Dirty racing from Hamilton

[ioan]

In several ways. His style has been likened to that of Schumacher, as has his tactical mind.

As I said, time will tell.

The style? Maybe, i we stretch it a bit.
The tactical mind? Don't make me laugh.

[Tonieke]

Take care, according to Pino that is a personal attack!

perfect sample of what I just said...

[wedge]

I would say: Undeniably a bit dirty racing from Lewis and i can understund if Glock is furious with him..

http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr129/Jas123F1/F1/LewisGlock2.jpg

Did it cause an accident? Did it warrant a drive-through penalty? Did Glock shake his fists in the air as soon as Lewis passed him? Has he complained in the media yet?

What to know why the answer is no?

It's because Glock has big balls and took it like man. Glock earnt my respect after that. He's no pussy, you're gonna have to put Glock on the grass to make sure he backs off.

[truefan72]

Amazing race, there is only one way to solve out friction between both of them, give both of them the same red car,

ha ha great video

and massa had really nothing to say there. I love how Alonso was like "I'm racing for the championship, what are you doing" lol

that was some good racing

[Viktory]

Did it cause an accident? Did it warrant a drive-through penalty? Did Glock shake his fists in the air as soon as Lewis passed him? Has he complained in the media yet?

What to know why the answer is no?

It's because Glock has big balls and took it like man. Glock earnt my respect after that. He's no pussy, you're gonna have to put Glock on the grass to make sure he backs off.

think again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr84NX_mUVg
and he has kinda complained in the media.
Maybe Hamilton did something wrong, or is that impossible for this "breath-of-fresh-air, no nonsense racer"?

I don't think he deserves a penalty, just a warning, liken it to a yellow card in football.

[ioan]

Did it cause an accident? Did it warrant a drive-through penalty? Did Glock shake his fists in the air as soon as Lewis passed him? Has he complained in the media yet?

What to know why the answer is no?

It's because Glock has big balls and took it like man. Glock earnt my respect after that. He's no pussy, you're gonna have to put Glock on the grass to make sure he backs off.

You've got it wrong there, cause Glock complained about it in the media! :rolleyes:

Oh and all the rest of your post was as right as the part about Glock not complaining! :rotflmao:

[wedge]

think again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr84NX_mUVg

Bah!

That was nothing!

Certainly he isn't happy but not the angry fist shaking/arms in the air that we're used to seeing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feslxpzokuk


You've got it wrong there, cause Glock complained about it in the media! :rolleyes:

Link?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Is F1 a gladiatorial sport? Or a load jessies having a Sunday drive?

We complain when there is no overtaking, we complain when there is overtaking.

Motor Racing is a dangerous sport, all the drivers know that.

[Jag_Warrior]

again..why should Lewis give Timo space and in Spa Kimi shouldn't have donne so for Lewis...Both defending there position not ? Can anyone explain the difference between both cases ?

Other than one occurring in a turn and the other on a straight, I can't see a difference in racing etiquette: if you put your car where the leading driver doesn't want it, you take the chance of being shoved off the track.

If one was not bothered by the Kimi/Lewis Spa incident, I can't see that one would be bothered by the Lewis/Timo Monza incident.

But some people use a funny sort of logic around here, so I don't know... :confused:

[Viktory]

Link?

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080915141257.shtml

[CNR]

Martin Brundle pointed out that Lewis wouldn't have expected Timo to have been there and went on to say that Lewis wasn't looking in his mirror (which I assume would have been apparent to Martin Brundle if he was), so that supports his original statement.





what would he say
how would it go down with itv viewers if he was to say anything negative about lewis.

[wedge]

"The next time I am with him (on track), I will behave with him in exactly the same way,"

That's what I like to read! Fighting talk and growing bigger balls!!!!

[wedge]

what would he say
how would it go down with itv viewers if he was to say anything negative about lewis.

He has. He half jokingly/ironically said Lewis was driving like he had no mirrors and I remember last year's Bahrain GP he criticised Lewis for weaving across the frontstraight at the start.

[PolePosition_1]

I would say: Undeniably a bit dirty racing from Lewis and i can understund if Glock is furious with him..

http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr129/Jas123F1/F1/LewisGlock2.jpg

To be fair, if people think thats dirty racing, thats fair enough. Though I disagree, I can see why many would call it dirty racing.

But what I don't understand is how people can say Schumacher wasn't a dirty driver and Lewis is.

[PolePosition_1]

again..why should Lewis give Timo space and in Spa Kimi shouldn't have donne so for Lewis...Both defending there position not ? Can anyone explain the difference between both cases ?

Thats an excellent point actually, I never even looked at it from that perspective before.

But as you say, I don't honestly believe that Hamilton knew Glock was on the outside, he did have a very good run out of the corner, and I don't think Hamilton even realised.

Can anyone post a link with Hamilton's versions of events?

PS: Ioan, I asked you earlier for all these dangerous incidents Hamilton has had in last 2 seasons, you said he had more incidents in a race than Schumacher has in a season. Can you tell me what incidents you were refering to? Or was that a claim to make your opinion more reasonable?

[jas123f1]

To be fair, if people think thats dirty racing, thats fair enough. Though I disagree, I can see why many would call it dirty racing.

But what I don't understand is how people can say Schumacher wasn't a dirty driver and Lewis is.

You see - dirty racing is dirty racing and that's it and F1 is not any exception in motorsport … It doesn't matter who, when or were.. and when some one are pushing his competitors out from track in 250 km/h it’s dirty racing - every time .. I really hope they speak with Lewis before he will cause an accident... it doesn't help to speak about Senna or Schumi ..

[PolePosition_1]

You see - dirty racing is dirty racing and that's it and F1 is not any exception in motorsport … It doesn't matter who, when or were.. and when some one are pushing his competitors out from track in 250 km/h it’s dirty racing - every time .. I really hope they speak with Lewis before he will cause an accident... it doesn't help to speak about Senna or Schumi ..

Thats the thing. Dirty racing is not definately dirty racing. Its totally subjective, hence the amount of disagreement here.

Personally, I don't believe Hamilton saw Glock, so I can't call it dirty. If he admits to seeing him, then I would say it was a dirty move. Much in the same way Schumacher forced Alonso onto the grass at Silverstone few years back on the straight into Stowe.

But the Webber incident for example, Webber had room for his car, I'm sure Hamilton didn't deliberately want to touch wheels with Webber, it was just aggressive racing.

Dirty racing for me would be deliberately attempting to put your competitor out of the race to win a title. Or sticking car in middle of track so no one can beat you to pole position.

And in this instance, it does help to talk about Schumacher. Because Schumacher fans are complaining about Hamiltons move on Glock when Schumacher did EXACTLY the same on Alonso. How can the same incident be ok for one driver and not for another? Surely its hypocritical, and would therefore show their judgements are totally biased.

[Tonieke]

You see - dirty racing is dirty racing and that's it and F1 is not any exception in motorsport … It doesn't matter who, when or were.. and when some one are pushing his competitors out from track in 250 km/h it’s dirty racing - every time .. I really hope they speak with Lewis before he will cause an accident... it doesn't help to speak about Senna or Schumi ..

ya ok..but our point is...when Lewis does a move certain people jump on it and make it look as was it the badest thing ever happened on this planet..so to speak..But when you ask the same people what they think of similar situations happening other drivers involved...its ok...

so jas123f1 if you say this action of Lewis was dirty you also admit what Kimi did in Spa..when he hit Lewis on the right rear tire goin into La Source was dirty to ?

[MrJan]

You see - dirty racing is dirty racing and that's it and F1 is not any exception in motorsport

Obviously not or we'd all agree :D

[ioan]

Is F1 a gladiatorial sport? Or a load jessies having a Sunday drive?

Yeah, maybe there should be only one of them living at the end of each race?! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

To be fair, if people think thats dirty racing, thats fair enough. Though I disagree, I can see why many would call it dirty racing.

But what I don't understand is how people can say Schumacher wasn't a dirty driver and Lewis is.

Who said that MS didn't have some dangerous moves?

However, IMO these are produced very often by a certain Hamilton.

Plus two wrongs don't make a right! :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

Who said that MS didn't have some dangerous moves?

However, IMO these are produced very often by a certain Hamilton.

Plus two wrongs don't make a right! :rolleyes:

No one is. What I find amusing is that Schumacher fans are laying to Hamilton for doing exactly what Schumacher use to do.

Do you think Hamilton is a dirty driver? Do you think Schumacher was a dirty driver?

And what incidents are you refering to when you think Hamilton is dangerous? You said previously "He's had more dangerous moves in one race than MS in one full season.".

I'm just interested into what incidents you are refering to.

[Hawkmoon]

No one is. What I find amusing is that Schumacher fans are laying to Hamilton for doing exactly what Schumacher use to do.

Do you think Hamilton is a dirty driver? Do you think Schumacher was a dirty driver?

And what incidents are you refering to when you think Hamilton is dangerous? You said previously "He's had more dangerous moves in one race than MS in one full season.".

I'm just interested into what incidents you are refering to.

The flip side is true as well. The anti-Schumi brigade who would rip into the German are now excusing Hamilton for similar moves. It's going both ways.

[Daniel]

The flip side is true as well. The anti-Schumi brigade who would rip into the German are now excusing Hamilton for similar moves. It's going both ways.
You could condense it even further and just say "two wrongs don't make a right"

[PolePosition_1]

The flip side is true as well. The anti-Schumi brigade who would rip into the German are now excusing Hamilton for similar moves. It's going both ways.

I acknowledge that. But I wasn't a member of this forum when Schumacher was around. So I didn't see it.

All I'm going on is what is happening right now. And all I see is Schumacher fans laying into Hamilton for doing same as their idol did.

Although from my perspective, I respect Hamilton for his talent and sporting attitude, and respected Schumacher for his talent but not for his sporting attitude. And I don't see myself as a hypocrite.

If I disliked Schumacher for being arrogant, but liked Hamilton for being arrogant, thats fair enough, I'd be a hypocrite. But I aint seen anything too unsporting from Hamilton.

[Daniel]

I acknowledge that. But I wasn't a member of this forum when Schumacher was around. So I didn't see it.

So how do you know that the Schumacher fans were saying Schumachers moves were OK back in the day? :laugh:

[Tonieke]

The flip side is true as well. The anti-Schumi brigade who would rip into the German are now excusing Hamilton for similar moves. It's going both ways.

I never got it someone can be ANTI a driver...in any sport actualy...U like one driver more than another one ok...so U support the drivers you like most...But show respect to all !

I for one....am only interested in what the drivers I like do...and mainly on the track....while there's people out there that are more interested in what the drivers they don't like do and than make fun of them...

[Daniel]

I never got it someone can be ANTI a driver...in any sport actualy...U like one driver more than another one ok...so U support the drivers you like most...But show respect to all !

I for one....am only interested in what the drivers I like do...and mainly on the track....while there's people out there that are more interested in what the drivers they don't like do and than make fun of them...

Why should people respect all drivers? Simply because you say so? :confused:

[Tonieke]

Why should people respect all drivers? Simply because you say so? :confused:

I show respect for every driver..because of what they do...Knowing I Not have the talent to do the same !
clear now ???

[ioan]

If I disliked Schumacher for being arrogant, but liked Hamilton for being arrogant, thats fair enough, I'd be a hypocrite. But I aint seen anything too unsporting from Hamilton.

Well, you can't dislike MS for being arrogant, because he isn't arrogant, unlike Lewy! :p :

[ioan]

I show respect for every driver..because of what they do...Knowing I Not have the talent to do the same !
clear now ???

Now, now, don't get so worked up, over some well deserved Lewy criticism. :cool:

[Tonieke]

Now, now, don't get so worked up, over some well deserved Lewy criticism. :cool:

criticism is equal to name calling in your eyes ?

[harsha]

Desperate,dirty driving by Hamilton.....not something i'd like to see

[MrJan]

So how do you know that the Schumacher fans were saying Schumachers moves were OK back in the day? :laugh:

Because they're still harping on about it :D :p :

[ShiftingGears]

My driver is better than yours!

[Knock-on]

This is going to get into the usual pi$$ing contest.

Schumacher did some dodgy things. Punting off Villeneuve, Hill, parking during qualifying, forcing people off track when side by side down a straight etc.

I haven’t seen Lewis doing these things.

Where they do compare is that they are both supremely talented and hard racers. I never had anything against Schumy being hard but fair. I think only a wimp would and have no time for that.

Many of you will know that I was a MS fan in the early days when he used to drive like Lewis but lost respect for him when he started punting people off and blatantly cheating.

I haven’t seen Lewis being dirty but will criticize him if he does. If he starts cheating ala Schumacher then I will be just as critical.

[Daniel]

I show respect for every driver..because of what they do...Knowing I Not have the talent to do the same !
clear now ???

Well I don't. If I don't like the way a driver acts out of the car or on the race track I won't respect them. It's my choice whether I want to respect a driver or not.

[PolePosition_1]

So how do you know that the Schumacher fans were saying Schumachers moves were OK back in the day? :laugh:

Well, without wishing to generalising too much. Most people tend to support a driver because they like him. I can't see someone supporting a driver who they don't like his on track performance.

Plus from other message boards over the past, Schumacher fans tended to approve of his style.

[PolePosition_1]

Well, you can't dislike MS for being arrogant, because he isn't arrogant, unlike Lewy! :p :

Lol ok :) .

Though arrogant is that bad in F1, part of me thinks you got to be arrogant to win in F1.

[Tonieke]

Well I don't. If I don't like the way a driver acts out of the car or on the race track I won't respect them. It's my choice whether I want to respect a driver or not.

that's fine with me..i LIKE one driver more than the other..but I RESPECT them all !

[Knock-on]

Well I don't. If I don't like the way a driver acts out of the car or on the race track I won't respect them. It's my choice whether I want to respect a driver or not.


But, surely you must recognise the driving excellence of all the drivers.

Just because you consider someone to be arrogant or acting with unnessary bravado shouldn't take away from what we follow this sport for; the racing?

JV was a bit of a twunt sometimes but when on his game, hugely entertaining. Same with Monty, Senna, Eddie etc.

But surely their ability on track is what it's all about? Not how they come across in an interview for Hello magazine?

[Daniel]

Lol ok :) .

Though arrogant is that bad in F1, part of me thinks you got to be arrogant to win in F1.
Being arrogant makes you a better driver?

[wedge]

This is going to get into the usual pi$$ing contest.

Schumacher did some dodgy things. Punting off Villeneuve, Hill, parking during qualifying, forcing people off track when side by side down a straight etc.

I haven’t seen Lewis doing these things.

Where they do compare is that they are both supremely talented and hard racers. I never had anything against Schumy being hard but fair. I think only a wimp would and have no time for that.

Many of you will know that I was a MS fan in the early days when he used to drive like Lewis but lost respect for him when he started punting people off and blatantly cheating.

I haven’t seen Lewis being dirty but will criticize him if he does. If he starts cheating ala Schumacher then I will be just as critical.

So you cry foul when Schumi forces Mika onto the grass and you see nothing wrong what Lewis did to Glock?!

If this was either LH or MS instead of Kimi, I whether they'll be called dangerous/dirty drivers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JfzfZaxD9I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNAB6xIbx8&feature=related

[Daniel]

But, surely you must recognise the driving excellence of all the drivers.

Just because you consider someone to be arrogant or acting with unnessary bravado shouldn't take away from what we follow this sport for; the racing?

JV was a bit of a twunt sometimes but when on his game, hugely entertaining. Same with Monty, Senna, Eddie etc.

But surely their ability on track is what it's all about? Not how they come across in an interview for Hello magazine?
I do recognise driving skills :)

I've never doubted Lewis' skill as a driver :) Just the way he makes his judgements and the way he acts outside of the car.

[PolePosition_1]

Being arrogant makes you a better driver?

No, but believing that you are the best can make you a better driver. That no one can beat you. Its an arrogant thought, but at same time you've got to believe that to win, if you enter with a mindframe of "i'm probably the 6th best driver on the grid" - straight off you giving yourself a pyschological disadvantage.

In that respect arrogance (although not a desirable charactistic in general) can be of benefit in F1.

[Tonieke]

Being arrogant makes you a better driver?

well knowing how you guys think bout Lewis and seeing how he performs..i would say yes..;-)

[PolePosition_1]

So you cry foul when Schumi forces Mika onto the grass and you see nothing wrong what Lewis did to Glock?!

If this was either LH or MS instead of Kimi, I whether they'll be called dangerous/dirty drivers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JfzfZaxD9I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNAB6xIbx8&feature=related

Well, a lot of it depends on whether Hamilton actually knew Glock was there.

Past racing driver Martin Brundle seems to think no, has anyone a source which says Lewis saw Glock and deliberately forced him wide or he just didn't know he was there?

[ioan]

Schumacher did some dodgy things. Punting off Villeneuve, Hill, parking during qualifying, forcing people off track when side by side down a straight etc.

I haven’t seen Lewis doing these things.

Get a good pair of spectacles, you sure need them.

[Daniel]

No, but believing that you are the best can make you a better driver. That no one can beat you. Its an arrogant thought, but at same time you've got to believe that to win, if you enter with a mindframe of "i'm probably the 6th best driver on the grid" - straight off you giving yourself a pyschological disadvantage.

In that respect arrogance (although not a desirable charactistic in general) can be of benefit in F1.

That's called self belief. Arrogance is just believing in yourself and being a knob about it.

[ioan]

If this was either LH or MS instead of Kimi, I whether they'll be called dangerous/dirty drivers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JfzfZaxD9I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNAB6xIbx8&feature=related

Felipe questioned Kimi's move after the race. At least Kimi didn't push Felipe out on the gras like Lewy did with Glock, but it was darn close too.

[Knock-on]

So you cry foul when Schumi forces Mika onto the grass and you see nothing wrong what Lewis did to Glock?!

If this was either LH or MS instead of Kimi, I whether they'll be called dangerous/dirty drivers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JfzfZaxD9I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNAB6xIbx8&feature=related

Well, I thought Lewis had just overtaken him and was slotting back. He wasn't alongside and forcing him onto the grass to make the overtake but was past him and resuming the racing line.

However, he wasn't 100% past but more than enough to move back on line. You will never see me moaning about driving like this the same as when Kimi closed the door when he KNEW Lewis was there at Spa. However, although that move was against the rules, I still said Kimi was entitled to and hadn't done anything wrong in my eyes.

With the clip you posted, yes, Kimi did keep his place by going off but if we start getting all anal about it, we will have very bust pit lanes. You will find that the only thing I moaned about it was that Lewis was penalised when he shouldn't have been yet Ferrari were not even though neither deserved a penalty.

[Knock-on]

I do recognise driving skills :)

I've never doubted Lewis' skill as a driver :) Just the way he makes his judgements and the way he acts outside of the car.

That's a fundemental difference between us.

I think Schumy is one of the most gifted drivers that ever sat in a car but ended up losing respect because of his antics ontrack.

However, offtrack, he is a wonderful bloke that does a lot for charity and seems a genuinly nice person.

However, what happens ontrack concerns me.

[PolePosition_1]

Felipe questioned Kimi's move after the race. At least Kimi didn't push Felipe out on the gras like Lewy did with Glock, but it was darn close too.


Ioan, what do you make of Schumacher forcing Alonso onto the grass at Silverstone in a straight line towards Stowe?

[PolePosition_1]

That's called self belief. Arrogance is just believing in yourself and being a knob about it.


Yes, some drivers are just very confident, but arrogance is an exaggerated form of confidence. Not in line with reality. Don't get me wrong, its not a good quality to have, as you say arrogance does make people a bit of a knob at times.

But that unrealistic belief that your the best, its good for F1 drivers to have. I'd have to say I think Lewis is pretty arrogant, one of the main reasons why I dislike him. But it works. He is a huge success.

[Tonieke]

Felipe questioned Kimi's move after the race. At least Kimi didn't push Felipe out on the gras like Lewy did with Glock, but it was darn close too.


and why ? only because Felipe backed of !

[MrJan]

Get a good pair of spectacles, you sure need them.

I agree that Knockie is being a bit one sided here but you can't deny that the things that you are complaining about in regards to Lewis are the same sorts of things that you love Schumi for and I would argue that you too need to get some spectacles.

I think that both drivers are fantastic and very similar in their no-holds barred approach so I find it confusing that people can like Schumacher's driving but not Lewis', or vice versa. I prefer Hamilton more than Schumacher, partly because he is British, but I can only appreciate just how good a driver Michael was and I think that Lewis has the potential to match him (note the use of the word 'potential', I'm not saying he will).

I disagree that the Glock move was in any way dirty, I just don't think that Lewis expected him to be as far alongside but we all know that racers are supposed to squeeze other drivers (wasn't Hamilton shunned for not doing it at Hungary?). Glock could easily have lifted and ceeded the place but chose not to.

The Webber incident was stupid and put LHs own race at risk, we all know that the suspension on an F1 car can be snap when a fly lands on it, but drivers do stupid things, see Kimi at Nurburgring with his flat tyre, Schumacher at Jerez, DC at almost everywhere etc. etc :p :

[Daniel]

That's a fundemental difference between us.

I think Schumy is one of the most gifted drivers that ever sat in a car but ended up losing respect because of his antics ontrack.

However, offtrack, he is a wonderful bloke that does a lot for charity and seems a genuinly nice person.

However, what happens ontrack concerns me.
I'm actually saying the same thing :)

The decisions Lewis makes that I have a problem with are the ones he makes on track. They're his antics you could say. The difference between him and Michael is the amount of time. In time I think Lewis will turn out to be just as disliked as Michael was for his antics. I am very concerned that someone is going to get hurt if Lewis continues like this. I don't think Lewis has made a lot of friends in recent times and I get the feeling we'll see him punted off a few times in some slightly suspect incidents before he starts treating other drivers with the respect they deserve.

[Knock-on]

If we go to the last controversy then we have the following. Some great and also objective articles.

Lewis has made a few mistakes such as crashing into Kimi’s Ferrari but you couldn’t say they were malicious.

Similarly with Glock, it was not a blatant punt to take out a competitor.

I’m sorry but I am not being one sided here. When has Hamilton been penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3741057503206935720

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/5024532.stm

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/98/ger/schum.html

http://www.atomicsportsmedia.com/articles/464/1/The-Two-Faces-of-Michael-Schumacher.html

[wedge]

Well, I thought Lewis had just overtaken him and was slotting back. He wasn't alongside and forcing him onto the grass to make the overtake but was past him and resuming the racing line.

However, he wasn't 100% past but more than enough to move back on line.

By that definition Schumi did nothing wrong at Spa 2000. He blocked and then went back onto the racing line for Les Combes!

[ioan]

Ioan, what do you make of Schumacher forcing Alonso onto the grass at Silverstone in a straight line towards Stowe?

Even if Alonso wasn't Schumacher's team mate, and the track wasn't wet either it was still a dangerous move.

[wedge]

I’m sorry but I am not being one sided here. When has Hamilton been penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct?

At Spa!

Cutting across the chicane and not giving back the position 'fairly'.

The drivers don't just push the limits of the car. They have to push to the limits of what is or isn't acceptable on the track, just like the designers eke out every advantage they can find in the technical regulations.

[PolePosition_1]

Even if Alonso wasn't Schumacher's team mate, and the track wasn't wet either it was still a dangerous move.

Was it a dirty move?

Do you see Hamiltons move on Glock as dangerous / dirty or both?

[wedge]

Well, a lot of it depends on whether Hamilton actually knew Glock was there.

Past racing driver Martin Brundle seems to think no, has anyone a source which says Lewis saw Glock and deliberately forced him wide or he just didn't know he was there?

Seems like people are prepared to give Lewis the benefit of doubt. If it was Schumi people will cry arrogance for not using his mirrors/move his head across to see Glock.

[Knock-on]

At Spa!

Cutting across the chicane and not giving back the position 'fairly'.

The drivers don't just push the limits of the car. They have to push to the limits of what is or isn't acceptable on the track, just like the designers eke out every advantage they can find in the technical regulations.

:laugh:

Very unsportsmanlike :laugh:

Gets pushed off, gives the place back and then takes him again.

Keep trying :D

[ioan]

I agree that Knockie is being a bit one sided here but you can't deny that the things that you are complaining about in regards to Lewis are the same sorts of things that you love Schumi for and I would argue that you too need to get some spectacles.

I didn't like MS for running into JV's side, nor for being aggressive with HHF or his own brother.

I like his work ethics and his dedication for Ferrari.

[ioan]

Was it a dirty move?

Do you see Hamiltons move on Glock as dangerous / dirty or both?

Dangerous, this is the word I used since the start of this debate. :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

Dangerous, this is the word I used since the start of this debate. :rolleyes:


Ok. So my understanding is that you do not see Hamilton as a dirty racer. You see him as fair. And that you see Schumacher and Hamilton as both dangerous racers?

Apologies for accusing you of calling him dirty.

Its just when your view on it and how he bullies the others on the track with very dangerous moves, and how he pushed another driver on wet grass at 300km/h deliberately, well by my standards that is dirty driving. But if you don't think thats dirty thats fair enough :)

[wedge]

:laugh:

Very unsportsmanlike :laugh:

Gets pushed off, gives the place back and then takes him again.

Keep trying :D

To the stewards eyes it was! At the time of writing he's guilty!

[PolePosition_1]

Seems like people are prepared to give Lewis the benefit of doubt. If it was Schumi people will cry arrogance for not using his mirrors/move his head across to see Glock.

Well, personally I wouldn't. Others may your right. But in the wet, not expecting a car there and the other circumstances. I'm going to believe he didn't realise he was there. I haven't heard any sources stating Hamilton did know he was there.

[Daniel]

To the stewards eyes it was! At the time of writing he's guilty!
What would the stewards know? We armchair fans know more than them :)

[wedge]

Well, personally I wouldn't. Others may your right. But in the wet, not expecting a car there and the other circumstances. I'm going to believe he didn't realise he was there. I haven't heard any sources stating Hamilton did know he was there.

They were in and out of the chicane wheel to wheel so Lewis knew where Glock and blatantly knew what he was doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmOZH8wY7FU

[Tonieke]

They were in and out of the chicane wheel to wheel so Lewis knew where Glock and blatantly knew what he was doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmOZH8wY7FU

ya just like Kimi and Lewis in Spa..wheel to wheel goin into the chicane..Kimi goin from the inside to the outside..defending his position...leaving Lewis no room at all...

[PolePosition_1]

They were in and out of the chicane wheel to wheel so Lewis knew where Glock and blatantly knew what he was doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmOZH8wY7FU

Well, I happen to disagree, what your stating is an opinion. Not once in the race did any other driver manage to get better exit speed than his opponent after being overtaking into the chicane. The driver overtaking was always on the line, as was Hamilton hence it was safe to presume he'd have gotten past Glock fully.

In those conditions, with poor visibilty, I'm willing to give Hamilton the benefit of the doubt. That on top of Brundles opinion, who comes across unbiased, and a former GP driver, I'm going to believe he didn't see him less Hamilton says he did see him.

[wedge]

Well, I happen to disagree, what your stating is an opinion. Not once in the race did any other driver manage to get better exit speed than his opponent after being overtaking into the chicane. The driver overtaking was always on the line, as was Hamilton hence it was safe to presume he'd have gotten past Glock fully.

In those conditions, with poor visibilty, I'm willing to give Hamilton the benefit of the doubt. That on top of Brundles opinion, who comes across unbiased, and a former GP driver, I'm going to believe he didn't see him less Hamilton says he did see him.

Can't remember who Rosberg was racing against but he was in the same position as Glock and got better traction out of the chicane.

If Lewis didn't see Glock then why did he give him room at the second part of the chicane otherwise they would never had raced side by side. And by that proximity wouldn't you think Lewis would be aware of the Toyota? Perhaps if he turned his head a bit to the left?

[Knock-on]

Loved watching the Alonso overtake again. Superb.

Did him, moved to cover his line once and then moved back to take the corner. Text book!!!

With Timo, I think he would have been a bit surprised that Timo was still on his rear wheel. No matter, he had the racing line so was entitled to take the corner entry. Timo was just on his rear and not anywhere alongside.

Fair in my book.

[Knock-on]

Can't remember who Rosberg was racing against but he was in the same position as Glock and got better traction out of the chicane.

If Lewis didn't see Glock then why did he give him room at the second part of the chicane otherwise they would never had raced side by side. And by that proximity wouldn't you think Lewis would be aware of the Toyota? Perhaps if he turned his head a bit to the left?

What a utopian world :laugh:

For a start, HANS prohibits more than a inch or 2 of movement. Certainly not enough to see over his rear wheel and his Mirrors would have been useless in that spray.

Lastly, with a bend coming up, he might have been thinking about keeping it on the Island.

[ioan]

Can't remember who Rosberg was racing against but he was in the same position as Glock and got better traction out of the chicane.

Exactly, I remember it too.
I admire your dedication in fighting the wind mills for a fairer racing! :)
You know ofcourse that it's impossible to make the wind mills reason! ;)

[wedge]

Ioan, we have something we agree! :D

Damn those hypocrites!

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514848&postcount=31

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514823&postcount=25

I love wheel to wheel racing. For me, the best overtaking manoeuvres is when you go side by side and milimetres from your opponent.

[MrJan]

Now I've watched the video I retract that the Webber incident was Lewis' fault (prepares for abuse :D ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eot15t4dQM0

About 15 seconds in Mark turns in to the corner when there is clearly a McLaren there. Hamilton didn't leave much space but it's not lawn bowls and everything was within the rules.

[ioan]

Ioan, we have something we agree! :D

Damn those hypocrites!

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514848&postcount=31

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514823&postcount=25

I love wheel to wheel racing. For me, the best overtaking manoeuvres is when you go side by side and milimetres from your opponent.

;)

[aryan]

But I wasn't a member of this forum when Schumacher was around.


oh man! you missed the good ol' days. When we had MS, JV and JPM here, you could witness some proper mudfest on a daily basis :D

These days.... these kids... ;)

[Knock-on]

Now I've watched the video I retract that the Webber incident was Lewis' fault (prepares for abuse :D ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eot15t4dQM0

About 15 seconds in Mark turns in to the corner when there is clearly a McLaren there. Hamilton didn't leave much space but it's not lawn bowls and everything was within the rules.


I love the idea that this was Lewis's fault. How dare he try to go around the corner when someone else wants that bit of Tarmac :laugh:

[Tonieke]

Now I've watched the video I retract that the Webber incident was Lewis' fault (prepares for abuse :D ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eot15t4dQM0

About 15 seconds in Mark turns in to the corner when there is clearly a McLaren there. Hamilton didn't leave much space but it's not lawn bowls and everything was within the rules.

well ya..it's Webber causing the contact....don't ya think they would have given Lewis a penalty if he had been driving really this dangerous all race long..like some make it look..or try to...and knowing so far this season each time he not followed the rules by the letter he got one !

[PolePosition_1]

Can't remember who Rosberg was racing against but he was in the same position as Glock and got better traction out of the chicane.

If Lewis didn't see Glock then why did he give him room at the second part of the chicane otherwise they would never had raced side by side. And by that proximity wouldn't you think Lewis would be aware of the Toyota? Perhaps if he turned his head a bit to the left?

Well I don't remember seeing the Rosberg situation, if you can post a video link or anything please do.

The second part of the chicane, it would be reasonable to expect the car to still be alongside you. However after that, where he was pushed wide, due to the curve, in normal circumstances, the car on inside would have full track position.

Well, I can think of several instances where drivers don't realise where the car next to them is before a collision despite their closeness, so I wouldn't say so no. And if he turned his head to left, again I doub't he'd have seen him unless he can do at least a 140 degree turn due to Glock being behind.

Maybe he was in his blind spot who knows? Maybe all he could see was spray in his mirrors. All I'm stating is that I highly doubt it was deliberate.

And I'm not really willing to class a driver as a dirty racing on assumptions, I prefer to make my opinions on facts.

[PolePosition_1]

Exactly, I remember it too.
I admire your dedication in fighting the wind mills for a fairer racing! :)
You know ofcourse that it's impossible to make the wind mills reason! ;)

Well I'm suprised at your signature, considering the man in your eyes is not a fair racer.

[PolePosition_1]

Ioan, we have something we agree! :D

Damn those hypocrites!

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514848&postcount=31

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514823&postcount=25

I love wheel to wheel racing. For me, the best overtaking manoeuvres is when you go side by side and milimetres from your opponent.


Lol you've got a lot of time on your hands.

But I don't see why this makes me a hypocrite. Surely you can see a difference between a deliberate and undeliberate accident?

[wedge]

Lol you've got a lot of time on your hands.

But I don't see why this makes me a hypocrite. Surely you can see a difference between a deliberate and undeliberate accident?

Yes I can but I'm not blinded prejudice of certain drivers. If you can give the benefit of doubt over 'Saint' Lewis then I can't see the reason why you can't do the same over all drivers regardless if they have form or not. Not everything is black and white, you get grey areas most commonly called 'racing incidents'.

[PolePosition_1]

Yes I can but I'm not blinded prejudice of certain drivers. If you can give the benefit of doubt over 'Saint' Lewis then I can't see the reason why you can't do the same over all drivers regardless if they have form or not. Not everything is black and white, you get grey areas most commonly called 'racing incidents'.

I don't see how you can stereotype me into being prejudice. I'm an Alonso fan, and my favourite team is Williams.

I dislike Hamilton, and want Massa to win the drivers title this year. I think that lays pretty good foundations for me not being a Hamilton lover.

I'm just basing my opinions on the circumstances of the incident. I've never driven a Formula 1 car, but an educated former F1 driver has said its unlikely he would have known he was there. This on top of I've never seen Hamilton behave unsportingly, I'd have to say I'm going to give him benefit of the doubt.

With Schumacher, when he pushed Alonso onto the grass, he knew Alonso was there, he went off the racing line to defend his position. With Hamilton, he kept on the racing line, with poor visibility, I've not heard him say he saw him, so I'm going to give him benefit of the doubt.

I don't particularly see why I am wrong in doing this.

[ioan]

Well I'm suprised at your signature, considering the man in your eyes is not a fair racer.

It's none of my business how surprised you might be by anything you chose to surprise you. :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

It's none of my business how surprised you might be by anything you chose to surprise you. :rolleyes:

Lol, so you agree that your don't see Schumacher as a fair racer?

[Tonieke]

to those who find Lewis way of racing dangerous and dirty...Remember some of the duels of these 2...;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xwLC9Vlkk

[aryan]

to those who find Lewis way of racing dangerous and dirty...Remember some of the duels of these 2...;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xwLC9Vlkk


Wow! Great vid. And such a perfect reminder.

I remember how fans of each of these two ranted against the other set of fans.

And now... it's a new kid, in a new car... but the arguments are all the same.

Nothing has changed.

Which is why I love F1 :D

[Bradley]

to those who find Lewis way of racing dangerous and dirty...Remember some of the duels of these 2...;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xwLC9Vlkk

Yes, great video. As far as I remember, Montoya only raced in such an aggressive way in his duels against Schumacher. That's what I liked in him :) (sorry Ioan :) )

F1 today definitely needs pilots who give Hamilton a cookie of his own dough from time to time.

[Viktory]

to those who find Lewis way of racing dangerous and dirty...Remember some of the duels of these 2...;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xwLC9Vlkk

Great video!

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Great video!So you enjoyed that but you complain about similar in F1 today?

[Viktory]

So you enjoyed that but you complain about similar in F1 today?

The only thing I found that can be classed as "dirty" in that video was the bit where Schumi forced Montoya wide at Imola. Otherwise it was all fair but hard racing, they showed respect for each other and gave each other room, absolutely amazing.

Just as a note, I was amazed at Hamilton's pace and racing skill (apart from the noted situations of course). He was very quick and very impressive, amazing on the brakes, just those few incidents we are talking about were totally unnecessary in my opinion.

This on top of I've never seen Hamilton behave unsportingly, I'd have to say I'm going to give him benefit of the doubt.

Just out of interest, would you not consider his actions in Q3 at the Hungaroring 2007 to be unsporting?

Didn't he break a pre-arranged agreement that he would let Fernando be the one to have the last run in qualifying (or something like that)?

I didn't see anything unsporting at Monza, just ruthlessness. But sometimes the ruthlessness of a top driver does overstep the boundary of fair play...and Hungary 07 Q3 was very much in that category.

[PolePosition_1]

Just out of interest, would you not consider his actions in Q3 at the Hungaroring 2007 to be unsporting?

Didn't he break a pre-arranged agreement that he would let Fernando be the one to have the last run in qualifying (or something like that)?

I didn't see anything unsporting at Monza, just ruthlessness. But sometimes the ruthlessness of a top driver does overstep the boundary of fair play...and Hungary 07 Q3 was very much in that category.

It all depends on what you class as unsporting. For me the principles of sport lie in competition. Its a competition of who is the best. With regards to F1, it gets complicated because of the multiple dimensions of F1, drivers title, constructors etc.

So being unsporting is denying competition, going against the principles of sport.

With Hamilton, he said he went for it on the basis they both would have had enough time to gain an equal advantage. He didn't do it on basis it was hindering Alonso.

So for me it was not unsporting. It was ungentleman like, it was selfish, but it wasn't unsporting.

It all depends on what you class as unsporting. For me the principles of sport lie in competition. Its a competition of who is the best. With regards to F1, it gets complicated because of the multiple dimensions of F1, drivers title, constructors etc.

So being unsporting is denying competition, going against the principles of sport.

With Hamilton, he said he went for it on the basis they both would have had enough time to gain an equal advantage. He didn't do it on basis it was hindering Alonso.

So for me it was not unsporting. It was ungentleman like, it was selfish, but it wasn't unsporting.

I see.

So it's ok to be a twat, so long as it's not on the track?

[PolePosition_1]

I see.

So it's ok to be a twat, so long as it's not on the track?

I never said its ok to be a twat.

I just said what he did was not unsporting. What did he do to be a twat off track?

[Bagwan]

I never said its ok to be a twat.

I just said what he did was not unsporting. What did he do to be a twat off track?
Being as the agreement between Alonso and Hamilton was to ensure both drivers were treated equally , Lewis being ungentlemanly and selfish was rather unsporting .

Wouldn't you agree ?

[Tonieke]

Being as the agreement between Alonso and Hamilton was to ensure both drivers were treated equally , Lewis being ungentlemanly and selfish was rather unsporting .

Wouldn't you agree ?

those agreements are made within the team....and it's up to them to deal with it...

Unsporting to me means..deliberat actions breaking the rules on the track fe !

[Valve Bounce]

Incidents with Webber, Fisichella, in the first chicane, and Glock just after

He moves within the braking zone, pushes people off the circuit... I think the way he behaved today is a danger to the other drivers.

Absolutely agree. It's worst than cattle rustling; Let's lynch the bugger from a tall Oak Tree. :rolleyes:

[leopard]

Absolutely agree. It's worst than cattle rustling; Let's lynch the bugger from a tall Oak Tree. :rolleyes:
:laugh: ;)

[Daniel]

Absolutely agree. It's worst than cattle rustling; Let's lynch the bugger from a tall Oak Tree. :rolleyes:
Is it coz he iz black? :p

[leopard]

Look at the quoted post, did you wake up? :)

[PolePosition_1]

Being as the agreement between Alonso and Hamilton was to ensure both drivers were treated equally , Lewis being ungentlemanly and selfish was rather unsporting .

Wouldn't you agree ?


No. Because in this qualifying Alonso was due an advantage, due to the way McLaren plan their qualifying. Hamilton saw an opportunity so that they would both have an equal advantage, and took it.

As I say, ungentlemanly and selfish as it was not what was agreed, but it didn't effect Alonso or give him any disadvantage. So I wouldn't call it unsporting.

[ioan]

No. Because in this qualifying Alonso was due an advantage, due to the way McLaren plan their qualifying. Hamilton saw an opportunity so that they would both have an equal advantage, and took it.

And in the previous qualifying Hamilton was given an advantage! :rolleyes:


As I say, ungentlemanly and selfish as it was not what was agreed, but it didn't effect Alonso or give him any disadvantage. So I wouldn't call it unsporting.

Being a hypocrite doesn't help.

[wedge]

No. Because in this qualifying Alonso was due an advantage, due to the way McLaren plan their qualifying. Hamilton saw an opportunity so that they would both have an equal advantage, and took it.

As I say, ungentlemanly and selfish as it was not what was agreed, but it didn't effect Alonso or give him any disadvantage. So I wouldn't call it unsporting.


I remember the pre-race interview very well and he admitted that what he did in qualy was because he races to win so that blatantly shows there was an advantage to leading the pack in Q3 - clear track, run at pace with hindrance of traffic less likely so what equal opportunity are you referring to?

When DC criticised Schumi he said drivers should follow principles and gentlemanly conduct so surely being ungentlemanly and selfishness blurs the boundaries of whats considered unsporting?

[PolePosition_1]

And in the previous qualifying Hamilton was given an advantage! :rolleyes:



Being a hypocrite doesn't help.

I can see where are you coming from to be fair Ioan, and if thats your opinion I accept that.

In previous Qualifying Hamilton had an advantage, because Alonso stuck to the agreement.

In this qualifying, Hamilton was meant to let Alonso have an advantage, he choose not too. Because he didn't stick to the agreement, but he didn't do so by unfairly disadvantaging Alonso, so I don't see it as unsporting.

Thats my principles on what I see as sporting and unsporting, they're consistent. Though obviously my opinion of what is and is not sporting is subjective, so accept if you guys disagree :)

[PolePosition_1]

I remember the pre-race interview very well and he admitted that what he did in qualy was because he races to win so that blatantly shows there was an advantage to leading the pack in Q3 - clear track, run at pace with hindrance of traffic less likely so what equal opportunity are you referring to?

When DC criticised Schumi he said drivers should follow principles and gentlemanly conduct so surely being ungentlemanly and selfishness blurs the boundaries of whats considered unsporting?

No, he led the pack, and ran away, in order to get the same amount of laps as Alonso, therefore doing his lap on the same load as Alonso.

Last year McLaren took it in turns to do this. In Hungary, Alonso was meant to be the one with the extra lap. Hamilton went on a charge, in order so that he could get the extra lap, i.e same amount as Alonso.

So yeah, he broke the agreement. But it wasn't a rule, not even a contract, just a plan the team used, and he decided to do his own thing. And it didn't disadvantage Alonsos qualifying chances.

With regards to your question, it depends what you class as gentlemanly and sporting. For me, they're both different.

E.g. Melbourne 1998, DC let Mika have the win despite being miles out in front, he stuck to the gentlement agreement, and I respected him for that. But if he hadn't, I wouldn't say he is unsporting etc, just ungentleman like :)

[Bagwan]

[quote="PolePosition_1"]
In this qualifying, Hamilton was meant to let Alonso have an advantage, he choose not too. Because he didn't stick to the agreement, but he didn't do so by unfairly disadvantaging Alonso, so I don't see it as unsporting.

[quote]

It must be a very complicated world in which you live .

Because he didn't stick to the agreement , he disadvantaged Alonso , so how is that not unsporting by your definition ?

[PolePosition_1]

In this qualifying, Hamilton was meant to let Alonso have an advantage, he choose not too. Because he didn't stick to the agreement, but he didn't do so by unfairly disadvantaging Alonso, so I don't see it as unsporting.




It must be a very complicated world in which you live .

Because he didn't stick to the agreement , he disadvantaged Alonso , so how is that not unsporting by your definition ?

I'm lost. Alonso and Hamilton qualified on equal loads. Why is that disadvantaging Alonso?

[Knock-on]

It must be a very complicated world in which you live .

Because he didn't stick to the agreement , he disadvantaged Alonso , so how is that not unsporting by your definition ?

Who really cares.

If you want to think it was unsporting then that's fine.

There was so much crap flying around at the time at McLaren that something had to give. The drivers were under no illusion about each other and we had the Spygate drama going on.

No, it wasn't sporting but Alonso was not acting in a manner where he deserved sporting consideration IMHO. He was getting his nose put out of joint by a Rookie and was trying to throw a bit of weight around.

It happened, it was not the best time but more a case of handbags at 30 paces than anything to worry about.

How anyone can compare this "ungentlemanly" episode with forcing a competitor off track in an unsporting move is beyond me :confused:

[MrJan]

Because he didn't stick to the agreement , he disadvantaged Alonso , so how is that not unsporting by your definition ?


Because people have different opinions on what is sporting and what is not.


I can't believe that this arguement is still going on, did anyone know that the FIA gave Lewis a 25 second penalty at Spa for cutting the chicane? ;)

[wedge]

How anyone can compare this "ungentlemanly" episode with forcing a competitor off track in an unsporting move is beyond me :confused:

Being ungentlemanly can be a first step to being unsporting.

In 1989 Senna broke a gentlemans agreement at Imola - whoever led at the first corner at the start should go on to win the race but because the race was restarted after Berger's horrific crash Senna decided to make up his own rules.

A year later Senna decides to unsportingly take out Prost.

I'm not saying Hamilton will turn out like Senna and Schumacher my point is that if you're hard racer and enjoy winning then you're also pushing what is and isn't acceptable.

[Knock-on]

Being ungentlemanly can be a first step to being unsporting.

In 1989 Senna broke a gentlemans agreement at Imola - whoever led at the first corner at the start should go on to win the race but because the race was restarted after Berger's horrific crash Senna decided to make up his own rules.

A year later Senna decides to unsportingly take out Prost.

I'm not saying Hamilton will turn out like Senna and Schumacher my point is that if you're hard racer and enjoy winning then you're also pushing what is and isn't acceptable.

What are you saying Wedge?

I had a few joints when I was younger. Am I going to turn into Amy Winehouse ;)

[Tonieke]

Being ungentlemanly can be a first step to being unsporting.

In 1989 Senna broke a gentlemans agreement at Imola - whoever led at the first corner at the start should go on to win the race but because the race was restarted after Berger's horrific crash Senna decided to make up his own rules.

A year later Senna decides to unsportingly take out Prost.

I'm not saying Hamilton will turn out like Senna and Schumacher my point is that if you're hard racer and enjoy winning then you're also pushing what is and isn't acceptable.

it may all be true what you are saying about Senna....But in the end he's only remembered for being a great champion...Michael also did a bunch of actions that where so and so in his career....but people only remember him as a great champion....And so far lewis is on the way to become a great champion 2...

[PolePosition_1]

Being ungentlemanly can be a first step to being unsporting.

In 1989 Senna broke a gentlemans agreement at Imola - whoever led at the first corner at the start should go on to win the race but because the race was restarted after Berger's horrific crash Senna decided to make up his own rules.

A year later Senna decides to unsportingly take out Prost.

I'm not saying Hamilton will turn out like Senna and Schumacher my point is that if you're hard racer and enjoy winning then you're also pushing what is and isn't acceptable.

I agree with you, and I've already said I can see many similarities in Hamilton and Schumacher, (probably why I don't like Hamilton), but I'm not going to judge him as unsporting when he hasn't done anything unsporting.....yet :)

[PolePosition_1]

Michael also did a bunch of actions that where so and so in his career....but people only remember him as a great champion....

Speak for yourself :p

[wedge]

What are you saying Wedge?

I had a few joints when I was younger. Am I going to turn into Amy Winehouse ;)

Senna once told Mansell "now you know why I'm such a b*****d because I don't want anyone else to have the same (winning) feeling".

I'm saying Hamilton's future looks a bit worrying if you like to see things in black and white.

Likes winning, likes being centre of attention, felt he was wronged regarding team orders > breaks team orders

Alonso - likes winning, likes being centre of attention, felt team orders should've been implemented, felt wronged by Hamilton > decides to stall Hamilton's progress

Schumacher - bullied by Senna but has none of it, likes winning > win at all cost

Senna - felt wronged by Prost/FISA > takes out Prost

[Knock-on]

Why do some people here enjoy racing?

It seems that some here are more interested in picking apart "off the cuff" remarks to the media, how much he drinks at a party, whether a driver is gentlemanly in his conduct with his team mate and what bird he’s boning.

It doesn’t bother me if MS gets nicked for speeding, if Kimi downs half a bottle of Vodka and wears some knickers on his head or if a driver says he would have won a race if it rained. I couldn’t give a $h1t if they pick their nose, scratch their arse of dare to fart in public.

In fact, give me a driver with all those qualities and I will be more likely to like them especially if they can get a car round the track in a decent time (Sorry Mr Irvine, you fell at the last hurdle).

Perhaps I’m being a bit unreasonable but what sort of sissy sport do some people want to turn Motor Racing into? Why don't we just judge them on what happens in the Races?

[Tonieke]

Why do some people here enjoy racing?

It seems that some here are more interested in picking apart "off the cuff" remarks to the media, how much he drinks at a party, whether a driver is gentlemanly in his conduct with his team mate and what bird he’s boning.

It doesn’t bother me if MS gets nicked for speeding, if Kimi downs half a bottle of Vodka and wears some knickers on his head or if a driver says he would have won a race if it rained. I couldn’t give a $h1t if they pick their nose, scratch their arse of dare to fart in public.

In fact, give me a driver with all those qualities and I will be more likely to like them especially if they can get a car round the track in a decent time (Sorry Mr Irvine, you fell at the last hurdle).

Perhaps I’m being a bit unreasonable but what sort of sissy sport do some people want to turn Motor Racing into? Why don't we just judge them on what happens in the Races?

totaly agree with you there...

[Knock-on]

Senna once told Mansell "now you know why I'm such a b*****d because I don't want anyone else to have the same (winning) feeling".

I'm saying Hamilton's future looks a bit worrying if you like to see things in black and white.

Likes winning, likes being centre of attention, felt he was wronged regarding team orders > breaks team orders

Alonso - likes winning, likes being centre of attention, felt team orders should've been implemented, felt wronged by Hamilton > decides to stall Hamilton's progress

Schumacher - bullied by Senna but has none of it, likes winning > win at all cost

Senna - felt wronged by Prost/FISA > takes out Prost

Sorry Wedge, my above post was not aimed specifically at you. They were posted simultaneously.

[truefan72]

Yes, great video. As far as I remember, Montoya only raced in such an aggressive way in his duels against Schumacher. That's what I liked in him :) (sorry Ioan :) )

F1 today definitely needs pilots who give Hamilton a cookie of his own dough from time to time.

yeah, great stuff, the difference sadly is that if these two did the same exact things in 2008, the fIA would find a way to penalize Montoya and bend over backwards to please MS. I can image the complete and utter fiasco it would be both in the media and the forums.
I remember watching those races and being excited at the jousting. Montoya gave as good has he took, so did Hakkinen. Sometimes I think they went over the "arbitrary line" of competitiveness and those incidents were always subject to great debate. But in most part it was considered good aggressive driving and not "dirty".Even with some of MS' antics, only the most egregious did I feel were dirty. I think he was right non the borderline a few times, but I accepted it as his determination to win and edge over others. Now less than 10 years later, similar and much less blander moves by LH are condemned as dangerous and dirty. Perhaps a good number here haven't been around racing for more than a few years to remember those days and duels...while others conveniently choose amnesia in rendering their opinions. :rolleyes:

[truefan72]

It all depends on what you class as unsporting. For me the principles of sport lie in competition. Its a competition of who is the best. With regards to F1, it gets complicated because of the multiple dimensions of F1, drivers title, constructors etc.

So being unsporting is denying competition, going against the principles of sport.

With Hamilton, he said he went for it on the basis they both would have had enough time to gain an equal advantage. He didn't do it on basis it was hindering Alonso.

So for me it was not unsporting. It was ungentleman like, it was selfish, but it wasn't unsporting.

perfectly said :up:

[truefan72]

Is it coz he iz black? :p

that's over the line Daniel and you should be ashamed
adding a smiling face just makes it even worse

[Daniel]

that's over the line Daniel and you should be ashamed
adding a smiling face just makes it even worse
Why should I be ashamed? :confused:

[truefan72]

I remember the pre-race interview very well and he admitted that what he did in qualy was because he races to win so that blatantly shows there was an advantage to leading the pack in Q3 - clear track, run at pace with hindrance of traffic less likely so what equal opportunity are you referring to?

When DC criticised Schumi he said drivers should follow principles and gentlemanly conduct so surely being ungentlemanly and selfishness blurs the boundaries of whats considered unsporting?

there is absolutely no advantage to leading the pack on Q3.
if it were so, then I imagine every driver that lead the pack in Q3 has ended up on pole right?

You can do whatever you like in Q3 including slowing down and pitting twice and looking for your own windows or whatever. But that situation was purely and team situation and has nothing to do with actual racing.
now deliberately holding up a car in order for them not top be able to do a lap is unsporting, and he was punished accordingly. One had to do with team orders, the other had to do with racing.

[truefan72]

Why should I be ashamed? :confused:

unfortunately if you can't see the context of your shameful statement in terms of injecting the causality of lynching with race in a mocking manner, then confusion is the least of your worries. truly sad.

[Daniel]

I'll leave it to someone else to point out that you're way off with your remarks.

[ShiftingGears]

unfortunately if you can't see the context of your shameful statement in terms of injecting the causality of lynching with race in a mocking manner, then confusion is the least of your worries. truly sad.

It's true. Daniel hates black people.