Valencia testing

[jens]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2-nhAmywZ0&eurl=

Firstly a collision. :p :

[miksu]

Badoer seems to give way for Alonso, who oversteers and runs to Badoer... thats how it seems when looking at alonso's hands in the car.

[Viktory]

What on earth was Alonso doing?! ....

[ArrowsFA1]

A dastardly scheme by McLaren to disrupt Ferrari's testing, or perhaps a damp track...wet patch..."oooopsss...lost it"....thump..."sorry Luca".

:s mokin:

[zoostation]

A dastardly scheme by McLaren to disrupt Ferrari's testing, or perhaps a damp track...wet patch..."oooopsss...lost it"....thump..."sorry Luca".

:s mokin:

well put =]

[jas123f1]

Renault / 30 january 2007 at 17:31, by RF1 Paddock Pass ...

Position Driver Time ........Laps
1 ........ALO... 1'12.538 ...96
2 ........RAI ... 1'13.533 ...48
3 ........PIQ ... 1'13.550 ...31
4 ........VET ... 1'13.679 ...81
5 ........MOA ...1'13.686 ...38
6 ........TRU ... 1'13.752 ...54
7 ........HEI ... 1'13.863 ...56
8 ........FIS ... 1'13.871 ...37
9 ........BAR ... 1'14.018 ...35
10 ......NAK ... 1'14.527 ...79
11 ......ROI ... 1'14.638 ...43
12 ......SAT ...1'15.684 ...31
13 ......WEB ...1'15.729 ...32
14 ......BAD ... 1'20.030 ...47

[ioan]

What on earth was Alonso doing?! ....

Nobody is perfect! The only thing FA lacks is a brain. :p :
Someone should tell him this is just testing!

[mstillhere]

I seem to recall a couple of these accidents occuring last year with RB for which Alonso got penalised. It looks like he is back to his unsportive tactics.
Unfortunately for him Michael is gone.

[Big Ben]

I seem to recall a couple of these accidents occuring last year with RB for which Alonso got penalised. It looks like he is back to his unsportive tactics.
Unfortunately for him Michael is gone.

Yeah... MS is the man who can teach someone about fair play... You just need to follow his career if you want an example... Afterwards you'll what not to do...

[Big Ben]

Nobody is perfect! The only thing FA lacks is a brain. :p :
Someone should tell him this is just testing!

way off... as usual

[F1boat]

FA continues to show that evry great champion is quite ruthless.

[ioan]

FA continues to show that evry great champion is quite ruthless.

Trying to scare and ram a test driver is really pointless, unless they are testing the resistance of the new McTank!

[ioan]

way off... as usual

Not as much like running into other cars in testing! :p :

[jens]

F1Racing.net gives a bit different times than those in jas123f1's post. :) These should be the final results:

http://www.f1racing.net/en/testresults.php?testID=632
1 F. Alonso McLaren Bridgestone 01:12.563 85
2 N. Piquet jr. Renault Bridgestone 01:13.549 27
3 F. Montagny Toyota Bridgestone 01:13.672 33
4 S. Vettel BMW Bridgestone 01:13.683 75
5 K. Räikkönen Ferrari Bridgestone 01:13.691 45
6 J. Trulli Toyota Bridgestone 01:13.735 50
7 N. Heidfeld BMW Bridgestone 01:13.848 49
8 G. Fisichella Renault Bridgestone 01:13.867 34
9 R. Barrichello Honda Bridgestone 01:14.025 29
10 K. Nakajima Williams Bridgestone 01:14.520 51
11 J. Rossiter Honda Bridgestone 01:14.643 37
12 T. Sato Super Aguri Bridgestone 01:15.674 27
13 M. Webber Red Bull Bridgestone 01:15.726 27
14 L. Badoer Ferrari Bridgestone 01:16.334 35

Alonso's huge advantage raises questions.

[ioan]

Pitpass has another set of times, with more laps per driver:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=30425

[ArrowsFA1]

Trying to scare and ram a test driver is really pointless, unless they are testing the resistance of the new McTank!
:laugh:

1 F. Alonso McLaren Bridgestone 01:12.563 85
14 L. Badoer Ferrari Bridgestone 01:16.334 35
Alonso probably had to scare Luca...into going faster :p : At almost 4secs a lap slower the Ferrari was like a slow moving chicane :D

[Dazz9908]

We My man Webber do his Duck on water trick NOT,
Can't drive in the wet, I said it before.

[miksu]

:laugh:

Alonso probably had to scare Luca...into going faster :p : At almost 4secs a lap slower the Ferrari was like a slow moving chicane :D

come on pal, you honestly think that was the difference between them? Not even spyker will loose 4 secs to the fastest time next year. that was because luca didnt drive in the afternoon when track got better and better...

[Ian McC]

:laugh:

Looks like the bitching has started early this year :D

[Sleeper]

A largely wet day and the first with the teams running the new cars properly. Times are probably meaningless.

[Mickey T]

Trying to scare and ram a test driver is really pointless, unless they are testing the resistance of the new McTank!

so, let me get this correct.

when MS parks his car on the line in qualifying in monaco and is soundly criticised by most drivers and engineers in the paddock, and most people on this site, you insist it's all lies and conspiracy because nobody but ferrari has access to all the throttle input, braking, steering data etc.

yet, you are happy to jump to this conclusion about alonso based on five seconds of footage?

your ethical standards are confusing me...

[mstillhere]

Yeah... MS is the man who can teach someone about fair play... You just need to follow his career if you want an example... Afterwards you'll what not to do...

WOW!! EU. You are a real MATADOR. I love the way you assert yourself. After I read your masterpieces I think WOW!! he is right...but that only lasts a second. Then I go: NOOOOO.
I'll love to antagonize you throught this year's championship. Its' actually going to be nice to finally see a Spaniard being able to talk about engines and cars. WOW!!

[Hawkmoon]

so, let me get this correct.

when MS parks his car on the line in qualifying in monaco and is soundly criticised by most drivers and engineers in the paddock, and most people on this site, you insist it's all lies and conspiracy because nobody but ferrari has access to all the throttle input, braking, steering data etc.

yet, you are happy to jump to this conclusion about alonso based on five seconds of footage?

your ethical standards are confusing me...

I'm pretty sure ioan was joking.

Besides, poking fun at McLaren is a Ferrari fans favourite passtime.

I get hours of fun out of it! ;)

[Dazz9908]

the Ferrari ran wide and didn't really give enough room.
Hey Lets all be bias.

[harsha]

more impressive is the times by alonso in the Mclaren

[RJL25]

We My man Webber do his Duck on water trick NOT,
Can't drive in the wet, I said it before.

notice that the red bull car is now running around without its rear winglets which it had during its shake-down run? I read in an aussie mag called "auto action" today that the whole rear bodywork of the car is still under development and is about 2 weeks behind schedule, and the rear bodywork that is currently on the car is just a bit of a cosmetic job and the real deal will infact look noticably different.

Obviously without its winglets on the car and the entire rear bodywork not the final product, then the aero on the car would be all over the place, so this in all likelyhood explains webber's lack of pace, not the fact that he can't drive on water cos if you actually did some research you would see that the track dried towards the end of the day and obviously all the fastest times where done under nearly fully dry weather conditions.

[Dazz9908]

notice that the red bull car is now running around without its rear winglets which it had during its shake-down run? I read in an aussie mag called "auto action" today that the whole rear bodywork of the car is still under development and is about 2 weeks behind schedule, and the rear bodywork that is currently on the car is just a bit of a cosmetic job and the real deal will infact look noticably different.

Obviously without its winglets on the car and the entire rear bodywork not the final product, then the aero on the car would be all over the place, so this in all likelyhood explains webber's lack of pace, not the fact that he can't drive on water cos if you actually did some research you would see that the track dried towards the end of the day and obviously all the fastest times where done under nearly fully dry weather conditions.
I wasn't clear enough, I referring to when Mark went off, that was in wet conditions, so I did read it after all. I was not referring to the times he produced.
And I read the same Mag. the rear wiglets were not missing the just not the calibrated ones they would like to use.

[RJL25]

sorry double post

[RJL25]

I wasn't clear enough, I referring to when Mark went off, that was in wet conditions, so I did read it after all. I was not referring to the times he produced.
And I read the same Mag. the rear wiglets were not missing the just not the calibrated ones they would like to use.

i wasnt aware you where referring to his off, so appologies for that.

however go and look at the photo's from the testing session, the winglets have indeed been removed. At the shake down they where badly bending over on themselfs and then here at valencia they had been removed completely (note attached pic). This would be making a significant difference

[Juppe]

McLaren has missed one minor detail regarding this season, or is just Ron's wishful thinking? :D :D :D

http://www.mclaren.com/f1season/tests/Valencia_Jan30.php




Driver Constructor Time Laps
Fernando Alonso Team McLaren Mercedes 1m12.563 102
Kimi Raikkonen Team McLaren Mercedes 1m13.529 47
Nelson Piquet Jr Renault 1m13.549 33
..............

[ShiftingGears]

How is Alonso so much faster? Wet weather skill or have McLaren got it right for their wet weather setup?

Thoughts?

[RJL25]

How is Alonso so much faster? Wet weather skill or have McLaren got it right for their wet weather setup?

Thoughts?

the fastest times where actually set in dry conditions, not wet. But quite appart from that its just testing mate... the times mean nothing

[Dazz9908]

i wasnt aware you where referring to his off, so appologies for that.

however go and look at the photo's from the testing session, the winglets have indeed been removed. At the shake down they where badly bending over on themselfs and then here at valencia they had been removed completely (note attached pic). This would be making a significant difference

No need to apologies, as I was the one who miss lead.

And Yes the most of the Winglets were off, sorry about that, I was quoting AA.
But the point I ws making that Mark in not very sure footed in Wet weather, His Aussie back ground coming through (Dry Country for those non Australians), Mark must improve this area of his racing skills, dough the world is getting drier so may not have to, sadly.

[ArrowsFA1]

come on pal, you honestly think that was the difference between them? Not even spyker will loose 4 secs to the fastest time next year. that was because luca didnt drive in the afternoon when track got better and better...
It was meant to be a funny throwaway comment in response to the equally funny and absurd suggestion that Alonso intended to "scare and ram a test driver" hence the :laugh: :p :D smilies

Sorry if it missed the target :dozey:

[AJP]

it was just a love tap....

no damage no foul...

who cares... :)

[Dzeidzei]

I'm pretty sure ioan was joking.

Besides, poking fun at McLaren is a Ferrari fans favourite passtime.

I get hours of fun out of it! ;)

I can relate to this. Now, when I can finally cheer for the reds again, making jokes about control freaks and the Spanish is sooooo much fun. Even tho I like the Spanish people.

Forza Ferrari :)

[Big Ben]

WOW!! EU. You are a real MATADOR. I love the way you assert yourself. After I read your masterpieces I think WOW!! he is right...but that only lasts a second. Then I go: NOOOOO.
I'll love to antagonize you throught this year's championship. Its' actually going to be nice to finally see a Spaniard being able to talk about engines and cars. WOW!!

come again?.... there's a "know" missing in my last sentence... if this is the problem with the way I assert myself!...

I don't really get what you are talking there... who's that Spaniard you are talking about and what do I have to do with him?

[samuratt]

Wow that is what i call to Kick the competition out!!!!! :D
In my opinion he tries to overtake (there is some space) ando lost the car a little, touches Luca's car and that is all... he did not try to kill anybody yet! ;)

Mstillhere please keep the nationality out of this!!!! I am still to read a post of you that makes some sense... but in the meantime please do me that favor ;)

[jens]

1 F. Alonso McLaren Bridgestone 01:12.582 86
2 G. Fisichella Renault Bridgestone 01:12.737 37
3 H. Kovalainen Renault Bridgestone 01:12.770 43
4 K. Räikkönen Ferrari Bridgestone 01:12.869 51
5 N. Heidfeld BMW Bridgestone 01:13.012 50
6 J. Trulli Toyota Bridgestone 01:13.297 47
7 R. Kubica BMW Bridgestone 01:13.310 42
8 F. Massa Ferrari Bridgestone 01:13.574 80
9 R. Barrichello Honda Bridgestone 01:13.690 72
10 J. Rossiter Honda Bridgestone 01:13.732 28
11 R. Schumacher Toyota Bridgestone 01:13.839 31
12 P. de la Rosa McLaren Bridgestone 01:14.286 41
13 K. Nakajima Williams Bridgestone 01:14.401 116
14 T. Sato Super Aguri Bridgestone 01:14.812 36
15 D. Coulthard Red Bull Bridgestone 01:15.939 26
16 G. van der Garde Super Aguri Bridgestone 01:26.348 4

Interesting, why RBR has been so slow on both days. And Honda is also not shining that they have been used to in winter testing in previous years.

[mstillhere]

Mstillhere please keep the nationality out of this!!!! ;)

Noted

[andreag]

Once again, Pitpass has a list where drivers have some more laps:

http://www.profacil.net/McLaren/Valencia3001.gif

Are they counting laps in the same way than other media?

[RJL25]

again, i wouldnt be too worried about RBR's lack of pace as they are still running the car without the difinitive winglets and other detail things on the car as they are still in the wind tunnel being finalised, the aero package they are running is a bit of a hybrid job. They are really just running the car around learning about the cars mechanical setup

[Ari]

How is Alonso so much faster? Wet weather skill or have McLaren got it right for their wet weather setup?

Thoughts?

Look at the number of laps Alonso put up. Perhaps he was running around by himself on a better, cleaner track. Dryer perhaps? or Warmer? That could easily make the time difference.

[Ari]

[i]Interesting, why RBR has been so slow on both days. And Honda is also not shining that they have been used to in winter testing in previous years.


As RJL25 said above.... RBR are not running any kinda setup aero at the moment, just a very simple kit to run laps. Nothing to worry about at all. Personally, im very happy with their pace considering their aero is so simple and theyre only a couple seconds behind.

[harsha]

Was Massa running a F2007

[RJL25]

its actually got me wondering if RBR are playing silly buggers here... i mean there is no way at all that their new car would be nearly a second slower then the super aguri car which is essentially last years honda, and even less likely that it would be nearly 1.5 seconds slower then last years williams driven by a rookie!

maybe they have something very tricky brewing in their wind tunnel and wanna leave it as late as possible to show to the public so that other teams dont have time to adopt it before melbourne??? I mean adrien newey pioneered those antler wings coming off the engine cover on the mclaren and later BMW cars, so why hasn't he got them on his RBR car? im just guessing here but im thinking the RBR car will look VERY different come melbourne... Both MW and DC seem abnormally confident about their prospects for the season ahead.........

[W8&C]

...thinking the RBR car will look VERY different come melbourne...
If testing times mean anything at all they MUST come with a car that looks very different :D .

[Juppe]

Was Massa running a F2007


No, Kimi was running the F2007 and Massa the 248F1.

[ST205GT4]

OR RBR are really going to be that slow and all of the hype surrounding Newey's move will be shown to be just that. Interesting times.

[RJL25]

OR RBR are really going to be that slow and all of the hype surrounding Newey's move will be shown to be just that. Interesting times.

i dont think any modern F1 team would manage to be inept enough to make their new car slower then their old one....















... except maybe williams

[Big Ben]

come again?.... there's a "know" missing in my last sentence... if this is the problem with the way I assert myself!...

I don't really get what you are talking there... who's that Spaniard you are talking about and what do I have to do with him?

So.... mstillhere.... I hoped for a reply... I still do!

[andreag]

Look at the number of laps Alonso put up. Perhaps he was running around by himself on a better, cleaner track. Dryer perhaps? or Warmer? That could easily make the time difference.
He was running on the same circuit/conditions than the rest. Both days he did a lot of work with wet tyres, and he just used a set of new dry tyres every day, and he drove with used tyres to make some 12 laps series. As every other team is doing, he used the new tyres when the weather conditions are optimal to test pure speed.

On monday he was the only McLaren driver, so he had to work more than other drivers with two cars on the track. On tuesday, Pedro just drove the second car (the same one Hamilton crashed) to check if repairs were OK, and even he didn't used any new tyre. Today Alonso and Hamilton will be driving, and depending on the conditions of the changing weather, they will have a longer or a shorter program.

But I don't think a fast McLaren is surprising, specially drove by a twice WDC.

[jens]

http://www.f1racing.net/en/testresults.php?testID=634
1 R. Schumacher Toyota Bridgestone 01:11.297 60
2 G. Fisichella Renault Bridgestone 01:11.621 121
3 H. Kovalainen Renault Bridgestone 01:11.643 108
4 F. Alonso McLaren Bridgestone 01:11.710 95
5 N. Heidfeld BMW Bridgestone 01:11.989 99
6 K. Räikkönen Ferrari Bridgestone 01:12.360 66
7 P. de la Rosa McLaren Bridgestone 01:12.361 69
8 F. Massa Ferrari Bridgestone 01:12.418 98
9 R. Kubica BMW Bridgestone 01:12.857 20
10 J. Button Honda Bridgestone 01:12.976 77
11 A. Davidson Super Aguri Bridgestone 01:13.143 133
12 D. Coulthard Red Bull Bridgestone 01:13.450 59
13 J. Rossiter Honda Bridgestone 01:13.728 30
14 M. Webber Red Bull Bridgestone 01:13.796 23
15 K. Nakajima Williams Bridgestone 01:13.945 82

So, Toyota tops the times.

I find this kind of evidence pretty interesting, because Toyota has never (!) been quick at winter tests and therefore they were for example underrated before 2005. Just wondering whether this quickness at the moment is a good sign or not.

On the other hand Honda (BAR) has always been quick at winter tests and now they are really struggling. Like before 2005...

Another interesting aspect is that practically everyone has had problems (BMW & Renault engines, Honda and McLaren cars braking down on a couple of occasions, Ferrari crashes) except... Toyota!

[F1boat]

If testing means anything, good for McLaren, Renault and Toyota, don't know about Ferrari and bad for Honda and Red Bull. But it is way too early.

[jens]

Let's recall winter testing sessions from last 3 seasons and what hints did it gave us and which not.

pre-2004 tests
BAR was flying during winter and they indeed had a solid season.
McLaren was struggling and it later proved to be serious.
Renault proved to be competitive in spite of the departure of Gascoyne.
Toyota was struggling.

Winter tests did not indicate that Ferrari would start dominating. It also didn't show that Williams would be struggling that much (although in the first races they were 2-3rd fastest, only Ferrari was so much ahead, which made them to look poor).

pre-2005 tests
A trio - Renault, McLaren & Ferrari - became title favourites. Later only Ferrari dropped out of that contention.
BAR was struggling and with a good reason.
RBR showed that they might surprise.

Tests didn't indicate Toyota's good form at the start of the season and as mentioned - Ferrari's fall.

pre-2006 tests
Renault was the favourite
McLaren had problems and tests showed that they'll probably drop out of title contention. So it proved.
Ferrari had slight problems at the end of winter testing, but for their own sake they got over them quite quickly at the start of the season (in Malaysia and Australia they were still struggling)
Toyota was struggling
RBR was struggling
Williams was quick and indeed in the first races they were pretty competitive

Tests didn't indicate Honda's true form. Or to said correctly - they were quick only on one lap (as during the tests), but couldn't maintain their pace during the race distance (Button qualified into Top3 in the first 4 races) - so their race pace was unpredictable.

So in conclusion...
1) Most teams' form at least for the start of the season (you never know, how someone develops during the season!) can be predicted, if they are predicted wisely and different circumstances are taken into account.
2) As you see, it's toughest to predict Ferrari's form. Most wrong predictions have been related with them. The reason is that they spend a lot of testing time privately at Fiorano, especially the last weeks before the first GP, therefore their real form is a bit hidden before the start.

Last year at the same time Honda was topping times at Valencia, Renault and Ferrari were also close to the top. McLaren and Toyota were struggling.

At the moment it's of course early and we have more than a month to go. But at least we have got a hint, what is anyone's starting point after new car launches. Let's see, what is going to happen in future and how much anyone can improve before 18.03.

So much about comparisons. If you'd like, you may make some conclusions on your own as well.

[F1boat]

Let's recall winter testing sessions from last 3 seasons and what hints did it gave us and which not.

pre-2004 tests
BAR was flying during winter and they indeed had a solid season.
McLaren was struggling and it later proved to be serious.
Renault proved to be competitive in spite of the departure of Gascoyne.
Toyota was struggling.

Winter tests did not indicate that Ferrari would start dominating. It also didn't show that Williams would be struggling that much (although in the first races they were 2-3rd fastest, only Ferrari was so much ahead, which made them to look poor).

pre-2005 tests
A trio - Renault, McLaren & Ferrari - became title favourites. Later only Ferrari dropped out of that contention.
BAR was struggling and with a good reason.
RBR showed that they might surprise.

Tests didn't indicate Toyota's good form at the start of the season and as mentioned - Ferrari's fall.

pre-2006 tests
Renault was the favourite
McLaren had problems and tests showed that they'll probably drop out of title contention. So it proved.
Ferrari had slight problems at the end of winter testing, but for their own sake they got over them quite quickly at the start of the season (in Malaysia and Australia they were still struggling)
Toyota was struggling
RBR was struggling
Williams was quick and indeed in the first races they were pretty competitive

Tests didn't indicate Honda's true form. Or to said correctly - they were quick only on one lap (as during the tests), but couldn't maintain their pace during the race distance (Button qualified into Top3 in the first 4 races) - so their race pace was unpredictable.

So in conclusion...
1) Most teams' form at least for the start of the season (you never know, how someone develops during the season!) can be predicted, if they are predicted wisely and different circumstances are taken into account.
2) As you see, it's toughest to predict Ferrari's form. Most wrong predictions have been related with them. The reason is that they spend a lot of testing time privately at Fiorano, especially the last weeks before the first GP, therefore their real form is a bit hidden before the start.

Last year at the same time Honda was topping times at Valencia, Renault and Ferrari were also close to the top. McLaren and Toyota were struggling.

At the moment it's of course early and we have more than a month to go. But at least we have got a hint, what is anyone's starting point after new car launches. Let's see, what is going to happen in future and how much anyone can improve before 18.03.

So much about comparisons. If you'd like, you may make some conclusions on your own as well.

Very nice post. Thank you. However, pre-2005 Ferrari seemed to struggle a bit.

[VresiBerba]

however go and look at the photo's from the testing session, the winglets have indeed been removed. At the shake down they where badly bending over on themselfs and then here at valencia they had been removed completely (note attached pic). This would be making a significant difference

Actually, during the presentation a week ago Red Bull ran three clearly visible setups; normal flips (http://www.f1total.com//bilder/2007/praes/07f1prrbr//z073.jpg), slightly bent flips (http://www.f1total.com//bilder/2007/praes/07f1prrbr//z066.jpg) and no flips at all (http://www.f1total.com//bilder/2007/praes/07f1prrbr//z081.jpg), all during the presentation shakedown.

[RJL25]

Actually, during the presentation a week ago Red Bull ran three clearly visible setups; normal flips (http://www.f1total.com//bilder/2007/praes/07f1prrbr//z073.jpg), slightly bent flips (http://www.f1total.com//bilder/2007/praes/07f1prrbr//z066.jpg) and no flips at all (http://www.f1total.com//bilder/2007/praes/07f1prrbr//z081.jpg), all during the presentation shakedown.

err no.. the "flips" that where presented where purely cosmetic, when these purely cosmetic "flips" bent over on themselfs during the shake down they simply removed them, hence explaining all 3 of your pictures.

Christian Horner has said publically that "many" aerodynamic features of the car are still under development including winglets, shimeys, deflectors etc, so i'm not just making this up

[wmcot]

No doubt most (if not all) teams have many aero upgrades coming before the first race. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on test times since we have no idea what programs were being run by each team.

It would only mean something if one team was 1-2 seconds faster than everyone else. Times are not that far apart at this point.

[Mickey T]

Mark was shaking down the second chassis yesterday, which partly explains it.

for the rest of the RBR's pace - they're still upbeat, but i detect a touch of concern.

it's the only twin-keel car out there this year. newey's theory is that a single keel will have more difficulty getting heat into the front tyres with these bridgestones.

[Dazz9908]

.................................................. .......
it's the only twin-keel car out there this year. newey's theory is that a single keel will have more difficulty getting heat into the front tyres with these bridgestones.
I've have to question this.
Ferrari is the most experienced team on Bridgestones, and always used a single keel.
I hope Newey is right for Mark's sake!.

[jens]

I was wrong saying that Toyota hasn't had any problems. I was wondering, why only Toyota was on the track yesterday and the answer is there:

http://www.planet-f1.com/News/Story_Page/0,15909,3210_3213_1889087,00.html

[Ranger]

I think RBR better get their rear-end aero sorted out lickety-split. 14th out of 15th in pre-season testing isn't reassuring!

They have a much bigger problem if their lack of pace thus far is to do with the twin-keel as that would supposedly affect the entire structure of the car.

I would hope not.

[jens]

What concerns RBR and also Honda, then I've got a feeling that better results will come in the second half of the season.

[VresiBerba]

err no.. the "flips" that where presented where purely cosmetic, when these purely cosmetic "flips" bent over on themselfs during the shake down they simply removed them, hence explaining all 3 of your pictures.
Excuse me, but what :confused:

How on earth did you come to the conclution that these parts, flips, objects, body parts, winglets or whatever you'd like to call them, were simply cosmetic? Did Red Bull put them there just for amusement, or perhaps to make the car look good, or what?

Carbon fibre don't have these properties, carbon fibre don't bend on will from being perfectly normal on one lap to be bent 45 degrees on the next. Or what do you think, they eventually blew of and Red Bull couldn't figure out how to reattach them for the Valencia test a week later?

Take a look at the images from the launch again. There CLEARLY exists three different set-ups, one normal, one bent and one without.

[Valve Bounce]

Vresi, it's for advertisement impact for Red Bull - it makes you want to try that goop. :p :

[mstillhere]

These are the official times, coming from the Valencia circuit web site:
(http://www.circuitvalencia.com/isum/contentCIRCUITO/SERVICES/noticias/lanzador_not.jsp?not=682&c=no)
1.- Lewis Hamilton GBR McLaren 1.11.119 112 vueltas (Laps)
2.- Kimi Raikkonen FIN Ferrari 1.11.855 112 vueltas
3.- Robert Kubica POL BMW Sauber 1.12.242 57 vueltas
4.- Pedro M. de la Rosa ESP McLaren 1.12.455 64 vueltas
5.- Giancarlo Fisichella ITA Renault F1 1.12.572 96 vueltas
6.- Sebastián Vettel ALE BMW Sauber 1.12.675 73 vueltas
7.- Heikki Kovalainen FIN Renault F1 1.12.679 98 vueltas
8.- Mark Webber AUS Red Bull 1.12.776 23 vueltas
9.- Jenson Button GBR Honda 1.12.995 89 vueltas
It looks like lewis did a pretty good job. Ferrari still behind McLaren, though.

[I am evil Homer]

So where have all the Lewis haters gone? He's bang on the pace and doing well :)

[jens]

What can be seen, is that Red Bull and Honda have closed the gap. Still interesting that RBR completes so few laps, Webber has driven 23 laps on both February days.

So when will the next testing take place - 6th February?

[VresiBerba]

So where have all the Lewis haters gone?

Lewis haters? I have to admit that I find this concept extremely unfamilliar. Does it exist at all?

[ratonmacias]

man the mclaren is fast not only is alonso posting top times but also lewis is doing it.

what will happen to kimi if alonso wins this year on kimis old car?

[Tazio]

Lewis haters? I have to admit that I find this concept extremely unfamilliar. Does it exist at all?
Jeez! Why so confrontational Homey?
Your trying to start trouble! My sentiments are the same as Vresi!
only I 'm going to take it a little further!
Nobody on this forum has expressed hatred towards LH!
Some people expressed concern about his relationship with his mother!
Other than that people may not prefer him, because they aren't Macer fans!
He has not given any reason to be hated. For the life of me I can't find a single post expressing hatred in any form towards him!Would it make you happy if people on this forum expressed hatred towards him? Maybe you should lobby for some haters. Although I think you should apologetically withdraw your statement.Don't get on peoples ignore list before the season even starts. Plus, more importantly. DON'T INSIGHT PEOPLE who post ideas that are meaningful, responsible, or funny! Or do like I'm doing. Call someone on making absurd statements!
Come on your better than that! Dig yourself!! Peace-Taz

[Tazio]

man the mclaren is fast not only is alonso posting top times but also lewis is doing it.
what will happen to kimi if alonso wins this year on kimis old car?

It,s not exactly his old car!
It will, however mean Mclaren got it right!
It is however a little early to project!
Personally I am hoping for it to be a really competitive, wide open duel at the top!
Honda, Mclaren, Renault, Ferrari, BMW, and just maybe, possibly, Williams, and Red bull could be in an epic struggle at the top!
Those last two are really just wishful thinking! Although, Red bull may really surprise IMHO!!!

[Dzeidzei]

man the mclaren is fast not only is alonso posting top times but also lewis is doing it.

what will happen to kimi if alonso wins this year on kimis old car?

Well, its actually not Kimi´s old car. I do hope it´ll be reliable too so we´ll see some good racing in 2007. But just to remind you, I remember Kimi doing very fast times in pre season testing during the last 2 years. And all we heard in the races was a big BANG. Way too often.

With Mac it has never been a question of speed. Its been about the reliability. If you cant beat the engine on max revs for 2 races, you have to limit it. And then youre not up to pace anymore.

Its not rocket science, my friends.

[andreag]

what will happen to kimi if alonso wins this year on kimis old car?
Kimi would quit F1 to concentrate on vodka. :beer:

[ratonmacias]

Well, its actually not Kimi´s old car. I do hope it´ll be reliable too so we´ll see some good racing in 2007. But just to remind you, I remember Kimi doing very fast times in pre season testing during the last 2 years. And all we heard in the races was a big BANG. Way too often.

With Mac it has never been a question of speed. Its been about the reliability. If you cant beat the engine on max revs for 2 races, you have to limit it. And then youre not up to pace anymore.

Its not rocket science, my friends.


i think alonso will be a better fit because he seems to take care of his car unlike kimi.

[jens]

Personally I am hoping for it to be a really competitive, wide open duel at the top!
Honda, Mclaren, Renault, Ferrari, BMW, and just maybe, possibly, Williams, and Red bull could be in an epic struggle at the top!
Those last two are really just wishful thinking! Although, Red bull may really surprise IMHO!!!

You have already written Toyota off?

[Juppe]

i think alonso will be a better fit because he seems to take care of his car unlike kimi.

Yes... and that's why McLaren has broken under Fernando only a couple of times... if he could not take care of it, it would have been down every other lap! :D

[raikk]

man the mclaren is fast not only is alonso posting top times but also lewis is doing it.

what will happen to kimi if alonso wins this year on kimis old car?

Then Kimi will kick himself and build a statue dedicated to me when I told him ''stay at Mcalren fool!''
:D

[ratonmacias]

Yes... and that's why McLaren has broken under Fernando only a couple of times... if he could not take care of it, it would have been down every other lap! :D

thats for sure, i hated it in 2005 when kimi had to make all these strategy races after his car had to be fitted with a new engine.

[Juppe]

Then Kimi will kick himself and build a statue dedicated to me when I told him ''stay at Mcalren fool!''
:D

No, he won't be doing that. You know, as Kimi revealed, his long time dream has been driving for Ferrari.

You gotta follow your dreams, man, even if it doesn't bring you the championship... :)

[Tazio]

You have already written Toyota off?

No! They wrote themselves off from the beginning.
If Toyota can pull themselves up near the top of the pack, I say bully, prop's, and good show.
I've always believed that JT, and RS are above average drivers.
Their equipment has sucked!
If the 2007 contender has hughly improved aero, and to a lesser degree reliability! I could be dead wrong!
It would make me happy to see JT, and Ralfie-boy on the podium
If the car comes alive, I hope JT, and RS still have the fight in them, because neither of them has had a car that gave them a chance to fight at the sharp end of the race for a few years!

[RJL25]

Excuse me, but what :confused:

How on earth did you come to the conclution that these parts, flips, objects, body parts, winglets or whatever you'd like to call them, were simply cosmetic? Did Red Bull put them there just for amusement, or perhaps to make the car look good, or what?

Carbon fibre don't have these properties, carbon fibre don't bend on will from being perfectly normal on one lap to be bent 45 degrees on the next. Or what do you think, they eventually blew of and Red Bull couldn't figure out how to reattach them for the Valencia test a week later?

Take a look at the images from the launch again. There CLEARLY exists three different set-ups, one normal, one bent and one without.



VresiBerba - im not gonna argue with you, christian horner said himself, as reported by a number of different sources, that the aero package on the car for the shakedown was purely cosmetic and the real deal is still in the wind tunnel being fine tuned. Your basing your observations on pictures, im basing mine on what the boss of RBR has actually said himself, who do you think might be a bit closer to the mark?

and carbon fibre can indeed bend, remember all that controversy a number of years ago when the top teams where experimenting with wings that folded flat at high speed to reduce drag on the straights, and then popped back up again when the cars speed slowed down for the corners?

[wmcot]

No! They wrote themselves off from the beginning.
If Toyota can pull themselves up near the top of the pack, I say bully, prop's, and good show.
I've always believed that JT, and RS are above average drivers.
Their equipment has sucked!
If the 2007 contender has hughly improved aero, and to a lesser degree reliability! I could be dead wrong!
It would make me happy to see JT, and Ralfie-boy on the podium
If the car comes alive, I hope JT, and RS still have the fight in them, because neither of them has had a car that gave them a chance to fight at the sharp end of the race for a few years!

I've never thought of JT and RS as "above average drivers" unless the car they were driving was above average. They are very good drivers, but looking at the pack out there I don't know if I would class them too close to the top.

[Big Ben]

No, he won't be doing that. You know, as Kimi revealed, his long time dream has been driving for Ferrari.

You gotta follow your dreams, man, even if it doesn't bring you the championship... :)

I have my doubts. I'd say it´s the other way around. He left for Ferrari only because he thought there he'll win the WDC.... And about his dream... That´s baloney. What would you expect him to say: "My dream was to drive for williams, but I yearn to win the WDC, so I'll take you for now." That would have sounded nice. Some people on this forum wrote that Todt was interested in him in his Sauber days.. so why then did he ever go to Mclaren?

PS: Dreams are like rainbows... only fools chase them :) ):

[Tazio]

I've never thought of JT and RS as "above average drivers" unless the car they were driving was above average. They are very good drivers, but looking at the pack out there I don't know if I would class them too close to the top.

Well I guess it doesn't
factor into your opinnion that RS, and JT are F-1 race winners! The only thing below average about them is the piece of Cr@p Toyota pays them millions to drive. These two have been competing in F-1 before 2004!The last time I checked you could count the number of pilots in the 2007 field with as many wins as Ralfi with the fingers on one hand. JT has won as many F1 races as the superstar Honda pilot Jenson Button. Does this mean that you should rate JB below average with whatever logic you are applying! There is alot of young unproven talent in F-1 right now But, as far as I'm concerned, untill they win a race, or make it a habit of standing on the podium they can't be rated higher than a race winner. The numberof non-race winners in this season's line up is higher than the number of pilots that have stood on the top step of an F-1 event. So, to my way of thinking that puts JT, and RS in the minority above. IN OTHER WORDS ABOVE AVERAGE FOR THE CURRENT FIELD

[Juppe]

I have my doubts. I'd say it´s the other way around. He left for Ferrari only because he thought there he'll win the WDC.... And about his dream... That´s baloney. What would you expect him to say: "My dream was to drive for williams, but I yearn to win the WDC, so I'll take you for now." That would have sounded nice. Some people on this forum wrote that Todt was interested in him in his Sauber days.. so why then did he ever go to Mclaren?

PS: Dreams are like rainbows... only fools chase them :) ):

I don't expect that you have followed Kimi's career and interviews as closely as I have, but he said even in his McLaren times that driving a Ferrari is his dream. He never said that driving McLaren is his dream, so go figure...

If you followed his career at the time of his move to McLaren you should know the reasons: top team, race seat, equal treatment, money....

Not all of those were available at Ferrari at the time.

[F1boat]

If Kimi loses to Alonso this year, I hope that he won't join JPM in NASCAR...

[Big Ben]

I don't expect that you have followed Kimi's career and interviews as closely as I have, but he said even in his McLaren times that driving a Ferrari is his dream. He never said that driving McLaren is his dream, so go figure...

If you followed his career at the time of his move to McLaren you should know the reasons: top team, race seat, equal treatment, money....

Not all of those were available at Ferrari at the time.

If u say so...

Top team, race seat, money... He could have recieved that.
Equal treatment... No way.

[Ari]

Let's recall winter testing sessions from last 3 seasons and what hints did it gave us and which not.

pre-2004 tests
BAR was flying during winter and they indeed had a solid season.
McLaren was struggling and it later proved to be serious.
Renault proved to be competitive in spite of the departure of Gascoyne.
Toyota was struggling.

Winter tests did not indicate that Ferrari would start dominating. It also didn't show that Williams would be struggling that much (although in the first races they were 2-3rd fastest, only Ferrari was so much ahead, which made them to look poor).

pre-2005 tests
A trio - Renault, McLaren & Ferrari - became title favourites. Later only Ferrari dropped out of that contention.
BAR was struggling and with a good reason.
RBR showed that they might surprise.

Tests didn't indicate Toyota's good form at the start of the season and as mentioned - Ferrari's fall.

pre-2006 tests
Renault was the favourite
McLaren had problems and tests showed that they'll probably drop out of title contention. So it proved.
Ferrari had slight problems at the end of winter testing, but for their own sake they got over them quite quickly at the start of the season (in Malaysia and Australia they were still struggling)
Toyota was struggling
RBR was struggling
Williams was quick and indeed in the first races they were pretty competitive

Tests didn't indicate Honda's true form. Or to said correctly - they were quick only on one lap (as during the tests), but couldn't maintain their pace during the race distance (Button qualified into Top3 in the first 4 races) - so their race pace was unpredictable.

So in conclusion...
1) Most teams' form at least for the start of the season (you never know, how someone develops during the season!) can be predicted, if they are predicted wisely and different circumstances are taken into account.
2) As you see, it's toughest to predict Ferrari's form. Most wrong predictions have been related with them. The reason is that they spend a lot of testing time privately at Fiorano, especially the last weeks before the first GP, therefore their real form is a bit hidden before the start.

Last year at the same time Honda was topping times at Valencia, Renault and Ferrari were also close to the top. McLaren and Toyota were struggling.

At the moment it's of course early and we have more than a month to go. But at least we have got a hint, what is anyone's starting point after new car launches. Let's see, what is going to happen in future and how much anyone can improve before 18.03.

So much about comparisons. If you'd like, you may make some conclusions on your own as well.


Nice post!

Basically tells us that teams do play funny buggers in the pre-season from time to time.

Tells us to expect at least one team, if not two, to be considerably better than their testing.

Im still waiting to see what RBR has install. Personallly, im quite excited. Perhaps im just buying into the hype too much, but that will soon be discovered for right or wrong.

Please please please run the real aero in tomorrows testing!

[RJL25]

Please please please run the real aero in tomorrows testing!

I agree! I wanna see what this RB3 is really capable of. If you noticed in valencia they turned very few laps, especially when compared to mclaren, which kinda tells me that they where just generally piss-farting around doing system checks and evaluation work. It should also be noted that this was their first real test of the new car, whereas others like mclaren, BMW and ferrari had all done atleast 1 test before this one, so obviously those guys would have been a bit more advanced with their programs then RBR.

Hopefully in the next test they will get serious and we can see whats what

[Ari]

I agree! I wanna see what this RB3 is really capable of. If you noticed in valencia they turned very few laps, especially when compared to mclaren, which kinda tells me that they where just generally piss-farting around doing system checks and evaluation work. It should also be noted that this was their first real test of the new car, whereas others like mclaren, BMW and ferrari had all done atleast 1 test before this one, so obviously those guys would have been a bit more advanced with their programs then RBR.

Hopefully in the next test they will get serious and we can see whats what

I'm quietly confident they will. ;)

[leopard]

If Kimi loses to Alonso this year, I hope that he won't join JPM in NASCAR...

so where is the place to go? :D

[miksu]

so where is the place to go? :D

WRC ;)