Fred Nation lays egg at Motor Industry Association conference

[DBell]

I came across this link and couldn't believe it when I read it.

http://www.rfmsports.com/IMSA/ALMS/Specials/ALMSspecials.MIA.conference.2008.html

This is what the conference was about:


The official banner of the conference was: “Fuel economy and energy efficiency: How racing can deliver innovative solutions…fast!” The unofficial tag was “Relevancy” and that theme was raised throughout the daylong conference held on Belle Isle at the Detroit Yacht Club.


This is what Fred said:

In contrast, Fred Nation, Executive V.P. of the IRL and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, offered only that all their cars operate on 100% ethanol. The remainder of his presentation focused on changes (or the lack thereof) to the IRL format following the “reunification” with CWS. For example, no one should expect to see less than 50% of their races held on ovals; the relevancy of which was lost on most conference participants. When asked if IRL was willing to become more radical, even in terms of chassis development, Nation remarked that there was “too much inertia in favor of the current evolution of Indy cars” to become really radical.

So at a conference of Industry big wigs and engineers, a perfect opportunity to state some of ideas the IRL would like to see in their future engine and chassis designs, they send Fred Nation in to say that. :rolleyes: Brilliant!! I'm sure Fred's off topic and lack of vision for the future speech impressed the manufacturers to consider future involvement in the IRL. A stupid self inflicted wound.

Too bad the didn't have Rahal as the official IRL spokesman as he sounded great. Unfortunately he seemed to be there more for BMW and the ALMS.

[Rex Monaco]

Too bad the didn't have Rahal as the official IRL spokesman as he sounded great.

He sure did!


“Spec racing discourages innovation,” (Rahal) observed. Rahal pointed to the groundbreaking Granatelli Turbine car that very nearly won the 1967 Indy 500 only to be banned from future races by USAC. “Sanctioning bodies don’t see the big picture”, he said, the implication being that innovation must come from a “non-spec” racing series.

[Wilf]

The official banner of the conference was:

“Fuel economy and energy efficiency: How racing can deliver innovative solutions…fast!”

I am anxious to hear how a radical chassis will deliver an innovative solution to the energy efficiency. ....
Just exactly what does a chassis, radical or not, have to do with fuel economy or energy efficiency?


The ugly chassis has reduced to near acceptable levels the annual carnage which used to occur in the annual great experiment.

The Safer Barrier is now a staple of every major auto racing venue in the United States.

The variable ratio rack and pinion system was developed and currently resides in the flop stage.
And these? Energy efficiency? Good improvements all, but not pertinent to the subject.


I found the report by Neil Chapel terribly flawed; he chose to knock the presentation of the only organization that had done something innovative to providing solutions to declining natural resources, and a lack of renewable energy simply because he apparently doesn't like the results of the reunification. Did he even mention any statistics about the breakthough improvements IMSA has generated through their Green Racing Challenge?
I assume you're talking about the current fuel. Corn derived ethanol is far from a solution to declining natural resources, since it requires a higher energy input to produce than it yields.

[dataman1]

He sure did!


“Spec racing discourages innovation,” (Rahal) observed. Rahal pointed to the groundbreaking Granatelli Turbine car that very nearly won the 1967 Indy 500 only to be banned from future races by USAC. “Sanctioning bodies don’t see the big picture”, he said, the implication being that innovation must come from a “non-spec” racing series.

Rahal hit the nail on the head. Having nearly 25 yrs as an official in CART/CCWS, I'm very familiar with their rulebook. I had a chance to meet with officials and team members of ALMS while in Detroit. Afterwards it is obvious to me why they have manufacturers involved. The rules allow for innovation. Example: Suspension and shocks are free in ALMS while it took paragraphs and technical drawings to cover the same equipment in CART. (I have not been able to get my hands on an ICS rulebook yet.) Food for thought.

[Wilf]

Just exactly what does a chassis, radical or not, have to do with fuel economy or energy efficiency?


I think that is what I asked before being edited!

[Wilf]

Just exactly what does a chassis, radical or not, have to do with fuel economy or energy efficiency?


And these? Energy efficiency? Good improvements all, but not pertinent to the subject.


I assume you're talking about the current fuel. Corn derived ethanol is far from a solution to declining natural resources, since it requires a higher energy input to produce than it yields.

Why am I arguing with myself? Only the editor knows!!!

[indycool]

The thread starter provided a large leap in the story from its beginning to taking a shot at Nation. Coming from the IMSA/ALMS board, it's pretty obvious that Nation's comment about 50 percent ovals is featured to tell the road racers of the IRL to come to the ALMS instead.

[Chris R]

is there something missing from this thread? it does not really make sense?

Seems like Fred Nation was supposed to talk about energy efficiency in racing and didn't...

Sounds like Rahal did.

It does sound like Nation's comment about the "current trajectory of Indycar development" is a little out of touch with reality - I though we were talking about a new formula soon and we can all see that the "evolutionary" DP-01, while far from a flop as a car, was not what the doctor ordered in terms of revitalizing interest in Champcar.....

Anything else to the story??

[indycool]

Agreed, Chris. The story itself seems to be a left-handed ootch to competitors to play with ALMS rather than the IRL...if that was, it's even off-topic, so how far off topic can we tell that ANYONE went.

[DBell]

Anything else to the story??

Sure. Why didn't the IRL use this as an opportunity to at least say what general concepts they would like to see in the coming years in the form of technology come into the sport. Whether it be a KERS system, hybrid engines or whatever, show that someone in the series is thinking of a long term concept of how the IRL will develop.

There is very little evidence that I've seen that suggest the IRL has a big picture plan on how they will make the series attractive to auto manufacturers. Going by current TV ratings and a downgraded TV package for the future, marketing value doesn't seem to be that attractive of an option at the moment. So it has to be something else to get a company like BMW, for example, motivated to make the financial commitment to join. Relevancy is becoming a large looming question mark for all of auto racing as the world changes. Some series like ALMS,LMS and F1 are addressing this issue. The IRL needs to at least show it's thinking about it. To me, the IRL going to a conference like this and putting out the information it did says they have no long term direction. For a the IRL, a series that desperately needs a couple of manufacturers to join in 2 years, this was a needlessly wasted opportunity. They can't afford this. They have to be on the ball at every opportunity to convince companies that this series is worth investing in.

[FormerFF]

I assume you're talking about the current fuel. Corn derived ethanol is far from a solution to declining natural resources, since it requires a higher energy input to produce than it yields.

Not that it really matters, but the current consensus is that corn-based ethanol production has about a 15% energy gain - that is, if you put in six units of petroleum energy in and you get about seven units out. Considering the amount of cropland and fertilizer needed, your conclusion that it is not a solution is 100% correct. The only biofuel that shows real promise would be an algae based biodiesel, and that's totally in the theory stage right now.

[Chris R]

Sure. Why didn't the IRL use this as an opportunity to at least say what general concepts they would like to see in the coming years in the form of technology come into the sport. Whether it be a KERS system, hybrid engines or whatever, show that someone in the series is thinking of a long term concept of how the IRL will develop.

There is very little evidence that I've seen that suggest the IRL has a big picture plan on how they will make the series attractive to auto manufacturers. Going by current TV ratings and a downgraded TV package for the future, marketing value doesn't seem to be that attractive of an option at the moment. So it has to be something else to get a company like BMW, for example, motivated to make the financial commitment to join. Relevancy is becoming a large looming question mark for all of auto racing as the world changes. Some series like ALMS,LMS and F1 are addressing this issue. The IRL needs to at least show it's thinking about it. To me, the IRL going to a conference like this and putting out the information it did says they have no long term direction. For a the IRL, a series that desperately needs a couple of manufacturers to join in 2 years, this was a needlessly wasted opportunity. They can't afford this. They have to be on the ball at every opportunity to convince companies that this series is worth investing in.

I agree with your concerns - but I am not sure the IRL needs to or can go as radical as ALMS - for one thing the ovals will not lend themselves to some of the technology and for another, I think the IRL is far too weak to demand a high level of investment in new technology from anyone - if they do a new formula and nobody comes to play they are absolutely finished... If ALMS creates a "green" niche and it falls on its face they can do what sports car racing always does when the manufacturers bolt - fall back on the GT series or older "prototypes" and muddle through a couple of seasons before they get it together again....

Like I said, I totally agree with your concerns and with the fact that the IRL really missed a good opportunity to say something positive - even if it was spun in a different direction - but I am not convinced the ALMS plan is the right one for the IRL

I would also like to note that I am not as big of a fan of manufacturer involvement as many people are - I think the manufacturers are a big reason why AOWR is in such dire straits now anyway teams got too used to big manufacturer subsidies and tobacco money and forgot how to run a team in a competitive business environment..... When those sources of funding dried up it really exacerbated the whole split...

[pits4me]

Agreed, Chris. The story itself seems to be a left-handed ootch to competitors to play with ALMS rather than the IRL...if that was, it's even off-topic, so how far off topic can we tell that ANYONE went.

No. It was an invitation for series to share their strategic goals as they relate to new fuel technology, etc. Innovation is negligable when it comes to the IRL -- which explains why Nation was off point.

Lord Drayson is very passionate about E85 fuel and the need to develop a compromise between food and energy lobbyists. Laying down a foundation to seek and develop ethanol/methanol fuels from sources other than edible grain would have gone a long way to bringing visibility where it belongs.

The perception that the ICS runs 100% ethanol "as the cool thing to do" versus 100% methanol which has been the mainstay of US open wheel needs some explanation.

[garyshell]

Going by current TV ratings and a downgraded TV package for the future, marketing value doesn't seem to be that attractive of an option at the moment.

Characterizing it as a "downgrade" is a bit premature don't you think? "Questionable" might be a more precise. I am not excited about it since Time Warner Cable here doesn't carry it, but I am not ready to say it is a downgrade from the pathetic performance from ESPN and ABC.

Gary

[Chris R]

Agreed, Chris. The story itself seems to be a left-handed ootch to competitors to play with ALMS rather than the IRL...if that was, it's even off-topic, so how far off topic can we tell that ANYONE went.

I didn't even get that out of it - just that Nation did what most politicos do when they don't have anything to say on a specific topic - they talk about something else and hope nobody notices.....

I think the IRL and ALMS are taking divergent paths that offer different types of competitors different advantages and also offer some a chance to diversify so as to isolate themselves a little better from the vagaries of business.... I would imagine when teams have two programs the more profitable one supports the other and overtime they go back and forth between which is more profitable....

[garyshell]

Not that it really matters, but the current consensus is that corn-based ethanol production has about a 15% energy gain - that is, if you put in six units of petroleum energy in and you get about seven units out. Considering the amount of cropland and fertilizer needed, your conclusion that it is not a solution is 100% correct. The only biofuel that shows real promise would be an algae based biodiesel, and that's totally in the theory stage right now.

And some of the biomass efforts arround switchgrass and other non crop, "weed like" plants.

Gary

[pits4me]

Not to address Spanish Language telecasts on VHF/UHF terrestrial stations is even more pathetic Gary.


The only biofuel that shows real promise would be an algae based biodiesel, and that's totally in the theory stage right now.

The Bio-Medical field has been working on technology transfer of engineered enzymes for years. Only recently has there been heightened interest to apply it to creating methanol out of garbage economically.

[Rex Monaco]

Originally Posted by Rex Monaco
The official banner of the conference was:

“Fuel economy and energy efficiency: How racing can deliver innovative solutions…fast!”

I am anxious to hear how a radical chassis will deliver an innovative solution to the energy efficiency. ....

I didn't post that at all. Who'd you get that quote from?

[indycool]

Well, the IRL is the only series using ethanol, which can be argued about all day (and is in high quarters) and it's meeting with manufacturers for future specs for its sport and a conclusion can certainly be drawn that manufacturers will be wanting to work on fuel conservation and that can be a part of the new specs. That's reasonable enough, and Nation apparently said so, on the topic itself. On the rest off topic that ALMS chose to put on its website, Indycars race on ovals, like at Indianapolis, from which the term Indycars come from, and evolutionary rather than revolutionary tends to indicate that the IRL isn't going to try some radical deal that could sink the series. Seems credible to me.

[Rex Monaco]

Why am I arguing with myself? Only the editor knows!!!

Nevermind. I see.