time is of precisely zero consequence.

If life generally happens to be a statistical blip then what is the ultimate point of any law or rule in existance anyway?
I'm an Agnostic rather than an atheist but anyway..... The problem with this is that it assumes life has no value in and of itslef, and I completely reject this. To me life is an extremely valuble thing not to be taken lightly and that all our actions have consiquencies on those that are around us and will come after us.

Laws and rules are just something used to hold together our concept of civilisation, and as the latter always changes, so does the former.

[MrJan]

Can I ask the atheists what the point of human rights are?

Logically it follows that because you only have a limited time on the earth, before you're plouged back into it, then what you do with that time is of precisely zero consequence.

If life generally happens to be a statistical blip then what is the ultimate point of any law or rule in existance anyway?

Do you need faith to believe in human rights then? Surely it can just be about the people themselves at not a supposed creator?

Ultimately I don't believe that there is a purpose to life, nor do I want to find one. But while I'm hear then there are several things that I enjoy doing, of which drinking, socialising, football and motorsport are four. To do these I need money, to have money I need a job and to have a job I need not to be in jail. This is all made easier if I don't walk arounf generally infringing human rights and I'm pretty sure that it's how most people see things too which creates a nice neutral ground where we pretend to respect each other.

[gadjo_dilo]

Do you need faith to believe in human rights then? Surely it can just be about the people themselves at not a supposed creator?

Ultimately I don't believe that there is a purpose to life, nor do I want to find one. But while I'm hear then there are several things that I enjoy doing, of which drinking, socialising, football and motorsport are four. To do these I need money, to have money I need a job and to have a job I need not to be in jail. This is all made easier if I don't walk arounf generally infringing human rights and I'm pretty sure that it's how most people see things too which creates a nice neutral ground where we pretend to respect each other.
1.So you're the partisan of an existance without a sense.....
Can't this create a moral crise?
2. Is only the fear of jail/ punishment the only reason to respect human rights?
3. Respecting human rights is enough to create that nice neutral ground? World is full of merry " smart guys" who lie, cheat, betray, play false, etc. without breaking human rights and who can't be punished..