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Knock-on
9th September 2008, 12:57
There seems to be a lot of confusion about what FIA regulations state.

This thread is not for getting into a pi$$ing contest about McLaren Vs Ferrari otherwise it will be merged with the other bunfights.

Hopefully, it is to clearly state what the actual regulations contain and how they are applied.

The current issue seems to surround penalties and as the FIA regulations are sometimes less than transparent, I will post the relevant parts.

Current FIA International Sporting code.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 0clean.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/917D67F70F1C5EE7C12573B7003DCEC5/$FILE/CSI%20modif%20ap%20AGO%20oct%2007%20ANG%20-%20Applic.%2001.01.08%20-%20clean.pdf)


152. Penalties
Any breach of this Code or the Appendices thereto, of the national rules or their appendices, or of any Supplementary Regulations committed by any organiser, official, competitor, driver, or other person or organisation may be penalised or fined.

Penalties or fines may be inflicted by the stewards of the meeting and ASNs as indicated in the following articles.

The decision of the stewards becomes immediately binding notwithstanding an appeal if it concerns questions of safety or of irregularity of entry by a competitor entering an event or when, in the course of the same event, a further breach is committed justifying the exclusion of the same competitor.

Nevertheless, as a safeguard, if a competitor appeals, excluding the cases cited above, the penalty will be suspended, in particular to determine the application of any handicap rule having an influence on participation in a later event, without however the competitor and the driver being able to take part in the prize-giving or the podium ceremony, nor can they appear in the official
classification of the event, in any place other than that resulting from the application of the penalty, unless they have won their appeal before the appeal courts and their rights have then been re-established.

Penalties of driving through or stopping in pit lanes together with certain penalties specified in FIA Championship regulations where this is expressly stated, are not susceptible to appeal.

In matters relating to the fight against doping, the sanctions mentioned in the anti-doping regulations set out in Appendix A to this Code shall be applied.

As well as this and independently of the prescriptions of the following Articles, the FIA may, upon the proposal and report of the FIA observer or the joint report of the two international stewards of the meeting designated by the FIA, directly inflict a penalty which will take the place of any penalty which the stewards of the meeting may have pronounced on any one of the above-mentioned parties.

In this case, the ASN concerned cannot refuse to appeal to the International Court of Appeal on behalf of the party concerned.

Also, the stewards in the FIA Championships may decide the following penalties applicable to the competitors or to the drivers : suspension for one or more events, fine, withdrawal of Championship points.

Points should not be deducted separately from drivers and competitors, save in exceptional circumstances.

These penalties may, where applicable, be cumulated or applied with suspension of sentence.


171. Right to protest

The right to protest lies only with a competitor; nevertheless, an official acting in his official capacity may even in the absence of a protest take such official action as the case warrants.

A competitor wishing to protest against more than one fellow competitor must lodge as many protests as there are competitors involved in the action concerned.

172. Lodging of protest

Every protest shall be in writing and accompanied by a fee, the amount of which shall be set annually by the ASN (or by the FIA for its Championships, Cups, Trophies or Challenges). This fee may only be returned if the protest is upheld.


176. Inadmissible protest

Protests against decisions made by the finish line judges and judges of fact in the exercise of their duties, as laid down in Article 149, will not be admitted.

A single protest against more than one competitor will not be accepted.

F1 Regulations

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 7-2008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/EAC2585AB885FDDCC1257483004B3147/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2011-07-2008.pdf)

As a protest relates to an incident, we need to be clear of what an incident is.


16) INCIDENTS
16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which :

- necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41 ;
- constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code ;
- caused a false start by one or more cars ;
- caused a collision ;
- forced a driver off the track ;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver ;
- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.

Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.

16.2 a) It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide, upon a report or a request by the race director, if a driver or drivers involved in an incident shall be penalised.

b) If an incident is under investigation by the stewards a message informing all teams which driver or drivers are involved will be displayed on the timing monitors.
Provided that such a message is displayed no later than five minutes after the race has finished the driver or drivers concerned may not leave the circuit without the consent of the stewards.

16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident :

a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping ;

b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.

c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.

16.4 Should the stewards decide to impose either of the penalties under Article 16.3a) or b), the following procedure will be followed :

a) The stewards will give written notification of the penalty which has been imposed to the competitor concerned and will ensure that this information is also displayed on the timing monitors.

b) From the time the stewards’ decision is notified on the timing monitors the relevant driver may cover no more than three complete laps before entering the pit lane and, in the case of a penalty under Article 16.3b), proceeding to his garage where he shall remain for the period of the time penalty.

However, unless the driver was already in the pit entry for the purpose of serving his penalty, he may not carry out the penalty after the Safety Car has been deployed. Any laps carried out behind the Safety Car will be added to the three lap maximum.

Whilst a car is stationary in the pit lane as a result of incurring a time penalty it may not be worked on. However, if the engine stops it may be started after the time penalty period has elapsed.

c) When the time penalty period has elapsed the driver may rejoin the race.

d) Any breach or failure to comply with Articles 16.4b) or c) may result in the car being excluded.

17) PROTESTS

17.1 Protests shall be made in accordance with the Code and accompanied by a fee of €2000.

Does anyone have a link to the part of the code which says what a driver shall do after gaining an advantage by going off track as I cannot find it.

schmenke
9th September 2008, 16:16
...Does anyone have a link to the part of the code which says what a driver shall do after gaining an advantage by going off track as I cannot find it.

I've searched but can't find any reference.

Tonieke
9th September 2008, 16:23
I've searched but can't find any reference.


I hope there is one..otherwise what would lewis penalty be based on ?

Knock-on
9th September 2008, 16:41
I hope there is one..otherwise what would lewis penalty be based on ?

This is the problem I have.

I have read most FIA regulations but they seem to make it difficult to find information.

I have the same problem trying to prove that GP2 is subject to FIA regulations and had to cross reference 2 different technical regs to prove that it is.

schmenke
9th September 2008, 17:07
(Posted previously...)

The regulations specify that gaining an advantage unfairly, i.e. cutting a chicane, is subject to penalty. This is why Lewis was penalised.

Subsequent mitigating actions by the driver, e.g. relinquishing a position, does not reverse the application of the regulation.

Hamilton could have relinquished positions until the cows came home. The penalty is still valid.

yodasarmpit
9th September 2008, 21:02
According to the FIA the penalty was for breach of the two regulations Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.
Source ITV.com http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=43853

Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf

30) GENERAL SAFETY
30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the
provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/CA5A166189CFBA56C125747B002E4371/$FILE/Annexe%20L_08.07.03.pdf

2. Overtaking
g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the
race.

By combining both regulations it would appear that if you overtake another competitor by using an area other than the track, as Hamilton did, you will receive a penalty, regardless of giving the position back or not.

Technically he did breach these regulations, I don't agree with it on this occasion as ultimately it made no difference to the result, but that's not my call.

Knock-on
9th September 2008, 21:23
According to the FIA the penalty was for breach of the two regulations Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.
Source ITV.com http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=43853

Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf


Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/CA5A166189CFBA56C125747B002E4371/$FILE/Annexe%20L_08.07.03.pdf


By combining both regulations it would appear that if you overtake another competitor by using an area other than the track, as Hamilton did, you will receive a penalty, regardless of giving the position back or not.

Technically he did breach these regulations, I don't agree with it on this occasion as ultimately it made no difference to the result, but that's not my call.


This is going to be fun if they start chopping and changging the rules to punish Lewis.

What a complete farce?

So, even if he gave the position back, gave Kimi 10 minutes head start and stuck a Ferrari flag up his arse, he would still have been penalised.

Makes sense.

Just face it lewis, you were screwed last year and you should be used to the feeling this year as well.

Knock-on
9th September 2008, 21:29
Sorry about last post. Shouldn't bring the Lewis situation into it.

Has anyone got a link to what the proceduer is if you go off track and gain an advantage.

We all "know" what the FIA have said but I cant find it documented.

Tonieke
9th September 2008, 21:40
According to the FIA the penalty was for breach of the two regulations Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.
Source ITV.com http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=43853

Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf


Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/CA5A166189CFBA56C125747B002E4371/$FILE/Annexe%20L_08.07.03.pdf


By combining both regulations it would appear that if you overtake another competitor by using an area other than the track, as Hamilton did, you will receive a penalty, regardless of giving the position back or not.

Technically he did breach these regulations, I don't agree with it on this occasion as ultimately it made no difference to the result, but that's not my call.

If this is goin to be the standard for penalties from now on....it's goin to get busy in the pits...

Knock-on
9th September 2008, 21:42
If this is goin to be the standard for penalties from now on....it's goin to get busy in the pits...

It's going to take 6 months of appeals and judgements before a result is finalised :D

Tonieke
9th September 2008, 21:54
and if these are the rules the penalty is really based on..half of the field should have gotten a drive through for what happened in the first corner...Correct me if I am wrong ?

schmenke
9th September 2008, 22:02
Perhaps a return to gravel run-offs would solve future situations like this :mark: