Is KERS to be delayed next season...to next season? [Archive]

11th September 2008, 17:11

Everyone will be running to the same rules so why change it? They have had plenty of time to get organised.

Where does Simon say it should be changed or delayed?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70466

"Ferrari's engine technical director Gilles Simon says the Italian squad are struggling with the development of the Kinetic Energy Recovery System.

KERS will be introduced in Formula One next season, but some teams have been having a hard time with the initial development and some doubt it will be ready in time for the start of 2009.

Simon backed the view that it is unlikely all teams will have a reliable system at the start of the season, and the Frenchman admitted his own team are struggling to come to grips with it

"The Kinetic Energy Recovery System is a complex subject, which finds us dealing with a lot of new and complicated areas, while ensuring that we still devote all necessary efforts into continuing our usual development programme on the current year car," said Simon.

"It will be really challenging to run this system next year. We are learning every day, but we are struggling and I think that all teams will struggle to run the new system reliably right from the opening race of the 2009 season.

"Next year, with KERS as well as the other rule change allowing the use of an electronic front flap adjuster (on the front wing,) electronics will play a very big role and the common ECU will have to be fully understood in order to operate these new elements successfully."

Simon also told Autosprint magazine that he thought not all teams will benefit from the use of KERS equally.

"Managing to recharge the system under braking shouldn't be taken for granted," he said. "Just like the system's reliability shouldn't be taken for granted. Same goes for that 80-BHP figure seen in the race, will that be the same at the end of the race?"

"Those who get the project right will have an enormous advantage on their hands."

So, exactly why have you come to the conclusion, based on bugger all, that the FIA will delay it?

Big Ben

11th September 2008, 19:35

McLaren and Ferrari fighting for the 4th place... maaaan! wouldn't that be great? if kers can do that I'll put it on my computer too.

jens

11th September 2008, 21:26

McLaren and Ferrari fighting for the 4th place... maaaan! wouldn't that be great? if kers can do that I'll put it on my computer too.

I don't think so. Whatever the rule changes have been, usually we haven't witnessed unusual teams at the top.

Daniel

11th September 2008, 22:30

I don't think so. Whatever the rule changes have been, usually we haven't witnessed unusual teams at the top.
This isn't a normal rulechange though. This is something totally different and I think there is definitely the chance of seeing one team who is not usually near the top make a good job of this.

MAX_THRUST

12th September 2008, 09:29

Watch this space and what the FIA does.....

I hope we do see some unusual grids next year but most of all unusual podiums.

ioan

12th September 2008, 11:37

Now Ferrari are struggling with their KERS system can we expect the FIA to annouce a delay in its introduction?

IF Ferrari are struggleing then I imagine that the FIA will accomodate as Ferrari are the most important team in F1.

:rolleyes:

Daniel

12th September 2008, 11:43

:rolleyes:

It's like a dot to dot picture without the dots :laugh:

ioan

12th September 2008, 12:38

It's like a dot to dot picture without the dots :laugh:

:rotflmao: :up:

Daniel

12th September 2008, 12:47

:rotflmao: :up:
You know what gets me Ioan? If the teams really believe that the FIA is biased towards Ferrari they're more than welcome to go out and form their own competition......

But then what would the teams use if there was no Ferrari bias to blame for their poor performances? :confused:

;)

Knock-on

12th September 2008, 13:51

You know what gets me Ioan? If the teams really believe that the FIA is biased towards Ferrari they're more than welcome to go out and form their own competition......

But then what would the teams use if there was no Ferrari bias to blame for their poor performances? :confused:

;)

Performance doesn't seem to be the problem as he gets over the line first. It's just what happens in the courts that they struggle with ;)

Daniel

12th September 2008, 13:56

Performance doesn't seem to be the problem as he gets over the line first. It's just what happens in the courts that they struggle with ;)

Like I said if there was the bias that people keep claiming then the teams would and should go off and form their own competition.

ioan

12th September 2008, 14:02

Exactly! Who would continue to spend half a billion every year knowing that the FIA will anyway pick another team to win the championship?

Dave B

12th September 2008, 14:10

Like I said if there was the bias that people keep claiming then the teams would and should go off and form their own competition.
It would be a hollow victory to win this new series. Whatever else anybody may think of Ferrari they've been the benchmark for the last decade. Max and Bernie are right when they say that F1 needs Ferrari more than Ferrari need F1.

Daniel

12th September 2008, 14:12

Exactly! Who would continue to spend half a billion every year knowing that the FIA will anyway pick another team to win the championship?
Well if you don't win at least your fans can blame the FIA :)

Daniel

12th September 2008, 14:13

It would be a hollow victory to win this new series. Whatever else anybody may think of Ferrari they've been the benchmark for the last decade. Max and Bernie are right when they say that F1 needs Ferrari more than Ferrari need F1.

Perhaps true but if you can't win in F1 because there is bias then why try when the FIA will supposedly do anything to stop you winning?

Dave B

13th October 2008, 16:11

Just to drag up an old thread, it seems that Ferrari are still struggling with KERS:

Ferrari's technical director Aldo Costa says the Italian squad are still behind schedule with the development of their Kinetic Energy Recovery System.

KERS will be introduced in F1 at the start of 2009, but the development has been hard for many teams, who had no previous experience of the technology.

Costa admitted he would have preferred to have tested the system on track already, like some of their rivals have done.

Source & full story: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71385

V12

13th October 2008, 17:18

I'm looking forward to it, and would like to see it shake up the order at least slightly, I just think they could have freed up the regs a bit more rather than specifying a maximum amount of energy that can be regenerated.

And whats the betting that in 5-10 years time Max and/or Bernie (and yes, they still will be around then) will be creaming their pants for a common KERS system for all the teams...

Bezza

13th October 2008, 17:21

Biggest change since 1998 and on that occasion McLaren came out of the doldrums to comfortably be the quickest team. Ferrari caught them up over the course of the season, but previous winners Williams and Benetton were never the same again.

A similar change could occur in 2009, with somebody like Toyota or Red Bull getting a leap on the rest, and teams like McLaren and Ferrari could be caught playing catch up.

Knock-on

13th October 2008, 18:20

Just to drag up an old thread, it seems that Ferrari are still struggling with KERS:

Source & full story: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71385

If they really are then it will be delayed.

Simple.

Knock-on

8th January 2009, 14:12

IF Ferrari are struggleing then I imagine that the FIA will accomodate as Ferrari are the most important team in F1.

Whether they are or if this is brinkmanship will be answered at the first race.

Well, looks like Ferrari have their wish.

The FIA have done an about turn on KERS and may even drop it completely next year.

What a waste of money :(

Daniel

8th January 2009, 14:19

Well, looks like Ferrari have their wish.

The FIA have done an about turn on KERS and may even drop it completely next year.

What a waste of money :(
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72647

I think it's more to do with the prohibition of iguana based lubricants in F1 cars. Didn't see that mentioned in that article? Well I didn't see Ferrari mentioned either :D

OMFG it's McLaren and Lewis Hamilton's fault :D

8th January 2009, 14:22

The FIA have done an about turn on KERS and may even drop it completely next year.(

The FIA aren't saying that at all.

With teams believed to be considering introducing a standard system for 2010, Mosley made it clear in a letter to the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) that it was up to them what they chose to do.

However, the FIA chief also said that the governing body was in favour of banning the use of batteries for KERS.

So far, only Williams are believed to have been developing a non-battery flywheel-based KERS system, while the rest of the outfits have opted for the eletrical route.

"No team is obliged to fit KERS," wrote Mosley in the letter. "It is also open to the teams to agree on a standard system or, indeed, to agree not to fit it at all.

"We are increasingly of the view that the use of chemical storage (in particular batteries) should be prohibited in Formula One owing to the unsuitability of the batteries currently available.

"There are at least two mechanical or electro-mechanical systems under development for Formula One and there may be others as well as hydraulic systems. Formula One would benefit from systems with more capacity than the present 400KJ, 60KW, (for example maxima of: 2MJ stored, 150KW in, 100KW out) but still very small and very light, as is essential in Formula One.

"These figures are theoretically possible with mechanical devices, but not feasible in the foreseeable future using batteries and/or capacitors. Such non-chemical devices, if successfully developed, would have a very significant impact on road transport and other applications.

"This is a subject we should like to explore in depth with FOTA. In particular we should like to examine how Formula One's outstanding engineering capacity could be used to develop KERS without incurring significant costs for the teams."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72647

What is wrong with the FIA saying any of that? And where do you get them dropping KERS from in that?

Garry Walker

8th January 2009, 14:31

Well, looks like Ferrari have their wish.

The FIA have done an about turn on KERS and may even drop it completely next year.

What a waste of money :(

Why are you posting idiotic stuff that you know to be wrong?

KERS is an idiotic move by FIA, they are talking about cost cutting and now they forced teams to use millions and millions of dollars on a system that does not improve the racing at all. Especially in such financial conditions as we have now. Complete joke.

Daniel

8th January 2009, 14:33

The FIA aren't saying that at all.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72647

What is wrong with the FIA saying any of that? And where do you get them dropping KERS from in that?

What's wrong is that it's not being blamed on Ferrari!

8th January 2009, 14:42

What's wrong is that it's not being blamed on Ferrari!

Are you implying that some cretins would blame everything on Ferrari without a shred of factual evidence?

Surely not!

Daniel

8th January 2009, 14:46

Are you implying that some cretins would blame everything on Ferrari without a shred of factual evidence?

Surely not!
Of course not! What a ridiculous idea. I bet Ferrari told you to post that didn't they?

8th January 2009, 14:48

Of course not! What a ridiculous idea. I bet Ferrari told you to post that didn't they?

Damn. My secret is revealed.

Knock-on

8th January 2009, 15:07

Why are you posting idiotic stuff that you know to be wrong?

KERS is an idiotic move by FIA, they are talking about cost cutting and now they forced teams to use millions and millions of dollars on a system that does not improve the racing at all. Especially in such financial conditions as we have now. Complete joke.

:confused:

Sorry Garry, i am in complete agreement with you :confused:

I am not saying that the FIA have pandered to Ferrari's wish but merely that Ferrari have what they want. Luca has been rather vocal in his criticism of KERS and it undoubtedly has brough about this change of mind from Max.

Max decided that KERS would be in F1 and the teams spent millions on developing the system.

Then he turns around and says it's not compolsary.

Then he turns around and says battery recovery is not going to be allowed which affects all but one projects.

Then he turns around and says the teams can drop KERS if they want.

All that money wasted for nothing was my point.

Daniel

8th January 2009, 15:11

I am not saying that the FIA have pandered to Ferrari's wish but merely that Ferrari have what they want. Luca has been rather vocal in his criticism of KERS and it undoubtedly has brough about this change of mind from Max.

I'm not saying the FIA pandered to Lewis Hamilton's wishes but Lewis undoubtedly got what he wanted last year. Lewis has been quite vocal in his quest to win the world title last year and his win quite neatly fits my theory of something or other corruption blah dee blah.

As for the rest of your post I actually agree. What a waste.

8th January 2009, 15:12

Luca has been rather vocal in his criticism of KERS and it undoubtedly has brough about this change of mind from Max.

How do know it was Ferrari Luca and not FOTA Luca who brought about this change?

According to you, he was speaking for both wasn't he?

Garry Walker

8th January 2009, 15:14

:confused:

Sorry Garry, i am in complete agreement with you :confused: You said FIA is dropping KERS due to Ferrari, when you know that to be wrong.

I am not saying that the FIA have pandered to Ferrari's wish but merely that Ferrari have what they want. Luca has been rather vocal in his criticism of KERS and it undoubtedly has brough about this change of mind from Max.

Max decided that KERS would be in F1 and the teams spent millions on developing the system. Something Ferrari never wanted.

Then he turns around and says it's not compolsary. But due to the fact that it makes a car faster, everyone will still use it.

Then he turns around and says battery recovery is not going to be allowed which affects all but one projects.It is allowed, just something that FIA would like to ban in future. In anycase, isn`t it now time to say it is Williams who FIA is trying to prefer, because they are the only one to have a system that doesn`t have a battery? How is this helping Ferrari?

Then he turns around and says the teams can drop KERS if they want.FOTA voted on this months ago already, so what Max is saying is irrelevant. The vote was 6:4 against using KERS, but they needed 7 votes,, so they will still use it.

All that money wasted for nothing was my point.Which is again due to the messup by FIA, but you still have not pointed out how this is all supposed to help Ferrari.

8th January 2009, 15:22

It is allowed, just something that FIA would like to ban in future. In anycase, isn`t it now time to say it is Williams who FIA is trying to prefer, because they are the only one to have a system that doesn`t have a battery? How is this helping Ferrari

Good point.

Daniel

8th January 2009, 15:27

Good point.
Not if you're wanting to blow the floodgates on the apparent bias of the FIA towards Ferrari though :laugh:

Garry Walker

8th January 2009, 15:30

Not if you're wanting to blow the floodgates on the apparent bias of the FIA towards Ferrari though :laugh:

It means its a conspiracy between FIA, Ferrari and Williams. A grand scheme.

Azumanga Davo

8th January 2009, 15:44

It means its a conspiracy between FIA, Ferrari and Williams. A grand scheme.

Putting pen to paper as we speak... ;)

Daniel

8th January 2009, 15:48

Putting pen to paper as we speak... ;)
By vitrue of Monaro Doorslammer posting in this thread I deduce that GM are of course involved and that in fact the US government is bailing out KERS!!!!!! DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN! Talk to you senator and put an end to the bailing out of KERS!!!!!

ArrowsFA1

8th January 2009, 15:51

Max decided that KERS would be in F1 and the teams spent millions on developing the system.

Then he turns around and says it's not compolsary.

Then he turns around and says battery recovery is not going to be allowed which affects all but one projects.

Then he turns around and says the teams can drop KERS if they want.

All that money wasted for nothing was my point.
Fair point :up:

8th January 2009, 16:24

Fair point :up:

That's what happens when you discuss the situation and indulge in listening to the teams.

If only the FIA had kept on forcing the issue, with no compromise, not listening to the teams.

Except you wouldn't like that either.

ioan

8th January 2009, 22:37

Why are you posting idiotic stuff that you know to be wrong?

That surely is a rhetoric question! ;)

ioan

8th January 2009, 22:41

Dave B

9th January 2009, 09:41

Bagwan

14th January 2009, 16:52

Well , it seems that BMW are the only team that wants KERS in this year .

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1news/nieuw/article/6504-Ferrari+scolds+BMW+for+KERS+stance.html

We can't fault the reds this time , kids .

Daniel

14th January 2009, 16:54

jens

14th January 2009, 17:11

That's interesting. I can understand that it would be beneficial for Toyota (no KERS anyway) and to all Magneti Marelli teams (Fer, Ren, RBR, STR) to abandon KERS, but if BMW is mentioned as the only team, who is in favour of this system for 2009, then what about McLaren-Mercedes and Williams? Have they encountered problems? Williams seemed really upbeat about taking a gamble on a flywheel system with the hope of moving upwards in the standings. Isn't the system quite functioning as hoped? And is McLaren convinced that they would be competitive in any case (KERS or not), so they don't care about its potential postponing or are they afraid of BMW's possible challenge too much?

Anyway, maybe if BMW finally encounters serious problems too, we may indeed see a KERS-free 2009 season. A lot is unclear yet, a lot may happen. Long way to go until March. :)

14th January 2009, 17:24

Putting aside partisanship for a moment, I don't think this bodes well for the future of FOTA.

"In the F1 teams' alliance FOTA, however, total unanimity is necessary for measures to be adopted immediately

"We specified that resolutions must be reached unanimously," Domenicali confirmed at the Madonna di Campiglio ski event in the Italian Dolomites"

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1news/nieuw/article/6504-Ferrari+scolds+BMW+for+KERS+stance.html

The problems with the last Concord agreement was that the teams could never unite on anything, allowing Max to divide-and-rule.

Now, it appears, there are already disagreements brought about by competitive instinct within FOTA.

Well, what a surprise....the school children can't look after themselves.

Which is why, folks, there has to be a head-master. Is that Mr Mosley I can hear laughing?

BDunnell

14th January 2009, 17:40

I agree. Requiring unanimity in an organisation composed of parties with potentially divergent views is never a good idea, I feel.

Garry Walker

14th January 2009, 18:18

Yet again this is tinkering by Max which will cost even more money: forcing the teams to develop an expensive system ($60million by all accounts) only to drop it or standardise it a year later. :rolleyes:

For goodness sake, Max, make one sweeping set of rule changes then have the balls to stick with them for a few years.

Don`t you dare attack Max, the resident Mosley fanboys of this forum will be on you in no time.

Obviously, very stupid behaviour from FIA and Mosley. But who cares about 60 million dollars?

Putting aside partisanship for a moment, I don't think this bodes well for the future of FOTA.

"In the F1 teams' alliance FOTA, however, total unanimity is necessary for measures to be adopted immediately

"We specified that resolutions must be reached unanimously," Domenicali confirmed at the Madonna di Campiglio ski event in the Italian Dolomites"
Before it was 7:3 that was needed. How were they so stupid to require unanimous support for decisions?

christophulus

14th January 2009, 18:55

Well , it seems that BMW are the only team that wants KERS in this year .

We can't fault the reds this time , kids .

ANY team that has an advantage will try and hold on to it no matter what. And essentially, BMW seem to have got their system working best under the new rule changes, much like Ferrari/McLaren got their cars perfected under the last set of rules, so it's all completely fair.

Other teams will complain and moan because they're disadvantaged and the FIA often takes action (for better or worse). It's just the way the world works! You can fault Ferrari for complaining but only if you wish to do the same to every other team in history that has lodged a complaint...

BDunnell

14th January 2009, 19:52

How were they so stupid to require unanimous support for decisions?

Only they can answer that.

By the way, I hope my last post in this thread didn't give the impression that Max is the 'headmaster' that is required. This isn't my view at all, though I do think that other potential candidates almost all have their limitations at the present time.

Garry Walker

14th January 2009, 20:54

Only they can answer that.

By the way, I hope my last post in this thread didn't give the impression that Max is the 'headmaster' that is required. This isn't my view at all, though I do think that other potential candidates almost all have their limitations at the present time.

FOTA cannot work because they all have special interests involved. The problem is that Spanky is an awful person to lead.

ArrowsFA1

15th January 2009, 09:27

FOTA cannot work because they all have special interests involved.
Historically that has certainly been the case, with divisions being encouraged by those who once headed FOCA, but FOTA has been created out of necessity. All the teams recognise that and they have taken action (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72676) to address the issues facing them individually, and those facing the sport as a whole.

It's a new approach that fundamentally differs from what we've seen since FOCA was created and Max 'n' Bernie took over F1. Given the competition between the teams disagreement is inevitable at times, and perhaps it's no surprise that a Max inspired idea (KERS) is the issue.

Fortunately times are changing. I think the 2005 US GP marked the beginning of the end for Bernie's influence, and the formation of FOTA is another watershed, this time for the FIA in its current form where F1 is concerned.

Just as one individual is no longer solely responsible for the design of an F1 car, so too has the time gone when two individuals can run this sport as they see fit.