Ferrari and their technical troubles

[ioan]

So, the discussion in the thread about the Ferrari contract extensions went so much in the direction of their perceived technical troubles that I thought it would be worth having a thread dedicated to this.

The views of the forum members seem to be very different over this topic.
1. Some say they have troubles getting heat into the tires.
2. Others say the car does not behave well in wet conditions.
3. Others(s) say that the car is the best but the drivers aren't good enough.

What's your view on this.

And just in case, keep it clean, I'm not interested about who's fave driver is better or nicer or more handsome and other petty fighting.
Just technical insight please.

[ioan]

I'll try to add my opinion on the matter now.

I think that they might have to a certain extent a problem with bringing up their tires to the optimum temperature.
Why is that?

IMO when they designed this years contender, Ferrari thought about having a car that is very gentle with it's tire.
This however comes to the expenses of heating them up fast enough on cold and wet tracks. But on the other hand gives them a better flexibility in terms of race strategy.
It is exactly the opposite of what McLaren did,and they did it so because it suits better the style of their drivers, whom are, IMO, smooth drivers.

[Tomi]

They dont get the tyres warm enough in cold and wet conditions and simular problems with the brakes too, nothing wrong with the drivers (their helmets fits still too) i think we will see that later this year, hopefully next race already.

[Knock-on]

They dont get the tyres warm enough in cold and wet conditions and simular problems with the brakes too, nothing wrong with the drivers (their helmets fits still too) i think we will see that later this year, hopefully next race already.


SsorRry,, CanNt Typpe prOPpper. ..

BussSy DooinGG aA RrAiinN DdDanNcee

[ArrowsFA1]

I think that they might have to a certain extent a problem with bringing up their tires to the optimum temperature.
That's not a problem unique to Ferrari though, as was illustrated during qualifying at Monza. Perhaps the problem stems more from the characteristics of the tyres (in certain conditions) than the car.

Having said that, Kimi appears to suffer from this more than Felipe so if we remove the common factor (tyres) perhaps it is a driver or car issue.

[ioan]

SsorRry,, CanNt Typpe prOPpper. ..

BussSy DooinGG aA RrAiinN DdDanNcee

I thought I was clear enough that I don't want any rubbish posted in here?! :rolleyes:

Put this in the Massa/Kimi re-signed thread before I saw this one...

The Ferrari has, traditionally, been relatively easy on its tyres in "normal" conditions compared to the MP4/21, 22 & 23. That means, basically, that it doesn't put as much heat into them. Which is great when "normal" racing conditions apply (i.e - a hot spring/summer day, when most racing is expected to happen).

That tends to mean that the tyres don't get up to temperature as quickly, hence perhaps Kimi's qualifying issues, but as a result last longer at peak operating performance.

In Valencia & Hungary, two hot days, voila. Ferrari have the fastest pace and it was Mclaren who couldn't get up to their expected pace.

At Spa & Monza, where the atmospheric conditions were cold & the tracks were cold and slippery, it was inevitable that cars that can put more heat into their tyres would be better.

However, whilst it is always likely to shower at Spa, this year has seen both Monaco & Monza in unusually wet weather conditions, plus Silverstone not being dry.

Now, perhaps at Maranello the "crystal ball" isn't properly calibrated, but it would have been extreme stupidity to design a car away from the concept of one that was easy on its tyres just in case it rained at Monza.

This year has seen, at least in 50% of the races, a lower temperature than expected and in at least 3 races rain playing a vital part.

That is not a usual season and makes it impossible to have planned for.

Now, had the summer actually been a summer and not some slightly warmer version of February, I do not believe that Ferrari would be the ones having the tyre problems.

[Tonieke]

I thought I was clear enough that I don't want any rubbish posted in here?! :rolleyes:

always remember them words you just posted there....also in other threads ;-)

always remember them words you just posted there....also in other threads ;-)

Quit trolling.

If you have nothing to say except something to do with Ioan's personality, keep it to yourself.

That the Ferrari manages its tyres better once they are at the 'standard' operating temperature may well suggest why Kimi is capable of setting fastest laps.

His problem, which I believe is a simple case of a driver not being able to get around a specific problem due to his style (Kimi is considered very smooth, Massa a bit more lairy), is getting the tyres to that operating temperature.

The problem for Ferrari is that by trying to get heat into the tyres quicker, they will most likely throw the baby out with the bath-water and lose the cars tendency to look after the tyres.

Trying to fix a specific problem born from a fundamental design concept mid-season is not just a case of "hey, let's throw millions at it" because it isn't as easy to fix as that when the design concept itself is the limiting factor.

The easy thing to do would be to produce an over-steering suspension geometry that makes the tyres work like crazy. Easy but wrong. All that would achieve is that the heat build up would be too quick and the advantages of maintaining optimum operating levels for a long stint would be instantly lost.

Not to mention that the car would handle like a pig. It's a sows-ear of a solution after all.

Ferrari would, almost certainly, find themselves with a car which had shot its tyres after 15 laps.

Which, funnily enough, is pretty much the problem that Mclaren have encountered on several occasions this year and which, it appears, the Renault R28 has been doing pretty much all season if its tyres aren't very carefully worn in. Renault have been known to use Friday Practice 1 to cruise around some 20 seconds off the pace just to put a heat-cycle through the sets of tyres.

[Tonieke]

Quit trolling.

If you have nothing to say except something to do with Ioan's personality, keep it to yourself.

wonder why you not posted this when he left that comment in reply to knock-ons post ?

wonder why you not posted this when he left that comment in reply to knock-ons post ?

Because he isn't trolling. He is entitled to ask people to type serious on-subject posts.

Talking of which, have you anything to say about the subject of this thread or not?

[Knock-on]

That the Ferrari manages its tyres better once they are at the 'standard' operating temperature may well suggest why Kimi is capable of setting fastest laps.

His problem, which I believe is a simple case of a driver not being able to get around a specific problem due to his style (Kimi is considered very smooth, Massa a bit more lairy), is getting the tyres to that operating temperature.

The problem for Ferrari is that by trying to get heat into the tyres quicker, they will most likely throw the baby out with the bath-water and lose the cars tendency to look after the tyres.

Trying to fix a specific problem born from a fundamental design concept mid-season is not just a case of "hey, let's throw millions at it" because it isn't as easy to fix as that when the design concept itself is the limiting factor.

The easy thing to do would be to produce an over-steering suspension geometry that makes the tyres work like crazy. Easy but wrong. All that would achieve is that the heat build up would be too quick and the advantages of maintaining optimum operating levels for a long stint would be instantly lost.

Not to mention that the car would handle like a pig. It's a sows-ear of a solution after all.

Ferrari would, almost certainly, find themselves with a car which had shot its tyres after 15 laps.

Which, funnily enough, is pretty much the problem that Mclaren have encountered on several occasions this year and which, it appears, the Renault R28 has been doing pretty much all season if its tyres aren't very carefully worn in. Renault have been known to use Friday Practice 1 to cruise around some 20 seconds off the pace just to put a heat-cycle through the sets of tyres.

Good post :up:

I know what Renault were doing and I would assume it's to help cure the tyres a bit more by warming them gently and keeping some heat in them without heating them too much.

This would probably have the effect of hardening them a bit to stop them graining I would guess.

Wont be a problem on slicks.

With Kimi and Massa, they should be more adaptable. I remember with SV and SB a couple of weeks ago. SB admitted that SV adapted better to the car and it was his responsibility to do the same and get the best out of the car.

The best drivers out there are the ones that get the best out of the equipment regardless of it's limitations. This is one of my complaints with Button who is sublime in a fast car and mediocre when it's not. Reminds me a bit of Kimi in that respect.

[aryan]

Of course, I have to agree with the general view on tyres. I would add that under normal conditions, Ferrari's design of being soft on tyres is better than McLaren's opposite approach, but this year has been unusually wet (do you guys remember when years went by without a single wet race?)

To the tyre argument, however, I would also add driver technical knowledge. Without getting into the debate of their driving abilities (as this is a technical thread) I would venture to say that maybe the 2 Ferrari drivers aren't the best in terms of setup. I am/was an ardent Kimi supporter and yet I would readily concede that his relatively short motorsport career prior to F1 probably means that he is short on setup knowledge. The other day, he made a comment basically saying "we don't know why it works when it works, and we don't know why it doesn't work when it doesn't work" (referring to tyres). Such a comment, as ArrowsF1 said at the time, really does not inspire others about the driver's technical abilities.

I will keep my opinion of Massa to myself, but I will note that in his first year in Ferrari, Massa usually said every once in a while that he was learning proper setup from Schumacher. Fair enough. But did he really learn all there was to learn from the master of setup in one year?

Ferrari has some awesome test drivers, however with new testing limits in place and the new rules on Friday practices, these drivers don't really play as important a role as they did in years gone by. Which even puts more importance on the racing drivers' technical abilities. I am not convinced in this area about the Ferrari drivers.

[mstillhere]

So, the discussion in the thread about the Ferrari contract extensions went so much in the direction of their perceived technical troubles that I thought it would be worth having a thread dedicated to this.

The views of the forum members seem to be very different over this topic.
1. Some say they have troubles getting heat into the tires.
2. Others say the car does not behave well in wet conditions.
3. Others(s) say that the car is the best but the drivers aren't good enough.

What's your view on this.

And just in case, keep it clean, I'm not interested about who's fave driver is better or nicer or more handsome and other petty fighting.
Just technical insight please.

Ferrari has had problems with tires for a long time. Only recently they seem to have had a better handle. But just when they felt like they had the whole thing figured out........the rain came. Oh, nooo!!!
So, this is how it went last year at one of their meetings:

SD: McLaren is better than us in the rain.
Massa, Kimi and everyine else: hum, hum.
SM: Should we do something about it?
Massa, Kimi and everyone else: No, really
SD: Why Not?
Massa, Kimi and everyone else: Well, how many times we drive in the rain?
SD: Almost never
Massa, Kimi and everyone else: So, let's leave the rainy GPs to McLaren so that they can win a couple of races. And since we are better in the dry
we are going to win easy. No problem.
SD: I read that global warming is changing the traditional weather patterns and we might be in trouble.
Massa, Kimi and everyone else: ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah. Get real. ah,ah,ah,ah

After the Spa and Monza meeting

SD: ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah
Massa, Kimi and everyone else:#@*&^%"@!%^*$#@

:) :)

[Rollo]

I actually think that the Ferrari is a better car:
- Ferrari have won 7 Grands Prix to McLaren's 5
- Ferrari have 7 poles to McLaren's 6
- Ferrari have 10 fastest laps to McLaren's 2
- and they are leading the constructors' championship by 5 points
McLaren's results are more heavily skewed towards Hamilton than Kovalainen, whereas Ferrari is more even.

What this suggests is that the Ferrari is probably better in most departments by maybe up to 3%, so as to why they're not leading the driver's championship or able to press the advantage of the cars comes mainly down to driver attitude and skill.

The fact is that when Kimi isn't on song, he does appear to be disinterested. We've seen this through several seasons both at McLaren and Ferrari; it's almost like if Kimi knows he's going to have an off day, then he doesn't try as hard (and there was that one occasion he deliberately detonated the engine to prove a point).

Massa whilst a very good pilot doesn't necessarily have the same level of inherant talent but he's making better use of the car because of the four letter word... work. Massa appears to be a similar sort of driver to Damon Hill, who although wasn't the best driver, if you put him into a car and told him to work at it, would deliver if given the equipment.

Hamilton on the other hand I think is technically driving a marginally worse car than the Ferrari. The deficiency therefore is either made up in skill and determination. In rainy races where driver's skill is more important, Hamilton is putting in a comparitively better showing because he is quite frankly a marginally better driver. I'd say that all things being equal, the best technical drivers out there are Hamilton, Raikkonen (who doesn't appear to be interested) and Alonso (who doesn't have the machinery).

It does make logical sense that the Ferrari should be the best car. They do the ground work more thoroughly and have a consistent development driver in Luca Badoer.

[wedge]

I think the Ferrari is about equal to the McLarens.

It's down to who can get the best out of the tyres on a given day with the Ferrari handicapped on colder and wet days.

[ioan]

I actually think that the Ferrari is a better car:
- Ferrari have won 7 Grands Prix to McLaren's 5
- Ferrari have 7 poles to McLaren's 6
- Ferrari have 10 fastest laps to McLaren's 2
- and they are leading the constructors' championship by 5 points
McLaren's results are more heavily skewed towards Hamilton than Kovalainen, whereas Ferrari is more even.

What this suggests is that the Ferrari is probably better in most departments by maybe up to 3%, so as to why they're not leading the driver's championship or able to press the advantage of the cars comes mainly down to driver attitude and skill.

The fact is that when Kimi isn't on song, he does appear to be disinterested. We've seen this through several seasons both at McLaren and Ferrari; it's almost like if Kimi knows he's going to have an off day, then he doesn't try as hard (and there was that one occasion he deliberately detonated the engine to prove a point).

Massa whilst a very good pilot doesn't necessarily have the same level of inherant talent but he's making better use of the car because of the four letter word... work. Massa appears to be a similar sort of driver to Damon Hill, who although wasn't the best driver, if you put him into a car and told him to work at it, would deliver if given the equipment.

Hamilton on the other hand I think is technically driving a marginally worse car than the Ferrari. The deficiency therefore is either made up in skill and determination. In rainy races where driver's skill is more important, Hamilton is putting in a comparitively better showing because he is quite frankly a marginally better driver. I'd say that all things being equal, the best technical drivers out there are Hamilton, Raikkonen (who doesn't appear to be interested) and Alonso (who doesn't have the machinery).

It does make logical sense that the Ferrari should be the best car. They do the ground work more thoroughly and have a consistent development driver in Luca Badoer.

In fact I think that Ferrari also had more DNF's compared to McLaren. :(

[F1boat]

In my opinion the main problem is that Ferrari lack the discipline, which they had during the MS era. They obviously have problems with the set-up on wet races as well and combined with the problem with the tyres heating, this is now big trouble.
Mclaren, I think that they are at their strongest form now since 1998, so they are a problem as well, but mainly Ferrari have themselves to blame for the pain which this championship is becoming for them.

[samuratt]

... but mainly Ferrari have themselves to blame for the pain which this championship is becoming for them.

I think so too! :up:

[fizzicist]

Thinking bigger picture for a second:

I think this actually highlights a problem in F1 - The car setups are now so knife edge as to whether it works or not, that even Ferrari, with their immense technical might, colossal budget and capabilities are encountering weekends where they just cannot get the car dialled in.

They are not alone either. Look at the huge variability in the pace of BMW from one weekend to the next. Ditto Renault and Red Bull. In fact the only consistent teams are Honda and Force India who are consistently at the back!

We're in a situation where it's a good 80% car 20% driver IMO. Only when it is wet does the balance become redressed and even then it's about 60/40.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Kimi is an incredible driver - absolutely one of the fastest out there. But the car doesn't suit him and he's nowhere. Ferrari's technical troubles are shared by us all. I can't help but feel a huge reduction in downforce, an increase in mechanical grip, less power and more torque would give us better racing.

Oh...hang on....that was the old GP2 car :p :

In all seriousness, wouldn't it be great to have cars with bugger all downforce, a ban on pnuematic and hydraulic valve damping and 3.5 litre engines. You'd have about 800hp and much bigger braking zones...I can dream

[jjanicke]

Not sure where this notion of Mclaren being "hard" on their tires has come from. Not so long ago, when the series still had 2 tire suppliers (1 for Ferrari, and 1 for the rest) Mclaren were extremely gingerly on their tires, actually leading to similar problems Kimi is currently facing at Ferrari. He has difficulty getting the max out of his tires in qualy, but given time to heat them up is faster than everyone else (as demonstrated by 9 fastest laps this year).

Where the discrepancy really shows is in the wet. Mclaren have a better wet weather car (total package), Ferrari have a better dry weather car. Other than tires the difference between wet and dry are massive. The car rides significantly higher, reducing, for instance, ground effect related downforce. It could be as simple as Ferrari having better downforce when the car is low, and Mclaren having better downforce when rain affects the ride hight.

[F1boat]

However, the difference between the Ferrari and the McLaren when it is dry is very small, while the gap between McLaren and Ferrari in the wet is enormous.

[Rollo]

In fact I think that Ferrari also had more DNF's compared to McLaren. :(

That's fact but unfortunately not within the scope of the question you asked.


The views of the forum members seem to be very different over this topic.
1. Some say they have troubles getting heat into the tires.
2. Others say the car does not behave well in wet conditions.
3. Others(s) say that the car is the best but the drivers aren't good enough.

What's your view on this.


I took option 3 which you gave us.

[wmcot]

We're in a situation where it's a good 80% car 20% driver IMO.

Funny how we were saying the same thing before the standard ECU with all the driver aids removed...

[leopard]

This still left me a question mark that Mclaren as a car is the better package to edge out Ferrari in wet. MS was telling us that Ferrari is strong provided correctness of strategy belongs at every set-up besides talent of drivers to have a hold on the rain. Toro Rosso was also telling that they are capable of driving over the rains.

The point is to have more sensitivity reading condition of the track, would they have changed tyres into intermediate ones at Monza without taking example from result that Alonso successfully have it a go?
In many occasions Massa suffers from having less grip in wet, and it doesn't seem corrective action is taken, looked as if to let the problem unsolvable. Apart from hares curse of Brithis gp...

[jens]

There is so much talk that the Ferrari is almost undrivable in the wet or whatever. If the car is sooo BAD, then... how was it possible that Massa was pulling away from everyone in the early phases of Monaco Grand Prix? How was is possible for Räikkönen to keep the pace of Hamilton during the first stint of the British Grand Prix?

I for one find it hard to believe that Ferrari is worse than Renault, Toyota, Williams, or whoever - even if it's wet. I mean those cars Ferrari was struggling to beat at Monza. Well... Some are trying to make it look like Ferrari has the worst machinery on the grid! :eek:

[SGWilko]

So, the discussion in the thread about the Ferrari contract extensions went so much in the direction of their perceived technical troubles that I thought it would be worth having a thread dedicated to this.

The views of the forum members seem to be very different over this topic.
1. Some say they have troubles getting heat into the tires.
2. Others say the car does not behave well in wet conditions.
3. Others(s) say that the car is the best but the drivers aren't good enough.

What's your view on this.

And just in case, keep it clean, I'm not interested about who's fave driver is better or nicer or more handsome and other petty fighting.
Just technical insight please.

I think that the car is not very good in wet conditions because they are unable to generate heat in the tyres. Whether that is a confidence thing the drivers lack, which escalates the issue, who knows.

When the car is in the dry and dialled in, it is the fastest out there....

[SGWilko]

Put this in the Massa/Kimi re-signed thread before I saw this one...

The Ferrari has, traditionally, been relatively easy on its tyres in "normal" conditions compared to the MP4/21, 22 & 23. That means, basically, that it doesn't put as much heat into them. Which is great when "normal" racing conditions apply (i.e - a hot spring/summer day, when most racing is expected to happen).

That tends to mean that the tyres don't get up to temperature as quickly, hence perhaps Kimi's qualifying issues, but as a result last longer at peak operating performance.

In Valencia & Hungary, two hot days, voila. Ferrari have the fastest pace and it was Mclaren who couldn't get up to their expected pace.

At Spa & Monza, where the atmospheric conditions were cold & the tracks were cold and slippery, it was inevitable that cars that can put more heat into their tyres would be better.

However, whilst it is always likely to shower at Spa, this year has seen both Monaco & Monza in unusually wet weather conditions, plus Silverstone not being dry.

Now, perhaps at Maranello the "crystal ball" isn't properly calibrated, but it would have been extreme stupidity to design a car away from the concept of one that was easy on its tyres just in case it rained at Monza.

This year has seen, at least in 50% of the races, a lower temperature than expected and in at least 3 races rain playing a vital part.

That is not a usual season and makes it impossible to have planned for.

Now, had the summer actually been a summer and not some slightly warmer version of February, I do not believe that Ferrari would be the ones having the tyre problems.

In the early days of Michelin v Bridgestone, didn't the Bibendum tyres like the hotter conditions, and the Bridgestones perform better in the cool. (the french shod teams actually kept their fronts on for the whole race) I recall expecting a Williams whitewash in Bahrain one year, but it rained just before the start and was cool, and that happens once in a blue moon in Bahrain, apparently!!!

[fizzicist]

Funny how we were saying the same thing before the standard ECU with all the driver aids removed...

yeah but the traction control loss really shows it's benefit when its wet. So more torque and less grip please...

[Garry Walker]

One serious problem for Ferrari is brakes when it is wet. That is why Kimi was having to so much earlier than Hamilton at spa when it got wet, because his brakes stopped working at all. Same problem was there for both Ferrari drivers at monza.

[wedge]

I seem to remember that Kimi doesn't like the braking system on the current Ferrari partly why he's struggling.

[Knock-on]

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8422.html

Apparently their brakes are not working in the wet so they cannot get heat into the tyres.

So, it's fixed and no more excuses.

[ShiftingGears]

One serious problem for Ferrari is brakes when it is wet. That is why Kimi was having to so much earlier than Hamilton at spa when it got wet, because his brakes stopped working at all. Same problem was there for both Ferrari drivers at monza.

Better not tell Lewis :p :

[Knock-on]

Well, I think they spent so much time looking at their brake pads and scratching their 4rses that they forgot to deliver the Engines to A1GP. :laugh:

[ioan]

deleted

[luc89]

Ever since Jean Todd and Ross Brawn left ferrari they have been having alot more trouble. In my opinion all the skrews have been loosened on the team and now the trouble have started creaping in. There have been numorous occasions when ferrari's cars have failed on the track or in the pitts. i dont believe it is the driveres faults but the management of the whole team.

[ioan]

Ever since Jean Todd and Ross Brawn left ferrari they have been having alot more trouble. In my opinion all the skrews have been loosened on the team and now the trouble have started creaping in. There have been numorous occasions when ferrari's cars have failed on the track or in the pitts. i dont believe it is the driveres faults but the management of the whole team.

Yep, I hope to see Domenicalli leave ASAP. He's very very poor as team manager. :down: