Monza Grand Prix thread

[ShiftingGears]

Sick of all the petty arguing over what was otherwise a brilliant race...

So, are McLaren going to be the team to beat, as they were last year in Italy?

[Ranger]

Has it ever rained during the actual race at Monza? At the moment there's a 60% chance of that this weekend.

[Knock-on]

Has it ever rained during the actual race at Monza? At the moment there's a 60% chance of that this weekend.

I hope so but I just cannot get excited about it.

Whenever happens, I just hope there is no controversy but I suppose that depends on who wins.

[F1boat]

I hope for a normal, fast dry race won by Ferrari. If it rain, maybe I'll skip it.

[jens]

Last year McLaren was superior, but this year's Ferrari F2008 appears to be quick on all kinds of circuits, so I think they'll be closer to Macs than last year and maybe will give them a serious fight too.

About others.
BMW - third force probably.
Williams could be strong again and maybe compete for points - they tend to perform better on circuits, which demand more mechanical grip.
Don't know about Toyota. Temperatures should be higher than at Spa, but they didn't do particularly well at Montreal, so I'm not sure, how will this circuit suit them.
I'm a bit sceptical about Renault'-powered teams, but Ferrari's STR should be in strong points contention again.

[pettersolberg29]

This is Heidfeld's best chance of a win, and securing his BMW seat.

If it rains, and he qualifies top 6 again, then a win is by no means out the question.

[Faisal]

Can someone explain me what exactly is driver's challenge in Monza ? Because I see the car+engine mattering here. Putting a foot on pedal does not sound a challenge to me !!

[Ranger]

Can someone explain me what exactly is driver's challenge in Monza ? Because I see the car+engine mattering here. Putting a foot on pedal does not sound a challenge to me !!

It'll certainly be a challenge if the rain finally hits:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/weekend/ITXX0049?from=36hr_topnav_business
http://weather.msn.com/tenday.aspx?&wealocations=wc%3aITXX0049&q=Monza%2c+ITA&setunit=C#details
60 - 95% chance of rain on both Saturday and Sunday.

[Ranger]

Pretty wet and dark at the moment! Sutil was top of the timesheets before the rain hit.

[christophulus]

Sounds like the weather was awful, Radio 5 Live were saying their commentary box was flooding. Hopefully the rain will ease up for the afternoon, not much to say about the session this morning

[ioan]

That weather was horrible, if it continues like that there are chances to see a race with 50% of the laps run behind the SC, and the other 50% will simply not fit into the 2 hours bracket! :D

[cosmicpanda]

So that means it'll all come down to Qualifying tomorrow night :)

[pino]

No rain at the moment :)

[Dave B]

According to Five Live, today is likely to have the best weather of the weekend. Could be very interesting! :D

[Ranger]

Looks pretty dry at the moment, hard to believe it was almost flooding earlier!

[555-04Q2]

Bring the rain. It always spices up the race.

[Knock-on]

Looking like it's cold and wet for Sunday with wet qualifying.

Should be interesting.

Max might be on Ferrari's side but Gods a McLaren fan :D

[jens]

Max might be on Ferrari's side but Gods a McLaren fan :D

So - who's more powerful? :D

[gloomyDAY]

So - who's more powerful? :D I am...

http://media3.guzer.com/pictures/cute_kitty2.jpg

I hope it rains cats and dogs. I'd love to see STR on a podium.

[donKey jote]

absolutely pishing it at the moment :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Hamilton starting 15th is going to make things interesting!!!!

Very odd that he didn't have the pace but that's where he's at.

WDC race advantage to Massa.

[gloomyDAY]

Hamilton starting 15th is going to make things interesting!!!!

Very odd that he didn't have the pace but that's where he's at.

WDC race advantage to Massa.I wonder what happened.
McLaren just juggled Hamilton's chance at the WDC.

[ICKE]

Monster lap from Massa, absolute beauty when the conditions had already deteriorated.

Compare that to Hamilton's performance. :p :p

[yodasarmpit]

This is going to be interesting tomorrow.

[ArrowsFA1]

Monster lap from Massa, absolute beauty when the conditions had already deteriorated.
Yup. 2secs quicker than Hamilton, but Massa only just scraped into Q3 himself. In these conditions anything can happen.

[ArrowsFA1]

And it did!!!!!!!!!! Vettel on POLE!!!!!!!!!!!

[gloomyDAY]

And it did!!!!!!!!!! Vettel on POLE!!!!!!!!!!!
Read my sig. :s mokin:

[Dave B]

And it did!!!!!!!!!! Vettel on POLE!!!!!!!!!!!Phenomenal. A solid job from Bourdais too. :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

Good point in the press conference - the two customer Ferrari engined cars outqualified both the 'works' Ferraris :p

[ioan]

Monster lap from Massa, absolute beauty when the conditions had already deteriorated.

Compare that to Hamilton's performance. :p :p

Exactly, Hamilton was running not far behind Felipe, and he was 3 seconds slower, in the same conditions! :eek:
Raikkonen also was 1.5 slower around the same moment!

Anyway, what is clear is that the rainmaster is in fact the "Reggenmeister" and is called Sebastian Vettel!

PS: I think that Lewy should think twice next time he talks about balls size! :laugh:

[Spanish]

Another stupid Mclarens's mistake! Were was LH mounted intermediates at Q2?

[ioan]

According to Berger Vettel's car has more of a dry track oriented set-up! :eek:

[ioan]

Webber not the happiest in the PQ conference, he is thinking about next season maybe?

[Spanish]

all the cars qualify at Q3 are dry set-up (the forecast see low rain for tomorow)

[ArrowsFA1]

Were was LH mounted intermediates at Q2?
That's what they said on tv. It might have worked too if the rain hadn't come on more again. With the benefit of hindsight, and an armchair, it was the wrong call.

[veeten]

which brings one prominent question up...

Vettel, are you sure that you want to leave Toro Rosso for what's going on with Red Bull?... :dozey:

think about what you're driving now, the 'senior' team and what they have, and just where things are going. Revisit that contract, son.

[Spanish]

That's what they said on tv. It might have worked too if the rain hadn't come on more again. With the benefit of hindsight, and an armchair, it was the wrong call.

The ABC for the rain qualifing sesions: first, take the best lap, second, practice, third, experimentation

[gloomyDAY]

which brings one prominent question up...

Vettel, are you sure that you want to leave Toro Rosso for what's going on with Red Bull?... :dozey:

think about what you're driving now, the 'senior' team and what they have, and just where things are going. Revisit that contract, son.Mark looked pretty down about that performance discrepancy.

Mark: Want to switch cars?
Vettel: No.
Mark: Oh, ok.
Vettel: :D

[Corny]

we'll see tomorrow if Lewis really has that talent what Michael had

[BDunnell]

How fantastic was that? Should be a great race tomorrow. I don't normally support anyone in particular, but I'll be rooting for the Toro Rosso drivers — and Rosberg!

[Big Ben]

That's what they said on tv. It might have worked too if the rain hadn't come on more again. With the benefit of hindsight, and an armchair, it was the wrong call.

I thought they were allowed to change tires. maybe they didn't figure it out during those 15 minutes.

[wedge]

Fantastic, a topsy turvy grid for tomorrow!

What on earth was Lewis thinking? Should've played it conservative so you're in good chance of getting points. No point taking risks in the wet at this stage of the season, just look what happened in China. At least the Ferrari drivers had a chance to make up the difference between Silverstone and today.

[Dave B]

The ABC for the rain qualifing sesions: first, take the best lap, second, practice, third, experimentation
I'm with you there: surely the done thing in those conditions is to put in a "banker" lap and then experiment with tyre choice.

But as Arrows says, it's easy to make the right tyre choice from the comfort of our living rooms.

[VkmSpouge]

Very well done to Sebastien Vettel and the whole Toro Rosso team! Brilliantly fast in tricky conditions. With Sebastian Bourdais in fourth place, who would have predicted the top Ferrari engined team at Monza would have been Toro Rosso? :D
Heikki Kovalainen will be in contention for the race win tomorrow, he'll have to play his part in taking points off Felipe Massa. Massa probably has his car brim full with fuel. Mark Webber also got a good qualifying result in third too.
Robert Kubica, Kimi Raikkonen and Lewis Hamilton having poor qualifying sessions. Strange decision by Hamilton to gamble on intermediate tyres when they had the same weather forecast as everyone else and had little to gain by it. Even when on wets though Hamilton's head clearly wasn't with it, he was very poor.
And well done to Giancarlo Fisichella for getting a Force India past the first qualifying session for the first time!
Great topsy turvy grid! :D

[52Paddy]

Great session! Really delighted for Vettel and glad Bourdais has kept consistently delivering since his career became under a bit of threat. With both Ferraris and Hamilton down that far, I wonder what dilemma it will create for tomorrow. I'm hoping for rain. This will give Vettel (and probably a lot of other drivers who haven't had great opportunities this year) the best chance to get a really solid result.

I just wish I didn't have to be out tomorrow afternoon. Guess I'll have to catch highlights :(

[jens]

Wow, that was an insane qualifying and very hardly believable!

Vettel confirmed once again his Regenmeister status! And besides that he seems quite respectful to others - he praised everyone for doing a good job in quali. :) Don't hear something like that often! Webber and Bourdais did very nicely too, so three Red Bulls in Top4. Amazing.
Great to see Kovalainen up there too - especially as he has recently been criticized for his "rain form". Hopefully he'll have a decent race tomorrow.
Expected Williams to be quick at Monza and for a change Rosberg seemed handy in rain. Nakajima was a disappointment though - thought he would do better in such conditions.
Massa again doing a better job than Räikkönen in the wet.
Fisichella 12th in a Force India - absolutely fantastic!!!! :bounce:
Hamilton's tyre choice. :laugh: If he chooses the right tyres for tomorrow, he could be a threat though!
And finally - well, both Toyotas in Q3 is quite OK, although hoped for a higher grid spot by Trulli as he was 4th in Q2.

If it's dry tomorrow, then most probably we will see a different pecking order, but in case of a wet race I wonder whether we witness a similar performance ranking as today?! Will Vettel and Kovalainen drive away from others and so on?

Good point in the press conference - the two customer Ferrari engined cars outqualified both the 'works' Ferraris :p

What would you expect from the Scuderia but to supply equal equipment to its customers?

Of course, we may well never know if Mercedes would have the same policy.

[yodasarmpit]

What would you expect from the Scuderia but to supply equal equipment to its customers?

Of course, we may well never know if Mercedes would have the same policy.What a pointless post, there was no suggestion made that they wouldn't supply equal equipment, nor that McLaren wouldn't if they were in the same situation.

What a pointless post, there was no suggestion made that they wouldn't supply equal equipment, nor that McLaren wouldn't if they were in the same situation.

Who mentioned Mclaren?

Why would anyone mention Mclaren when we are talking about engines?

Do you know that Mclaren have never made an engine? They are chassis men.

The fact is that Ferrari get so much flak for just about everything they do, and typically when it is clear that they evidently operate fairly with their customers engine supply it is totally overlooked.

Nobody knows what Mercedes would do, because they have maintained a one-team policy since they re-entered the sport in 1993.

It's therefore a perfectly valid question to ask.

[veeten]

What would you expect from the Scuderia but to supply equal equipment to its customers?
equipment?... yes. Intel?... that's a different story.

You get base settings, not the ones that the factory team uses. This means that you have to do all the engineering work, trackside-wise, by yourself. Toro Rosso just happened to get it right in conjunction with their chassis, with the proof being how they have run during this season.


Of course, we may well never know if Mercedes would have the same policy.

That may soon be tested, as the question of 'customer cars' is being brought back for discussion.

[yodasarmpit]

Who mentioned Mclaren?

Why would anyone mention Mclaren when we are talking about engines?

Do you know that Mclaren have never made an engine? They are chassis men.

The fact is that Ferrari get so much flak for just about everything they do, and typically when it is clear that they evidently operate fairly with their customers engine supply it is totally overlooked.

Nobody knows what Mercedes would do, because they have maintained a one-team policy since they re-entered the sport in 1993.

It's therefore a perfectly valid question to ask.
I do apologise, I should have typed Mercedes rather than McLaren.

No one has offered flack in the direction of Ferrari in relationship to their customer engines, so why infer otherwise.

You bring up the question, what would Mercedes do, well we don't know as they don't supply customer engines, however the way you worded your post infers that they would pull some underhand trick and supply an inferior product.

You used a hypothetical situation to deliver a very thinly veiled bash at Mercedes for some unknown reason.


I don't get all the Ferrari/McLaren/Mercedes/Hamilton/Alonso/Kimi bashing that goes on in these here forums, way too much fanboy'ish behaviour tbh.

[FIA]

What happened to Adrian Sutil?

You bring up the question, what would Mercedes do, well we don't know as they don't supply customer engines, however the way you worded your post infers that they would pull some underhand trick and supply an inferior product.

You used a hypothetical situation to deliver a very thinly veiled bash at Mercedes for some unknown reason.

It was more a criticism that they have never been a customer-supplier than a chance to imply they would pull a fast-one.

Ferrari, Renault, Honda & Toyota have all had the big balls to risk embarrassment by supplying other teams. BMW are yet to this time round, but did in the 80's.

Mercedes have not.

[Daniel]

I'm with you there: surely the done thing in those conditions is to put in a "banker" lap and then experiment with tyre choice.

But as Arrows says, it's easy to make the right tyre choice from the comfort of our living rooms.

Perhaps the problem is they don't have a living room there :p

[VkmSpouge]

What happened to Adrian Sutil?

20th and last, the customary position for a Force India. Of their two drivers I would have tipped Sutil to have gone faster in the wet, I guess Giancarlo Fisichella's experience and perhaps a good bit of timing came through for him today.

[Viktory]

Quite interesting comparing top speed from qualifying:

Pos No Driver Speed
1 10 Mark Webber 327.4
2 15 Sebastian Vettel 327.1
3 9 David Coulthard 326.0
4 3 Nick Heidfeld 324.3
5 14 Sebastien Bourdais 324.2
6 17 Rubens Barrichello 320.7
7 20 Adrian Sutil 320.3
8 16 Jenson Button 319.7
9 4 Robert Kubica 319.6
10 12 Timo Glock 318.2
11 1 Kimi Räikkönen 317.6
12 7 Nico Rosberg 316.8
13 8 Kazuki Nakajima 316.1
14 6 Nelsinho Piquet 315.1
15 5 Fernando Alonso 309.1
16 23 Heikki Kovalainen 307.9
17 11 Jarno Trulli 307.2
18 21 Giancarlo Fisichella 305.2
19 22 Lewis Hamilton 303.0
20 2 Felipe Massa 295.4

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/800/6561/speed_trap.html

Pretty impressive that Felipe could pull that lap out considering being the slowest car (top speed). Also poses the question who's got more of a dry set up than others.

[yodasarmpit]

Normal wet setup would result in a lower top end speed, which suggests Lewis performed very poorly, on the flip side Weber and Vettel performed way above expectations.
The only issue here, is that those speeds only give an indication of the setup, with no regard to tyre choice.

Got to say very well done to both Webber and Vettel regardless.

[Viktory]

Normal wet setup would result in a lower top end speed, which suggests Lewis performed very poorly, on the flip side Weber and Vettel performed way above expectations.
The only issue here, is that those speeds only give an indication of the setup, with no regard to tyre choice.

Got to say very well done to both Webber and Vettel regardless.

Wouldn't more downforce (i.e. a car inclined towards wet set up) and softer suspension, give you more traction out of corners and more stability on the straight, especially in those very wet conditions, thus resulting in a higher top speed?

p.s. I am very impressed by Vettel and Webber still, definitely. But this could explain why the top drivers struggled.

[yodasarmpit]

I suppose it depends on where the speed trap is located, if at the end of a straight then a low downforce setup should produce the faster speed, however if the speed trap is at the start or even mid straight then as you suggest the higher downforce car should produce the faster speed

[ArrowsFA1]

How fantastic was that? Should be a great race tomorrow. I don't normally support anyone in particular, but I'll be rooting for the Toro Rosso drivers — and Rosberg!
Wouldn't it be great to see a surprise winner tomorrow. Toro Rosso are in a great position but whether they can maintain it is another question. I'd love to see Williams do well.; aren't they celebrating 500 GP's this weekend?

[mstillhere]

According to Berger Vettel's car has more of a dry track oriented set-up! :eek:

And I would like to elaborate on that to explain the different results. According to what I read, I found out that:

Kimi is on a dry set up, Massa on an intermediate.
Lewis and Kovi on a wet. The reason why Kovi did way better than Lewis was because he (and his engineers?) decided to take a gamble that backfired.

Kimi would be ok if tomorrow the rain would stop although it does not look like it is going to. So, right now those who seem in better shape are Kovi and Massa. Massa could adquire an advantage if the track would dry a little otherwise Kovi would be ok tomorrow. If it rains we might assist at an other duel between Kimi and Lewis. And since Lewis is the hot blooded one I would not be surprised to see him screwing up again. So the different set ups are to be seeing as the cause for so many different results.

meaning that if the rain stops

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm with you there: surely the done thing in those conditions is to put in a "banker" lap and then experiment with tyre choice.

But as Arrows says, it's easy to make the right tyre choice from the comfort of our living rooms.
Here's the view from the heat of the pitlane:

Q. Could you talk us through the qualifying session please?

Lewis Hamilton: We made the wrong call on the tyres. We went out, we came in I was weighed before I'd even finished a lap and I lost a little bit of time there when the track was a little bit drier. And then we went back out on the tyres and I couldn't keep the temperature in the tyres and also the brakes so I just slid around. That was it, there was nothing I could do about it.

Q. What was the thinking behind the decision to choose inters rather than full wets?

LH: The circuit looked like it was either extreme wets or intermediates.

Q. Was that your call or the team's call?

LH: Mine and my engineer's call.

Q. Was it a gamble?

LH: What I did was, absolutely.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70583

[Daniel]

Wouldn't it be great to see a surprise winner tomorrow. Toro Rosso are in a great position but whether they can maintain it is another question. I'd love to see Williams do well.; aren't they celebrating 500 GP's this weekend?

I certainly wouldn't be surprised by Vettel if he won this GP :) Lets hope it stays wet.

[truefan72]

which brings one prominent question up...

Vettel, are you sure that you want to leave Toro Rosso for what's going on with Red Bull?... :dozey:

think about what you're driving now, the 'senior' team and what they have, and just where things are going. Revisit that contract, son.

I've been thinking about that for 3 races now.
are the STR's for real?
are the RBR's that much crap?
What's vettel going to do.

If I were him, I would reserve judgment until after the final GP and well into the Winter season. RBR/STR can still hire another driver (probably Sato) and make a final decision on driver lineups as late as possible. Let's see how winter testing goes and if RBR is able to compete with STR. At the mnoment they sem to be miles ahead of RNR.


OK, Fantastic job Vettel, Rosber Webber and Bourdais.

Terrible Job Hamilton, Kubica and Raikkonen.

Massa knowing the situation should have been at least 2nd or 3rd. At 6th, anything is possible, incidents etc.

OK the silver lining for H, RK and KRis that they get to choose their own fuel load. I expect LH and KR to pass a bunch of cars in the first few laps and move up into the points after about 6 or 7 laps if not sooner.

The key for both of them is patience. Don't try to take it all back in the first few corners. If they can negotiate around after the first lap, they will both be fine. If its a wt race, then the advantage goes to them even more so as they can figure out pretty late how to fuel their car. If it is a dry race, I still expect them to pass a few cars and be up there pretty soon.

Massa will be interesting to watch how he reacts at the start. He doesn't do well in Monza and probably might get passed by a few guys right at the first turn. He wants to be aggressive but also a bit conservative, interesting to see.

I do think that both STR's will do well no matter the conditions. Rosberg seems to have a slight wet weather setup which will work if it stays wet, or impede him if it turns dry tomorrow. Webber, is tough to figure out. He's been up there before at starts and always seemed to loose it ( Monaco, Silverstone).

But this will be some exciting race tomorrow. It will be good to see different cars out front (for a while at least) and should give other teams hope to push in both performance and development. If STR can do so can they.

[ioan]

Massa knowing the situation should have been at least 2nd or 3rd. At 6th, anything is possible, incidents etc.

then what about 14th and 15th will they at least manage to go around T1?! :D

[jens]

Talking about RBR vs STR. I think in 2009 Red Bull will be stronger again. 2009 cars will be totally different and the chassis is constructed for the RB A-team. As we see, STR has become quick in the second half of the 2008 season, when finally the engineers have found a way, how to take the best out of the Ferrari engine with this chassis. At least in the beginning of 2009 Red Bull will have an obvious advantage again.

[Hawkmoon]

Wrong tyre choice doesn't explain why Lewis "I'm great in these conditions" Hamilton was so slow when he switched to the right tyre. Even though he missed the slot for the best time it doesn't explain why he was so much slower than everybody else.

If it's wet tommorrow (today, whatever) I bet they start under the safety car. If they don't a repeat of Spa '98 at the start is highly likely.

[markabilly]

OK the silver lining for H, RK and KRis that they get to choose their own fuel load. I expect LH and KR to pass a bunch of cars in the first few laps and move up into the points after about 6 or 7 laps if not sooner.

The key for both of them is patience. Don't try to take it all back in the first few corners. If they can negotiate around after the first lap, they will both be fine. If its a wt race, then the advantage goes to them even more so as they can figure out pretty late how to fuel their car. If it is a dry race, I still expect them to pass a few cars and be up there pretty soon.



do so can they.
No i want to see if kimi has really has no balls......and if hamster can find his.

[ShiftingGears]

Wrong tyre choice doesn't explain why Lewis "I'm great in these conditions" Hamilton was so slow when he switched to the right tyre. Even though he missed the slot for the best time it doesn't explain why he was so much slower than everybody else.

It's a bit like Canada this year where he made highly self gratifying comments and then promptly shot himself in the foot not long after. Which is pretty amusing, maybe he'll learn a thing from it.


If it's wet tommorrow (today, whatever) I bet they start under the safety car. If they don't a repeat of Spa '98 at the start is highly likely.

IMO the worst case scenario would be like Fuji '07 where we had 20 laps of safety car. Total joke.

[Ranger]

Lewis looked terrible today. But the last time I said that on a Saturday was at Silverstone and he won by more than a minute! Should make for a chaotically good race tomorrow! :D

Here are some numbers to crunch. Does a fast speed in the wet mean low or high downforce? Usually it would mean low downforce but high downforce would stick the car through the corners in low grip and facilitate better exit speed through Ascari chicane (which precedes the speed trap)...
Speed trap:

Pos No Driver Time of Day Speed
1 10 Mark Webber 14:16:34 327.4
2 15 Sebastian Vettel 14:18:54 327.1
3 9 David Coulthard 14:11:21 326.0
4 3 Nick Heidfeld 14:19:45 324.3
5 14 Sebastien Bourdais 14:18:32 324.2
6 17 Rubens Barrichello 14:18:42 320.7
7 20 Adrian Sutil 14:19:34 320.3
8 16 Jenson Button 14:16:25 319.7
9 4 Robert Kubica 14:11:33 319.6
10 12 Timo Glock 14:17:41 318.2
11 1 Kimi Räikkönen 14:16:17 317.6
12 7 Nico Rosberg 14:10:56 316.8
13 8 Kazuki Nakajima 14:19:22 316.1
14 6 Nelsinho Piquet 14:19:59 315.1
15 5 Fernando Alonso 14:32:19 309.1
16 23 Heikki Kovalainen 14:59:25 307.9
17 11 Jarno Trulli 14:07:28 307.2
18 21 Giancarlo Fisichella 14:19:29 305.2
19 22 Lewis Hamilton 14:08:27 303.0
20 2 Felipe Massa 14:17:37 295.4

Great job today by Seb V. Couldn't have happened to too many nicer drivers on the grid. :up:

[markabilly]

:D

Here are some numbers to crunch. Does a fast speed in the wet mean low or high downforce? Usually it would mean low downforce but high downforce would stick the car through the corners in low grip and facilitate better exit speed through Ascari chicane (which precedes the speed trap)...
[/code]

Great job today by Seb V. Couldn't have happened to too many nicer drivers on the grid. :up:


Usually it would mean low downforce (I would add"in the dry") but high downforce would stick the car through the corners in low grip and facilitate better exit speed through Ascari chicane (which precedes the speed trap)...

Most interesting as Massa was by far the slowest through the trap at number 20, yet made it into the top ten, whereas Kimi did not, though he was number 11 ....And HK at number 16 ended up less than a tenth of a second behind Vettel for number two on the grid....

[truefan72]

Wrong tyre choice doesn't explain why Lewis "I'm great in these conditions" Hamilton was so slow when he switched to the right tyre. Even though he missed the slot for the best time it doesn't explain why he was so much slower than everybody else.

If it's wet tommorrow (today, whatever) I bet they start under the safety car. If they don't a repeat of Spa '98 at the start is highly likely.

1. everyone was so much slower when it started pouring.
2. As LH said he couldn't get any heat into the tyres.
3. Lets' see the race tomorrow and then judge accordingly.

should be exciting

[Hawkmoon]

1. everyone was so much slower when it started pouring.
2. As LH said he couldn't get any heat into the tyres.
3. Lets' see the race tomorrow and then judge accordingly.

should be exciting

1. True but Massa squeaked into the top 10 by going something like 2 seconds quicker on the same lap as Hamilton was nowhere. There was time to be had, Hamilton just couldn't find it. He was so far off the pace that questions have to asked of a driver who has proven to be normally very good in the wet.

2. I'd imagine that that is true. Again, why was he unable to do this yesterday when it hasn't been a problem in any other wet session.

3. I agree. I wouldn't rule him out of contention for points in any conditions and if it stays very wet then I wouldn't rule him out of a win. I bloody hope he doesn't but we'll see.

[truefan72]

1. True but Massa squeaked into the top 10 by going something like 2 seconds quicker on the same lap as Hamilton was nowhere. There was time to be had, Hamilton just couldn't find it. He was so far off the pace that questions have to asked of a driver who has proven to be normally very good in the wet.

2. I'd imagine that that is true. Again, why was he unable to do this yesterday when it hasn't been a problem in any other wet session.

3. I agree. I wouldn't rule him out of contention for points in any conditions and if it stays very wet then I wouldn't rule him out of a win. I bloody hope he doesn't but we'll see.

all good points,

lets just say for whatever reason he did not produce in Q2 yesterday and Massa did. But this is probably more of an aberration than the norm for him, even in the wets. But I still feel the race will provide some thrills tomorrow. In a way it will provide for some action up and down the grid.

[pino]

Great pole for Vettel and great job by Toro Rosso too :up: It would be great to hear the italian anthem today...with a different Team ;)

[Anderton]

I'm really happy for Vettel. Great work by both him and the team. He could be on for a really good finish if it continues to rain today.

[Tonieke]

I'm really happy for Vettel. Great work by both him and the team. He could be on for a really good finish if it continues to rain today.

well ya...talking about rain..what is the situation out there for today ?

maybe Kimi and lewis (and probably more)..took a gamble...and choose for a more dry set up...hoping today will bring no rain..In that case they are in an advantage towards those running a wet track set up yesterday..surely on this track..maybe that explains yesterdays results !

we will soo this afternoon !

[Ranger]

well ya...talking about rain..what is the situation out there for today ?

maybe Kimi and lewis (and probably more)..took a gamble...and choose for a more dry set up...hoping today will bring no rain..In that case they are in an advantage towards those running a wet track set up yesterday..surely on this track..maybe that explains yesterdays results !

we will soo this afternoon !

I gather it is raining lightly at the moment. More rain is predicted for later this arvo.

[Dave B]

GP2 is running on a damp but slowly drying track, it's 14C out there.

[ioan]

Lewis looked terrible today. But the last time I said that on a Saturday was at Silverstone and he won by more than a minute! Should make for a chaotically good race tomorrow! :D

Here are some numbers to crunch. Does a fast speed in the wet mean low or high downforce? Usually it would mean low downforce but high downforce would stick the car through the corners in low grip and facilitate better exit speed through Ascari chicane (which precedes the speed trap)...
Speed trap:

Pos No Driver Time of Day Speed
1 10 Mark Webber 14:16:34 327.4
2 15 Sebastian Vettel 14:18:54 327.1
3 9 David Coulthard 14:11:21 326.0
4 3 Nick Heidfeld 14:19:45 324.3
5 14 Sebastien Bourdais 14:18:32 324.2
6 17 Rubens Barrichello 14:18:42 320.7
7 20 Adrian Sutil 14:19:34 320.3
8 16 Jenson Button 14:16:25 319.7
9 4 Robert Kubica 14:11:33 319.6
10 12 Timo Glock 14:17:41 318.2
11 1 Kimi Räikkönen 14:16:17 317.6
12 7 Nico Rosberg 14:10:56 316.8
13 8 Kazuki Nakajima 14:19:22 316.1
14 6 Nelsinho Piquet 14:19:59 315.1
15 5 Fernando Alonso 14:32:19 309.1
16 23 Heikki Kovalainen 14:59:25 307.9
17 11 Jarno Trulli 14:07:28 307.2
18 21 Giancarlo Fisichella 14:19:29 305.2
19 22 Lewis Hamilton 14:08:27 303.0
20 2 Felipe Massa 14:17:37 295.4

Great job today by Seb V. Couldn't have happened to too many nicer drivers on the grid. :up:

Funny, on the FIA site the Qualifying Session Maximum Speeds aren't those listed above. I suppose it's because they weren't measured at the same place.
See here:
http://www.fia.com/italygp/documents/ITA_08_Qualifying_Maximum_Speeds.pdf

For example speeds at 2nd intermediate, just before the highest speeds, posted above, are registered:


No Driver Speed (2nd intermediate)
15 S. VETTEL 322.9
23 H. KOVALAINEN 322.4
22 L. HAMILTON 320.9
4 R. KUBICA 319.3
14 S. BOURDAIS 319.0
10 M. WEBBER 319.0
2 F. MASSA 318.3
1 K. RAIKKONEN 318.3
3 N. HEIDFELD 318.3
9 D. COULTHARD 317.8
17 R. BARRICHELLO 316.5
11 J. TRULLI 316.5
12 T. GLOCK 315.1
20 A. SUTIL 315.0
16 J. BUTTON 314.5
21 G. FISICHELLA 314.2
7 N. ROSBERG 313.2
8 K. NAKAJIMA 312.8
5 F. ALONSO 312.7
6 N. PIQUET 312.5


It looks like many drivers achieved a higher speed at the intermediate 2 measuring point than at the max. speed trap point.
I would say that it looks like some were able to brake latter and thus were able to go past the speed trap at a higher speed.

I would also say that those who braked latter, and thus achieved higher end speeds, might have a more wet weather oriented set-up than those who needed to brake earlier but were also able to get a better acceleration because of running less wing and thus producing less drag down the straight.

All this is just theory so take it with a pinch of salt. Plus the times were not registered at the same moment, not even during the same lap, so it makes things even less obvious.

[Ranger]

Funny, on the FIA site the Qualifying Session Maximum Speeds aren't those listed above. I suppose it's because they weren't measured at the same place.
See here:
http://www.fia.com/italygp/documents/ITA_08_Qualifying_Maximum_Speeds.pdf

For example speeds at 2nd intermediate, just before the highest speeds, posted above, are registered:


No Driver Speed (2nd intermediate)
15 S. VETTEL 322.9
23 H. KOVALAINEN 322.4
22 L. HAMILTON 320.9
4 R. KUBICA 319.3
14 S. BOURDAIS 319.0
10 M. WEBBER 319.0
2 F. MASSA 318.3
1 K. RAIKKONEN 318.3
3 N. HEIDFELD 318.3
9 D. COULTHARD 317.8
17 R. BARRICHELLO 316.5
11 J. TRULLI 316.5
12 T. GLOCK 315.1
20 A. SUTIL 315.0
16 J. BUTTON 314.5
21 G. FISICHELLA 314.2
7 N. ROSBERG 313.2
8 K. NAKAJIMA 312.8
5 F. ALONSO 312.7
6 N. PIQUET 312.5


It looks like many drivers achieved a higher speed at the intermediate 2 measuring point than at the max. speed trap point.
I would say that it looks like some were able to brake latter and thus were able to go past the speed trap at a higher speed.

I would also say that those who braked latter, and thus achieved higher end speeds, might have a more wet weather oriented set-up than those who needed to brake earlier but were also able to get a better acceleration because of running less wing and thus producing less drag down the straight.

All this is just theory so take it with a pinch of salt. Plus the times were not registered at the same moment, not even during the same lap, so it makes things even less obvious.

Yeah, good call. Some drivers might've had the setup but not the balls (the official F1 word of the grand prix :p : ) to do so. And yes, all that matters will be resolved this arvo.

[janneppi]

A Finnish news site says Massa has an engine change for the race(using his free change option), does anyone know what's behind it?

[Ranger]

A Finnish news site says Massa has an engine change for the race(using his free change option), does anyone know what's behind it?

No, but it would follow that it'd be more useful for the GP with 80% of the lap spent at full throttle than the following GP's.

[ioan]

Bizarre, I think he was having a new engine already for Monza.

[janneppi]

That's what i thought as well. Have Ferrari really solved the engine issue?

Race starts behind the safety car it seems.

[yodasarmpit]

Totally gutted for Seb B

[ioan]

What happened to Bourdais?

[acorn]

A Finnish news site says Massa has an engine change for the race(using his free change option), does anyone know what's behind it?

i take it he's not allowed to alter the amount of fuel he had on at the end of qualifying. if so was an official there measuring the amount(are they allowed extra for testing the installation?)

[Daniel]

Totally gutted for Seb B
Yeah :bigcry:

[ioan]

Can't Lewis stop playing idiotic games at 200+ kph in the wet?!

[yodasarmpit]

?

[F1boat]

He is too aggressive. Almost crashed with Glock and Alonso. I hope that at least the results from Belgium will stay... he is too dangerous.

[ioan]

Hamilton almost takes out Alonso on the straight.
So, how much before he earnes himself a drive trough?

[yodasarmpit]

Ermm, he's racing hard.

From a spectator point of view it's great.

[BDunnell]

There was nothing wrong with what happened with Glock. It wasn't too aggressive — he could well not have known he was so far alongside. If he'd have chopped across on him, then it would have been out of order, but I didn't feel it was. The move on Alonso looked like it was too hard the first time I saw it (indeed, it looked like there was contact), but the on-board view made the pass look a lot more gentle. Again, there wasn't a chop that I could see. Part of the problem, as with the Raikkonen incident at Spa, is that Hamilton is coming up so fast on other people — they look like they're standing still in comparison, and braking ridiculously early.

But the most stupid thing so far in a brilliant race was Massa being asked to give that place back to Rosberg. There was no way he should have had to do that. It was a perfectly legitimate pass and he didn't cut the chicane.

[BDunnell]

Ermm, he's racing hard.

From a spectator point of view it's great.

Exactly — just as Michael Schumacher used to be racing hard when he used to make his customary chop across at the start. There was nothing wrong with that and there's nothing wrong with this.

[yodasarmpit]

But the most stupid thing so far in a brilliant race was Massa being asked to give that place back to Rosberg. There was no way he should have had to do that. It was a perfectly legitimate pass and he didn't cut the chicane.

Agreed on the Massa incident, nothing wrong with it in my view.

[F1boat]

Ermm, he's racing hard.

From a spectator point of view it's great.

To me it is ghastly. I am afraid that someone will suffer in the end...

[BDunnell]

To me it is ghastly. I am afraid that someone will suffer in the end...

Why is it so much worse than anything we've seen before? I really don't think it is, but I think some have short memories.

[yodasarmpit]

Either we want to see motor racing or start knitting.

[F1boat]

To me it looks like stock car racing. Only that the wheels are open.

[BDunnell]

To me it looks like stock car racing. Only that the wheels are open.

To me, with respect, that's nonsense. Have you ever seen stock car racing?

Goodness knows what some people on here would have said about the Villeneuve/Arnoux battle at Dijon in 1979 — the greatest scrap in F1 history. They would probably be shocked and appalled.

[yodasarmpit]

Ouch that second stop for Hamilton had to hurt, straight fight between him and Massa now.


Looks like Vettel has it in the bag as long as he stays on track, great driving.

[yodasarmpit]

That was a big chicane cut by Massa.

[yodasarmpit]

Where did Kimi get that pace from, he is absolutely flying.

[ioan]

Bravo Vettel! Congratulations!

Poor race by Ferrari.
Massa should have done better and pressed Heidfled more than that.

[Daniel]

I personally think Hamilton needs to be warned about his chopping maneuvers. If Mark doesn't get out of his car and beat the crap out of Hamilton I'll be surprised and disappointed.

Congrats to Seb :up:

[Tonieke]

I personally think Hamilton needs to be warned about his chopping maneuvers. If Mark doesn't get out of his car and beat the crap out of Hamilton I'll be surprised and disappointed.

Congrats to Seb :up:

He was in front so he can pick his line...at least that's what is been told here all the time...in defence of other incidents !

Vettel awesome race....really impressed he drove an almost error free race in these conditions ! Lewis made the best out of it 2...after yesterdays messed up qualifying..especialy compaired to Kimi !

[dwf1]

Minardi Wins!!!!!

[yodasarmpit]

I personally think Hamilton needs to be warned about his chopping maneuvers. If Mark doesn't get out of his car and beat the crap out of Hamilton I'll be surprised and disappointed.

Congrats to Seb :up:
Why, there was more than a car width available to Webber.

Get a grip and enjoy some real racing.

[BDunnell]

How great was Vettel! I haven't been more delighted to see someone win a GP for ages and ages. Brilliant, brilliant stuff.

[truefan72]

Why, there was more than a car width available to Webber.

Get a grip and enjoy some real racing.

:up:

Congrats Vettel, good for him good for STR, too bad for Bourdais, who knows how he would have done.

McLaren blew it for Hamilton, If he had stayed out, he would have won the race or finished second. there was no need to go to inters, the difference in time was marginal and the rain came down again anyway. Very frustrating.

oh well, off to Singapore now with a 1 point difference ( or maybe more by next week)

[VkmSpouge]

Vettel and Toro Rosso utterly deserving of their victory. Absolutely superb! A shame that Sebastien Bourdais' car stalled on the grid, he could have got a hat full of points too, a Toro Rosso one-two surely wasn't beyond question if Bourdais had gotten away.

Good racing down most of the field. Massa was unable to make an impression today but Hamilton managed to minimise the damage. Kimi Raikkonen was rather lethargic today except for the last 10 laps when he apparently woke up.

Robert Kubica did very well in the second half of the race, coming from more or less nowhere to take a good third place.

[Norwegian Blue]

Wow, just so happy to see vettel win, the way he drove he earned that so much! Sad for Bourdais though!

Championship closing up a little bit more, anyone noticed Kubica quietly closing back in again!

[BDunnell]

Championship closing up a little bit more, anyone noticed Kubica quietly closing back in again!

Parallel with Frentzen in '99, anyone?!

[truefan72]

How great was Vettel! I haven't been more delighted to see someone win a GP for ages and ages. Brilliant, brilliant stuff.

Yeah, it was historic in many ways. Somewhere, mr Minardi is smiling and probably shedding a tear. It would be great if STR honored him somehow.
I am happy for Vettel and it looks like the team is now a solid mid pack team with a chance to get even better. He's got to think real hard about switching to RBR.

Kovaleienen on the other hand, has once again showed why he is a solid#2 by not even trying to make it competitive with Vettel. Over the race distance, he just does not have it. Given that car and its prowess, finishing a distant second to an STR is not good enough. I would be even satisfied if he had challenged Vettel at some point during the race. I'm not to happy with Heike these days.

[gloomyDAY]

What a day for F1!

A rising star in our sights and a very fun race to watch.
My heart was pounding just about every lap.

Congratulations to STR and Vettel.

[F1boat]

This is the race of the year for me. A great, crushing victory for the underdog. Vettel was simply amazing. His team as well.
And the anthem combo still is brilliant :)

[ioan]

How great was Vettel! I haven't been more delighted to see someone win a GP for ages and ages. Brilliant, brilliant stuff.

:up:
I was very happy for him, so happy that I couldn't care less about what the 2 Ferrari drivers were doing.

[markabilly]

This is the race of the year for me. A great, crushing victory for the underdog. Vettel was simply amazing. His team as well.
And the anthem combo still is brilliant :)


Amen on the song. Reminds me of a time befoer most of you were born...Mario Andretti (the most underated driver of all time) won at Monza, and starting speaking to the crowd from the podium (no boring driver interview rooms back then ) In ITALIAN.
People were fainting to hear an Italian speaking Italian.....aftr winning at Monza

[jens]

It's been an amazing season in terms of competition, because a lot of teams have been able to really shine on occasions. From that perspective 2008 reminds a bit of 1997, when also various teams had a shot at an odd win or podiums.

Awesome drive by Vettel, almost unbelievable result!! I still can't believe a Toro Rosso has won a race. German and Italian anthems during the podium ceremony reminded me immediately Schumacher-days. :p :

Solid result for Kovalainen. Probably a McLaren should have been capable of beating an STR, but despite this I think it should be a satisfying result considering how tough this season has been.

Great job by the BMW guys and the strategy worked out nicely too as well as for Alonso.

Looking at the laptimes in the closing stages of the race, I wonder whether Hamilton was more on a wet-biased setup (couldn't fight against Massa in the end) and Räikkönen more on a dry-biased?

There were several 1-stopping drivers, whose strategy didn't quite work out as they needed to pit for inters soon after their stop. A shame Toyota was among them, which cost them the hope for points. :( It looks like they can achieve anything only in sunny and dry conditions. This is just too little to ever become a great team... Generally, two-stop strategy in changing conditions is usually more beneficial, allowing more opportunities to play with strategy and tyre choice.

Like yesterday Vettel said after quali that all the drivers did a great job, then I'd say it today too, because the conditions especially in the beginning were very difficult, but we didn't have any serious misjudgements, only one retirement during the whole race and just some spins.



But the most stupid thing so far in a brilliant race was Massa being asked to give that place back to Rosberg. There was no way he should have had to do that. It was a perfectly legitimate pass and he didn't cut the chicane.

Maybe Stewards wanted to prove that FIA is "fair" and wanted to give a debatable penalty to Massa to like it was the case with Hamilton at Spa. :p :

[BDunnell]

Maybe Stewards wanted to prove that FIA is "fair" and wanted to give a debatable penalty to Massa to like it was the case with Hamilton at Spa. :p :

I think they wanted to find out whether ioan would suddenly change his tune. ;)

[gloomyDAY]

I think they wanted to find out whether ioan would suddenly change his tune. ;) lol

I've never seen you pick on someone so much.
Although, sometimes I think ioan should change his name to imoan!

[Viktory]

what's with the personal attacks?

[emporer_k]

I dont think ive been so happy for the winning team/ driver.

Its been such a long time since a non manufacturer backed team won a race.

[ioan]

what's with the personal attacks?

As you see, some never grow up. :rolleyes:

[gloomyDAY]

what's with the personal attacks?Do you really need me to post the picture from your thread again?

[BDunnell]

lol

I've never seen you pick on someone so much.


Seriously, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm picking on him. I just disagree fundamentally with most of his comments and, more specifically, the rationale behind them, which I don't think constitutes a personal attack.

[Viktory]

Seriously, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm picking on him. I just disagree fundamentally with most of his comments and, more specifically, the rationale behind them, which I don't think constitutes a personal attack.

I was talking about gloomyday, sorry about the plural attack

[BDunnell]

I was talking about gloomyday, sorry about the plural attack

No worries. I can make personal attacks if you like. ;)

[ioan]

No worries. I can make personal attacks if you like. ;)

Don't worry, I know it very well. :laugh:

[BDunnell]

Don't worry, I know it very well. :laugh:

Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough. ;)

[ioan]

Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough. ;)

I wouldn't want to get us both banned before the end of the season! :D

[aryan]

Awesome race by Vettel. This is a Minardi, guys, for pete's sake. I mean, most of the mechanics and employees are still the same. And now, they have won a race. How awesome is that?

Hamilton fought hard and at times, maybe even a bit unfair. Still, he would have won the race if it had rained again and he didn't need to make the second pit stop. And that race, after starting from 15th, was also great.

Heikki just doesn't have it. He is fast at times, he is fast in tests, he is even fast in quali, but he doesn't have "it" over a race distance. Same really for Mark Webber. Is he ever going to win a race in his career? I doubt it.

Ferrari was mediocre, BMW and Alonso were good with strategy. Nelsinhio does not deserve that seat, he doesn't deserve to be in F1.

This has been a fantastic year guys. A freakin' fantastic one. We have had three new race winners (all were on the podium in Monza), we have had a non-manufacturer win a grand prix, we have had great racing all year round, from Istanbul to Silverstone to Monaco and Spa and Monza. We have a tight championship battle in our hand, with still 4 races to go. Can it get any better than this?

Oh well, yes it can. The stewards. Massa overtook Rosberg fair and square. The decision to let him go cost him at least 4-5 seconds, i.e, a couple of very important points.

The stewards have totally gotten it wrong in regards to this chicane cutting business. It's lame. Really lame.

[ShiftingGears]

Alonso and Kubica's performances were excellent. I thought Renault had screwed up when they sent Alonso out on the inters, but it worked brilliantly. I hope Alonso will get a podium or two in the remaining rounds.

Interestingly, with 4 grands prix remaining in the season, Kubica is still in mathematical contention, only 14 points behind Hamilton. I'd like to see him win the title :p :

[gloomyDAY]

Almost forgot! From the silly season:


Oh yeah, STR will get a podium! Mark will punch a wall and DC will cry.Well not necessarily. Mark was probably upset and DC was too confused on-track to care who won the race. I'm sure the RBR team are feeling a bit low on morale.