Hamilton Stripped of Win - Official

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7602830.stm

[F1boat]

I am a Ferrari fan, but that's humiliating for Formula 1. I am saddened. It was a great victory for Hamilton.

[ioan]

Not sure I agree with the FIA on this one.
I'll have to read the motivation of this decision first.

[herra47]

Good for Massa and Ferrari. Who says Kimi is not good second driver..

[Bradley]

I don't like races to be decided in court, but in this case it is justified imo.

[ChickenMcNugget]

A very sad result. And after a race for the lead which was not only such a blast to watch in the last few laps, but which was obviously as fairly fought as a naturally competitive situation involving cars can get. Is there anything left to say?

Seriously, as an observer you can take so much, but these kind of decisions are beginning to intrusively deaden the sport for me.

[MrJan]

That's such a bull move that just shows how even people in power in the sport are biased by their opinion of Lewis. Hamilton had to cut the chicane because Kimi squeezed him (fairly) but yielded the position to where he'd have been anyway, right behind Kimi.

[christophulus]

I really can't see how this is justified. Regardless, Hamilton is still leading the championship, but this is decision is really hard to agree with

[markabilly]

What?????

Well as I said......if the track were dry, then maybe.......but????

[F1boat]

This is bad for the sport. It will fuel the FIArrari speculation and guarantess that nobody will try overtaking anymore.

[harsha]

what the #$@%$%^%$^#&$%^&$^@#$%^

Fools and Idiots Association strikes again

[Bradley]

That's such a bull move that just shows how even people in power in the sport are biased by their opinion of Lewis. Hamilton had to cut the chicane because Kimi squeezed him (fairly) but yielded the position to where he'd have been anyway, right behind Kimi.
Let's wait and see if it was the chicane, or the 4x line changing. With the chicane move I agree there was nothing wrong (imho).

[Robinho]

that depends on what you think he did - if you thinks its fort he weaving you were complaining about then thats not what was penalised, but for the advangtage gained by cutting the chicance - i can see some rationale for a slap on the wrists or even a nominal (say 5sec) penalty, but not for 25 seconds - i have a feeling that there will be an appeal over this one

[J4MIE]

Absolutely and utterly rediculous decision and I am absolutely gobsmacked.

I've never said it before but I feel that almost all the decisions the FIA are making are ruining their sport :down:

I hope Lewis still wins the title and gives them the two fingered salute!

:angryfire

[F1boat]

McLaren will appeal and will win the appeal IMO.

[m.lowe]

How ing stupid this is
The FIA want racing they get it
Hamilton goes off but lets Kimi passed so he wont be penalised then this happens

Does anyone have a contact for these idiot belgian organising stewards

McLaren should sue or threaten to pullout and push ahead with other teams and form their own championship so Ferrari can race themselves

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

ABSOLUTELY DISGRACEFUL!!!!!!!!!!

kimi puts him off the road, hamilton comes back on, drops back then overtakes and kimi spins off the track, what kind of advantage did hamilton gain!...NON WHAT SO EVER!....but hes penilised 25 seconds.....F1 IS DEAD TO ME!.....RACING..WHAT RACING!

[dwf1]

I can not believe that!!!! If Lewis had not cut and carried on, he would have hit Kimi out the race and given a drive-through for an avoidable accident......So he avoids it, gives the position back and gets a drive-through.......this is as mad as the Keegan/Ashley saga at Newcastle.

I hope McLaren appeal!!!!! FIA has just killed so called RACING!

[J4MIE]

How ing stupid this is
The FIA want racing they get it
Hamilton goes off but lets Kimi passed so he wont be penalised then this happens

Does anyone have a contact for these idiot belgian organising stewards

Mark I believe they are the same stewards at every race to try to ensure consistency....god knows they are Ferrari fans :mad:

[AndyRAC]

Where does the 25 sec penalty come from? Who dreamt the penalty up? Why not a fine? Questions, questions?

[F1boat]

Absolutely and utterly rediculous decision and I am absolutely gobsmacked.

I've never said it before but I feel that almost all the decisions the FIA are making are ruining their sport :down:

I hope Lewis still wins the title and gives them the two fingered salute!

:angryfire

I want FM to win, but not in that way. Such victory is pointless.

[christophulus]

Confirmed the penalty was for cutting the chicane and gaining an advantage

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7602830.stm

[m.lowe]

Confirmed the penalty was for cutting the chicane and gaining an advantage

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7602830.stm


How the hell did he do that he give the place back for gods sake

Scrap F1 Lewis and come and do the WRC

[jens]

I'm not usually a believer in conspiracies, but honestly I have to say that McLaren is getting penalized way too easily, this time almost for nothing. :down:

Also Coulthard has been crashing for the whole year and has got no penalties. Kovalainen got a penalty only for one thing. :down:

[harsha]

i nearly got turned off f1 after the Spy-Gate incident...but this freakin incident can really put me over the line unless Mclaren wins the appeal

[christophulus]

It's such a shame that one of the best races of the year so far has descended into a farce. I'm pretty sure McLaren will appeal and I really hope they win

[inimitablestoo]

Alright, who let iMoan in the stewards' room? ;)

So essentially this is what has happened in the last couple of weeks: Ferrari nearly kill someone in Spain and get a slap on the wrist; Lewis Hamilton races somebody and gets penalised for it. Well, as long as that's the way we're racing, I'll go and find something less contrived. NASCAR perhaps...

Of course, it's worth remembering that because they've had to surrender £100 million to Max's Chelsea Dungeon Fund, McLaren haven't got the same amount of money to spend on backhanders as certain other people...

[jens]

Good for Massa and Ferrari. Who says Kimi is not good second driver..

:rotflmao: Good to have a laugh in such serious thread. :D

Anyway, I hope this case will get a fair solution. McLaren should definetely appeal and win it too!

[VkmSpouge]

I don't see how Hamilton gained an advantage between the chicane and La Source. He allowed Raikkonen to re-take the lead and was back into the same position he had been just before the chicane, ie. challenging Raikkonen for the lead of the race. I can't see where Hamilton gained the advantage.

[philipbain]

The FIA is a joke.

Ferrari put peoples health & safety at risk in Valencia with ludicrous pitlane antics and get a small and meaningless fine. One race later a driver is forced into a move which he then immediately reverses and is approved by the race director and is punished with what is effectively a 8 point penalty.

F1 doesnt need the FIA, infact it is ruining the sport and holding it back from becoming more popular, what with Max Mosley's antics, the ridiculous witch hunts from last season and a string of obscene and out-proportioned penalties against McLaren this season.

[MrJan]

:rotflmao: Good to have a laugh in such serious thread. :D

I'm not so sure it is a serious thread, it all seems like bit of a joke to me. Never mind Max bringing the sport into disrepute it's the crazies in the steward's office that are the laughing stock :D

Last season Lewis lost the title because of his own stupidity, it'll be a travesty if he misses out this season because of a 4 point penalty which makes no sense.

[pettersolberg29]

Calm down everyone!

It was a great race, Lewis will probably still win the WC, and (I know I'll get slaughtered for this, but oh well) it makes more talking points and gets more people discussing F1. I'd say it even adds to the excitement!

Furthermore, Nick Heidfeld is my fav driver, so happy days! 2nd! Hooray!

[Jag_Warrior]

Cost saving idea for the FIA: just award the Constructors and World Driving Championship to Ferrari and whichever Ferrari driver they want to have the WDC Title. Hundreds of millions of dollars can be saved. Obviously the racing doesn't mean anything.

Yet another reason why Formula One will never be popular in the U.S. American fans won't watch a sport where old fat guys in suits decide the results, instead of the competitors.

What little credibility that the FIA had left is now gone, IMO.

[markabilly]

I guess they got worried that if LH gets too far ahead, the TV revenue will collapse. Now we can not have that, now can we?????

But again, from the perspective of a dry track condition, then there seems to be some justification for such a penalty. My problem is that the rack was wet.

And this shows how wet and difficult: "In a chaotic final couple of laps, Heidfeld jumped from eighth to third place on the track with what he called a "hero or zero decision" to come in for wet-weather tyres with two laps to go."

Autosport

[markabilly]

I guess they got worried that if LH gets too far ahead, the TV revenue will collapse. Now we can not have that, now can we?????

But again, from the perspective of a dry track condition, then there seems to be some justification for such a penalty. My problem is that the rack was wet.

And this shows how wet and difficult: "In a chaotic final couple of laps, Heidfeld jumped from eighth to third place on the track with what he called a "hero or zero decision" to come in for wet-weather tyres with two laps to go."

Autosport

[markabilly]

I guess they got worried that if LH gets too far ahead, the TV revenue will collapse. Now we can not have that, now can we?????

But again, from the perspective of a dry track condition, then there seems to be some justification for such a penalty. My problem is that the rack was wet.

And this shows how wet and difficult: "In a chaotic final couple of laps, Heidfeld jumped from eighth to third place on the track with what he called a "hero or zero decision" to come in for wet-weather tyres with two laps to go."

Autosport

[Bradley]

I'm pretty sure McLaren will appeal and I really hope they win

There might be added another 25 seconds for blocking Kimi off 2 corners later from retaking the lead by changing lines 4 times ...

[FIA]

Absolutely perfectic decision, McLaren should appeal.

[VkmSpouge]

I would like to hear how the race stewards decided Hamilton gained an advantaged by cutting the chicane.

[F1boat]

They will and they win the appeal IMO. And I think that if there is a punishment it shoould mirror the one at Valencia - a fine.

[F1boat]

They will and they win the appeal IMO. And I think that if there is a punishment it shoould mirror the one at Valencia - a fine.

[Robinho]

i was prepared for McLaren to not get cut any slack after last year, and they have, perhaps, been dealt with harshly on a few occasions this year, but also pretty fairly, but in this case i think they have finally lost the plot - the guys raced hard and from what i saw fairly, regardless of who was involved i would call this as a stupid ruling and i hope in this case McLaren stand up and appeal, as to date this year they've (understandbly) not complained too loudly about anything but here i'd say they have the high ground, and that has taken a lot after last years events

[SGWilko]

Ia anyone really honestly surprised by this.

It's McLaren gawd darnit. I mean, the FIA would fine the team for Lewis leaving skids on in the toilet bowl.

[ready2rock]

What a pile of BS.
If Lewis kept his foot in and took the place, then its a fair call.
Lewis backed off, Kimi got ahead then Lewis passed him fairly into the next corner.
I was begininng to think F1 was back on track after a very exciting race today, but now im not sure. FIA/Stewards deserve a slap round the face and they should be ashamed.

Its a shame as Lewis drove brilliantly today.

"Ferrari Internal Assistance" :( :(

[Bobby_Hamlin]

There might be added another 25 seconds for blocking Kimi off 2 corners later from retaking the lead by changing lines 4 times ...

This isn't the Indy Racing League - what happens in situations like that is between the drivers - and besides if this were the case then they would need to strip Michael Schumacher of several titles.

This is clearly a pathetic decision regardless of any partisan support anyone might have - it was an exciting finish to the race and that particular incident ultimately had little bearing on the outcome given the conditions of the subsequent 2 laps. It is sickening and cannot be in the sport's best interests.

[stevewf1]

An entirely predictable decision by the stewards, McLaren being penalised. Every time theres the slightest incident, they get a penalty. And yet Ferrari always get away with it. You only have to look at the last race where Massa kept the win despite nearly causing a collision in the pitlane. Yet in GP2, drivers have been penalised for similar incidents. I'm afraid there are too many examples now of the blatant bias towards Ferrari by the FIA, and stewards. The sport has become a farce, and the manufacturers should form their own breakaway series, and leave Ferrari to compete in Formula 1 by themselves, at least the FIA would get their wish of Ferrari winning every week.

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

a slap around the face!? deserve a brain transplant and a pair of glasses more like!

Right, I'm off to open the champagne, just as I did after the spygate hearing when, as today, justice was done.

Note to Mclaren - Don't break rules, don't get punished.

[Hondo]

McLaren won't appeal. They know if they do, Max & Co will find they have copied Ferrari designs by using round, black tires on their car, fine them 100 million Euros, and take away their points for the 2008 season. The appeal process for anyone is a waste of time as long as the FIA decides the appeal.

[PSfan]

Well, I hope MacLeran appeal this, and I expect them to lose, and maybe face a harsher penalty...

Its to bad for Hamilton cause had the incident happened earlier in the race they could have negotiated a let Kimi by again kinda of resolution like what happened to Alonos b4, but alas, the stewerts deemed it was worth a stop and go, which equates to 25s after the checkers which means Ron Dennis, when in doubt... don't take "we had probably complied" to equal home free...

Now is the results official? I do recall a protest that was suppose to be un-related... This 25s penalty might become moot if Hamilton gets DQ'd for whatever Ferrari are complaining about...

[Daniel]

I actually agree that Lewis did something wrong and that he gained advantage even if he did give the place back but the penalty is absolutely undeserved. Lewis gave the place back but jumped straight into Kimi's slipstream thereby giving him an advantage compared to where he was before he went off. In my opinion if you go off and gain a position you should give it back and not in such a way that just sets you up for a pass straight after. I will say again I don't agree with the win being taken away from him though....

[Jag_Warrior]

There might be added another 25 seconds for blocking Kimi off 2 corners later from retaking the lead by changing lines 4 times ...

25 seconds isn't enough. Hamilton should be stripped of his Super License and banned from the sport for at least ten years.

BTW, you might want to watch the replay and note that Kimi was also blocking, plus he ran into Hamilton's car. But that was probably Hamilton's fault too. Throw another ten years on the ban. Allow Hamilton to return to F1 when he's 43.

[VX_Rules]

Load of bollocks just to closen the dc.

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

no the fia would ban him for bein to old

[MrJan]

This isn't the Indy Racing League - what happens in situations like that is between the drivers - and besides if this were the case then they would need to strip Michael Schumacher of several titles.

This is clearly a pathetic decision regardless of any partisan support anyone might have - it was an exciting finish to the race and that particular incident ultimately had little bearing on the outcome given the conditions of the subsequent 2 laps. It is sickening and cannot be in the sport's best interests.

Driver's are only allowd to make one movement across the track to defend a position. I don't agree that Hamilton was out of order in this respect but I assume that's what's being referred to. Of course Kimi had pulled the same move when Lewis was catching so it should be irrelevant.

[VkmSpouge]

I actually agree that Lewis did something wrong and that he gained advantage even if he did give the place back but the penalty is absolutely undeserved. Lewis gave the place back but jumped straight into Kimi's slipstream thereby giving him an advantage compared to where he was before he went off.

But where he was before the chicane was in Raikkonen's slipstream, so there was no advantage there.

[N. Jones]

Wow - I guess my question is, when a driver takes a position illegally, how long does he have to stay behind the driver he took the position form before he can attack again? It looks to me like the stewards believe it wasn't long enough.

[Shalafi]

I actually agree that Lewis did something wrong and that he gained advantage even if he did give the place back but the penalty is absolutely undeserved. Lewis gave the place back but jumped straight into Kimi's slipstream thereby giving him an advantage compared to where he was before he went off. In my opinion if you go off and gain a position you should give it back and not in such a way that just sets you up for a pass straight after. I will say again I don't agree with the win being taken away from him though....

Kimi thinks that way too:

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2008/09/707032

Im too lazy (like Kimi) to translate this because its finnish and most people here dont give a value for it because its not english... ;)

[Bobby_Hamlin]

Driver's are only allowd to make one movement across the track to defend a position. I don't agree that Hamilton was out of order in this respect but I assume that's what's being referred to. Of course Kimi had pulled the same move when Lewis was catching so it should be irrelevant.

It's my understanding that the one move 'rule' is more of a gentleman's agreement and isn't enforced by the stewards.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

Wow - I guess my question is, when a driver takes a position illegally, how long does he have to stay behind the driver he took the position form before he can attack again? It looks to me like the stewards believe it wasn't long enough.

Exactly - he was catching Kimi quickly in adverse conditions - it wasn't a normal situation and as such some common sense ought to be applied, but of course that's far too much to ask in F1.

[m.lowe]

How can you have an advantage at that speed in a short space of time after letting the guy back on?

the dude in front is blocking you and if he cannot hold his position then he loses the advantage of being first

if behind you still have to try and get past

[ioan]

It's my understanding that the one move 'rule' is more of a gentleman's agreement and isn't enforced by the stewards.

Wrong understanding, but that isn't the cause of the "penalty".

[Caroline]

It's my understanding that the one move 'rule' is more of a gentleman's agreement and isn't enforced by the stewards.

It is a rule, brought in during the late nineties. It was intended to stop some pretty scary moves during racing.

I don't enjoy watching a race and then finding out that the winner didn't win. Crap penalty. Silly FIA. They will turn people off watching and just find people tuning in for the sports reports on the news at this rate.

[Daniel]

But where he was before the chicane was in Raikkonen's slipstream, so there was no advantage there.

He went off. You can't just make a mistake, go off on the grass and then let the other car by when it suits you.

If Lewis has made the corner and slipstreamed Kimi and made the pass it would have been fine of course. But the thing is he didn't make the corner and he went off and gained a place and then gave it back at his leisure. If you go off there should be a disadvantage and you can't simply let the other car by when it's convenient for you and have a net gain out of the whole thing.

If you look at the incident again you'll see that Lewis made a gain out of the whole thing.

Now that I think of it this is Lewis' second offence for the same thing and although he let Kimi though he might as well not have considering how he did it and I'm actually thinking perhaps he does deserve it.

[MrJan]

It's my understanding that the one move 'rule' is more of a gentleman's agreement and isn't enforced by the stewards.

No it's a proper rule. Looking at the video it wouldn't be enforced anyway. Lewis moved across the track to block and then back across to take the racing line which is all justified.

[ICKE]

Raikkonen has said that Hamilton fully deserved his penalty.

I agree, it was a ruthless attempt to gain ground by cutting corners. It can not be allowed.

Don't do the crime if you can't pay the fine. :)

[Tonieke]

He went off. You can't just make a mistake, go off on the grass and then let the other car by when it suits you.

If Lewis has made the corner and slipstreamed Kimi and made the pass it would have been fine of course. But the thing is he didn't make the corner and he went off and gained a place and then gave it back at his leisure. If you go off there should be a disadvantage and you can't simply let the other car by when it's convenient for you and have a net gain out of the whole thing.

If you look at the incident again you'll see that Lewis made a gain out of the whole thing.

Now that I think of it this is Lewis' second offence for the same thing and although he let Kimi though he might as well not have considering how he did it and I'm actually thinking perhaps he does deserve it.

what I saw was Lewis and kimi next to each other goin into the corner..lewis maybe even slightly in front and being pushed of the track by kimi...so what advantage for lewis when he let Kimi pass again after the corner ?

[Tonieke]

FIA should feel ashamed for this decission..very ashamed !

[Big Ben]

Yoohooo. I didn´t think they´ll do anything because it affects deeply the result of the race but they did the right thing and penalized the cheat.

It´s just amazing how some say he gave the place back.... what an embarrassing simulation...

[F1boat]

McLaren appeal the decision, I think that they will win.

[Sleeper]

The reverse camera angle showed slight contact between Lewis and Kimi, who was trying to push him off anyway. The only advantage Hamilton had was that he was better on the brakes than Raikkonen, I mean he had to slow his acceleration to let Kimi past, how can that be considered an advantage? If anyone gained an advantage it was Raikkonen, bloody stupid decision from bloody stupid people.

[Daniel]

what I saw was Lewis and kimi next to each other goin into the corner..lewis maybe even slighty in front and being pushed of the track by kimi...so what advantage for lewis when he let Kimi pass again after the corner ?

It's up to the person passing to pass the car in front. Kimi didn't need to let him go around or anything. Personally I don't think Lewis was going to make that corner with how he entered it even if Kimi's car hadn't been there.

[shazbot]

One of the most exciting race finishes and the FIA decide in their wisdom to take all the gloss away. I, like many others feel cheated and deflated. Petty officialdom needs to take a back seat and let the racing do the talking. We shouldn't be nit picking over the replays, Kimi did this, Lewis did that. It was good hard racing - why can't we just leave it at that? I just hope that Ferrari where not digging away behind the scenes (oh yes they do) in this disgraceful decision.

One thoroughly disgusted F1 fan.

[Daniel]

Raikkonen has said that Hamilton fully deserved his penalty.

I agree, it was a ruthless attempt to gain ground by cutting corners. It can not be allowed.

Don't do the crime if you can't pay the fine. :)

Eh? How do you work that one out? Did you watch the race? Did you not notice it was wet and slippery?

[christophulus]

Did anyone notice the high kerbs on the inside of that corner? Hamilton had no choice but to go across the tarmac on the inside, or he would have bounced straight over them, into Raikkonen and "caused a collision".

If there was a wall there would Raikkonen have had the right to squeeze Hamilton into it?

[drivacee]

Are the stewards on the payrole of Ferrari ?
Just what is going on here ? Mclaren admitted the imformation they illegally recieved last year,they put their hands up.in the hope that it was END of the problem.They let ferrari win last year by making silly mistakes to let Ferrari win the drivers title,which was plain to see.BUT moseley still must think Ron tried to stich him up with the Sun Paper thing.Too much bad feeling here!
Mclaren needs to appeal AND get all the other teams to break away and then Ferrari have NO one to race against ,so they can win their own races,but they might then complain about the marshals
Sorry I am getting really p***ed off with these desicions,all in ferrari,sfavour it STINKS.just what did Hamilton do wrong ? We want to see pure racing,what we get now is NO overtaking or Ferrari will protest you !

[Daniel]

Did anyone notice the high kerbs on the inside of that corner? Hamilton had no choice but to go across the tarmac on the inside, or he would have bounced straight over them, into Raikkonen and "caused a collision".

If there was a wall there would Raikkonen have had the right to squeeze Hamilton into it?

Now that you mention it I'm sure if there were stairs Raikkonen would have pushed Lewis down them and slept with Lewis' brother.

Now ummm..... can we talk about things that ACTUALLY happened during the race and not what if there had been a wall or a goat or a ice cream van parked at the side of the road etc etc.

[Tonieke]

It's up to the person passing to pass the car in front. Kimi didn't need to let him go around or anything. Personally I don't think Lewis was going to make that corner with how he entered it even if Kimi's car hadn't been there.

ok..even with your view of things..did that gave him advantage after the corner ? Lewis even lost advantage being next to kimi before the corner and being behind him after the corner....

[m.lowe]

Kimi is just pissed because he lost control and smacked the wall (yes I know it was raining) but the others up top kept control
Could we be seeing the next whinger to replace Mansell
Cue a beating from Mansell fans now

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren have lodged an appeal against Lewis Hamilton's demotion to third place in the Belgian Grand Prix, the FIA confirmed on Sunday night.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70402

They are fully justified in doing so IMHO :up: It may be risky as there is the possibility the penalty could be increased, but they simply had to appeal.

[BTCC2]

Well after Hamiltons immunity from rule breaking last year I think this is fair. Personal crane service anyone?

[BTCC2]

Well after Hamiltons immunity from rule breaking last year I think this is fair. Personal crane service anyone?

[Caroline]

.

It´s just amazing how some say he gave the place back.... what an embarrassing simulation...

I don't understand. He did give the place back. That is a fact.

I agree. He gained a small advantage from the corner, I don't think that it was worthy of this penalty though. You'd be forgiven for thinking that he had punted Raikkonen into the wall and cruised to victory scattering all before him. Or something.

:o

[Jag_Warrior]

It´s just amazing how some say he gave the place back.... what an embarrassing simulation...

It's amazing that is what was written on the official Formula One website:


Battling for the lead as rain started to fall in the dying laps, Hamilton ran across the Bus Stop chicane as he attempted to pass Raikkonen. He correctly surrendered the position, but then dived past the Ferrari going into the La Source hairpin.

However, Raikkonen quickly retook the lead as Hamilton ran wide at Pouhon, only to then lose it for good as he spun into the wall and retirement, handing the British driver his fifth win of the season.

Just because Max Mosley may have castration fantasies, it's unfortunate that his band of blind mice stewards feel the need to do the same to F1. Good hard racing is disallowed in the current F1 Powder Puff. Paint the cars pink, hire Danica Patrick and make sure no one gets within 50 feet of another car.

[Big Ben]

ok..even with your view of things..did that gave him advantage after the corner ? Lewis even lost advantage being next to kimi before the corner and being behind him after the corner....

he didn't lose any advantage... he just simulated he was giving back the position after cutting the chicane.

[Daniel]

ok..even with your view of things..did that gave him advantage after the corner ? Lewis even lost advantage being next to kimi before the corner and being behind him after the corner....

Thing is there is only 1 line through that corner and Lewis wasn't able to go through side by side with Kimi (he went off remember?). You just can't turn a mistake like going off into an opportunity to drop straight into the slipstream of the driver in front and take them back almost straight away. If you allowed this sort of thing drivers would just drive off the road, give the position back and jump back into the slipstream of the car in front for a guaranteed overtake. Now I don't feel Lewis went off on purpose to gain an advantage but it does seem like he gained an advantage by going off the track and that is something which is wrong. I think if Lewis had stayed behind for another corner or 2 the result would be the same and we wouldn't be here talking about this.

[Tonieke]

btw..now that we are talking about Marchals and punishments..what penalty did Bourdais got for driving into the back of Trulli at the start ?

[Aikidoka]

I've not posted to these forums in ages, just lurking and reading, but this latest farce has led me to comment.

F1 and the FIA have a real image problem. Firstly the Max thing - yes he's FIA, but most of the media coverage used mentioned F1 when explaining who Max Mosley was, so as far as the general public is concerned, he is the head of F1 (which in a sense he is... but what I'm trying to say is that the scandal probably tarnished F1 more than most motorsport). There was the problem in the past few years with Schumacher winning everything. Sometimes controversially, but the majority of the time on merit.

There was the 'spying' fiasco, which thankfully didn't impact on the WDC, and Kimi deservedly won the WDC on merit.

Now, again, the outcome of a race is decided after the event. Like him or not, Lewis managed to keep the car between the green bits for most of the last 2 laps. Driving in trecherous conditions, and passing Kimi, not once, but twice - Fairly. Had he not passed him a second time, I would have had some sympathy with the argument that he had gained an advantage through the chicane, but this is just ridiculous.

I really don't see who has gained from this - F1 has been hurt again with accusations of fixing the result to try and make the WDC more exciting, Ferrari have been accused of having a helping hand, McLaren still lead the WDC and WCC championships, albeit by a depleated margin, and once again racing has been punished.

If the aim was to bring the WDC closer - as I pointed out to my Dad when he was saying that Lewis was beginning to look comfortable - the way the result stood at the chequered flag, Lewis needed one engine blowup and Massa to win for the WDC to be brought right back to a hair's breadth.

Had we not already bought non-refundable tickets for Silverstone next year, I wouldn't have bothered. I've been incredibly loyal to this sport for many years, but it's really getting to the point where my patience can't be stretched much further.

[Bagwan]

When I saw that taking place I kinda wondered about whether there would be trouble over this . Indeed , there is .

Lewis went off-track and , although he let Kimi back into the lead , he was granted the perfect entry into Kimi's slipstream with the move .
Had he lft any attempt until after the next corner , he would not have been changed with this .

The "concertina" effect , with Kimi ahead into the corner , would have allowed a greater distance between before La Source .
He could have gotten him up the hill .
It wasn't just for Kimi that second wasn't good enough .

[Tonieke]

Thing is there is only 1 line through that corner and Lewis wasn't able to go through side by side with Kimi (he went off remember?). You just can't turn a mistake like going off into an opportunity to drop straight into the slipstream of the driver in front and take them back almost straight away. If you allowed this sort of thing drivers would just drive off the road, give the position back and jump back into the slipstream of the car in front for a guaranteed overtake. Now I don't feel Lewis went off on purpose to gain an advantage but it does seem like he gained an advantage by going off the track and that is something which is wrong. I think if Lewis had stayed behind for another corner or 2 the result would be the same and we wouldn't be here talking about this.


Um daniel..it was Lewis being on the racingline..not Kimi...

[Viktory]

After watching it again, I am actually siding with the people who said it was deserved (thought it was pretty extreme when first heard of it). He raced alongside him down the stright, backing off just a little bit, cutting right across the back of Kimi and diving down the inside. He would not have been able to have that run on him if he had got through the chicane legally. This is my opinion and I tried not to be too biased.

[christophulus]

Surely Hamilton easing off to let Raikkonen past negated any advantage he had from cutting the chicane - Raikkonen then had the momentum going into the first corner.

I'll wait and see what the results of any appeal may be but I'm pretty disappointed it has come to this

[Big Ben]

now amuses me when I remeber those images where Hamilton was explaining to Heidfeld and Massa just how smart he is and how he overtook Kimi.

it's really a shame Kimi wasn't there to take advantage of this decision.

[Gubbi]

So completely corrupt.

Hamilton cut through the bus stop chikane to avoid colliding with Raikkonen. Hamilton's front wheels where clearly in front of Raikkonen's rear wheels, so Raikkonen forcing Hamilton off the track was an illegal move.

On top of that Hamilton lets Raikkonen pass him down the straight. Raikkonen does a zig-zag manoeuvre and loses speed and Hamilton overtakes him again.

Then Raikkonen makes contact with Hamilton's tire in the corner after the straight. Similar situation caused a puncture on Heikki Kovalainen's car in the Turkey gran prix.

If anyone should be penalized it should be Raikkonen

Last three laps here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAD3yUUefoQ)

Cheers

[Tonieke]

After watching it again, I am actually siding with the people who said it was deserved (thought it was pretty extreme when first heard of it). He raced alongside him down the stright, backing off just a little bit, cutting right across the back of Kimi and diving down the inside. He would not have been able to have that run on him if he had got through the chicane legally. This is my opinion and I tried not to be too biased.

Viktory..what you say is pretty contradictory..you say he took advantage....but you also say he backed of a little to have Kimi pass him again ? so what's left of the advantage ?..and the reason why Lewis passed Kimi again so easaly was simply because he was a lot faster in the condtions of that moment..simple as that !

[Sleeper]

I've just rewatched the replay on ITV's website and I was wrong, they didnt touch in the chicane, Hamilton just dodged going over what were foot high concrete kerbing, just behind the red and white kerbing, that would have undoubtedly launched his car into Kimi's.

However, at no point down the straight into La Source was Hamilton in Kimi's slipstream, they were close to being side-by-side with Kimi definitely ahead and pulling away because Lewis had to back off to let him past. Hamilton got him under braking fair and square because Kimi was braking so much earlier in the slick conditions. As I said earlier, the only advantage Hamilton had was that he is much better on the brakes at overtacking than most in the field.

Besides I recall seing this kind of thing before, possibly with Schumacher, were a car would cut the chicane and give the place back but in such a way that they can immidiately line up for an overtacking move into the next corner without any penalties being given. Cant remember when or exactly where (possibly Monza) or even exactly who, but I definitely remember seeing it happen before.

[Jag_Warrior]

it's really a shame Kimi wasn't there to take advantage of this decision.

Yeah, that is a shame. Say, why wasn't Kimi there? :p

[Viktory]

Viktory..what you say is pretty contradictory..you say he took advantage....but you also say he backed of a little to have Kimi pass him again ? so what's left of the advantage ?..and the reason why Lewis passed Kimi again so easaly was simply because he was a lot faster in the condtions of that moment..simple as that !

the advantage is that he was so much closer than he would have been, just cutting across the back of Kimi and diving down the inside. Look at the video and you will understand what I mean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfLs2-w1NlY

[Daniel]

Um daniel..it was Lewis being on the racingline..not Kimi...

So the racing line was off the track was it? :confused:

[Sleeper]

the advantage is that he was so much closer than he would have been, just cutting across the back of Kimi and diving down the inside. Look at the video and you will understand what I mean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfLs2-w1NlY
What makes you assume that in those conditions Raikkonen would have been able to accelerate out of the corner quickly and not have Hamilton over the back of him, given that he was so much slower in the wet anyway (the chicane looked considerably wetter than Le Fagnia (sp?) were he spun). Pure speculation given how those last 3 laps went anyway.

[Tonieke]

So the racing line was off the track was it? :confused:

I mend before goin into the corner...

[Simmi]

They just have to wade into everything dont they. I don't see why they can't just let things lie from time to time, especially in this case as it turned out to be a victimless crime.

What a way to disillussion F1 fans who have just witnessed a great race, only to find out hours later the result has been altered.

They get one of probably about five decent races this year and then they go and mess it up after the flag.

[GridGirl]

I think Hamilton did gain an advantage but on a wet track trying to quantify that advantage is extremely difficult. IMO if you take the whole chicane incident out of the equation I think Lewis would have passed Kimi regardless. The stewards are being incredibly harsh on Lewis but to be honest I can say that I'm at all suprised.

[jens]

Well after Hamiltons immunity from rule breaking last year I think this is fair. Personal crane service anyone?

"Crane service" wasn't forbidden by the rules during the time of the European GP, that's why it was possible to use this option.

[Daniel]

I mend before goin into the corner...
You do realise that you have to go through corners and be on the racing line in the corners to be fast don't you? :)

[SkidCarrera]

This is 100% about the FIA and local stewards favouring Ferrari over Mclaren, and nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of Lewis's on-track moves.

An indication of the Belgians' distaste for anyone beating the red cars came on the podium, where the crowd loudly booed Hamilton, and roared with enthusiasm when Massa got his second place trophy.

He drove brilliantly, and was the only driver to control his car for the last 2 laps at any sort of pace. This was a thoroughly deserved win!

If this ludicrous penalty stands, and Lewis loses the championship by 6 points or less, I for one will be scratching the result out of my copy of Autocourse and writing the real one in with a crayon.

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren's view:

"We looked at all our data and also made it available to the FIA stewards. It showed that, having lifted, Lewis was 6km/h slower than Kimi as they crossed the start/finish line.

"Having passed the lead back to Kimi, Lewis repositioned his car, moving across and behind Kimi to the right-hand line and then outbraked him into the hairpin. Based on this data, we have no option other than to register our intention to appeal."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70404


As I said earlier, the only advantage Hamilton had was that he is much better on the brakes at overtacking than most in the field.
:up:

[Tonieke]

the advantage is that he was so much closer than he would have been, just cutting across the back of Kimi and diving down the inside. Look at the video and you will understand what I mean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfLs2-w1NlY

so much closer ? before the corner he was next to Kimi..lewis even being on the racing line..after the corner he was behind Kimi not ?

+ found Kimi's weaving also pretty dangerous just before Lewis made the pass..not to speak about Kimi hitting Lewis on the rear tire just after that..what about those moves ? Did the marchals noticed those to ?

[1zorro]

I am a Ferrari fan, but that's humiliating for Formula 1. I am saddened. It was a great victory for Hamilton.
lose some, win some. That is reality. Stop being a cry baby and accept the decision. :o

[Daniel]

McLaren's view:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70404


:up:
Man I hate stupid n00bish stuff like that. Screw the data. In situations like this judgments should be made on what we can see rather than what some datalogging software says.

[dave391]

im not happy ferrari get away with it again dont they like drivers overtaking them lewis is the only driver.he lets back in the lead then overtakes him at the hairpin kimi was swirving all over the place and lewis dived up the inside fair move he was quicker in the wet the best driver won i thought i hope the team appeal and win

[Aikidoka]

Man I hate stupid n00bish stuff like that. Screw the data. In situations like this judgments should be made on what we can see rather than what some datalogging software says.

Yep - and based on what I saw, the penalty was undeserved. He relinquished the place willingly, and even passed Kimi twice on the same lap.

I believe 25 seconds was used, not as a quantifier, but as an indication of what he would have lost had he been given a drive-through, which is the usual penalty for cutting a chicane.

[1zorro]

It's amazing that is what was written on the official Formula One website:



Just because Max Mosley may have castration fantasies, it's unfortunate that his band of blind mice stewards feel the need to do the same to F1. Good hard racing is disallowed in the current F1 Powder Puff. Paint the cars pink, hire Danica Patrick and make sure no one gets within 50 feet of another car.
YOU, ARE A POWDER PUFF. SWALLOW YOUR DISAPIONTMENT AND ACCEPT THE DECISION. IF THE DECISION WAS WRONG, BELIEVE ME, THAT MCLAREN WILL LAUNCH A PROTEST, AND EVERY ONE WILL LOOK AT THAT DECISION VERY CLOSELY. IF THEY RE-TRACT IT, THEN YOU CAN SCREAM BLOODY MURDER...

[Tonieke]

You do realise that you have to go through corners and be on the racing line in the corners to be fast don't you? :)

yep I do realise that..so in this case Lewis was on the racing line goin into the corner..kimi..was off the racing line..but came back on with lewis next to him..giving Lewis no other choise than to either cut the corner or hit Kimi's car...right ?

[Daniel]

YOU, ARE A POWDER PUFF.

Them's fightin' words :rotflmao:

[markabilly]

Watching the videos, I do not see an advantage, given afterwards that Kimi ended up way in front when Hamilton left the road again, only for Kimi to spin.

I do think the backmarkers were far more of a problem of getting in Kimi's way and causing or contributing to the last two spins or offroad excursions of kimi.

Nevertheless, there is hamster bragging (once AGAIN) about how he has superior driving ability that caused him to win, when if kimi had not had the spin after getting back in front (contributed to by a car that was about to get lapped) then hamilton would be excusing his bad luck in going off-roading and falling way behind.

But again, if the road were dry that would be one thing, but this was NOT the case. FIA should not be sticking their nose into it.

Botttom line it was all more luck and blind hope that the tires hold. Period.

[Jag_Warrior]

YOU, ARE A POWDER PUFF. SWALLOW YOUR DISAPIONTMENT AND ACCEPT THE DECISION. IF THE DECISION WAS WRONG, BELIEVE ME, THAT MCLAREN WILL LAUNCH A PROTEST, AND EVERY ONE WILL LOOK AT THAT DECISION VERY CLOSELY. IF THEY RE-TRACT IT, THEN YOU CAN SCREAM BLOODY MURDER...

Speak up! I couldn't hear you.

When you get these keys figured out, then you can get back to me. OK, genius?

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/technology/uploaded_images/capslock-717174.jpg

[RalfsLastFan]

I would dearly, dearly love to see McLaren just walk away after this. It's getting ridiculous now.

He passed off the track. OK. He gave the position back. OK. What more do they want? Is there a mandated distance back he has to go? Does he have to apologize to Kimi with flowers and nice chocolates? Perhaps penitentally follow him around like a lapdog?

Vile.

[Jag_Warrior]

Watching the videos, I do not see an advantage, given afterwards that Kimi ended up way in front when Hamilton left the road again, only for Kimi to spin.

I do think the backmarkers were far more of a problem of getting in Kimi's way and causing or contributing to the last two spins or offroad excursions of kimi.

But again, if the road were dry that would be one thing, but this was NOT the case. FIA should not be sticking their nose into it.

Exactly! It was good hard racing until some old guys in suits felt the need to play with the results.

For goodness sake, let them race! It's things like this that make me miss the old CART series. None of this limp wristed silliness back then. Too bad that got flushed.

[markabilly]

This really is a joke, but that is the tradition of the FIA.

I doubt that this decision will stand in a world of fair appeals, but this is the FIA, you know the one that got no problem with a certain prez, can not measure temperature outside properly, and on and on......so since logic would dictate the opinion does not stand, safe money would be on it does.

[Aikidoka]

It is such a shame that after a thrilling race, we have to nit-pick over the finest details such as 'did he gain an advantage?', 'but that was negated as he ran off the road', 'we can prove he was 6kph slower over the line' and so on. It really turns our sport into a farce.

This has done nothing but harm F1 in the eyes of its fans (but since when did Bernie or Max care about the fans - as long as the corporate sponsors are happy...)

[yodasarmpit]

For the first time in years I didn't see all of the race, but the fact that ioan doesn't think it's a fair punishment says it all to me :D

[MrJan]

Yep - and based on what I saw, the penalty was undeserved. He relinquished the place willingly, and even passed Kimi twice on the same lap.

I believe 25 seconds was used, not as a quantifier, but as an indication of what he would have lost had he been given a drive-through, which is the usual penalty for cutting a chicane.

Is there a limit for how long the stewards have to issue a penalty? Similar to how a driver has 3 laps to serve a penalty.

From one of the links posted earlier there is also a suggestion that McLaren checked it with Charlie Whiting as to it's legitimacy which makes the penalty even more harsh, especially as it was issued retrospectively. It's also likely that Lewis would have slowed in the last couple of laps whereas if he'd had say 2 laps after a drive through he might have been able to make up a bit of time. Not saying that e would have done, nor could close the gap, just that the way the penalty was issued was sneaky and underhanded.

[Daniel]

What makes you assume that in those conditions Raikkonen would have been able to accelerate out of the corner quickly and not have Hamilton over the back of him, given that he was so much slower in the wet anyway (the chicane looked considerably wetter than Le Fagnia (sp?) were he spun). Pure speculation given how those last 3 laps went anyway.
What makes you think Lewis wouldn't have turned into a goat if he had gone around the track properly and had to retire due to not having an opposable thumb on each finger to grip the wheel with? Lets talk about what happened after he went off. Not what we thought would have happened.

[GridGirl]

I'm pretty sure the stewards have 25 laps to impose a penalty but when an incident occurs only 2 laps from the end any question asking about how long a steward has to impose a penalty is surely irrelevant.

[truefan72]

So completely corrupt.

Hamilton cut through the bus stop chikane to avoid colliding with Raikkonen. Hamilton's front wheels where clearly in front of Raikkonen's rear wheels, so Raikkonen forcing Hamilton off the track was an illegal move.

On top of that Hamilton lets Raikkonen pass him down the straight. Raikkonen does a zig-zag manoeuvre and loses speed and Hamilton overtakes him again.



and to make matters worse, LH lost the lead to Kimi further into the lap, which would then have nullified ANY advantage perceived to have been gained by the incident, Kimi then went ahead and spun, allowing LH to take the lead and then he spun out later. So you mean that LH gained an unfair advantage?

and the fact that Kimi retook the lead later did not mean anything?
Even though they both had to take evasive action because of rosberg?(which probably was a yellow flag situation and this kimi passed LH under a yellow, or at the very least gained an unfair advantage due)

I am shocked, completely shocked, and deeply saddened for LH, McLaren and all F1 fans the world over. The fallout from these actions are just beginning. I am sure sponsors aren't happy about this,the other teams won't be happy about this, and if Ferrari had any self respect and sportsmanship in them they would show up at the appeal and state that LH did not gain any advantage.

I am actually sick from this decision. I can't even type anymore!

[pentti]

I agree what Daniel has written 100%.I would just like to add that Kimi was quite glumshi protecting the line in the next corner.I also believe that in those conditions it would not have taking long Lewis to over take correctly.
Lewis has been the best driver this year so he deservs to win the Championship unless he starts to make mistakes as last year.

[Daniel]

When I saw that taking place I kinda wondered about whether there would be trouble over this . Indeed , there is .

Lewis went off-track and , although he let Kimi back into the lead , he was granted the perfect entry into Kimi's slipstream with the move .
Had he lft any attempt until after the next corner , he would not have been changed with this .

The "concertina" effect , with Kimi ahead into the corner , would have allowed a greater distance between before La Source .
He could have gotten him up the hill .
It wasn't just for Kimi that second wasn't good enough .

Exactly.

[TMorel]

kimi passed LH under a yellow, or at the very least gained an unfair advantage
Didn't Lewis himself say he was going off when he came up against Nico, so Kimi can't really be classed as over taking?
Still think the whole thing is unfair :(

Also, can McLaren actually appeal a drivethru? Even a post race one?
Am seeing mixed opinions on this.

[Tonieke]

When I saw that taking place I kinda wondered about whether there would be trouble over this . Indeed , there is .

Lewis went off-track and , although he let Kimi back into the lead , he was granted the perfect entry into Kimi's slipstream with the move .
Had he lft any attempt until after the next corner , he would not have been changed with this .

The "concertina" effect , with Kimi ahead into the corner , would have allowed a greater distance between before La Source .
He could have gotten him up the hill .
It wasn't just for Kimi that second wasn't good enough .

correction..Lewis didn't pass Kimi because of the slipstream (proof..he was even 6 kmh slower on the finishline) but due to later breaking..big difference there !

[71minus2]

FIA

Ferrari Is Amazing

What a f****g joke. F1 is no longer a sport. Bunch of c***s

[TMorel]

71minus,

Well, with this and the goings on in rallying, I think it should be renamed from motorsport to motorsoap *g*

[Allyc85]

ing disgraceful decision by the FIA, now try and convince me they dont favour Ferrari. I hate this sport sometimes.

[Easy Drifter]

Well we all know the Stewards' theme song---- 'Three blind mice'.
I just wonder how much actual racing experience they have, if any at all.
I have noticed people who have raced quite often have a different view of incidents than those who have not. In this case it seems pretty well everybody (but not all) are of the opinion there should be no penalty. I concur. As most of you who have read my other posts know I did race professionaly. I know Markabilly did too.
Many years ago the chief Steward in Ont. said he did not want former drivers as Stewards as they might be biased towards the drivers!
I am just afraid on the appeal that Lewis will be disqualified totally.

[COD]

Right decision. Seeing it live on TV, I allready said that Lewis could have taken the corner normally, but in an attempt to gain advantage, he cut the chicane. That allowed him so much closer than he would have been, had he taken the chicane normally as he should have. That brat thinks he can get away with anything, thank god the stewards keep him under control.

[71minus2]

71minus,

Well, with this and the goings on in rallying, I think it should be renamed from motorsport to motorsoap *g*


F1 is now WWE in wheels. I'll be watching IRL and NASCAR in 2009, f*** F1.

[Allyc85]

he cut the corner because Kimi was pushing him wide, its obvious!

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

not that its going to make much difference but theres now an onile petition.. http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

[Mickey T]

I actually agree that Lewis did something wrong and that he gained advantage even if he did give the place back but the penalty is absolutely undeserved.

Lewis gave the place back but jumped straight into Kimi's slipstream thereby giving him an advantage compared to where he was before he went off. ...

so, alongside raikkonen and on the inside for the next corner is somehow a worse position than having to lift off the throttle to let him by on the straight?

i'm not a hamilton fan but, in this case, i don't regard that he did anything wrong.

he raced hard and fair, he carried more speed into the bus stop chicane, went around the outside and still had significant overlap at the corner exit.

it was kimi who broke the driver-on-driver rule (ask anybody who has raced open wheelers) that you always leave a piece of road for the guy on the outside. he was desperate to retain his lead and just drove hamilton off the road. he was left with no crash-free alternative but to go where he did.

besides, where was kimi's penalty for forcing another driver off the road?
where was rosberg's penalty for almost causing a collision with both hamilton and raikkonen?
where was kimi's penalty for passing hamilton under the yellow flags where rosberg was?

either way, what hamilton did had no effect on the outcome of the race.

What weaving are some people talking about? the weaving when he passed kimi? if so, he's behind on a straight and can do what he wants. it's only the leader who has the one-move rule.

i didn't see a lot of other weaving from him.

slipstream? if you look at the video, he'd be in kimi's slipstream for less than half a second over the entire length of the straight. no advantage, he didn't use the slipstream.

i can see that the stewards made a blue here (dennis asked charlie whiting at the time whether lewis had done the right thing and whiting replied that he had).

I can see a lot of ferrari opinion and conspiracy theory.

for the sake of this sport, i hope it was just incompetence from the stewards - especially after the convenience of judging massa's penalty last race when they knew just how much to give him so he would still win.

i hope it's incompetence and i hope it's rectified on appeal.

[jens]

We are debating here whether Hamilton's pass was legal or not, but those moments were totally Kimi's faults, because he was braking soo early into the corners. What was Hamilton supposed to do? Take alongside him and pass if he was given an opportunity so easily. Lewis is the victim of Kimi's extremely cautious driving. :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Exactly.
Which ignores the fact that Lewis was 6km/h slower than Kimi as they crossed the start/finish line. What is seen as the slipstream was simply Lewis being Lewis on the brakes i.e. better & later than anyone else.

[Langdale Forest]

Lewis was the best driver in the race and the decision by the FIA is an abousolute joke.

[gloomyDAY]

Right decision. Seeing it live on TV, I allready said that Lewis could have taken the corner normally, but in an attempt to gain advantage, he cut the chicane. That allowed him so much closer than he would have been, had he taken the chicane normally as he should have. That brat thinks he can get away with anything, thank god the stewards keep him under control.I think you're 100% correct. Screw those stupid punks who decide to race rather than play grab ass up and down the circuit. You and I think alike in the sense that if someone wins on merit, then they should be punished.

/sarcasm

[PSfan]

McLaren's view:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70404


:up:


Well good luck to MacLeran on that... Though the most damning part of it was the fact Ron Dennis wasn't sure that just giving back the position to Kimi was enough at the time so he asked Charlie... and how MacLeran decided to risk 2nd place and probably 1st place points over a "probably" is beyond me...

To stay on the track, Lewis would have had to lift off and give Kimi the corner, hence Kimi would have had a much bigger gap to Hamilton afterwards...

If even MacLeran wasn't sure they satisfied the rules at the time, how can anyone be criticle of the stewerts for this decision?!?!

[MrJan]

I'm pretty sure the stewards have 25 laps to impose a penalty but when an incident occurs only 2 laps from the end any question asking about how long a steward has to impose a penalty is surely irrelevant.

Just wanted to find out whether it would be relevant or not, I thought that the incident happend more than 2 laps from the end anyway.

[Mickey T]

the real irony here is that the stewards punished heikki for failing to avoid an avoidable collision, then punished hamilton for actually avoiding an avoidable collision!

and almost in the same place.

[Viktory]

then punished hamilton for actually avoiding an avoidable collision!


that's not what they've punished him for

[Allyc85]

People have been saying Lewis had the momentum by cutting the chicane, but how do you gain momentum by reducing your amount of acceleration lmao

[Allyc85]

And also Lewis was right on Kimis gearbox going into the chicane, and was once he let him past, so how has he gained time there. load of poop I tell you.

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70402

They are fully justified in doing so IMHO :up: It may be risky as there is the possibility the penalty could be increased, but they simply had to appeal.

Why should the penalty be increased? The penalty for this infringement is a drive through or a 25 seconds time penalty if it's too late or a drive through.

[PSfan]

Why should the penalty be increased? The penalty for this infringement is a drive through or a 25 seconds time penalty if it's too late or a drive through.


The FIA have a funny way of taking exception to having their decisions questioned, and ussually add to penalties after a failed appeal...

[71minus2]

all in all its a shame that ferrari had to complain when the recipient of the alleged unfair treatment couldn't hack the pressure, ran wide and stacked his car into the fence!

There is only 1 loser in this crappy affair, and thats the F1 fans who paid shed loads of money to watch the "race" and the millions who wasted their time watching the TV.

Off to wop land next week. Another Ferrari fixed win must be on the cards.

F1 is now officially a joke.

[jonny hurlock]

imo, stewards are wrong with Lewis penalty, he let Kimi pass before the finishing line, overtake before la sources, even Charley Whiting even said it was ok. IF the FIA doesn't overrule the penalty, with ferrari/massa pit lane cock up in Valencia, We think should call Formula 1 new name: Ferrari 1.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

So where is the fine/penalty for the Williams that was slow on the racing line & nearly took out both leaders?

Everytime you think this sport has reached a new low it gets lower.

[Zico]

I've just rewatched the replay on ITV's website and I was wrong, they didnt touch in the chicane, Hamilton just dodged going over what were foot high concrete kerbing, just behind the red and white kerbing, that would have undoubtedly launched his car into Kimi's.

However, at no point down the straight into La Source was Hamilton in Kimi's slipstream, they were close to being side-by-side with Kimi definitely ahead and pulling away because Lewis had to back off to let him past. Hamilton got him under braking fair and square because Kimi was braking so much earlier in the slick conditions. As I said earlier, the only advantage Hamilton had was that he is much better on the brakes at overtacking than most in the field.

Besides I recall seing this kind of thing before, possibly with Schumacher, were a car would cut the chicane and give the place back but in such a way that they can immidiately line up for an overtacking move into the next corner without any penalties being given. Cant remember when or exactly where (possibly Monza) or even exactly who, but I definitely remember seeing it happen before.


Thats the way I see it... however...

To those who say Lewis gained an advantage being forced off the track by being able to be closer to Kimi, despite letting off and giving him back his place, I can also see where they are coming from.

Its actually a pretty difficult decision to rule.. but by being inconsistant with previous decisions the FIA have possibly just proven once again that they have an anti-McLaren agenda.


Previous similar incidents/FIA decisions should set a precedent for decisions like today.. unless of course a new rule has been implemented, which begs the question..

What year did the 'gain an advantage' rule come into place? I'd have though the answer would be 'always'.. ??

[Viktory]

all in all its a shame that ferrari had to complain when the recipient of the alleged unfair treatment couldn't hack the pressure, ran wide and stacked his car into the fence!


Ferrari didn't complain. The stewards asked for their opinion and Ferrari gave it to them.

[Jag_Warrior]

Previous similar incidents/FIA decisions should set a precedent for decisions like today.. unless of course a new rule has been implemented, which begs the question.

The advantage of being inconsistent is there will be a "precedent" no matter which way you rule.

[markabilly]

So where is the fine/penalty for the Williams that was slow on the racing line & nearly took out both leaders?

Everytime you think this sport has reached a new low it gets lower.

yeah if we are going to start dropping penalties, that would be the place to start. If it had just been Kim and ham, who knows whether kimi would have ended up all over the road. Thing is who was that? was it Rosberg or the other...
nevertheless, it was raining.......


Well we all know the Stewards' theme song---- 'Three blind mice'.
I just wonder how much actual racing experience they have, if any at all.
I have noticed people who have raced quite often have a different view of incidents than those who have not. In this case it seems pretty well everybody (but not all) are of the opinion there should be no penalty. I concur. As most of you who have read my other posts know I did race professionaly. I know Markabilly did too.
Many years ago the chief Steward in Ont. said he did not want former drivers as Stewards as they might be biased towards the drivers!
I am just afraid on the appeal that Lewis will be disqualified totally.


I am no fan of LH dues primarily to his big mouth, but this was a rip off. In the wet, one is taking a chance and once the tires aquaplane, the best driver in the world is not going to save it and will slip and slide. Only liuck will permit survival. Hamilton was bragging about his skill afterwards, and i say what a crock on that. View the tapes again and look at all of his off-roading, and you will see right before kimi spun again hamilton was off and nearly stuck on the grass, but got lucky.

How anyone could be any type of former racing driver who has been in the rain and find something to penalize is beyond me. Of course there are ham fans who will always say that he was done wrong because they are his fans, but all the same, NO penalty, and if kimi had come out ahead--even though he was also all over the track---- I would say the same: no penalty.

Fact is despite what I said or implied above, due to the rain, I also say no penalty on the Williams driver either..

Reminds me again of the line from The Natural where Redford asks the news reporter (Duvall) "did you ever play the game??"

Sure is nice to watch this in very slow motion, frame by frame, to figure what the driver should have done, but get real, 99.999% of what we saw was instinctual reaction by all, not carefully thought strategy (so shut Lewis!!!)
and given that kimi got back in front, and far enough ahead of Hamster before he spun (and Hamster was just completing his own off-road trip), it is hard to say there should be any penalty.

[Daniel]

Which ignores the fact that Lewis was 6km/h slower than Kimi as they crossed the start/finish line. What is seen as the slipstream was simply Lewis being Lewis on the brakes i.e. better & later than anyone else.

Listen I don't care how McLaren want to dress it up. He could have been 500kph slower. He went off the track and appeared to make a gain for doing so.

End of story.....

You either have a sport which is 100% show and has very loose regulations or you have a sport which is highly regulated and as such is very fair.

[Zico]

The advantage of being inconsistent is there will be a "precedent" no matter which way you rule.

Unfortunately for the integrity of F1...

[elinagr]

massa is the winner fair! he should be crowded champion soon...
Hamilton cheated again, he should be disqualified also..he is lucky to be 3rd

[Jag_Warrior]

Listen I don't care how McLaren want to dress it up. He could have been 500kph slower. He went off the track and appeared to make a gain for doing so.

End of story.....

You either have a sport which is 100% show and has very loose regulations or you have a sport which is highly regulated and as such is very fair.

And issues penalties based on appearance?

How about a sport where the competitors decide the outcomes and not suits in a room?

[ioan]

And issues penalties based on appearance?

How about a sport where the competitors decide the outcomes and not suits in a room?

Hilarious.

[Jag_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=528376#post528376)
And issues penalties based on appearance?

How about a sport where the competitors decide the outcomes and not suits in a room?



Hilarious.

Explain.

[Tonieke]

Listen I don't care how McLaren want to dress it up. He could have been 500kph slower. He went off the track and appeared to make a gain for doing so.

End of story.....

You either have a sport which is 100% show and has very loose regulations or you have a sport which is highly regulated and as such is very fair.

this sport is becoming more and more of a show...an anti McLaren show...

end of story !

[Tonieke]

who are these marchals anyway ? Do they have any racing experience (as a driver) on a top level at all ?

[Sleeper]

What makes you think Lewis wouldn't have turned into a goat if he had gone around the track properly and had to retire due to not having an opposable thumb on each finger to grip the wheel with? Lets talk about what happened after he went off. Not what we thought would have happened.
Dont be an idiot, you know my post was reffering to the fact that Viktory was making a guess that Kimi would have pulled away like normal comeing out of the corner, but the track was wet so normal goes out the window. Considering how much more grip Lewis seemed to find in the wet it doesnt take much to guess that he could have been along side or at least all over the back of Kimi coming out of Bus Stop. This is all supposition but only goes to prove that we cant take the normal standards of how race cars behave in the dry on a damp track, on slicks no less.

You seem to have done a fair bit of commenting on what might have been yourself.

[MC12]

I must admit this has really annoyed me. As an avid Formula 1 fan this is not what the sport needs right now, I think there is still a lot of bitterness from Spygate in the air and once again the FIA haven't exactly shined here! It's one thing to punish Hamilton (which I don't agree with in the slightest!) but to award the points to someone who wasn't in contention all race is criminal! Me thinks someone in the FIA may have shares in Ferrari!

[Lemmy-Boy]

This is one of the few races on the F1 calendar that generates any real excitement or passing on the track. Too bad the FIA, screwed up the final standings by giving the win to Massa.

Hamilton gave Kimi back the lead and would have passed the Ferrari anyway, since the McLaren was a lot faster in the damp conditions.

Overall, F1 finally puts on an entertaining show for the fans, which is getting rarer these days, only to have the FIA f*ck everyone in the @ss once again.

No wonder why I hardly watch F1 anymore due to the overwhelming amount of Political B.S.

[Sleeper]

What year did the 'gain an advantage' rule come into place? I'd have though the answer would be 'always'.. ??
Sometime in the last decade, it used to be automatic that if you cut the chicane you get a penalty, but the rules are vaguelly worded and one team successfully lobbied that their driver gained no advantage by cutting the chicane becuase there was no he was closely racing.

It used to be illegal to push drivers off track as well, but since Senna the FIA has generally been getting more and more lax on driving standards, which is why the racing in lower formulas especially can be pretty crap.

[wedge]

I'm just wondering how long it will take for Hamilton to copy Senna and Alonso and diss the FIA.

[ICKE]

I dont know if this has already been posted but :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

Here is proof that Hamilton did not slow down one bit after cutting that chicane. Just watch and listen, the evidence is clear.

Besides : The race stewards are able to view the telemetry after the race. It's not exactly hard to see if Hamilton did or did not lift his foot from the gas pedal now is it?

[jens]

I dont know if this has already been posted but :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

Here is proof that Hamilton did not slow down one bit after cutting that chicane. Just watch and listen, the evidence is clear.

Besides : The race stewards are able to view the telemetry after the race. It's not exactly hard to see if Hamilton did or did not lift his foot from the gas pedal now is it?

Like I said before. Kimi was braking so early that Hamilton simply didn't have any other option that to... pass him! Or should he have hit the back of the Ferrari?

After all, Hamilton did enough to let the Ferrari completely ahead of him and this is what counts. If this is not satisfying, then you should demand FIA to change the rules, so that besides letting the other driver through he should also be allowed to build up a 2-second gap...

[ICKE]

No, the rule states that you can not gain an advantage.

And Hamilton would have never been so close to Kimi, had he not cut the chicane.

[MrJan]

massa is the winner fair! he should be crowded champion soon...
Hamilton cheated again, he should be disqualified also..he is lucky to be 3rd

Somehow I knew you'd say that. Your constant abuse and dislike for Hamilton is short sighted and boring. At least some of the blinkered Ferrari fans on here can see that he has a modicum of talent and accept that some of his driving his decent.

Massa is a decent driver but is not on the same level as Hamilton, Kimi, Alonso or Kubica, blokes who really know how to handle a car. If Massa wins a WDC it'll be like when Nicky Hayden won in MotoGP and hardly anyone actually thought he was the best rider in the field.

[Zico]

I dont know if this has already been posted but :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

Here is proof that Hamilton did not slow down one bit after cutting that chicane. Just watch and listen, the evidence is clear.

Besides : The race stewards are able to view the telemetry after the race. It's not exactly hard to see if Hamilton did or did not lift his foot from the gas pedal now is it?


McLaren maintain that telemetry showed Lewis lifting off

The McLaren spokesman said: "We looked at all our data, and also made it available to the FIA stewards.

"It showed that, having lifted [off the accelerator], Lewis was 6kph slower than Kimi as they crossed the start-finish line.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7603179.stm


Re- The onboard video, on the contrary... sounds like a brief lift at 14 secs to me.

[anthonyvop]

Ia anyone really honestly surprised by this.

It's McLaren gawd darnit. I mean, the FIA would fine the team for Lewis leaving skids on in the toilet bowl.

You realize you are talking about a team that commited the single greatest crime in F-1 History buy accepting and using stolen information?

Hamilton shouldn't have been stripped of the win because the McLaren shouldn't have been allowed to compete.

[Ranger]

You realize you are talking about a team that commited the single greatest crime in F-1 History buy accepting and using stolen information?

Hamilton shouldn't have been stripped of the win because the McLaren shouldn't have been allowed to compete.

Likewise, do you realise that you're saying two wrongs make a right?

I'm no McLaren fan, but independent of any past incidents it was a pretty dodgy decision.

[gloomyDAY]

You realize you are talking about a team that commited the single greatest crime in F-1 History buy accepting and using stolen information?

Hamilton shouldn't have been stripped of the win because the McLaren shouldn't have been allowed to compete.The only crime here and today is the fact that the winner of Spa is now appealing to claim what is rightfully his. You can go ahead and accuse McLaren of whatever you want. Mostly everyone here is a realist and knows that Stepneygate is in the past, therefore, has absolutely zero integrity when spoken over today's incident.

You do have a point. McLaren should go along with other manufacturer's and create a break-away series. Someone else stated earlier that F1 can exist with Ferrari and the FIA all by themselves.

[ICKE]

The only crime here and today is the fact that the winner of Spa is now appealing to claim what is rightfully his.I can agree with that. It's two points now and in Monza he should be able to claim that first position in the championship. ;)

[gloomyDAY]

When will the FIA make a decision over McLaren's appeal?

[Zico]

I can agree with that. It's two points now and in Monza he should be able to claim that first position in the championship. ;)

He's already leading the championship, unless you were talking about Massa.. who isnt appealing btw.. ;)

You ignored my previous post.. doesnt that sound like a lift at 14 secs to you?

[PSfan]

Likewise, do you realise that you're saying two wrongs make a right?


I hope you have had a chance to re-read Anthonyvops post and realise that it is not remotely close to what he was saying...

Simple translation... Had FIA didn't made a mistake last year by [not]banning[/u] MacLeran, The would be no Hamilton on track to make a 2nd wrong...

I'm inclined to believe there is some relation to Hamilton's 25sec panalty and stepnygate... I think had it been any other team, they would have gotten the benefit of the doubt... MacLeran thanks to last year appears to have lost that priviledge and rightly so...

[HenryM]

I dont know if this has already been posted but :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

Here is proof that Hamilton did not slow down one bit after cutting that chicane. Just watch and listen, the evidence is clear.

Besides : The race stewards are able to view the telemetry after the race. It's not exactly hard to see if Hamilton did or did not lift his foot from the gas pedal now is it?

I'm still not a 100% convinced, but this video make me belive a bit that the punishment was not that wrong,

[Rollo]

I dont know if this has already been posted but :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

Here is proof that Hamilton did not slow down one bit after cutting that chicane. Just watch and listen, the evidence is clear.

Besides : The race stewards are able to view the telemetry after the race. It's not exactly hard to see if Hamilton did or did not lift his foot from the gas pedal now is it?

And here are two frames from said video:
Before the Bus Stop -
http://www.geocities.com/rollo75/busstop.jpg

And going into La Source -
http://www.geocities.com/rollo75/lasource.jpg

In both cases Raikkonen is ahead of Hamilton... now where's the advantage? I would have thought that if you were behind someone then the advantage rests with them.

How far should Hamilton have stayed behind? 3 seconds? 5 minutes? Since people are very quick to decide these things perhaps they could enlighten me as to how the Scarlett Ferrari is in front of the Silver Ferrari in this photo if Hamilton gained an advantage by being behind him... hmm.

[Whyzars]

It was wonderful watching the cars at Spa after the blandness of Valencia and then the brainiacs go and do this.

I want a handful of whatever mind altering party substances must be taken prior to arriving at such a patently stupid decision.

[Craig Lowndes]

Utterly and totally moronic and unjustified decision from the FIA there. The penalty is supposedly being applied because Hamilton "gained an advantage". Hamilton let Raikkonen past again after cutting the chicane as he should have and then passed him again fair end square. In that move, if anything it was Raikkonen that was out of order as he ran into Hamilton on the exit.

If the FIA rationalize that this supposed advantage is that cutting the chicane got Hamilton any closer to Raikkonen than he was, that is flawed as well as Hamilton was already all over him before they got to that chicane.

For these reasons, this decision to penalise Hamilton is idiotic, illogical and unwarranted and suggests the FIA want to rig the championship so that it goes Ferrari's way.

[CNR]

it may even be the way he was hitting kimi's car before he crashed out.
good to see massa in the wet this time who knows

? 25 seconds (equivalent to a drive through penalty)
i think they should decide this track by track

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm inclined to believe there is some relation to Hamilton's 25sec panalty and stepnygate... I think had it been any other team, they would have gotten the benefit of the doubt... MacLeran thanks to last year appears to have lost that priviledge and rightly so...

So basically, with the FIA, justice is not blind? With the FIA, there are different rules for different people and different teams? Basically the FIA is nothing more than a clan of favorites players?

You're saying that the one sport that I have religiously followed for most of my time on this planet is nothing more than a rigged scam? Well, thanks a lot. Why not just tell me that Santa is some old perv in a red suit?

Eh, don't worry about it. I had my doubts about Santa anyway. But what's sad is that you don't seem to see anything wrong with the premise that the FIA is nothing more than a gang of small time thugs that take revenge based on the past. Interesting. Sad, but interesting.

[CNR]

Utterly and totally moronic and unjustified decision from the FIA there. The penalty is supposedly being applied because Hamilton "gained an advantage". Hamilton let Raikkonen past again after cutting the chicane as he should have and then passed him again fair end square. In that move, if anything it was Raikkonen that was out of order as he ran into Hamilton on the exit.

If the FIA rationalize that this supposed advantage is that cutting the chicane got Hamilton any closer to Raikkonen than he was, that is flawed as well as Hamilton was already all over him before they got to that chicane.

For these reasons, this decision to penalise Hamilton is idiotic, illogical and unwarranted and suggests the FIA want to rig the championship so that it goes Ferrari's way.

did lewis let kimi pass or did kimi have the speed to pass him?
i guess they would have looked at the speed lewis was doing when kimi pased him

it may all so have to do with how far he was behind kimi before he cut the chicane and how far ahead kimi was
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/07/article-0-028F5AAC00000578-837_468x286.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1053333/Hamilton-carve--conspiracy-theories-rife-McLaren-win-overturned.html

[call_me_andrew]

If you can't see this as blatant pro-Ferrari bias by the FIA, then you must be so blind that Jesus couldn't cure you.

[mstillhere]

And here are two frames from said video:
Before the Bus Stop -
http://www.geocities.com/rollo75/busstop.jpg

And going into La Source -
http://www.geocities.com/rollo75/lasource.jpg

In both cases Raikkonen is ahead of Hamilton... now where's the advantage? I would have thought that if you were behind someone then the advantage rests with them.

How far should Hamilton have stayed behind? 3 seconds? 5 minutes? Since people are very quick to decide these things perhaps they could enlighten me as to how the Scarlett Ferrari is in front of the Silver Ferrari in this photo if Hamilton gained an advantage by being behind him... hmm.


According to what I read on some other web sites (not the actual FIA official web site), the rule states that LH should have waited at least to the next curve before trying to pass. In this case, as you can see on the pictures, he took advantage of the drag force originating from Kimi's car giving him an unfair advantage.I am not aware about what the rules precisely say but, IMO, if the judges (plural) decided to penalize LH the evidence against him must be pretty strong.

[Jag_Warrior]

Hamilton shouldn't have been stripped of the win because the McLaren shouldn't have been allowed to compete.

So ban McLaren from the sport?

Knowing you to be a man of logic, you were in favor of Michael Schumacher being banned after his 1997 exclusion?

[PSfan]

And here are two frames from said video:
Before the Bus Stop -
http://www.geocities.com/rollo75/busstop.jpg

And going into La Source -
http://www.geocities.com/rollo75/lasource.jpg

In both cases Raikkonen is ahead of Hamilton... now where's the advantage? I would have thought that if you were behind someone then the advantage rests with them.

How far should Hamilton have stayed behind? 3 seconds? 5 minutes? Since people are very quick to decide these things perhaps they could enlighten me as to how the Scarlett Ferrari is in front of the Silver Ferrari in this photo if Hamilton gained an advantage by being behind him... hmm.

Good choice of screen caps... How long was Hamilton behind Kimi?

I just watched that youtube vid a few times, and a replay of the incident on wind tunnel (recorded it this time) and now I'm scratching my head? How can anyone suggest that penalty wasn't deserved?!? Sure Hamilton got behind Kimi, but that was clearly to position himself on the inside for the next corner, not because on the short cut he took seconds before, I would describe the 2 cars exit of the cut chicane as a drag race. Thats why Hams got a penalty, thats why an appeal would fail, there is no clear intent on hamiltons part to concede the position, re watch the vids, its pretty clear. And while maybe there was intent to let him by, it doesn't show...

[mstillhere]

Where does the 25 sec penalty come from? Who dreamt the penalty up? Why not a fine? Questions, questions?

The 25 seconds come from the drive through penalty that's applied for such incidents. Since there was not enough time to actually do that, then the 25 sec. were applied as a penalty instead. That's s why.

[N. Jones]

Watching the race again it does look like Lewis was so close to Kimi that he had to short-cut the chicane. BUT, why the stewards made their decision is anyone's guess.

Remember what I always say - the Race Stewards are inconsistent and will stay inconsistent until someone more powerful than the fans speaks out against them.

[PSfan]

So basically, with the FIA, justice is not blind? With the FIA, there are different rules for different people and different teams? Basically the FIA is nothing more than a clan of favorites players?

Well not exactly, MacLeran/Ron Dennis just doesn't have the credibilty they once had. So when Ron says that Hamilton dropped off the throttle to let Kimi get ahead because of the cut chicane, and the video suggests maybe he let off to get to the inside of the track for the next corner... after the lying last year its hard to believe...

But a team can clean up that image MacLeran has developed last year, Honda isn't being criticised as much over their funky gas tanks, and less then honest aproach when they where questioned about it... So maybe if MacLeran can learn to keep their noses clean, then and not get into scenario's where people can question their honesty then eventually they might be trusted again too...


You're saying that the one sport that I have religiously followed for most of my time on this planet is nothing more than a rigged scam? Well, thanks a lot. Why not just tell me that Santa is some old perv in a red suit?

Um, I know he hasn't posted in a while (since BMW fully took over Sauber?) but I'm sure he's not a perv in a red suit...


Eh, don't worry about it. I had my doubts about Santa anyway. But what's sad is that you don't seem to see anything wrong with the premise that the FIA is nothing more than a gang of small time thugs that take revenge based on the past. Interesting. Sad, but interesting.

I find it interesting after all the lies coming from Ron Dennis/MacLeran last year, that we can take the "Hamilton slowed down to let Kimi ahead" statement at face value...

Fact they dragged raced after the chicane, and Hamilton conceded the position to be on the inside for the next corner is how it appears on replays.

[Valve Bounce]

Not having watched the race, nor the incident (since I had to go shopping), I will wait until the final definitive assessment from ioan before accepting what the correct decision should have been.

[mstillhere]

It's interesting to see how everyone is blasting everything and everyone around here but yet we dont know what the regulations say in this regard, That should be our first step. Once we read it then we can start insulting each other. Without that knowledge though, everything else seems to be just an hysterical mayhem.

[Whyzars]

I am not aware about what the rules precisely say but, IMO, if the judges (plural) decided to penalize LH the evidence against him must be pretty strong.

For me its not about whether the driver is in the right or the wrong, I believe that the stewards are wrong to change a race result. Does this mean that if Lewis had spun into a wall he would incur no penalty for the alleged indiscretion?

If the stewards had made a prompt decision and issued a drive through penalty DURING THE RACE then the merits of that decision could be argued. To allow the trophies to be presented, and the winning driver to crack the champagne, is unforgivable in my opinion. We must always remember that this is a sport and that a young driver has had a race win taken off him. In my opinion if a penalty decision is reached after the presentation of the trophies then apply the penalty to the next race.

What about the punters who backed Massa and tore up their tickets? There are very large sums of money being wagered on F1 and the racing stewardship, and conduct of F1 events, must be seen to be consistent and predictable and beyond reproach.

I think they announced during the race that the KR and LH incident was being investigated - how long does it take to make a decision???

If they delayed the trophy presentation then so be it but under no circumstance should a race result be changed once the world has been given the impression that the result has been finalised..

I'm a Ferrari fan and believe that this decision is a bad one on many levels but that's just my opinion of course.

:)

[aryan]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

I don't believe that the Stewards are on Ferrari payroll.

I will have to respectfully disagree with FIA on this though. The incident was clear. Hamilton gave the position back and by the next corner, Hamilton was back where he was before the incident, in Kimi's slipstream.

If anything, FIA should have put a hefty fine on Hamilton for the incident and be done with it, like they did with Ferrari in Valencia.

Stealing a win from the race winner in such a fashion is totally unwaranted. If anything, it really puts big question marks over FIA's credibility.

McLaren might win the appeal yet.

[Jag_Warrior]

I find it interesting after all the lies coming from Ron Dennis/MacLeran last year, that we can take the "Hamilton slowed down to let Kimi ahead" statement at face value...

I'm not basing anything on Lewis slowing down. Quite simply, on my TV, the red car went back around the silver car. I'm not aware of any rule which states that the silver car had to allow the red car to remain in front for a specified period of time. If someone can show me that rule, I'd love to see it.


Fact they dragged raced after the chicane, and Hamilton conceded the position to be on the inside for the next corner is how it appears on replays.

No, if Kimi had kept his line he would have remained on the inside to the next turn. I like Kimi. But his juking & jiving as they progressed down the straight didn't exactly make him faster or give him the preferred line. Watching it in slow motion, Kimi moved (driver) left to block, then right then left again. His last move to the left put him on the outer radius of the turn and that's what opened the door for Hamilton.

My position is and will continue to be, races should be decided on the race track. I can't stand Massa and I hoped that his Valencia result would NOT be spoiled by a penalty because of his pitlane incident. But apparently some here hope and pray for a political result if the race doesn't yield the desired racing result.

[PSfan]

For me its not about whether the driver is in the right or the wrong, I believe that the stewards are wrong to change a race result. Does this mean that if Lewis had spun into a wall he would incur no penalty for the alleged indiscretion?

If the stewards had made a prompt decision and issued a drive through penalty DURING THE RACE then the merits of that decision could be argued. To allow the trophies to be presented, and the winning driver to crack the champagne, is unforgivable in my opinion. We must always remember that this is a sport and that a young driver has had a race win taken off him. In my opinion if a penalty decision is reached after the presentation of the trophies then apply the penalty to the next race.

What about the punters who backed Massa and tore up their tickets? There are very large sums of money being wagered on F1 and the racing stewardship, and conduct of F1 events, must be seen to be consistent and predictable and beyond reproach.

I think they announced during the race that the KR and LH incident was being investigated - how long does it take to make a decision???

If they delayed the trophy presentation then so be it but under no circumstance should a race result be changed once the world has been given the impression that the result has been finalised..

I'm a Ferrari fan and believe that this decision is a bad one on many levels but that's just my opinion of course.

:)

Well, I hate to say this, but in order to make sure the champagne and trophies don't end up in the wrong hands at the end of a race, then they would almost have to postpone the celebrations 3 hours every race to make sure the cars adhere to the rules after every race before declaring winners.

Look at the bright side, how often does a result change after the podium celebration? when was the last time (Prior to this weekends race) that it happened? I prefer this to Nascars taking a way points and fining drivers/teams/crewchiefs for cars that won a race that was way outside the rules.

Originally I thought it didn't make sense to strip a driver of a win on what was arguably a close call, but the more I look at the replays, the less close it looks to me...

[Rollo]

The official transcripts on the FIA site say thus:
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressinformation/f1pressinfo/belgium/Pages/conf4.aspx


I left him enough room, yet he accelerated or picked up more pace going into the corner, and drove me as wide as he possibly could. I had no road left. There was a question I had to ask: if I stay where I am, I'm going to go over the Astroturf… there's some green bit behind the big kerb, the last kerb… and go over it and hit him. Or I go left. That was the option I had to do, I did it. I knew that I had to let him past and also the team came over the radio and said 'you have to let him past' which I did. I was accelerating so that I didn't lose too much ground because I thought that would be unfair.

This is motor racing and if there's a penalty, then there's something wrong because I was ahead going into that corner, so I didn't gain an advantage from it. We were still able to race at the next corner and I gave him his spot back, and I think it was fair and square, so I think it would be absolutely wrong. But you know what they're like, so we will see.
-Lewis Hamilton

He claims he was told to slow down and let Raikkonen through, but then again as the protagonist you'd expect a) him to say that and b) everyone else to expect him to say that.

[Valve Bounce]

The official transcripts on the FIA site say thus:
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressinformation/f1pressinfo/belgium/Pages/conf4.aspx


-Lewis Hamilton

He claims he was told to slow down and let Raikkonen through, but then again as the protagonist you'd expect a) him to say that and b) everyone else to expect him to say that.

Fair enough. McLaren are appealing the case, and it will be heard by officials other than the original race stewards, and they will provide telemetry and communication records.

The telemetry will show whether he did slow down and by how much to let Kimi re-pass.

[Shifter]

Well, I will offer here my well-educated analysis, and I'll try to keep it brief

The incident in question began as Hamilton was in Kimi's slipstream, and dived out of it to make a pass entering the bus stop chicane.

Note here that Lewis is attempting an outside pass. Think back to successful outside passes, they are generally accomplished by arriving at the apex of the turn well ahead of the car being passed. In this case, Hamilton was actually behind Raikkonen at the apex point. No good F1 driver, certainly not a WDC, will care at this point how much road he leaves for the driver who is attempting the overtake, because he clearly beat the driver and owns the corner.

Now, it's up to the overtaking driver, in this case Hamilton, to recognize that most any driver is going to use up all of the exit.

Had Hamilton conceded defeat in the overtake, he would have had to closely follow Raikkonen through the left-hand exit of the chicane. Hamilton could not have been on the throttle as quickly as Raikkonen because he would have had to wait to hit the throttle on corner exit until Raikkonen's car began to accellerate. Most F1 overtakes are the clear result of a driver with a certain gap taking a corner at a higher rate of speed and carrying more onto the next straight. If the gap is zero (as it was with Lewis still alongside), the concertina effect occurs and there is no speed advantage relative to distance.

So here, Hamilton cuts the chicane, thus eliminating the effect of following Raikkonen through the corner and having to accelerate at the same point on the corner exit, which would have had a distancing effect between the two cars.

Now they are both on the pit straight. In my opinion, Hamilton, having entered the track at a point ahead of Raikkonen, was problably accelerating as hard as possible on the dirty and damp part of the track, allowing Raikkonen the good lauch and he to accelerate past Hamilton.

However, at this point the McLaren was much closer to the Ferrari than would have been possible if Hamilton had made the previous corner.

So, net gain goes to Hamilton, allowing him to be close enough to dive down the inside of Raikkonen into La Source.

Fernando Alonso did the exact same thing in Suzuka a few years back, and he was subsequently told to slow down on track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lteu8yVzIOQ Watch at 1:20 - 2:00.

[wmcot]

all in all its a shame that ferrari had to complain when the recipient of the alleged unfair treatment couldn't hack the pressure, ran wide and stacked his car into the fence!

There is only 1 loser in this crappy affair, and thats the F1 fans who paid shed loads of money to watch the "race" and the millions who wasted their time watching the TV.

Off to wop land next week. Another Ferrari fixed win must be on the cards.

F1 is now officially a joke.

"WOP LAND??" That's pretty immature and could be considered blatantly rude and bigoted. Just goes to show some people's intelligence and inability to get their point across without name calling.

[aryan]

For the first time in years I didn't see all of the race, but the fact that ioan doesn't think it's a fair punishment says it all to me :D

Yep, same here :D

I couodn't watch the race live either, and after watching the incident on Youtube and reading about the news, I thought "I wonder what ioan thinks".

The opening page was a bliss. Ioan and F1boat saying that they thought the penalty was not justified said it all! :)

[wmcot]

Well, I will offer here my well-educated analysis, and I'll try to keep it brief

The incident in question began as Hamilton was in Kimi's slipstream, and dived out of it to make a pass entering the bus stop chicane.

Note here that Lewis is attempting an outside pass. Think back to successful outside passes, they are generally accomplished by arriving at the apex of the turn well ahead of the car being passed. In this case, Hamilton was actually behind Raikkonen at the apex point. No good F1 driver, certainly not a WDC, will care at this point how much road he leaves for the driver who is attempting the overtake, because he clearly beat the driver and owns the corner.

Now, it's up to the overtaking driver, in this case Hamilton, to recognize that most any driver is going to use up all of the exit.

Had Hamilton conceded defeat in the overtake, he would have had to closely follow Raikkonen through the left-hand exit of the chicane. Hamilton could not have been on the throttle as quickly as Raikkonen because he would have had to wait to hit the throttle on corner exit until Raikkonen's car began to accellerate. Most F1 overtakes are the clear result of a driver with a certain gap taking a corner at a higher rate of speed and carrying more onto the next straight. If the gap is zero (as it was with Lewis still alongside), the concertina effect occurs and there is no speed advantage relative to distance.

So here, Hamilton cuts the chicane, thus eliminating the effect of following Raikkonen through the corner and having to accelerate at the same point on the corner exit, which would have had a distancing effect between the two cars.

Now they are both on the pit straight. In my opinion, Hamilton, having entered the track at a point ahead of Raikkonen, was problably accelerating as hard as possible on the dirty and damp part of the track, allowing Raikkonen the good lauch and he to accelerate past Hamilton.

However, at this point the McLaren was much closer to the Ferrari than would have been possible if Hamilton had made the previous corner.

So, net gain goes to Hamilton, allowing him to be close enough to dive down the inside of Raikkonen into La Source.

Fernando Alonso did the exact same thing in Suzuka a few years back, and he was subsequently told to slow down on track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lteu8yVzIOQ Watch at 1:20 - 2:00.

Wow, someone who makes a sensible point without name calling! You, sir, are a rarity on this forum!

That must be what the stewards were thinking, but I will wait until the outcome of the appeal to see what the actual decision is. Either way is fine with me - it was an exciting and memorable race which may end up being an infamous race...

[aryan]

i hope it's incompetence and i hope it's rectified on appeal.



Wise words from a wise man. I hope you are right, or this sport will turn many fans away.

[555-04Q2]

As a Ferrari and Massa fan, I feel terrible at the decision. Hammy won fair and square. Hope the decision is overturned.

[pino]

Poll added :)

[Storm]

Damn....the race I wanted to see but could not...was helping my mom-in-law to move into her new home and so there was no cable/dish setup.

Went out and got a DTH service in the evening but it will get installed today!
Should have stayed at home ....my wife would have killed me though if I had been watching the GP instead of helping out :p :

Need to find when the replay is on Star Sports....

[ioan]

[quote="Jag_Warrior":2pnx13r4]
How about a sport where the competitors decide the outcomes and not suits in a room?


Hilarious.

Explain.[/quote:2pnx13r4]

Did you ever see a sport where the people involved are also the judge?
It will always boil down to subjective positions towards the one incriminated. Not to mention that they hardly know the rules, and the drivers wouldn't want to learn them either.

In order to have an objective result for any incident you will need to have judges that aren't involved in the competition or business.

[Daniel]

The FIA is a joke.

Ferrari put peoples health & safety at risk in Valencia with ludicrous pitlane antics and get a small and meaningless fine. One race later a driver is forced into a move which he then immediately reverses and is approved by the race director and is punished with what is effectively a 8 point penalty.

F1 doesnt need the FIA, infact it is ruining the sport and holding it back from becoming more popular, what with Max Mosley's antics, the ridiculous witch hunts from last season and a string of obscene and out-proportioned penalties against McLaren this season.

Spirit of the blitz eh wot wot?

[ioan]

I dont know if this has already been posted but :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

Here is proof that Hamilton did not slow down one bit after cutting that chicane. Just watch and listen, the evidence is clear.

Besides : The race stewards are able to view the telemetry after the race. It's not exactly hard to see if Hamilton did or did not lift his foot from the gas pedal now is it?

Very interesting info.
From this video it seems like Lewis didn't let Kimi back, it seems like he simply lost out under acceleration because he had less grip on the run out area than the Ferrari on the track.

I would, however, like to see the telemetry data the stewards had, before deciding what was right and what was wrong.

[ioan]

You do have a point. McLaren should go along with other manufacturer's and create a break-away series.

The question is, why would any other manufacturer go along with the cheaters to create a break-away series?!

[ShiftingGears]

The FIA need competant race stewards.

Hamilton was a victim of circumstance there. There was no way that he could've made that chicane, because he had to go to the outside to avoid hitting Raikkonen braking extremely early, but wasn't far enough in front to dictate the line through the chicane.

In other words, he gained an advantage in the sense that he took the only line availiable which involved him not totalling his car.

He fully conceded the position he gained, allowing Raikkonen to get his car totally in front of his own, and on the racing line. That's what I have always interpreted as negating an advantage from cutting a chicane. He didn't jump the chicane to save time, he jumped it because he was forced to.

It was not like Hungary 2006 where Schumacher passed de la Rosa by cutting the chicane and only let him get a nose past before intentionally shutting the door. And there was no penalty given there, even though he was not negating the advantage. And the rules for chicane jumping have not changed.

Permanent race stewards are needed, because at the moment the stewards are just so horribly inconsistent (I am hoping they dont already have permanent race stewards).

Pretty typical though. The FIA wants a formula allowing more racing, then they get it and punish the drivers for racing. Incredible.

[ioan]

And here are two frames from said video:
Before the Bus Stop -
http://www.geocities.com/rollo75/busstop.jpg

And going into La Source -
http://www.geocities.com/rollo75/lasource.jpg

In both cases Raikkonen is ahead of Hamilton... now where's the advantage? I would have thought that if you were behind someone then the advantage rests with them.

How far should Hamilton have stayed behind? 3 seconds? 5 minutes? Since people are very quick to decide these things perhaps they could enlighten me as to how the Scarlett Ferrari is in front of the Silver Ferrari in this photo if Hamilton gained an advantage by being behind him... hmm.

I hope you realize that there is a difference in distance between the cars in your 2 pictures.
Also in the second picture they are not going into La Source, they are barely going over the start-finish line (you can see the starting grid traced on the tarmac).

Will we ever get to have access to the data that the stewards saw, in order to be able to take our own decisions? I think it would be a good step forward for F1 to make public such data.
Did you hear that Bernie? That would make it interesting for us, not seeing the Fing mobile billboards 30 more times a race!

[ioan]

? 25 seconds (equivalent to a drive through penalty)
i think they should decide this track by track

No way, you lot would be than complaining about consistency again! So make up your mind, do you want consistent penalties or not?

[ShiftingGears]

Very interesting info.
From this video it seems like Lewis didn't let Kimi back,

But that's just speculation - the immediate advantage was that Hamilton gained a position, but then, whether he intended to or not, he conceded it to Raikkonen, negating that advantage.

[ioan]

If you can't see this as blatant pro-Ferrari bias by the FIA, then you must be so blind that Jesus couldn't cure you.

If you can't think before posting such comments, than ... I better not say what I'm thinking right now.

[mstillhere]

I got it. The rfules in question are: Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.

[ioan]

Not having watched the race, nor the incident (since I had to go shopping), I will wait until the final definitive assessment from ioan before accepting what the correct decision should have been.

You little bad boy, you go shopping on a Sunday evening, instead of watching THE F1 race?! Santa won't bring you presents this Christmas! :D

[Rollo]

? 25 seconds (equivalent to a drive through penalty)
i think they should decide this track by track


This is a prescribed penalty as defined by Article 13.6 of the 2008 Sporting Regulations -
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 5-2008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf)
The FIA have acted according to the law for what they thought was an offence, but which everyone ehere has been debating for the past 200 odd posts.

[pino]

As a Ferrari and Massa fan, I feel terrible at the decision. Hammy won fair and square. Hope the decision is overturned.


And as a Ferrari fan I agree with FIA about this : Lewis gained an huge advantage by cutting that shicane, anyone with driving experience would understand that :p :

[ioan]

It's interesting to see how everyone is blasting everything and everyone around here but yet we dont know what the regulations say in this regard, That should be our first step. Once we read it then we can start insulting each other. Without that knowledge though, everything else seems to be just an hysterical mayhem.

But that's totally normal around here. There are lots of them who only know about Hamilton being a F1 driver and that's enough for them to judge this event and insult the stewards. ;)

Truth is I think that the stewards should not change the results of a race, but they could still impose a 10 places penalty for next race, if they deemed it necessary in this occasion.

I'm off to search for the full FIA documentation about this incident.

[cosmicpanda]

Had Hamilton conceded defeat in the overtake, he would have had to closely follow Raikkonen through the left-hand exit of the chicane. Hamilton could not have been on the throttle as quickly as Raikkonen because he would have had to wait to hit the throttle on corner exit until Raikkonen's car began to accellerate. Most F1 overtakes are the clear result of a driver with a certain gap taking a corner at a higher rate of speed and carrying more onto the next straight. If the gap is zero (as it was with Lewis still alongside), the concertina effect occurs and there is no speed advantage relative to distance.

Without disagreeing with the general intent of your post, I was wondering about this paragraph.

My understanding of the 'concertina effect' is that it is the bunching of the field through slow corners, and the spreading out of the field on straights. It happens because when two cars travelling at a low speed are separated by, say, .3s, there is a much smaller distance between them than when they are both travelling at a high speed. Am I wrong? What were you talking about when you said:

"If the gap is zero (as it was with Lewis still alongside), the concertina effect occurs and there is no speed advantage relative to distance."

I would also like to know what you mean by "speed advantage relative to distance." It sounds like an intriguing concept that I haven't heard of before.

[MAX_THRUST]

I think we can all disregard Ioans posts as pointless and un - informed.

As for the decision F1 is trying to kill it self. Best wheel to wheel racing in years, which the fans want, and then they have to ruin it. Great race, both Kimi and Lewis were sensational, their achievements have been ruined by this dyer decision.

Disgusting.

Last time Ferrari nearly run peolpe down in the pitts and nothing happens, Lewis gets forced wide by Kimi and prevents an accident and gives back the place, penalised........??????WTF>

[ShiftingGears]

But that's just speculation - the immediate advantage was that Hamilton gained a position, but then, whether he intended to or not, he conceded it to Raikkonen, negating that advantage.

This is forgetting the fact that Raikkonen was still pulling away from Hamilton throughout the straight, like he would've done if he hadn't boxed Hamilton in during the first part of the chicane. It was the braking ability that allowed Lewis in front.

[ioan]

Well, I will offer here my well-educated analysis, and I'll try to keep it brief

The incident in question began as Hamilton was in Kimi's slipstream, and dived out of it to make a pass entering the bus stop chicane.

Note here that Lewis is attempting an outside pass. Think back to successful outside passes, they are generally accomplished by arriving at the apex of the turn well ahead of the car being passed. In this case, Hamilton was actually behind Raikkonen at the apex point. No good F1 driver, certainly not a WDC, will care at this point how much road he leaves for the driver who is attempting the overtake, because he clearly beat the driver and owns the corner.

Now, it's up to the overtaking driver, in this case Hamilton, to recognize that most any driver is going to use up all of the exit.

Had Hamilton conceded defeat in the overtake, he would have had to closely follow Raikkonen through the left-hand exit of the chicane. Hamilton could not have been on the throttle as quickly as Raikkonen because he would have had to wait to hit the throttle on corner exit until Raikkonen's car began to accellerate. Most F1 overtakes are the clear result of a driver with a certain gap taking a corner at a higher rate of speed and carrying more onto the next straight. If the gap is zero (as it was with Lewis still alongside), the concertina effect occurs and there is no speed advantage relative to distance.

So here, Hamilton cuts the chicane, thus eliminating the effect of following Raikkonen through the corner and having to accelerate at the same point on the corner exit, which would have had a distancing effect between the two cars.

Now they are both on the pit straight. In my opinion, Hamilton, having entered the track at a point ahead of Raikkonen, was problably accelerating as hard as possible on the dirty and damp part of the track, allowing Raikkonen the good lauch and he to accelerate past Hamilton.

However, at this point the McLaren was much closer to the Ferrari than would have been possible if Hamilton had made the previous corner.

So, net gain goes to Hamilton, allowing him to be close enough to dive down the inside of Raikkonen into La Source.

Fernando Alonso did the exact same thing in Suzuka a few years back, and he was subsequently told to slow down on track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lteu8yVzIOQ Watch at 1:20 - 2:00.

:up:

Now if we only had some access to the important data, we could settle this once and forever.

[ioan]

But that's just speculation - the immediate advantage was that Hamilton gained a position, but then, whether he intended to or not, he conceded it to Raikkonen, negating that advantage.

And that's exactly what I said in the part of my post that you chose not to quote. :rolleyes:
Want to argue? OK, but than do it fairly, and with someone who doesn't agree with you.

[ioan]

This is a prescribed penalty as defined by Article 13.6 of the 2008 Sporting Regulations -
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 5-2008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf)
The FIA have acted according to the law for what they thought was an offence, but which everyone ehere has been debating for the past 200 odd posts.

You mean article 16.3.

[F1boat]

I want to thank the Shifter for the post. Now I won't blast anyone and will respect the decision of the Court of Appeal. If alonso was punished for such move, then maybe Lewis deserves to be punished as well.

[ioan]

Without disagreeing with the general intent of your post, I was wondering about this paragraph.

My understanding of the 'concertina effect' is that it is the bunching of the field through slow corners, and the spreading out of the field on straights. It happens because when two cars travelling at a low speed are separated by, say, .3s, there is a much smaller distance between them than when they are both travelling at a high speed. Am I wrong? What were you talking about when you said:

"If the gap is zero (as it was with Lewis still alongside), the concertina effect occurs and there is no speed advantage relative to distance."

I would also like to know what you mean by "speed advantage relative to distance." It sounds like an intriguing concept that I haven't heard of before.

He meant to say that id there is enough distance between the 2 cars than the following car can, at least in theory, carry a higher speed through the corner and thus have an advantage down the straight.
However when the cars are following each other very very closely like it would have been if Hamilton would have decided not to cut the chicane, then the following car can't go faster than the car in front, not without running over it, and thus it won't have a speed advantage down the following straight.

[ShiftingGears]

And that's exactly what I said in the part of my post that you chose not to quote. :rolleyes:
Want to argue? OK, but than do it fairly, and with someone who doesn't agree with you.

I don't think telemetry would shed any more light on the situation than what is present at the moment. But you can roll your eyes and treat it as an attack.

[ioan]

I think we can all disregard Ioans posts as pointless and un - informed.

:rolleyes:

[ioan]

I don't think telemetry would shed any more light on the situation than what is present at the moment. But you can roll your eyes and treat it as an attack.

Look, if the telemetry shows that Hamilton was not continuously accelerating after he decided to cut the chicane, than he would be obviously not guilty and should not be penalized.
I don't think I was wrong by saying that the telemetry data is the key to this whole debacle. And I would rather base my decision on hard data than any human impression that the stewards might have had.

[fandango]

At first I thought the decision was harsh and unfair. Now I think the stewards are right. Hamilton gained an advantage in cutting the chicane. Many say he negated that advantage by letting Kimi through. However, I don't think he did enough to negate the advantage.

If he had gone through the chicane behind Kimi he woudn't have been in such a good position to pass him going into La Source.

Some say he couldn't have have gone through the chicane behind Kimi without crashing into him. This is, imo, because he was way too ambitious trying to pass at the chicane: Kimi had already won it at the first apex, and there simply isn't room for two cars to go through side-by-side.

So he outbrakes Kimi at La Source, but found it impossible to use those same brakes (as only he can, according to some) one corner earlier? Where would Hamilton have been if he hadn't cut the chicane? Not as well placed as he was as he went over the line. Kimi was left racing Hamilton where was on the track, not where he should have been.

I think it's also worth mentioning that Kimi was a bit of a dunce here too. Knowing that Lewis had an unfair advantage and would be forced to yield to him or face a penalty, he didn't really use the situation to his advantage.

[ioan]

I want to thank the Shifter for the post. Now I won't blast anyone and will respect the decision of the Court of Appeal.

That's fair! :up:

[ShiftingGears]

Look, if the telemetry shows that Hamilton was not continuously accelerating after he decided to cut the chicane, than he would be obviously not guilty and should not be penalized. I don't think I was wrong by saying that the telemetry data is the key to this whole debacle. And I would rather base my decision on hard data than any human impression that the stewards might have had.

But what his intention was, is irrelevant, because he couldn'tve made that chicane without cutting it, and whether he wanted to or not, he negated the advantage he had by cutting the chicane, by conceding the position.

[ShiftingGears]

At first I thought the decision was harsh and unfair. Now I think the stewards are right. Hamilton gained an advantage in cutting the chicane. Many say he negated that advantage by letting Kimi through. However, I don't think he did enough to negate the advantage.

What would you suggest then, in a similar situation? Surely conceding the position so that the gap was the same as before the chicane was cut is sufficient.


If he had gone through the chicane behind Kimi he woudn't have been in such a good position to pass him going into La Source.

Some say he couldn't have have gone through the chicane behind Kimi without crashing into him. This is, imo, because he was way too ambitious trying to pass at the chicane: Kimi had already won it at the first apex, and there simply isn't room for two cars to go through side-by-side.

Hamilton clearly had nowhere to go. Unless you're suggesting that he should've parked his car so that Kimi could go through the chicane without Lewis cutting it. As a competitive race driver, with a split second to think about that - In your dreams.


So he outbrakes Kimi at La Source, but found it impossible to use those same brakes (as only he can, according to some) one corner earlier?

Watch the actual footage. Hamilton brakes at least half a second later than Kimi, going into the chicane.


Where would Hamilton have been if he hadn't cut the chicane? Not as well placed as he was as he went over the line. Kimi was left racing Hamilton where was on the track, not where he should have been.

He would've been in Raikkonen's sidepod, or rear wheel. There was no room at that chicane, because Raikkonen was dictating the line through there, and he chose to use all of the chicane.


I think it's also worth mentioning that Kimi was a bit of a dunce here too. Knowing that Lewis had an unfair advantage and would be forced to yield to him or face a penalty, he didn't really use the situation to his advantage.

An armchair expert, I see.

[ioan]

But what his intention was, is irrelevant, because he couldn'tve made that chicane without cutting it, and whether he wanted to or not, he negated the advantage he had by cutting the chicane, by conceding the position.

Just take a look to my first post in this thread. I conceded that Hamilton gave back the position. And thus I said that he was right.

However the stewards think he didn't do it right. That's why I would like to have a chance to see the telemetry data. If it's clear that Lewis lifted in rder to give up his advantage, than he shouldn't have been punished.

This isn't about intentions, it's about advantages that one gets unfairly.

And like always, we, the fans are kept in the dark in regard to the relevant data, needed to judge the situation.

[Tonieke]

the video posted here from onboard..goin into the chicane...One can clearly see Lewis was way faster on the approach of it..Kimi saw Lewis was goin to make an attempt to pass him an staid on the right...Due to this blocking move of Kimi he couldn't make the first part of the chicane in a propre way..look at where his car is positioned coming out of the first part of the chicane..than look at the position of any car taking the chicane in a "normal" way..having Lewis besides him he just not left any room for Lewis leaving him no other choise than to cut of the chicane to avoid an accident...

also the other video...Like others said..You have to see the data...I persoanly am not an expert to tell from this video Lewis was goin at full speed or not...anyway..just like in so many incidents in the past...Lewis let Kimi pass by again...normal racing incident one would say..end of story...

face 3...Lewis being back in the position from before the chicane...behind Kimi...Kimi passing Lewis on the straight line meaning Lewis was slower...also meaning the cutting of the chicane didn't gave him any advantage...anyway Lewis was able again to break way later than Kimi..and moves back into 1st spot..although..and again..why is this never mentioned by the marchals for dangerous driving ?...Kimi tried to take him out by aiming for his right rear tire...

[ioan]

There was no room at that chicane, because Raikkonen was dictating the line through there, and he chose to use all of the chicane.

That's the relevant part of it. Kimi had the right to chose the line because he had the winning line in the chicane.

Hamilton had to chose between braking and giving up the chicane or cut it. He chose the one that put him in a difficult situation.

We need to know if he did enough to negate the advantage he gained by cutting the chicane.

[ioan]

the video posted here from onboard..goin into the chicane...One can clearly see Lewis was way faster on the approach of it..Kimi saw Lewis was goin to make an attempt to pass him an staid on the right...Due to this blocking move of Kimi he couldn't make the first part of the chicane in a propre way..look at where his car is positioned coming out of the first part of the chicane..than look at the position of any car taking the chicane in a "normal" way..having Lewis besides him he just not left any room for Lewis leaving him no other choise than to cut of the chicane to avoid an accident...

That's called racing. Hamilton was the one who made the mistake by thinking he would be able to overtake Kimi on the outside going into the chicane. Obviously he wasn't in a superior position.

There were several other people who overtook going into that chicane, they were all completely in front of the overtaken car when they turned in for the first part of the chicane and could take the right line to exit it. Hamilton was relying on Kimi letting him through and that was never going to happen.

[ShiftingGears]

Just take a look to my first post in this thread. I conceded that Hamilton gave back the position. And thus I said that he was right.

I wasn't claiming that you thought otherwise.


However the stewards think he didn't do it right. That's why I would like to have a chance to see the telemetry data. If it's clear that Lewis lifted in rder to give up his advantage, than he shouldn't have been punished.

This isn't about intentions, it's about advantages that one gets unfairly.

Exactly - I don't think that Lewis should be punished for whether he lifted or didn't, because the end result was that he conceded the position to Raikkonen, negating the advantage he had.


And like always, we, the fans are kept in the dark in regard to the relevant data, needed to judge the situation.

I would like to see the telemetry available to the public, even though I dont think that would ever happen, due to fear that giving away telemetry will give other F1 teams an advantage.

[Tonieke]

That's called racing. Hamilton was the one who made the mistake by thinking he would be able to overtake Kimi on the outside going into the chicane. Obviously he wasn't in a superior position.

There were several other people who overtook going into that chicane, they were all completely in front of the overtaken car when they turned in for the first part of the chicane and could take the right line to exit it. Hamilton was relying on Kimi letting him through and that was never going to happen.


to me the superior position is the one being on the ideal racing line...It was actualy Kimi making a block move..staying on the inside line..off the racing line....But also meaning he couldn't take the chicane in the ideal way..pushing the car besides him off the track...

but like you said..it's called racing and this should have been seen as just a racing incident...end of story !

[ArrowsFA1]

Setting aside the rights and wrongs of this, what pisses me off as an F1 fan is that a great race has been ruined. Whether the decision is overturned or not the 2008 Belgian GP will be remembered for this and not for the dramatic and exciting last few laps.

Coming into work on Monday morning people are not talking about a great race at one of the great F1 venues, and they should be.

[ioan]

Exactly - I don't think that Lewis should be punished for whether he lifted or didn't, because the end result was that he conceded the position to Raikkonen, negating the advantage he had.

If he didn't lift, than he didn't give back the advantage he gained by cutting the chicane, and he is guilty.

If he lifted than he is unguilty.



I would like to see the telemetry available to the public, even though I dont think that would ever happen, due to fear that giving away telemetry will give other F1 teams an advantage.

They will have to make the telemetry data public for the appeal anyway.