Starting the race under the safety car. What a bunch of BS...

[Kevincal]

So I was really looking forward to an exciting start of this race because the field is so scrambled, and then they go and pussify the first few laps. It's almost as if they were giving Vettel training wheels to ease him into a comfortable first place. I think there is a very high probability that Vettel would have been passed going into the first corner if the race was started like it's supposed to be started, from a stop on the grid. Not to mention Kimi, Lewis and Felipe surely would have made many positions on the start and made for a much more interesting race up front, instead of an interesting race mid-pack where hardly any points are up for grabs...

That said, Vettel did drive very well today and didn't make any mistakes. Of course he had the benefit of pulling out the huge lead after the safety car... Even a Honda would have pulled out a similiar lead in those conditions... Vettel didn't have any pressure the whole race because of the 10 second gap he got in the opening laps when the track was the wettest and everyone couldn't see except him. It made the race a sort of farce in my opinion.

Of course you who disagree with me will say it was purely from a safety standpoint... Thing is, I can remember many races as wet as this or wetter that were started from the grid in recent years... Something just doesn't set right with me about this race starting behind the SC...

[Sleeper]

Got to admit, I'm not entirely sure why this race was started behind the saftey car. I've seen wetter starts before an they were fine. DC suggested that it would be the spray at the start that would be the problem but I dont see how he saftey car helped this, if anything it made it worse.

I dont agree with everything else you said though. Your making a lot of asumptions based on nothing.

[Kevincal]

Would you please elaborate on your last sentence Sleeper...

Look at it this way. If they would have started on the grid, Vettel would have been 100 times more nervous and more likely than not would not have gotten a good start from a dead stop on a wet track. He is a rookie afterall, I'm sure the veterans could pull off a better start in such conditions a higher % of the time because of their experience and lack of nervousness combined. It just feels too much like he was handed this win...

For someones first win, I'd rather they earn it a bit more by pulling off a good start, from the grid, and keeping everone behind them going into the first turn. Basically he got a 10 second head start at the beginning of the race. That let him go from extremely nervous to quite comfortable. As a former racer myself, I know that a big part of racing is nerves and mindset going into the start of the race. I also know the start of the race is the most critical, and starting behind a safety car in a follow the leader fashion is not a real start.

[elinagr]

is simple sense, to avoid 20 cars crash on the 1st corner

[F1boat]

Maybe the organizers decided not to risk losing half of the field and is not some pro-Vettel conspiracy.

[ArrowsFA1]

Given Monza's layout and the conditions it was a sensible decision.

[truefan72]

So I was really looking forward to an exciting start of this race because the field is so scrambled, and then they go and pussify the first few laps. It's almost as if they were giving Vettel training wheels to ease him into a comfortable first place. I think there is a very high probability that Vettel would have been passed going into the first corner if the race was started like it's supposed to be started, from a stop on the grid. Not to mention Kimi, Lewis and Felipe surely would have made many positions on the start and made for a much more interesting race up front, instead of an interesting race mid-pack where hardly any points are up for grabs...

That said, Vettel did drive very well today and didn't make any mistakes. Of course he had the benefit of pulling out the huge lead after the safety car... Even a Honda would have pulled out a similiar lead in those conditions... Vettel didn't have any pressure the whole race because of the 10 second gap he got in the opening laps when the track was the wettest and everyone couldn't see except him. It made the race a sort of farce in my opinion.

Of course you who disagree with me will say it was purely from a safety standpoint... Thing is, I can remember many races as wet as this or wetter that were started from the grid in recent years... Something just doesn't set right with me about this race starting behind the SC...

I agree with you on this Kevincal

furthermore, it killed any chance for Bourdais to save his day and stay on the lead lap, as the parade lap would have given his crew time to fix the problem and start the race at the tail end. instead, he was already a lap down by the time the cars rolled around again.

I saw no need for the SC start other than to destroy one of the most exciting parts of the race.

[BDunnell]

As a rule, I don't like starts under the SC, but the visibility was really appalling under the trees.

[ioan]

Would you please elaborate on your last sentence Sleeper...

Look at it this way. If they would have started on the grid, Vettel would have been 100 times more nervous and more likely than not would not have gotten a good start from a dead stop on a wet track. He is a rookie afterall, I'm sure the veterans could pull off a better start in such conditions a higher % of the time because of their experience and lack of nervousness combined. It just feels too much like he was handed this win...

For someones first win, I'd rather they earn it a bit more by pulling off a good start, from the grid, and keeping everone behind them going into the first turn. Basically he got a 10 second head start at the beginning of the race. That let him go from extremely nervous to quite comfortable. As a former racer myself, I know that a big part of racing is nerves and mindset going into the start of the race. I also know the start of the race is the most critical, and starting behind a safety car in a follow the leader fashion is not a real start.

So, now the FIA are also biased towards Torro Rosso?!

And he was only a fraction of a second in front of Heikki going into Parabolica, and he managed to put 2 seconds on him in one lap. I really don't see where was he handed a 10 seconds head start as you suggest.

[BDunnell]

So, now the FIA are also biased towards Torro Rosso?!

And he was only a fraction of a second in front of Heikki going into Parabolica, and he managed to put 2 seconds on him in one lap. I really don't see where was he handed a 10 seconds head start as you suggest.

Yes, the fact that Vettel pulled away for lap after lap proves it was as deserving a victory as they come.

[Daniel]

definitely the right decision. Considering how few incidents there were I would have thought it was obvious that it was the right choice.

[BDunnell]

definitely the right decision. Considering how few incidents there were I would have thought it was obvious that it was the right choice.

Although I would add that I'd hate to see the SC being used for starts any more than is already the case, because drivers can't always be wrapped up in cotton wool.

Before anyone says anything, this is not me saying that I want to see people being injured or worse.

[wedge]

It was the right decision.

Have you not noticed the special low aero package? They won't generate much downforce. Cold brakes, cold tyres.

[speeddurango]

Of course you who disagree with me will say it was purely from a safety standpoint... Thing is, I can remember many races as wet as this or wetter that were started from the grid in recent years... Something just doesn't set right with me about this race starting behind the SC...

If you put on full wets, you start behind SC, it is written in the rule, and also, the last race started in such condition as standing start was not recent years.

[Shifter]

The purist in me hates it, however...

At Monza, under those conditions, a number of drivers could have wound up with smashed cars, and just what would be left to watch for the rest of the race? We only have 20 cars in F1 and only about half of them are competitive entries!

[Kevincal]

Yes, the fact that Vettel pulled away for lap after lap proves it was as deserving a victory as they come.

Vettel was pulling away so much at the start because that was when the track was the wettest and the spray was the worst. He had a clear track whereas everyone else was driving blind. It had nothing to do with him driving better than anyone else... Of course he did drive a solid race overall and managed to not make any mistakes, so I give him respect for that. Still...

[ShiftingGears]

What can I say? It's a pro-Vettel conspiracy. The facts are there.

[Daniel]

What can I say? It's a pro-Vettel conspiracy. The facts are there.
Who makes the engine in the STR? ;)

[Azumanga Davo]

Who makes the engine in the STR? ;)

Mein gott, it's all true. :D :p :

[SGWilko]

is simple sense, to avoid 20 cars crash on the 1st corner

Is someone else using your login? I agree 100%.

Where has the rude person gone that normally posts under this name, bad mouthing Brits....?

[Azumanga Davo]

Is someone else using your login? I agree 100%.

Where has the rude person gone that normally posts under this name, bad mouthing Brits....?

Missed that one entirely. :p :

[Knock-on]

If you put on full wets, you start behind SC, it is written in the rule, and also, the last race started in such condition as standing start was not recent years.


I wasn't aware of that.

I hate seeing races started behind the SC but understand what people say about avoiding carnage :D

Mind you, it's that second between the lights going off and 20 cars struggleing to find the optimal balance between 900hp, a couple of square inches of rubber and a bit of tarmac that gets me every time.

[SGWilko]

I wasn't aware of that.

I hate seeing races started behind the SC but understand what people say about avoiding carnage :D

Mind you, it's that second between the lights going off and 20 cars struggleing to find the optimal balance between 900hp, a couple of square inches of rubber and a bit of tarmac that gets me every time.

I think that the rule is as follows - CMIIAW

If the race is wet and starts behind the SC, ALL cars (including Ferrari, who shall be notified by smoke signals, snail mail, loud haler etc ;) ) must start on full wets.

So the wording of the post should have been - If you start behing the SC, you start on full wets, not Vice Versa.

[Dave B]

...and then they go and pussify the first few laps.

Of course you who disagree with me will say it was purely from a safety standpoint... Thing is, I can remember many races as wet as this or wetter that were started from the grid in recent years... Something just doesn't set right with me about this race starting behind the SC...

Of course, were this to happen in an American series they'd probably have postponed the race until Monday. :p

[jens]

I think starting behind the safety car was a sensible decision, because as you could see the spray was enormous and visibility very poor, when they finally got going. Remember what Kubica said that the press conference - he suddenly realized he was ahead of Heidfeld, although he had no idea, how that had happened.

After Belgium '98 races in very wet conditions have been started behind the SC, because the race organizers can't afford a red-flagged race and a delay for a restart due to the interests of TV companies. When was the last time, when we got a red flag after the start - German Grand Prix in 2001?

[schmenke]

I think that the rule is as follows - CMIIAW

If the race is wet and starts behind the SC, ALL cars (including Ferrari, who shall be notified by smoke signals, snail mail, loud haler etc ;) ) must start on full wets.

So the wording of the post should have been - If you start behing the SC, you start on full wets, not Vice Versa.

Yup,

Sporting Regulations, section 25:

"25) SUPPLY OF TYRES IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND TYRE LIMITATION DURING THE EVENT

...

25.4 Use of tyres :

e) If the race is started behind the safety car because of heavy rain (see Article 40.16) the use of extreme-weather tyres until the safety car returns to the pits is compulsory."

[cosmicpanda]

I think starting behind the safety car was a sensible decision, because as you could see the spray was enormous and visibility very poor, when they finally got going. Remember what Kubica said that the press conference - he suddenly realized he was ahead of Heidfeld, although he had no idea, how that had happened.

After Belgium '98 races in very wet conditions have been started behind the SC, because the race organizers can't afford a red-flagged race and a delay for a restart due to the interests of TV companies. When was the last time, when we got a red flag after the start - German Grand Prix in 2001?

The European Grand Prix last year was red flagged after four laps.

[ShiftingGears]

Considering the difference in braking distances between cars being more varied in the wet than in the dry, it was a good call to start under the safety car. I didn't like it at the time (partly because of what the 1st 20 laps of Fuji '07 were like), but in retrospect it was a good call. I was also quite surprised at how there were no safety cars after the start. What a relief!

[CNR]

this is a hard one to call

4 or 5 years ago there was a champcars race where it was raining.
Total carnage at the start of the race and the rest of the race was run under safty car

[leopard]

Supposing some of people's accusation about conspiracy was right, instead of starting race behind SC was made in favor of Toro Rosso engine, it apparently broke record of the youngest race winner ever from Alonso.

[Kevincal]

Here's a thought. With all of the money involved in F1...they couldn't get a NASCAR type track blower to blow the excess water from the grid and straight going into the first turn before the start of the race!?!?!?

[ShiftingGears]

Here's a thought. With all of the money involved in F1...they couldn't get a NASCAR type track blower to blow the excess water from the grid and straight going into the first turn before the start of the race!?!?!?

It was still raining!

[Kevincal]

Yes but a lot of the water on track had been pooling in a lot of areas, the blower could help significantly. On the formation lap, the blower could follow the pack of cars and blow off the grid and straight going into turn 1 just before the race started! It would be perfect! A lot better than a ridiculous follow the leader start...

[wmcot]

Here's a thought. With all of the money involved in F1...they couldn't get a NASCAR type track blower to blow the excess water from the grid and straight going into the first turn before the start of the race!?!?!?

I think that's what the idea was by having the cars with their extreme wets remove a lot of the standing water while following the pace car. I don't see a problem with starting behind the pace car in extreme conditions.

I do think they should use blowers similar to the NASCAR ones for blowing debris off the track whenever a safety car period is needed after an accident (they do that under a full-course yellow in ALMS sometimes.)

[leopard]

Yeah, I see it very possible at Indy the run-off water at the track siphoned off to the lake. :)

[ioan]

Here's a thought. With all of the money involved in F1...they couldn't get a NASCAR type track blower to blow the excess water from the grid and straight going into the first turn before the start of the race!?!?!?

This aint NASCAR.
Do they race in NASCAR at all if it's raining? Not sure about it.
And they need those blowers to dry the track exactly because they are afraid of driving on a wet track.

[Knock-on]

Yup,

Sporting Regulations, section 25:

"25) SUPPLY OF TYRES IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND TYRE LIMITATION DURING THE EVENT

...

25.4 Use of tyres :

e) If the race is started behind the safety car because of heavy rain (see Article 40.16) the use of extreme-weather tyres until the safety car returns to the pits is compulsory."

Thanks Schmenke and SGWilco

That's what I understood as well. Thought I had missed something with Charlies Classifications ;)

[Kevincal]

This aint NASCAR.
Do they race in NASCAR at all if it's raining? Not sure about it.
And they need those blowers to dry the track exactly because they are afraid of driving on a wet track.

Oh boy, let's jump to conclusions why don't we... *rolls eyes* First of all... I HATE NASCAR. It's boring as hell. That said, I don't see the downside of having said "blowers" available at F1 races for obvious reasons. I absolutely hate safety car, follow the leaders starts in F1. Everyone knows that for nearly every F1 race, the most exciting part of the race is the start FROM THE GRID!!! The blowers would be perfect for getting rid of extremely wet areas of the track and clearing debris. It's a win win situation.

Also the problem with the idea that letting the cars run a few laps behing the SC to let the wet tires clear some water from the track. All that happens is they clear some water from the racing line, and in return a lot of that water is put onto other areas of the track, making those areas even wetter than before! With a team of huge blowers going around the track, they could get excess water completely off the track... I'm not saying I would want them to completely dry the track, I'm saying just get rid of the excess pooling water that makes conditions dangerous...

[truefan72]

Is someone else using your login? I agree 100%.

Where has the rude person gone that normally posts under this name, bad mouthing Brits....?

was warned by the mods

[truefan72]

Of course, were this to happen in an American series they'd probably have postponed the race until Monday. :p

probably

I can see why nascar can't run in the wets or why IRL cant rum ovals in the wets, but other than that they would rather have a full crowd watching on a sunny day than a half empty grandstands in the wet. That's their philosophy and its driven by commercial motives.

[schmenke]

.... That's their philosophy and its driven by commercial motives.

...And F1 isn't? ;)

[jens]

The European Grand Prix last year was red flagged after four laps.

Yes, but as you mentioned, it was red-flagged after several laps, not after the start. And positions for the restart were determined by race rankings after 3rd lap, not by grid positions.

[wmcot]

Do they race in NASCAR at all if it's raining? .

Nope. They lose all traction at around 60 mph (100kph) or less if there is the slightest hint of a rain shower...boring! I much prefer ALMS who DO race in the rain and have similar safety care rule to F1.

[Valve Bounce]

I for one am glad that they started the race under Safety Car procedures. I was watching Midsummer Murders and realised the race was on well after the start time. Had there been a normal start, there would have been one helluva big prang just after the start and I would have missed it. :bigcry:

[wmcot]

I for one am glad that they started the race under Safety Car procedures. I was watching Midsummer Murders and realised the race was on well after the start time. Had there been a normal start, there would have been one helluva big prang just after the start and I would have missed it. :bigcry:

Nah, they would have re-played it 50 times from different angles - so starting behind the safety car takes away from the first lap crashes and makes more room for more commercial adverts which leads to more money for Bernie! I smell a conspiracy here! :)

[Valve Bounce]

Nah, they would have re-played it 50 times from different angles - so starting behind the safety car takes away from the first lap crashes and makes more room for more commercial adverts which leads to more money for Bernie! I smell a conspiracy here! :)

I never thought of that :( I would have been able to watch the end of Midsummer Murders. :(