Kovy should've won the race?

[wedge]

I can't help but think that the Italian GP was there for Kovy to win.

Massa would've won, Lewis would've won, I even think Kimi would've won from that position!

[Mickey T]

i mentioned this in a Donkey of the Race post

[SGWilko]

I can't help but think that the Italian GP was there for Kovy to win.

Massa would've won, Lewis would've won, I even think Kimi would've won from that position!

HK's expression on the podium suggests he knows it too!

[wedge]

Just makes me wonder how 'over-rated' he is. Supposedly a solid driver, a good #2 in Kovy's position would've won the race.

[Knock-on]

I think he should have won but that takes nothing away from Vettel.

Perhaps the McLaren isn't as good as we think ;)

[AndyRAC]

You would expect a McLaren to beat a Toro Rosso, wouldn't you? So, yes, Heikki should've won. But he didn't and we had a new winner.

[PolePosition_1]

I can't help but think that the Italian GP was there for Kovy to win.

Massa would've won, Lewis would've won, I even think Kimi would've won from that position!

Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. That said, I think its fair to say Vettel had pace, I'd like to think that even Lewis without his extra stop would have struggled to have beaten Vettel.

Lewis, although amazingly quick at some points in the race, used up his tyres much too soon, so his amazingly quick pace wasn't sustainable, so as to whether he would have won is questionable, as I think Vettel may well have had more pace if he needed.

[wedge]

Great for Vettel, he's in a bad car and getting the maximum out of it.

Different story for Kovy, good car but struggling to get the maximum out of the car in the races.

He's usually fighting with Kubica - slightly inferior car and getting the maximum out of it.

At this stage of the season he should be getting closer to Massa.

[truefan72]

agree with everyone's comments. I've tried hard all year to give HK the benefit of the doubt, but as I said in another thread, he seems to be no more than a solid#2. Quick in a fast car, but not capable of maximizing the capability of being in a McLaren. I can think of at least 4 drivers that would have gotten more out of that car right now.

[wedge]

he seems to be no more than a solid#2.

He's not even that.

So far a #2 at best.

A solid #2 will feature on the podium regularly which is what Barrichello and DC have done.

Makes you think that there was a lot more to Kovalianen being released by Renault than the hogwash of an argument that said he'd be too quick for Fernando to have as a team-mate.

Other than winning the Race of Champions (Wow, big deal!), Kovalianen has been spectacularly average given the equipment he has had.

[Daniel]

I don't quite see how Kovalainen should have won purely because he was in a McLaren :mark:

[PETE ARON]

As someone has already pointed out, his podium and interview expression was that of a guy who expects to be fired later in the day. It was a really sorrowful look.

[jens]

I don't think we should be that hard on Kovalainen and I certainly wouldn't call him the donkey of the race. He was after all second and beat 18 other guys. He may have driven a top car, but second place is not an awful result in such conditions. IMO a lot better than P5 in a top car in dry conditions (a result we have witnessed a lot during years). Strategical choices and proper setup are actually even more important aspects in achieving a strong result than just pure driving and unlike Hamilton Heikki got these right. For this he doesn't get acknowledgement. Hamilton may have won from Heikki's position, but I'm not sure about Massa and Räikkönen to be honest.

I think the most important difference between Hamilton and Kovalainen may be the approach to races, or at least this was what I thought after Grand Prix. While following Vettel, instead of hamiltonesque approach "I'm going to catch him at every cost!" Heikki as a more cautious guy may have thought something like "How to bring this car safely home in such difficult conditions" instead. And hence no tiny attack on Vettel, but keeping his safe P2.

[savage86]

I guess we should'nt be to suprised that Kovi could not beat a Newey designed car with a Ferrari engine in it. However its a shame Vettel isnt in a Macca next year because he has better race pace than most of the drivers on the grid.

I do feel kind of sorry for Kovi he seems like a nice guy but is ending up like the kind of teammate Fisi was to Alonso at Renault :-(

[truefan72]

I don't think we should be that hard on Kovalainen and I certainly wouldn't call him the donkey of the race. He was after all second and beat 18 other guys. He may have driven a top car, but second place is not an awful result in such conditions. IMO a lot better than P5 in a top car in dry conditions (a result we have witnessed a lot during years). Strategical choices and proper setup are actually even more important aspects in achieving a strong result than just pure driving and unlike Hamilton Heikki got these right. For this he doesn't get acknowledgement. Hamilton may have won from Heikki's position, but I'm not sure about Massa and Räikkönen to be honest.

I think the most important difference between Hamilton and Kovalainen may be the approach to races, or at least this was what I thought after Grand Prix. While following Vettel, instead of hamiltonesque approach "I'm going to catch him at every cost!" Heikki as a more cautious guy may have thought something like "How to bring this car safely home in such difficult conditions" instead. And hence no tiny attack on Vettel, but keeping his safe P2.

good points and he has shown some aggression in a couple of races, but overall his performances have been wanting in comparison to the other top 3 guys out there ( although kimi hasn't been on form these past couple of weeks. But he's the current WDC and has a lengthy resume of phenominal racing, even in a weaker McLaren in years past)
He just hasn't displayed the gumption to fight for wins and or haul in more points for the team. I

[ioan]

Kovalainen winning a F1 race? Maybe if he's running 2nd and the race leader drops out just before the end of it, like in Hungary.

[ShiftingGears]

Great for Vettel, he's in a bad car and getting the maximum out of it.

Getting the maximum out of it for sure, but bad car? They were in a racelong duel with the BMWs at a dry Spa Francorchamps. In no way does that suggest a bad car.

[truefan72]

Kovalainen winning a F1 race? Maybe if he's running 2nd and the race leader drops out just before the end of it, like in Hungary.

yup

[Storm]

I have seen this happen behind the SC earlier..he just cannot keep up with the car in front at the start..here with a start under SC, even a rookie like Vettel got away pretty easily..

If it was Lewis in P2 he would have been in P1 after the first chicane or at the most the end of the lap.

[PolePosition_1]

Though I have not rated Heikki as I have found him to be dissapointing, I do think its important to point out that whilst DC and RB were solid "number 2s" in that they were regularly on the podium.

Its also important to note that in this current era of F1, the top 14 cars are split by 1s. So competition is much much tighter than ever before.

[Knock-on]

I have to say that I’m disappointed with Heikki.

I really hoped he would be able to push Lewis but it seems Lewis is more than capable of pushing himself.

It’s always difficult when you have someone come in that you know can be quick but is trounced by his team mate. You question the 2nd driver without considering the 1st.

Possibly it’s a combination of a few things. HK is more conservative and happy to bring a car home in second whereas Lewis is more aggressive and daring. It may also be skill level with Lewis just being a quicker?

Whatever it is, HK isn’t delivering as expected.

[Knock-on]

I have to say that I’m disappointed with Heikki.

I really hoped he would be able to push Lewis but it seems Lewis is more than capable of pushing himself.

It’s always difficult when you have someone come in that you know can be quick but is trounced by his team mate. You question the 2nd driver without considering the 1st.

Possibly it’s a combination of a few things. HK is more conservative and happy to bring a car home in second whereas Lewis is more aggressive and daring. It may also be skill level with Lewis just being a quicker?

Whatever it is, HK isn’t delivering as expected.

[Knock-on]

Sorry, Hiccups :D

[Simmi]

Heikki just doesn't have that cutting edge/killer instinct that Lewis and the other top drivers do. People said at the start of the season he could run his team-mate close but I've yet to really see any sign of that in a race.

Taking nothing away from Vettel, but that was surely Heikki's race against a guy of such inexperience in a slower car. I think I'm right in saying Kova has been shoddy off the line all season and I'm sure this played a big part in him losing.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Maybe we are being a a bit harsh on Kovalainen. At least he managed to qualify in a decent position in challenging conditions at Monza, when the 3 title contenders were nowhere.

[Knock-on]

Maybe we are being a a bit harsh on Kovalainen. At least he managed to qualify in a decent position in challenging conditions at Monza, when the 3 title contenders were nowhere.

I agree that he was the only one that delivered in qualifying.

It's just that I believe that in those conditions, the Ferrari and McLaren were superior to the STR so why the hell did he start and finish in 2nd?

BUT, he did do the bizzo and brought back 8 valuable points.

[truefan72]

I agree that he was the only one that delivered in qualifying.

It's just that I believe that in those conditions, the Ferrari and McLaren were superior to the STR so why the hell did he start and finish in 2nd?

BUT, he did do the bizzo and brought back 8 valuable points.

LOL

that's what he probably told the folks during their debrief. And they were probably like " thanks, good job Kovi" with no exuberance. How come his teammate manages to close up to 1 second behind Vettel from p15 and he can't even challenge the guy starting from p2.

Yeah for the first 2 laps he may have been hindered by the spary. but after things settled a bit and Sv was like 5-6 seconds ahead, Kovi should have made his move and started reeling him in. Instead we got nothing all race from him.

[Valve Bounce]

I can't help but think that the Italian GP was there for Kovy to win.

Massa would've won, Lewis would've won, I even think Kimi would've won from that position!

And if Ferrari had given me a drive, I might have won too!!

[PSfan]

I'm inclined to think that MacLeran had Their drivers on 2 completely different set-ups (Kovy on the low downforce if it stayed dry, and Hams on the high downforce because it was suppose to rain...) I think Heikki's problem was he had to keep a distance because of the spray, and once the was some good visibility, his Mac cooked the rears and he was already pretty far behind...

[Valve Bounce]

Did anyone consider that, maybe, Vettel was simply faster and drove better than the rest of them?

[gloomyDAY]

Did anyone consider that, maybe, Vettel was simply faster and drove better than the rest of them?The kitty is astonished by your outside-the-box thinking.

http://arnoldthemethodical.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/small_cat_astonished.jpg

Kovy didn't deliver. Let's move on folks, nothing to see here!

[wmcot]

I find it a bit hard to criticize the driver who finished 2nd! It's not like he was stuck down in 17th - 20th! Give the guy a break!

[Valve Bounce]

No reason to criticise Kovi - he drove exceedingly well under difficult circumstances. However, to say he shoulda won is just plain nonsense - he was beaten in all respects by a better drive by Vettel in a Torro Rosso, no less.

Let's put this into perspective and stop the Shooda, cooda wooda jive.

[ShiftingGears]

Could be that the Toro Rosso was simply the vest car for the conditions. They qualified the best (1st and 4th) out of anyone as well.

[wmcot]

Could be that the Toro Rosso was simply the vest car for the conditions. They qualified the best (1st and 4th) out of anyone as well.

Nah, it couldn't be that simple - we must spend pages of posts analyzing the race to find the real reason Vettel won. ;)

[Daniel]

Could be that the Toro Rosso was simply the vest car for the conditions. They qualified the best (1st and 4th) out of anyone as well.
I've had enough of your well reasoned and unbiased posting. If you keep on like this I'm going to report you!!!! :p

[ShiftingGears]

I've had enough of your well reasoned and unbiased posting. If you keep on like this I'm going to report you!!!! :p

:D

[PolePosition_1]

LOL

that's what he probably told the folks during their debrief. And they were probably like " thanks, good job Kovi" with no exuberance. How come his teammate manages to close up to 1 second behind Vettel from p15 and he can't even challenge the guy starting from p2.



I think you should take into account Hamiltons blistering pace wasn't sustainable. He pushed it heavy on stint after, only to find he'd used his tyres and ended up being 1s + slower than Vettel.

[truefan72]

I think you should take into account Hamiltons blistering pace wasn't sustainable. He pushed it heavy on stint after, only to find he'd used his tyres and ended up being 1s + slower than Vettel.


That being said, the car was still more than a mtach for the STR ( I' can;t beleive I saying this..) and if Hamilton could find a way with a heavier fule load and a longer stint on ttyres to get up there then surely Kovy could have found a way past Vettel with a McLaren. I am pretty sure that if Hamilton was sitting Second he would have passed Vettel or at the veryworst given him a stiff challenge for the win.

[PolePosition_1]

That being said, the car was still more than a mtach for the STR ( I' can;t beleive I saying this..) and if Hamilton could find a way with a heavier fule load and a longer stint on ttyres to get up there then surely Kovy could have found a way past Vettel with a McLaren. I am pretty sure that if Hamilton was sitting Second he would have passed Vettel or at the veryworst given him a stiff challenge for the win.

Yeah but we're talking about different circumstances.

Hamilton found his way past slower cars. Vettel was consistantly in the top 3 fastest cars lap by lap. Hamilton was fighting with cars down in 8th, 9th, 10th etc etc.

So obviously he came through much quicker, as they were travelling 2-3s slower than Vettel. If you look at Hamiltons pace near the end, it was simply not sustainable.

I think maybe Hamilton would have been able to win if he started up the grid, but just pointing out we shouldn't give Kovi too much of a hard time for his performance in Monza.

Albeit I do think he has been disappointing this season.

[wedge]

No reason to criticise Kovi - he drove exceedingly well under difficult circumstances. However, to say he shoulda won is just plain nonsense - he was beaten in all respects by a better drive by Vettel in a Torro Rosso, no less.

Let's put this into perspective and stop the Shooda, cooda wooda jive.


Could be that the Toro Rosso was simply the vest car for the conditions. They qualified the best (1st and 4th) out of anyone as well.

Not the first time Kovy's been beaten by drivers in second tier teams:

France - beaten to podium by Trulli

Valencia - beaten to podium by Kubica

[Knock-on]

Yeah but we're talking about different circumstances.

Hamilton found his way past slower cars. Vettel was consistantly in the top 3 fastest cars lap by lap. Hamilton was fighting with cars down in 8th, 9th, 10th etc etc.

So obviously he came through much quicker, as they were travelling 2-3s slower than Vettel. If you look at Hamiltons pace near the end, it was simply not sustainable.

I think maybe Hamilton would have been able to win if he started up the grid, but just pointing out we shouldn't give Kovi too much of a hard time for his performance in Monza.

Albeit I do think he has been disappointing this season.

Don't quite agree there mate.

Lewis had closed up on SV when they had both full wets on and had stopped once so he was faster.

Weather forecast was for mnore rain so McLaren may have got away with Inters on their one and only stop but went for full wets instead.

Then, the rain failed to make a appearance and SV had the perfect window to change to inters.

Lewis's tyres started to go and he had to make an unscheduled stop for tyres.

[Valve Bounce]

I watched the race on my PC with half the screen on the web telecast and half on F1.com's Live Timing, and kept a check on the gap between Vettel and the two McLarens.

When the pit stops were taken into consideration, neither McLaren ever looked like catching Vettel.

So let's cut the BS right now about anybody kooda, wooda, shooda caught Vettel - it was never going to happen. Those who turned up for the chat during the race discussed this point throughout the race.

[mstillhere]

good points and he has shown some aggression in a couple of races, but overall his performances have been wanting in comparison to the other top 3 guys out there ( although kimi hasn't been on form these past couple of weeks. But he's the current WDC and has a lengthy resume of phenominal racing, even in a weaker McLaren in years past)
He just hasn't displayed the gumption to fight for wins and or haul in more points for the team. I

So, is it why MclLaen signed a new contract with him? They needed a solid #2 so that LH would not have any problems in competing with his own team mate? The answer is obvious; YES

[ioan]

So, is it why MclLaen signed a new contract with him? They needed a solid #2 so that LH would not have any problems in competing with his own team mate? The answer is obvious; YES

To be honest to McLaren, they first tried to sign Rosberg but didn't work out, than they tried their luck with Vettel, and it didn't work out either!
Than, given that MS said he won't come back to racing in F1, Ronnie and Norbi took another look around the driver market and spotted this jobless Finnish driver! ;)
FGS he was only McLaren's 3rd choice.

[ArrowsFA1]

FGS he was only McLaren's 3rd choice.
So you say. Why is it so important to put them in order? Whatever the reasons for a driver signing or not, the fact remains that Kovalainen is a McLaren driver.

Heikki clearly looked disappointed at Monza. He probably felt it was a missed opportunity, particularly as he had outperformed the championship contenders in qualifying. He knows he is in a car capable of winning, and so far he's done ok, but should be doing better.

[ioan]

So you say. Why is it so important to put them in order?

That's the order in which they were offered a contract by McLaren, according to the press (and I'm not talking about BILD here just in case you are wiling to go down that route).
Let's make it simple:
1.If Rosberg and Williams would have accepted than it would have been game over for Vettel and Heikki.
2.If then Vettel and Red Bull would have picked up and signed the contract than Heikki would have been at maximum a test driver this season.



Whatever the reasons for a driver signing or not, the fact remains that Kovalainen is a McLaren driver.

Yes he is, and on top of that he's the weakest driver they had for a very long period! :laugh:

[Knock-on]

I watched the race on my PC with half the screen on the web telecast and half on F1.com's Live Timing, and kept a check on the gap between Vettel and the two McLarens.

When the pit stops were taken into consideration, neither McLaren ever looked like catching Vettel.

So let's cut the BS right now about anybody kooda, wooda, shooda caught Vettel - it was never going to happen. Those who turned up for the chat during the race discussed this point throughout the race.

Sorry Valve, this is not how I remembered it.

Lewis was not far from SV before he stopped for his first stop.

Seb still had a stop to make and Lewis was on fresh wets. If it had of rained, I think that Lewis would have had him but that is only opinion.

BTW, just how far behind Seb was Lewis at the end? I believe it was less than 30 seconds even though he was involved in the Massa train for quite a few laps.

Take an unscheduled stop out and where would he have been?

[jens]

2.If then Vettel and Red Bull would have picked up and signed the contract than Heikki would have been at maximum a test driver this season.


Test driver? IIRC he would have replaced Trulli at Toyota. Thank goodness he didn't finish Jarno's career, because this season has proven HK wouldn't have proven to be a better choice. :p :

[PolePosition_1]

Sorry Valve, this is not how I remembered it.

Lewis was not far from SV before he stopped for his first stop.

Seb still had a stop to make and Lewis was on fresh wets. If it had of rained, I think that Lewis would have had him but that is only opinion.

BTW, just how far behind Seb was Lewis at the end? I believe it was less than 30 seconds even though he was involved in the Massa train for quite a few laps.

Take an unscheduled stop out and where would he have been?


A pit stop was costing 30s approx.

He ended up the race 30s behind. And he did catch up the Massa train, before slipping off after not being able keep pace because of he couldn't sustain that speed as it ripped up his inters.

Before his first pit stop, Hamilton was 1.5s behind Vettel, and both had to make 1 pitstop.

Would he have caught him up? It would have been quick, but if you look at how far behind Vettel he was at end of race, and his first pit stop cost him 31s. I reckon a no would have been the case. And we have to remember Hamilton was pushing on the limit throughout the pace, what we saw was the ultimate pace. With Vettel, who knows, there is a good chance he could have responded if needed.

[slinkster]

I was hoping for more from Heikki too... I've been a bit underwhelmed on a few occasions by him; he seems to be far too cautious sometimes which isn't what I've seen from his driving in lower formulas. He did seem really disappointed on the podium and not at all happy with his performance... I just hope he pushes himself more from now on. :(

[Knock-on]

A pit stop was costing 30s approx.

He ended up the race 30s behind. And he did catch up the Massa train, before slipping off after not being able keep pace because of he couldn't sustain that speed as it ripped up his inters.

Before his first pit stop, Hamilton was 1.5s behind Vettel, and both had to make 1 pitstop.

Would he have caught him up? It would have been quick, but if you look at how far behind Vettel he was at end of race, and his first pit stop cost him 31s. I reckon a no would have been the case. And we have to remember Hamilton was pushing on the limit throughout the pace, what we saw was the ultimate pace. With Vettel, who knows, there is a good chance he could have responded if needed.

It's all subjective though.

The rain didn't come as expected and he finished 7th :D

No drama.

[Daniel]

It's all subjective though.

The rain didn't come as expected and he finished 7th :D

No drama.

Exactly. Other drivers will have slowed down towards the end so the time differences don't necessarily reflect the differences if everyone had been going at 100% for the whole of the race :)

[Valve Bounce]

Sorry Valve, this is not how I remembered it.

Lewis was not far from SV before he stopped for his first stop.

Seb still had a stop to make and Lewis was on fresh wets. If it had of rained, I think that Lewis would have had him but that is only opinion.

BTW, just how far behind Seb was Lewis at the end? I believe it was less than 30 seconds even though he was involved in the Massa train for quite a few laps.

Take an unscheduled stop out and where would he have been?

Did you follow the race on Live Timing at the same time as the ITV telecast? After the so called unscheduled pit stop (why was there a pit stop, one may ask) the race was virtually over and Lewis was on fresh tyres, or didn't you take that into consideration?

Vettel qualified better, he raced better and he won. End of Story!!

[Valve Bounce]

A pit stop was costing 30s approx.

He ended up the race 30s behind. And he did catch up the Massa train, before slipping off after not being able keep pace because of he couldn't sustain that speed as it ripped up his inters.

Before his first pit stop, Hamilton was 1.5s behind Vettel, and both had to make 1 pitstop.

Would he have caught him up? It would have been quick, but if you look at how far behind Vettel he was at end of race, and his first pit stop cost him 31s. I reckon a no would have been the case. And we have to remember Hamilton was pushing on the limit throughout the pace, what we saw was the ultimate pace. With Vettel, who knows, there is a good chance he could have responded if needed.

It seems some Poms can't accept defeat gracefully - they want to play the Shooda Kooda Wooda jive even when they lose.

[Daniel]

It seems some Poms can't accept defeat gracefully - they want to play the Shooda Kooda Wooda jive even when they lose.
Be careful VB! They'll come out with the fearsome yoghurt remark if you continue like that ;)

[Knock-on]

Did you follow the race on Live Timing at the same time as the ITV telecast? After the so called unscheduled pit stop (why was there a pit stop, one may ask) the race was virtually over and Lewis was on fresh tyres, or didn't you take that into consideration?

Vettel qualified better, he raced better and he won. End of Story!!

No, I didn't follow it on Live Timing but relied on my eyes and the timing on TV :p

Care to post a link so I better understand where you're coming from?

[jjanicke]

I can't help but think that the Italian GP was there for Kovy to win.

Massa would've won, Lewis would've won, I even think Kimi would've won from that position!

Massa would have won???? You mean the same guy that made no progress from his starting position even though his strategy was not changed mid race.

Yes Lewis and Kimi could have won if they started from 2nd, but don't kid yourself thinking Massa would have. Not only did Massa make no progress thru the field, 3 of the 5 finishers ahead of him where behind him at the start.

[jjanicke]

Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. That said, I think its fair to say Vettel had pace, I'd like to think that even Lewis without his extra stop would have struggled to have beaten Vettel.

Lewis, although amazingly quick at some points in the race, used up his tyres much too soon, so his amazingly quick pace wasn't sustainable, so as to whether he would have won is questionable, as I think Vettel may well have had more pace if he needed.

????

Lewis was on a one stop strategy that very well could have brought him the win. The reason he used up his 3rd set of tires was because they had to switch from a 1 stopper to a 2 stopper which made him push harder to make up lost ground.

[jjanicke]

Not the first time Kovy's been beaten by drivers in second tier teams:

France - beaten to podium by Trulli

Valencia - beaten to podium by Kubica

It's also not the first time Massa was beaten by 2nd tier drivers as well. Kubica, Alonso, and Heidfeld all started behind Massa in Italy, yet finished ahead.

[truefan72]

So you say. Why is it so important to put them in order? Whatever the reasons for a driver signing or not, the fact remains that Kovalainen is a McLaren driver.

Heikki clearly looked disappointed at Monza. He probably felt it was a missed opportunity, particularly as he had outperformed the championship contenders in qualifying. He knows he is in a car capable of winning, and so far he's done ok, but should be doing better.

sorry but Ion's right in this case.

It was to counter what a previous paster said as well as to clearly lay out the though process in obtaining Heikke.

And about Heikke feeling disappointed. so what. I feel disapointed every time I get beaten by the #1 guy in my tennis league. It's an honest feeling, but that doesn't negate the fact that the guy's better than me and always seems to get the better of me. I can be disappointed all I want but unless I improve my game, those new racquets that I bought and k-swiss shoes and all the "better equipment" I seem to have over him, is still no match for his talent..or my lack of it in comparison.
Heikke had a far superior car and should have done more with it than holding station ( and losing ground) over the entire race to Sebastian Vettel in an STR

[truefan72]

That's the order in which they were offered a contract by McLaren, according to the press (and I'm not talking about BILD here just in case you are wiling to go down that route).
Let's make it simple:
1.If Rosberg and Williams would have accepted than it would have been game over for Vettel and Heikki.
2.If then Vettel and Red Bull would have picked up and signed the contract than Heikki would have been at maximum a test driver this season.



Yes he is, and on top of that he's the weakest driver they had for a very long period! :laugh:

agreed

[Speedworx]

2nd was the best Heikki could expect. Had it been dry, Heikki woulda won. As it was, the T.Rosso was faster.

Anyone that slags off Heikki is an idiot!

a: he doesn't cheat (aka Lewis)

b: he doesn't drive diry (aka Lewis)

[Valve Bounce]

No, I didn't follow it on Live Timing but relied on my eyes and the timing on TV :p

Care to post a link so I better understand where you're coming from?

http://www.formula1.com/

Go to services, and select Live Timing on the sub menu.

http://www.formula1.com/services/live_timing/

You will then need to register.

This will give you the position of every car, the lap times, sector times and gaps between the cars for each lap for the entire race. It also gives you when any car does its best lap of the race to that lap, and fastest lap and sector times.

You can also select sub menus on the side of the grid for weather and lap charts.

It also tells you when cars are in the pits and and how much fuel the car has taken.

If you are watching the race on TV, then you will need a lap top and wi fi.

[Valve Bounce]

2nd was the best Heikki could expect. Had it been dry, Heikki woulda won. As it was, the T.Rosso was faster.

Anyone that slags off Heikki is an idiot!

a: he doesn't cheat (aka Lewis)

b: he doesn't drive diry (aka Lewis)

You forgot wooda's pals shooda and kooda.

[jjanicke]

2nd was the best Heikki could expect. Had it been dry, Heikki woulda won. As it was, the T.Rosso was faster.

Anyone that slags off Heikki is an idiot!

a: he doesn't cheat (aka Lewis)

b: he doesn't drive diry (aka Lewis)

(a) He cheat's?

(b) And Lewis is certainly not a despicable or disgusting driver! Perhaps one of the best, ever. (before anyone goes off I'm not a LH fan)

[ioan]

agreed

:eek: What? Wait a moment, somethings wrong with the script!

Just kidding! ;)
Good to see that we agree sometimes, even if we often don't! :)

[markabilly]

Vettel qualified better, he raced better and he won. End of Story!!


Too boring. Too many facts. I like shooda wooda kooda much better. It is a story that never quits repeating itself. Nothing like a warm fire, a good shooda wooda kooda book and a mug of koolaid.

[wedge]

It's also not the first time Massa was beaten by 2nd tier drivers as well. Kubica, Alonso, and Heidfeld all started behind Massa in Italy, yet finished ahead.

At least the Ferraris have a decent excuse, their cars doesn't work as well in the wet.


Too boring. Too many facts. I like shooda wooda kooda much better. It is a story that never quits repeating itself. Nothing like a warm fire, a good shooda wooda kooda book and a mug of koolaid.

One of Murray Walkers favourite sayings is "F1 spelt backwards is IF".

[truefan72]

:eek: What? Wait a moment, somethings wrong with the script!

Just kidding! ;)
Good to see that we agree sometimes, even if we often don't! :)

LOL, you live (post) long enough and anything's possible.

Seriously, it was a good and valid point and you were right!

[Valve Bounce]

At least the Ferraris have a decent excuse, their cars doesn't work as well in the wet.

.

So does St Kilda - they didn't play so good last night at all.

[jjanicke]

At least the Ferraris have a decent excuse, their cars doesn't work as well in the wet.

It sure didn't look that bad during the 1st stint of Silverstone. Kimi was right on Hamilton's tail. It wasn't until a Ferrari strategy faux pa, putting the wrong tires on Kimi's car, that they couldn't keep pace anymore.

[aryan]

Yes he is, and on top of that he's the weakest driver they had for a very long period! :laugh:

didn't know you were such a big fan of Montoya, ioan! ;)

On a more serious note, yes, I also distinctly remember that McLaren and specially Lewis were mad about Rosberg and Vettel before turning their attention to Heikki, who was clearly a third choice for them.

[aryan]

It seems some Poms can't accept defeat gracefully - they want to play the Shooda Kooda Wooda jive even when they lose.

I'm no Pom, and I did watch live timing, and I tell you, Hamilton was mighty fast and would have had a good chance of winning the GP had it rained.

But obviously, it didn't, and this is all hypothetical. One can not just add 30 seconds to Hamilton's time to see where he would have ended. Vettel might have lifted up his game, for example.

It sure didn't look that bad during the 1st stint of Silverstone. Kimi was right on Hamilton's tail. It wasn't until a Ferrari strategy faux pa, putting the wrong tires on Kimi's car, that they couldn't keep pace anymore.

Erm, it wasn't raining at the end of the 1st stint, which is when Kimi was catching Hamilton.

In other words, when the track conditions began to favour the Ferrari, finally allowing it to get some heat in the tyres, the Ferrari started to be the quickest thing on the circuit.

But when the rain came down at the start, Kimi was not "right on Hamilton's tail".

[Knock-on]

http://www.formula1.com/

Go to services, and select Live Timing on the sub menu.

http://www.formula1.com/services/live_timing/

You will then need to register.

This will give you the position of every car, the lap times, sector times and gaps between the cars for each lap for the entire race. It also gives you when any car does its best lap of the race to that lap, and fastest lap and sector times.

You can also select sub menus on the side of the grid for weather and lap charts.

It also tells you when cars are in the pits and and how much fuel the car has taken.

If you are watching the race on TV, then you will need a lap top and wi fi.

I use live timings a lot but to back up your claim, you need to produce a link with lap by lap race positions with timings.

Link Please

[wedge]

I use live timings a lot but to back up your claim, you need to produce a link with lap by lap race positions with timings.

Link Please

http://www.f1matrix.it/

Have fun!

[PolePosition_1]

????

Lewis was on a one stop strategy that very well could have brought him the win. The reason he used up his 3rd set of tires was because they had to switch from a 1 stopper to a 2 stopper which made him push harder to make up lost ground.

My point is Jjanicke, once Vettel had done his first stop, so Hamilton and Vettel BOTH had just 1 stop to make. Hamilton was 1.5s behind Vettel, both had 1 stop to make. Lewis's pitstops during the race were costing 30s.

Lewis finished 30s behind Vettel at the end of the race. And we all know Hamilton pushed like a mad-man over the second half of the race, so we can be sure that was his ultimate pace. So even if he didn't have to make that second stop, its absolutely no garantuee he'd have won. By timings alone, if we exclude his second stop, he'd have finished pretty much with Vettel. But was Vettel pushing it to the max? Fact he wasn't pressured heavily suggests he had more speed. Plus we also have to take into account Hamilton trying to overtake Vettel.

[PolePosition_1]

2nd was the best Heikki could expect. Had it been dry, Heikki woulda won. As it was, the T.Rosso was faster.

Anyone that slags off Heikki is an idiot!

a: he doesn't cheat (aka Lewis)

b: he doesn't drive diry (aka Lewis)

When has Lewis cheated? When has he driven dirty? Whats your definition of dirty driving? Who do you support?

[PolePosition_1]

Knock On - you should also check out http://www.visionf1.com/

Amazing website for reviewing races :)

[Knock-on]

Did you follow the race on Live Timing at the same time as the ITV telecast? After the so called unscheduled pit stop (why was there a pit stop, one may ask) the race was virtually over and Lewis was on fresh tyres, or didn't you take that into consideration?

Vettel qualified better, he raced better and he won. End of Story!!

OK, one thing we both agree on is Vettel qualified better and won.

They both raced very well and Vettel throughly deserved the win.

As for the rest of you assumptions about timings, they are innacurate.

Vettel stopped on lap 18. The gap was +40 sec.

Hamilton battled back and was 1 second behind on lap 26 with them both to make a stop.

Lewis pits and comes out 33 seconds on Lap 28 and gets the gap down to 30 seconds.

However, this is where the predicted rain never materialises and both drivers tear up their wets.

They both pit on Lap 36 with Lewis coming out 34 seconds behind SV.

This is the "so called unscheduled" stop where Lewis was on the wets and had no option but to take on Inters.

All I was saying was that if the rain had of come in around lap 30 as predicted, Lewis would have been right up the pipe of SV at worse after his stop on lap 36.

Is that a bit clearer.

(Thanks wedge. Superb site and just what I was looking for)

[Knock-on]

Knock On - you should also check out http://www.visionf1.com/

Amazing website for reviewing races :)

That is excellent. I bumped it up to 64X and laughed my tits off :D

[ioan]

That is excellent. I bumped it up to 64X and laughed my tits off :D

:rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

OK, one thing we both agree on is Vettel qualified better and won.

They both raced very well and Vettel throughly deserved the win.

As for the rest of you assumptions about timings, they are innacurate.

Vettel stopped on lap 18. The gap was +40 sec.

Hamilton battled back and was 1 second behind on lap 26 with them both to make a stop.

Lewis pits and comes out 33 seconds on Lap 28 and gets the gap down to 30 seconds.

However, this is where the predicted rain never materialises and both drivers tear up their wets.

They both pit on Lap 36 with Lewis coming out 34 seconds behind SV.

This is the "so called unscheduled" stop where Lewis was on the wets and had no option but to take on Inters.

All I was saying was that if the rain had of come in around lap 30 as predicted, Lewis would have been right up the pipe of SV at worse after his stop on lap 36.

Is that a bit clearer.

(Thanks wedge. Superb site and just what I was looking for)


Yeah I agree, looking at the facts, Hamilton would without a doubt have been near Vettel. I'm just pouring scorn on the fact that some people are saying Hamilton would have won the race hands down if not for his second stop. Its just simply not the case. Vettel did have real true fast pace. And with that taken into account, we shouldn't be too harsh on Heikki.

[Knock-on]

Yeah I agree, looking at the facts, Hamilton would without a doubt have been near Vettel. I'm just pouring scorn on the fact that some people are saying Hamilton would have won the race hands down if not for his second stop. Its just simply not the case. Vettel did have real true fast pace. And with that taken into account, we shouldn't be too harsh on Heikki.

What I don't understand is that the McLaren could be driven faster as demonstrated by Lewis.

I like HK but he needs to step up to the plate a bit more.

As for Lewis, I don't think you could say that he definatly would have won. However, he would have been close and in the wet conditions, I would have put money on him doing it. From a dismal start to the weekend, he came on strong and if it had of rained as predicted, I think there was a better than even chance he would have won it.

As it was, it didn't rain and he didn't win, SV did and deserved to and HK could have done more with the car under him IMHO.

[jjanicke]

My point is Jjanicke, once Vettel had done his first stop, so Hamilton and Vettel BOTH had just 1 stop to make. Hamilton was 1.5s behind Vettel, both had 1 stop to make. Lewis's pitstops during the race were costing 30s.

Lewis finished 30s behind Vettel at the end of the race. And we all know Hamilton pushed like a mad-man over the second half of the race, so we can be sure that was his ultimate pace. So even if he didn't have to make that second stop, its absolutely no garantuee he'd have won. By timings alone, if we exclude his second stop, he'd have finished pretty much with Vettel. But was Vettel pushing it to the max? Fact he wasn't pressured heavily suggests he had more speed. Plus we also have to take into account Hamilton trying to overtake Vettel.

Poleposition I agree with everything you say. I'm not saying Lewis would have won, only that he had a very good chance of doing so if he had not had to stop again. For sure second was in his sights, which is a lot better than what Kimi, Massa and (in relation to where he started) Kovi did.

[jjanicke]

Erm, it wasn't raining at the end of the 1st stint, which is when Kimi was catching Hamilton.

In other words, when the track conditions began to favour the Ferrari, finally allowing it to get some heat in the tyres, the Ferrari started to be the quickest thing on the circuit.

But when the rain came down at the start, Kimi was not "right on Hamilton's tail".

Perhaps it wasn't raining, but the track was still very wet. However Lewis and Kimi did not use the same tire type for the second stint, and that's when Kimi couldn't keep pace. All I am saying is you can't use Silverstone as a clear indication of wet weather performance of the Mac vs the Ferrari. They went with different tires.

[Knock-on]

Poleposition I agree with everything you say. I'm not saying Lewis would have won, only that he had a very good chance of doing so if he had not had to stop again. For sure second was in his sights, which is a lot better than what Kimi, Massa and (in relation to where he started) Kovi did.

:up:

Spot on.

[Valve Bounce]

OK, one thing we both agree on is Vettel qualified better and won.

They both raced very well and Vettel throughly deserved the win.

As for the rest of you assumptions about timings, they are innacurate.

Vettel stopped on lap 18. The gap was +40 sec.

Hamilton battled back and was 1 second behind on lap 26 with them both to make a stop.

Lewis pits and comes out 33 seconds on Lap 28 and gets the gap down to 30 seconds.

However, this is where the predicted rain never materialises and both drivers tear up their wets.

They both pit on Lap 36 with Lewis coming out 34 seconds behind SV.

This is the "so called unscheduled" stop where Lewis was on the wets and had no option but to take on Inters.

All I was saying was that if the rain had of come in around lap 30 as predicted, Lewis would have been right up the pipe of SV at worse after his stop on lap 36.

Is that a bit clearer.

(Thanks wedge. Superb site and just what I was looking for)

OK, I concede I was wrong and Lewis Hamilton should have won. Happy??


I have a ticket to the Grand Final in front of the corporate boxes, and I couldn't give a damn about who wooda shooda kooda won at Monza.

[Knock-on]

OK, I concede I was wrong and Lewis Hamilton should have won. Happy??


I have a ticket to the Grand Final in front of the corporate boxes, and I couldn't give a damn about who wooda shooda kooda won at Monza.

So gracious in defeat :kiss:

Grand final of what?

[Roamy]

I can't help but think that the Italian GP was there for Kovy to win.

Massa would've won, Lewis would've won, I even think Kimi would've won from that position!
Vettlel should have won and he did. He put is car on pole and drove off just like champions do. The rest had their chance and couldn't get it up on one of the premier speed tracks in F1. Remarkable performance by Vettel and the team as well.

[Dave B]

Lewis could have won. But he didn't.

Kovy possibly should have won. But he didn't.

You might argue that either of the Ferrari drivers should have challenged for the win. But they didn't.

Sure the weather played a part, but Vettel didn't luck into this win. He was quick all weekend, got his qualifying absolutely perfect and drove a superb race. Fousto's right on this one :up:

[ioan]

Lewis could have won. But he didn't.

Kovy possibly should have won. But he didn't.

You might argue that either of the Ferrari drivers should have challenged for the win. But they didn't.

Sure the weather played a part, but Vettel didn't luck into this win. He was quick all weekend, got his qualifying absolutely perfect and drove a superb race. Fousto's right on this one :up:

:up:

[Knock-on]

Lewis could have won. But he didn't.

Kovy possibly should have won. But he didn't.

You might argue that either of the Ferrari drivers should have challenged for the win. But they didn't.

Sure the weather played a part, but Vettel didn't luck into this win. He was quick all weekend, got his qualifying absolutely perfect and drove a superb race. Fousto's right on this one :up:

I agree.

Things could have been different but were not.

Vettell did a superb job and rightly deserved the win.

[Daniel]

So gracious in defeat :kiss:

Grand final of what?
Aerial ping pong I assume :)

[ShiftingGears]

So gracious in defeat :kiss:

Grand final of what?

Fumbleball :D

[Valve Bounce]

Ozzy Rules!!

[Knock-on]

Ozzy Rules!!


I watched Kerry in the Celtic Footy recently. Cross between Aussie rules and Rugby. Excellent game.

[Garry Walker]

Yes he is, and on top of that he's the weakest driver they had for a very long period! :laugh:
:D indeed!!!!!

As a Ferrari fan, I find that very good.
As a race fan, dissapointing, because he is wasting a good seat.

[ioan]

:D indeed!!!!!

As a Ferrari fan, I find that very good.
As a race fan, dissapointing, because he is wasting a good seat.

Still it seems that we shouldn't criticize him cause he's driving a McLaren! ;)

[Garry Walker]

Still it seems that we shouldn't criticize him cause he's driving a McLaren! ;)

Indeed, maybe we should praise him as much as possible in the hope of McLaren retaining him for a few more year

But Ron has always liked blond finnish boys, so maybe we don`t need to do much ;)

[ioan]

Indeed, maybe we should praise him as much as possible in the hope of McLaren retaining him for a few more year

But Ron has always liked blond finnish boys, so maybe we don`t need to do much ;)

Good point! ;)

[DexDexter]

Still it seems that we shouldn't criticize him cause he's driving a McLaren! ;)

Well Heikki is certainly better than De la Rosa or Coulthard, how many years did Coulthard drive for the team? So he could be there for a while.

[Valve Bounce]

I watched Kerry in the Celtic Footy recently. Cross between Aussie rules and Rugby. Excellent game.

Great game. Then there is another game they play in Ireland called Hurling where they whack a ball with this club. Occasionally, they would also hit the head of an opponent. (check it out with google). One year, they had the championship final of both games one after the other and I still have it on tape. Interesting that half the members of one of the teams were from the same family.

[ShiftingGears]

Well Heikki is certainly better than De la Rosa or Coulthard, how many years did Coulthard drive for the team? So he could be there for a while.

Coulthards best at McLaren > Heikki's best at McLaren, to date.

[Ranger]

Well Heikki is certainly better than De la Rosa or Coulthard, how many years did Coulthard drive for the team? So he could be there for a while.

At the moment, Heikki's performances are similar to Eddie Irvine's. i.e. Rather average and can only win in a title-contending car when others in front of him fall off the road. We'll see if that changes.

When DC was in a McLaren, he was often faster than Mika, and finished ahead in the WDC more than once against the double world champion. Things that should be taken into consideration are the number of times his car blew up or when he had to yield to Mika. Yes, Heikki has had some bad luck this year, but even so he has not looked at all spectacular.

To say Heikki is better than DC was in a top car is simply wrong, IMO.

[ioan]

Well Heikki is certainly better than De la Rosa or Coulthard...

I'm no DC fan, but still I disagree.

[Knock-on]

At the moment, Heikki's performances are similar to Eddie Irvine's. i.e. Rather average and can only win in a title-contending car when others in front of him fall off the road. We'll see if that changes.

When DC was in a McLaren, he was often faster than Mika, and finished ahead in the WDC more than once against the double world champion. Things that should be taken into consideration are the number of times his car blew up or when he had to yield to Mika. Yes, Heikki has had some bad luck this year, but even so he has not looked at all spectacular.

To say Heikki is better than DC was in a top car is simply wrong, IMO.

He seems to be going backwards this year race on race.

I'm not doing a Tifosi fan special and calling for decapitation of the poor boy but I am struggleing to see what he's playing at. I think that he's a lot more capable than what he's showing us.

McLaren need to figure out how to get him contributing again.

[jens]

I would give Heikki 2009 season in McLaren too, but with the demand of needing to perform. If pace-wise he'll be so far behind Lewis in 2009 too, then this should be his last year in the team.

[F1boat]

Maybe McLaren like to have a 2nd driver clearly slower than the top guy and thus avoiding problems like last year.

[truefan72]

Maybe McLaren like to have a 2nd driver clearly slower than the top guy and thus avoiding problems like last year.

not the case.

Heikke has shown to be a liability to the team this year to make that argument sound. He has lost valuable WDC points opportunites this year. Has never challenged those ahead of him in the race and seems to lack consistnet pace on race day driving what is arguably one of the 4 fastest cars on the grid. If points were awarded after Quali then I'd say he's right there. But they are not. It is how you finish the race that matters.

Now after Singapore, he states that he' is ready to help the team to win both titles in an effort to prove his worth.

So I will see what these next three races are hging to show me. I don't need him to cede to LH. I just need him to perform very well to keep the two ferrari's in check and take away as many points from them as possible.

Ferrari have already come out and declared they are going for 1-2's in the last 3 races. Thast should be McLaren's goals as well and Heike's motivation.
Finish ahead of massa!

[Garry Walker]

Thast should be McLaren's goals as well and Heike's motivation.
Finish ahead of massa!
Massa laughs at kovalainen.

[jjanicke]

Massa laughs at kovalainen.

Apparently only when leading.

When not (leading) Massa can't do anything.

[Garry Walker]

Apparently only when leading.

When not (leading) Massa can't do anything.

Don`t drink&post.

[truefan72]

Apparently only when leading.

When not (leading) Massa can't do anything.


yup

and when being chased down by top drivers ( Alonso in Germany 07, LH in Germany 08) he has nothing for them and predictably yields the position.

[jens]

yup

and when being chased down by top drivers ( Alonso in Germany 07, LH in Germany 08) he has nothing for them and predictably yields the position.

I thought Massa fought hard at the 2007 European Grand Prix and the two cars almost touched, but Alonso was so much quicker (2 sec per lap) that his pass sooner or later was almost inevitable.

Maybe Mclaren should try "rebuilding" Kovalianen?

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again”

Copyright Ron Dennis 2008.

Hmmm...have Mclaren lost their Loctite sponsorship?

Maybe Mclaren should try "rebuilding" Kovalianen?

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again”

Copyright Ron Dennis 2008.

Hmmm...have Mclaren lost their Loctite sponsorship?

[Knock-on]

Maybe Mclaren should try "rebuilding" Kovalianen?

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again”

Copyright Ron Dennis 2008.

Hmmm...have Mclaren lost their Loctite sponsorship?

PML :laugh:

I was thinking this the other day.

Heikki is a weird one and no mistake, guv.

When he got to McLaren, he settled in and was getting faster. McLaren did do a good job getting him up to speed and it looked a great decision from Ron.

What has happened now I have no idea. Perhaps he thought he was going to challenge Lewis and has been blown away. Perhaps he has lost his confidence or perhaps he's just lost a bit of enthusiasm.

Who knows but it's got to be turned around soon.

I'll see what I can find out at the weekend.