Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago?

[jarrambide]

Good luck with coming up with that model. Open wheel racing in the US has been centered around the Indianapolis 500 for nearly 100 years. It is the way people know open wheel racing in the US; open wheel, what? Oh, you mean Indy cars!

Why would you want to discard to one thing that has survived the various sanctioning wars. Or, are you saying to succeed, it has to be without TG?
I never said I want to discard the 500 or that I want TG to go away, my original response was to a commentary that stated that the 500 is the only thing that counts, which is false, the 500 does not guarantees a successful series, the 500 is not the element that is needed to fix OW racing, I[m not saying we don[t need the 500, I'm just saying we need a model that works, CC and IRL models failed miserably, without a new model that works OW will go away with or without the 500, with or without TG.

TG and the new IndyCar is what we have now, so TG and his team is the only hope we have left, hopefully he will find a new model.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Based on "the merger has resparked my excitement for the sport," maybe there are more "Bs," too.

BULL!

[indycool]

Oh.

[downtowndeco]

I never said I want to discard the 500 or that I want TG to go away, my original response was to a commentary that stated that the 500 is the only thing that counts, which is false, the 500 does not guarantees a successful series, the 500 is not the element that is needed to fix OW racing, I[m not saying we don[t need the 500, I'm just saying we need a model that works, CC and IRL models failed miserably, without a new model that works OW will go away with or without the 500, with or without TG.

TG and the new IndyCar is what we have now, so TG and his team is the only hope we have left, hopefully he will find a new model.

CART did fail, as did CCWS. The IRL, however, is still around and there is no way to judge how well it's business model really works because for 13 years they've been in brutal hand to hand combat with a direct competitor.

Let's give the IRL 3 or 4 years to see how they can do when they don't have to spend half of their time dodging hand grenades. So far car count is up, most rides have sponsors, most of the races are staying as are the stars, and attendance and TV numbers were up or stable in a year when most others were down.

[SarahFan]

CART did fail, as did CCWS. The IRL, however, is still around and there is no way to judge how well it's business model really works because for 13 years they've been in brutal hand to hand combat with a direct competitor.

Let's give the IRL 3 or 4 years to see how they can do when they don't have to spend half of their time dodging hand grenades. So far car count is up, most rides have sponsors, most of the races are staying as are the stars, and attendance and TV numbers were up or stable in a year when most others were down.

there's always next year... or the year after.. or after


right!?!?

[Bob Riebe]

Excuse me?, then how come IRL ratings and attendance numbers are not even close to what CART had in their glory days while having the only important element?, how come CC ratings and attendance numbers couldn't come close to the numbers CART had during their last years without the 500?

The 500 is not the only important element and is not even the element that makes or destroys a series, the IRL prove that, CC and IRL models didn't work, we need a model that will work regardless of having or not having the 500.
ROFL-- Yeah right.

As you are attached to ratings, give me a U.S. open wheel race equal the Indianapolis 500, for even one day, not to mention the whole week-end or month.
Indy has falled, absolutely, but no one else even came close to it, in its worse day.
Odd, CART and CC are dead, the IRL is not; oh heck the race in Indianapolis is not the reason.

As to your last sentence does not work, never has, and never will, EVER.

[Bob Riebe]

As someone (maybe the only one still around) that likes/liked the original IRL, I think I might weigh in here. I think the AOWR landscape is probably better now than last year. That being said, I'm not happy about it. Maybe my opinion might reflect that of the people Ken and IC are talking about, althought I don't really got to that site.

I think that when the IRL adopted the engine lease deal, it killed the whole thing. That pushed a lot of the small teams out. Most of the guy that were comming up from midget, sprints, etc went elsewhere. I don't mind most road courses, and a few street races are ok. It's the lack of guys I've heard of racing that bugs me. It was cool when a guy like Tony Stewert or JJ Yealy, etc. who I had seen at my local track got their shot at Indy.

That is the real downward spiral of AWOR, the lack of name recognition. Many here have pointed out that "the heyday" of the early 90's was really the beginning of the end no matter what else happened later. Ratings/interest had started to slip a bit. The wake-up call was, or at least should have been, loosing Jeff Gordon to NASCAR. That along with the retirements of AJ, Mario, Rick, Al, and others ment that IndyCar had lost much of it's connection to USAC. Wether you guys see it or not that was and always has been the core fanbase of Indycar. That got fractured and split up in the early 90's. That is one of the reasons why the IRL was founded. Then, as I said, engine leases came in and killed all that again.

I'm pretty sure that every one here will disagree with me, so go ahead and pick me apart.
You are not alone, I like the original concept, (minus the 25/8, and you had to be allowed to build an engine or chassis) and I agree the engine lease bs, was the straw that broke it.

[Jag_Warrior]

The IRL, however, is still around and there is no way to judge how well it's business model really works because for 13 years they've been in brutal hand to hand combat with a direct competitor.

Since when are business models NOT judged based on their success versus direct competition??? How else would you judge them?!

Maybe GM really isn't doing so bad. If only Honda, Toyota, Ford and Chrysler would just leave them alone, then could we judge how well the GM business model works. Uhhhh....OK. :D

[downtowndeco]

Since when are business models NOT judged based on their success versus direct competition??? How else would you judge them?!

Maybe GM really isn't doing so bad. If only Honda, Toyota, Ford and Chrysler would just leave them alone, then could we judge how well the GM business model works. Uhhhh....OK. :D

Because there was only so much to go around. The competition was artifically kept on life support many years past the time when it should have naturally expired. It's like two moronic hot dog vendors fighting tooth and nail, spending untold wads of cash fighting over the potential customers at a construction site. With both still in business there could be no "winner". Now that there is only one there is a chance they can make a legitimate go at it.

[SarahFan]

like two moronic hot dog vendors .


that about sums it up

[indycool]

The competition in this sport was INTERNAL, in one sandbox. Now, the focus on the competition, whatever value that it has, is EXTERNAL toward golf, tennis, football, dancing, etc.

Jag, in your example, if Pontiac and Chevrolet were beating each other up instead of being part of GM competing with the others, it'd be the same thing.

[Rex Monaco]

It's like two moronic hot dog vendors fighting tooth and nail, spending untold wads of cash fighting over the potential customers at a construction site. With both still in business there could be no "winner". Now that there is only one there is a chance they can make a legitimate go at it.

But as you point out, the "winner" in this story is still a moron.

[Rex Monaco]

The competition in this sport was INTERNAL, in one sandbox. Now, the focus on the competition, whatever value that it has, is EXTERNAL toward golf, tennis, football, dancing, etc.

Jag, in your example, if Pontiac and Chevrolet were beating each other up instead of being part of GM competing with the others, it'd be the same thing.

So let's make the IRL Saturn and CART Oldsmobile.

Saturn started out with a new approach on how to make and sell car's. Oldsmobile was attempting to reinvent itself as a Eurostyle marque.

Oldsmobile died and Saturn is now almost exclusively selling European cars.

So the the money that was spent starting Saturn might have been better spent by fixing Oldsmobile.

[SarahFan]

But as you point out, the "winner" in this story is still a moron.

the question now: did that go over his head too fast for him to have any idea what you said, or was it so far up he had no idea it went by at all?

[garyshell]

The competition was artifically kept on life support many years past the time when it should have naturally expired.

I think the reality of the situation is that the first clause can describe BOTH sides of the "competition". Both of them were on life support. I am not going to enter into ANY discussion of which one(s) should or should not have naturally expired. And I invite my brethren here to abstain from that point as well. It would serve no purpose.

Gary

[CCWS77]

Because there was only so much to go around. The competition was artifically kept on life support many years past the time when it should have naturally expired. It's like two moronic hot dog vendors fighting tooth and nail, spending untold wads of cash fighting over the potential customers at a construction site. With both still in business there could be no "winner". Now that there is only one there is a chance they can make a legitimate go at it.

Some of us are not invested in the hot dog stand. We are the workers just trying to eat lunch. We don't have to buy anything from this one deranged hot dog vendor who is left.



I think the reality of the situation is that the first clause can describe BOTH sides of the "competition". Both of them were on life support. I am not going to enter into ANY discussion of which one(s) should or should not have naturally expired. And I invite my brethren here to abstain from that point as well. It would serve no purpose.
Gary

You see no value in a discussion about which product might have naturally expired and which would have succeeded if not for all this BS? In other words, you are invested in the political and economic outcome not the actual product as a fan or consumer.


Perhaps the problem was never that there were 2 vendors but that they were obsessed with killing the other instead of actually improving thier product. Now one is dead and the one left thinks he wins by default even though he still sells crap. I dont believe it If you tell me we must support this vendor or else no one else will ever set up another cart to sell us lunch. The basis of the failures in this hot dog CART industry was specifically these crazy owners stabbing each other in the back over the years and sabotaging each others hot dogs. The best way to get new investment is to extricate them from the scene with assurances they will never interfere in this industry again.

[indycool]

No, you don't hafta buy it. You can play golf instead, or tennis, or go to the movies. That's your choice. Watching CART or CC is no longer a choice because they don't exist.

As Gary said, it doesn't matter. We have one series now. Some of us are very pleased with that....the same folks running at Indy are running at Long Beach and the same folks running at Long Beach are running at Toronto and the same folks running at Toronto are running at Chicagoland, etc.

[garyshell]

You see no value in a discussion about which product might have naturally expired and which would have succeeded if not for all this BS? In other words, you are invested in the political and economic outcome not the actual product as a fan or consumer.

That's right. I see no value in such a discussion, because one expired and one now exists and rehashing whether the right one is dead versus alive will change nothing. Don't put YOUR words in my mouth. I reject your spin that I am invested in the political outcome, just because I don't see the point of flogging a dead horse.




Perhaps the problem was never that there were 2 vendors but that they were obsessed with killing the other instead of actually improving their product. Now one is dead and the one left thinks he wins by default even though he still sells crap. I dint believe it If you tell me we must support this vendor or else no one else will ever set up another cart to sell us lunch. The basis of the failures in this hot dog CART industry was specifically these crazy owners stabbing each other in the back over the years. The best way to get new investment is to extricate them from the scene with assurances they will never interfere in this industry again.

Well just who do you think is going to step forward and sell you open wheel hot dogs and attempt to usurp TG from his thrown? If you REALLY think there is someone out there willing to start another series that does NOT include 16th and Georgetown and try to figure out how to attract Madison Ave, without that venue I think you are delusional.

Gary

[chuck34]

Rex, your Saturn/Olds comparison is just about spot on. Someone within the GM world saw that Olds had a problem (TG goes to the CART board and says, you guys are off the tracks I want to help). Olds says we don't have a problem, go away (CART boad tells TG to f' off, we don't want to give you a seat at the table). The guy at GM says fine we'll go start Saturn and do things our way (TG starts the IRL). Olds continues it's inevitable downward spiral to oblivion (CART/CC goes belly up). Saturn continues to make cars the way they have always wanted to (TG/IRL carry on).

Oh and by the way Toyota (NASCAR) has continued to grow more and more

Sounds about right to me.

[Miatanut]

No, you don't hafta buy it. You can play golf instead, or tennis, or go to the movies. That's your choice. Watching CART or CC is no longer a choice because they don't exist.
Or we can watch F1 (not American, so we're getting a wrap instead of a hot dog) and ALMS (not open wheel, so we're getting a sub sandwhich instead of a hot dog), and what's left will continue racing in front of empty stands and geting sub-1.0 ratings, which is what I think you will find happening.

Those Kielbasas we used to enjoy a few years ago were really good, so we will continue pining for those and hope somebody shows up with a new Kielbasa stand.

[indycool]

Sure....places like Indy and Texas are empty. And Richmond. And Kansas. And Edmonton. And Iowa....And.....but if you want F1 and kielbasa, that's your choice, too. If you do, why grump about Indycar?

[Bob Riebe]

This has turned into a thread about who has the most potent pixie dust, good grief.

[Jag_Warrior]

The competition in this sport was INTERNAL, in one sandbox. Now, the focus on the competition, whatever value that it has, is EXTERNAL toward golf, tennis, football, dancing, etc.

Jag, in your example, if Pontiac and Chevrolet were beating each other up instead of being part of GM competing with the others, it'd be the same thing.

In order for competition to be internal, both series would have had to be under the same umbrella organization. That wasn't the case.

As you mentioned Pontiac and Chevrolet, those brands do compete against each other, though not tooth and nail. But a transaction where Pontiac loses a buyer to Chevy, or Chevy loses a buyer to Pontiac still kicks money upstairs to GM. In that case, there is one sandbox, it is called General Motors. Competing for a particular market segment does not make the competition internal.

The competition between Champ Car and the IRL was no more internal than the competition between the IHRA and NHRA or ALMS and Grand Am... or the IRL and NASCAR. The only "shared" factors that I can think of between the two series were the teams and fans that preferred open wheel formula car racing. In that respect, I agree that having one open wheel formula car series over two is a benefit to the survivor. There is now one less (weak) competitor. But the two warring series did not split the fan base. They chased away a great portion of the fanbase and only spilt what was left. Half of the combined TV audience tuned out or turned away.

What will happen going forward, and how the IRL will try to rebuild a fanbase, I have no idea. And indeed, the past is the past. But there continues to be a misguided belief that the IRL and CCWS just had each other to worry about... and only now can the survivor move forward. Hopefully they're not a day late and a dollar short.

[beachbum]

This has turned into a thread about who has the most potent pixie dust, good grief.Without a doubt. Fighting a war that was over a year ago.

[Mark in Oshawa]

After almost a year away from this board with the odd visit here and there, I always thought the bitterness of the war was going away. The last 10 to 15 posts tell me among us hardcore stalwarts, it has not. Is that a shame? Maybe....depends on how much the ex CARTfans pay attention to the IRL and do they watch?

As for me, I was a CART/CCWS guy and bemoan Tony's decision in 94 to open up this can of worms. That said, the logic of one series fighting for the same group of fans versus two was always inescapable to me and I said so. To keep this feud going now is just pointless. It is over. We get our hotdogs from 16th and Georgetown now and there is only other food choices. I am a full blown race fan, and I can watch or enjoy all forms of it. I was never really a big fan of the pack racing on cookie cutter ovals by the IRL but with addition of Toronto, Long Beach, Edmonton, and Surfer's I am now a fan who can find something I like in the IRL. That doesn't mitigate the mitigate this mistrust I have of TG's marketing instincts (Gene Simmons anyone?) or the visceral dislike I have of the design of the race car (the DP01 was a very pleasing design to look at)but it is what it is. I am an IRL fan because I am a racing fan. There is a lot I don't like and a lot I do like. I could say the same about the ALMS and NASCAR as well. We all watch racing for different reasons so there are no invalid opinions but I do wish people would just get with reality. There is no point in killing each other over the wars of the past. It is over.......and some of us have to let it go....

[downtowndeco]

Very nicely put. I'm at the point where I really enjoyed this past season. I was OK w/the new CC venues that got added, even though I'm more of an oval fan. I understood they needed to be added.

I'm looking forward w/optimisim to the 09 season. I've started using the "ignore" feature rather than getting into a rehash of past history w/every fan who wishes the early 90's were still here. I'll never convince them and they'll never convince me.

Things are good and looking better every day. Here's to a great 09 season!





After almost a year away from this board with the odd visit here and there, I always thought the bitterness of the war was going away. The last 10 to 15 posts tell me among us hardcore stalwarts, it has not. Is that a shame? Maybe....depends on how much the ex CARTfans pay attention to the IRL and do they watch?

As for me, I was a CART/CCWS guy and bemoan Tony's decision in 94 to open up this can of worms. That said, the logic of one series fighting for the same group of fans versus two was always inescapable to me and I said so. To keep this feud going now is just pointless. It is over. We get our hotdogs from 16th and Georgetown now and there is only other food choices. I am a full blown race fan, and I can watch or enjoy all forms of it. I was never really a big fan of the pack racing on cookie cutter ovals by the IRL but with addition of Toronto, Long Beach, Edmonton, and Surfer's I am now a fan who can find something I like in the IRL. That doesn't mitigate the mitigate this mistrust I have of TG's marketing instincts (Gene Simmons anyone?) or the visceral dislike I have of the design of the race car (the DP01 was a very pleasing design to look at)but it is what it is. I am an IRL fan because I am a racing fan. There is a lot I don't like and a lot I do like. I could say the same about the ALMS and NASCAR as well. We all watch racing for different reasons so there are no invalid opinions but I do wish people would just get with reality. There is no point in killing each other over the wars of the past. It is over.......and some of us have to let it go....

[indycool]

Fine post, Mark.....

[SarahFan]

so really what it comes down too for the three of you is that since we saw an improved on-track product in 08' the biz of the sport should be off-limits..

well i call bullC@&* on that

[garyshell]

After almost a year away from this board with the odd visit here and there, I always thought the bitterness of the war was going away. The last 10 to 15 posts tell me among us hardcore stalwarts, it has not. Is that a shame? Maybe....depends on how much the ex CARTfans pay attention to the IRL and do they watch?

As for me, I was a CART/CCWS guy and bemoan Tony's decision in 94 to open up this can of worms. That said, the logic of one series fighting for the same group of fans versus two was always inescapable to me and I said so. To keep this feud going now is just pointless. It is over. We get our hotdogs from 16th and Georgetown now and there is only other food choices. I am a full blown race fan, and I can watch or enjoy all forms of it. I was never really a big fan of the pack racing on cookie cutter ovals by the IRL but with addition of Toronto, Long Beach, Edmonton, and Surfer's I am now a fan who can find something I like in the IRL. That doesn't mitigate the mitigate this mistrust I have of TG's marketing instincts (Gene Simmons anyone?) or the visceral dislike I have of the design of the race car (the DP01 was a very pleasing design to look at)but it is what it is. I am an IRL fan because I am a racing fan. There is a lot I don't like and a lot I do like. I could say the same about the ALMS and NASCAR as well. We all watch racing for different reasons so there are no invalid opinions but I do wish people would just get with reality. There is no point in killing each other over the wars of the past. It is over.......and some of us have to let it go....


Oh, come on Mark you are just making WAY too much sense (as always). Your description of your feelings fits me almost exactly. There are, unfortunately, a handful of folks here who still can't let ANY slight pass them without retaliation. The sooner THEY grow up the better.

Gary

[garyshell]

so really what it comes down too for the three of you is that since we saw an improved on-track product in 08' the biz of the sport should be off-limits..

well i call bullC@&* on that


And I call bullC@&* on your portrayal of anyone else's disagreement with you as a black and white, either/or, situation. You are just so ready to dismiss what someone else says with a "well then you just don't want to talk about it" answer. Stop putting words into other folks mouths.

Gary

[SarahFan]

perhaps it's time to set-up a sub forum like TF

where Fans of the IRL can discuss both the On-track racing.... as well as the off-track Biz aspects


it's obvios that a few posters don't want the biz discussed, well maybe not so obvios as the bulk of there posts are on Biz threads....strange? not really

[SarahFan]

And I call bullC@&* on your portrayal of anyone else's disagreement with you as a black and white, either/or, situation. You are just so ready to dismiss what someone else says with a "well then you just don't want to talk about it" answer. Stop putting words into other folks mouths.

Gary

come on gary .....it's exactly what there saying

[garyshell]

come on gary .....it's exactly what there saying


According to Ken, the great arbiter of what other folks MEAN by the words they write. Give it a rest Ken, you DON'T know what other folks are THINKING.

Gary

[SarahFan]

According to Ken, the great arbiter of what other folks MEAN by the words they write. Give it a rest Ken, you DON'T know what other folks are THINKING.

Gary


your exactly right gary.... All I have to go on is what they write.... if there not writeing what they mean ....then whats a poster to do?

[garyshell]

your exactly right gary.... All I have to go on is what they write.... if there not writeing what they mean ....then whats a poster to do?


You want specifics? Ok, how about not telling folks who are tired of all the coulda, shoulda, woulda conversation about which series should have failed, or screwed up the worst etc. that they, in your words, think "the biz of the sport should be off-limits..". None of them said that it should be off limits. Did they? YOU put those words in their mouths. Just because someone takes exception to YOUR line of reasoning doesn't mean they don't want to discuss the biz of the sport. Did you ever stop to think they just don't want to discuss it with YOU, precisely because of such comments as "so really what it comes down too for the three of you is that since we saw an improved on-track product in 08' the biz of the sport should be off-limits.."

Gary

[champcarray]

"Better off" is a tough call for me. It's good to see the teams and drivers under one roof, but I'm not a fan of the current chassis and engine formula, and the year 2011 seems so far away. To me, the choice of 2011 is being forced by an anniversary that most people don't care about and yet again subjugates the series as a whole to the elephant-in-the-room Indy 500. My take on auto racing is that yesterday is history and what really matters is the next race and the next innovation that brings a team and its drivers their temporary glory. Postponing chassis and engine innovation for years on end somehow reduces the sport in my eyes, and makes it a series of mere games. You'll notice my opinion applies to both CCWS (if it still existed) and IndyCar.

So while I don't think AOWR is worse off, it does not appear better off to me, either.

[indycool]

And I suppose giving the ex-CC teams a chance financially not to hafta buy new equipment and stabilize for an extra year financially has nothing to do with it after they had to acquire DP-01/Cosworths and Dallara/Hondas in successive years. Naw, it just couldn't have anything to do with team finances to keep the sport going forward.

[Cart750hp]

There are, unfortunately, a handful of folks here who still can't let ANY slight pass them without retaliation. The sooner THEY grow up the better.

Gary

I still doubt it, Gary. These guys grew up and lived(/s) hating IRL and TG. So what's gonna make 'em change their mind? They are too old to change! Too late for that.

Sup, Mark! Good to see you post here once in a blue moon. Thanks for summing up for us former CART/CCWS fans now with IRL.

[garyshell]

I still doubt it, Gary. These guys grew up and lived(/s) hating IRL and TG. So what's gonna make 'em change their mind? They are too old to change! Too late for that.

Sup, Mark! Good to see you post here once in a blue moon. Thanks for summing up for us former CART/CCWS fans now with IRL.


You are supposing that I was ONLY talking about ex-CCWS folks. I wasn't. There are still some on the IRL side doing the same sort of crap.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Stop putting words into other folks mouths.

Gary

That's classic. I might just use it for my signature.

[Cart750hp]

You are supposing that I was ONLY talking about ex-CCWS folks. I wasn't. There are still some on the IRL side doing the same sort of crap.

Gary

Supposing? Last time I read you arguing with an IRL fan was when we were still in CCWS forum. Now we're in IRL forum, in each thread you and us, former CCWS fans, almost have to argue with these fanatics! I agree, there are still IRL guys doing their thing but when was the last time? It's more of the fanatics, is what you're talking about, Gary.

PS Look at the post before me....exactly what I'm talking about.

[SarahFan]

You want specifics? Ok, how about not telling folks who are tired of all the coulda, shoulda, woulda conversation about which series should have failed, or screwed up the worst etc. that they, in your words, think "the biz of the sport should be off-limits..". None of them said that it should be off limits. Did they? YOU put those words in their mouths. Just because someone takes exception to YOUR line of reasoning doesn't mean they don't want to discuss the biz of the sport. Did you ever stop to think they just don't want to discuss it with YOU, precisely because of such comments as "so really what it comes down too for the three of you is that since we saw an improved on-track product in 08' the biz of the sport should be off-limits.."

Gary


yawn....you can do better than that gary

[Rex Monaco]

PS Look at the post before me....exactly what I'm talking about.

Then evidently you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Jacques]

Oh, come on Mark you are just making WAY too much sense (as always). Your description of your feelings fits me almost exactly. There are, unfortunately, a handful of folks here who still can't let ANY slight pass them without retaliation. The sooner THEY grow up the better.

Gary
Unfortunately, this thread has nothing to do with "feelings."
It was about whether or not OWR was better off than it was last year. Anytime someone says "no," that poster is accused of harboring hate or of being immature :confused:

[Rex Monaco]

Anytime someone says "no," that poster is accused of harboring hate or of being immature :confused:

It's just like modern American politics. You are labeled a fascist or socialist or some other inflammatory name for disgreeing with the other sides opinion.

[indycool]

Well, guess you guys can read some of your own posts to figure out why others draw that conclusion.

[Rex Monaco]

Well, guess you guys can read some of your own posts to figure out why others draw that conclusion.

I would draw the conclusion that those who start calling other people names are those who are ill-equipped to refute what has been written.

[Rex Monaco]

Not until you change you faith with TG, you'll have a hard-time expressing your opinion here.

One could conclude that you are part of a personality cult, for placing your unquestioning faith in TG and requiring others to do the same before they can express their opinion. But you really aren't part of a personality cult, are you?

And is this really what you guys want this forum to be infamous for? Shouting down decent, calling people names and placing groups of people on ignore because you don't agree with their opinions?

[indycool]

No, Rex, we had 12 years of banal forum shelling of TG which continues at CW and is a bit weaker at other fora, it's one series now, times have changed and some of us are a bit tired of reading what an incompetent idiot TG is instead of germane comments and ideas about the IRL and top-level open-wheel racing.

[champcarray]

For me personally this isn't CCWS vs ICS. I prefer engine and chassis specs over a spec engine and chassis. I also preferred the look of the DP01 and the sound of the turbo 6, but I didn't enjoy seeing an entire field of them. I understand that the recently-CCWS teams have been given financial assistance and know they are better off for it, and that spec series in general benefit from lower costs, but I am also concerned about how many teams and cars can meet the bell next year (and 2010 and 2011...) without help. I've been a fan for 30+ years and those are my thoughts.

[Rex Monaco]

No, Rex, we had 12 years of banal forum shelling of TG which continues at CW and is a bit weaker at other fora, it's one series now, times have changed and some of us are a bit tired of reading what an incompetent idiot TG is instead of germane comments and ideas about the IRL and top-level open-wheel racing.

So one can't be a NASCAR fan, unless they refrain from criticising the France famliy? And one can't enjoy F1 if they choose criticise Bernie?

Sorry, I disgree.

I think one can be a race fan and criticise it's leaders when and where it is warranted.

[indycool]

Criticism of the IRL or its leaders are one thing. Name-calling or slander of the IRL or its leaders are another. As the mods say at every forum, "it's how you say it."

[Jacques]

Well, guess you guys can read some of your own posts to figure out why others draw that conclusion.

Is it because you are afraid of being told the truth ?
Is it a requirement to agree that OWR is better off now ?

It is one series and that is all we have to watch in the US, as far as OW is concerned. But, that does not mean that we MUST accept the premise that "things are better off now."

[Rex Monaco]

Criticism of the IRL or its leaders are one thing. Name-calling or slander of the IRL or its leaders are another. As the mods say at every forum, "it's how you say it."

The way I said it, was that I don't think the last 12 years have shown that TG has what is required to fix AOWR.

Is that slander or name calling? And does that warrant the slander and name calling directed towards me? I think not.

[F1boat]

Oh, Champ Car fans again. Look bitter that their series has died.
Ouch.

[Lemmy-Boy]

One year later, the status remains the same. Unless the NASCAR juggernaut suddenly vanishes, AOWR is STILL DEAD.

And yes, the VERSUS network is just another swan song for the IRL.

[indycool]

It isn't one year later. It's February to September.

[jarrambide]

I don't see this thread going anywhere, constructive criticism left this thread a long time ago, I'm closing this one.