Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago?

[weeflyonthewall]

How did my OLD thread here end up being re-ignited ???
The subject is DEAD, whatever bumps along the road, for better or worse, the "re-unific-mergific-ation" DID occur - so this is a DEAD topic.

Mod's please close this thread.

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago? Your post was pre-season. Some of us waited until after the last race to revisit the topic you initiated.

[JSH]

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago? Your post was pre-season. Some of us waited until after the last race to revisit the topic you initiated.

Yes.

United we stand... Divided we fall.

[SoCalPVguy]

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago?

That, sir, is an excellent topic for a new thread.

[bblocker68]

Yes, unless you go to TF or CCF :)

[dataman1]

Let's see. I believe having all united under one banner is good. Having all the dollars available today being spent in one effort is good.

Is the racing better, not yet but can be. Were people hurt, you bet, many veteran racing people like Billy Kamphausen still are unemployed and have been ignored by the ICS.

So to answer the question I would have to say: Maybe, I will judge again after I hear about Surfer's being dropped or added to the schedule and the fallout or gain of that decision.

[Bob Riebe]

No

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Yes. Now you can at least hope that some day, ordinary American people will actually care for the racing you love - like they did before... I mean, before 1996. With Champ Car, you had to accept it was going to remain a niche.

[garyshell]

No


Which begs the question, is it worse off???

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

Which begs the question, is it worse off???

GaryYES

[garyshell]

YES


Ok, that begs the next question... Care to elaborate?

In all honesty, I can't see how it could be any more worse off than it was last year. Or where it looked like it would be the first week of Feb this year. And I make that same observation about BOTH series. They were both headed for the dumper.

Gary

[underpowered]

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago? Your post was pre-season. Some of us waited until after the last race to revisit the topic you initiated.

Yes. It has some way to go, but at least the money is being invested in one series now.

I dont think it was good for AGR though. They are finding it harder to compete now that there are more entrants.

[SoCalPVguy]

This is an excellent thread. I have given this some though all year.

Overall the answer is YES because, in no particular order: 1) It is unified into one series, therefore the fan and media confusion has been eliminated; 2) There is no other open wheel racing competition for sponsor dollars; 3) Confusing races have been eliminated (i.e. "Indy" cars that don't run at Indy); 4) Competing telecasts have been eliminated and telecast quality is somewhat improved; 6) Sponsorship has increased over last year; 7) Driver quality is improving; 8) Media coverage has increased; 9) With the increased responsibility of running a unified series, the IRL leadership has improved personnel (example: Cotman) and ideas such as more road/street racing, and improved competition items) PtP, etc. 10) An overall much larger field (26+ cars) and deeper competetive field than when separate series; 11) Indy 500 is a part of a unified instead of an "orphan".

With these improvements does that mean that open wheel is healthy, sound, and thriving. NO, of course not- not even close. For example being the all star center on a midgets basketball team dosn't mean you can play in the NBA....

I think that the damage of the 13+ year split and fan animosity have damaged OWR to the point that it may never regain its peak poularity which I estimate to have occurred in about 1995. I can see a scenario whereby OWR takes two steps forward and one step back over the next ten years or so. It took a 13 year split to make this mess and it may take another 13 years together to heal it.

Some of the challenges and areas needing immediate improvement with OWR are as follows: 1) The VERSUS telecast idea is horrible, until OWR is on an over-the-air network or basic cable network, it is doomed to be a second tier sport like hockey and bicycle racing; 2) Sponsorship for both the series and all cars must be found and this will be tough in a lessening economy and in competetion with the monopolistic Nascar; 3) A more appealing and cost-effective car chassis-engine combination must be implemented, one that mirrors both high-tech and a "green" elements; 4) With sponsorship comes the elimination of unqualified ride-buyer drivers. 5) Losing locations and venues must be dropped and more popular venues must be added.

I'll probably post more when I think of them.

[SarahFan]

Yes.

United we stand... Divided we fall.

it's funny..... I was one of the first guys probably 4 or 5 yeras that sriosly started to preach unification...

what did i get for it

counted down... numerous times at the wagon.... and told repeatedly at TF that CC had nothing worth unifying with...


so from the CC side I was right as it failed..... and from the IRL side I was right as the IRL has become CARTII...

so here we are.....is the sport better off.....clearly the answer is Yes as there is now one series instead of two...

problem is Tony seems dead set on ignoreing the past and repeating the same mistakes the doomed CC


I enjoyed the on-track product in 2009 more than I have in some time..... but from a BIZ aspect and from we have seen transpire the past 8 months....i simply don't understand how we as fans couldn't still be concerned about the health of the sport as TG and the IRL navigate it's future

[Lousada]

This year is another year the IRL has declined in popularity. This despite the unification. If Champcar went another year, both would have shrunk at an even more rapid pace. So, the openwheel world is not better off, it's less worse off.

[DBell]

Better off in that there is one series, but the showed little improvement on the troubles that plague AOW. Growth is stagnate, sponsors remain elusive and the new TV deal,imo, is a step down. The fan base that is left is fractured, maybe beyond repair. Many question or don't believe that current IRL management is capable of leading OW back to prominence. I think a big key to whether the sport will really grow again is if new manufacturers come in 2 years. If it remains a spec series, then I don't see much changing.

Another question that could be asked is AOW growing, treading water or circling the drain.

[garyshell]

This year is another year the IRL has declined in popularity.

By what measure? Car count was up. Track attendance was up, over all, as was TV viewership. Sponsorship was up. So how do you arrive at that conclusion? Mind you, none of these were up by huge amounts, but up nonetheless.


This despite the unification. If Champcar went another year, both would have shrunk at an even more rapid pace.

I agree 1000%.


So, the openwheel world is not better off, it's less worse off.

A quibbling of semantics at best.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Track attendance was up, over all, as was TV viewership.

Gary


?

[Chris R]

Yes, the heart is beating again but the pulse is still pretty weak....

[Pat Wiatrowski]

NO!

[bblocker68]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Champcar guys who say "no" never knew what it was like before the split?

I have to say yes because I am not nervous about next year like I was 12 months ago. We had no clue what was going to happen at this time last year. We were all freaking out, wondering if we would have anything to look forward to. The product is not the best it can be, not by a long shot, but I have more confidence in the future going into 2009 as I've had in a long, long time.

That would reaffirm my "yes" answer.

[garyshell]

Track attendance was up, over all, as was TV viewership.


?


So what is your question Ken? Are you disputing that overall the attendance and TV viewership was up from 2007? There are specific instance of it being down, for sure. But cummulative, overall totals do appear to have it up. As I said, it was not by a larger amount. But still up, not down or level.

Gary

[SarahFan]

So what is your question Ken? Are you disputing that overall the attendance and TV viewership was up from 2007? There are specific instance of it being down, for sure. But cummulative, overall totals do appear to have it up. As I said, it was not by a larger amount. But still up, not down or level.

Gary

10 races saw a decline in TV ratings......and this year saw plays right out of the CC playbook.....3 day attendance #'s trumpeted...announced sellouts and capacity crowds at events with 1/2 full grandstands etc etc..

attandance was flat.... TV down

[Miatanut]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Champcar guys who say "no" never knew what it was like before the split?

I was going to stay away from this discussion, but this has drawn me in. Like a moth to a flame. Maybe I'm not a ChampCar guy. In its last year I thought they should shoot that lame horse and put it out of its misery. For the last several years I felt reunification was necessary because the sport would continue to decline as long as the split was going on, but Tony always had his 'my way or the highway' approach (which Surfers and Las Vegas are the most recent to experience) which made it difficult for anybody to do a deal with him.

In any case, I knew what it was like before the split. I knew what it was like before CART. By mid-70's I had figured out that USAC was IMS management's puppet and grown to dislike their approach. I thought CART was a fabulous idea from when the White Paper first became public. There was no doubt in my mind it was the right thing for the sport. It was like another Declaration of Independence. This bunch of team owners were going to take on the powerful USAC. They won their revolutionary war in one year flat! Their idea was so clearly better. It came as no surprise to me when the sport flourished under that structure.

As far as whether the open wheel world is better off than it was a year ago, I would have to say F1 is the best it's been in years and with the introduction of kinetic energy recovery, next year will be even more interesting. Thank God, because in the United States, the answer is No. We continue to see the same declines in the sport even though there is now only one series. The best the current series management can do is copy parts of the CART and CCWS play books.

If you go to motorsport.com photos, you will see most venues experienced a decline in attendance. The TV ratings have been a mixed bag. I don't think it's possible to demonstrate and average increase. With no competition, there SHOULD be an average increase. More teams? DUH! They had no time to do anything else, unless they wanted to suspend operations (which Forsythe did). For next year, I will be surprised to see if some teams don't go to ALMS or GrandAm. The true test on team count will be next year.

Things will be better when the people with gasoline running in their veins are running the sport, if that should ever happen again. If it doesn't happen, we will continue to see the sport putzing along at a fraction of its former glory.

Too bad.

[Lousada]

This is what I found:

IRL 2008 TV Ratings
Ovals
Homestead .8
Motegi .23
Kansas .66
Indy 4.5
Milwaukee .6
Texas .8
Iowa 1.1
Richmond .9
Nashville .5
Kentucky .43
Chicago .8


Street/Road Circuits
St Pete .4
(Long Beach .8)
Watkins Glen 1.0
Mid Ohio 1.3
Edmonton (can't find ratings)
Sonoma .41
Belle Isle .9

Average with Indy: .95
Average without Indy: .72
Averages include Long Beach and exclude Edmonton.

Perhaps someone can put them next to last years rating.

[maccadownunder]

I haven't commented about this gear much of late. With Surfers coming up I am not really excited after the equipment etc we had last year and what is being provided this year with no points at stake and downgrade in HP and technology....

To be honest I don't know where we stand. I haven't watched a race this year (although I tried) I miss the Champcar product from last year. Although I see the benefits of the merge, I wish it had been done a better way. IE Selecting the best of each series rather than what (I personally see as ) a capitulation by Champcar.

I think this question will probably have an answer based upon which side of the fence you stood prior to the "merge". I myself think we have gone backwards within the last 12 months of AOWR. The base however gives us a chance to get back to what everybody envied only a few years back now.

It will take a long time and a lot of new people to get the series and the common feeling amongst fans that things are heading in the right direction.

It can be done. And I hope for the sport overall it does get done. It is going to take some time and a lot of buried hatchets.

[Bob Riebe]

Ok, that begs the next question... Care to elaborate?

In all honesty, I can't see how it could be any more worse off than it was last year. Or where it looked like it would be the first week of Feb this year. And I make that same observation about BOTH series. They were both headed for the dumper.

Gary
Rather than simple guide-lines between which the racers must operate, a sanction is trying to edict what to build and how to build it.

It is more quasi-spec. which works fine for week-end SCCA or amateur racers but a formula that IS now turng most forms of professional racing into a farce driven by greed and arrogance.

[DBell]

Rather than simple guide-lines between which the racers must operate, a sanction is trying to edict what to build and how to build it.

It is more quasi-spec. which works fine for week-end SCCA or amateur racers but a formula that IS now turng most forms of professional racing into a farce driven by greed and arrogance.

Good Post.

[garyshell]

Ok, that begs the next question... Care to elaborate?

In all honesty, I can't see how it could be any more worse off than it was last year. Or where it looked like it would be the first week of Feb this year. And I make that same observation about BOTH series. They were both headed for the dumper.

Gary


Rather than simple guide-lines between which the racers must operate, a sanction is trying to edict what to build and how to build it.

It is more quasi-spec. which works fine for week-end SCCA or amateur racers but a formula that IS now turng most forms of professional racing into a farce driven by greed and arrogance.


So how the hell does that make it any more worse off than last year when we had two competing series with PRECISELY the same scenario you describe, but with each individual series having fewer drivers, poorer attendance and lower TV ratings. I still don't see how we are ANY worse off.

Look I am not saying we have made huge strides, clearly we haven't. I think it is just baby steps. But I think all this "we are worse off" talk, is just that... talk. I don't see a case being made at all.

Gary

[SarahFan]

So how the hell does that make it any more worse off than last year when we had two competing series with PRECISELY the same scenario you describe, but with each individual series having fewer drivers, poorer attendance and lower TV ratings. I still don't see how we are ANY worse off.

Look I am not saying we have made huge strides, clearly we haven't. I think it is just baby steps. But I think all this "we are worse off" talk, is just that... talk. I don't see a case being made at all.

Garyattendance is flat and ratings down

[HiWayStar]

Champ Car's big turnaround, which should have happened last year, didn't. Sponsorship woes continued; the tv package with ESPN turned out to be a bad joke. Folding their tent & merging into IndyCar was unfortunately inevitable, unless the principals wanted to continue to pump millions into a (seemingly) hopeless cause.

But losing Champ Car did not seem to do AOWR any good, either. Even with 1 series, the old problems continue. The IRL is a boring series, period (IMO)... THe cars are ugly, they sound horrible, & their venues, while getting slowly better over the years, still suck, compared to Champ Car's. Most distressing is seeing that the 2009 IndyCar schedule still has not incorporated Road America or Cleveland. Instead we have the same collection of generic ISC 1.5 mi ovals, barren wastelands like Sonoma, & immortal classics like Belle Isle.

At least, last year, there was still some hope that AOWR would somehow find some sort of light at the end of the tunnel. Now, well, let's just say I'm not holding my breath...

[ShiftingGears]

No.

[fugariracing]

Champ Car's big turnaround, which should have happened last year, didn't. Sponsorship woes continued; the tv package with ESPN turned out to be a bad joke. Folding their tent & merging into IndyCar was unfortunately inevitable, unless the principals wanted to continue to pump millions into a (seemingly) hopeless cause.

But losing Champ Car did not seem to do AOWR any good, either. Even with 1 series, the old problems continue. The IRL is a boring series, period (IMO)... THe cars are ugly, they sound horrible, & their venues, while getting slowly better over the years, still suck, compared to Champ Car's. Most distressing is seeing that the 2009 IndyCar schedule still has not incorporated Road America or Cleveland. Instead we have the same collection of generic ISC 1.5 mi ovals, barren wastelands like Sonoma, & immortal classics like Belle Isle.

At least, last year, there was still some hope that AOWR would somehow find some sort of light at the end of the tunnel. Now, well, let's just say I'm not holding my breath...

Several good points here. CC 07 was sad, for sure, in terms of the promised gains and the reality of race cancellations, pay-drivers and the lack of leadership from the principals. And in terms of awareness, outside of the fanatics plus the diehards who have stuck by CART/CC regardless of the circumstances, CC barely raised a blip on the national radar. I think the last time it was on SportsCenter was for Legge's RA crash in 06, I don't remember it once last year.

IRL has its flaws for sure and no-one expected this thing to miraculously turn around overnight. What I worry about now is that the principals involved in this are overlooking the mistakes that doomed CC and drove it to its grave. The TV contract, the lack of speed in moving up the new car, and not adopting the few good things that CC had to offer. For PT to not be in a car was a brutal slap in the face both from Forsythe and TG, Edmonton notwithstanding. Also to not adopt the option tires, P2P, or even more HP for road/street courses needs to be addressed b/c as many acknowledge, the current car looks like a dog on these circuits.

I think the issue with tracks is contracts and whereas so many had their races killed off for this year, TG will honor the ones he has through 09 and then he and his minions will look to a better, cleaner slate in 2010. I don't think of TG very highly at all but it's his ship now, and whether it sinks or swims is solely in his court.

The attendance was definitely up at a few tracks this year, especially the races I was at (Indy, Milwaukee and Chicagoland). It was refreshing to see 24-28 cars a race after six years of 20 or less. Yes, there were a couple new sponsors, but still a number of them are tied to the team owners and drivers. Some TV ratings were up but for the most part the coverage was abysmal. And as I've written, I fail to see how it's beneficial in the long run for a series looking or thinking about growing to move its product to a network that no one gets.

At the moment, I think the ship's afloat. But not by much. So to answer the original question, OW is better off now than last year in that there's only one series, but next year's changes will prove vital to its longterm survival. But the series has to address the issues still facing it and soon, preferably next year. Otherwise, it ain't gonna make it much past 2011 and TG's beloved centennial anniversary of the 500.

[markabilly]

open wheel racing has been dieing a slow death,,,,,the combo will only keep the pateient alive for a little longer, unless something drastic happens.....Nascar may be the culprit more than anything else

[indycool]

Yes, it's better, if for no other reason than it's one series.

But there's no microwave. It took 12 years to take it apart and put it back together. For it to thrive, it's going to take some time. For it to thrive to meet the standards of thriving to some is about two generations down the line.

[F1boat]

Yes, we have one championship. :)

[Rex Monaco]

Yes, it's better, if for no other reason than it's one series.

But there's no microwave. It took 12 years to take it apart and put it back together. For it to thrive, it's going to take some time. For it to thrive to meet the standards of thriving to some is about two generations down the line.

+1

[SarahFan]

two generations?

[indycool]

The way some sound, probably 'bout that.

[eirenspeed]

Tony George won
What a laod of CRAP

[speeddurango]

The attendence, ratings grid sizes are all up for the IRL for sure , I don't actually think there's any further need to argue about the facts, they just have to keep the momentum in the long run.

[NickFalzone]

2007 on the left, 2008 on the right. I'm no mathematician, but eyeballing these numbers, the ratings look flat overall from 2007. Overall they're just crappy ratings that tend to shift up and down slightly but no real significant gains or losses. It's possible Olympics brought ratings down here and there. I threw these into "rough" order by race, may be off by a week here and there. Ratings are primarily from wikipedia nielsens:

.7 Homestead .8
.6 St Pete .4
.4 Motegi .27 rainout .33 re-air
.3 Kansas .74
4.3 Indy 4.5
1.0 Milwaukee .8
.7 Texas 1.0
1.0 Watkins Glen 1.1
1.1 Iowa 1.1
.6 Richmond .9
1.7 Mid Ohio 1.3
Edmonton (can't find ratings)
.4 Nashville .5
.6 Kentucky .43* (overnight, not final)
.6 Sonoma .41
1.0 Belle Isle .9
.9 Chicago .8


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_IndyCar_Series_season
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_IndyCar_Series_season

Versus may not be the ratings savior, but it might shake things up a bit to make things interesting here and there. On ESPN, IndyCar was going nowhere fast, they had zero interest in helping to make the series a success.

[NickFalzone]

The attendence, ratings grid sizes are all up for the IRL for sure , I don't actually think there's any further need to argue about the facts, they just have to keep the momentum in the long run.

Nearly every race has had increased at-track attendance. Unfortunately, tv ratings are much more important, and they are stagnant.

[Bob Riebe]

So how the hell does that make it any more worse off than last year when we had two competing series with PRECISELY the same scenario you describe, but with each individual series having fewer drivers, poorer attendance and lower TV ratings. I still don't see how we are ANY worse off.

Look I am not saying we have made huge strides, clearly we haven't. I think it is just baby steps. But I think all this "we are worse off" talk, is just that... talk. I don't see a case being made at all.

Gary
Simple as long as anything has competition, i.e. another sanction/s with similar vehicles, no one can relax, the opposition is always there to keep all on their toes; remove that and arrogance, apathy or the worst, a combination of both set-in.

[ShiftingGears]

I'll clarify why I think it isn't better off. I think IndyCar now has more potential than in 2007 (because two OW series with not much to distinguish between them to the average fan fighting for the same market would never work), however I think the re-unified series hasn't been the sum of its 2007 predecessors. They should think about getting the new car in as fast as possible, because boring cars, no matter how good the drivers, generally produce boring races.

[indycool]

The new car isn't going to make things soar happily o'er the ramparts by itself instantly, either. Remember the DP-01? It was supposed to do just that. A broad combination of things, over time, over a LONG time, will be progress, not a tenth of a rating point here, or a new race car there or a washed-up F1 driver today by themselves.

[beachbum]

The new car isn't going to make things soar happily o'er the ramparts by itself instantly, either. Remember the DP-01? It was supposed to do just that. A broad combination of things, over time, over a LONG time, will be progress, not a tenth of a rating point here, or a new race car there or a washed-up F1 driver today by themselves.As you point out, any progress will be slow. What is often lost in these "discussions" is that open wheel prior to the merger was in a fast downward slide with declining fields, subsidized teams and general lack of interest. Neither series was going to survive long in that condition. The question posed by most impartial pundits a year or so ago was which series would stumble first, not which was stronger or growing. The merger may have stopped some of the bleeding and bought time for a turnaround, but open wheel still faces an uphill battle.

For decades, detractors have claimed motor sports in general was losing relevance and all forms of racing would be banned or fall away for lack of interest. That hasn't happened - yet, but now we have the specter of hybrid racing in LeMans, ALMS, and F1, and ecologically "proper" fuels like bio-fuels. High technology has all but pushed out the "little guy" and in all forms of racing. Racing is changing, and trying to present the past as the future may not last for long. NASCAR survives because it is an artificial entertainment show and the cars aren't the stars. They are some modern high tech elements wrapped around a 40 year old basic low tech design. But even the big kahuna of racing is facing economic hard times with major teams bringing in outside investors, merging teams , and fighting over the few sponsors left that can support an expensive showcase.

Realistically, significant growth in open wheel may not be possible, but building a strong niche following that maintains the status quo may be the best that is sustainable. That is still better than what happened to many past forms of racing that eventually faded away, like F5000, Can-Am, Trans-Am. It may be more important to focus on being a survivor than trying to be the top dog.

So IMHO, the answer to "Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago? " depends on the qualifier "compared to what?". Compared to what we dream should be possible or dreamed or compared to the reality of the times? In the real world, the answer has to be yes as the slide has been slowed or at least temporarily stopped. Only time will tell if that is enough for survival in the future.

[SarahFan]

Nearly every race has had increased at-track attendance. Unfortunately, tv ratings are much more important, and they are stagnant.

attendance up?.... can you back that statement up?

and ratings aren't stagnant they are down...period...look no further than the last 9 races of the year

[Chris R]

attendance up?.... can you back that statement up?

and ratings aren't stagnant they are down...period...look no further than the last 9 races of the year

Doing the straight math on nick's numbers (assuming they are right) I added up the total ratings and divided by 16.

Last year the average rating was .99375 this year it was 1.000625.

I would call that stagnant - can't say it is down but nobody should be gloating about those numbers......

[Chris R]

I would like to see a compilation of attendance numbers somewhere - I think it is fair to argue that a TV bump may take a couple of years (casual fan base needs to be re-built) - but I would think an attendance bump should have happened this year as more "hard-core" fans came to see everyone run together.... if there is no attendance bump we have an issue.....

[SarahFan]

Doing the straight math on nick's numbers (assuming they are right) I added up the total ratings and divided by 16.

Last year the average rating was .99375 this year it was 1.000625.

I would call that stagnant - can't say it is down but nobody should be gloating about those numbers......

seriosly.....I came up with .975624

which of coarse is down....and again look no further than the end of the season....trending downward

[SarahFan]

I would like to see a compilation of attendance numbers somewhere - I think it is fair to argue that a TV bump may take a couple of years (casual fan base needs to be re-built) - but I would think an attendance bump should have happened this year as more "hard-core" fans came to see everyone run together.... if there is no attendance bump we have an issue.....

I'd say it's not "fair" to argue that at all....attendance and ratings should ebb and flow at a relative pace....those same HARD-CORE fans should have also been tuning in

Simple as long as anything has competition, i.e. another sanction/s with similar vehicles, no one can relax, the opposition is always there to keep all on their toes; remove that and arrogance, apathy or the worst, a combination of both set-in.

Using that theory, would you care to explain the success of Formula One & Nascar?

[garyshell]

attendance is flat and ratings down


The attendence, ratings grid sizes are all up for the IRL for sure , I don't actually think there's any further need to argue about the facts, they just have to keep the momentum in the long run.


Ken doesn't seem to think so, yet he never posts any numbers to refute the ones posted elsewhere.

Gary

[garyshell]

Simple as long as anything has competition, i.e. another sanction/s with similar vehicles, no one can relax, the opposition is always there to keep all on their toes; remove that and arrogance, apathy or the worst, a combination of both set-in.


Oh please, you have got to be kidding me. Now I do want some of what you've been smokin. Are you honestly suggesting we need two series? Do you not remember a thing of what transpired the past twelve years. Two series duking it out or as you put it "in competition" got us into the absolute mess we are now. And you want to go back to that model? :eek:

So how the hell do you propose we can have two series and get Madison Ave. involved in both? That is the ONLY question that needs to be answered. Without an answer to that the whole concept is a non-starter. For without that answer there is no series. Period.

Bob, most of the time your thoughts and ideas are spot on, but here I think your idea is so far out in right field.

Gary

[garyshell]

Using that theory, would you care to explain the success of Formula One & Nascar?


Bob, I too, anxiously await your answer to this one.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ken doesn't seem to think so, yet he never posts any numbers to refute the ones posted elsewhere.

Gary

come Gary....should i post that article where the venue and IRl were touting sell-out and capicity crowd?

or can we all just be honest about it

[garyshell]

come Gary....should i post that article where the venue and IRl were touting sell-out and capicity crowd?

or can we all just be honest about it


The point is, Ken, you have no way to substantiate your claim that over all attendance was down. Do you? Most of the first hand reports here from different tracks, had folks thinking that the size of the crowds looked larger. Not substantially larger, but larger. I did not hear a single eye witness report that thought a crowd looked smaller. Did you? Even the reports talking about the disparity betwixt the promoters number and actuality, had some indicating a bump from the previous years.

I am not taking the track claims of sell outs into account at all. We all know what those are worth. Speaking of which, I need to go to the toilet.

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

Oh please, you have got to be kidding me. Now I do want some of what you've been smokin. Are you honestly suggesting we need two series? Do you not remember a thing of what transpired the past twelve years. Two series duking it out or as you put it "in competition" got us into the absolute mess we are now. And you want to go back to that model? :eek:

So how the hell do you propose we can have two series and get Madison Ave. involved in both? That is the ONLY question that needs to be answered. Without an answer to that the whole concept is a non-starter. For without that answer there is no series. Period.

Bob, most of the time your thoughts and ideas are spot on, but here I think your idea is so far out in right field.

Gary
With Tony George probably yes, but what it needs, that it no longer can get, is competition.
You forget that into the eighties all series, (stock cars had competition in kind) were fighting, across genre for an audience that was not stuck to one form or another, THAT IS GONE, and the only thing that kept the IRL honest, till CART self-destructed was CART.
(road racing thrived from the seventies to mid-eighties when two sanctions fought for the same audience, and teams. When that stopped, within ten years one ceased to exist and the other dropped its professional division.)

TG--appears to be--a self-centered obtuse person, who will most likely keep open wheel racing in the slough it is in.
NASCAR will likely self-destruct, but with the exceptions of drags and short tracks, motor sports is slowly becoming irrelevant to the very sponsors that once fought for advertising space.
SANCTIONT COMPETED for the attention of sponsors; that day is gone and narcissistic arrogance IS NOT a force to improve racing.

If you think what is going on now will make oepn wheel grow, forget it. Happy thoughts do not work.
Bob
PS--I thought that the Copper World Classic was as indestructible as Indy, it took TG how long to kill it?

[Bob Riebe]

Bob, I too, anxiously await your answer to this one.

Gary
F-1---I will after the next U.S. Grand Prix.
I assume you think the U.S. government should spend the millions for a race that the third world countries do.
If you think F-1 has one damn thing to do with motor sports, you are very gullible.
Go to the AtlasF1 site and read posts by people who have/had attended for years or even know people/or were involved, if you think that series is an analogy for future success.

NASCAR stopped growing; whereas that occured earlier because Bill Sr. was getting the left-overs from other series: USAC, IMCA or actively eliminating, them, ASA; or gaining control of a series by gaining control of tracks they run at: ARCA.

OH and how many other series have their own network to make things look as good as they want, not as good as it really is.
(the france boy was going to bring out the generic engine till Detroit told him you do, we leave. Toyota's success, and how it is handled will be very interesting)

Motor Sports used to run by a set of rules that WAS NOT the way you run a business.
Trying to turn it into a business, has probably garanteed its eventual failure.
People used to spend/ lose huge sums of money racing simply because they felt like it.Take away the spirit that drove then and they will walk away without blinking.

[garyshell]

Simple as long as anything has competition, i.e. another sanction/s with similar vehicles, no one can relax, the opposition is always there to keep all on their toes; remove that and arrogance, apathy or the worst, a combination of both set-in.


You forget that into the eighties all series, (stock cars had competition in kind) were fighting, across genre for an audience that was not stuck to one form or another, THAT IS GONE, and the only thing that kept the IRL honest, till CART self-destructed was CART.

So now we jump from direct competition with similar vehicles to competition acrosss genre. That's a mighty big change of horses mid-argument, no? But I'll bite and agree that cross genre competiton can be a good thing.

I am not sure I share your rosy picture of road racing in the seventies and eighties with two sanctioning bodies. I don't quite remember it being that way.

Look what has happened to Grand-Am vs. ALMS or what is about to transpire with AMA and a breakaway series. It's not pretty.

Gary

[Chris R]

seriosly.....I came up with .975624

which of coarse is down....and again look no further than the end of the season....trending downward

I think the difference is I gave the benefit of the doubt and took the higher number on the rebroadcast of Motegi..... either way - I am not saying these are good numbers.....

[Chris R]

I'd say it's not "fair" to argue that at all....attendance and ratings should ebb and flow at a relative pace....those same HARD-CORE fans should have also been tuning in

I would argue that the hardcore fans -all of them- were already tuned in before the merger. Far more still watch than attend so I am thinking post-merger more of us hard core fans would have shelled out the big $$ to go to a race but clearly that is not the case...

Please don't mistake my thoughts for defending the situation/IRL/TG - I am also disappointed - but I am thinking we need another season to see how things are looking - if these things are not CLEARLY trending upward at the end of next season my views will be different.....

My point is that it is neither as bad nor as good as many would like to believe....

[dataman1]

2008 was the worst the world economy has seen in long long time. Most forms of motorsports have seen declines in track attendance. If the economy does not improve attendance will get worse and sponsors less free with their money. People on have a certain amount of discretionary income to spend. The cost to travel went up in gasoline and/or airfares while many lost jobs across the U.S. Personally I went to local tracks for entertainment this summer to save dollars yet get my fix.

For that reason I think it would be hard to compare attendance data.

[SoCalPVguy]

A lot of the above posts are mired in trivia and minutiae that obfuscate the main point of the thread. "Better off" to me does not mean that the attendance is slightly up, down, or the same, it does not mean the TV ratings are also either up, down, or the same as last year... Drop the nit picking numbers and look at the "big picture".

"Better off' to me means that the POTENTIAL is there to grow the series. I don't care even if the ratings and attendance are down (they weren't), that is easily explainable in a transition year in a less than certain economy, the fact is that there was never any hope of two competing series such as we had the past 13 years growing and enhancing open wheel racing in America. Starting this year (like it or not under the IRL) the opportunity to grow and enhance open wheel racing in America is now available where it was not before - and that, my friends, is "Better off".

PS: Now "really better off" would include a more accessible TV package.... but that's another subject.

[Bob Riebe]

So now we jump from direct competition with similar vehicles to competition acrosss genre. That's a mighty big change of horses mid-argument, no? But I'll bite and agree that cross genre competiton can be a good thing.

I am not sure I share your rosy picture of road racing in the seventies and eighties with two sanctioning bodies. I don't quite remember it being that way.

Look what has happened to Grand-Am vs. ALMS or what is about to transpire with AMA and a breakaway series. It's not pretty.

Gary
Indy cars have NEVER existed in a vacuum.

NASCAR is now in a world by itself. (and I still have the Autoweek where SCCA said it was going to near EXACTLY copy NASCAR; where-after with-in five years the T-A was solidly on the quick road to irrelavence.)

When the IMSA and GARRA made rules that were totally different, and took the one U.S. track, that people outside of the U.S. were quite familiar with [not to mention that euro teams sent cars to just to be there in the seventies and eighties] off the international scene, PLUS the fact that the SCCA had killed the prod. based classes, which OFTEN made up a large part of the field up into the eighties, what happened was predictable.

The IMSA (Gary Panoz) had this vision that Detroit cared as much about LeMans as he did, he was wrong; GARRA had the delusion that as well known as Daytona was, everyone would care about GARRA, they were wrong; IRL and CART, each had to TRY to prove that one was better than the other, so for a handful of years, both were trying to be numero uno, and put on a fairly decent show.
CART had this delusion that business practices would carry the day, they were wrong; T.G. and his IRL had-- I am not sure anyone knows what the hell T.G. was thinking, ever, but bizareness won the battle while taking Indy cars down to the same level of mediocrity the IMSA and GARRA had reached.
Different reasons for being there, but same end result, and I SEE no reason to think it will change, much less get better.

RESULT,the self-centered sanction kahunas who THOUGHT their worlds existed in a vacuum, found out the hard way, they were just one thread of a big garment that was unraveling.

[Jacques]

A lot of the above posts are mired in trivia and minutiae that obfuscate the main point of the thread. "Better off" to me does not mean that the attendance is slightly up, down, or the same, it does not mean the TV ratings are also either up, down, or the same as last year... Drop the nit picking numbers and look at the "big picture".

"Better off' to me means that the POTENTIAL is there to grow the series. I don't care even if the ratings and attendance are down (they weren't), that is easily explainable in a transition year in a less than certain economy, the fact is that there was never any hope of two competing series such as we had the past 13 years growing and enhancing open wheel racing in America. Starting this year (like it or not under the IRL) the opportunity to grow and enhance open wheel racing in America is now available where it was not before - and that, my friends, is "Better off".

PS: Now "really better off" would include a more accessible TV package.... but that's another subject.
First off, ratings and attendance are down, so deal with it. That alone should make you question whether things ARE better off.
Secondly, the unification could have happened by joining the IRL to CC. Would that have been better ? Or maybe, TG could have given control to someone who knows what she is doing. Would that have been better ?

Just because the "opportunity" to grow is there, it does not mean that things are better off. That "opportunity" was always there.

If no one wants to buy Betamax tapes, does it matter if only one company, instead of three, is selling Betamax ?

The IRL was not able to stop the loss of fans in 13 years. It was not able to attract new fans in 13 years. This year was no different than the previous 13 years. How is that being "better off" ?

[Chris R]

First off, ratings and attendance are down, so deal with it. That alone should make you question whether things ARE better off.
Secondly, the unification could have happened by joining the IRL to CC. Would that have been better ? Or maybe, TG could have given control to someone who knows what she is doing. Would that have been better ?

Just because the "opportunity" to grow is there, it does not mean that things are better off. That "opportunity" was always there.

If no one wants to buy Betamax tapes, does it matter if only one company, instead of three, is selling Betamax ?

The IRL was not able to stop the loss of fans in 13 years. It was not able to attract new fans in 13 years. This year was no different than the previous 13 years. How is that being "better off" ?

ok, the betamax comparison is pretty good - the situation needs to be judged by more than "potential" and "opportunity".

Since at best ratings and attendance are more or less level with the past year (I have not seen anything concrete to indicate a significant change in either) , we still have one chassis, one engine manufacturer, no series sponsor, and plenty of teams up in the air for 2009 - sounds like more of the same to me - so I am going to revise my opinion to "unchanged"

[downtowndeco]

Seriously, anyone who doesn't think OW racing isn't in a 100% better position than it was 12 months ago can just go jump in the lake with the other dead enders.

Any fair minded person knew it wasn't going to turn around over night. That the IRL did was well as it did in todays economic climate (have you seen all of the empty grandstands at NASCAR events this year?) tells me they're doing something right.


Some here paint it as a failure because they WANT it to be a failure. For ten years they've been telling us that if CC were to fail they'd NEVER support anything to do with the IRL. That they'd never support a series that TG was in charge of. That if CC failed that there was no way, no how that the IRL would be able to make it on it's own. Every fiber of their being and belief system NEEDS the IRL to fail. Otherwise they've spent thirteen years of their life being angry and backing the wrong horse.

[SarahFan]

Some here paint it as a failure because they WANT it to be a failure. For ten years they've been telling us that if CC were to fail they'd NEVER support anything to do with the IRL. That they'd never support a series that TG was in charge of. That if CC failed that there was no way, no how that the IRL would be able to make it on it's own. Every fiber of their being and belief system NEEDS the IRL to fail. Otherwise they've spent thirteen years of their life being angry and backing the wrong horse.


what a load of crap......

[SoCalPVguy]

First off, ratings and attendance are down, so deal with it. That alone should make you question whether things ARE better off.
Secondly, the unification could have happened by joining the IRL to CC. Would that have been better ? Or maybe, TG could have given control to someone who knows what she is doing. Would that have been better ?

Just because the "opportunity" to grow is there, it does not mean that things are better off. That "opportunity" was always there.

If no one wants to buy Betamax tapes, does it matter if only one company, instead of three, is selling Betamax ?

The IRL was not able to stop the loss of fans in 13 years. It was not able to attract new fans in 13 years. This year was no different than the previous 13 years. How is that being "better off" ?

First I have followed your postings for a while and I recognize you are an old CC-only guy that has wanted nothing to do with any unification involving IRL control. That was my position years ago but as time wore on I realized there had to be one series and that series must contain the I500. So I know you are not going to give any credit for this series now as being "better off".

First I have not seen any definitive, accurate numbers other than historically unreliable message board postings that indicate TV ratings and attenance are down. A few number have been bandied about her that at best indicate a small movement up or down. But compare that to NASCAR where attendance and/or TV ratings are down up to 15%. Even a 'no change' in ratings or attendance is better off versus that, no ?

Yes, as you say " the unification could have happened by joining the IRL to CC.". That is not what happened, so don't dwell on the hypothetical, please dwell upon the actual case, and as such is an "off topic" post subject.

Your comment "Or maybe, TG could have given control to someone who knows what she is doing. " Same thing - a hypothetical that did not hapen and is "off topic". Don't live in a dream world, son, live in the real world. Life isn't about 'what happens' it is about 'what you do about what happens'.

You then wrote "That "opportunity" was always there." NO- Not true. The opportunity for two competing OW racing series in the same locale, competing for sponsors, tracks, TV stations, fans in seats, fans on tube, etc... to each grow and prosper was NOT there (by the actual results).

Finally you state " If no one wants to buy Betamax tapes, does it matter if only one company, instead of three, is selling Betamax ?" This is some kind of non-sequiter analogy that I don't understand - I think it means you think that no-one wants open wheel racing at all. On this we must disagree.

CCWS after CART failed, deal with it - and if you cannot see that OW racing in America is better off now than it was a year ago, especially in today's uncertain economy, you need to open your eyes to the "big picture".


PS- DD, your comments are 'spot on'.

[SarahFan]

Some here paint it as a failure because they WANT it to be a failure. For ten years they've been telling us that if CC were to fail they'd NEVER support anything to do with the IRL. That they'd never support a series that TG was in charge of. That if CC failed that there was no way, no how that the IRL would be able to make it on it's own. Every fiber of their being and belief system NEEDS the IRL to fail. Otherwise they've spent thirteen years of their life being angry and backing the wrong horse.


that's a double edged sword that clearly works both ways...


it seems agenda has replaced honesty

[Bob Riebe]

(have you seen all of the empty grandstands at NASCAR events this year?) tells me they're doing something right.

Just what the ***** doe this have to do with the supposed SUCCESS of the IRL, not one ***** thing.
It merely shows near ALL of motorsports is now unraveling, not that the IRL is any better than it was.
For the IRL to grow side-ways means it is not getting worse, NOT that it is getting better, and without CC keeping T.G. on his toes, his history shows that THAT is not a given.

[downtowndeco]

Just what the ***** doe this have to do with the supposed SUCCESS of the IRL, not one ***** thing.
It merely shows near ALL of motorsports is now unraveling, not that the IRL is any better than it was.
For the IRL to grow side-ways means it is not getting worse, NOT that it is getting better, and without CC keeping T.G. on his toes, his history shows that THAT is not a given.

It shows that the IRL is holding it's own in a tough market while NASCAR is slipping. Easy enough concept.

[Jacques]

First I have followed your postings for a while and I recognize you are an old CC-only guy that has wanted nothing to do with any unification involving IRL control. That was my position years ago but as time wore on I realized there had to be one series and that series must contain the I500. So I know you are not going to give any credit for this series now as being "better off".

First I have not seen any definitive, accurate numbers other than historically unreliable message board postings that indicate TV ratings and attenance are down. A few number have been bandied about her that at best indicate a small movement up or down. But compare that to NASCAR where attendance and/or TV ratings are down up to 15%. Even a 'no change' in ratings or attendance is better off versus that, no ?

Yes, as you say " the unification could have happened by joining the IRL to CC.". That is not what happened, so don't dwell on the hypothetical, please dwell upon the actual case, and as such is an "off topic" post subject.

Your comment "Or maybe, TG could have given control to someone who knows what she is doing. " Same thing - a hypothetical that did not hapen and is "off topic". Don't live in a dream world, son, live in the real world. Life isn't about 'what happens' it is about 'what you do about what happens'.

You then wrote "That "opportunity" was always there." NO- Not true. The opportunity for two competing OW racing series in the same locale, competing for sponsors, tracks, TV stations, fans in seats, fans on tube, etc... to each grow and prosper was NOT there (by the actual results).

Finally you state " If no one wants to buy Betamax tapes, does it matter if only one company, instead of three, is selling Betamax ?" This is some kind of non-sequiter analogy that I don't understand - I think it means you think that no-one wants open wheel racing at all. On this we must disagree.

CCWS after CART failed, deal with it - and if you cannot see that OW racing in America is better off now than it was a year ago, especially in today's uncertain economy, you need to open your eyes to the "big picture".


PS- DD, your comments are 'spot on'.

In other words : people HAVE to agree with your point of view :rolleyes:

Once again, you think that Indy is a success if Nascar and CART die and/or are losing fans. Irrespective of how "bad" Nascar maybe, it does not mean that Indy is "better off." Nascar's fans are not moving towards Indy - the only one to make that move was Dario (and he was forced to do it).

Just because you "want" Indy to succeed, it does not mean that it is succeeding or that it will will succeed. Other than your wishful thinking, what evidence is there that OW is better off ?

[Jacques]

Seriously, anyone who doesn't think OW racing isn't in a 100% better position than it was 12 months ago can just go jump in the lake with the other dead enders.

Any fair minded person knew it wasn't going to turn around over night. That the IRL did was well as it did in todays economic climate (have you seen all of the empty grandstands at NASCAR events this year?) tells me they're doing something right.


Some here paint it as a failure because they WANT it to be a failure. For ten years they've been telling us that if CC were to fail they'd NEVER support anything to do with the IRL. That they'd never support a series that TG was in charge of. That if CC failed that there was no way, no how that the IRL would be able to make it on it's own. Every fiber of their being and belief system NEEDS the IRL to fail. Otherwise they've spent thirteen years of their life being angry and backing the wrong horse.

You sound/write like CART fans who refused to see the writing on the wall. Or like IRL fans who refused to see the writing on the wall. Just because you can force yourself to believe that Indy is growing, or that it now has a previously untapped potential for growth, it does not make it so.

Other than taking some of CC's teams, some of which may not be back next year, what other "new" teams have signed up ? Sponsors ? TV deal ? New fans ?

Granted, it is the first year, but there is no difference between this year and the previous thirteen.

[Bob Riebe]

It shows that the IRL is holding it's own in a tough market while NASCAR is slipping. Easy enough concept.
In your mind.
Not slipping from where it is means little for if it did slip, it would follow CC.

If it stay where it is, which really just means Indy will survive as it does not need a series, that is fine, that does not mean it is better off in any way than it was.

[downtowndeco]

In your mind.
Not slipping from where it is means little for if it did slip, it would follow CC.

If it stay where it is, which really just means Indy will survive as it does not need a series, that is fine, that does not mean it is better off in any way than it was.

I can't believe that you don't think OW racing/The IRL is in a much better position than it was a year ago. Simply can't believe it.

[Rex Monaco]

It shows that the IRL is holding it's own in a tough market while NASCAR is slipping. Easy enough concept.

NASCAR has a long way to slip before it could be considered IRL's equal.

[downtowndeco]

You sound/write like CART fans who refused to see the writing on the wall. Or like IRL fans who refused to see the writing on the wall. Just because you can force yourself to believe that Indy is growing, or that it now has a previously untapped potential for growth, it does not make it so.

Other than taking some of CC's teams, some of which may not be back next year, what other "new" teams have signed up ? Sponsors ? TV deal ? New fans ?

Granted, it is the first year, but there is no difference between this year and the previous thirteen.

The difference is CART went BK. CCWS went BK. The IRL is still in business and holding steady. That is all of the difference in the world.

Solid long term TV contract. 26/27 cars on the grid. Most races returning. All races paying a sanctioing fee (no self promotes). Danica. Foyt. Andretti. Castroneves. Weldon. Dario is back. One series.

[downtowndeco]

NASCAR has a long way to slip before it could be considered IRL's equal.

True. But the point is in a tough market the IRL is going up, not down. It is poised for massive growth in the next few years.

[garyshell]

True. But the point is in a tough market the IRL is going up, not down. It is poised for massive growth in the next few years.


Poised for growth I am willing to agree to, but massive is a bit of a stretch. The jury is still out on that. I hope you are right. But I am not ready to predict MASSIVE growth.

Gary

[garyshell]

I can't believe that you don't think OW racing/The IRL is in a much better position than it was a year ago.

I agree, and would ask Bob Riebe, how was AOWR better off last year? I can think of no measure by which that would be true.

Gary

[SarahFan]

True. But the point is in a tough market the IRL is going up, not down. It is poised for massive growth in the next few years.

it didn't go up..... and it realistically couldn't have gotten worse


Honesty people

[downtowndeco]

Poised for growth I am willing to agree to, but massive is a bit of a stretch. The jury is still out on that. I hope you are right. But I am not ready to predict MASSIVE growth.

Gary

I say massive because there is so much room to grow. More races. Grandstands to fill. Ratings to rise. Maybe I'm being a tad bit optimistic but I don't think so. Time will tell. at least it's all under one roof now. Cheers.

[Bob Riebe]

I say massive because there is so much room to grow. More races. Grandstands to fill. Ratings to rise. Maybe I'm being a tad bit optimistic but I don't think so. Time will tell. at least it's all under one roof now. Cheers.Here is where I really wonder just what you think is going to drive this growth.

All motorsports growing in the past was based on automobile concerns providing vehicles, power plants, tires, and every thing that makes a car go vroom.
THAT is gone, except in drag racing, and a lessor degree in sprint cars.

What is going to make it grow?
Do not give me NASCAR as an example as the late Bill Sr. spent decades setting up by draconian measures to get what he did, including the period now gone, he had, when drivers drove damn near anything on wheels, so were know across every racing genre.

[Rex Monaco]

It is poised for massive growth in the next few years.

After it's massive downfall the past 12 years, I sure hope it's growth is massive. It might just get back to where it was.

But I don't expect to see very real growth until the 2nd or 3rd year under the new rules.

Next year will be a better measure of it's growth, as this years growth could easily be accounted for by CCWS fans coming to it's ranks.

[Chris R]

If starting fro the bottom is good, Lehman Brothers could be poised for growth too....

I agree about the potential - but I do not think good potential necessarily means it will happen. Also, realistically, since it happened, that potential was there last year too.....

Fundamentally, these are the same people (a combination of IRL,CART,CCWS & USAC folks) who pretty much ran the sport into the ground - they are just organized a little different. This is a very incestuous sport and the attitudes are not that much different than 50 years ago. I have my doubts as to the ability and desire of the powers that be to make AOWR the "top dog" as much as to protect their various fiefdoms...

Also, despite the merger(or maybe because of it) - too many people seem to have lost track of the fact that the core product has some real problems that need to be addressed before AOWR is out of the proverbial woods....

To me, the merger is a bit like the DP-01 was last year - a great idea and a good step but not nearly the panacea everyone thought it would be...

So, the potential is tremendous and I really hope it is fulfilled - but until some of that potential is realized it is hard to say the sport is significantly better off....

[Wilf]

Also, despite the merger(or maybe because of it) - too many people seem to have lost track of the fact that the core product has some real problems that need to be addressed before AOWR is out of the proverbial woods....

Not challenging, just wondering what you believe to be the problems with the core product

[PA Rick]

Last year there were still two more races at this trime. This year we are watching NASCAR.

[Jacques]

The difference is CART went BK. CCWS went BK. The IRL is still in business and holding steady. That is all of the difference in the world.

Solid long term TV contract. 26/27 cars on the grid. Most races returning. All races paying a sanctioing fee (no self promotes). Danica. Foyt. Andretti. Castroneves. Weldon. Dario is back. One series.

And an average tv rating barely better, but headed down, than a bankrupt series.
1. Solid long term tv deal. Ask the NHL how good that deal was for them.
2. Most races are returning and are paying a fee. But is anyone watching them ?
3. Who are those drivers ?
4. One series, that like hockey, is headed to an average 0.2 rating on tv.
5. Holding steady ? It cannot even hold on to its tv partner or to its champions.

If you call that "growth" or "being better off," then go ahead and do so.

[indycool]

Starter, OT, but is your tagline from Smokey Stover, the old linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs? I knew him once upon a time.

[Jacques]

While in some ways downtown may be a bit to much of a cheerleader, this one point is telling. CC had promoters bailing left and right, or doing it themselves to try and get into or keep a market because no one else would. The IRL has people paying them to be able to put on a race. Granted, not as large fees as the glory days of CART, but getting paid non the less. It means that someone for each of their races thinks it's worth the risk to pony up the front money to do it.

That is true; but, every year, they pay less and less.
The difference between Indy and CC is the I500. Without it, they are just as bad and in the same dire straits. Even with it, Indy is just barely above where CC was a few years ago. All Indy has done is to slow down the rate of the fall. Even the tv deal is now resembling CC's.

That is the writing on the wall that Indy fans refuse to see. You are copying everything CART did and are reaping the same terrible results - and, yet, you call that growth.

Open Wheel needed fixing, but neither the IRL nor Unification was the solution. So, no, OW is NOT better off today than it was last year.

[indycool]

Link on them "every year, paying less and less?" When you consider no self-promotes and no co-promotes, I reckon the IRL isn't going anyplace for free, like CART and CC were, or at its own nickel.

And of COURSE the link is the Indy 500. Without the Indy 500, there would be no Indy cars. CART and CC both found that out. In the earlier years of the split, CART really didn't have bad schedules other than driving ovals away. As it drifted apart from Indy, and drifted away from ovals, it drifted away. Adding road courses? It's a lot more attractive to add road courses to Indy than to add road courses to Portland.

"Blendification" ISN'T the whole solution. It's the first step toward a solution. But as I indicated earlier, IMO, for some there will not be any solution.

[downtowndeco]

Open Wheel needed fixing, but neither the IRL nor Unification was the solution. So, no, OW is NOT better off today than it was last year.

Hey I know. Why don't you find a few billionaires and start a new OW series called "CART Champions" or something? That's just what the world needs. Seriously. It can be all street, or part street, part, part rc, or part street, part rc, part oval. The only thing you can't have though is the Indy 500. Other than that though it's a great idea.

[garyshell]

Poised for growth I am willing to agree to, but massive is a bit of a stretch. The jury is still out on that. I hope you are right. But I am not ready to predict MASSIVE growth.

Gary


I say massive because there is so much room to grow. More races. Grandstands to fill. Ratings to rise. Maybe I'm being a tad bit optimistic but I don't think so. Time will tell. at least it's all under one roof now. Cheers.


I guess I still have a problem with saying they are poised for massive growth. I agree that they are most assuredly poised for growth, and I agree that there is, as you put it, much room for growth. The part I have trouble with is that I don't think they are poised to immediately capitalize on that "much room for growth". I think this is going to be a series of baby steps. I don't see any massive leap. But maybe I am reading more into your statement than you intended, as there was no indication of time line in what you wrote.

Gary

[garyshell]

Last year there were still two more races at this trime. This year we are watching NASCAR.


And more importantly the NFL. Which is precisely WHY the season is now over. A decsion was made, correctly I think, that they didn't want to go head to head with Sunday Football.

Gary

[indycool]

Obviously.....since NASCAR was blowing up Phoenix, Fontana and others for the IRL with a fall schedule against NASCAR, watch NASCAR's ratings against football drop, too. Think it was a good move for the IRL to end the season before football got going. (In fact, I watched the Colts instead of NASCAR Sunday).

[garyshell]

And an average tv rating barely better, but headed down, than a bankrupt series.
1. Solid long term tv deal. Ask the NHL how good that deal was for them.
2. Most races are returning and are paying a fee. But is anyone watching them ?
3. Who are those drivers ?
4. One series, that like hockey, is headed to an average 0.2 rating on tv.
5. Holding steady ? It cannot even hold on to its tv partner or to its champions.

If you call that "growth" or "being better off," then go ahead and do so.


They told their tv "partner" to take a hike. The offer ESPN was not very good and the treatment that ICS has gotten from them is abysmal at best. As to their Champions, you might want to look agian, this years is staying and last years is coming back. And I am betting the third is wishing he could come back as he looks to be having no fun where he is.

Gary

[nigelred5]

And an average tv rating barely better, but headed down, than a bankrupt series.
1. Solid long term tv deal. Ask the NHL how good that deal was for them.
2. Most races are returning and are paying a fee. But is anyone watching them ?
3. Who are those drivers ?
4. One series, that like hockey, is headed to an average 0.2 rating on tv.
5. Holding steady ? It cannot even hold on to its tv partner or to its champions.

If you call that "growth" or "being better off," then go ahead and do so.

Well, in defense of Hornish and Dario, What more did they have to accomplish in Indycars, especially leading into a season of relative uncertainty? Without the merger, which happened long after each had made a decision to switch to NASCAR for this season. The IRL wasn't in a whole lot better shape than CCWS was without the mergification. Dario was shell shocked after doing his best hang gliding imitations on track, and was clearly burnt out on AGR and Indycars. Dario said he was burnt out on Indycars and that he wasn't paid any more in NASCAR than he was in Indycars. Frankly, it looked like he is still a bit burnt out in that interview, but It sounded like he had been having a bit of fun this weekend.

Hornish was given his best opportunity to go to NASCAR as well, and INDYCAR was realistically looking at a 12-16 car field short on events, long on drivers not belonging in a race car of any sorts, and in a league in the last year of a TV contract.
Weldon is staying, Dixon is staying, Dario is returning. I think the verdict is still out on the success/ failure of the past season, but the biggest hurdle is finally gone and so are the excuses. I won't be suprised to see the departure of one, possibly two teams from this season for political and financial reasons.

Wall Street is going to have a larger effect on the coming seasons than anything happening at 16th and Georgetown, and for that reason alone, I don't expect a whole lot of change next year.

[garyshell]

Open Wheel needed fixing, but neither the IRL nor Unification was the solution.


Ok then what is?

Gary

[indycool]

I'd like to let Gary's question stand as it is because I'd be interested in hearing what cynical answers might result.

But THERE IS NO MICROWAVE. There are many, many elements that hafta come together in small pieces to grow anything. You just don't plant a tomato plant and pick 20 tomatoes off it the next day.

Blendification was the first clear step toward growing the sport. There are many elements left to go.

There are some here who would say the Red Sox shortstop went 0-4 today and the Red Sox lost by a run, so the shortstop should be released or the Red Sox will never win again. Reality dictates otherwise.

[Chris R]

Not challenging, just wondering what you believe to be the problems with the core product

Honestly, I do not know - but it has been apparent for a while that neither flavor of AOWR (CCWS or IRL) is exactly what the marketplace is looking for....

The techno-geeky race fan in me want more horsepower, more open rules, more exciting cars. Bu the realist in me says that might not be what the casual fan wants.

The promotion and TV product has been sub-par (again, in both series) for at least 5 years. There have been efforts - but they need to do way better...

For several years in both series the driver promotion has been lacking - the IRL has been better - but again - they just are nto good enough with it. Same can be said of sponsor activation/value....

Overall, in a world of many entertainment options, AOWR in general has just not been up to the task and needs to improve dramatically - since AOWR is basically selling its core racing product - it must need to improve the product as well as improve its interaction with the fans, drivers, team and business community/sponsors....

That being said, I have no solid answers and am personally reasonably happy with the product myself....

[downtowndeco]

I guess I still have a problem with saying they are poised for massive growth. I agree that they are most assuredly poised for growth, and I agree that there is, as you put it, much room for growth. The part I have trouble with is that I don't think they are poised to immediately capitalize on that "much room for growth". I think this is going to be a series of baby steps. I don't see any massive leap. But maybe I am reading more into your statement than you intended, as there was no indication of time line in what you wrote.

Gary

Sorry, you are right. I'm thinking that in 2 to 5 years the IRL will be in a much better place than it is now. Without getting into every lame cliche, think about Japan (or Germany) after WWII. Then think of them now. Even 5 years after the war things were looking very different.

The dust is still clearing. The basic product is a good one. Cars that are faster than NASCAR (by a bunch). Diverse circuits. The Indy 500. Name drivers. Tinker w/the cars a bit. Get another mfg. or two in. Give it a little time. Things will look pretty good in a few years.

[nanders]

And more importantly the NFL. Which is precisely WHY the season is now over. A decsion was made, correctly I think, that they didn't want to go head to head with Sunday Football.

Gary

Us poor Kansas City Chiefs fans would sure enjoy about 15 more IndyCar races this season.


Ok then what is?

Gary

I don't think there is a formula for success anymore. The window of opportunity to bring a new/old motor sport formula to prominence appears to have closed. The last 2 years that I have been at the Kansas Speedway, I was blown away by how many elderly men that were there. As these guys die off where will the IndyCar fans come from.

With that said, if I ran IndyCay, my formula would be:

1. Introduce a new method of propulsion for the cars.
1a. Run 850 HP cars until the new propulsion is ready.
2. Open development up for the new propulsion types.
3. "Nopi Chicks" for "Grid Girls."
4. Get off the 1 1/2 mile bore fest type tracks.
5. Build a new version of Nazareth near a big city.
6. Introduce a 4 to 6 race winter league/series, ran on one or two different Southern 1 mile flat ovals .... even if you have to build them. Let the fans bus tour in. It works for Branson and that's some mighty weak entertainment value there.

OR

Introduce a formula based upon the 1995 formula.

AND

Hire 20 multi-language "copy writers" and video clip producers - creating Internet and traditional news content for world wide distribution .... daily .... even in the off season.

AND

Don't let Surfers fall off the schedule no matter what.

[garyshell]

Us poor Kansas City Chiefs fans would sure enjoy about 15 more IndyCar races this season.

Don't cry to me. I live in Cincinnati, home of the... wait for it.... Bungles.



I don't think there is a formula for success anymore. The window of opportunity to bring a new/old motor sport formula to prominence appears to have closed. The last 2 years that I have been at the Kansas Speedway, I was blown away by how many elderly men that were there. As these guys die off where will the IndyCar fans come from.

With that said, if I ran IndyCay, my formula would be:

1. Introduce a new method of propulsion for the cars.
1a. Run 850 HP cars until the new propulsion is ready.
2. Open development up for the new propulsion types.
3. "Nopi Chicks" for "Grid Girls."
4. Get off the 1 1/2 mile bore fest type tracks.
5. Build a new version of Nazareth near a big city.
6. Introduce a 4 to 6 race winter league/series, ran on one or two different Southern 1 mile flat ovals .... even if you have to build them. Let the fans bus tour in. It works for Branson and that's some mighty weak entertainment value there.

OR

Introduce a formula based upon the 1995 formula.

AND

Hire 20 multi-language "copy writers" and video clip producers - creating Internet and traditional news content for world wide distribution .... daily .... even in the off season.

AND

Don't let Surfers fall off the schedule no matter what.

I see nothing wrongs with any and all of those ideas!

Gary

[Chris R]

I think the early end to the season is a terrible thing. I do not care one iota about football - so they should do it my way :D

Seriously, Fall racing is AWESOME. You cannot afford to fall off the radar screen for so long and the hardcore fans are missing out on good product.... i know the NFL is king - but who cares - AOWR needs to do its thing and do it well - perhaps do Saturdays in the Fall or as nanders suggested do a short winter series perhaps in place of winter testing...

One thing I am sure of, if the IRL decides it is second tier to anything, regardless of the truth of the matter, they will be and stepping aside for football season only gives the message that the IRL knows it is whipped.....

[indycool]

Chris, it'd be interesting to hear what you think the IRL should do to promote better. Danica in general and Helio on Dancing with the Stars were huge off-season hits for the series. Wheldon's residence in St. Pete has led to him being referred to as a local by the papers down there. Helio and Kanaan are well-known in Miami. There have been numerous sponsor activations with various contests and outlets such as GoDaddy and Peak and Motorola with Danica. At Infineon, Davey Hamilton drove an Oakland A's pitcher to a ballpark in the two-seater, something coordinated by both the promoter and the IRL. The blendification brought larger, more appropriate fields. The Indycar.com website has news and notes almost every day. Autograph sessions are frequent. Many of the drivers appeared at the MotoGP over the weekend at IMS. For several years, all 33 drivers have been flown to NYC for a luncheon before the "500." Smaller things, like the Brazilian drivers meeting with Brazilian fans in Indianapolis and Viso getting together with the Venezuelan community there. The Indy Lights field has been promoted.

Not really meant as a defense of the IRL or its race promoters but they haven't exactly been sitting on their cabooses over things which they CAN do. TV hasn't been quite right, so another deal is in place there. Will it be successful? What is successful? What is your idea of promotion?

nanders, 90,000-plus people attend the 1 1/2-mile "borefest" every year at Texas. Maybe you prefer Mid-Ohio or a street course like Detroit, but it's unlikely that those 90,000 care about THEM and might call them "borefests."

And the casual fan cares about the DRIVERS, not gobbledygook about rules. He wants to see Ryan Howard go yard in baseball, not want to know what kind of bat he used or what the ball is made of. He wants to see Peyton Manning hit Marvin Harrison on the slant, not what kind of strings hold together the shoulder pads of either of them.

[Chris R]

Chris, it'd be interesting to hear what you think the IRL should do to promote better. Danica in general and Helio on Dancing with the Stars were huge off-season hits for the series. Wheldon's residence in St. Pete has led to him being referred to as a local by the papers down there. Helio and Kanaan are well-known in Miami. There have been numerous sponsor activations with various contests and outlets such as GoDaddy and Peak and Motorola with Danica. At Infineon, Davey Hamilton drove an Oakland A's pitcher to a ballpark in the two-seater, something coordinated by both the promoter and the IRL. The blendification brought larger, more appropriate fields. The Indycar.com website has news and notes almost every day. Autograph sessions are frequent. Many of the drivers appeared at the MotoGP over the weekend at IMS. For several years, all 33 drivers have been flown to NYC for a luncheon before the "500." Smaller things, like the Brazilian drivers meeting with Brazilian fans in Indianapolis and Viso getting together with the Venezuelan community there. The Indy Lights field has been promoted.

Not really meant as a defense of the IRL or its race promoters but they haven't exactly been sitting on their cabooses over things which they CAN do. TV hasn't been quite right, so another deal is in place there. Will it be successful? What is successful? What is your idea of promotion?

nanders, 90,000-plus people attend the 1 1/2-mile "borefest" every year at Texas. Maybe you prefer Mid-Ohio or a street course like Detroit, but it's unlikely that those 90,000 care about THEM and might call them "borefests."

And the casual fan cares about the DRIVERS, not gobbledygook about rules. He wants to see Ryan Howard go yard in baseball, not want to know what kind of bat he used or what the ball is made of. He wants to see Peyton Manning hit Marvin Harrison on the slant, not what kind of strings hold together the shoulder pads of either of them.

Indycool - you are right - I know the effort is there - for whatever reason it is still not enough/ not getting the job done.... perhaps there is nothing else to do or perhaps people just don't care... for whatever reason, be it the "war" - or just the general attitude of the various powers that be over the years, AOWR (which is now solely the IRL) have a real problem being effective - if NASCAR did some of the things they have done it would be golden - but not so much of the IRL....

The Dancing with the Stars thing was a great coup - I suspect the Danica thing is back-firing a bit because she is probably over-hyped... I know they have tried to promote other drivers too - but it just has not caught on...

you are right about the drivers - although I think the casual fan also cares about the speed and thrill factor, it is just that so many "extreme" sports have stolen some of the thrill factor from racing....

The overly complex rules do seem to mire down the presentation of the sport - perhaps we need a return to the old - "if it fits inside this box it is legal" sort of mentality....

Anyway, I know they are trying and it is just frustrating to think that my sport is pretty much a "c" student at the moment....

[nanders]

nanders, 90,000-plus people attend the 1 1/2-mile "borefest" every year at Texas. Maybe you prefer Mid-Ohio or a street course like Detroit, but it's unlikely that those 90,000 care about THEM and might call them "borefests."

I'll explain better: At Kansas I went with 2 people that where not Indycar fans but had freebe tickets, but they wanted to go. I was doing my best to help them keep up with the action. The first thing that made it hard was the cars were so loud they couldn't hear the announcer or me. They did a good job of keeping up but as soon as the leaders started lapping the field my friends totally disconnected from the race, and wanted to leave. In fact even I, a "sophisticated" race goer could barely keep up with the action. I've been to dozens of IndyCar/CART races and never had such a problem keeping up with what was going on. Cars were strung out and the leaders were all mixed in with lappers. Not being able to here the announcer and poor timing and scoring hurts bad there. So I have taken a leap and said they (1 1/2 milers) are bore fest.


And the casual fan cares about the DRIVERS, not gobbledygook about rules.

When I got into IndyCar it was the '60's. Besides the race, the build up to the race in the newspapers was all about the technologies and the "new record." The 2 years the turbine cars were racing, it was all about the car and it's technology. That's one of the things that hooked me and it was definitely what got me hooked on formula one. It's all the extra little things, like keeping a score card in baseball, that will hook the casual fan and turn them into hardcore fans.


He wants to see Peyton Manning hit Marvin Harrison on the slant, not what kind of strings hold together the shoulder pads of either of them.

I have no idea who these people are ;)

[garyshell]

The Dancing with the Stars thing was a great coup - I suspect the Danica thing is back-firing a bit because she is probably over-hyped...

I think this has a lot more to do with the difference in their personalities than how much she has been hyped. Helio has a smile on his face even when being ambushed by Jack Artue's microphone after his blocking penalty. Danica's antics of stomping down pit lane, or getting in folks faces or her reported demeanor with fans, or shifting blame etc. hasn't helped her cause.

Gary

[garyshell]

I'll explain better: At Kansas I went with 2 people that where not Indycar fans but had freebe tickets, but they wanted to go. I was doing my best to help them keep up with the action. The first thing that made it hard was the cars were so loud they couldn't hear the announcer or me. They did a good job of keeping up but as soon as the leaders started lapping the field my friends totally disconnected from the race, and wanted to leave. In fact even I, a "sophisticated" race goer could barely keep up with the action. I've been to dozens of IndyCar/CART races and never had such a problem keeping up with what was going on. Cars were strung out and the leaders were all mixed in with lappers. Not being able to here the announcer and poor timing and scoring hurts bad there.


WOW!!! This sounds EXACTLY like my trip to the Kentucky Speedway. I had some GREAT comp tickets and took my nephew, his wife and their two kids. They were excited to go. But quickly became bored when they could no longer tell "who's leading", despite my wife (as avid a race fan as me) and I tried our best to keep them up to date. The PA there SUCKS. The only freakin' speakers on on tall poles in the damn infield. Hello? Anyone home? The fans are WAY across the track. I hope the new owners do something to the PA and install some sort of "scoreboard".

I take this same family to Mid Ohio and they are able to see a large sign with the leaders posted and there are speakers on poles all around the track that you can actually hear.

Little thinks like this mean a lot, especially to the more casual fans.

Gary

[Jacques]

Link on them "every year, paying less and less?" When you consider no self-promotes and no co-promotes, I reckon the IRL isn't going anyplace for free, like CART and CC were, or at its own nickel.

And of COURSE the link is the Indy 500. Without the Indy 500, there would be no Indy cars. CART and CC both found that out. In the earlier years of the split, CART really didn't have bad schedules other than driving ovals away. As it drifted apart from Indy, and drifted away from ovals, it drifted away. Adding road courses? It's a lot more attractive to add road courses to Indy than to add road courses to Portland.

"Blendification" ISN'T the whole solution. It's the first step toward a solution. But as I indicated earlier, IMO, for some there will not be any solution.

But, an all oval IRL did nothing for OW, even with Indy.
A 2 road race IRL, like Nascar, did nothing better.
Making the IRL almost 50% road racing has done nothing either.
Even Indy is not what Indy used to be.

At some point you'll have to accept the fact that the issue is deeper than just CART's or CC's existence.

Now, the first step has not done much in its first year. On top of that, there is no Title sponsor and Indy now has to accept any tv deal offered to it - instead of demanding one from ABC, as it used to in the past.

CART was destroyed. It makes no sense to offer, 13 years later, for CART to be resurrected with TG in control as the "solution."

Just because some people are not being blinded by "wishful thinking," it does not mean that we are bitter, etc.

[Jacques]

Hey I know. Why don't you find a few billionaires and start a new OW series called "CART Champions" or something? That's just what the world needs. Seriously. It can be all street, or part street, part, part rc, or part street, part rc, part oval. The only thing you can't have though is the Indy 500. Other than that though it's a great idea.
So, is it ok then if TG does the same thing ?
You seem to believe that people will come back just because you have Indy.
It has not happened in 13 years, what makes you think it will happen in the future ?

Waiting or wishing for Nascar to implode cannot possibly be your "plan."

[indycool]

Reply to all:

Chris, that is a very reasonable response and I agree that, as times have changed, Indy car racing has had to stay virtually the same. People came to Indy to hear Tom Carnegie yell, "It's a new track record." We aren't going to hear that any more because of intentional slowdown for safety reasons. As NASCAR emerged in the '50s and '60s and '70s, they took the 500-mile distance to copy Indy to many different tracks. And as you mentioned, there are wild extreme sports -- WWF has grown wildly -- that are now in the mix for the thrills.

nanders, from my own background in the stands over the years at Nashville, Kentucky and Chicagoland a few times, I've found what you say to be partially true. In each case, I was seated with a group of NASCAR fans around me. After they said, "wow, your guys go FAST!", they kept asking questions for help in keeping track of the leaders. My experience differed in that they were excited and enjoyed it, even though they needed to ask 100 questions. By midway through the race, they pretty much "got it." It's not much different than a NASCAR race goes with lapped cars, etc....it just goes faster than a NASCAR fan expects.

Gary, I agree that EVERY track should have a state-of-the-art scoreboard that EVERYONE in attendance can see. But I don't know what anyone's going to do about PA systems....I haven't heard a thing on PA during a race lately at ANY track unless it's under caution. Back when I was a young 'un going to Indy with my dad, he kept a transistor radio (remember those? :) ) glued to his ear for the radio broadcast to be able to tell us what was going on that we couldn't see.

And Jacques, indeed, there was a marked, visible increase in attendance at Indy this year. As I've said earlier, ONE SERIES is the start of any resurrection, not a one-year microwave.

[Jacques]

Ok then what is?

Gary
If I had the answer, I'd sell it to Indy for a lot of $$$$$$

But, unfortunately, all I read are comments based on wishful thinking about how things are going to grow and eventually be the "way it used to be."

What evidence is shown that things are going to grow ? Other than "wishes," not one iota of evidence has been shown to make anyone accept the "growth" premise.

You can wrap your arms around each other and convince yourselves that "things are going to be ok," while making fun of anyone who does not share your optimism, but it does not mean that things are or that they will be better.

Is CART II, with TG in control, the solution ?

[downtowndeco]

So, is it ok then if TG does the same thing ?
You seem to believe that people will come back just because you have Indy.
It has not happened in 13 years, what makes you think it will happen in the future ?

Waiting or wishing for Nascar to implode cannot possibly be your "plan."

The Indy 500 is still the largest single day sporting event in the world. The IRL is still in business. They have a new long term TV contract. 25/27 cars will take the grid in the spring. 33 will start the 500. The champions are all coming back. The teams are staying. The events are all (except Nashville) returning. No San Jose's or Las Vegas (or Phoenix) fiasco's on the horizon.

Attempts to paint the IRL w/the same brush as CCWS & CART are pointless.

[Cart750hp]

If I had the answer, I'd sell it to Indy for a lot of $$$$$$ ....means you don't know.


But, unfortunately, all I read are comments based on wishful thinking about how things are going to grow and eventually be the "way it used to be."

Maybe it will be better, maybe not. The whole point of looking forward in this one series is because there is only one left AOWR. Stop coming up with negative ideas why you don't think this will be a great series because not until you tell us what is the other option is, you guys are just bashing IRL like ever been. Let's be realistic now, tell me another option, a realistic option to save AOWR and not IRL.


What evidence is shown that things are going to grow ? Other than "wishes," not one iota of evidence has been shown to make anyone accept the "growth" premise.

Obviously you haven't been watching IndyCar races since CC teams finally joined IRL.


You can wrap your arms around each other and convince yourselves that "things are going to be ok," while making fun of anyone who does not share your optimism, but it does not mean that things are or that they will be better.

Is CART II, with TG in control, the solution ?

Again, what is your solution? I guarantee, you don't have one.

Let me make it easier for you former fanatics out there. Bunch of you grew up hating the IRL so I won't be surprised if you'd still hate it today:

CC and CART folded and gone. Teams, drivers, and the crew joined IRL who got the potential of making this series great again. Since CC guys joined IndyCar, there has been great races and sponsor announcements than 2 years in CC. That's a plus. The grid and the competition got even better, don't you think? Wait for next year. You have the I500 that CC ever wanted on their schedule and add Long Beach, Toronto etc...man it's about darn time. Now, if you don't see this a potential then please feel free to point me right now what is the other option...the other AOWR who would save the sport?

Same time last year, there were too many CC management promises all came apart starting December. And year after year, CC did this to themselves and finally came back to bite them. I support those teams who switched from CC to IRL because they all knew they had one way of surviving....Indy500. Look at the team owners who didn't swtiched....they are just like the fanatics! If I see Forsythe and Gentilozzi in IRL next year, I'll be laughing my butt off.

[Bob Riebe]

Here is where I really wonder just what you think is going to drive this growth.

All motorsports growing in the past was based on automobile concerns providing vehicles, power plants, tires, and every thing that makes a car go vroom.
THAT is gone, except in drag racing, and a lessor degree in sprint cars.

What is going to make it grow?
Do not give me NASCAR as an example as the late Bill Sr. spent decades setting up by draconian measures to get what he did, including the period now gone, he had, when drivers drove damn near anything on wheels, so were know across every racing genre.
I asked a very simple question above and the response was silence.

So if you think it is going to grow or is truly better now than it was, give me the reasons; I said what its lackings are, now give me the reasons I am wrong.

[Cart750hp]

I asked a very simple question above and the response was silence.

Was it silence or was it simply you ignore the answers? Gary, Mark, IC and the rests....we've been saying the same thing over and over about 5 pages now. Yet, you still don't get it.

[quote="Bob Riebe"]So if you think it is going to grow or is truly better now than it was, give me the reasons]

That's two questions there.

My answer to your first one:
1) Based on how the past twelve years of CC and IRL against each other, this year showed one series is better than two. How? Competition gotten better, lies dropped, car count stayed over than 24, manufacturers are "really" talking about joining the series, sponsors have gone up, TV ratings better than when there were two series, schedule is much better than the way CC was, or the way IRL was.....with I500, Long Beach, Chicago, Edmonton, St. Pete.....good racing. More schedule to be added as years goes on. Not a positive to you, then tell me what is one thing you see this year better off than with CC in the past 4 years?

My answer to your secone question:
1)You are simply using the things that this less than one year old unified series still didn't finish or get it together in a short period of time and for you, that it's a negative thing? A reason enough for you to argue that this series won't be a successful one? Within the past 5 stupid years of lies and deception from CC management, you never used that as a bad sign for the series. Along with the sponsorship leaving, rent-a-ride per race, desperation move of Katherine Legge, owners getting sued, schedule getting cancelled every year.....did you see that in the first year of this series together? Let me know. We are probably watching two different series out there.

[Cart750hp]

First I have followed your postings for a while and I recognize you are an old CC-only guy that has wanted nothing to do with any unification involving IRL control. That was my position years ago but as time wore on I realized there had to be one series and that series must contain the I500. So I know you are not going to give any credit for this series now as being "better off".

First I have not seen any definitive, accurate numbers other than historically unreliable message board postings that indicate TV ratings and attenance are down. A few number have been bandied about her that at best indicate a small movement up or down. But compare that to NASCAR where attendance and/or TV ratings are down up to 15%. Even a 'no change' in ratings or attendance is better off versus that, no ?

Yes, as you say " the unification could have happened by joining the IRL to CC.". That is not what happened, so don't dwell on the hypothetical, please dwell upon the actual case, and as such is an "off topic" post subject.

Your comment "Or maybe, TG could have given control to someone who knows what she is doing. " Same thing - a hypothetical that did not hapen and is "off topic". Don't live in a dream world, son, live in the real world. Life isn't about 'what happens' it is about 'what you do about what happens'.

You then wrote "That "opportunity" was always there." NO- Not true. The opportunity for two competing OW racing series in the same locale, competing for sponsors, tracks, TV stations, fans in seats, fans on tube, etc... to each grow and prosper was NOT there (by the actual results).

Finally you state " If no one wants to buy Betamax tapes, does it matter if only one company, instead of three, is selling Betamax ?" This is some kind of non-sequiter analogy that I don't understand - I think it means you think that no-one wants open wheel racing at all. On this we must disagree.

CCWS after CART failed, deal with it - and if you cannot see that OW racing in America is better off now than it was a year ago, especially in today's uncertain economy, you need to open your eyes to the "big picture".


PS- DD, your comments are 'spot on'.

Hey Starter, this post from SoCalPVguy should be printed out and put it a very expensive gold frame. This guy got it good.

BTW, SoCalPVguy, if you keep posting stuff like this, I may treat you for a breakfast down at the Original Pancake House...you know where that is.

[ShiftingGears]

Tony George is still in charge, so it isn't that much better off.

[indycool]

ug, you can focus mindless grumping on Tony George all you want in the true CW spirit of contempt, but we don't buy tickets to see Jim Irsay own the Indianapolis Colts or Roger Goodell act as commissioner of the NFL. We buy tickets to see Peyton Manning throw passes to Marvin Harrison.

[Rex Monaco]

Post-op is usually better than pre-op, but that is no guaruntee of the patients survival. The patient could have a negative reaction to the ongoing treatment or the doctor could make a fatal mistake.

So yes AOWR is better than last year, because the patient had been dying for 12 years and something, anything, had to be done.

But is AOWR better now than before the split? Not by any measure known to modern man.

And yet some people claim the IRL and/or TG were a success or they some how won some grand prize. In that vein, then so is the now blind man who survived the refinery explosion.

[downtowndeco]

Post-op is usually better than pre-op, but that is no guaruntee of the patients survival. The patient could have a negative reaction to the ongoing treatment or the doctor could make a fatal mistake.

So yes AOWR is better than last year, because the patient had been dying for 12 years and something, anything, had to be done.

But is AOWR better now than before the split? Not by any measure known to modern man.

And yet some people claim the IRL and/or TG were a success or they some how won some grand prize. In that vein, then so is the now blind man who survived the refinery explosion.


You're forgetting something when your harken back to the "good old days" of OW racing when, in your eyes, all was well.

The problem with your look back is IT WASN'T GOING TO LAST.

CART was on a one way track to nowhere once they went public. It is commonly accepted knowledge that CART/CCWS management shot itself in the foot so many times that that it didn't have any feet left. Because CART/CCWS was run so crappy it was going out of business sooner or later anyway, without any help from TG or the IRL.

So yeah, it was a good thing the IRL was formed. Without it there may well be no OW racing in the U.S.

[downtowndeco]

dup post

[Chris R]

Do you think that CART would have gone public without the split (just speculation, I know). I thought it was mostly a reaction to the split to, depending on your point of view etc, #1. Raise capital to compete with the IRL or #2 Provide a golden parachute for Penske, Ganassi etc.

I agree, once they went public it was only a matter of time...

Also, the ineptitude that was in CART was also in USAC and the AAA before them. Fundamentally AOWR has been run by one big continuous fraternity with occasional upheaval and name changes since WW2. Even CART and the IRL and CCWS had a fairly incestuous relationship with people moving back and forth... Anyway, my point is, there is a lot more in common between CCWS and the IRL and their progenitors than anyone seems to care to admit and they shared/share many of the same problems and weaknesses....

[SarahFan]

ug, you can focus mindless grumping on Tony George all you want in the true CW spirit of contempt, but we don't buy tickets to see Jim Irsay own the Indianapolis Colts or Roger Goodell act as commissioner of the NFL. We buy tickets to see Peyton Manning throw passes to Marvin Harrison.


you spent 7 years and thousands... maybe tens of thousands of posts questioning the leadership of CART and CC


and now discount the importance of Tony George's

telling

[SarahFan]

So yeah, it was a good thing the IRL was formed. Without it there may well be no OW racing in the U.S.

I cannot believe folks posts garbage like the above and expect to be taken even remotely serios

[SoCalPVguy]

Another piece of evidence that OWR is "better off" than last year. From "Indy car dot com" - no manufactuer except Honda was interested in IRL alone last year and no manufacturer period was interested in CCWS alone.

IRL has 2nd meeting with 5 engine manufacturers Indy Racing League officials and prospective manufacturers of the next generation of IndyCar Series engine retired from Round 2 of discussions Sept. 17 with homework assignments due in six weeks. The sanctioning body has targeted introduction of new engine and chassis specifications for the 2011 IndyCar Series season -- the 100th anniversary of the Indianapolis 500 - with a desire for multiple manufacturer participation in the engine program. Dallara will be the sole supplier of the chassis, which also is currently on the drawing board.


"We had a couple of good days of meetings with (five) manufacturers back in town in a continuation of the process begun in late June with the initial roundtable," said Brian Barnhart, the Indy Racing League's president of competition and operations, who noted that this round of talks purposely did not include engine rebuild shop representatives who were present at the initial roundtable.


"We're very encouraged again by their participation and enthusiasm about potentially joining the series. We clearly went in to more specifics than in our June meeting and made a lot of progress toward defining the potential specs for 2011, and were encouraged by the fact that they're all very much interested in continuing this process."
The timeline for defining a spec and receiving a commitment from manufacturers to replace the workhorse Honda Indy V8, which has been the stalwart sole power plant for the IndyCar Series since 2006, remains the end of the calendar year. That would allow proper lead time for design/development and manufacturing for full-scale testing in 2010. Honda was one of the five manufacturers represented at the latest meetings in Indianapolis.


Barnhart said there's a consensus on about 70 percent of the package. That's where the homework assignments come in -- to arrive at answers that completely satisfy all entities in regards to the performance levels the sanctioning body is expecting on the variety pack of oval and street/road courses well beyond 2011.
"There are so many aspects to it; we're still looking at areas that would be open and closed for development and the homologation period," Barnhart said. "We haven't completely defined what the RPM would be, that kind of stuff.


"The homework assignments for the engine manufacturers are to make sure they have a comfort level with the power required to meet those performance levels in addition to the durability requirements and cost parameters we're looking for. We're going to work with Dallara and Firestone in terms of the chassis and tire portion of the package to see what can be done in terms of grip levels, downforce and drag levels to create the performance levels we're looking for.


"That's really where it goes to. If the performance levels can be met that we're expecting combining chassis, tires and the horsepower levels, then we've settled on a spec. It's important for us to integrate all of it with the diverse schedule that we run."
Individual follow-up conference calls will continue, with a third round of formal discussions tentatively scheduled for late October.

[SoCalPVguy]

BTW, SoCalPVguy, if you keep posting stuff like this, I may treat you for a breakfast down at the Original Pancake House...you know where that is.

Thank you. You are on. Drop me a note the next time you are going there. /G

[downtowndeco]

Do you think that CART would have gone public without the split (just speculation, I know). I thought it was mostly a reaction to the split to, depending on your point of view etc, #1. Raise capital to compete with the IRL or #2 Provide a golden parachute for Penske, Ganassi etc.

I agree, once they went public it was only a matter of time...




Yes, I think they would have gone public even if the IRL was never formed. These guys had huge egos and were full of themselves. Remember they were going to challenge F1? Turned down a good TV deal because they thought they were worth more? Didn't need the 500?

Again, it's a good thing TG formed the IRL or there might not be any OW racing.

[Chris R]

Yes, I think they would have gone public even if the IRL was never formed. These guys had huge egos and were full of themselves. Remember they were going to challenge F1? Turned down a good TV deal because they thought they were worth more? Didn't need the 500?

Again, it's a good thing TG formed the IRL or there might not be any OW racing.

you might be right - anybody else have a thought on this?

The fly in the ointment is that the cast of characters when CART went public is extraordinarily similar to the current cast of characters in the IRL with the exception of TG....

Methinks the only big "winners" in this situation were Penske and Ganassi with lesser winning roles played by Pat Patrick (nice retirement), Rahal, and some behind the scenes guys who I probably don't even know exist ;)

[downtowndeco]

you might be right - anybody else have a thought on this?

The fly in the ointment is that the cast of characters when CART went public is extraordinarily similar to the current cast of characters in the IRL with the exception of TG....

Methinks the only big "winners" in this situation were Penske and Ganassi with lesser winning roles played by Pat Patrick (nice retirement), Rahal, and some behind the scenes guys who I probably don't even know exist ;)


True, some of the same guys who had a hand in the downfall of CART ended up in the IRL. The difference is, and this is all of the difference in the world, they don't run the League. Like him or hate him, one guy is in charge of the IRL. A dictatorship always seems to work best in motorsports.

[Bob Riebe]

Was it silence or was it simply you ignore the answers? Gary, Mark, IC and the rests....we've been saying the same thing over and over about 5 pages now. Yet, you still don't get it.



That's two questions there.

My answer to your first one:
1) Based on how the past twelve years of CC and IRL against each other, this year showed one series is better than two. How? Competition gotten better, lies dropped, car count stayed over than 24, manufacturers are "really" talking about joining the series, sponsors have gone up, TV ratings better than when there were two series, schedule is much better than the way CC was, or the way IRL was.....with I500, Long Beach, Chicago, Edmonton, St. Pete.....good racing. More schedule to be added as years goes on. Not a positive to you, then tell me what is one thing you see this year better off than with CC in the past 4 years?

My answer to your secone question:
1)You are simply using the things that this less than one year old unified series still didn't finish or get it together in a short period of time and for you, that it's a negative thing? A reason enough for you to argue that this series won't be a successful one? Within the past 5 stupid years of lies and deception from CC management, you never used that as a bad sign for the series. Along with the sponsorship leaving, rent-a-ride per race, desperation move of Katherine Legge, owners getting sued, schedule getting cancelled every year.....did you see that in the first year of this series together? Let me know. We are probably watching two different series out there.
There was (is including yours) not one single answer other than some sort of rather childish whishful thinking, based on nothing except hope.

Therer were/are hard/hardware reasons that open wheel racing suceeded up into the nineties that ANY ONE who followed the world of automobiles could understand quite easily; hundreds of pages in multi-automobile magazines about the vehicles and there components; hundreds of more pages in automobile magazines as drivers crossed series borders; therefore interlinking near ALL SERIES so as to publicize all, at once, and make the automobile & automobile components manufactures interested in investing in competition to market their wares, including sub-components such as fuel, tires, oil, camshafts, blowers, cylinder heads etc.
The more that was spent on automobile racing the more coverage it got; the more coverage it got the more was spent to be covered by automobile journals.
These gentlemen spent the money and put in the time that made open wheel racing, and racing period, a headliner in the pages of automobile journals and the hearts and minds of automotive ethusiasts world wide.

That is GONE, now give me some intelligent reasons beyond wishful thinking that it is getting better, and HOW plus WHY, that does not merely amount to hopeful flatulance.

[Rex Monaco]

I don't think anyone here has claimed it's better off than before the split. That would be nonsense.

So is this nonsense?


So yeah, it was a good thing the IRL was formed. Without it there may well be no OW racing in the U.S.

[garyshell]

What evidence is shown that things are going to grow ?


What "evidence" can ever be presented to show that something is going to happen in the future? By definition evidence is about things that HAVE happened. So the only extrapolation of evidence to future endeavors is ALWAYS based on hope or conjecture.

Gary

[garyshell]

All motorsports growing in the past was based on automobile concerns providing vehicles, power plants, tires, and every thing that makes a car go vroom.


I asked a very simple question above and the response was silence.

So if you think it is going to grow or is truly better now than it was, give me the reasons; I said what its lackings are, now give me the reasons I am wrong.


Silence because the basis for your inital question was false. Motorsports growth was never based on automobile concerns, it was based on Madison Ave. dollars.

Gary

[Jacques]

....means you don't know.

Maybe it will be better, maybe not. .

In other words : wishful thinking.

Where is the evidence ? I fail to understand why your comments are looked upon gracefully, but other people's comments are looked with suspicion or with a semi "Dr Phil analysis."

Other than wishful thinking, what else do you and the others have ?

[Cart750hp]

There was (is including yours) not one single answer other than some sort of rather childish whishful thinking, based on nothing except hope.

Hope? Jeez, this one series is bound to fail or for success.....most people believed it's heading for success. You happen to be on the other side stuck believe it will fail. Everyone here stated why they believe it will be a succesful one yet you still ignoring it and calling it wishful thinking. I think this is as far as for me can go explaining it to you why we believe so. Like they say, "You can't change an old man's point of view by reasons. The old man must admit reasons to change his own views".

[quote="Bob Riebe"]Therer were/are hard/hardware reasons that open wheel racing suceeded up into the nineties that ANY ONE who followed the world of automobiles could understand quite easily]

Sorry to say, but you really are stuck in the 80's and 90's. AOWR been hurt in the past 12 years because of money and trusts from fans and sponsors. Now that it's unified, we'll, all is having a hardtime catching up because sponsorships are under economic problems too. Money is not easy anymore nowadays. However, TG did something that CC management tried later but it failed when they were reviving CC. This first year, TG did not cut any money for this series and not wasted money, instead he went and locked a TV deal, picking the right schedule at the moment, and speaking to future manufacturers. So put it this way, there's a great foundation of this series because of I500 and the Hulmans. This is something that CC never had and would never get. And they all find out the hardway.

What we have now (IRL) is the reality. This is all what the "old" IndyCar has left. Let me tell you this, it could fail or it could be another great series but this is the only AOWR option there is out there. With two series together, this exactly what TG been fighting for. Give it to him and let him groom it for us. CC teams and the IRL teams racing in Long Beach, Indy500, Edmonton, Chicago, this is what we've all been waiting to see. So if you are a fan of AOWR, feel free to support and stop staring at the "what if" but "what is". I've said my part about TG when I was still a CC fan but as years shows that the series was failing, reality check!!

[Bob Riebe]

Silence because the basis for your inital question was false. Motorsports growth was never based on automobile concerns it was based on Madison Ave. dollars.

Gary
Hmmm, that is rather naive BS, race on sunday, sell on monday drove Detroit, in all series.
Oh that is right, Zora Duntov had the GS Corvettes built because they would make him SO MUCH MONEY.

Chevy built the IMSA Monza and used a Ford-Cosworth Indy, after their own engine was a dog, because it would make them SO MUCH MONEY without regard to the automobiles they sell.-- ROFLMAO.

That's right Detroit that kept racing going in the U.S. did not build CARS, they printed MONEY!

The privateer group of racers did it because they wanted to or as the old saying goes the best way to make a million dollars racing is to start with two million dollars.
The supposed Madison Ave. view is why motor sports is failing, no one gives a damn anymore, so no one shows up.

Try again young fella and give me one single reason that says, at this point it will not be more same old, same old.
I have NO FAITH in Mr. Athony George.

[downtowndeco]

So is this nonsense?


The basic premise CC fans have alway held is that TG is a nincompoop without enough brains to tie his shoes let alone run a racing series. Therefore any damage done to CART/CCWS was self inflicted because TG just wasn't smart enough to do any damage to CC.

That being said, CART was in trouble the moment it went public. One bad decision after another in just a matter of a few years.

Again. Yes, in the glory days of CART OW racing was much stronger than it is now. But it was living on borrowed time. It simply couldn't last being run the way it was & TG had the foresight to see that.

[Cart750hp]

I have NO FAITH in Mr. Athony George.

You should've said this on your first post in this thread so that saves us time and energy talking to you about "success and failure of this series". Not until you change you faith with TG, you'll have a hard-time expressing your opinion here. Just my 2cents.

BTW, IRL is not owned by Kevin Kalkhoven, Paul Gentilozzi, Gerald Forsythe and Dan Petit, to remind you.

[Bob Riebe]

Cart750:
The "nineties" was a WHOLE nine years ago; I don't know how old you are but in a decade or so you will come to realize how short a stretch that really is, plus as the saying goes, there is NOTHING new under the sun.

I can still hear my instructor in the seventies telling how vee eights were soon to be ancient history and how by the nineties high-tech. fours and sixes would make the vee eights seem like a bad idea.

The is one thing Tony George has and that is the Indianapolis race track; I doubt he can kill that, and as long as that track exists, there will be some sort of major open wheel racing going on, EVEN if only as a single race.
Bob
PS--IF Mr. George gets at least three manufacturers to actually participate in his series, or at least say they will, at that point one can have optimism.
Until then same old, same old.

[Jacques]

What "evidence" can ever be presented to show that something is going to happen in the future? By definition evidence is about things that HAVE happened. So the only extrapolation of evidence to future endeavors is ALWAYS based on hope or conjecture.

Gary

Is that the type of presentation Indy gave to ABC, engine manufacturers and Title sponsors ? "Hope" ?

There has to be a reason as to why these companies should spend millions on your product. This first year, the evidence is that things are the same as they have been for the first 12 years - still going downhill. To make matters worse, Indy is now on a smaller network than ESPN. Car count is till dependent on how many of CC's former teams can answer next years' bell - they used to go to KK, this year they went to TG, when will they be on their own ?

I never expected things to change in the first year, but the first year has been a big let down - more of the same.

If it didn't work in 12 years, why should we expect it to work now ? Just because CC is no longer around ? Is that all you have going for you ?

[Cart750hp]

Cart750:
The "nineties" was a WHOLE nine years ago; I don't know how old you are but in a decade or so you will come to realize how short a stretch that really is, plus as the saying goes, there is NOTHING new under the sun.

I can still hear my instructor in the seventies telling how vee eights were soon to be ancient history and how by the nineties high-tech. fours and sixes would make the vee eights seem like a bad idea.

The is one thing Tony George has and that is the Indianapolis race track; I doubt he can kill that, and as long as that track exists, there will be some sort of major open wheel racing going on, EVEN if only as a single race.
Bob
PS--IF Mr. George gets at least three manufacturers to actually participate in his series, or at least say they will, at that point one can have optimism.
Until then same old, same old.

Of course.

[garyshell]

But is AOWR better now than before the split? Not by any measure known to modern man.

I would be very surprised and disaappointed if you find a single person who disagrees with that assessment.

Gary

[garyshell]

Hmmm, that is rather naive BS, race on sunday, sell on monday drove Detroit, in all series.

That drove Detroit, but I suggest that it did NOT drive motorsports. And the reality is in the past 20 years race on Sunday sell on Monday has not been a factor at all.

Are you really naive enough to suggest that in the past twenty years Madison ave has not been king in motorsports. When a NASCAR driver has a mic stuck in his face after a win he doesn't say "Well the Ford, Nabisco, 7-11 car was reall good today". No, he says "The Nabisco, 7-11, Ford was really good today."

Gart

[downtowndeco]

I would be very surprised and disaappointed if you find a single person who disagrees with that assessment.

Gary

I agree with you Gary. The main point I was trying to make was CART was a train that was just waiting to go off the tracks. It wouldn't (IMO) have lasted. Too many egos, too many poor choices.

[Jacques]

Reply to all:
And Jacques, indeed, there was a marked, visible increase in attendance at Indy this year. As I've said earlier, ONE SERIES is the start of any resurrection, not a one-year microwave.

That is ONE race. And that race had a drop intv rating this year, right ?

What about the rest ? Unless you count the way CC counted, which was alleged to be the "wrong" way to count, most of them have gone down in atendance and tv rating.

United is better than divided - that is a given. But, if the IRL could not succeed in 12 years, is copying everything CART did the way to solve the problem ?

I ask again : Is CART II, with TG in control, the "solution" ?

That is what you, and so many others, are essentially saying. And that, I am sorry to say, is nonsense.

Just because TG has Indy, it does not mean that he can repeat all the crap CART and CC did and that, this time, it will turn to gold "just because he has Indy." If Indy could not save the IRL, how will it be able to save CART II ?

[downtowndeco]

I like a little healthy debate as much as the next guy. But I'm tired of beating my head on the wall.

Ignore List: Bob Riebe Jacques Ken

[Jacques]

I like a little healthy debate as much as the next guy. But I'm tired of beating my head on the wall.

Ignore List: Bob Riebe Jacques Ken
Maybe all that wall banging is why you find it so easy to fool yourself :)

Indy fans are beginning to write, and act, as CART/CC fans.

The hope and loyalty of IRL fans did not prevent their series from being turned into CART II. The hope and loyalty of CART fans did not prevent the demise of their series. Now, we are being told to have hope, and show loyalty, because Indy "may" make a recovery :rolleyes:

[Chris R]

Hmmm, that is rather naive BS, race on sunday, sell on monday drove Detroit, in all series.
Oh that is right, Zora Duntov had the GS Corvettes built because they would make him SO MUCH MONEY.

Chevy built the IMSA Monza and used a Ford-Cosworth Indy, after their own engine was a dog, because it would make them SO MUCH MONEY without regard to the automobiles they sell.-- ROFLMAO.

That's right Detroit that kept racing going in the U.S. did not build CARS, they printed MONEY!

The privateer group of racers did it because they wanted to or as the old saying goes the best way to make a million dollars racing is to start with two million dollars.
The supposed Madison Ave. view is why motor sports is failing, no one gives a damn anymore, so no one shows up.

Try again young fella and give me one single reason that says, at this point it will not be more same old, same old.
I have NO FAITH in Mr. Athony George.

Neither of the classic "golden ages" of AOWR (the 20's and the 50's) had any significant involvement from manufacturers..... I am just not convinced they are absolutely necessary if the sport is structured properly....

[Bob Riebe]

Neither of the classic "golden ages" of AOWR (the 20's and the 50's) had any significant involvement from manufacturers..... I am just not convinced they are absolutely necessary if the sport is structured properly....
The pre-war success of open wheel racing, at Indy and the few other non-dirt races was BECAUSE OF Detroit or some other automotive center.
Go check who made the engines that put Indianapolis on the map, without car companies showing up to show who was best, there would have been no one racing.
Check who spent money to come over for the Vanderbuilt Cup races, I believe you will see they are automobile companies.

The fifties was the glory years of DIRT track races with few exceptions, period.
I do believe on of the best remembered winners at Indy was not by a passenger car company; it was from company producing TRUCK ENGINES.
The one time Detroit, Chrysler and its hemi was going to race, the Offy boys had a lying fit, that made the AAA change the rules so Chrysler said to hell with it.
As wonderful as the Novi was it was when Ford showed up, that things became world renowned.

[SarahFan]

it's just become silly...

those who were propogandists prior to the 2008 season have simply become apologists..

[nanders]

So if you are a fan of AOWR, feel free to support and stop staring at the "what if" but "what is". I've said my part about TG when I was still a CC fan but as years shows that the series was failing, reality check!!

Tony still needs to be under a microscope. Every move he makes should be questioned and looked over with a fine tooth comb. Here's a man that single-handedly .... well you know. At present we've given him enough rope ... let's see if he can keep from hanging himself one more time. In the mean time we as fans should keep the pressure on.

[nanders]

The is one thing Tony George has and that is the Indianapolis race track; I doubt he can kill that, and as long as that track exists, there will be some sort of major open wheel racing going on, EVEN if only as a single race.
Bob


He could Lesa France Kennedy get involved ... she's pretty good at killing race tracks.

[Rex Monaco]

I agree with you Gary. The main point I was trying to make was CART was a train that was just waiting to go off the tracks. It wouldn't (IMO) have lasted. Too many egos, too many poor choices.

And the single ego of TG, coupled with his poor choces will ensure AOWR longevity?

That's a big stretch. Because so far the best decision he has made was to unify. Which itself was an admission that his original decision to create the split in the first place was a failure.

And I still contend that he wouldn't have merged, had Honda not been pressuring him to do so. Honda doesn't want to be a spec series, not at this level of motorsports anyway. (Honda Civic's racing against each other is another thing.)

Add to that the egos in CART found their way to the IRL, and he was likely getting pressure from them for their lack of sponsorship opportunites.

And then add that the family was likely putting prressure on him because the 100th Anniversary of this fabled track was coming real soon and the prospects of celebrating it under a black cloud wasn't very feastive.

So if TG is a dictatorship, he's a weak dictator at best. Real dictators bury their competition. He couldn't solidify his power over the sport after 12 years of trying without the need to invite the opposition to join him.

If anything, he is the weakened prime minister of a shakey coalition. If and when the sport regains some strength and some credibilty, he will likely be challenged by another ego(s) that is(are) bigger and stronger than his for control of the sport.

[dataman1]

OT Here's something to consider. While you all are harping at TG I suggest there is another little dictator developing that when I talk with the teams they are much more concerned about. That is Brian Barnhart (BB). Is TG pulling his strings?? I don't know. Yes, he hired Tony Cotman (TC) but he has basically shot down most that TC has suggested. If we were to put somebody under the microscope BB would get my pick. Food for thought.

How do others see BB's performance?

[indycool]

Indeed, Jacques, Indy is one race. The PPG Indy Car World Series included the USAC-sanctioned Indianapolis 500 and the CART-sanctioned rest of the schedule and THOSE were the years that everything grew more popular together.

Now, the Indianapolis 500 and the rest of the schedule are IRL-sanctioned. They are ONE SERIES again, regardless of sanction or ownership. If it looks to you like CART II, it's probably because of the addition of road courses to the schedule.

But the big differences are that the series has neither car owner or public ownership and the Indianapolis 500 is included in it. Those are MAJOR differences.

[downtowndeco]

And the single ego of TG, coupled with his poor choces will ensure AOWR longevity?

That's a big stretch. Because so far the best decision he has made was to unify. Which itself was an admission that his original decision to create the split in the first place was a failure.

And I still contend that he wouldn't have merged, had Honda not been pressuring him to do so. Honda doesn't want to be a spec series, not at this level of motorsports anyway. (Honda Civic's racing against each other is another thing.)

Add to that the egos in CART found their way to the IRL, and he was likely getting pressure from them for their lack of sponsorship opportunites.

And then add that the family was likely putting prressure on him because the 100th Anniversary of this fabled track was coming real soon and the prospects of celebrating it under a black cloud wasn't very feastive.

So if TG is a dictatorship, he's a weak dictator at best. Real dictators bury their competition. He couldn't solidify his power over the sport after 12 years of trying without the need to invite the opposition to join him.

If anything, he is the weakened prime minister of a shakey coalition. If and when the sport regains some strength and some credibilty, he will likely be challenged by another ego(s) that is(are) bigger and stronger than his for control of the sport.


There was no merger. CCWS went out of business. Tony was nice enough to help them turn out the lights and find some of them jobs.

We get it. You don't like TG because he beat CC. Let it go already.

[Rex Monaco]

There was no merger. CCWS went out of business. Tony was nice enough to help them turn out the lights and find some of them jobs.

We get it. You don't like TG because he beat CC. Let it go already.

Actually you don't get it. When CART died, so did my alliegence to any AOWR series.

It is now about AOWR. And I don't beleive that TG has done anything in the past 12 years to prove himself to be a leader that is capable of turning AOWR around.

And you can delude yourself into thinking that TG saved AOWR. But if it wasn't for him, it wouldn't have needed to be saved.

And the train wreck you that you thought CART was on (hindsite coupled with revisionism is so wonderful), happened on the same track with the same passengers that the IRL is now riding along.

And as history shows us, it's just a matter of time before this train derails itself. And with this engineer in control, that will likely be sooner rather than later.

[indycool]

Rex, as dd said, there WAS NO merger. CART went bankrupt. Then CC went bankrupt. The IRL is NOT bankrupt. The IRL is running Indy car races. Why? Because that's what it was formed to do. Duh.

This idea some put forth about "trusting" TG is something I really don't understand. "Trust" him to do what? Do what the individual poster wants him to do?

[Rex Monaco]

When CART died, so did my alliegence to any AOWR series.

And shortly before CART died, I was labeled a 'Doom and Gloomer' in this very forum for suggesting that CART was making serious mistakes.

[indycool]

When you say "this forum," do you mean before or after they were combined into one? Your post indicates it was before CART died, which would indicate your posts may well have been in the CART forum.

[Rex Monaco]

This idea some put forth about "trusting" TG is something I really don't understand. "Trust" him to do what? Do what the individual poster wants him to do?

Trust him to do what? Is AOWR better today than 12 years ago?

Let's start by trusting him not to screw up the next 12 years of AOWR.

So he helped bankrupt CART and then he bought CC assets before they bankrupted the company.

Does that make him some great business strategist? Or is he just a guy who was priviledged enough to have been born with deeper pockets than his equally as enept competitors?

TG, like CC and CART, failed to keep the manufacturers interested in the series. So now it is a bottom up rebuild. Not a great display foresite or leadership, if you ask me. And that's what my lack of trust is based upon.

I call this year slightly better than last year because of A. ) Unification (however the spinmeisters claim it was done), B. ) Announcing the 2009 schedule in advance and C. ) Securing a long term stable TV deal.

And for the sake of AOWR, I hope next year is better than this year.

But I don't expect to see large growth, let alone massive growth, until there are other manufacturers competing in this series. And then there is will still the issue of the Indy 500 being a series race, rather than a racing event.

[Rex Monaco]

When you say "this forum," do you mean before or after they were combined into one? Your post indicates it was before CART died, which would indicate your posts may well have been in the CART forum.

No, I didn't post about CART in the then non-existant Indycar forum nor did I post about CART in the now defunct IRL forum.

I said this forum, because those posts are now part of this forum. I said this forum, because that forum was merged with the IRL forum to become the IndyCar forum.

But thanks for playing!

[indycool]

IMO, it's not an issue of "trust" but some are using that term the wrong way. It would seem like those doing the complaining would have lost "trust" in those who don't own a series any more because they went belly-up.

"Trust," to me, is the correct change for a buck when I buy a candy bar or that my wife isn't flitting around with my neighbor.

Again, people are using the word "trust" in the context of TG because they choose to continue the concept of his evil through the years....not that he's cheated anyone. The term is misued.

[garyshell]

Rex, as dd said, there WAS NO merger. CART went bankrupt. Then CC went bankrupt. The IRL is NOT bankrupt. The IRL is running Indy car races. Why? Because that's what it was formed to do. Duh.

This idea some put forth about "trusting" TG is something I really don't understand. "Trust" him to do what? Do what the individual poster wants him to do?


Just a small nit to pick here. CC did NOT go bankrupt until AFTER the agreement to reunify the two series. And that was done only as a matter of convenience to simply tie up a bunch of loose ends.

You and downtowndeco depict this as CC going bankrupt and then King George offered a hand out. That is not the sequence of events that transpired.

I realize that end result is the same, however it paints a totally different picture of the character/manner of the unification.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Just a small nit to pick here. CC did NOT go bankrupt until AFTER the agreement to reunify the two series. And that was done only as a matter of convenience to simply tie up a bunch of loose ends.

You and downtowndeco depict this as CC going bankrupt and then King George offered a hand out. That is not the sequence of events that transpired.

I realize that end result is the same, however it paints a totally different picture of the character/manner of the unification.

Gary

I won't nitpick too much either, but come on. BK or just plain running out of money (or not wanting to throw any more good money after bad) the result was the same.

Let's be honest. CCWS was running on LESS than fumes for the last couple seasons. It survived only because of a couple large checkbooks and egos. It's not like they were right on the verge of success but decided, for the good of OW racing, to be good guys, that they would suceed with the IRL. CCWS was a dead man walking.

[garyshell]

Just a small nit to pick here. CC did NOT go bankrupt until AFTER the agreement to reunify the two series. And that was done only as a matter of convenience to simply tie up a bunch of loose ends.

You and downtowndeco depict this as CC going bankrupt and then King George offered a hand out. That is not the sequence of events that transpired.

I realize that end result is the same, however it paints a totally different picture of the character/manner of the unification.

Gary


I won't nitpick too much either, but come on. BK or just plain running out of money (or not wanting to throw any more good money after bad) the result was the same.

Let's be honest. CCWS was running on LESS than fumes for the last couple seasons. It survived only because of a couple large checkbooks and egos. It's not like they were right on the verge of success but decided, for the good of OW racing, to be good guys, that they would sauced with the IRL. CCWS was a dead man walking.


Didn't I clearly say that the results were the same? You want me to be honest, I am trying to be. But you need to be honest when stating WHEN the CC folks went bankrupt. IC's characterization that CC went bankrupt and THEN King George extended an olive branch is flatly and patently FALSE. He extended the olive branch, KK accepted and THEN declared bankruptcy as a means to quickly and efficiently dispense with the myriad of contracts that were still outstanding.

Yes, they were running on fumes, I never claimed anything to the contrary. Yes, KK was growing weary of writing checks, but you have NO idea how soon they may or may not have declare bankruptcy. I know Forsythe was NOT ready to throw in the towel. Who knows how committed he might have been and for how long? You don't, nor do I.

I am only trying to prevent a bit of the revisionist history that has permeated both sides in this ongoing battle. No more, no less.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Didn't I clearly say that the results were the same? You want me to be honest, I am trying to be. But you need to be honest when stating WHEN the CC folks went bankrupt. IC's characterization that CC went bankrupt and THEN King George extended an olive branch is flatly and patently FALSE. He extended the olive branch, KK accepted and THEN declared bankruptcy as a means to quickly and efficiently dispense with the myriad of contracts that were still outstanding.

Yes, they were running on fumes, I never claimed anything to the contrary. Yes, KK was growing weary of writing checks, but you have NO idea how soon they may or may not have declare bankruptcy. I know Forsythe was NOT ready to throw in the towel. Who knows how committed he might have been and for how long? You don't, nor do I.

I am only trying to prevent a bit of the revisionist history that has permeated both sides in this ongoing battle. No more, no less.

Gary

Fair enough Gary. We just see this one a little differently. Cheers.

[Rex Monaco]

IMO, it's not an issue of "trust" but some are using that term the wrong way. It would seem like those doing the complaining would have lost "trust" in those who don't own a series any more because they went belly-up.

"Trust," to me, is the correct change for a buck when I buy a candy bar or that my wife isn't flitting around with my neighbor.

Again, people are using the word "trust" in the context of TG because they choose to continue the concept of his evil through the years....not that he's cheated anyone. The term is misued.

Then I don't trust your judgement.

[Rex Monaco]

Just a small nit to pick here. CC did NOT go bankrupt until AFTER the agreement to reunify the two series. And that was done only as a matter of convenience to simply tie up a bunch of loose ends.

You and downtowndeco depict this as CC going bankrupt and then King George offered a hand out. That is not the sequence of events that transpired.

I realize that end result is the same, however it paints a totally different picture of the character/manner of the unification.

Gary


And since it is done in order to paint a totally different picture, some of us label it what it is. Pure IRLista spin.

[Rex Monaco]

Let's be honest. CCWS was running on LESS than fumes for the last couple seasons. It survived only because of a couple large checkbooks and egos. It's not like they were right on the verge of success but decided, for the good of OW racing, to be good guys, that they would suceed with the IRL. CCWS was a dead man walking.

Ok, then let's be honest.

The IRL was running on LESS than fumes for the last couple seasons. It survived only because of a large checkbook and ego. It's not like TG was right on the verge of success but decided, for the good of OW racing, to be a good guy, that he would suceed with the CCWS. IRL was a dead man walking.

[Rex Monaco]

It would seem like those doing the complaining would have lost "trust" in those who don't own a series any more because they went belly-up.


Or is he just a guy who was priviledged enough to have been born with deeper pockets than his equally as enept competitors?

It would seem that I already addressed my lost of trust of those people in this post.

So can I trust that you will start taking my posts at face value?

[garyshell]

And since it is done in order to paint a totally different picture, some of us label it what it is. Pure IRLista spin.


Call it whatever you like, I call it revisionist history and point it out whenever I see EITHER side try to do it. Neither group has a monopoly on this sort of thing.

Gary

[indycool]

Gary, I agree with your statement that CC went bankrupt AFTER the "blendification." If I left the wrong impression, my bad. The serial, though, of chicken-egg, will-they-or-won't-they-run situation about CC went back to September of '07 in actuality. Talks quit, then got restarted in December. If they HADN'T blended, I don't think we would have seen a CC season.

[Jacques]

Indeed, Jacques, Indy is one race. The PPG Indy Car World Series included the USAC-sanctioned Indianapolis 500 and the CART-sanctioned rest of the schedule and THOSE were the years that everything grew more popular together.

Now, the Indianapolis 500 and the rest of the schedule are IRL-sanctioned. They are ONE SERIES again, regardless of sanction or ownership. If it looks to you like CART II, it's probably because of the addition of road courses to the schedule.

But the big differences are that the series has neither car owner or public ownership and the Indianapolis 500 is included in it. Those are MAJOR differences.

All that is true, but it does not mean that things are better because of it.
Maybe the separation of powers was better.
Unification could have been the solution if the plan for the future was a good one. But the plan, so far, is to continue what the IRL has done for 12 years ("oh, and btw, let's add road racing to it"). If that plan failed in 12 years, and it did not have good results this year, then it is NOT obvious, or a given, that it will succeed in the near future.

Why did ABC call it quits the year of Unification ? How come Title Sponsors are not knocking down doors ? Something is amiss. Hope alone will not fix it.

[garyshell]

Gary, I agree with your statement that CC went bankrupt AFTER the "blendification." If I left the wrong impression, my bad. The serial, though, of chicken-egg, will-they-or-won't-they-run situation about CC went back to September of '07 in actuality. Talks quit, then got restarted in December. If they HADN'T blended, I don't think we would have seen a CC season.


Yes, we could argue the chicken and egg or the would they have continued question forever, to no avail on either count. (Who knows HOW stubborn Forsythe would or could have been. His spite seems to be boundless.)

The only point I wanted to make was that the reality is the CC folks declared bankruptcy to wipe away the contracts outstanding AFTER they agreed to unify the two series. That is a very different fact than stating the opposite sequence which others here are want to do.

Gary

[indycool]

Jacques, many on these forums were pulling for one series for many years. The situation is now different than when there were two series. Again, as I have posted before, there IS no microwave in one year and there are those (apparently you among them) who will ignore any successes the series might make that others value as successes because you really don't want to.

[Miatanut]

Let's be honest. CCWS was running on LESS than fumes for the last couple seasons. It survived only because of a couple large checkbooks and egos.

As compared to the IRL, which was running on a single, larger checkbook and ego? :confused: I'm not seeing much of a difference here, beyond the commitment to the various players to their respective causes.

[downtowndeco]

As compared to the IRL, which was running on a single, larger checkbook and ego? :confused: I'm not seeing much of a difference here, beyond the commitment to the various players to their respective causes.

Still in business after 13 years and no imminent chance of collapse anytime soon for starters. Have you guys forgotten how far CCWS had fallen? Cancelled races? Lawsuits? Always the question of whether "next season" was going to happen? Buy TV? There is simply no comparison between the IRL & how low CC had fallen.

[NickFalzone]

Champ Car was one of the dumber, more elitist race series. Not a huge fan of the IRL, but I do get the sense that it's going in a good direction now. If you don't like it, find something else to watch. As far as I can tell, they're (slowly) making changes like turbos, multiple manufacturers, and more road courses that may bring it back to something approaching CART. If that still doesn't interest you, then I'm sure there's some Euro-racing on that you can TIVO.

[Jacques]

Jacques, many on these forums were pulling for one series for many years. The situation is now different than when there were two series. Again, as I have posted before, there IS no microwave in one year and there are those (apparently you among them) who will ignore any successes the series might make that others value as successes because you really don't want to.

I wanted one series, but only if it was a good series. One bad series is no good !

We lost a lot in the last decade, and I see no real plan to bring back fans or to make new ones.

It is not that I ignore success, it is that I see no sign of any success.

[indycool]

IMO, from your posts, I gather it's a "bad series" IYO because TG owns it.

[garyshell]

Still in business after 13 years and no imminent chance of collapse anytime soon for starters. Have you guys forgotten how far CCWS had fallen? Cancelled races? Lawsuits? Always the question of whether "next season" was going to happen? Buy TV? There is simply no comparison between the IRL & how low CC had fallen.


Come on downtowndeco, let me admonish you like you did me to be honest. Do you REALLY think that CCWS has a monopoly on things done/gone wrong? The legions of ticket scalpers selling ducats at face value or less on Memorial day for several years running is telling, don't you think? (Thankfully that period appears to be behind us.) I'm not saying how a comparison of failures would pan out. I don't care and that's the point. This incessant, "well your series fell further than my series" does nothing to further the REAL discussions of where do we go next. And I am NOT suggesting that YOU have a monopoly on that incessant line of talk. God knows there are many on the other side of the aisle dong the same thing. Both made mistakes, which one made more? WHO CARES????

Yes, you are right the ICS is still in business after 13 years and no chance of imminent collapse, but much of that is based on an nice cushion that sits at 16th and Georgetown.

Gary

[maxmach]

What the hell, are we going to argue who's fault it is for the next 12 years? We had two series, neither of which was doing very well. We now have one series, which if we and ,I mean we the racing fan, if we don't support it we will have none. Support does not mean lack of criticism, or not acknologing success. We have one series, which is trying to grow into something self sufficient. Like a teenager. We have a ways to go, or we will have nothing. Enough of the past, learn and move on. Just tired of talking about who's fault it is, it does not matter any more. This is it.

[indycool]

You're right in everything you say, Gary, IMO. But dd's post is dealing with those who are grumping about what's left from that side of the aisle.

For those who think that "nice cushion" at 16th and Georgetown was going to go away because CART felt it could bring the Indianapolis 500 to its knees, or CC's owners thought they could make money against a series around the Indianapolis 500, finding little tweaks and twacks to grump about is just peeing into the wind.

Of course, every strategic move that each side made against each other or for themselves during those 12 years didn't work. It came back to where it started, one series including the Indianapolis 500. It is what it is, thrown back together hastily in the spring or we might not have had much racing at all this year.

To enumerate what the ONE series doesn't have YET is just ex-post-facto sour grapes. It took 12 years to come unglued and go back together, it's going to take longer than eight months for us to see if it gets percolatin' like we want it to. And there are some who are so grumpy that they DON'T want it to.

[SarahFan]

What the hell, are we going to argue who's fault it is for the next 12 years? We had two series, neither of which was doing very well. We now have one series, which if we and ,I mean we the racing fan, if we don't support it we will have none. Support does not mean lack of criticism, or not acknologing success. We have one series, which is trying to grow into something self sufficient. Like a teenager. We have a ways to go, or we will have nothing. Enough of the past, learn and move on. Just tired of talking about who's fault it is, it does not matter any more. This is it.


we have one series.... of which TG is the undisputed leader...some here want to give him a complete pass....

he played a significant part in how the sport got to limited attendance, zero.something ratings, single engine and chassis and struggling for sponsors


questioning how he is going to lead the sport out of a very big hole is legitimate discussion.....even if a few don't want too

[SarahFan]

And there are some who are so grumpy that they DON'T want it to.

IMO that's complete BS

it's that we now have propogandists turned apologists that discount legitimate critism, unwilling to discuss the Biz aspect of the current administration

just becuase we now have a defacto single series doesn't mean the same concerns aren't facing the sport as it navigates it's future

[indycool]

That's easy, Ken.

One, he has a staff and doesn't hafta do it all by himself.

Two, he doesn't have a war to concern himself with.

The second item is a situation that played into, either a lot or a little, everything that happened over 12 years of administration. It is now eliminated.

So, he is leading in a much different situation than he has for his league over the past 12 years when all those things happened that you mentioned. Time will tell where it goes.

[SarahFan]

That's easy, Ken.

One, he has a staff and doesn't hafta do it all by himself.

Two, he doesn't have a war to concern himself with.

The second item is a situation that played into, either a lot or a little, everything that happened over 12 years of administration. It is now eliminated.

So, he is leading in a much different situation than he has for his league over the past 12 years when all those things happened that you mentioned. Time will tell where it goes.

no one is disputing any of that ....


doesn't mean legitimate critism isn't worthy of duscussion..... as much as you and a few others want to discourage it

[Jag_Warrior]

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago?

Most people here seem to be focusing on American open wheel racing, not the world of open wheel racing, as is in the thread title. To put the focus back on the open wheel world, where Formula One is the dominant factor, I'd say things are at least as good, if not better, in 2008 than 2007.

[-Helix-]

IMO that's complete BS

it's that we now have propogandists turned apologists that discount legitimate critism, unwilling to discuss the Biz aspect of the current administration

just becuase we now have a defacto single series doesn't mean the same concerns aren't facing the sport as it navigates it's future

I find this post highly ironic coming from someone who completely blocks out any alternative points of view (i.e. reality) and rebuttals with the same old rehashed ignorance.

Its been ONE season since the merger happened and people are complaining already that the new series is no good? Ridiculous. We haven't even seen the new series yet. Apparently it's the IRL's own fault that their series actually survived. :rolleyes:

[-Helix-]

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago?

Most people here seem to be focusing on American open wheel racing, not the world of open wheel racing, as is in the thread title. To put the focus back on the open wheel world, where Formula One is the dominant factor, I'd say things are at least as good, if not better, in 2008 than 2007.

And F1 will most likely be even better next year too. They just need to make sure they start calling the right winner so they don't lose too much credibility. :p

[SarahFan]

I find this post highly ironic coming from someone who completely blocks out any alternative points of view (i.e. reality) and rebuttals with the same old rehashed ignorance.

Its been ONE season since the merger happened and people are complaining already that the new series is no good? Ridiculous. We haven't even seen the new series yet. Apparently it's the IRL's own fault that their series actually survived. :rolleyes:

hopes and wants aren't a point of view.......

[indycool]

Criticism based on elements of an entirely different scenario, at a different time, in a different situation, than it was during the split years, IMO, isn't "legitimate."

Ken, you've said I don't want to discuss business now. The business of auto racing was best said once by Dennis Wood, former owner of Phoenix International Raceway.

Paraphrasing, he said, "In auto racing, everyone must win. The fan must get a good show. The TV viewer must get a good show. The promoter must make money to keep his facility operating. The sanctioning body must make money to pay competitors and teams and officials and keep its series operating. The TV network must be able to sell ads to produce a profit on the telecasts. The sponsor must get a bang for the buck on exposure and promotional value. Everyone must win. If any of those elements get out of balance, the sport is not winning."

That's the business of auto racing. It's a very delicate balance and requires creative movement to get there from time to time and it'd be impossible to achieve it every lap of every race. But that must be the goal. Greed in any element spoils the party.

[SarahFan]

Criticism based on elements of an entirely different scenario, at a different time, in a different situation, than it was during the split years, IMO, isn't "legitimate."

Ken, you've said I don't want to discuss business now. The business of auto racing was best said once by Dennis Wood, former owner of Phoenix International Raceway.

Paraphrasing, he said, "In auto racing, everyone must win. The fan must get a good show. The TV viewer must get a good show. The promoter must make money to keep his facility operating. The sanctioning body must make money to pay competitors and teams and officials and keep its series operating. The TV network must be able to sell ads to produce a profit on the telecasts. The sponsor must get a bang for the buck on exposure and promotional value. Everyone must win. If any of those elements get out of balance, the sport is not winning."

That's the business of auto racing. It's a very delicate balance and requires creative movement to get there from time to time and it'd be impossible to achieve it every lap of every race. But that must be the goal. Greed in any element spoils the party.

OK... so what's your point

[Miatanut]

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago?

Most people here seem to be focusing on American open wheel racing, not the world of open wheel racing, as is in the thread title. To put the focus back on the open wheel world, where Formula One is the dominant factor, I'd say things are at least as good, if not better, in 2008 than 2007.

I noticed that too (third paragraph) http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=531127&postcount=24

The elimination of traction control has completely transformed F1 for me, and KERS is about to take it up a couple more notches. Hopefully the new aero rules will finally be successful at getting rid of all the ridiculous fins, tabs, bunny ears, viking horns, etc. which they have been trying and failing to outlaw for years.

Thank goodness! :up:

[Miatanut]

Still in business after 13 years and no imminent chance of collapse anytime soon for starters. Have you guys forgotten how far CCWS had fallen? Cancelled races? Lawsuits? Always the question of whether "next season" was going to happen? Buy TV? There is simply no comparison between the IRL & how low CC had fallen.

The only difference was a difference in the size of financial commitment. The rest of the results were symptoms of the difference in financial commitment. Folks were always bashing (with good reason) CCWS for inflating attendance figures, but all you have to do is tour around the photos section at motorsport.com to look at the crowds, and you will see that outside of Indy and Texas, IRL crowds were a lot smaller on race day, and non-existent during qualifying. It is abundantly clear that total paid attendance at American open wheel events this year will be down substantially because half the races were never run, and few of the people who would have attended those events attended IRL events.

One series had more money, the other had a larger fan following. If Tony George had done everything in his power to make the end of the split look like a merger of equals, he would have won a lot of new fans. I knew from when he first announced the IRL that there was no room for two competing series, and that it was a threat to the sport. Of course that also means that I knew all along that ending the split was the only way out of this mess. Although I personally can't stand Tony George, if it had appeared as a merger of equals, I would have been on board from the beginning. Because the current cars are repulsive to me, I wouldn't have watched much racing until they fixed that problem, but I wouldn't have the attitude I have now, where I'm as pissed-off as ever.

Yet another opportunity to end the split squandered.

What we have now is something like Germany after WWI, when we could have had something like Germany and Japan after the post-WWII Marshall Plan and Japanese re-building.

[Miatanut]

That's easy, Ken.

One, he has a staff and doesn't hafta do it all by himself.

Two, he doesn't have a war to concern himself with.

The second item is a situation that played into, either a lot or a little, everything that happened over 12 years of administration. It is now eliminated.

So, he is leading in a much different situation than he has for his league over the past 12 years when all those things happened that you mentioned. Time will tell where it goes.

To me, that is a greater concern. Before, he had some competition to keep him on his toes. Now, he's the only game in town. How exactly is that going to encourage him to raise his game.

The sport needs to be run by the people with gasoline running in their veins. That has been made abundantly clear to me these last 30 years.

[Jag_Warrior]

To me, that is a greater concern. Before, he had some competition to keep him on his toes. Now, he's the only game in town. How exactly is that going to encourage him to raise his game.

NASCAR.

IMO, one of the bigger mistakes made by both series was ONLY seeing the other series as competition. A good many of us watched various types of racing, with a preference for open wheel formula cars, as far as the North American scene was concerned. Just going by the ratings, the majority of open wheel viewers from the mid 90's has left open wheel, whether it be for NASCAR or other sports. But NASCAR (ALMS, NHRA, ALMS, etc.) is not going anywhere. F1 was my first love, with Indy and later CART a very close second. While the two warring series (and their fans) beat the crap out of each other, chasing away viewers and sponsors, believing that they were the only game in town, the WORLD moved on. And now, if George believes that Danica posing once a year in a bikini or Marco being gifted a win will seriously raise the exposure of the IRL, I think he's a bit out to lunch. With one series, I agree that he does have a better opportunity. But sponsors were never in a position that they HAD to choose one series over the other, except in the very short term. And so... here we are. :(



The sport needs to be run by the people with gasoline running in their veins. That has been made abundantly clear to me these last 30 years.

I fully agree with you. The France family might have to send Brian to Jimmy Hoffa's vacation spot to keep making progress. But even with that dope in charge, I don't see any real signs that NASCAR is going to allow itself to fall within reach of open wheel formula car racing EVER AGAIN. Why? Because those people, love 'em or hate 'em, do have gasoline (probably leaded) running through their veins.

[downtowndeco]

One series had more money, the other had a larger fan following.


Seriously your not talking about CCWS, are you? Their inflated announced attendance was the running joke in the motorsports press. If they had such a subtancial following how do account for their zero share ratings that were the norm?

BTW. CCWS had all of the money it ever needed. The people who had it though simply got sick of throwing it away to try and keep a few hundred internet fans happy.

[chapparrel]

CCWS had plenty of fans. Some events we had cleared 30,000 on a Friday practice.

Merchandise was killing us. Pr Dept was inept. And they basically just sold out the fans.

[indycool]

The ICS is NOT the only game in town, nor is NASCAR. The entertainment interest and subsequent dollars are not limited to those two entities, nor even adding ALMS, NHA, etc. There are football, golf, tennis, baseball, basketball, etc., along with extreme sports and new sports and the Olympics every few years. I don't pay attention to soccer. But around the world, a lot of other people do. It's just a bigger picture than that.

[Miatanut]

Seriously your not talking about CCWS, are you? Their inflated announced attendance was the running joke in the motorsports press. If they had such a subtancial following how do account for their zero share ratings that were the norm?

BTW. CCWS had all of the money it ever needed. The people who had it though simply got sick of throwing it away to try and keep a few hundred internet fans happy.

Yes, they inflated reported attendance. Did you see above I wouldn't debate that? Did you also see my invitation to check out the photos? The photos at motorsport.com aren't the 'shopped kind. They are just the real deal. An important distinction is that CCWS always focussed on three day attendance numbers, because they had a lot of three day and two day fans. IRL venues are always a ghost town during qualifying and it blew me away the day CCWS got a lot more folks showing up (for free) to see the DP01 TESTING at Laguna than folks who show up for qualifying at an IRL race mid-season. Have you ever been to testing? Unless you have a scanner so you can hear what the teams are up to, it's like watching grass grow.

That's the kind of following CCWS had.

[Miatanut]

The ICS is NOT the only game in town, nor is NASCAR. The entertainment interest and subsequent dollars are not limited to those two entities, nor even adding ALMS, NHA, etc. There are football, golf, tennis, baseball, basketball, etc., along with extreme sports and new sports and the Olympics every few years. I don't pay attention to soccer. But around the world, a lot of other people do. It's just a bigger picture than that.

Yes, and they were all around, as was cable TV, as CART was rapidly growing in the late '80's and early '90's. F1 is as popular as ever. NASCAR has peaked, but they had strong growth the last few years as American open wheel was spiraling downward. The 'explosion of other entertainment opportunities' argument has always been just an excuse for failure.

[indycool]

Well, I disagree. There are far more choices for the entertainment interest and dollar now than in the '90s. Even with cable or a dish, you can stay home and get 100-plus channels to choose from. That's why ratings are down for almost EVERY sport. There are also a ton of people spending their time playing games on the Internet or just surfing the 'Net today. Every bar has a video game and most have a big-screen TV. Times have changed, as they always do. And I don't think the Indy car series IS a failure.

And when you say CART was growing, you should be saying the PPG Indy Car World Series, which included the Indianapolis 500, was growing.

[Jag_Warrior]

The ICS is NOT the only game in town, nor is NASCAR. The entertainment interest and subsequent dollars are not limited to those two entities, nor even adding ALMS, NHA, etc. There are football, golf, tennis, baseball, basketball, etc., along with extreme sports and new sports and the Olympics every few years. I don't pay attention to soccer. But around the world, a lot of other people do. It's just a bigger picture than that.

Exactly. Though I did restrict my examples to motorsports, my point, made better by you than me, was that the elimination of one competitor does not necessarily open the door of success.

F1's ratings have been pretty much unchanged (in the U.S.) since the mid 90's. NASCAR's are up dramatically. I assumed in my post that people who once watched motorsports continued to watch some other form of motorsport, if they stopped watching one. But maybe some number of them started watching something else altogether? :confused: But with sponsors, I agree. Why would they care whether they're sponsoring an IRL race or a WNBA game, as long as the viewership and desired demographic is there?

Anyway, greater marketplace competition doesn't necessarily mean that established players lose share. You lose (or gain) share based on how the market reacts to your product vs. ALL competition.

[downtowndeco]

Yes, they inflated reported attendance. Did you see above I wouldn't debate that? Did you also see my invitation to check out the photos? The photos at motorsport.com aren't the 'shopped kind. They are just the real deal. An important distinction is that CCWS always focussed on three day attendance numbers, because they had a lot of three day and two day fans. IRL venues are always a ghost town during qualifying and it blew me away the day CCWS got a lot more folks showing up (for free) to see the DP01 TESTING at Laguna than folks who show up for qualifying at an IRL race mid-season. Have you ever been to testing? Unless you have a scanner so you can hear what the teams are up to, it's like watching grass grow.

That's the kind of following CCWS had.

Yes, we know. CCWS/CART was so much more popular than the IRL. Why they went out of business twice is a mystery.

[Miatanut]

Yes, we know. CCWS/CART was so much more popular than the IRL. Why they went out of business twice is a mystery.
I can clear up the mystery for you quite easily.

Tony was willing to spend several million dollars a year on his war. His opposition was businessmen who were trying to make a buck, which they couldn't do in that environment.

I also don't think CCWS ever had any chance. If it ever gained traction, NASCAR would have given Tony boatloads of money to snow them under. They benefited a great deal from the split, and it was definitely in their interest to keep it going.

[downtowndeco]

I can clear up the mystery for you quite easily.

Tony was willing to spend several million dollars a year on his war. His opposition was businessmen who were trying to make a buck, which they couldn't do in that environment.

I also don't think CCWS ever had any chance. If it ever gained traction, NASCAR would have given Tony boatloads of money to snow them under. They benefited a great deal from the split, and it was definitely in their interest to keep it going.

Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better. But perhaps you're forgetting the IRL got paid to race, CCWS had to self promote. The IRL got paid to be on TV. CCWS had to buy air time. The IRL had Honda and the Indy 500 in it's corner. CCWS had, well, Kevin wallet & the San Jose GP.

[SarahFan]

Seriously your not talking about CCWS, are you? Their inflated announced attendance was the running joke in the motorsports press. If they had such a subtancial following how do account for their zero share ratings that were the norm?

BTW. CCWS had all of the money it ever needed. The people who had it though simply got sick of throwing it away to try and keep a few hundred internet fans happy.

welcome CARTII....

sellout capicty crowds when the stands are 1/2 full, Honda givaways.... and 100k at belle isle...


and a few of you folks wonder why the bulk of us believe there is reason for concern

[indycool]

The bulk of you?

[Jacques]

The bulk of you?
Why not ? Indy fans believe tv ratings and attenface are up, so why is it wrong to say the bulk of us ?
You see, that is the issue with OW today. Not only has Indy copied CART, but Indy fans have now copied CART fans, too.

[Miatanut]

The bulk of you?

The bulk of us are those empty bleachers you see at every race.

The bulk of us are the 2.0-3.0 missing from the TV ratings every race.

As you can see, there are quite a lot of us. You can keep pretending it's all those other entertainment options you keep talking about, but it's not. The root of the problem is our dissatisfaction with the current product, leadership, and direction.

If the IRL should make itself into a pretty good imitation of CART, you'll see most of us back.

[chapparrel]

Working between both series' for the last 8 plus, years I would have to say big picture, that for the series as a whole to grow one had to go. There had to be a loser to open the door for the bigger picture. I have mauled TG since 1995 and I really think he is gonna try and make everyone happy if he wants the series to be on top again.
Bringin turbos back and Canadian venues is a big step. I am willing to be patient, and see, what happens.
The real downer this year for me anyway was Paul Newman. Kinda put into prespective the big pic in this whole thing.

[Albert D. Kallal]

Well, yes, things are better. And the racing was better this year due to a full grid.

This don’t mean things are simply fixed, but it is a good start.

I support the idea of improving the car, but a new car does not instant fix things. We DO need a better car so that MORE drivers are willing to come and play in the series. It is a question of attracting talent that desires to race in the series. The improved mix of street/road courses means we need a better car anyway.

And, if TG does succeed in bringing in manufactures, then money can flow in. It is a brilliant move on TG’s part if he can pull this off. If this occurs, then things look VERY good for IRL.

And, as others said, not sure why TG is sticking with the Italian company for the car. I have no issue with using equipment from anywhere, but just an issue of cost. Perhaps for TG it is a question of loyalty. And, a foreign builder for the car does keep international possibilities open. For me, it only a worry about cost issues.

So, yes, things are better, and TG is making some good moves to improve the situation, and that is a good thing in it's self…

And, I actually think that with a few chanages, then even us die hard champ car fans will be happy. I liked what I saw this year, and with what TG is doing, it can only get better.....

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[NickFalzone]

For one, the chassis manus are not going to bring any extra sponsor "activation", it's not like the average consumer buys Dallara's or G-Force's. There's also a safety reason behind the single chassis/tire. Yes, it limits a variety of car styles and additional competition between designs but IMO the multiple engine manufacturers is the key to the new car, and so far things sound good in that direction.

[indycool]

Jacques, Miatanut:

CW come back, all is forgiven.

[SarahFan]

The bulk of you?

remember that small but vocal CW jihad you were so fond of calling out?

well welcome to the the not so quiet Minority....because that's smack dab where you now reside...in fact your one of the leaders

heck IC...look no further than the pole at TF running at 90% where current fans of AOWR believe that the IRL has strayed from it's original vision so far that it has become CARTII and there is serios reason for concern...

you and the other 10% are prolific, but in the minority for certain

[SarahFan]

Why not ? Indy fans believe tv ratings and attenface are up, .

no they don't....


read the forums....the majority of AOWR fans are concerned about the direction of the sport from a biz standpoint....that is very very clear

[SarahFan]

Working between both series' for the last 8 plus, years I would have to say big picture, that for the series as a whole to grow one had to go. .


totally agree.... that's why the clear answer to the question is: of coarse it's better off

[indycool]

Hahaha, Ken, that's funny. Went back and looked at the poll questions again and the answer percentages, that's rigged to be interpreted either way and you've even extended the interpretation past what it says. Question "B" contradicts itself, for one thing.

For another, I don't believe the few hundred of us total on all the forums represent a majority of the fans out there.

But I hafta admit.....you're very good at this, Ken.

[SarahFan]

Hahaha, Ken, that's funny. Went back and looked at the poll questions again and the answer percentages, that's rigged to be interpreted either way and you've even extended the interpretation past what it says. Question "B" contradicts itself, for one thing.

For another, I don't believe the few hundred of us total on all the forums represent a majority of the fans out there.

But I hafta admit.....you're very good at this, Ken.

come on IC.... it's a poll at the most IRLcentric forum on the web

and 90% of fans believe the current IRL is closer to CARTII than the vision

sorry that doesn't wash with your agenda

[indycool]

Sorry, Ken, but that's not what the poll says.

[SarahFan]

the current IRL.......
currently closer resembles

A. The "Vision"

B. CART II

[SarahFan]

View Poll Results: In your opinion
A. The "Vision" 7 9.86%
B. CART II 64 90.14%




and when you read the replies is clear that 90% finds it concerning



your turn: spin away

[chapparrel]

Sorry, Ken, but that's not what the poll says.

I fully agree with Ken. Sorry but it's true. IRL fans who were diehard oval fans are royally pissed at the way the series is becoming more and more like Cart.
Thats a fact.
Once turbos come,,,, forget it. They may leave forever.

[indycool]

I must be reading the other poll you started. I can't find that one. I'm talking about the one with five selections.

[SarahFan]

I must be reading the other poll you started. I can't find that one. I'm talking about the one with five selections.

The Current state of AOWR...
how are folks feelin'?

A.. All is well..I'm loving merger...increase in car count and the road and streets really makes for a challenging championship......and from the Biz side of things all well, I see potential and skys the limit

B.....the Merger has resparked my excitement for the sport......but I still have some reservations and concerns about the direction of the sport...for example how to stay Ovalcentric, Television and lack of Title sponsor etc.


C. transitional teams bring nothing.....and the Biz of AOWR is in the toilet with no light at the end of the tunnel

D. stopped caring years ago.....and nothing the past year has changed that

E. other...please elaborate


^you mean this one?

it was split into 2 different pols by the mods and was on both the main racing forum aas well as the biz forum.......

currently about 15% picked A.... please don't paint the 85% of AOWR that frequent the forums as not smart enough to interpret the poll as they see fit and voice there opinion as to there personal concerns regarding the state and future of the sport...

[Jacques]

Jacques, Miatanut:

CW come back, all is forgiven.

Oh, I am here. I am not going away. The problem is that not many new fans are trying to get in here.
The topic was whether or not things were better off, and I do not believe they are.

[Jag_Warrior]

Oh, I am here. I am not going away. The problem is that not many new fans are trying to get in here.
The topic was whether or not things were better off, and I do not believe they are.



Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago?


In the world of open wheel, or just the little corner that AOWR occupies?

I think that the IRL could go t!ts up next season and the world of open wheel could still be doing just fine. What happens here just isn't that big a deal in the big picture (anymore).

[indycool]

That's what I'm saying, Ken, you're a master of setting those up to interpret any way you want them to.

Question B is the point, and it has drawn the most voters in the edition of the poll that I dug out.

"The merger (which it was not) has resparked my excitement for the sport."

"but....."

Okay, how do YOU want to count 'em. Do the "buts" outnumber the "resparks?" IMO, no way to tell. But you knew that.

[CCWS77]

Is 2009 looking better then 2007?

Honestly stop and imagine all possible ways the split could have ended. The one we got is the most destructive and least reconcilliatory possible. OW was better off last year because there was a chance of either:

A) IRL going bust and the I500 added to CCWS schedule or
B) a real merger based on actually creating the best race series out of the parts of both in a way that didnt burn teams and tracks

Either one of those scenarios would have been a real change in the status quo of the sport. Instead, with the destruction of Champ Car, both of those possibilities are gone and the IRL continues largely on the same path it was already on. The path which includes copying what CC had done a couple years earlier and eating CC's leftovers including races.

Everyone talks about the momentum and building of the IRL now. At this point the IRL is still trying to reinvent the wheel and build what CC already had. Nexy year it will add a few races CC had. Slowly it will add a few other things CC had. Working to rebuild things you flushed down the toilet is a mighty strange definition of progress. You can argue the IRL organization economically and politically "won", and unification is necessary to move forward, but it hardly looks succesful in the grand scheme of things when it is on a path that the breakout year 2011 with the new car in the IRL will look just like CCWS in 2007 - at best.


Yes, we know. CCWS/CART was so much more popular than the IRL. Why they went out of business twice is a mystery.

Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better. But perhaps you're forgetting the IRL got paid to race, CCWS had to self promote. The IRL got paid to be on TV. CCWS had to buy air time. The IRL had Honda and the Indy 500 in it's corner. CCWS had, well, Kevin wallet & the San Jose GP.


I dont think your argument is proving the point you think it is. One series had grass root support and the other had media and corporate support. It is pretty obvious. How the hell do you think anyone showed up to CCWS events considering there was zero advertisement or media coverage and little sponsorship? We all know you can get free tickets to the IRL and that was not really possible with CCWS. That the IRL had similiar or worse attendence with all these publicity advantages should be a huge red flag. Rewriting history to say CC had no fans doesnt accomplish much unless you are trying to explain away why they didnt show up to IRL events in 2008

[SarahFan]

That's what I'm saying, Ken, you're a master of setting those up to interpret any way you want them to.

Question B is the point, and it has drawn the most voters in the edition of the poll that I dug out.

"The merger (which it was not) has resparked my excitement for the sport."

"but....."

Okay, how do YOU want to count 'em. Do the "buts" outnumber the "resparks?" IMO, no way to tell. But you knew that.


wow....I find your faith in the intelligence of the fan base of NAOWR that frequent the forums rather demeaning..... I wonder if I'm alone?


personnally I believe the folks at TF are smart enough to interpret a simple poll...... the over 100 responses support that IMO

[Bob Riebe]

In the world of open wheel, or just the little corner that AOWR occupies?

I think that the IRL could go t!ts up next season and the world of open wheel could still be doing just fine. What happens here just isn't that big a deal in the big picture (anymore).
The IRL is/was not an important element, neither was AAA, USAC or CART, the INDIANAPOLIS 500 is.

IF that goes under, beyond short tracks and drag racing, pro-motor racing WILL stand up and notice as it sends a message to those who spend buck in motor sports as loud as the recent wall street debacle.

[jarrambide]

I fully agree with Ken. Sorry but it's true. IRL fans who were diehard oval fans are royally pissed at the way the series is becoming more and more like Cart.
Thats a fact.
Once turbos come,,,, forget it. They may leave forever.

I lose power for a week and you guys start to make the forum interesting again.

All 40 of them?
Weren't all 30 of us die hard CC fans supposed to leave forever also?

CC wasn't working at all, IRL wasn't working at all, CART had many successful years, it makes sense trying to be as close as what used to work, I don't like ovals, IRL die hard fans don't like road racing, we will either accept the new IndyCar or move on, as easy as that.

[jarrambide]

The IRL is/was not an important element, neither was AAA, USAC or CART, the INDIANAPOLIS 500 is.

IF that goes under, beyond short tracks and drag racing, pro-motor racing WILL stand up and notice as it sends a message to those who spend buck in motor sports as loud as the recent wall street debacle.

Excuse me?, then how come IRL ratings and attendance numbers are not even close to what CART had in their glory days while having the only important element?, how come CC ratings and attendance numbers couldn't come close to the numbers CART had during their last years without the 500?

The 500 is not the only important element and is not even the element that makes or destroys a series, the IRL prove that, CC and IRL models didn't work, we need a model that will work regardless of having or not having the 500.

[Miatanut]

The IRL is/was not an important element, neither was AAA, USAC or CART, the INDIANAPOLIS 500 is.

I thought Nigel taking his F1 championship to CART to give Frank Williams the finger indicated that CART was an important element.

[Miatanut]

Is 2009 looking better then 2007?

Honestly stop and imagine all possible ways the split could have ended. The one we got is the most destructive and least reconcilliatory possible. OW was better off last year because there was a chance of either:

A) IRL going bust and the I500 added to CCWS schedule or
B) a real merger based on actually creating the best race series out of the parts of both in a way that didnt burn teams and tracks

I don't think A was ever a possibility. I always thought it CCWS would go down first because NOBODY had the commitment to the battle that Tony had. In addition, in my opinion, if for some reason CCWS had a brilliant plan, funded it well, and executed brilliantly so that it started rivaling the IRL for TV numbers, the Daytona Mafia would have provided boat loads of money to Tony to keep the split going, since they were making great profit off it.

As for B, I think that was totally an option. Tony knew he was in the catbird seat six months before the season started, because it was obvious the Amigos commitment to the battle was gone. He could have worked out a deal where he would be the boss, but the thing would otherwise look like a merger of equals. They would have time to move some dates around, informing the protesting venues that both series were financially on the rocks (it hasn't exactly been a secret that Tony has been propping the IRL up) and if they didn't work out a deal, both series would declare bankruptcy and they would lose their race date anyway. They could have done some computer modeling to figure out what boost levels to run the DP01 to make it equivalent to the Dallara on all but the superspeedways, and six months may have been enough time to do a superspeedway wing set and tunnels for it.

A million messy problems to solve, but with some resolve, it could have been done. The result would then have been even diehard Tony-haters like me would have been on board. It would have been the best racing we have seen in years, with two cars designed to entirely different specs ducking it out. Dallaras passing on the straights, DP01s passing in the braking zones and curves. Kind of like the P1 Audi and P2 Porsche ducking it out in ALMS. The teams from the two warring series going wheel-to-wheel on the same track! Talk about publicity spin! We would know before the season started that an IRL team was destined to win the championship, but it would have been fun to see how many races former CCWS teams would win in equipment they were familiar with (except for the reduced boost).

An opportunity squandered.

[Miatanut]

Excuse me?, then how come IRL ratings and attendance numbers are not even close to what CART had in their glory days while having the only important element?

Because Major League Baseball expanded teams so there are more games to choose from, there are now a couple competing Ice Capades touring shows, the NFL has moved the beginning of the season up, there is now Big Brother and lots of other fabulous TV shows to choose from, although global warming is just fiction ;) , the the weather at most events has been hotter, higher gas prices, etc., etc., etc.

I'm sure I missed a bunch of reasons, but you get the drift.

[Wilf]

The 500 is not the only important element and is not even the element that makes or destroys a series, the IRL prove that, CC and IRL models didn't work, we need a model that will work regardless of having or not having the 500.

Good luck with coming up with that model. Open wheel racing in the US has been centered around the Indianapolis 500 for nearly 100 years. It is the way people know open wheel racing in the US; open wheel, what? Oh, you mean Indy cars!

Why would you want to discard to one thing that has survived the various sanctioning wars. Or, are you saying to succeed, it has to be without TG?

[SarahFan]

I must be reading the other poll you started. I can't find that one. I'm talking about the one with five selections.


I just reread the responses....and it occured to me... I posted that poll before the Vs announcement....

based on the realitive negativity surrounding the new Tv deal you have got to wonder if the 15% that voted 'A' would be even lower at this point

[indycool]

Based on "the merger has resparked my excitement for the sport," maybe there are more "Bs," too.

[SarahFan]

Based on "the merger has resparked my excitement for the sport," maybe there are more "Bs," too.

discount it all you like..... but race fans are smart enough to negotiate whether there interpretation is a 'merger' a 'melding"...or a blending

[chuck34]

As someone (maybe the only one still around) that likes/liked the original IRL, I think I might weigh in here. I think the AOWR landscape is probably better now than last year. That being said, I'm not happy about it. Maybe my opinion might reflect that of the people Ken and IC are talking about, althought I don't really got to that site.

I think that when the IRL adopted the engine lease deal, it killed the whole thing. That pushed a lot of the small teams out. Most of the guy that were comming up from midget, sprints, etc went elsewhere. I don't mind most road courses, and a few street races are ok. It's the lack of guys I've heard of racing that bugs me. It was cool when a guy like Tony Stewert or JJ Yealy, etc. who I had seen at my local track got their shot at Indy.

That is the real downward spiral of AWOR, the lack of name recognition. Many here have pointed out that "the heyday" of the early 90's was really the beginning of the end no matter what else happened later. Ratings/interest had started to slip a bit. The wake-up call was, or at least should have been, loosing Jeff Gordon to NASCAR. That along with the retirements of AJ, Mario, Rick, Al, and others ment that IndyCar had lost much of it's connection to USAC. Wether you guys see it or not that was and always has been the core fanbase of Indycar. That got fractured and split up in the early 90's. That is one of the reasons why the IRL was founded. Then, as I said, engine leases came in and killed all that again.

I'm pretty sure that every one here will disagree with me, so go ahead and pick me apart.

[SarahFan]

As someone (maybe the only one still around) that likes/liked the original IRL, I think I might weigh in here. I think the AOWR landscape is probably better now than last year. That being said, I'm not happy about it. Maybe my opinion might reflect that of the people Ken and IC are talking about, althought I don't really got to that site.

I think that when the IRL adopted the engine lease deal, it killed the whole thing. That pushed a lot of the small teams out. Most of the guy that were comming up from midget, sprints, etc went elsewhere. I don't mind most road courses, and a few street races are ok. It's the lack of guys I've heard of racing that bugs me. It was cool when a guy like Tony Stewert or JJ Yealy, etc. who I had seen at my local track got their shot at Indy.

That is the real downward spiral of AWOR, the lack of name recognition. Many here have pointed out that "the heyday" of the early 90's was really the beginning of the end no matter what else happened later. Ratings/interest had started to slip a bit. The wake-up call was, or at least should have been, loosing Jeff Gordon to NASCAR. That along with the retirements of AJ, Mario, Rick, Al, and others ment that IndyCar had lost much of it's connection to USAC. Wether you guys see it or not that was and always has been the core fanbase of Indycar. That got fractured and split up in the early 90's. That is one of the reasons why the IRL was founded. Then, as I said, engine leases came in and killed all that again.

I'm pretty sure that every one here will disagree with me, so go ahead and pick me apart.

I think your far from the only one around who liked the original IRL.....

[garyshell]

I think your far from the only one around who liked the original IRL.....


Or CART, or CCWS. But what's the point of this? None of them exist any longer. All of them, INCLUDING the original IRL are a thing of the past. Time to move on.

Gary

[chuck34]

Gary, I guess that was sort of my point. Granted I tend to ramble a bit. CART, CC, original IRL are all dead and gone. Everyone is crying about how CART/CC was so superior and why doesn't the IRL adopt what they did. I just want to point out that some may think that the original IRL was better and the current IRL should go back to that or something simmilar. I tried to give some logical reasoning as to why, but sometimes I don't make very concise points.

At any rate, what we have isn't too bad and I'll continue to watch just as I watched CC and IRL last year.