Fix the Indy 500

[Rex Monaco]

The Indy 500 used to be a race where manufacturers could build a one off entry in an attempt a win (what was once) one of the most prestigous races in the world.

The rule changes at Indy during the last 12 years have removed that possibility and in turn, have diminished it's prestige in global motorsports.

For this series to attract new engine manufacturers and grow in popularity, they need to change back to the day when Indy was a place of competition, innovation and yes, even a place of bending the rules.

There's a reason why Bonneville is still relevant to the manufacturers. They can lay claim to having the fastest hybrid or diesel or electric car.

This is the same reason why Le Mans is still relevant.

Hyundai might not care about winning the ICS championship. But they might like a win at Indy in their resume. A win that would mean much more if 25% of the field were something other than Honda's.

Spec racing is NASCAR. And it is at the heart of what is ruining NASCAR. So why would any series seeking to differintiate itself in the marketplace follow a failing strategy?

Diversity in the entrants is what built Indy into the prestigous race it once was. Only diversity will restore that prestige.

This goes beyond a new engine package for the ICS. The rules for the Indy 500 need to look back in order to move forward so that the embarrasment of the last 12 years can be put way behind it.

Until then, the Indy 500 is a race on the sechedule just like any other race. It just happens to be run at a place that is historical because of what was done before. But history can just as easily replace it, if it's place in history isn't carefully guarded.

That's my opinion anyway.

[anthonyvop]

Rex I agree but it isn't going to happen.
There isn't enough money out there and the return in ivestment doesn't justify the cost.

To build a car to run just the Indy 500 would cost Millions of $$$ to design, build and develop. Even then they would be at a disadvantage to teams that run the whole series and get all the development info and practice.

BTW When was the last time a totally one off built chassis/engine package won the Indy 500?

[JSH]

Everyone keeps talking about getting back to the roots of Indy.. Front engined roadsters and all that crap...

But if you see the video they show at the Indy museum, it talks about how manufacturers used to come to Indy to test new vehicles and technologies.

So to me, the race car that has the most in common with the original intent of the Indy500 is a Lemans Prototype.

I know.. I know.. thats too much thinking out of the box... I'll shut up now. :p :

[Rex Monaco]

Rex I agree but it isn't going to happen.
There isn't enough money out there and the return in ivestment doesn't justify the cost.

To build a car to run just the Indy 500 would cost Millions of $$$ to design, build and develop. Even then they would be at a disadvantage to teams that run the whole series and get all the development info and practice.

BTW When was the last time a totally one off built chassis/engine package won the Indy 500?

Once the rules change, it probably wouldn't happen for several years. But if the rules do not change, it will never happen. It took 12 years to break it. It will take that or more to fix it.

And while a chassis/engine combo would be ideal, a new engine rule is all that is really required to put Indy back to the place where manufacturers place it on their radar.

When is the last time someone other than Audi won at Le Mans?

When is not what will challenge engineers. How is what challenges them. Put the how back into the rules, and the challenge will bring back the prestige of the Indy 500.

[MAX_THRUST]

I agree with both of you. The problem is as well that the series is struggling since the split and now merger, so a spec series is what we have. Idealy you want to make it more appealing to the small time constructor who wants to try and make a name for them self, sadly though the small time constructor needs a big time cheque to make it happen and which top team would risk running with them? Its a shame because you are right, however it isn't the end of the world and the series is still going through difficult times even just getting some of the fans back. A lot of us are gone because we can't see the event and the new TV package in the US may loose more fans.

If we could turn the clock back to 1995 then maybe we could convince the monkeys that started throwing c*** at each other to act a little more civil.

[Rex Monaco]

So to me, the race car that has the most in common with the original intent of the Indy500 is a Lemans Prototype.

Adopt the same engine rules and there is where you could save a manufacturer on the development costs. They could compete for a win at Le Man and add the Indy 500 for a few dollars more.

[MAX_THRUST]

Try different fuels, different engines, but then someone will be moaning that car A is so much faster than car B or C it isn't fair.

TEll them go buy Car A, then you have spiralling costs and that is what TG didn't want when he started the IRL. We'd have 20 cars instead of 26 all season possibly....It worked in CART for a while till TG got Honda and Toyota to jump ship, then everything collapsed really. Chasis went down to two, and to one engine supplier.

[MAX_THRUST]

Rules which are more open to interpretation and not to surpress development is a good idea, but even the ACO at Lemans want the P2 classes to be made slower.

[chuck34]

Rex, in principal I agree with you. But at this point I think that having an open sort of rules package would kill the whole thing. Cost containment is the name of the game right now, like it or not.

Just look at the ALMS. They are completely open. But what if Audi decides to pull out of P1. Conventional wisdom says the whole thing implodes. I happen to think that is wrong and that a buch of "privateers" will step up, but my opinion doesn't really count for much. So they will do anything in their power to keep Audi around. Pretty much the same situation with IRL/Honda

[MAX_THRUST]

The same with F1 if all the manufactures got out then the privateers would come back, the series would begin to pick up again with new developments, but as soon as you allow the big companies back they want to control it, it becomes their big marketing tool, and experiment. Sadly though we don't seem to be getting much experimenting. Even Penske doesn't do anything to exciting with his cars.......

[chuck34]

Max, it isn't that Penske doesn't want to do anything exciting with his car, it's that he can't per rules. Development is a double edged sword. Sure it would be cool to see Penske do some radical stuff, but that costs money. So everyone has to spend money to keep up. Pretty soon the RLR's, and Panther's of the world dry up and go away.

[Rex Monaco]

My post was dealing with the Indy 500 being run under a different set of rules than the ICS series itself, as it once was, so as to bring manufacturers interest back to Indy which will hopefully trickle down to the series.

I don't have an issue with strict engine rules for the series, although I don't think leases or requirements to offer engines to everyone has ever ensured that the field was level.

But Indy should be a single event. It's a points race for ICS. But it should also be an event that manufacturers all over the world want to win.

Toyota and Honda chased after wins to garner prestige and make their place in motorsports history. The Koreans, Chinese, Indians and others will likely do the same. Others will revisit those historic venues to renew their images. Indy should make sure that they are known as one of the prestigous races that allows this to happen.

[garyshell]

Adopt the same engine rules and there is where you could save a manufacturer on the development costs. They could compete for a win at Le Man and add the Indy 500 for a few dollars more.

Yep, it would only cost a FEW dollars more to develop an open wheel chassis from the Le Mans prototype one. Ridiculous.

And since you have such a penchant for correcting other's spelling mistakes it is "Le Mans" not "Le Man".

Gary

[garyshell]

My post was dealing with the Indy 500 being run under a different set of rules than the ICS series itself, as it once was, so as to bring manufacturers interest back to Indy which will hopefully trickle down to the series.

I don't have an issue with strict engine rules for the series, although I don't think leases or requirements to offer engines to everyone has ever ensured that the field was level.

But Indy should be a single event. It's a points race for ICS. But it should also be an event that manufacturers all over the world want to win.

Toyota and Honda chased after wins to garner prestige and make their place in motorsports history. The Koreans, Chinese, Indians and others will likely do the same. Others will revisit those historic venues to renew their images. Indy should make sure that they are known as one of the prestigous races that allows this to happen.

Now THAT idea I can get behind!!!!!

I agree that there ought to be a different set of rules, more open ones, for the Indy 500. I think it would do a couple of things. First, it would foster some innovation and second it would be a way for some manufacturers and/or teams to put thier toe in the water.

Nice idea Rex!!!

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Adopt the same engine rules and there is where you could save a manufacturer on the development costs. They could compete for a win at Le Man and add the Indy 500 for a few dollars more.


Yep, it would only cost a FEW dollars more to develop an open wheel chassis from the Le Mans prototype one. Ridiculous.

When you reread my post and fully comprehend it, then tell me why it's ridiculous to think that a common engine formula with any series wouldn't save on development costs?

[anthonyvop]

When you reread my post and fully comprehend it, then tell me why it's ridiculous to think that a common engine formula with any series wouldn't save on development costs?
Easy.
If a manufacturer enters the series they are going to do it to win so they are going to spend money.

F-1 has a common engine formula do you think they have controled costs. They have even frozen engine development and most of the engine makers spend more money on their engines in one year that the combined budget of almost all the teams in the ICS.

[Rex Monaco]

Easy.
If a manufacturer enters the series they are going to do it to win so they are going to spend money.

You are right. Manufacturers are in racing to win. And we want them to join the ICS with the goal to win. So the way that the ICS can help manufacturers contain costs is by allowing them to spread their egnine development budget out amongst two or more series.

Is it cheaper for Honda to develop an engine for the ICS and Grand Am? Or would it be cheaper for Honda to develop an engine that could be used in both the ICS and Grand Am?

[Rex Monaco]

F-1 has a common engine formula do you think they have controled costs. They have even frozen engine development and most of the engine makers spend more money on their engines in one year that the combined budget of almost all the teams in the ICS.

And what other series does F1 share this common engine formula with?

[anthonyvop]

You are right. Manufacturers are in racing to win. And we want them to join the ICS with the goal to win. So the way that the ICS can help manufacturers contain costs is by allowing them to spread their egnine development budget out amongst two or more series.

Is it cheaper for Honda to develop an engine for the ICS and Grand Am? Or would it be cheaper for Honda to develop an engine that could be used in both the ICS and Grand Am?

Honda doesn't race in the Grand-Am. They race in the ALMS under the acura banner.
Even if they did they are 2 different animals. The Honda in the ICS is a motor that is optimised for Oval racing(Maintaining High Revs for long Periods, a narrow power band) The Acura motor in the ALMS is designed for a wide power band and a lot of low end grunt.
The LMP Acura's are 100's of pounds heavier than an ICS car and are rated at less HP yet their times on Road courses are close to if not equal to an ICS car.
Put the Acura LMP motor in a ICS car on an oval and it would be significantly slower and then blow up.

If they built an engine for both it would be a compromise and not ideal for either series.

[Rex Monaco]

If they built an engine for both it would be a compromise and not ideal for either series.

I'm not an engineer, so I'll take you word on that. Couldn't they share blocks heads and intakes, even if they have different cams and are mapped differently?

And does that also mean that the ICS oval engine is also not suitable for the ICS street and road coarses they race on?

[Rex Monaco]

Honda doesn't race in the Grand-Am.

Actually they do, but in the ST class in the Grand-Am Koni Challenge and not the Grand-Am Rolex Sports Car Series. So my bad.

[call_me_andrew]

One-offs don't work for drivers or manufacturers anymore. It's not the rules that are the problem, it's just the way racing is in the 21st century. If (insert the name of any Formula 1 driver here) wanted to race at the Indy 500 in 2009, do you really think he would have a chance of winning? Of course not! With no oval expierience, he'll be lucky if he beats Milka Duno.

The same would apply to a manufacturer. You don't go to a major race with the intention of throwing crap at a wall and documenting what sticks. That's what the rest of the season is for. Audi does well at Le Mans because they race at Sebring. You can't win Indy until you win Kentucky, Motegi, Long Beach, or any of the other IndyCar races. You wouldn't vote Kat Swift for President, and you wouldn't take an unproven car to Indianapolis.

Indianapolis and Le Mans aren't proving grounds anymore. They're where you go to put your best foot forward. The rest of the season is the proving ground. Now I'll admit that the track was constructed as a testing ground for the Indana based automobile manufactuers. But they're all gone now, and most (if not all) of the manufacturers in the world own their own test tracks.

[SportscarBruce]

Everyone keeps talking about getting back to the roots of Indy.. Front engined roadsters and all that crap...

But if you see the video they show at the Indy museum, it talks about how manufacturers used to come to Indy to test new vehicles and technologies.

So to me, the race car that has the most in common with the original intent of the Indy500 is a Lemans Prototype.

After IMSA's downfall conventional wisdom as voiced by sportscar racing's old guard (along with a few journalist) stated this; direct manufacturer to manufacturer competition was simply too expensive and difficult to control. Plus there was the ACO to contend with, past experience stated no American could hope to work in good faith with the French.

These old-guard types laughed as Don Panoz departed their cozy organization and dared to revive Le Mans-style sports car competition. Dr. Don proved them wrong. He proved firm, competent management plus international business skill matters more than mere records of participation or family credentials.

Granted the P1 and GT-1 categories has seen it's share of short or single-make fields, but the series has worked through or around these issues. It did so without swaying to pressures applied by major players. Also noteworthy is the ALMS brand of track officiating, strict with no exceptions. And so the result speaks for itself; ALMS is a solid entity that has grown steadly every year since inception.

And so come the question; if ALMS can do it why can't IndyCar? I believe that question has already been answered. IndyCar's business culture must move itself closer to the ALMS model and away from its overly political, good ol' boy past...

[ShiftingGears]

Easy.
If a manufacturer enters the series they are going to do it to win so they are going to spend money.

:up:




Someone needs to fix the IRL first. Then the Indy 500.

[DanicaFan]

Well, just remember there are talks now as of 2011 where there may be multiple engine manufacturers and turbos. Let's wait until then and see.

Oh, and the Indy 500 and Indy Car has Danica, doesnt get any better than that. :D

[MAX_THRUST]

the only problem with different rules for the indy 500, and I agree it is a good idea, those same rules often allowed drivers like Dennis Vitollo in to the field with little or no experience.

[MAX_THRUST]

Remember the Merc Ilmor engines at Indy, then the following year Penske didn't qualify, I think?????

What was so special about the Ilmor engines I can't remember....?

[anthonyvop]

Remember the Merc Ilmor engines at Indy, then the following year Penske didn't qualify, I think?????

What was so special about the Ilmor engines I can't remember....?
It was a pushrod engine. Penske found the loophole that allowed higher HP in a pushrod motor.

[Chris R]

I am not sure manufacturer involvement in the Indy 500 is nearly a important to the heritage to the race as many seem to think. In the very early days it might have been - but in the very early days someone like Roger Penske might have owned a car company too - instead of dealing with corporate car companies you were talking about companies owned and operated by individuals.... Ray Harroun was actually (someone correct me if I am wrong) - the chief designer/engineer for Marmon - it would sort of be like Chris Bangle driving the BMW entry in the 500..... The scale was completely different....

The times that are widely acknowledged as the "Golden Ages" of AOWR were basically formula car eras where one make pretty much dominated. First you had the Miller Dynasty and later the roadster era. The cars of the eras (at least the winners) were all pretty much identical with very subtle changes over time. You had more diversity through the field but not in the winners. I would argue that the thing that manufacturers served for was cannon fodder - Ford, Studebaker,Cummins, Ferrari etc all got eaten alive by the customer formula cars.

Even the CART era (the third Golden Age) was usually dominated by one chassis/engine combo at a time and generally over time - true diversity in CART was just becoming interesting and competitive when the split happened. Other than that, with few exceptions, diversity in cars and engines was more of a curiosity and ultimately a back-door tool to prove that the current "spec car" was the best....

That being said - I am all for more engines and chassis - but lets not forget that the grass is not necessarily any greener.. Open the doors to more options and one of them will still rise to the top.....

[SarahFan]

develop a formula where the competitors are flirting with a new track record every year



I know thats much MUCH harder than my typing it on my keyboard.... but that should be the goal when new chassis and engines rules are announced

[garyshell]

develop a formula where the competitors are flirting with a new track record every year



I know thats much MUCH harder than my typing it on my keyboard.... but that should be the goal when new chassis and engines rules are announced


What a REALLY, REALLY BAD idea!!!! What are you going to do when the cars eventually reach 250 MPH, then 300 MPH? Close all the lower grandstands? Move the fans off sight and have them watch by closed circuit TV? Nope, sorry that idea is a non-starter for obvious safety reasons.

Gary

[indycool]

Times have changed. We had two series for 12 years, for one thing, and now we're back to one.

Several manufacturers were involved in a recent IRL-called meeting discussing rules for 2010 and beyond and given the opportunity to talk about what interested them. Honda is in, but wants the competition. So that, now with one series again, is "in play."

The "500" is still selling speed. Indeed, cars qualify and race there faster than any other race in the world. But it has see-sawed for 30 years as teams find ways under rules to gain speed and rules are then designed to slow cars down for safety. The idea of a "new track record" is not gonna happen. The rules aren't going to allow anything to run 238 as Luyendyk did.

The late Jim Malloy was caught in a backstretch speed trap at around 240 in the early '70s at Indy, long before aerodynamics became a big part of what was going on. That particular figure stood for years.

They are still selling speed and history at Indy, it's the longest oval race in the world at the world's largest seating facility and it dates back to 1911. Manufacturers which participate are trying to go to Victory Lane there for the prestige of those things in front of a big audience representing those things. With one series, it is likely that OVER TIME, others will participate.

[harvick#1]

When is the last time someone other than Audi won at Le Mans?


this is different though, Audi has won the event as the favorites (2000,01,02,04,06,07) and the underdogs (2005,08)

plus, Audi only ran 3 cars out of the 55 car field, its not like Audi had half the field.

Porsche did the same thing in the 80's they dominated also. the teams and companies strive to make a more powerful, reliable, and more useful racecar.

Indy is spec racing with 1 engine manufactor and 1 chassis.

but comparing Indy to Le Mans is apples to oranges

[SarahFan]

What a REALLY, REALLY BAD idea!!!! What are you going to do when the cars eventually reach 250 MPH, then 300 MPH? Close all the lower grandstands? Move the fans off sight and have them watch by closed circuit TV? Nope, sorry that idea is a non-starter for obvious safety reasons.

Gary

its a good thing the powers that be felt differntly the past century


I thought racing was about speed

[indycool]

The powers that be have NOT thought that throughout the past century.

Yes, it is the responsibility of teams and manufacturers to find speed. It is the responsibility of sanctioning body and tracks for safety. Read my previous post. For the past 30-plus years, they have been slowing down cars at Indy as teams and technology and manufacturers find ways to build speed back up. It is the nature of the beast today and has been for many years.

In drag racing today, when they're now running more than 300 miles an hour in the quarter, there is a safety concern being addressed about the length of runoff areas and I think we will see those extended very soon.

[garyshell]

its a good thing the powers that be felt differntly the past century


I thought racing was about speed

No, thankfully they (and their insurance underwriters) realized that racing is not about ULTIMATE speed. Do you really want to see an Indy car going 300 MPH at 16th and Georgetown? Do you want your family sitting in the lower grandstands while it does?

Come on Ken, you seem like a reasonable person. But this idea is just plain STUPID. The drivers can't chase a new track record year after year. It would not be safe.

Gary

[-Helix-]

Pipe dreams are nice to have. But so is a sense of reality.

Lets hope TG waves his magic wand and changes how the world works.

Seriously though. The war just ended a few months ago, people. Give it some time.

[Rex Monaco]

Indy is spec racing with 1 engine manufactor and 1 chassis.

but comparing Indy to Le Mans is apples to oranges

Sure, Indy is now an all Honda spec series. But it wasn't always that way.

And back when it wasn't a spec series, Indy was just as prestigous for a manufacturer to win as Le Mans.

That's what initially brought Toyota and Honda to CART. The chance to add an Indy win to their racing resume.

[indycool]

Unless I misinterpret Harvick's post, Le Mans and Indy are, indeed, apples to oranges. They are two totally different kinds of events/races, each with their own legacy, customs, traditions, etc.

[weeflyonthewall]

Well, just remember there are talks now as of 2011 where there may be multiple engine manufacturers and turbos. Let's wait until then and see.

Oh, and the Indy 500 and Indy Car has Danica, doesnt get any better than that. :D

Are we talking about Indy and the ICS? They make it sound more complicated than planning for a quadrennial Olympics. They better pull out all the stops to get more engine manufacturers in the 2010 race and get rid of those butt ugly Dallaras. Panoz, Swift, and few other domestic chassis manufacturers will step up given the chance. NO MORE IMPORTED CHASSIS FOR US BASED OWR!

[indycool]

Or what? The sky is going to fall?

[SarahFan]

No, thankfully they (and their insurance underwriters) realized that racing is not about ULTIMATE speed. Do you really want to see an Indy car going 300 MPH at 16th and Georgetown? Do you want your family sitting in the lower grandstands while it does?

Come on Ken, you seem like a reasonable person. But this idea is just plain STUPID. The drivers can't chase a new track record year after year. It would not be safe.

Gary


first off ...ACTUALLY READ MY POST.....I said flirting with a new track record

and I don't come at this with closed eyes.... I was at Fontana when Gil set the closed coarse record.... and when Greg Moore Died.....

the highest of highs and the lowest of lows

second off.....Aries 238 was set prior to both wheel tethers and the SAFER barrier.... so 238 today would be safer than it was then..

and back to my saying flirting with a new track record...lets say it gets broken by 1 mile an hour every other year.... heck it would take 20+ yeras to get to 250... ...

and my biggest reason for advocating flirting with a new track record is the attention it brings to both the speedway and the I500....and don't think for a second that doesn't/wont rub off to viewership and sponsorship come raceday.....which in turn will carryover to the rest of the season....

give the casual fan a reason to pay attention throughout the month.... and Pole and raceday attendance as well as viewership will increase......period..

want to get LB and Chicago's ratings up to 2.0....then get pole day to 6.0 and raceday to 9.0....

IC makes a great point about NHRA..... speeds increase.... so adapt.... increase the run off

IndyCAR.... speeds increase.... raise the catch fence and increase the width of the SAFER.... install some plexiglass or netting.... I'm not sure the exact answer..... but don't dumbdown the formula


*again.... I'm sure developing a formula that flirts with a new track record with only increasing by small amounts is infantly harder than my typing about it.....that falls on the shoulders of engineers and rules makers much smarter than me..... but make no mistake.....a new track record at INDY would garner attention.... and the sport desperatly needs more fans... new and old to tune in for the first time, or back in now that the split is over

[SarahFan]

The "500" is still selling speed. .


^^^

[indycool]

Ken, guess my response is the same as it is on the other forum.

Yes, track record possibilities, particularly "milestone" ones like 150, 200 miles an hour, in history at Indy were very promotable and significant.

No, we're not going to see 250 at Indy. Think it will be a long while before they're allowed to even approach Luyendyk's 238, if ever. It just isn't safe.

When I say selling speed, selling 225, faster than anyone races on a closed course in the world, that's selling speed.

[Chris R]

Th Olympics provide a good measure of what "flirting with a new record" might be - if they bump it up by a tenth of a second or two every year or two it'll be a long time coming before we hit 250 and by then 250 might be more manageable....

I think both Ken and Gary have good points about this issue and perhaps we need to see some potential for new records - it gives the public the impression the sport is moving forward... however, we cannot move in leap and bounds and safety must be a big part of any increases in speed... I fear if the cars are managed to a point they become just big rolling billboards like NASCAR that a very important part of AOWR will be lost (just as a very important part of NASCAR has been lost as far as I am concerned)...

with modern timing technology a record can be 100th of a second a lap faster - that is what we need to aim for if the cars are allowed to get faster....

[garyshell]

Personally, I'd be happy if they'd take a lot of the aero out of the cars. Let the straight speeds go back up but lower the cornering speeds. That would give you approximately the same lap times; more engine development; and increase the driver skill needed in the corners. A much better show and real passes.


Amen. AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. :andrea:

Oh, did I forget to say I fully agree with this 1000%?

Gary

[indycool]

Chris, you apparently don't remember back in the '80s when NASCAR drivers were routinely qualifying at more than 200 at Daytona and Talladega and restrictor plates finally became the safety answer, as popoff valves were initially in the Indy cars.

As speeds come back higher, sanctioning bodies seem to allow them to, to a given point, usually a bad accident in which they take a long look. In NASCAR's case, it was Bobby Allison tearing up the catch fence along the frontstretch at Talladega. A renewed emphasis then is placed on safety rather than speed.

You are not going to make a magic leap from 225-230 to 237.999 at Indy in one master stroke. You could, but my sense is that sanctioning bodies want to stay ahead of the game on safety, as much as humanly known and possible, before they ever allow speeds to climb sharply again.

I don't know why this is even an issue with some and I don't even understand why this thread exists. The safety equation is years and years of studying accidents and injuries, various pieces of race cars and their strength, location and condition, angles, etc.

To the best of their abilities, sanctioning bodies are going to take all steps possible to keep people safe, and that includes drivers and crews and keeping cars out of grandstands. Already, at some ovals, some lower rows of grandstand are blocked off and unused for Indy cars.

And with all that has been done with cockpit reconstruction, catch-fencing rethinking, SAFER barriers and the rest, tragedy can still happen in any form of racing, at any track, and that is one thing neither the public nor the racing fraternity should ever forget.

[SarahFan]

Ken, guess my response is the same as it is on the other forum.

Yes, track record possibilities, particularly "milestone" ones like 150, 200 miles an hour, in history at Indy were very promotable and significant.

No, we're not going to see 250 at Indy. Think it will be a long while before they're allowed to even approach Luyendyk's 238, if ever. It just isn't safe.

When I say selling speed, selling 225, faster than anyone races on a closed course in the world, that's selling speed.


why was it acceptable then and not now?

[indycool]

When technology and the teams get ahead of safe speeds, rulesmakers knock 'em down. When teams and technology bring speeds back up, rulesmakers knock 'em down again.

You will notice in the link below that between 1971 and 1972, the pole speed at Indy increased by 17 miles an hour. I might add that all 33 qualifiers were faster than the 1971 pole speed in 1972. Then rulesmakers knocked it down.

As you can see, it's been up and down pretty much ever since or pretty close to the same, until Brayton's 233 for the pole in '96, when Luyendyk ran a lap at 238. From then on, it's been in the same frame.

http://www.indy500.com/images/stats/pdfs/pole_position_winners.pdf

[SarahFan]

When technology and the teams get ahead of safe speeds, rulesmakers knock 'em down. When teams and technology bring speeds back up, rulesmakers knock 'em down again.

You will notice in the link below that between 1971 and 1972, the pole speed at Indy increased by 17 miles an hour. I might add that all 33 qualifiers were faster than the 1971 pole speed in 1972. Then rulesmakers knocked it down.

As you can see, it's been up and down pretty much ever since or pretty close to the same, until Brayton's 233 for the pole in '96, when Luyendyk ran a lap at 238. From then on, it's been in the same frame.

http://www.indy500.com/images/stats/pdfs/pole_position_winners.pdf


so it wasn't acceptable.....?

[Miatanut]

Personally, I'd be happy if they'd take a lot of the aero out of the cars. Let the straight speeds go back up but lower the cornering speeds. That would give you approximately the same lap times; more engine development; and increase the driver skill needed in the corners. A much better show and real passes.

An opinion held by many long-term, hardcore racing fans.

Any chance they will listen?

[ShiftingGears]

An opinion held by many long-term, hardcore racing fans.

Any chance they will listen?

I don't think Tony George is that clever.

[fan-veteran]

IMO - the first issue that must be fixed (and it had to be fixed for past years) is the formation of rubber marbles/dirt on the outer part of the corners!!! This year (2008) and previous year (2007) the formation of such rubbish was a brute fact and IMO it almost ruined the race (not to mention safety issues)!!! I think all of you have noticed this slippery condition and it is absolutely inadmissible! Correct me if i'm wrong.

In relation to speed - the current 225 mph is good, if they only could hit top speeds above 230 mph during the race day :)

[Rex Monaco]

...I don't even understand why this thread exists

Read the first post, it's self-explanatory.

[Rex Monaco]

Unless I misinterpret Harvick's post, Le Mans and Indy are, indeed, apples to oranges. They are two totally different kinds of events/races, each with their own legacy, customs, traditions, etc.

And if I throw Bonneville into the mix I've introduced an apples to oranges to grapefruit comparison. But you are missing the central theme that they are all good fruit that auto manufacturers want to eat.

2 of them continue to hold something in common. Something that Indy has now left behind.

Auto manufacuters still view a record speed at Bonneville or win (overall or class) at Le Mans to be a display of their companies engineering expertise (even if they seek outside help to accomplish it).

So when I compare Indy to Le Mans or Bonneville, it's comparing what success at one of those venues mean to the automotive companies. And it's comparing the opportunities, BECAUSE OF THE RULES, that are available to automakers to chase those successes.

The Pikes Peak Hill Climb also has that anyone can come and run spirit too. But it's not currently on the fans or the manufacturers radar screens.

Indy lost that spirit. And because of that, it now risks losing it's soul.

[indycool]

Not true. Its experimentation with ethanol and SAFER barriers and the like are continued testing that Indy is noted for.

In its recent meeting with manufacturers, they were asked about rules for the future that they would like to see to test their technology and go forward. Several said "tell me more."

They seem to be preparing to institute exactly what you seem to want....until the next anti-IRL issue comes along.

[Rex Monaco]

They seem to be preparing to institute exactly what you seem to want....

So they are preparing to open the Indy 500 back up and let any auto manufacturer or engine builder who builds an engine to the ICS specs compete at Indy without a requirement to compete in the ICS or supply other teams with these engines?

Can you please provide me with the link?

[garyshell]

Not true. Its experimentation with ethanol and SAFER barriers and the like are continued testing that Indy is noted for.

In its recent meeting with manufacturers, they were asked about rules for the future that they would like to see to test their technology and go forward. Several said "tell me more."

They seem to be preparing to institute exactly what you seem to want....until the next anti-IRL issue comes along.


So they are preparing to open the Indy 500 back up and let any auto manufacturer or engine builder who builds an engine to the ICS specs compete at Indy without a requirement to compete in the ICS or supply other teams with these engines?

Can you please provide me with the link?

IC, I have to say I think Rex is on the money with this. The prestige that the manufacturers enjoyed around Indy were when anyone could do a one off engine for the 500 as long as it met the rules. At that time there were no stupid rules about supplying multiple teams or requirements for running other races etc. It seems to me if the ICS would open up the 500 like that again, they might start to garner the attention of several players. That attention could then be parlayed into the possibility of supplying more teams and more races.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

....until the next anti-IRL issue comes along.

This issue didn't just come along. And this issue is why I am an not numbered amongst the IRLista's.

An all Honda spec race at the Indianapolis Motorspeedway, does not make it the Indy 500. It's the Honda 500 at Indy.

And if Toyota, Ford and GM join tomorrow but the rules exclude Judd, Cosworth, Chery or Tata from making a run at Indy, it's a 500 mile ICS race at the Indianapolis Motorspeedway.

[Rex Monaco]

IC, I have to say I think Rex is on the money with this. The prestige that the manufacturers enjoyed around Indy were when anyone could do a one off engine for the 500 as long as it met the rules. At that time there were no stupid rules about supplying multiple teams or requirements for running other races etc. It seems to me if the ICS would open up the 500 like that again, they might start to garner the attention of several players. That attention could then be parlayed into the possibility of supplying more teams and more races.

Gary

Gary gets it!

[SarahFan]

....until the next anti-IRL issue comes along.

why is discussing the Biz aspect of the AOWR anti-IRL?


why has discussion about the direction of the sport been fair game the past 12 years yet now it's off limits?

[SarahFan]

Gary....do you post/read elsewhere?

there is an interesting thread with a poll at TF on this subject.....I'd be interested if you had seen/read it and your thoughts

[indycool]

Gary, the prestige manufacturers had around Indy they took to the rest of the circuit. Toyota and Honda sponsored events and both still do so.

But I also remember the days when Penske controlled the Chevy engine and who got it depended on making a deal with Roger or backing him in a board meeting or whatever as to who got the "hot tip" and who didn't. Do you remember when 33 Eagles started the "500" because it was the hot chassis? Do you remember when Roger sold all those PC-10s and John Paul Jr, beat him with one at Michigan?

Do you remember Aurora dominating the IRL to the extent Infiniti went away?

This has to be done carefully so everyone is inolved appropriately. It can't be just a "run what ya brung" to Indy and the H with the rest of the races.

[Rex Monaco]

It can't be just a "run what ya brung" to Indy and the H with the rest of the races.

That's how Indy was built, why tear it down?

[garyshell]

Gary....do you post/read elsewhere?

there is an interesting thread with a poll at TF on this subject.....I'd be interested if you had seen/read it and your thoughts


No, not at the moment. Just don't have the time to devote to more than one racing forum. But I have contemplated moving elsewhere because the message count here has fallen so low.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Barnhart expects no more than "three or four" to be involved when the new configuration hits the track, but Honda, the league's only current supplier, would be happy to have competition.

It is up to the league, Barnhart said, to determine how many participants there will be in 2011 so the manufacturers will know how many cars they will need to supply.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080825/FREE/308189881/1528/newsletter01

So let's say they limit the series to 24 participants. That leaves us with a 9 car deficit at Indy.

What would be more exciting than seeing a 'one off' engine manufacturer attempt to beat the 24 regulars and their 3 or 4 engine suppliers at their own game?

[indycool]

Why would that be good for the series?

[Rex Monaco]

Why would that be good for the series?

1. It would increase the hype surrounding Indy each year. This hype would translate into new fans and sponsors.

2. The manufacturers that participate at Indy could decide to stay in the series and the engine suppliers would increase. This would create more diversity in the field.

3. A diverse field of engines would garner even more hype and this hype would translate into more new fans and sponsors.

4. If Hyundai entered a one off (an engine they might buy and slap a label on) and won at Indy, it would be international news and a source of pride for Korea. This would create more international interest in Indy and the ICS.

5. And lastly, anything that is good for Indy is good for the series. Without Indy, the series would not exist.

[garyshell]

Why would that be good for the series?

Three simple words:

Publicity, publicity and publicity.

Gary

[call_me_andrew]

4. If Hyundai entered a one off (an engine they might buy and slap a label on) and won at Indy, it would be international news and a source of pride for Korea. This would create more international interest in Indy and the ICS.

But why would they enter a race they can't win? A one-off cannot win! You think Le Mans is a one off? You don't show up at Le Mans, you get invited to Le Mans after you win elsewhere. It's not an open garage, the comparison is hardly accurate. This plan makes as much sense as a Jamacian bobsled team.

http://www.runningmovies.com/image/CoolRunningsDVD.jpg

[garyshell]

But why would they enter a race they can't win? A one-off cannot win!

Hmmm, really? It worked for Roger Penske didn't it?

Gary

[Miatanut]

Why would that be good for the series?

Back in the USAC days Indy always had a formula incompatible with rest of the season, so the home-built guys could pursue their dream of wining Indy from all the pros, who would stick with the package they knew. The sport is heading back to it's roots, and this is completely by design. The whole notion of a "series" of races with their own independent identities and followings was a CART concept which represented a threat to Indy, leaving us where we are now.

In other words, it wouldn't necessarily be good for the "series", but it would be good for The Only Race That Really Matters, which the whole last 12 years was about defending. For some, "A rising tide (Indy) lifts all boats", so if Indy is healthier, the rest will follow.

[indycool]

Yes, Gary, it worked for Roger Penske.....but who else would spend the money to try it in that manner? And Andy Granatelli's turbine created more ink than Penske's Merc at its time in history.

Sorry, but I don't see nine one-offs (bumping?) at Indy happening unless they're extra cars from existing teams and I don't see it as THAT important in the publicity mix. I beg to differ that USAC had different spec rules for Indy than for the season when USAC sanctioned the entire season. USAC had different spec rules than CART on boost which allowed the Buicks to run, or the dearth of cars of recent years would've happened much earlier. CART did not want the Buicks to be competitive so it limited the Buicks to less boost than USAC did for Indy.

"Hype" for a lone Hyundai at Indy? The Koreans might be interested but they weren't in Ansan. It would get some hype as a one-off but I don't see multiple charters from Seoul coming over. Bombardier could probably build a turbine.

But the IRL has definite rules for manufacturers coming into the sport so someone DOESN'T blow into Indy and run off and hide. Penske's Merc went away after a season when the rules loophole was closed. Granatelli's turbine was strangled by rules after one year. The IRL wants the manufacturers around for the whole season and allow THAT competition to create hype...which it would, at about the same level, although in a different way, as a one-off at Indy.

[garyshell]

Yes, Gary, it worked for Roger Penske.....but who else would spend the money to try it in that manner? And Andy Granatelli's turbine created more ink than Penske's Merc at its time in history.

Sorry, but I don't see nine one-offs (bumping?) at Indy happening unless they're extra cars from existing teams and I don't see it as THAT important in the publicity mix. I beg to differ that USAC had different spec rules for Indy than for the season when USAC sanctioned the entire season. USAC had different spec rules than CART on boost which allowed the Buicks to run, or the dearth of cars of recent years would've happened much earlier. CART did not want the Buicks to be competitive so it limited the Buicks to less boost than USAC did for Indy.

"Hype" for a lone Hyundai at Indy? The Koreans might be interested but they weren't in Ansan. It would get some hype as a one-off but I don't see multiple charters from Seoul coming over. Bombardier could probably build a turbine.

But the IRL has definite rules for manufacturers coming into the sport so someone DOESN'T blow into Indy and run off and hide. Penske's Merc went away after a season when the rules loophole was closed. Granatelli's turbine was strangled by rules after one year. The IRL wants the manufacturers around for the whole season and allow THAT competition to create hype...which it would, at about the same level, although in a different way, as a one-off at Indy.


Who else would spend the money? That's a question that can't be answered, now can it, since none are ALLOWED to. Who knows who might be willing to try if allowed? I don't see nine either, never mentioned any such number. Where did that come from??? I would see one or two at most, in any given year.

I know that the IRL "wants the manufacturers around for the whole season", but the operative word there is "wants". I think allowing some manufacturers to dip their toe in the water would be a great idea ONCE there is more than one manufacturer in the series. I can see the point of not allowing it while Honda is the only player. You don't want to piss off your ONLY supplier with some one off taking away their bragging rights. Having just said that though I realize how ridiculous bragging rights are right now for Honda visa vie the 500. Nonetheless, no point waking the dragon with some upstart until you have at least one other player in the series who can supply engines should Honda pitch a hissy fit.

Gary

[indycool]

True, Gary, it can't be answered. Rex was the poster who mentioned the other nine, not you. And yes, I'd agree that one and maybe two radicals each year, if at all, could be expected.

I don't know the details of what is required of manufacturers to enter the series. But another meeting of the minds of manufacturers is scheduled for September. I agree you're not going to piss off Honda by allowing another alone. But if one or more manufacturers come in for the next go-round, under the rules of participation set forth, you can 't piss all of the current manufacturers off by allowing a "freebie", either.

It's just a different time and situation in history.

[Rex Monaco]

But why would they enter a race they can't win? A one-off cannot win!

With that attitude, why would anyone compete against Penske/Ganassi/AGR at all? At Indy or in the ICS? With no chance to win, why would anyone try?

Luckily people don't enter racing with that attitude. Or if they do, they keep it to themselves.

Do the rules at Indy change every year? Not very much, if at all. A commtted effort could see a team enter the Indy 500 over a few years. And with experience and sponsor money from the exposure, I don't see why a committed effort wouldn't have a real chance at winning.

A privateer probably couldn't afford to develop a new engine. They'd have to buy one off the shelf from one of the ICS suppliers.

But why not allow Hyundai, Porsche or Peugeot to make their own engine for shot at winning Indy? What harm does it do to the ICS or Indy?

And if a Porsche or Hyundai showed up with the money to win, don't you think they'd be able to hire an experienced capable driver and crew?

As for Le Mans entry rules, you can apply for an invitation. And I don't think they'd turn Porsche or even Hyundai away.

I'm not sure why you think it's a good idea for Indy to continue the recent policy of locking everyone out.

I don't see any harm to the series or to the event. The only problem I see is that it might take 5 or 10 years before a manufacturer views a win at Indy as being worth the expense. But that's the reality of todays situation after the failed experiment known as the split.

The series and the event are tarnished. It will take lots of spit and polish to restore them both. But Indy won't be restored if it merely remains an ICS race at a historic track, rather than the historic event it once was.

[Rex Monaco]

It's just a different time and situation in history.

History begins today. It took 12 years to tarnish Indy. So I don't expect it to become untarnished tomorrow with one rule change. That'll take time.

And since time doesn't stop, today is the day to decide to return the lustre back to the Indy 500.

Otherwise the race is no different than the Brickyard 400. It's just another series that holds another race at a historic track.

IMS will always be a historic track. But the Indy 500 has lost it's unique place in motorsports, and thus it has lost it's historic roots. It needs to return to them for the good of the track and the good of the series.

[Rex Monaco]

Who else would spend the money? That's a question that can't be answered, now can it, since none are ALLOWED to. Who knows who might be willing to try if allowed? I don't see nine either, never mentioned any such number. Where did that come from??? I would see one or two at most, in any given year.

I just want to clarify where the 9 came from.

The ICS is going to determine a limit on the number of participants for 2011 and beyond. I wouldn't expect it to be more than 24 or even 26 cars.

With Indy being open to 33 cars, that leaves a deficit of 7-9 cars needed to fill the grid. Anyone of those spots could be filled with a manufacturer seeking a win at Indy.

Would all 7-9 spots be filled by one-offs? Well technically, yes they would.

But would I expect all of them to be filled by a one off manufacturer? I never stated that would happen.

Even if 3 manufacturers showed up with 3 cars each, the likely hood of all 9 cars making the race is pretty low. But it would make qualifying much more exciting!

[indycool]

Rex, your post regarding the tarnishing of the Indy 500 is IYO....some, including myself, feel it's either not tarnished or whatever tarnish may have been there, with one series, it no longer applies.

[garyshell]

Rex, your post regarding the tarnishing of the Indy 500 is IYO....some, including myself, feel it's either not tarnished or whatever tarnish may have been there, with one series, it no longer applies.


However you want to polish it, the 500 does not have the same luster it had prior to the split. Getting back to one series is a start, no doubt, but some serious elbow grease needs to be applied before it can have the acclaim it once had. The number of sponsors, fans in the stands and on the couch tell the tale. We have progress, but the job is by no means done.

Gary

[indycool]

It's been taught by some to be hated for 12 years......that is the job that needs fixin'.......

[SarahFan]

It's been taught by some to be hated for 12 years......that is the job that needs fixin'.......

but I thought they were nothing more than an irellavant few?

I guess it depends on the discussion....!?

[garyshell]

It's been taught by some to be hated for 12 years......that is the job that needs fixin'.......


That is one of the jobs, but in my mind the least of them. Another is to restore the interest for the rest of the month of May. Mind you, I don't ever expect that to ever be fully accomplished. As has been said before here and elsewhere, there are a lot more things competing for folks attention now, so a packed front stretch on all qualifying weekends, carburtation (spelling?) day etc. are not going to happen. But more butts in seats on those days is part of that luster. Finally, a bigger TV audience is also part of this luster equation. The same situation with lots of competition for eyeballs applies here as it does for butts in seats above. But, again the same goal of a significant improvement is a necessity if we hope (and I do hope) to see the 500 return to its glory.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Another is to restore the interest for the rest of the month of May.

Gary

"it's a new track record"

[nigelred5]

"it's a new track record"


When was the last time we heard that at Indy?????

[SarahFan]

When was the last time we heard that at Indy?????


1996


and a poll at a very IRLcentric forum is running about 55% in favor of hearing it again

[Rex Monaco]

Rex, your post regarding the tarnishing of the Indy 500 is IYO....

It's not my opinion that the Coca-Cola 600 and the Daytona 500 both have higher ratings than the Indy 500. That's just part of the current reality on which I base my opinion.

[Rex Monaco]

It's been taught by some to be hated for 12 years......that is the job that needs fixin'.......

For some the war is over and the hard work now needs to be done to put AOWR back on top.

For others defending the failed experiment is much more important than facing reality.

[Rex Monaco]

When was the last time we heard that at Indy?????

Casey Mears qualifying for the Brickyard 400 in 2004? ;)

[indycool]

Gary, there are things that have been done while the race has been maligned by the loud but few ALREADY.

1. Season infield tickets are now being offered.
2. Concerts with respectable bands have been scheduled on key days.
3. Qualifying procedure was changed.
4. (Most important, I believe) was that Carb Day was moved from Thursday to Friday and is now huge with a concert and the Indy Lights race and the Pit Stop contest.
5. Spectator mounds have been built on the infield inside the backstretch and they were well-attended in May on Race Day.
6. The third turn infield has developed into a key spot for patrons, not quite a "Snake Pit" but a place to go and trams run all day to shuttle folks who want to go to the front straight seating from there.
7. The Versus deal will supposedly give more air time to qualifying.
8. Physically, the facilities now include a road course, a new pagoda as a race control tower and suites, a new media center, a new plaza behind the pagoda, a new catering facility and continued upgrading of the grandstands.

Rex, "failed experiment?" It's still standing.

[garyshell]

Gary, there are things that have been done while the race has been maligned by the loud but few ALREADY.

1. Season infield tickets are now being offered.
2. Concerts with respectable bands have been scheduled on key days.
3. Qualifying procedure was changed.
4. (Most important, I believe) was that Carb Day was moved from Thursday to Friday and is now huge with a concert and the Indy Lights race and the Pit Stop contest.
5. Spectator mounds have been built on the infield inside the backstretch and they were well-attended in May on Race Day.
6. The third turn infield has developed into a key spot for patrons, not quite a "Snake Pit" but a place to go and trams run all day to shuttle folks who want to go to the front straight seating from there.
7. The Versus deal will supposedly give more air time to qualifying.
8. Physically, the facilities now include a road course, a new pagoda as a race control tower and suites, a new media center, a new plaza behind the pagoda, a new catering facility and continued upgrading of the grandstands.

Rex, "failed experiment?" It's still standing.

I never meant to imply that nothing has been done, only that the job of restoring the luster is far from over.

Gary

[indycool]

Understand, and to an extent, I agree. But I don't think, now that it's one series, that it's that far off. There was a different atmosphere in May this year at Indy, much like the old days. The continuity of that, over time, plus what's being done all the time (website, too) as time changes and the Speedway changes with it, figures to do that. I'm not saying that 12 years of war is going to be removed from everyone's mind in one year, either.

[Rex Monaco]

Rex, "failed experiment?" It's still standing.

Well if they are still standing, then I guess the experiment was a huge success and Toyota leaving for NASCAR meant nothing.

The split tarnished the sport and the race and every non-partisan understands it. It's just the haters on both sides of the war that continue to stick to their tired party line.

[indycool]

Why does anyone hafta hate? It's one series. Full fields. No complaints on that from competitors or sponsors or tracks. Do you want the split back or something?

[Rex Monaco]

Gary, there are things that have been done while the race has been maligned by the loud but few ALREADY.

It's great that this historic track is making much needed improvements for the fans in attendance of the I500, BY400, F1, and the AMA. I'm sure F1 was the catalyst for most of these changes.

But the racerock style gimmicks are not what built the Indy 500. They weren't needed at the height of Indycar racing to draw crowds, even on carb day. And they also won't do anything to increase the TV ratings.

TV ratings is what the sponsors want to see rise before they make a commitment. And that won't be done by track improvements or rock concerts. The race is what they are sponsoring, and the race is what people tune in to watch on TV.

It's possible that the series can be built around the hype that once was the Indy 500. In doing so it might even come close to challenging NASCAR in popularity in the distant future. But it will never be Indy to those that were fans before CART or the split.

NASCAR left it's roots behind and everyone thinks that its much better today, don't they? ;)

[indycool]

Well, Rex, it's Indy to me and I've now seen 50 of them, plenty before CART was even born, so I'm one that your statement doesn't apply to.

[Rex Monaco]

Why does anyone hafta hate? It's one series. Full fields. No complaints on that from competitors or sponsors or tracks. Do you want the split back or something?

Ask yourself that. I offered an opinion on how the series and the race can regain it's tarnished luster. And in return you labeled me a hater because I dared to state the obvious.

[Rex Monaco]

Well, Rex, it's Indy to me...

And to me, it's the Honda 500 at Indy. They might as well be running at Fontana or Motegi.

[call_me_andrew]

With that attitude, why would anyone compete against Penske/Ganassi/AGR at all? At Indy or in the ICS? With no chance to win, why would anyone try?

Luckily people don't enter racing with that attitude. Or if they do, they keep it to themselves.

Do the rules at Indy change every year? Not very much, if at all. A commtted effort could see a team enter the Indy 500 over a few years. And with experience and sponsor money from the exposure, I don't see why a committed effort wouldn't have a real chance at winning.

A privateer probably couldn't afford to develop a new engine. They'd have to buy one off the shelf from one of the ICS suppliers.

But why not allow Hyundai, Porsche or Peugeot to make their own engine for shot at winning Indy? What harm does it do to the ICS or Indy?

And if a Porsche or Hyundai showed up with the money to win, don't you think they'd be able to hire an experienced capable driver and crew?

As for Le Mans entry rules, you can apply for an invitation. And I don't think they'd turn Porsche or even Hyundai away.

I'm not sure why you think it's a good idea for Indy to continue the recent policy of locking everyone out.

No one is competing with the big 3 right now. Technically, they're racing against each other on the track, but the reality is they're just trying to get enough exposure for their sponsors to keep racing. Not racing to win, but racing just because they want to race. And if they could make some money in the process, that would just be great.

No one is locked out! Honda doesn't have competition because about 9 years into the war, manufactuerers decided that they didn't want to touch AOWR with a 10 foot pole. Honda lost a game of hot potato. With just one series, AOWR doesn't look so bad anymore and that's why we're talking about turbos comming back.

Hyundai, Porsche or Peugeot are more than welcome to build a 3.5L V8 and enter it in all 2009 races. They're not locked out, they just don't want to show up.

Showing up at just one race a year in the hope of winning it in 5 years is just dumb. A car is only really tested in race conditions. Practice and free testing will never be better than an actual race. It's probably going to be 3 years before you build an engine that can go the distance, let alone win. It would be much more cost efficent to have the same technical regulations for the entire season so you can do 5 years of work in 1.

Audi races at Sebring to prepare them for Le Mans. 12 hours at Sebring will put more wear on a car than 24 hours at Le Mans. It wasn't until Peugeot tried to race at Sebring that running (not parked next to the finish line to kill time) at the end of Le Mans. Sebring, Motegi, Sears Point, Texas: these are the proving grounds. Le Mans and Indianpolis: these are where you take what you gather at proving grounds to put your best foot forward.

[Rex Monaco]

They're not locked out, they just don't want to show up.

Manufacturers cannot compete at Indy under the current rules. In the past they could. Some people think this is good for the sport. But what has it brought the sport? A Honda spec race at Indy.

[indycool]

Manufacturers can compete in the Indy Racing League, including Indy, under current rules, not Indy alone. There have been years when the entire Indy field has been composed of Gurney's Eagles and Offy, Cosworth or Chevy engines. Demean as you enjoy.

[Rex Monaco]

Manufacturers can compete in the Indy Racing League, including Indy, under current rules, not Indy alone.

Worse than that. They must make engines available to anyone in the ICS for the whole year in order for them to compete for a single win at Indy. That's not tradition. And that's not Indy.

[indycool]

Gee, then when did Offenhauser, Ford, Cosworth, Chevy, Aurora, etc. NOT do it.

[Miatanut]

Manufacturers can compete in the Indy Racing League, including Indy, under current rules, not Indy alone. There have been years when the entire Indy field has been composed of Gurney's Eagles and Offy, Cosworth or Chevy engines. Demean as you enjoy.

Are you talking about the Tony Hulman administration or the Tony George administration?

They have a couple themes in common, but for the most part, they are very different.

[indycool]

Csoworth anad Chevy came well after the Hulman administration. Yes, the administrations are different, much of it because the times are different.

[Chris R]

Gee, then when did Offenhauser, Ford, Cosworth, Chevy, Aurora, etc. NOT do it.

I think the current rules would exclude a "one-off" Indy motor - not that I think that matters - but if I understand correctly, Mercedes/Ilmor could not pull a "1994" under the current rules because that motor was an Indy special made just for Penske.... I also think that at different times most manufacturers engaged in making special motors for special teams and I think that might not be allowed under the current rules....

FWIW - I am not sure that excluding a manufacturer from just going after Indy is a bad thing for the sport or the manufacturer. If the Miller-Fords had been forced to do a couple of more races before Indy they might have discovered the steering problem. If Cummins had to run a races or two before Indy they would have found that the turbo was actually an early form of track cleaner and put the first racing air cleaner on the thing!! :) Imagine how different racing might be today if a laydown Cummins diesel roadster with a turbocharger had won the 1952 Indy 500.....??? :eek:

[Rex Monaco]

Gee, then when did Offenhauser, Ford, Cosworth, Chevy, Aurora, etc. NOT do it.

Evidently you do not know the difference between a CHOICE and a MANDATE.

If you allow the people to choose between Coke or Pepsi, and all the people choose Coke because they think it's better, then at least you've given them a choice.

If you mandate that the people MUST choose the only approved cola which is made by Coke, then you've locked Pepsi, Jones, RC, Shasta or any other cola company in the world out of the competition.

The former Soviet Union colllapsed under these rules. Sure you could get bread. But could you stand in that long line and buy Wonder bread?

And like the former Soviet Union, there are people who will willfully spread disinformation in order to further their party line.

Like it or not, modern motorsports is just a consumer product in the sports section of the marketplace. So whatever a series can do to gain the interest of the consumer is good for the series, the teams and, most importantly, for the sponsors.

[Rex Monaco]

I think the current rules would exclude a "one-off" Indy motor...

He knows that. He's just trying to change the subject because he also knows that this exclusionary rule is not how the prestige and the traditions of the Indy 500 were built.

[Rex Monaco]

...much of it because the times are different.

So the 20's were like the 30's which were like the 40's (except for the war) which were like the 50's which were like the 60's which were like the 70's which were like the 80's which were like the 90's (except for the split) which were nothing like the '00's?

The times are always different.

But tradition is based on continuity even though the times change. And prestige is built on the adherence to those traditions.

[Rex Monaco]

Gee, then when did Offenhauser, Ford, Cosworth, Chevy, Aurora, etc. NOT do it.

And even during these periods of history when one engine maker was CHOSEN by teams over the others, the teams didn't all use the same chassis!

But in the interest of cost savings, I am willing to let go of the chassis because I think it's much less important to the branding of an automaker than the engine.

Although I would like to see the teams be allowed some aero development of a spec chassis, if for nothing else than to make them look slightly different.

[pits4me]

Although I would like to see the teams be allowed some aero development of a spec chassis, if for nothing else than to make them look slightly different.

Great idea except most teams lack the resources of Penske. Transition teams have noted a major difference between their chassis and the ones campaigned by IRL regulars. There are a lot of modified parts (spec?) on those so called spec chassis.