[WRC] News & rumours (part II)

[jbmarcus21]

Atkinson joins Hyundai Motorsport
Atkinson recruté par Hyundaï Motorsport comme pilote de développement ! (http://planetemarcus.com/atkinson-recrute-par-hyundai-motorsport-comme-pilote-de-developpement/)

[noel157]

Chris Atkinson joins Hyundai's WRC test team - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108958)

"will support our main test drivers...."

[AndyRAC]

Not a surprise........

Get a Finn-check, get a Frenchmen-check, get Atko-check.......

[EightGear]

Petter Solberg seeking WRC comeback in 2014 - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108973)

Here we go...

[Kielder]

Not a surprise........

Get a Finn-check, get a Frenchmen-check, get Atko-check.......

Moreover, Atko is the only one available (so far) with some experience driving the three "old" WRC 1.6.

[Andre Oliveira]

24H Spa live on Youtube, maybe one day we will have something like that for WRC....

[Hazza555)]

Seb Loeb testing his new toy. It looks so lame and boring, hope he change his mind and come back soon


That sounds absolutely mental on the overrun

[vino_93]

Does he still drive Finland?
Unfortunately no.His
first drive was too late, so or it was a victory / 2nd place, and he still can dream of tittle ... or he finished far away, and that was end. He could have won ... but he lose. So now, focusing on french peugeot cup, hoping a 2nd place.

[EightGear]

Why didn't he start in Terre de l'Auxerrois?

[vino_93]

hum ... this is a mistery for me, in last AH he said he would be there.

He said he had budget problems, but he was sure to do all last rounds of Volant Peugeot :/ Must be this.

[vino_93]

My opinion is different...


I disagree. Yes, they need a strong promotion in Europe. It's not because the car isn't emerging anymore, that they don't have to do any advertising (and that's what rallying is). Yes, everyone knows the manufacturers and the cars, thanks to marketing. Rally is a way of marketing. Car manufacturers are advertising with their rally-programme in magazines, newspapers and on billboards, so it must be effective. Also the marketing strategy of VW, Peugeot and Skoda in particular for me, show how they use rallying in their advertising. I also strongly disagree that rallying is not popular anymore (maybe you are someone who believes everything was better many years ago?). There still is a huge base of people who are crazy of rallying. We still see enormous amounts of spectators on stages (be it in Monte Carlo, Sweden, Portugal, Greece, Finland, Germany, France, Spain), and actually I believe that the "status" of rallying now is much better than it was 5 years ago (at least it is in Belgium). Only the work of the promotor should be better, to bring rallying to a broader audience. Actually at this moment you can leave "broader" away.

I disagree.
I'm not inventing this, I'm pointing this with facts.
First of all in WRC, how many manufacturers were involved 10-15 years ago ? 7 or 8 !
And now ? With difficulties, 2. BMW was never interesting, Ford stopped, Citroën will stop ... thank for us, VW and Hyundai are coming.
Other point with small categories. How many manufacturers are involved here ? not a lot ... remember the 90', where all manufacturers homologated cars for all kind of regulations and part of the world.

In fact yes, there is a lot of people who are crazy of rally. As in all sports, people crazy of this will never stop loving this. But how many people does it done in term of percentage ? Not a lot ...

Other point, I will focus on France. We are one of the major country of rally.
20 years ago, at least even 10 years ago, all parts of the countries have a lot of events. Since, number of events is declining, as of course number of contenders. First of all, local governments don't like it. Local population too ... it's more and more difficult to find people who allow you to have roads to do rallies. It's rare to see politics who love rally ... (look at czech republic too !).
Then, you have to find money ... and it's more and more difficult to find sponsors who like to see their image linked to rally. It's a dirty sport. it's passing in your forest, close to your house, ... it stinks, it pollutes, it's noisy, ... it blocks your roads - the one who allow you to go to see grand'ma. And moreover, it kills people. You can't love this.

And as traduction of this, there is no diffusion on TV. The only channel diffusing it is ... Sport +. Small channel, no one have this. Before, it was TF1, one of the most important. And there was even sometime live diffusion ! (as in Monte)
On big media, what do you have ? Nothing. Sport Emission ? Nothing. TV news ? Nothing. Auto Magazin on TV ? More or less : nothing. Sometime the name of the winner.
When Loeb was winning, there was at least quick word on TV news. Now that it's Ogier, nothing. Noone knows him if you are not interesting in sport...
So, just imagine your young neighbor. At the same age as him, you develop your passion for this, thank to TV.
Now, as there is no media show, no rally in the area ... how would become a rally fan if you father ... isn't ?

Maybe this situation is specific to France. But I'm not sure of this ... for example too, in the past, there was a lot of local dealers involved in rallies. How many dealers are involved now in Europe ? Not a lot ...



Here you say the best way to promote your car is motorsport, but in Europe that "law" does not count? :)
Also here I disagree that the manufacturers can take some advantage from going to these "new markets". It will pull the price tag of competing in the WRC even much higher than it already is now. Also I don't understand VW for example. Why have an event on a big market when rallying has no impact on it?? We learned that it takes many years for an event to become popular. For example Sardinia and Mexico, how many years have they been in the WRC before they got popular? I was in Sardinia in 2009, it was their 5th year in the WRC, right? In a country where rally is very popular (it's not on main land but still travel costs are not crazy for people coming from main land). In 2009 there were almost no people. There were even easily accessible places where we were completely alone, that doesn't even happen in regional events... In 2011 the number of spectators was at least doubled, in 2012 again much more, despite of the less attractive entry list. So we see it takes let's say 6 years on the calendar before it pays off. And that exactly is where I lose the current manufacturers. Why should they pay more for less return in the first few years? It's most likely they will stop their project after some years, then their competitors from the car market can jump into the sport to take advantage of that "development", paid by...


Sorry, I would mean in emerging market. It's more spectacular than a clip with the local stars ... when you are entering a market where people don't know exactly what your are able to do, that's a good point to do motorsport, and moreover rally. A strong car, able to win on terrible roads place, that's impressive.

That's a good point. And that's where WRC has to learn. Some other motorsport disciplines learn about to make popular a new event, as WEC did with China. You have to create THE event. Make a strong promotion, doing clips in TV, etc etc ... that's sure if you are doing in the actual way, it will interest nobody ...



Yes, some event on a new area would be good. But 4-5 events on another continent than Europe (where ALL teams are based) is crazy. That way you really kill the sport from the bottom out (by making it impossible for smaller teams to participate in WRC). But ok, that is what they are doing already. They kill the sport from bottom out by making everything crazy expensive. In WRC and WRC2 we see you need rather a bag of money than talent to compete. Doing more intercontinental events would make the difference just greater. Like it is going now, soon we will have more "Al-"names on the list than others (no offence to those people).

Oh please, we have three now ... if you are a bit intelligent, it can easily work. Take the contender of WRC, WTCC. He is traveling all around the world, doing only three rounds in Europe. And all the privates teams can follow the rythm without problems. Gosh, how can it work ? It works because they are intelligent. You will travel to China at the beginning of the year, and then come back to Japan at the end. No, you are doing only once the travel, and your car stay there. That the same story if you like to drive in South America. Do once the travel, stay there the time you need, and the back at home. That's only a question of logistic. Of course you have to work on various points, as media diffusion, find big partners to help to cut the costs (and not to put money in your pocket :) ), a.s.o. ...

Keep the same logic with homologation than now. It's good, it's not a perpetual race to money.

For the second point, I agree ... but the problem isn't to the location of rally. As far as I know, there is a limited numbers of privates with talents competing there whereas we are for the major part in Europe... So it would change nothing.
The problem here are :
- the costs of the big cars, linked to the fact that actual manufacturers as Citroën or VW don't care about selling it. So the resell market is poor (for WRC).
- the costs to take part in a WRC rally, adding to the costs of the WRC ...
- the no media diffusion (which sponsor would like to promote a young guy in a discipline without media diffusion ? sponsoring is not a story of love, but of business too).

And for WRC 2, in fact this competition has no interest ... it's here to take a most important number of contenders of events, that's all.
Young guys have more to learn by driving for an official programm in ERC than in WRC 2, discipline who is historically for gentlemans (old PWRC never provides us a great talent).
WRC tried to copy Formula 1 with GP2 / F3, etc ... in existed more or less with the step to climb from promotion cars, to high national level, then european and at least WRC, but ... they want to control it. It's a fail and it always, because it costs too much, and it's hidden by WRC. it's easiest to promote your results if you win ERC than WRC 2.

[noel157]

hum ... this is a mistery for me, in last AH he said he would be there.

He said he had budget problems, but he was sure to do all last rounds of Volant Peugeot :/ Must be this.

Presume he is saving up for his R5 drive?

[Motorsportfun]

Oh please, we have three now ... if you are a bit intelligent, it can easily work. Take the contender of WRC, WTCC. He is traveling all around the world, doing only three rounds in Europe. And all the privates teams can follow the rythm without problems. Gosh, how can it work ? It works because they are intelligent. You will travel to China at the beginning of the year, and then come back to Japan at the end. No, you are doing only once the travel, and your car stay there. That the same story if you like to drive in South America. Do once the travel, stay there the time you need, and the back at home. That's only a question of logistic. Of course you have to work on various points, as media diffusion, find big partners to help to cut the costs (and not to put money in your pocket :) ), a.s.o. ...

Private teams are travelling the world because the shipment expenses are PAID and they don't pay anything from European shipment harbours.

Example: a German team travels to Marseille with own money, THEN gets free shipment from series' partner DHL.

If you want something like that in WRC (a partner that pays the bills for deliver containers), the championship MUST consolidate itself. At the moment, WRC needs to become a proper series for commercial aspects (competitors, local events, TV coverage, business opportunities for sponsors and drivers, developing new business platforms on internet/smartphones, develop on-event activies at the service park like autograph sessions, concerts, get more excitement in the service areas, etc.).

Anyway, it's extremely difficult to compare a top-level WTCC and WRC programme. A top-class programme in WTCC, like Chevrolet did until last year, is about 10 million euros per season. A WRC top-class programme is about 80 million euros. Tell WRC team managers if you want confirmation of what they told me.

[Bartek]

Rally Poland in WRC from 2014 to 2016, tomorrow confirmation ;)

[mousti]

Unfortunately no.His
first drive was too late, so or it was a victory / 2nd place, and he still can dream of tittle ... or he finished far away, and that was end. He could have won ... but he lose. So now, focusing on french peugeot cup, hoping a 2nd place.
He did Recce today though...

[jbmarcus21]

Loeb prepares RallycrossRX Lohéac [photos-videos]
Sébastien Loeb prépare le RallycrossRX de Lohéac 2013 (http://planetemarcus.com/sebastien-loeb-prepare-le-rallycrossrx-de-loheac-2013/)

[EightGear]

Some breaking news from David Evans: "Pirelli back to WRC next year. Hankook coming as well. Keep an eye on ttp://www.autosport.com for the news. It'll be with you soon..."


http://www.fia.com/fia-world-rally-championship-1

[Eli]

Some breaking news from David Evans: "Pirelli back to WRC next year. Hankook coming as well. Keep an eye on ttp://www.autosport.com for the news. It'll be with you soon..."


FIA World Rally Championship | Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (http://www.fia.com/fia-world-rally-championship-1)
MAXRALLY - Pirelli is back in the big time (http://www.maxrally.com/2013/08/01/pirelli-is-back-in-the-big-time) it's not autosport, but good enough. will be intresting to see who will use Pirelli, my guess Hyundai..

[Allyc85]

Some breaking news from David Evans: "Pirelli back to WRC next year. Hankook coming as well. Keep an eye on ttp://www.autosport.com for the news. It'll be with you soon..."


FIA World Rally Championship | Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (http://www.fia.com/fia-world-rally-championship-1)

Brilliant news :D

Autosport story Pirelli to return to the World Rally Championship in 2014 - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109128)

[Eli]

it will be the first time both of these tyre giants are in the WRC since 2005.

[Leon]

Some breaking news from David Evans: "Pirelli back to WRC next year. Hankook coming as well. Keep an eye on ttp://www.autosport.com for the news. It'll be with you soon..."


FIA World Rally Championship | Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (http://www.fia.com/fia-world-rally-championship-1)

hope Martin Holmes "World Rallying" sponsored by Pirelli will be back too

[kober]

In other news: Nicolas Fuchs is the provisional winner of the FIA WRC 2 Production Car Cup (http://www.wrc.com/news/archive/fuchs-claims-production-car-cup/?fid=18801). "The publication of the entry list for Rallye Deutschland confirms no new drivers have registered for the series. And with a driver’s top six scores counting towards the final points, none of his rivals who have competed so far can overhaul Fuchs."

[GigiGalliNo1]

Autosport/MaxRally use the same publishing group with stories..... so they're just re wording things and double publishing... it's all controlled too. Plus Pirelli details are from press release ;)

[gravelman]

Autosport/MaxRally use the same publishing group with stories..... so they're just re wording things and double publishing... it's all controlled too. Plus Pirelli details are from press release ;)

You can't expect objective journalism and opinion from people who take care of the media interests of the drivers and teams. For evidence see biscuit related rally team launch video

[noel157]

You can't expect objective journalism and opinion from people who take care of the media interests of the drivers and teams. For evidence see biscuit related rally team launch video

Too true, it's an incestuous business. Nothing objective in such a niche sport.

[gravelman]

Too true, it's an incestuous business. Nothing objective in such a niche sport.
It is now....I don't believe it always was. Anyone who proclaims them self as the voice of rally(ing) must surely rate their own professional interests and profile as higher than those he is supposed to be reporting on. Too lovey dovey, fond of the sound of their own voice....I could go on, but its getting late. Bring back irally t the wrc, but that is another story, featuring a person already alluded to.

[GigiGalliNo1]

So there is a Citroen available to a selected driver for Rally Australia this year..... I hope Meeke gets it and not Atkinson.

[Eli]

wow they are want to switch both drivers eyy... i know there are more drivers who are worth the WRC seats, but really you need more manufacturers...

[dimviii]

Lukyanuk equal with top wrc2 boys.WTF?

[RAS007]

So there is a Citroen available to a selected driver for Rally Australia this year..... I hope Meeke gets it and not Atkinson.

+1

[dimviii]

nice cut!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQvXB37CYAEMLWS.jpg

[dimviii]

Kubicas moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmIGi4sePm8

[makinen_fan]

nice cut!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQvXB37CYAEMLWS.jpg

It was posted on twitter that this cut will be forbidden on the re run of the Power stage

PS this is the News thread not the Finland one, sorry

[tommeke_B]

They should put a hay bale or any other object in the apex then and force the drivers to drive around it. If nothing is there, nothing is forbidden... :)

[makinen_fan]

Maybe, that was posted by Julian Porter, so it must be good info:

Julian Porter @The_Rally_Guru (https://twitter.com/The_Rally_Guru)
The big corner cut that @MadsOstberg (https://twitter.com/MadsOstberg) & @thierryneuville (https://twitter.com/thierryneuville) used SS 19 Painna will not be allowed in the power stage. Have to say, it was good!

[dimviii]

full Mikkos onboard from Lankamaa 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hhJEqlzRxdU#at=28

Nikara witth broken suspension after ss21
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQvt8BRCIAAO3u1.jpg:large

[dimviii]

PS this is the News thread not the Finland one, sorry

oh my bad.Sorry mods.

[Rally Hokkaido]

A local Indian article about Guarav Gill. I believe he will have his chance at WRC Rally Australia this year to see how he ranks against WRC2 regulars.

‘WRC is my ultimate goal’ (http://www.sportstaronnet.com/stories/20130810507406200.htm)

[OldF]

Google-kääntäjä (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2F2013%2F08%2F1788090%2Frallipomo-mahonen-mm-sarjaan-ehdolla-parikymmenta-muutosta)

From google translate:
” - I went around Jyväskylä WRC during all car manufacturers. I told them where to go.” :D


The FIA’s rally commission will after couple of weeks think about how to spice up the WRC.

During NORF I met all the manufacturers and told them what’s going on at the moment. During the German rally it’s to be decided what kind of proposals we give to WMSC in September.

We have about 20 proposals and one of them is the starting order which have several options. About deciding the winner on the last stage, Mahonen says “if there are any changes they are moderate.”

The promotor gave their proposal for the calendar last Friday and the calendar is to be decided during August.

The manufacturers decided among themselves that no new WRC homologations will be done next year but they can use 4 jokers to develop parts except the engine.

We are committed to continue with the current WRC cars until the end of 2016. About R5 Mahonen said it’s meant to be a replacement for group N cars. “I don’t know anything about the future cars but personally I would like to see more powerful cars.”

[tfp]

Google-kääntäjä (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2F2013%2F08%2F1788090%2Frallipomo-mahonen-mm-sarjaan-ehdolla-parikymmenta-muutosta)

From google translate:
” - I went around Jyväskylä WRC during all car manufacturers. I told them where to go.” :D


The FIA’s rally commission will after couple of weeks think about how to spice up the WRC.

During NORF I met all the manufacturers and told them what’s going on at the moment. During the German rally it’s to be decided what kind of proposals we give to WMSC in September.

We have about 20 proposals and one of them is the starting order which have several options. About deciding the winner on the last stage, Mahonen says “if there are any changes they are moderate.”

The promotor gave their proposal for the calendar last Friday and the calendar is to be decided during August.

The manufacturers decided among themselves that no new WRC homologations will be done next year but they can use 4 jokers to develop parts except the engine.

We are committed to continue with the current WRC cars until the end of 2016. About R5 Mahonen said it’s meant to be a replacement for group N cars. “I don’t know anything about the future cars but personally I would like to see more powerful cars.”

Nice to know they are at least trying something. They should ask us forum members what we want to see.

[EightGear]

They don't have to ask, people here give their opinion anyway. :p

[Sulland]

Would be nice to know the 20 proposals!

[AndyRAC]

And remember - what's best for the Manufacturers isn't always best for the sport. I wouldn't have a problem having R5 as the top class - with maybe more power.

I can't think of too many sports that have changed over the last 10-15 years as much as the WRC. Stop trying to make it something it isn't - RallyCross already exists.

[tommeke_B]

R5 will not take over WRC. FIA and manufacturers/teams want something to differ themselves, the top level of the sport, from the others, and that comes with a price tag... ;)

[Mirek]

I think that R5 with higher power could face serious reliability issues and therefore would probably end reasonably more expensive.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Rally NZ.... not looking so good for 2014 which is a shame.. real shame...

[Plan9]

Why isn't it looking good for NZ in 2014? Don't tell me they are going to have a 12 round calendar now.

[sollitt]

R5 will not take over WRC. FIA and manufacturers/teams want something to differ themselves, the top level of the sport, from the others, and that comes with a price tag... ;) And that, right there, is the biggest issue with the WRC right now. Until privateers can compete with the factory teams we'll have the same 3 or 4 person competition we've had for years. Imagine the competition NORF would have been if R5 was the world formula. There could have been 30 or more competitors in the same spec machinery, a dozen of whom with the speed to challenge for the win.

[Mirek]

...a dozen of whom with the speed to challenge for the win.


You don't believe in that, do You? ;)

[liposh]

Mirek is right, even with all these restrictions of spare parts costs and restrictions of number of serial parts the factory teams will have all the time much more better cars and parts because they can put into it (for example) 50x more than privateer could do.

[tommeke_B]

It's not just the cars... Remember some drivers are better than others? :) Of course also the conditions factory drivers can drive in is much better. Thierry Neuville tested around 500 kms for Finland, that's more than 1,5x the length of the event itself... I don't believe in a dozen who can fight for the win. 15 drivers who can fight for top 8 is more realistic... Anyway, the more drivers with equal machinery, the better the competition would be...

[Mirek]

Mirek is right, even with all these restrictions of spare parts costs and restrictions of number of serial parts the factory teams will have all the time much more better cars and parts because they can put into it (for example) 50x more than privateer could do.

I didn't mean cars...

EDIT: Tom was faster.

[Hartusvuori]

Thierry Neuville tested around 500 kms for Finland, that's more than 1,5x the length of the event itself...

Is that right? As far as I remember, he tested only one day (July 23rd) and 500 kms sound a lot for one day, though it's possible of course. Östberg and Novikov tested for 2 days.

[Eli]

what the hell, i think they forgot to show the public their calendar, last year we knew the calendar in June, why won't they share the calendar to the public???!!!!

[tommeke_B]

Is that right? As far as I remember, he tested only one day (July 23rd) and 500 kms sound a lot for one day, though it's possible of course. Östberg and Novikov tested for 2 days.

He said it in an interview after the event. Probably some other test where nobody knew about then? :) 500kms in one day seems impossible...

[rallyfiend]

what the hell, i think they forgot to show the public their calendar, last year we knew the calendar in June, why won't they share the calendar to the public???!!!!

I guess the new promoter wants to do it with consideration. And it being an FIA election year probably isn't helping things if they want to reduce it to 12 events. Every event cut could represent a vote for Todt!

[kober]

And that, right there, is the biggest issue with the WRC right now. Until privateers can compete with the factory teams we'll have the same 3 or 4 person competition we've had for years. [...]I think the solution is already there - it's called WRC 2. One can travel a world (mostly Europe though), competing on the same stages as the WRC elite, and fight for a win in a designed-for-privateers category.

[sollitt]

You don't believe in that, do You? Indeed I do!



I think the solution is already there - it's called WRC 2. One can travel a world (mostly Europe though), competing on the same stages as the WRC elite, and fight for a win in a designed-for-privateers category.That's hardly the same as having an equal opportunity to compete for the title ... which is what rallying is about and it's distinction from other motorsport codes.
Yes, factory teams have always had significantly greater resources, and always will, but with access to identical componentry privateers can and have competed and won.
What makes a "WRC Elite"? Where you come from? Daddy having the most money? Political clout?
Presently we have a number of drivers who have demonstrated a talent and ability that would have them at the pointy end of any competition but who are not even on the manufacturer teams radars. It is not only themselves but the whole of the sport and it's fans who are missing out.
Grp4 and the early days of GrpA afforded privateers the ability to replicate the factory cars in their own workshops, utilising their own skills and resources, and to go out and compete on a reasonably level playing field.
Until we get back to an accessable and affordable world formula we will continue to debate, on forums such as this, who has the merit to be awarded the favoured drive but continue to see none of them chosen.

[BDunnell]

That's hardly the same as having an equal opportunity to compete for the title ... which is what rallying is about and it's distinction from other motorsport codes.
Yes, factory teams have always had significantly greater resources, and always will, but with access to identical componentry privateers can and have competed and won.
What makes a "WRC Elite"? Where you come from? Daddy having the most money? Political clout?
Presently we have a number of drivers who have demonstrated a talent and ability that would have them at the pointy end of any competition but who are not even on the manufacturer teams radars. It is not only themselves but the whole of the sport and it's fans who are missing out.
Grp4 and the early days of GrpA afforded privateers the ability to replicate the factory cars in their own workshops, utilising their own skills and resources, and to go out and compete on a reasonably level playing field.
Until we get back to an accessable and affordable world formula we will continue to debate, on forums such as this, who has the merit to be awarded the favoured drive but continue to see none of them chosen.

Couldn't agree more. Top-level WRC cars need also to be more readily available for use on national championships. Who other than the aficionado is going to be truly interested in any series that runs 'second-rate' (for want of a better phrase) equipment? The F2 era of the British championship was a rare exception.

One sees ever more clearly that forum member FAL is correct in his assertion that 4wd ruined the sport.

[Mihai]

One sees ever more clearly that forum member FAL is correct in his assertion that 4wd ruined the sport.

So Max Mosley was right to ask for a 2wd-only WRC that was supposed to be implemented as early as 2010 ? Subaru threatened to quit then, but they quit the WRC anyway.

Subaru warn against 2WD future - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65678)


An FIA source told Autosport: "Two-wheel-drive cars with 1600cc or 1800cc turbocharged engines remain an option. Mr Mosley has been very clear on what he wants from the future regulations. He wants the cars to be slower, safer, cheaper, and more spectacular.

"Two-wheel-drive cars would certainly corner slower, so would be safer. It's safe to say two-wheel-drive would tick all the boxes Mr Mosley has asked to be ticked."

[AndyRAC]

4WD has proved it’s point. So much so that most family cars don’t use it – and these are the cars the WRC is meant to be promoting. When Ford brought the Focus RS out, neither model was equipped with it. So, what is the point?

[Mirek]

So what? You want to have RWD WRC? But there is maybe even less RWD stock cars than 4WD. So to make it all suiting reality of the market will we make WRC FWD? Sorry but that's total nonsense. See British championship. FWD are cheap and close to stock cars but nobody is interested in them. With no audience there are no sponsors and the sport is done. 4WD is a must for spectacle. Without spectacle the sport can't survive. Those few geeks sitting at live timing will appreciate close fights of FWD cars drowning in the Welsh mud but the rest will watch something else.

[BDunnell]

So what? You want to have RWD WRC? But there is maybe even less RWD stock cars than 4WD. So to make it all suiting reality of the market will we make WRC FWD? Sorry but that's total nonsense. See British championship. FWD are cheap and close to stock cars but nobody is interested in them. With no audience there are no sponsors and the sport is done. 4WD is a must for spectacle. Without spectacle the sport can't survive. Those few geeks sitting at live timing will appreciate close fights of FWD cars drowning in the Welsh mud but the rest will watch something else.

Well, there's the problem. In fact, I think the front-drive F2 cars of old were exciting to watch on tarmac and gravel, though I take your point about their performance in really bad conditions. So, the only answer is surely further cost-cutting in relation to 4wd cars — but then we return to AndyRAC's point about the irrelevance of 4wd to most road cars.

[AndyRAC]

FWD isn’t the answer, though the F2 cars were fantastic. The current BRC cars aren’t – as they look like the road cars, and despite the drivers giving it 100%, it isn’t really WOW!!!
RWD could be – but most cars sold aren’t RWD,but neither are they 4WD. Audi race RWD in DTM/ GT3 – don’t sell one in their showrooms.
If they truly wanted a spectacle, they would have 380-400BHP and RWD......but that’s not going to happen.
I understand why we still have 4WD, but I’m not totally sure whether it’s good for the sport.

[BDunnell]

I understand why we still have 4WD, but I’m not totally sure whether it’s good for the sport.

I think the genie is out of the bottle as far as 4wd is concerned. The problem is finding a way of making the sport (far) more affordable with that in mind.

I have always been very keen on a formula like the basic Group A rules circa 1987, when it was possible for 2wd and 4wd cars truly to compete against one another.

[Mirek]

Well, there's the problem. In fact, I think the front-drive F2 cars of old were exciting to watch on tarmac and gravel, though I take your point about their performance in really bad conditions. So, the only answer is surely further cost-cutting in relation to 4wd cars — but then we return to AndyRAC's point about the irrelevance of 4wd to most road cars.

F2 were nothing but cheap cars. Their rules were much more free than today's S2000, not speaking about R5 at all.

About the 2WD or RWD... According to ICCT some 2% of new cars in EU are RWD (14% in Germany). 90% of all new RWD cars in EU are BMW and Mercedes. Some 13% of all new cars in EU are 4WD. That's cca 1,6 million cars per year in EU alone. Outside of EU the share must be higher because there is higher percentage of unpaved roads. That's quite a big market in 4WD alone.

Anyway I don't think there is any significant impact on marketing value in fact that the race model is 4WD while the production not. Nowadays far majority of car buyers have no knowledge of car technology and usually has also no interest in it at all. They buy car to have a tool to transport themselves which looks nice and that's all. What the marketing tool called motorsport can lose by not presenting exactly same cars as are on sale is insignificant in my opinion. The biggest marketing value is in my opinion in winning of something everybody knows (nobody cares about class wins, only overall) and best in a spectacular way.

And last I would repeat myself again. No technical formula is cheap if rich players are involved. Making rules more and more ancient-like is quite useless for cutting costs in a long term. S2000 cars are filled by 80' technology and still they were somewhat expensive. What can help is to get rid of homologations. Let anybody build his own car if that is according to the rules. Same for part suppliers.

[tommeke_B]

Also in terms of spectacle. I always prefer a 4WD car over a RWD car, especially when the grip is less (like gravel/snow). Even if you bring back RWD, I don't believe you can bring back the spectacle of the old RWD cars. Since everything is so much focussed on having optimal traction, I think it could be very disappointing (we can already see how clean the current GT cars are driving in natinoal championships)...

[BDunnell]

F2 were nothing but cheap cars. Their rules were much more free than today's S2000, not speaking about R5 at all.

About the 2WD or RWD... According to ICCT some 2% of new cars in EU are RWD (14% in Germany). 90% of all new RWD cars in EU are BMW and Mercedes. Some 13% of all new cars in EU are 4WD. That's cca 1,6 million cars per year in EU alone. Outside of EU the share must be higher because there is higher percentage of unpaved roads. That's quite a big market in 4WD alone.

Anyway I don't think there is any significant impact on marketing value in fact that the race model is 4WD while the production not. Nowadays far majority of car buyers have no knowledge of car technology and usually has also no interest in it at all. They buy car to have a tool to transport themselves which looks nice and that's all. What the marketing tool called motorsport can lose by not presenting exactly same cars as are on sale is insignificant in my opinion. The biggest marketing value is in my opinion in winning of something everybody knows (nobody cares about class wins, only overall) and best in a spectacular way.

And last I would repeat myself again. No technical formula is cheap if rich players are involved. Making rules more and more ancient-like is quite useless for cutting costs in a long term. S2000 cars are filled by 80' technology and still they were somewhat expensive. What can help is to get rid of homologations. Let anybody build his own car if that is according to the rules. Same for part suppliers.

Some very good points there. However, I am left with the over-riding impression that the sport as we know it is effectively dead, with no meaningful way to cut costs, no way to re-energise national championships, no way to give new talent a chance without large sums of money (a problem in all forms of motorsport, and nothing new, of course, but especially acute now) and, worst of all, no wider public interest in the sport's premier championship. You say, 'The biggest marketing value is in my opinion in winning of something everybody knows', which is right, but does 'everybody know' the WRC today? Not that I can see.

The future is bleak, no doubt about it.

[Mirek]

Some very good points there. However, I am left with the over-riding impression that the sport as we know it is effectively dead, with no meaningful way to cut costs, no way to re-energise national championships, no way to give new talent a chance without large sums of money (a problem in all forms of motorsport, and nothing new, of course, but especially acute now) and, worst of all, no wider public interest in the sport's premier championship. You say, 'The biggest marketing value is in my opinion in winning of something everybody knows', which is right, but does 'everybody know' the WRC today? Not that I can see.

The future is bleak, no doubt about it.

I think that most of that is in the change of general car market direction. Rallying was on its best when every car maker was selling faster, stronger, more agile cars than his opponents but what do we have now? Already since fifteen years a go everybody is selling cars which are safer, more fuel efficient, more ecologic than his opponents. These values which drive the mass car market are not going well along with motorsport spirit. In my opinion this trend is irreversible and the value of motorsport will further decrease.

That of course applies for mass-production vehicles. Small high-profile companies like Ferrari will keep their business quite a lot dependent on their motorsport activities but we have to see their customers are different. Rallying has always been a sport for masses and that's why it suffers from the ecology/safety/efficiency values of today.

[DonJippo]

What can help is to get rid of homologations. Let anybody build his own car if that is according to the rules. Same for part suppliers.

This! :up:

[pantealex]

Couldn't agree more. Top-level WRC cars need also to be more readily available for use on national championships. Who other than the aficionado is going to be truly interested in any series that runs 'second-rate' (for want of a better phrase) equipment? The F2 era of the British championship was a rare exception.

One sees ever more clearly that forum member FAL is correct in his assertion that 4wd ruined the sport.

F1 cars are only used in Formula1 races ;)

For national use we have RRC (or R5), because there will never be more than 3-5 WRC in national series.

[jonlint]

... What can help is to get rid of homologations. Let anybody build his own car if that is according to the rules. Same for part suppliers.

I agree. In group N, dampers and gearboxes were free within certain limits (dampers need to bolt onto standard attachments and gearbox kits need to be max 5 gears and fit in the casing). This created competition amongst Reiger, Proflex, Ohlins, etc for dampers and numerous dog box kit suppliers which drove costs down. You could buy a Fiesta ST group N dog kit, carbon door cards, lamp pod etc from M sport or one from other suppliers cheaper that did the same job. Same went for roll cages, carbon door cards, lamp pods, etc - multiple suppliers, competition and lower costs. Now in group R, FIA is moving away from this and the complete kit needs to be bought from the manufacturer, down to the lamp pod, roll cage and seat mounts. A bolt-in cage for a Twingo R1 is over 2,000 Euro!

[MTA]

Swedish Rally will not pay the fee to the promotor.
3.7 mil sek /year for 3 years contract is to much so possible no Swedish Rally in WRC after 2014.

Shuldent things be better whit the new promotor? What have we seen so far?

http://nwt.se/sport/motorsport/svenskarallyt/article1354332.ece

[OldF]

Crazy times! :(


The article says the organiser paid 2,7 million sek (310 000 €) for this year. The new contract would be 425 000 € / year and the promoter want of course the whole sum (3*425000 € = 1 275 000 €) already the first year.

Reading from the article I interpret that there’s no negotiations, looks more like blackmail.

“- The ruling requires that the long-term agreement to be signed, before the season starts, but I do not think they can remove us from the calendar at such short notice. 2014 is probably secured for our part, says Glenn Olsson.”

Google-kääntäjä (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnwt.se%2Fsport%2Fmotorsport%2Fsvens karallyt%2Farticle1354332.ece%3Fservice%3Drefresh)

[rallyfiend]

Crazy times! :(


The article says the organiser paid 2,7 million sek (310 000 €) for this year. The new contract would be 425 000 € / year and the promoter want of course the whole sum (3*425000 € = 1 275 000 €) already the first year.

Reading from the article I interpret that there’s no negotiations, looks more like blackmail.

“- The ruling requires that the long-term agreement to be signed, before the season starts, but I do not think they can remove us from the calendar at such short notice. 2014 is probably secured for our part, says Glenn Olsson.”

Google-kääntäjä (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnwt.se%2Fsport%2Fmotorsport%2Fsvens karallyt%2Farticle1354332.ece%3Fservice%3Drefresh)

There's nothing in the article that says they're demanding the money up front - just that the event would have to commit to X amount per year now, in return for a multi-year commitment from the WRC.

Not the greatest researched article. Says that England receives no support from the Government. Couldn't be further from the truth!!

Germany also receives good support from the Mosel region, Trier etc.

[stefanvv]

So Max Mosley was right to ask for a 2wd-only WRC that was supposed to be implemented as early as 2010 ? Subaru threatened to quit then, but they quit the WRC anyway.

Subaru warn against 2WD future - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65678)

RWD might be spectacular in corners, but they are slow in general compared to 4WD. I prefer faster cars

[OldF]

There's nothing in the article that says they're demanding the money up front - just that the event would have to commit to X amount per year now, in return for a multi-year commitment from the WRC.

No there isn’t and I didn’t say it. It was only my way to express the promoter’s attitude against the organiser(s).

The article says the organiser paid 2,7 million sek (310 000 €) for this year. The new contract would be 425 000 € / year and the promoter want of course the whole sum (3*425000 € = 1 275 000 €) already the first year.

[rallyfiend]

No there isn’t and I didn’t say it. It was only my way to express the promoter’s attitude against the organiser(s).

The article says the organiser paid 2,7 million sek (310 000 &#8364 ;) for this year. The new contract would be 425 000 € / year and the promoter want of course the whole sum (3*425000 € = 1 275 000 &#8364 ;) already the first year.

You say the Promoter is looking for 1,275 000 in the first year.

There's nothing in the article that says that - that's my point.

[OldF]

You say the Promoter is looking for 1,275 000 in the first year.

There's nothing in the article that says that - that's my point.

Useless debate.

[BleAivano]

Crazy times! :(

Indeed. But isn't this a bit like F1 and/or Speedway GP?

A promoter only interested in making a profit that is as big as possible but with no interest in actually promoting the sport?

[MJW]

Swedish Rally will not pay the fee to the promotor.
3.7 mil sek /year for 3 years contract is to much so possible no Swedish Rally in WRC after 2014.

Shuldent things be better whit the new promotor? What have we seen so far?

Stor risk att Svenska rallyt hoppar av VM - nwt.se - Ditt Värmland, just nu! (http://nwt.se/sport/motorsport/svenskarallyt/article1354332.ece)
I bet Eurosport Events is happy, imagine an ERC with R5 the top class and having events with history like Sweden and Acropolis and the other who cant afford RedBull Media House money to be in their club. An ERC with no clashes to WTCC with affordable cars and good tv and web coverage would be very attractive to talented drivers who could find it easier to get sponsorship money to have a decent attempt at ERC.

I t makes me wonder what events get out of being in WRC now? I don't see that RBMH have done fantastic things to the sport, in fact I think the WRC we had before DR /ISC was better. Bye bye WRC in a few years, I enjoyed my time.... now moving on.

[EightGear]

I bet Eurosport Events is happy, imagine an ERC with R5 the top class and having events with history like Sweden and Acropolis and the other who cant afford RedBull Media House money to be in their club. An ERC with no clashes to WTCC with affordable cars and good tv and web coverage would be very attractive to talented drivers who could find it easier to get sponsorship money to have a decent attempt at ERC.

I t makes me wonder what events get out of being in WRC now? I don't see that RBMH have done fantastic things to the sport, in fact I think the WRC we had before DR /ISC was better. Bye bye WRC in a few years, I enjoyed my time.... now moving on.


Coverage has improved, at least certainly on the web. All daily programs are available at wrc.com after each rally, we get onboards during the rally itself on the YouTube channel and they show stage highlights on YT as well.

[AndyRAC]

I bet Eurosport Events is happy, imagine an ERC with R5 the top class and having events with history like Sweden and Acropolis and the other who cant afford RedBull Media House money to be in their club. An ERC with no clashes to WTCC with affordable cars and good tv and web coverage would be very attractive to talented drivers who could find it easier to get sponsorship money to have a decent attempt at ERC.

I t makes me wonder what events get out of being in WRC now? I don't see that RBMH have done fantastic things to the sport, in fact I think the WRC we had before DR /ISC was better. Bye bye WRC in a few years, I enjoyed my time.... now moving on.

No think about it - the WRC was better before DR/ ISC got hold of it. All it needed were a few tweaks.......

I still love the sport - but find Sportscars far more interesting at the moment - no plans to turn the great 12/ 24 Hour races into 2-3 hours to make them popular.

[Hartusvuori]

Khalid F Al Qassimi ‏@khalidbinfaisal (https://twitter.com/khalidbinfaisal) 18m (https://twitter.com/khalidbinfaisal/status/365378205714104320) Chances may come & go, yet Kris deserves them - that's how he'll grow. @krismeeke (https://twitter.com/krismeeke) to you and all your fans I'm thinking of another chance.

Interesting poetry, to say the least. Hopefully we'll see Meeke in another event too this year.

[Mintexmemory]

What with Neuville getting Qatar support, now Abu D backing for kris I'm thinking the delayed 2014 announcement could be something to do with a possible ME round

[Mihai]

Already since fifteen years a go everybody is selling cars which are safer, more fuel efficient, more ecologic than his opponents. These values which drive the mass car market are not going well along with motorsport spirit. In my opinion this trend is irreversible and the value of motorsport will further decrease.


Not if motorsport will follow the current eco-trend in the automotive industry. We already see smaller engines in the WRC and rally cars have downsized (from Focus to Fiesta and so on). Perhaps it is time to introduce a consumption limit for each crew per rally ? Sure it won't be the fastest driver who wins a rally, but the one who drives as fast as possible in a fuel-efficient way. It may sound a sacrilege for every rally purist, of which we have plenty on this forum, but it might safeguard the future and the very purpose of motorsport.

We already see in F1 that often it is not the fastest car & driver that is winning, but the car & driver combination that is managing tire wear better than others. Maybe it is time to see something like that in the WRC with cars & drivers using a limited amount of fuel as efficient as possible. A consumption cap may hurry the introduction of hybrid electric cars like the Citroën C4 WRC HYmotion4 (http://rallyeracing.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/citroen-c4-wrc-hymotion4-sau-bolidul-ecologi/) concept from a few years ago, that was supposed to use electric power only on liaison and road sections, while still using its 300 bhp petrol engine on special stages. And the auto industry will largely benefit from the development of these systems in this great lab called motorsport.

[EightGear]

Jourdan Serderidis to contest almost the whole WRC next year in a Fiesta R5 with Erwin Mombaerts?

[Mirek]

Not if motorsport will follow the current eco-trend in the automotive industry. We already see smaller engines in the WRC and rally cars have downsized (from Focus to Fiesta and so on). Perhaps it is time to introduce a consumption limit for each crew per rally ? Sure it won't be the fastest driver who wins a rally, but the one who drives as fast as possible in a fuel-efficient way. It may sound a sacrilege for every rally purist, of which we have plenty on this forum, but it might safeguard the future and the very purpose of motorsport.

We already see in F1 that often it is not the fastest car & driver that is winning, but the car & driver combination that is managing tire wear better than others. Maybe it is time to see something like that in the WRC with cars & drivers using a limited amount of fuel as efficient as possible. A consumption cap may hurry the introduction of hybrid electric cars like the Citroën C4 WRC HYmotion4 (http://rallyeracing.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/citroen-c4-wrc-hymotion4-sau-bolidul-ecologi/) concept from a few years ago, that was supposed to use electric power only on liaison and road sections, while still using its 300 bhp petrol engine on special stages. And the auto industry will largely benefit from the development of these systems in this great lab called motorsport.

Sorry, but for me this is no way to go. I'll try to explain my stance.

Motorsport in any way is not ecologic. Even with hybrid cars it is not ecologic because going from point A to point B as fast as possible can never be done in an ecologic way. Speed and ecology are contradicting each other. Not speaking about the fact that any drive just for the sake of driving ruins the spirit of ecologic thinking right from the beginning.

For me it's pointless to speak about ecology with motorsport. You can ban anti-lag and immediately You have 1/3 lower consumption and ruin the spectacle but why? To say hey, our car now consumes only 60 liters per 100 kilometers, see how we are ecologic? Seriously, WTF? You can make a big hype about that in the media of course but realistically what You achieved is a car with 10x consumption of normal stock car. Calling that ecologic is a pure hypocrisy.

My point about public stance was also meant different way than You interpreted that. I mean that if people turn to more fuel efficient, safer and more ecologic thinking they naturally loose interest in racing. Will You buy a Prius because Toyota wins WRC? Hardly. There's so much irrelevance in such connection that one wonders what can a car maker of that kind gain in motorsport.

[makinen_fan]

Maybe it is time to see something like that in the WRC with cars & drivers using a limited amount of fuel as efficient as possible.

Would you like it when you go to a stage to watch your heroes fighting for victory at maximum attack, only to see a bunch of people going in cruise mode to preserve fuel? Like Mirek said, motorsport cannot be associated with ecology and the whole green-transport ideas.
Motorsport should be used as a marketing tool to show the sportiness of the cars, reliability etc and not that they offer low fuel consumption as the manufacturers' show room car. Even saying that F1 is more eco-friendly because of the introduction of KERS and fuel capacity limit is hypocrisy, considering how much fuel they use in less than 2 hours. Motorsport should be kept a spectacle primarily and not compromise the show by such rules.

[Mihai]

You are being a true rally purist hardliner. :D Your conclusions are based on the premise that 'motorsport cannot be ecologic' which is quite questionable. Just like car makers and race tuners can extract now more bhp from a 1.4 litre engine, the same way they can extract more miles from 1 litre of fuel. It's not a question of ecologic, but a question of being more fuel efficient.

And yes, I do believe that an eco-freak customer, encouraged by EU tax subsidies for low-emission/low-consumption cars, will buy a Prius from his local showroom if Toyota is winning the World Rally Championship with a stock-based hybrid Prius WRC. For that, the FIA must shift is focus from naked performance to emphasize on fuel efficiency.

If a hybrid Prius WRC is more efficient than a hybrid Honda Accord WRC on Sunday's race finish, then Toyota will sell more Priuses on Monday. You just need to introduce one more vital variable in the equation: consumption. If fuel consumption is on regular car customers' minds, then it should be on race engineers' minds, so that the WRC won't lose it's fan base. And for that, the FIA would need to introduce a consumption limit for crews per rally, that could be lowered every 3 or 4 years.

[AndyRAC]

Motorsport seems to be going that way – whether it truly works is another matter, but it has to be seen to be making an effort.
Next years WEC regs involve a certain amount of energy – how you use it is up to you. Audi, Toyota and Nissan seem keen on showing off their hybrid technology – and the WEC allows this.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the WRC went that way as well, and it may have to.

[Mirek]

You are being a true rally purist hardliner. :D Your conclusions are based on the premise that 'motorsport cannot be ecologic' which is quite questionable. Just like car makers and race tuners can extract now more bhp from a 1.4 litre engine, the same way they can extract more miles from 1 litre of fuel. It's not a question of ecologic, but a question of being more fuel efficient.

And yes, I do believe that an eco-freak customer, encouraged by EU tax subsidies for low-emission/low-consumption cars, will buy a Prius from his local showroom if Toyota is winning the World Rally Championship with a stock-based hybrid Prius WRC. For that, the FIA must shift is focus from naked performance to emphasize on fuel efficiency.

If a hybrid Prius WRC is more efficient than a hybrid Honda Accord WRC on Sunday's race finish, then Toyota will sell more Priuses on Monday. You just need to introduce one more vital variable in the equation: consumption. If fuel consumption is on regular car customers' minds, then it should be on race engineers' minds, so that the WRC won't lose it's fan base. And for that, the FIA would need to introduce a consumption limit for crews per rally, that could be lowered every 3 or 4 years.

I don't agree, sorry.

I stand the point that motorsport can never be called ecologic. Only a hypocrite can call any driving done just for sake of driving as something ecologic. No matter if the car consumes 300 or 60 liters per the rally. All the fuel was wasted and all the emissions went to the nature for nothing necessary for human life. I am big motorsport fan and a kind of rally purist but this is simply a fact.

Nobody buys hybrid cars because those would be fast (far majority of them isn't). I seriously doubt any non-marginal effect on hybrid cars sales if those are used in competitions. Would anyone reconsider buying Harley Davidson Electra Glide because Honda Gold Wing is faster on circuit? Answer Yourself. Plus seriously nobody would watch such race. Once it may be good laugh but that's all. A race must also bring some adrenaline. Again we can bring the example of British championship. In Your terms it's very ecologic because there are no super thirsty 4WD cars. Do You see any success there in at least some particular regard? I don't.

[makinen_fan]

Motorsport seems to be going that way – whether it truly works is another matter, but it has to be seen to be making an effort.
Next years WEC regs involve a certain amount of energy – how you use it is up to you. Audi, Toyota and Nissan seem keen on showing off their hybrid technology – and the WEC allows this.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the WRC went that way as well, and it may have to.

I agree with how you put it. WRC might be forced to encourage, some kind of energy recovery systems, so that more manufactures may get an interest into the sport. I dont expect such technologies to offer genuine reduction in fuel consumption and such (as Miahi suggests), but just another platforms for manufacturers to promote their new technologies.
Although with the current economic climate and the teams in such short budgets (except VW), introducing such rules is a No-No.

[makinen_fan]

Interesting poetry, to say the least. Hopefully we'll see Meeke in another event too this year.

More on Meeke and Qassimi:
Khalid Al Qasimi sings Meeke (http://gulfnews.com/sport/motorsport/khalid-al-qasimi-sings-meeke-s-praises-1.1217961)

[Mirek]

Although with the current economic climate and the teams in such short budgets (except VW), introducing such rules is a No-No.

That's a good point as well. Everybody is calling for cost reductions but in the same time there is a talk about hybrids etc. Will those be cheaper than current cars? No way! Those will be a lot more expensive for privateers because nobody would be able to run them without factory engineers. Even stock hybrids are nightmare for service crews.

[stefanvv]

I agree with how you put it. WRC might be forced to encourage, some kind of energy recovery systems, so that more manufactures may get an interest into the sport. I dont expect such technologies to offer genuine reduction in fuel consumption and such (as Miahi suggests), but just another platforms for manufacturers to promote their new technologies.
Although with the current economic climate and the teams in such short budgets (except VW), introducing such rules is a No-No.

Exactly, Toyota are promoting their hybrid technologies in WEC, so does AUDI with e-tron + quattro. It turns efficient for long running races like Le Mans 24 hours, because the least pitstops you make, the faster you go (assuming cars still have the same power, and in case of AUDI, it turned out exactly that while they were running both R18 e-tron quattro & R18 TDI last year, e-trons used less fuel and recharging appears on braking zones too). I can't see anything like that happening in Rally, just doesn't make much sense (at least with current level of electric technology, and for ecological aspect in mind in last place).

[makinen_fan]

Also I will add that there will be some problems with handling cars, their batteries and KERS systems in case of crash. In circuit racing, you have the marshals to help move the cars, and they should be specially trained for handling cars with such systems to avoid electrocution and further problems with chemicals in those batteries. Although in rallying where any spectator can go and help move the car, it will be risky for their safety.

[stefanvv]

Yeah, not so ecological too I guess

[danon]

Rally Sweden kan tvingas att hoppa av VM! | Bilsport (http://www.bilsport.se/artikel/rally-sweden-kan-tvingas-att-hoppa-av-vm/)

http://www.bilsport.se/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/RS_04.jpg

[thuGG]

There is a chance for Kubica to drive in WRC this season:
Citroen says works WRC drive is possible for Robert Kubica - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109226)

[Mirek]

They need to try something...

[Lousada]

I don't agree, sorry.

I stand the point that motorsport can never be called ecologic. Only a hypocrite can call any driving done just for sake of driving as something ecologic. No matter if the car consumes 300 or 60 liters per the rally. All the fuel was wasted and all the emissions went to the nature for nothing necessary for human life. I am big motorsport fan and a kind of rally purist but this is simply a fact.

Nobody buys hybrid cars because those would be fast (far majority of them isn't). I seriously doubt any non-marginal effect on hybrid cars sales if those are used in competitions. Would anyone reconsider buying Harley Davidson Electra Glide because Honda Gold Wing is faster on circuit? Answer Yourself. Plus seriously nobody would watch such race. Once it may be good laugh but that's all. A race must also bring some adrenaline. Again we can bring the example of British championship. In Your terms it's very ecologic because there are no super thirsty 4WD cars. Do You see any success there in at least some particular regard? I don't.

You can't say this idea will work or not if you don't define the target audience. In marketing classes one of the first things they teach you is to explore in what fase of audience your product is. Based on that you define your strategy, pricing, marketing, costcutting or not etc. To put it in a simplified manner these are the phases as they can be applied on rally:
1. Early adaptors <-- the most dedicated people discover your product. They are driven about it and likely to infect others with enthusiasm. In rally this was the audience until lets say the Audi Quattro arrived in 1981. Until that time the people who followed the rallysport were mostly technical people who could build their own WRC car in principle. And also adventurers who enjoyed the travels and the stories. It took a real effort to follow rally then. The audience is small in this phase, but at the same time they are dedicated and eager to mouth to mouth advertising.
2. Mass audience starts to take notice. From 1982 interest in the rallysport really exploded. It was still technically interesting, it was still an adventure, but at the same time more and more people took more than a passing interest in rallies. With ups and downs this phase lasted until the Dave Richards era. The audience grows but it still takes an effort to follow the sport.
3. Highpoint. Most of the people that ever followed the sport is now, so you make it as easy as possible for everyone to follow you. That takes a lot of effort, but because so many people are reached you make up for it in volume. The DR-era saw small accesible rallies that killed the adventure. But at the same time it had the bigest media reach, everyone could follow the rally from their couch, especially people that don't like adventures. And that was a lot of people.
4. Downhill. This where we are now, the road towards the end. Here marketing studies say you need to cut costs and raise prices. Try to shake out as much money as you can and forget everything else. People complain that the WRC promotor does so little promotion and that they keep raising prices. Well that is because they realize this ship is sinking...

So for you to say "ecological racing will not work" is to simple. It won't work for the current audience no, but the current audience are the people in phase 4 on the downhill. We are the idiots that still live in phase 1 or 2 and can't let it go. The rallysport needs a reset, it needs to attract new people. It needs to attract people that are interested, dedicated and very social about it. In short, it needs to go to phase 1 again. That won't happen by doing the same thing again and again. 1.6 Turbo or 2.0 turbo, S2000 or R4 or R5 or whatever, nobody cares. Doing the Safari rally and the only limitation is that you can use max 100 litres of fuel, now that could be interesting. Eco cars are stupid now but give it three years of development and they are pretty cool...

Okay a lot of blabber again from me, sorry I should stop posting late at night :o

[vino_93]

Does anyone has news about Benito Guerra ?

[Mirek]

Lousada: I can agree partially but with all. I do agree that as a marketing tool rallying was working best with audience which virtually disappeared when people started to take cars only as common goods. Anyway I'm still skeptical about the hybrid etc. concepts. It could work in my opinion only if we do a total restart in terms of absolutely free competition - that means to allow completely different ideas to fight together and also to allow anybody to take part and build his own machine. However I think that it's too early for that. In the moment electric and hybrid cars are not really useful for long rally-type competitions and also they are pretty expensive, especially hybrids.


By the way I may look more conservative than I'm. On Sunday I'm going to spectate an SAE Formula event where electric cars take part as well. One of those was originally designed by my brother ;) In case You don't know the SAE Formula is a prestigious international university competition held since 1978.

[noel157]

Kubica may get a DS3 WRC drive?

Citroen says works WRC drive is possible for Robert Kubica - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109226)

[Sulland]

If Kubica wins WRC2 and ERC, and we see that he is given a chance in the A-Team by Matton, more young drivers will try that way, instead of trying a WRCar too early.

And that is more or less how it should be!

[dupanton]

If Kubica wins WRC2 and ERC, and we see that he is given a chance in the A-Team by Matton, more young drivers will try that way, instead of trying a WRCar too early.

And that is more or less how it should be!

That is nothing new. It is the way Loeb, Ogier, Neuville and others came to the WRC...

[BDunnell]

Okay a lot of blabber again from me, sorry I should stop posting late at night :o

Not at all. However, some explanation of why you think 'phase 2' came about would be interesting. There are nearly always lessons to be learned from when something was once successful, even in changing times.

[BDunnell]

Motorsport seems to be going that way – whether it truly works is another matter, but it has to be seen to be making an effort.
Next years WEC regs involve a certain amount of energy – how you use it is up to you. Audi, Toyota and Nissan seem keen on showing off their hybrid technology – and the WEC allows this.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the WRC went that way as well, and it may have to.

It may have to, but how to manage it without creating a Le Mans-type situation whereby there's no point entering in the top class without a hybrid?

[BDunnell]

We already see in F1 that often it is not the fastest car & driver that is winning, but the car & driver combination that is managing tire wear better than others. Maybe it is time to see something like that in the WRC with cars & drivers using a limited amount of fuel as efficient as possible.

I have no problem with slowing rallying down in general. In fact, to me that would be a welcome bonus.

[eestlane]

Nonononono. The point of rallying is to see who is the fastest. If they have to drive like tourists on the stages then its not fun for the spectators and the drivers. Thats the main reason why WRC is better than F1. People are driving flat out. If something has to change then it should be that you get points every day. Like in poland. If you retite on day one then you can still get points from day 2 and 3. Then people are always driving flat out. The rally winner is who has thr best time through day 1,2 and 3.

[BDunnell]

Nonononono. The point of rallying is to see who is the fastest. If they have to drive like tourists on the stages then its not fun for the spectators and the drivers. Thats the main reason why WRC is better than F1. People are driving flat out. If something has to change then it should be that you get points every day. Like in poland. If you retite on day one then you can still get points from day 2 and 3. Then people are always driving flat out. The rally winner is who has thr best time through day 1,2 and 3.

With respect, this is quite a modern view of rallying. It wasn't always about going flat-out all the time — this was why drives like Mikkola on the 1983 1000 Lakes, or Vatanen on the 1985 Monte, were so exceptional. They took it absolutely to the limit to recover from problems and win. And it wasn't as if everyone else looked like they were cruising. Does one see any truly outstanding drives like those nowadays?

And the notion of awarding points for each day goes against the very notion of the sport as we know it. Why not go the whole hog and award points for each stage? That would be fine for a new sport, but not rallying.

[AndyRAC]

Whatever happened to a test of speed & endurance?? It's almost now a dirty word in the WRC. 200km of special stages isn't exactly testing, is it?

[tommeke_B]

Whatever happened to a test of speed & endurance?? It's almost now a dirty word in the WRC. 200km of special stages isn't exactly testing, is it?

Actually I don't know any event that has been below 300km of special stages, so far... Except for Rally Jordan that has been cut due to transport/safety issues. Actually I think events are getting longer again last few years (at least longer than 4-5 years ago)? Greece thisy ear and Sardinia last 2 years are the exceptions...

[Mirek]

Yes, the "tolerance" to the length of the event is now wider allowing longer events. In last few years there was a number of 400+ km events which was not the case of the decade before. Argentina was scheduled even up to 500 km. Even the shortest ERC events are over 200 km.

[tommeke_B]

Indeed... Average length of WRC event in:

2012: 387,89kms
2011: 356,96kms
2010: 351,33kms
2009: 349,91kms
2008: 346,64kms

You can't really say events got shorter in terms of SS kms, but in number of stages they got a bit shorter I think. More longer stages, like 40-50km long monster-stages, I don't really like the idea of less seperate stages, especially from a spectating point of view.

[bluuford]

If Kubica wins WRC2 and ERC, and we see that he is given a chance in the A-Team by Matton, more young drivers will try that way, instead of trying a WRCar too early.

And that is more or less how it should be!

Good point! but it is not possible to win ERC for him anymore. Mathematically not possible.

[PLuto]

Good point! but it is not possible to win ERC for him anymore. Mathematically not possible.

There was plans for Kubica to do ERC, but after bad results they have focused on WRC2.

[pucky54]

...but after bad results they have focused on WRC2...

...where he has almost no competition! ;)

[Nornbugger]

...where he has almost no competition! ;)

He can only beat those who enter, and anyway I think after Finland comments like yours are not nessessary.

[tommeke_B]

He can only beat those who enter, and anyway I think after Finland comments like yours are not nessessary.
Most comments on this forum are not needed, but that doesn't mean they are wrong.

2nd in WRC2 at this moment is Al-Kuwari, big competition? If you see he lost over 1s/km to top drivers of the Italian championship, while he often won the WRC2 by minutes, you can start questioning... ;) And yes, in Finland there were some local drivers and there was Paddon (for the first time this year).

[tommeke_B]

WRC on Twitter is a failure, but on facebook also. They posted a message "156 entrants for Germany". Hartusvuori commented that it was wrong, that 156 is the highest number competing, but not the number of competitors. Then they deleted the post. Talking about professionalism...

[pettersolberg29]

So Meeke replaces Sordo in Australia. Good decision.

[Mintexmemory]

So Meeke replaces Sordo in Australia. Good decision.
Reading between the lines of the Autosport reportage of the Citroen announcement; my interpretation of Germany being Sordo's last chance is very much confirmed - podium or else Kris is in for the rest of the season, not just Australia.

[Eli]

yep, after that it will be decided if Sordo leaves or not, but i think that they might just swap both drivers next year, I mean even Hirvonen's performances this year are low for his standards

[Barreis]

Meeke is nothing better then Sordo...

[MartijnS]

Don't think he's that much better indeed, but still Sordo simply doesn't show anything this year.

[Mintexmemory]

Meeke is nothing better then Sordo...
Well, tell M. Matton he's got it wrong then!! ;)

[AndyRAC]

Meeke is nothing better then Sordo...

Wait until Meeke has done the same number of WRC events in a WRCar - then make a judgement! I think Kris has only done about 12 events in a WRCar.....in a 7-8 year period.

[Eli]

anyways it will be intersting to see who's where next year...if their only were more manufacturers...

[TyPat107]

Nice to hear Kris gets another chance.

Did Sordo seem faster in the Mini? Or am I alone on that?

[Eli]

he was faster and way more confident, if they wouldn't have died he might have had his first win under his belt...

[Barreis]

Sordo at least finishes most of the rallies... Not his fan but I'm much less fan of Meeke's...

[Mintexmemory]

Nice to hear Kris gets another chance.

Did Sordo seem faster in the Mini? Or am I alone on that?
Only because they prioritised the tarmac events in the season they were team mates. Remember, Sordo came into the Mini team as the senior member with previous WRC experience of all the rallies entered.

[pino]

About time Kris gets another chance on a competitive car, good luck to him :up: as for Sordo, he's had too many chances without impressing me much so I won't miss him...

[Hartusvuori]

Wait until Meeke has done the same number of WRC events in a WRCar - then make a judgement! I think Kris has only done about 12 events in a WRCar.....in a 7-8 year period.

If I counted right, this will be his 10th start in World Rally Car, first two being the prehistoric GB and Ireland with Impreza, then most with Mini of course and now DS3.

I bet we'll see a lacklustre Sordo from the start of Germany already, this will not boost his motivation, even if it should. I hope I'm wrong, but the killing spirit isn't now at Citroen team. And even if Meeke did okeyish in Finland (honestly it got out of proportions, the buzz there), he still have lots to learn. But the best thing is, he's willing and highly motivated.

[makinen_fan]

I hope Meeke makes the best from this opportunity. I was hoping lots more from Sordo this year, after some promising outings with the Mini and a good rally Argentina with Ford.
I hope we will not be disappointed by Kris since the expectations are a bit high after his impressive appearance in Finland.

[Eli]

he is expected to deliver, let's hope he does :)

[stefanvv]

If I counted right, this will be his 10th start in World Rally Car, first two being the prehistoric GB and Ireland with Impreza, then most with Mini of course and now DS3.

I bet we'll see a lacklustre Sordo from the start of Germany already, this will not boost his motivation, even if it should. I hope I'm wrong, but the killing spirit isn't now at Citroen team. And even if Meeke did okeyish in Finland (honestly it got out of proportions, the buzz there), he still have lots to learn. But the best thing is, he's willing and highly motivated.

Yes, motivation is something Sordo seems to miss already. Hope Meeke proves his worthy though

[Eli]

can you blame him? he was for 5 years as number 2 (with Loeb there), and then number 1 in MINI (and that didn't last long) and now he's had another chance but a different Seb is dominating this championship even if he's not with Citroen.

[Hartusvuori]

... and now he's had another chance but a different Seb is dominating this championship even if he's not with Citroen.

Yep, it's kind of a bummer in sports that there can be someone who can outclass you. Seriously, shouldn't that be the most inspirational and motivating thing, to beat them? Especially if the opponent is in the other team. I think Sordo's perfomance suffers from something more fundamental.

[Eli]

... I think Sordo's perfomance suffers from something more fundamental.
true, i agree- i mean look at his result last year in argentina with ford, i think he was raised in the wrong enviroment.

[dupanton]

I don't know if the problems is only with Sordo. Hirvonen is as passive and lacks fighting spirit too. I would think the team can't handle Loebs retirement. There is just something not right in that team!

[Sulland]

I think Sordo will get 1 chance to prove his speed on asphalt this year. If he is not able to outrun Hirvonen, and fight for the win, he is out.

he has been so far off on gravel this year, so he needs to prove himself in Germany, if not Meeke should keep himself close to a phone!

[RS]

I don't know if the problems is only with Sordo. Hirvonen is as passive and lacks fighting spirit too. I would think the team can't handle Loebs retirement. There is just something not right in that team!

It's simple, they need a no.1 driver. Hirvonen and Sordo are not that (maybe Meeke isn't either) but a team of Meeke and Neuville as No.1 sure seems a lot more exciting right now.

[Mintexmemory]

I said at the start of the year that Citroen had appointed joint No2s - Sordo could have been a winner but Spain 2010 ended all that. Both Mikko and Dani know they can't live up to the. Charisma of SL and are psychological wrecks because they feel judged and found wanting every rally.

[Sulland]

Meeke will replace Sordo in Australia, some sources report!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109249

[Kielder]

I think Sordo will get 1 chance to prove his speed on asphalt this year. If he is not able to outrun Hirvonen, and fight for the win, he is out.

he has been so far off on gravel this year, so he needs to prove himself in Germany, if not Meeke should keep himself close to a phone!

You're absolutely right :) . In fact, the decision to skip Australia was shared by Citroën and Sordo (even some informations say that Sordo himself asked not to run in Australia). He knew that he won't be there a week ago. Rally Deustchland and Alsace (even Catalunya) are his last chances. It's now or never.
Moreover, after this change on his program, he will drive a DS3 with the same specifications as Loeb in Alsace (not a PH Sport's car, which was on his contract) ;) . However, this is a minor advantage, since he drove the same car as Loeb dozens of times...
My feeling is that he will leave the WRC without a win. He could find a seat next season, but the number of drivers who are able to be faster than him on asphalt has increased since January.

[dimviii]

I don't know if the problems is only with Sordo. Hirvonen is as passive and lacks fighting spirit too. I would think the team can't handle Loebs retirement. There is just something not right in that team!

Team is ok,just drivers are not ok.

[tfp]

I hope Meeke makes the best from this opportunity. I was hoping lots more from Sordo this year, after some promising outings with the Mini and a good rally Argentina with Ford.
I hope we will not be disappointed by Kris since the expectations are a bit high after his impressive appearance in Finland.

I heard this news today, I'm a bit let down by sordo, as you say, with his performance in the mini and replacing latvala in Argentina, I certainly expected better.

But let's be for to Meeke though, if he can perform well in Finland, he can perform well anywhere.

[Andre Oliveira]

I wish Sordo with Neuville next year at Ford.

[Sladden]

I heard this news today, I'm a bit let down by sordo, as you say, with his performance in the mini and replacing latvala in Argentina, I certainly expected better.

But let's be for to Meeke though, if he can perform well in Finland, he can perform well anywhere.

Strange thing with Sordo. In 2011 he and Meeke both drove the Mini in Finland. And Sordo was much quicker not just in Finland. Far below his potential this year.

[Rallyper]

I wish Sordo with Neuville next year at Ford.

It might. Then it´ll be Ostberg and Mikko at Citroen...

[Plan9]

Well I am glad I am going to Australia now. It will be interesting to see what approach Meeke takes there. I would say it would be best for him to finish the rally at all costs. I have a feeling once he proves he can complete events without drama he will find it easier to get something sorted for next year.

[Barreis]

Well I am glad I am going to Australia now. It will be interesting to see what approach Meeke takes there. I would say it would be best for him to finish the rally at all costs. I have a feeling once he proves he can complete events without drama he will find it easier to get something sorted for next year.
That would Sordo do without problem. Matton must do something after fiestas started to be faster... Reality: vw is better then others, just like Ogier and Citroën wins only when Loeb drives it. That' it.

[GigiGalliNo1]

I'd like to see Peugeot in and Citroen out. Citroen should do a change, the team should change and have a different moral and get back to winning days as they had with Loeb!

[HaCo]

I wish Sordo with Neuville next year at Ford.

Me too! Sordo has far more potential than what we have seen this year!

Verstuurd van mijn ARCHOS 80G9 met Tapatalk

[Mintexmemory]

I'd like to see Peugeot in and Citroen out. Citroen should do a change, the team should change and have a different moral and get back to winning days as they had with Loeb!

:D Did you mean they should 'have a different moral' as in not treating drivers in an underhand, unfair manner because they looked like competing with Couilles d'Ors?
Or is that a typo and you mean a Peugeot team would have different 'morale' - lots of get up and go instead of sitting around crying and self-flagellating because 'he who made the sun to shine' has gone? (It is a bit like the end of a love affair with Citroen as the jilted partner and the No2's being blamed because 'you're not Him!')

[RS]

It might. Then it´ll be Ostberg and Mikko at Citroen...

Still not enough!

[Barreis]

Matton made a mistake not signing Solberg...

[mohit]

solberg should have been signed sure he still has speed.

i think there might be a surprise as soon as RX season gets over

[noel157]

I think not.

[Hartusvuori]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRioElmCAAEnNNe.jpg:large

Looks like a new Fiesta WRC for Prokop/Jipocar. From Prokop's Twitter account.

[Co-driven]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRioElmCAAEnNNe.jpg:large

Looks like a new Fiesta WRC for Prokop/Jipocar. From Prokop's Twitter account.


Where does Prokop's money comes from?

[Mirek]

Jipocar is a big logistic company of Prokop's father.

http://www.jipocar.cz/data/1300442333_letrijen04.jpg

[GigiGalliNo1]

Red and Yellow house is Prokop's with HUGE logistics warehouses in backyard. How beautiful!! tehehehehe =)

[Mirek]

That's hotel. Anyway I found that now the logistic center is much bigger than in the picture. This is air-photo: Mapy.cz (http://mapy.cz/s/8gqq)

[GigiGalliNo1]

:D Did you mean they should 'have a different moral' as in not treating drivers in an underhand, unfair manner because they looked like competing with Couilles d'Ors?
Or is that a typo and you mean a Peugeot team would have different 'morale' - lots of get up and go instead of sitting around crying and self-flagellating because 'he who made the sun to shine' has gone? (It is a bit like the end of a love affair with Citroen as the jilted partner and the No2's being blamed because 'you're not Him!')

The second one! Sorry, English is my first language :P

[Gregor-y]

That's hotel. Anyway I found that now the logistic center is much bigger than in the picture. This is air-photo: Mapy.cz (http://mapy.cz/s/8gqq)
Shipping, storage... and car rental? Interesting mix but it's neat to see they're right between Prague and Brno.

That mansion needs some trees around it. Or any kind of landscaping.

[Mirek]

Shipping, storage... and car rental? Interesting mix but it's neat to see they're right between Prague and Brno.

I think that car rental is a good business here. All bigger companies use mostly rental or operative-leased cars for their employees and for business trips.


That mansion needs some trees around it. Or any kind of landscaping.

It looks ridiculous from the air, true.

[noel157]

Greece in or out for next season?

FIA denies Acropolis Rally already dropped from 2014 WRC schedule - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109257)

[noel157]

Citroen Sport's plans for 2014:

Citroen: We will be there with a manufacturer entry | WRC News | Aug 2013 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/world+rally/news/194414/1/matton_three_cars_for_citroen_in_2014.html)

[COD]

Indeed... Average length of WRC event in:

2012: 387,89kms
2011: 356,96kms
2010: 351,33kms
2009: 349,91kms
2008: 346,64kms

You can't really say events got shorter in terms of SS kms, but in number of stages they got a bit shorter I think. More longer stages, like 40-50km long monster-stages, I don't really like the idea of less seperate stages, especially from a spectating point of view.

That is too short timespan, no big changes there. But compare SS km's from late 90's to now, then you see a difference. Not to mention 80's and now....

[Mirek]

That is too short timespan, no big changes there. But compare SS km's from late 90's to now, then you see a difference. Not to mention 80's and now....

You shall follow the context. That was reply to the statement that WRC events gets shorter every year which is not true because the trend reversed in last couple of years.

Comparison with 90' or 80' is a bit pointless. Everything was different those days. For example for asphalt rallies there was waaaaay less traffic so it mush have been much easier to close roads than today. Those days there was no safety so You didn't need 1500 marshals for 250 km long event (Barum this year). To held 1000 km long event today in Europe would be so expensive that there would be probably on two or three events, not speaking about number of teams which could afford to take part.

[Franky]

That is too short timespan, no big changes there. But compare SS km's from late 90's to now, then you see a difference. Not to mention 80's and now....

Tommeke_B's timespan is long enough to understand the trend. In 2005 the maximum competitive distance rule was changed from 400km to 350km. And as you can see it is slowly growing again when the limit has been set higher.

[noel157]

Not a big surprise, Nasser and Papa Wilson want Neuville for 2014 (and maybe Ostberg too....):

M-Sport determined to hang on to Thierry Neuville - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109272)

[dimviii]

how will pay him?Can he pay more from Hyundai or Citroen?

[RS]

Neuville says he wants to stay but would surely the chance to be no.1 at a full works team like Citroen would lure him away?

[OldF]

Maybe Nasser Al-Attiyah is paying some salary to Thierry. During NORF Markku Alen had a chat with his co-driver Nicolas Gilsoul and said that Nicolas is still working in his daily job.

[Barreis]

FIA wants to tweak running order rules in the WRC - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109280)

[tommeke_B]

Maybe Nasser Al-Attiyah is paying some salary to Thierry. During NORF Markku Alen had a chat with his co-driver Nicolas Gilsoul and said that Nicolas is still working in his daily job.
As far as I know/heard, they don't have any salary indeed. Or at least this year, if the rest of the year goes well, they will hit the jackpot next year (being probably the only one who can threaten Ogier in the near future). :D
Nicolas Gilsoul is working independently for mobile phone operators, he's doing maintenance and repairs on mobile phone masts. He also did some coordination-work for M-Sport (I think things like preparing recce with recce service etc for the whole team).
Thierry has several personal sponsors (such as SuperDry, Ice Watch etc), maybe he gets his salary from there, I don't know (and it's not my business). :)

[BleAivano]

FIA wants to tweak running order rules in the WRC - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109280)

They f******** stupid. They want ruin it again now that we actaully don't see any ridiculous tactics.
Why can't they just for once stop changing the rules to create artificial excitement.

[GigiGalliNo1]

FIA wants to tweak running order rules in the WRC - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109280)

I read this during Finland. Sometimes Internet is so slow with Rally news...

[GigiGalliNo1]

Two things. Neuville in my opinion is too young to be number 1 driver but saying that. The M-Sport team are doing well in supporting and not playing favorites. I was very surprised that Wilson let the boys fight it out on the podium where there could have been a HUGE f-up if either or both could have crashed in the final stages. He had some balls to let then fight as normally if one crashed, Wilson would be in tears!
I think that was two things already but the third is that sponsors pay Neuville to wear watches, sunglasses and other personal sponsors. He keeps the money and probably gets something from Qatar. But unlike P Solberg, he got sponsors and took a small sum to live off of BUT the rest was invested in working on the team, the car and travel. So Neuville doesn't have to!

[Prisoner Monkeys]

They f******** stupid. They want ruin it again now that we actaully don't see any ridiculous tactics.
Why can't they just for once stop changing the rules to create artificial excitement.
I don't think they're intentionally trying to ruin things or create "artificial excitement". Rather, I think Mahonen isn't happy with the way the current system addresses the problem of road position tactics. It's eradicated the issue, but at the same time it has handed a big advantage to the fastest qualifiers. It's kind of gone from one extreme to the other.

Whatever changes are made, it's not going to affect the overall order too much. But it will at least give some drivers a fighting chance, rather than saddling them with road-sweeping duties just because they were slow on the qualifying stage.

Honestly, the easiest thing to do will be to fix the stage timing issue. If the FIA can track the cars in real time, then they will see what the drivers are doing, and if someone is inexlpicably stopping on a stage, then they should be given a time penalty or disqualified for it unless they can prove they had a legitimate reason for it, like a mechanical issue. After all, everything is monitored by sensors, and if those sensors can send the FIA live telemetry, then the FIA can see what they are doing.

[andyone]

guys lets look it in the good ways. Loeb won many championships starting first on the road. and ogier is actually easily winning. by being able to just win the qualifying stage. and choose the best starting order. and for me the tacticks were more intresting. and more intense. than just starting and shooting to the lead and that is it.. come one its boring. but tactics. you have to use more of your brains than just pure speed.

the way the system runs now. even if ogier wins 15 titles. he will still not be as good as The Great Sebastian Loeb.. i wanna see tactics. and more challenge. whats the problem with Tactics???? in Formula 1. its not all about just speed. have some other strategies. that makes it more a racing.

[tommeke_B]

Honestly, the easiest thing to do will be to fix the stage timing issue. If the FIA can track the cars in real time, then they will see what the drivers are doing, and if someone is inexlpicably stopping on a stage, then they should be given a time penalty or disqualified for it unless they can prove they had a legitimate reason for it, like a mechanical issue. After all, everything is monitored by sensors, and if those sensors can send the FIA live telemetry, then the FIA can see what they are doing.

What if I told you you can lose over half a minute on a stage without stopping too? What if someone misses a junction or makes a spin? You can't say it is (not) on purpose... For me the system is good like it is now, maybe in stead of letting the drivers choose their starting position after QS, they should just just take the times from fast to slow and let the slowest start first (how it is mostly chosen anyway). Doing this with all WRC cars is a good thing imo, better than the first 15 in early 2000's (where it wasn't always fair for the starting cars around 15th position in classification).

[AndyRAC]

As ever, they’re looking at the wrong things. How about the timing issues, attracting new Manufacturers, etc
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the system as it is. It works – the best/fastest qualifier chooses his position. Simple!! No, handicapping the leader – hoping to create false drama.

The worlds most successful sport doesn’t keep changing it’s rules hoping to create more excitement – and to even the playing field. If someone is too good and keeps winning – tough!!

[RS]

Two things. Neuville in my opinion is too young to be number 1 driver

I can't see how age is relevant. He is joint second in the championship, and ahead of both regular Citroen drivers and his Ford team mates. Ok the championship is not over but he keeps on getting better and better despite a big experience deficit to almost everyone else in a manufacturer drive.

If Citroen (or whoever) are looking for a driver who has the potential to be a champion in the quite near future there is simply nobody else available.

I would even go as far as to say if Citroen can't get him they may as well give up on next year now.

[bluuford]

I can't see how age is relevant. He is joint second in the championship, and ahead of both regular Citroen drivers and his Ford team mates. Ok the championship is not over but he keeps on getting better and better despite a big experience deficit to almost everyone else in a manufacturer drive.

If Citroen (or whoever) are looking for a driver who has the potential to be a champion in the quite near future there is simply nobody else available.

I would even go as far as to say if Citroen can't get him they may as well give up on next year now.

I think they should try something radical with drivers (starting already now). Maybe it is good try with Meeke? However, I am not 100% sure on Meeke. We will see with next few rallies.

Maybe give more chanches for Kubica and see how good he actually is against real competition?

Maybe Hänninen.. Not sure as well.. he tends to make too many mistakes with his WRC appearances (mistakes on his every appearence).

Maybe Tänak? Give him 100% support and testing.. he won several stages against Loeb and was often on pair with Neuville without testing in 2012.

Maybe Ostberg? Well.. this year he has all testing. he is one of the most experienced young drivers.. but still misses the final bit... Many mistakes while driving fast.

Andersson? He has more than 10 years experience but currently misses that final bit.

Atkinson? He has a lot WRC experience but also misses something.

Novikov? Too much will. Too much trying. Seems like he has lost his confidence..

Neuville? I am sure he is overbooked already.

Nikkara? fast in Nordic rallies. Maybe worth trying?

Solberg? Sorry for his fans. His time is passed.

Others. Too young and inexperienced.
So, my final shortlist is: Kubica Meeke, Nikkara, Tänak (in alphabetical order).

[tommeke_B]

Novikov? Too much will. Too much trying. Seems like he has lost his confidence..


I think he hasn't lost it. He is very confident in every event, before he crashes... It should be an extra question on Pickems: On which stage is Novikov going to crash? :D

[Barreis]

Next season top 8 JWRC drivers into works teams and current wrc guys into retirement... :D

[Mintexmemory]

I think he hasn't lost it. He is very confident in every event, before he crashes...

More than can be said for poor Ilka!!!
Ok addition to the support category thread - predict which stage Novikov has his. 1st crash. I'll do the editing later this evening ;)

[Rallyper]

Maybe give more chanches for Kubica and see how good he actually is against real competition?

Maybe Hänninen.. Not sure as well.. he tends to make too many mistakes with his WRC appearances (mistakes on his every appearence).

Maybe Tänak? Give him 100% support and testing.. he won several stages against Loeb and was often on pair with Neuville without testing in 2012.

Andersson? He has more than 10 years experience but currently misses that final bit.

Nikkara? fast in Nordic rallies. Maybe worth trying?

Others. Too young and inexperienced.
So, my final shortlist is: Kubica Meeke, Nikkara, Tänak (in alphabetical order).

I think these guys need to have more testing and do several rallies in a row to be judged in a fair way. Until then they can´t prove themselves right.

[mohit]

Solberg did not perform well in 2012 only please check results for 2009-2012 once again.

In 2012 he won quite a lot stages in fact, he can perform given the right support and conditions.

He deserves a chance and he can perform for sure.

[bluuford]

OMG;-)

[RS]

I think they should try something radical with drivers (starting already now).

My first choice would be a lineup of Neuville/Meeke, but if that can't happen then your idea is probably my second preference. I don't think there is any point in continuing with the current lineup if they have any ambitions beyond turning up.

Regarding your shortlist I would probably put Hanninen in instead of Nikkara or Tanak. I still believe once he gets in the groove with a car he can fight at the front.

[amilk]

Good sumup by bluuford - .....no Paddon on the list, wow :)

Out of Neuville for me the quick ones are Ostberg, Novikov, Tanak, Buffier, maybe Lappi in some years.
But risky choice all of them to nr.1.

[miniwintz]

Malcom Wilson expressed his interest for Lukyanuk :D I'd like to see him in a WRC car for once

[Doon]

Good sumup by bluuford - .....no Paddon on the list, wow :)

Out of Neuville for me the quick ones are Ostberg, Novikov, Tanak, Buffier, maybe Lappi in some years.
But risky choice all of them to nr.1.

Honestly now, can someone please tell me what Bouffier has done to impress so much? Hyundai test driver and all this talk of him taking a Citroen seat, but has he actually ever been quick?

[noel157]

..........and all this talk of him taking a Citroen seat,


What's that about?

[cali]

Honestly now, can someone please tell me what Bouffier has done to impress so much? Hyundai test driver and all this talk of him taking a Citroen seat, but has he actually ever been quick?
To your question: yes, he's quick enough.

[Rallyper]

Enough only possibly on tarmac.

[NxOxT]

for testing he is ok... for more.... he needs a lot of time he does not have....

[COD]

Malcom Wilson expressed his interest for Lukyanuk :D I'd like to see him in a WRC car for once

He is always interested in drivers with deep enough pockets to rent a WRC :D

[Barreis]

World Rally Championship - News - Q&A: Dani Sordo (http://www.wrc.com/news/qa-dani-sordo/?fid=18914)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

... Who?

[Donney]

Brave words from Sordo, I hope he delivers.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Who is Lukyanuk and why is Wilson interested in him?

[Juha_Koo]

Who is Lukyanuk and why is Wilson interested in him?

Alexey Lukyanuk, perhaps currently the world's fastest Gr.N. driver. This season driving Baltic events and was also in NORF, 16th O/A, would have been somewhere around 11th-12th without a puncture in Ouninpohja... Incredible handling skills, impossible to go faster with GrN car.

Have a look: Alexey Lukyanuk - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/lucasalexopel/videos)

I really hope that he'll get access to R5 or S2000 car next season...

[Mirek]

He was also battling for third place overall in ERC Rally Latvia this year but he had to retire after a minor off into a frozen snowbank. That was also with gr.N car.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Thanks, guys. I don't get too much coverage of anything other than the WRC, and having recently list my dedicated internet connection, I get even less coverage than before.

If he's as good as has been made out, then I'd love to see him in the WRC.

[DIMI44]

Who is Lukyanuk and why is Wilson interested in him?

Is he rich?

[vkangas]

Alexey Lukyanuk, perhaps currently the world's fastest Gr.N. driver. This season driving Baltic events and was also in NORF, 16th O/A, would have been somewhere around 11th-12th without a puncture in Ouninpohja... Incredible handling skills, impossible to go faster with GrN car.

Have a look: Alexey Lukyanuk - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/lucasalexopel/videos)

I really hope that he'll get access to R5 or S2000 car next season...
Would be nice to see white whale vs. green whale battle...in other words Nikara vs. Lukyanuk in group N cars. Preferably a new event for both also. That would mean serious trouble for some S2000 guys. :)

[miniwintz]

I had the privilege to talk to him a couple of times at NORF, and more than being incredibly fast on stage he was also the most down to earth driver in the service park, caring a lot for his fans and always with a smile on his face.

Right after SS6 where he set the 8th time overall (right in the middle of WRC/S2000 cars.. but he did start when the track had cleared), he told me "was I any fast? I thought I was going too slow!" :)
Also mechanics and support at ASRT seemed really happy to be there, photo guy beat my time pretty hard in the rallycross simulator hehehe

As much as I want to see him drive at top level I'm afraid all this warmth and closeness might fade away if he starts competing on world-class championships. Same goes with onboards obviously, I wouldn't have heard of him if it were not for those incredible demonstrations of how to drive a 1.5-ton tank very much over the limit :D

[darkstar]

i think he´s not really rich, first time i heard from him he was driving an old astra f, maybe 2 years ago only. then he switched to that evo.

[A FONDO]

Is he rich?

No, or at least not enough to drive several WRC rounds a year. I hope some oligarh will like him and begin supporting him, because he seems more promising than Novikov IMHO.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Novikov has potential, but he's unfocused at times. When he's on form, he can set a blistering pace. He reminds me a little of Ari Vatanen, who either won the rally or crashed out.

[jacko]

excuse me, Novikov reminds you to Vatanen?, even a little bit, you can't be serious about to name those names in one...

[jacko]

Novikov has potential, but he's unfocused at times. When he's on form, he can set a blistering pace. He reminds me a little of Ari Vatanen, who either won the rally or crashed out.

excuse me, Novikov reminds you to Vatanen?, even a little bit, you can't be serious about to name those names in one...

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Have you seen Novikov's stage times? When he's on form - when he's Novikon - he can be extraordinarily quick. But when he's Novikoff, he's usually wrapped around the one object that seems impossible to crash into.

Anyway, a thought occurred to me about Alexey Lukyanuk: Nasser al-Attiyah controls the purse strings at Ford, but he seems to be happy to trust to Malcolm Wilson's judgement. If Wilson is genuinely impressed by Lukyanuk, then it should not be hard to convince al-Attiyah to put him in the car, even if it us only for a limited campaign, like Hanninen.

[dupanton]

Have you seen Novikov's stage times? When he's on form - when he's Novikon - he can be extraordinarily quick. But when he's Novikoff, he's usually wrapped around the one object that seems impossible to crash into.

Anyway, a thought occurred to me about Alexey Lukyanuk: Nasser al-Attiyah controls the purse strings at Ford, but he seems to be happy to trust to Malcolm Wilson's judgement. If Wilson is genuinely impressed by Lukyanuk, then it should not be hard to convince al-Attiyah to put him in the car, even if it us only for a limited campaign, like Hanninen.

Wilson would better try him out in ERC/WRC2 first ;)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Probably. But at the current rate, the only way anyone is going to catch Volkswagen is to take a gamble with their driver line-up.

[ThomasS]

Wilson would better try him out in ERC/WRC2 first ;)

Lukanuk was very impressive in ERC Latvia

Just out of interest what is the top speed of the Evo compared to an R5, RRC, or S2000 car ?

[stefanvv]

Probably. But at the current rate, the only way anyone is going to catch Volkswagen is to take a gamble with their driver line-up.

Jumping from GrN to WRC won't be easy. If Wilson would like to build top level driver, I agree he needs some experience with class 2 first, to see how it goes. Probably after successful year or two he could do WRC.

[miniwintz]

Lukanuk was very impressive in ERC Latvia

Just out of interest what is the top speed of the Evo compared to an R5, RRC, or S2000 car ?
Top speed around 200 km/h-220 km/h IIRC (depending on gearbox ratio), so on par with WRC cars on straight roads. But cornering speed, agility, braking and of course acceleration are much better on a S2000/R5/RRC/WRC.

[ThomasS]

Top speed around 200 km/h-220 km/h IIRC (depending on gearbox ratio), so on par with WRC cars on straight roads. But cornering speed, agility, braking and of course acceleration are much better on a S2000/R5/RRC/WRC.

Cheers .

I know finland is characterised by fast flowing stages , Latvia looked similar in that regard . Of course with ice and less crests ?

[dupanton]

Lukanuk was very impressive in ERC Latvia



Everyone knows he is fast on snowy and gravel stages that are fast and fluent, like in Latvia/Finland etc.

But how will he perform on slow and rough gravel stages? Or on Tarmac?? WRC is more then Finland and Sweden (and maybe New Zealand is similar). A lot more!

[ThomasS]

Everyone knows he is fast on snowy and gravel stages that are fast and fluent, like in Latvia/Finland etc.

But how will he perform on slow and rough gravel stages? Or on Tarmac?? WRC is more then Finland and Sweden (and maybe New Zealand is similar). A lot more!

True.

So he's a one trick pony then ?

[sindroms]

True.

So he's a one trick pony then ?

I would say no. Yes, he don't have rough gravel or tarmac experience, but... He is some kind of golden nugget or diamond which may become brilliant, believe me. Besides he have right attitude - quality that some of his compatriots lacks very much. Now he needs to move further.
So far it all reminds me way how Marcus Gronholm came in to WRC...

[dupanton]

True.

So he's a one trick pony then ?

I don't say he is. I just say we don't know, and there for Wilson better try him out first in ERC/WRC2 :)

[Juha_Koo]

But how will he perform on slow and rough gravel stages? Or on Tarmac?? WRC is more then Finland and Sweden (and maybe New Zealand is similar). A lot more!

Well, Baltian rallies have atleast some slower/rougher sections, although they're often quite sandy-based so not "rough" in the meaning of car-pounding rocks.

I can only imagine how precise he can be on slow roads if his lines are so crazy/precise while going 5th – 6th gear... And btw, Lukyanuk has tarmac experience from one rally in Russia, "Rally Masters Show".

[dimviii]

​World Rally Championship - News - Mikkelsen in co-driver hunt (http://www.wrc.com/news/mikkelsen-in-co-driver-hunt/?fid=18930)

[Mirek]

Another one who suffered this kind of injury after the HANS was brought in. Those were very rare before. Here we had like 20 cases of broken lumbar vertebrae in compression shocks (such as hitting something from below, going to a ditch, big jump etc.) since HANS was introduced and almost none before.

[TheFlyingTuga]

The traditional HANS system is very bad for your shoulders and spine! In rought stages with lot's of bumps and rocks "kills" you! There are a new system, that is not so hard on the shoulders at least, but I didn't try it yet. Anyway, I must say that in my two big crashes (a big roll in Latvala style, and a side crash to a wall) the Hans did what it's suposed to do! My shoulders hurted yes, but my driver that was not using it suffer a lot more than I do!

[noel157]

​World Rally Championship - News - Mikkelsen in co-driver hunt (http://www.wrc.com/news/mikkelsen-in-co-driver-hunt/?fid=18930)

I'm sure he still has Ola's number in his phone..........

[Jeppe]

I'm sure he still has Ola's number in his phone..........

...and change back his pace note language to Norwegian. I doubt seriously..

[noel157]

...and change back his pace note language to Norwegian. I doubt seriously..

He speaks very good English, why should it be a problem?

[jonlint]

Another one who suffered this kind of injury after the HANS was brought in. Those were very rare before. Here we had like 20 cases of broken lumbar vertebrae in compression shocks (such as hitting something from below, going to a ditch, big jump etc.) since HANS was introduced and almost none before.

Does anyone know if the Simpson Hybrid HANS also has the same problem? (link below)
Simpson Racing - Hybrid, SFI & FIA APPROVED [HY] - $0.00 : (http://simpsonraceproducts.com/products/?main_page=product_info&cPath=591&products_id=10566&sort=)
http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/photos/p65997n3.jpg

[Juha_Koo]

Another one who suffered this kind of injury after the HANS was brought in. Those were very rare before. Here we had like 20 cases of broken lumbar vertebrae in compression shocks (such as hitting something from below, going to a ditch, big jump etc.) since HANS was introduced and almost none before.

Why don't people use Simpson Hybrid?


I'm sure he still has Ola's number in his phone..........

I believe Floene is busy with Tidemand...

[Mirek]

Why don't people use Simpson Hybrid?I would turn the question. Why they are forced to use something which is not 100% and in the same time also very expensive (for most of privateers)? If it was voluntary, anybody could choose if he wanted to use it or not.

[ThomasS]

I would turn the question. Why they are forced to use something which is not 100% and in the same time also very expensive (for most of privateers)? If it was voluntary, anybody could choose if he wanted to use it or not.

Why not make roll cages and helmets and overalls optional then?


We all know that the science points to Neck restraints saving lives from Basilar skull fractures , which are generally fatal. Your compatriot Vjtechcha Stajf would attest to that I'm sure.


The device is used in all forms of Motorsport and even BMX and Mountain biking downhill. For the price vs safety benefit you would be mad not to wear one.

[makinen_fan]

Why not make roll cages and helmets and overalls optional then?


We all know that the science points to Neck restraints saving lives from Basilar skull fractures , which are generally fatal. Your compatriot Vjtechcha Stajf would attest to that I'm sure.


The device is used in all forms of Motorsport and even BMX and Mountain biking downhill. For the price vs safety benefit you would be mad not to wear one.

You misinterpret what Mirek saying. For other kind of motorsport, Hans device has proved to provide extra safety, although in rallying we have plenty of examples as Mirek noted that it caused additional injuries that would not have been observed if HANS was not use (maybe?). So it's contribution to avoid injuries in rallying is a bit questionable.

Btw is Kosciuszko's injury also related to this?

[ThomasS]

Well yes it could be that the vibration and shock energy is being transferred down the spine due to the wearing of neck restraints but it's also probable that incidences of Cervical injuries and complaints has decreased since the introduction of neck restraints.

The introduction of the helmet to motor sport increased the incidence of cervical injuries due to the extra mass that the neck has to support. But you don't see any suggestions that the helmet be made an optional item because of that.

Motor rallying has always had a high prevalence of musculoskeletal injuries because of it's very nature, the suggestion that lower lumbar and thoracic injuries has increased due to the use of neck restraints is at best anecdotal.

To me its academic anyhow ,having a spinal compression or fracture is still a better outcome than being paralysed at the neck or dead.

[TheFlyingTuga]

Why don't people use Simpson Hybrid?

Because who already made the investment to buy the HANS, will not buy another system, at least as when the HANS have homologations. I don't know about in the rest of the world, but in Portugal HANS it's expensive, as well as the Simpson Hybrid.

[Mirek]

ThomaS, how many of Your friends have suffered broken vertebrae in otherwise minor accidents? You can come here and tell them man to man that what happened to them is for their own good. Doubt they would agree though.

[TyPat107]

Why don't people use Simpson Hybrid?
..

I wonder if it has more to do with it being new or because the fia homologated one is so expensive. To be honest I didn't find the older one comfortable at all which I why I went a different route. But with helmets expiring this year, I will be ordering the new Hybrid at the same time since I feel it will reduce my chance of injury compared to my current setup.

[Mihai]

Is he rich?

I doubt he's full of ca$h. Or if he actually is rich, he manages to hide his wealth very convincingly. And he's not very young either at age 31.

eWRC-results.com - profile Alexey Lukyanuk (http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=16873&t=Alexey-Lukyanuk)

He would need a handful of years to prove that he's fast on up-to-date machinery, aka other than N4 Evo X. He really is quick on fast-flowing stages, but it's not a given fact that Lukyanuk can be fast elsewhere outside the Baltic & Finland region. A comparison with Gigi Galli would come to my mind - he wasn't very young either when he finally got his chance with Mitsubishi's factory team in the top class.

[ThomasS]

ThomaS, how many of Your friends have suffered broken vertebrae in otherwise minor accidents? You can come here and tell them man to man that what happened to them is for their own good. Doubt they would agree though.

That's an emotional response. And I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you saying you think Neck braces are the cause of increased incidences of spinal injury ? I'm sure you have some stories but they are anecdotes and nothing to make any inference from.


- Even before neck braces were introduced to the sport , incidences of Lumbar injury and fatigue were higher than cervical injuries.


- Neck braces have reduced cervical spine injuries hugely but they also reduce the severity of post race fatigue and pain that crew suffer during any event. Especially co-drivers , their heads are down a lot and they have nothing to hang on to like the driver.


- Crew fitness has a huge part to play in the bodies ability to cope with vibration and shock. Most amateur crews have marginal fitness and strength compared to a professional driver . A neck brace would be even more important I would have thought.


Lets face it your head is doing a great impression of a bladder on a stick.

[Mirek]

That's an emotional response. And I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you saying you think Neck braces are the cause of increased incidences of spinal injury ? I'm sure you have some stories but they are anecdotes and nothing to make any inference from.


- Even before neck braces were introduced to the sport , incidences of Lumbar injury and fatigue were higher than cervical injuries.


- Neck braces have reduced cervical spine injuries hugely but they also reduce the severity of post race fatigue and pain that crew suffer during any event. Especially co-drivers , their heads are down a lot and they have nothing to hang on to like the driver.


- Crew fitness has a huge part to play in the bodies ability to cope with vibration and shock. Most amateur crews have marginal fitness and strength compared to a professional driver . A neck brace would be even more important I would have thought.


Lets face it your head is doing a great impression of a bladder on a stick.

There was a months long investigation done by our driver's association in co-operation with number of specialized doctors. As a result the association asked our ASN to change status of HANS from mandatory to voluntary as they found direct connection between the use of HANS and the new phenomena of broken lumbar vertebrae after HANS introduction (You are wrong in Your assumption that this kind of injuries was frequent before - it was very rare). The request was also directed to FIA. There was no result at all so as a next step there was a petition of drivers and co-driver's against the obligation of HANS use. It was signed by some 200 drivers and co-drivers but the result from ASN was again zero. Only repeating of same phrases like You do. Nobody denies very positive effect of HANS in case of frontal impact but on the contrary to circuits most of rally crashes are not frontal ones. Anyway if somebody wants to use it on voluntary basis, no problem. Fact is that to make HANS mandatory in all events run under FIA rules created demand for thousands of devices and that was a huge business. When that market was filled they put HANS into cross-country events where it has even less meaning, especially for truckers where it also limits side-visibility which is very dangerous when driving close to "small" competitors such as buggies or even bikes. I have never heard any positive word from cross country crews about HANS but a lot of complains.

Anyway You are reported for constant infractions. You don't need to reply because I will not read it.