[WRC] News & rumours (part II)

[N.O.T]

There is no say on that VW indeed gave him a 2 year contract but Loeb felt it was too less and signed a contract with Citroën for 2012 and 2013 is an option??

2013 is on option only for retirement he cannot go to another manufacturer.

WV gave him 2 years with next year only for extensive testing, he said that the testing program would be so heavy that it would be like taking part in the rallies...which is good because it shows that WV are going to work hard hard hard...and usually working hard pays.

[mousti]

@Andy would be easy to earn then but I'm very sure he'll do the championship next year. Yeah indeed about Gilbert I'm sure he probably earns 2 million a year for now or maybe even less that's why he probably going to move to BMC.

@NOT: I agree with that. Sometimes I can do that with you :D

[Viking]

Does anyone else but me find it strange that Olivier Quesnel, head of Citroen Sport has not commented on this??

[rasprodaga-odegdi.ru]

That is the Jarmo Mahonen, chairman for the rally commission.

[N.O.T]

Does anyone else but me find it strange that Olivier Quesnel, head of Citroen Sport has not commented on this??

I find it very starnge and intruiging...

i think quesnel will go at Leman series or WTCC or even DTM....

[Viking]

I find it very starnge and intruiging...

i think quesnel will go at Leman series or WTCC or even DTM....

Why did my Irony/Sarcasm warning light start blinking? ;)

I just sort of think Wilson or even Kris Nissen would have said something if he signed for them...

[Gregor-y]

When I read this a brilliant quote from Clarkson came to mind..."poo is comming out"....

I think this could put a nail into M-Sport's coffin lid.
For me it was this bit in the article below your post:

I had a proposal from VW, which I must admit had my full attention. I think this is the proposal that convinced me to stay in rallying. I have been in contact with Carlos Sainz, with whom I still have a very good relationship and the challenge would be to develop a new car and to try to win a title with a new manufacturer...

The means of VW are very important, superior to Citroën that is clear. For them testing is not limited. I would test on every surface for the WRC next year, without having the pleasure of the competition and also without the certainty of having a car at the end of the day. In the end, my schedule was not going to be very different either. This is assuming VW is as serious as Loeb lets on, of course. And that VW can find a good driver.

[Allyc85]

Interesting to see that on Autosport Pantano replacing Wilson in Indy car is bigger news than Loeb signing on again ;)

[Barreis]

Aha. 'Cos this's not professional sport, it's a hobby of rich kids. :D

[tfp]

Aha. 'Cos this's not professional sport, it's a hobby of rich kids. :D

:laugh: ;)

[Allyc85]

Aha. 'Cos this's not professional sport, it's a hobby of rich kids. :D

er yea, makes sense... back to being blocked for you ;)

[Bobcat]

MaxRally | News | Sordo: Loeb was wrong not to join VW (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/sordo_loeb_was_wrong_not_to_join_vw/)

“It’s good for him but he should have taken the risk and gone to Volkswagen,” said Sordo. “Everybody knows he is the best but he is in the best car with the best team and this will continue for two more years. It is an easy way for him.”

[Barreis]

Isn't it right to be in the best possible team?!

[tfp]

Isn't it right to be in the best possible team?!

What is the point when you have achieved what loeb has? Wouldnt it prove more if he were to go to another team with a poorer car and still win there? E.G if he joined the PSWRT:-) and became the first privateer to win a rally since 1993? Or join ari vatenen as a privateer world champion? That would be impressive.
Instead however, he stays risk free with the same team, doing the same thing. :s nore:
Those are very fair comments from Sordo.

[Barreis]

To me seems like another desperate wrc driver.

[sollitt]

Those are very fair comments from Sordo. Sour grapes would be more accurate I think.

[Bobcat]

Isn't it right to be in the best possible team?!
Maybe it is not for the best driver.

[Mirek]

Only a fool choses what's not the best for him in current situation...

[Tomi]

Maybe it is not for the best driver.

Dont you think that everyone does what is best for them self, what would be the point in changing from winning car and team?

[N.O.T]

Sordo has a valid point...

after all Sordo moved from citroen to Mini for the sole reason to prove that he can be a LOSER in both a winning team and a non-winning one.

Little crying nobody kids like sordo and Latvala, who we do not even know if they are getting payed for what they do or their managers pays for them should think before talking about the greatest rally driver of all times.

[Gregor-y]

Wouldnt it prove more if he were to go to another team with a poorer car and still win there? E.G if he joined the PSWRT:-) and became the first privateer to win a rally since 1993? Or join ari vatenen as a privateer world champion?
Didn't he technically do that with Kronos in 2006? ;)

[N.O.T]

Didn't he technically do that with Kronos in 2006? ;)

yes and the "private" team of vatanen was as "private" as was the kronos citroen of Loeb.

[danon]

"Never change the winning formula" - Sebastian Loeb :champion:

[Doon]

yes and the "private" team of vatanen was as "private" as was the kronos citroen of Loeb.

Agree with you NOT. A private entrant is one who is independant and has no ties, i.e finances his car separately without any afilliation to a works team.

[danon]

... A private entrant is one who is independant...

Independent?!

No such a thing.

Try again. ;)

[N.O.T]

Independent no...non financed yes.

Both vatanen and Loeb were payed drivers during their private years.....so they weren't that private.

[tfp]

Sordo has a valid point...

after all Sordo moved from citroen to Mini for the sole reason to prove that he can be a LOSER in both a winning team and a non-winning one.

Little crying nobody kids like sordo and Latvala, who we do not even know if they are getting payed for what they do or their managers pays for them should think before talking about the greatest rally driver of all times.

Whoosh-Tish! :p

[mousti]

What is the point when you have achieved what loeb has? Wouldnt it prove more if he were to go to another team with a poorer car and still win there? E.G if he joined the PSWRT:-) and became the first privateer to win a rally since 1993? Or join ari vatenen as a privateer world champion? That would be impressive.

U know he already did that? The year with Kronos, and believe me if he would do it now with PSWRT suddenly the DS3 will fly ;)

Some people here above had the same idea about it :D

[tfp]

U know he already did that? The year with Kronos, and believe me if he would do it now with PSWRT suddenly the DS3 will fly ;)

Some people here above had the same idea about it :D

I was never sure of the exact arrangements of that, I once saw a programe on motors tv about the WRC past events, talking about Vatenans championship, and how loeb and kronos citroen's victory "diddn't count" for some reason or other? If ostberg won in sweden this year, would that count as a privateer win or not?

[xavier]

What is the point when you have achieved what loeb has? Wouldnt it prove more if he were to go to another team with a poorer car and still win there? E.G if he joined the PSWRT:-) and became the first privateer to win a rally since 1993? Or join ari vatenen as a privateer world champion? That would be impressive.
Instead however, he stays risk free with the same team, doing the same thing. :s nore:
Those are very fair comments from Sordo.

Does anyone think that Usain Bolt should decide to race with a backpack filled with a 5 Kg weight, just so it make the challenge harder? Should Tiger Wood (at the time of his dominance) elect to go on the Master with 8 clubs, just so it's more challenging? Will Anand, in the upcoming Chess world championship should give Boris Gelfand a pawn advantage because he is clearly favorite?

Why motorsport should be different: it's hard enough to win. Why volunteer any disadvantage?

Motorsport is mix driver/team, part of challenge for a driver is to get in the best car (and vice-versa).

[sollitt]

xavier, you're absolutely correct. The other thing to consider is that with Loeb still at Citroen the benchmark for other drivers to attain remains the same (high) and, should any of the others get up to win they, and we, will know they've beaten the best, at the top of his game, in the best team. Had he moved on to another team there would never have been that certainty and that is probably unfair.

[Miika]

Just wondering what was Loeb´s biggest motivator to sign a new contract and continue in the same old comfortable enviroment after a decade of driving there, is it the challenge set by Ogier or VW only testing next year, or is it about getting two more titles before the big challenge arrives? Anyways I hope Ogier makes him regret he signed a new deal, maybe starting from today´s stages, because if/when Ogier learns how to set the pace on tarmac then Loeb will be screwed.

[N.O.T]

I like where this is going....

i feed on your tears and pain....

2 more years of sadness...


LOL.

[Miika]

Yes for a pessimistic person like me it would be horrifying to see something positively surprising in this series, thank goodness nothing happened yet. Since Malcolm´s kitchen won´t deliver anything, it is all down to VW to make things happen.

[Tomi]

Anyways I hope Ogier makes him regret he signed a new deal, maybe starting from today´s stages, because if/when Ogier learns how to set the pace on tarmac then Loeb will be screwed.

Now how could he make him regret, Loeb gets full pay no matter what Ogier does, and he still has the Championships nobody cant take away.

[Miika]

The plan is two more titles, I doubt he plans on leaving the sport after a defeat instead of a title. Didn´t he just say he doesn´t want to end up like michaelschumacher at mercedes, outdriven by a younger team-mate.

[Tomi]

Didn´t he just say he doesn´t want to end up like michaelschumacher at mercedes, outdriven by a younger team-mate.

Yes he said, but maybe he did mean, to go away for a few years, and come back only to find out that the speed is gone.

[Motorsportfun]

Independent no...non financed yes.

Both vatanen and Loeb were payed drivers during their private years.....so they weren't that private.

Strange, I agree with you. Another example: is Block a privateer? :D

[Tomi]

is Block a privateer? :D

No, he is a shoe salesman.

[Motorsportfun]

No, he is a shoe salesman.

Not since a couple of years... :D

[Tomi]

Not since a couple of years... :D

Really? Why does he then drive like one.

[focus206]

really? Why does he then drive like one.

lol :D

[Motorsportfun]

Really? Why does he then drive like one.

hahah on't know, ask him :D

btw, interesting to see Timo Bernard in his Porsche GT car :)

[vkangas]

Timo Jouhki told to MTV3 that it's very likely that either Mikko or J-M is going to drive VW after next year.

[N.O.T]

very nice...VW sure needs money.

I hope its Latvala.

Ford is falling apart at all levels allowing a manager to talk about drivers under contract...LOL...i want to see Slowson in a works fiesta.

[OldF]

Jouhki also told that JML has a more secure contract with M-Sport than Mikko. There's have been discussions with VW but no real negotiations yet.

Mikko said that he's been pleased with the atmosphere at M-Sport but "why not".

Remembering the interview by Colin Clark with a VW representative at NORF (I don't remember he's name or position) he said that there could be a possibility for a junior team also.

Would be great to see 4 VWs in 2013 or even in some events in 2012.

[AndyRAC]

It might be better if they split the 2 Finns up - whether VW is the right place is another matter though.....

[pettersolberg29]

Remembering the interview by Colin Clark with a VW representative at NORF (I don't remember he's name or position) he said that there could be a possibility for a junior team also.

Would be great to see 4 VWs in 2013 or even in some events in 2012.

My guess at the moment (an educated guess ;) ) is Mikko and Petter in the official team, and Hanninen and Mikkelsen in the 2nd team. Although I've also heard Henning Solberg's name being mentioned as part of the development, and then as a 3rd official driver perhaps?

[alleskids]

Does Henning have some history in developping rallycars? Sainz sad VW needs experience testdrivers to have quality feedback, so drivers like Petter or Henning or Mikko wil be needed hard, but will Mikko (or Latvalla) want to sacrifice 2012 and drive S2000 in WRC? Petter has no other option, but Henning does have a 2012 budget, but could be unwilling to spend it on Ford again.

[AndyRAC]

My guess at the moment (an educated guess ;) ) is Mikko and Petter in the official team, and Hanninen and Mikkelsen in the 2nd team. Although I've also heard Henning Solberg's name being mentioned as part of the development, and then as a 3rd official driver perhaps?

Who is the Tarmac driver? Get a gravel driver and a Tarmac driver, hopefully one of them will be an excellent test & development driver.

[danon]

...Mikko and Petter in the official team, and Hanninen and Mikkelsen in the 2nd team...

Hanninen must get the works official #1 at VW.

No time for second best, at all.

The best to beat the rest!

[OldF]

My guess at the moment (an educated guess ;) ) is Mikko and Petter in the official team, and Hanninen and Mikkelsen in the 2nd team. Although I've also heard Henning Solberg's name being mentioned as part of the development, and then as a 3rd official driver perhaps?

Would be a good base for the team. If the junior team will happen, what arise in my thoughts is how junior has these drivers have to be? Is it young drivers with some experience or young drivers with experience (Mikkelsen) or a experienced driver with some achievments already (Hänninen)?

[OldF]

Who is the Tarmac driver?

Hänninen

[Tomi]

Does Henning have some history in developping rallycars?

If he would have, dont you think he would have been used by Ford.

[pettersolberg29]

Hanninen is becoming a very competent tarmac driver - also, there are very few tarmac specialists anymore, with only Sordo and Loeb stronger on tarmac than gravel.

I don't think Henning has any development experience, but he is the best mechanic in the WRC by far and understands rally cars as much as anyone so may be a good choice.

I view that VW will run a situation similar to Citroen Junior Team i.e. one young driver who has a contract for years, while there will be one more experienced driver, but one who has shown strong ability (e.g. Hanninen).

[OldF]

We should not forget that Mikko is also a mechanic. But who would be the best to develop a wrc car?

[Plan9]

My thinking is 1) Official VW team- Hanninen + another familiar face
2) Secondary team with a up-and-commer + gentleman driver
3) Customers/ s2000 operation
Probably a bit early to guess who will be in teams 1 and 2 but i think there will be a middle eastern element in 3. Also, Henning si a great mechanic and has spent many hours developing the WRC fiesta.

[Tomi]

But who would be the best to develop a wrc car?
Grönholm by far

[tfp]

We should not forget that Mikko is also a mechanic. But who would be the best to develop a wrc car?

Diddn't know Mikko is a mechanic? :) I know that Kris Meeke is also a fully trained mechanic, could be handy if endurance rallys like safari ever come back.

I thought VW wanted younger, home grown drivers? I'd love to see petter driving for VW though.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Haha I like this "Gentleman" "GentleBoy" driver speak :) :)

[AndyRAC]

Willy RAMPF | Best of Rally Live (http://www.best-of-rallylive.com/en/tag/willy-rampf/)

Willy Rampf to VW Motorsport.......

[OldF]

Here’s some printed about the rumours of JML’s or Mikko’s move to VW.

The interview of Jouhki (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2F2011%2F08%2F1376435%2Fmanagerin-kohupaljastus-latvala-tai-hirvonen-jattamassa-fordin)

Mikko’s thoughts (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2F2011%2F08%2F1376454%2Fnain-hirvonen-kommentoi-mahdollista-tallisiirtoa)

Funny google translate, Hirvonen = Solberg?

[GigiGalliNo1]

Official - Kimi to skip Rally Australia!

World Rally Championship - News - Raikkonen to skip Rally Australia (http://wrc.com/news/raikkonen-to-skip-rally-australia/?fid=15257)

[N.O.T]

nice...

hopefully no more kimi in the WRC next year..we had enough of him, his overestimated rally skills and his horde of girl fans.

Good decision for him and for the rally world.

[focus206]

we had enough of him, his overestimated rally skills and his horde of girl fans.

Not his fault if someone overrated him (neither if he has many fangirls :D ), for what I expect from a former F1 driver going into WRC, he did more than enough, expecially on gravel.
By the way, I also think he won't be in WRC in 2012.

[Rallyper]

nice...

hopefully no more kimi in the WRC next year..we had enough of him, his overestimated rally skills and his horde of girl fans.

Good decision for him and for the rally world.

You have your ups and downs. This one is even not worth answering but I´ll do it.

Kimi´s progress this year could even you see. Last rally included. No comments on that one?

Kimi will drive WRC next year with even more sucess!

[Mirek]

nice...

hopefully no more kimi in the WRC next year..we had enough of him, his overestimated rally skills and his horde of girl fans.

Good decision for him and for the rally world.

Hopefully no more b.u.l.l.s.h.i.t. like this. Too much is too much, N.O.T...

[Nornbugger]

nice...

hopefully no more kimi in the WRC next year..we had enough of him, his overestimated rally skills and his horde of girl fans.

Good decision for him and for the rally world.

Kimi did well in germany, 0.6 sec per km down on Petter over the event in a similar car

[julkki]

nice...

hopefully no more kimi in the WRC next year..we had enough of him, his overestimated rally skills and his horde of girl fans.

Good decision for him and for the rally world.

As a rallyfan I just hope that there is much as possible decent WRC cars with decent drivers to follow. So N.O.T you think that if one can't challenge Loeb and co. one shouldn't compete? You would pay to go to the stage to watch only Loeb, Hirvonen, Latvala and Ogier to go by?

[Bobcat]

No, only Ogier and Loeb. ;)

[Woodeye]

Hopefully no more b.u.l.l.s.h.i.t. like this. Too much is too much, N.O.T...

What can you expect from a village idiot with no life? It's been years and years like this.

[tfp]

You have your ups and downs. This one is even not worth answering but I´ll do it.

Kimi´s progress this year could even you see. Last rally included. No comments on that one?

Kimi will drive WRC next year with even more sucess!

While I agree he has improved, I'm not too sure if we will see him next year. He was very unhappy in germany, and seems(from what Ive read, anyway) to be happy(er)in nascar.
Hats off to him though, I always wondered how an F1 driver would stack up against WRC drivers.


No, only Ogier and Loeb. ;)
:laugh:

[pantealex]

nice...

hopefully no more kimi in the WRC next year..we had enough of him, his overestimated rally skills and his horde of girl fans.

Good decision for him and for the rally world.

Kimi was "best of the rest" in Germany.

So, you want bigger gaps between "Big5" and rest?

[logic]

Why do you all keep replying to him?

[danon]

He is too lazy to talk let alone drive.
Why waste time.
And money.

Wake u-u-up... :arrows:

[N.O.T]

i am really sorry that so many people are going to be sad next year....

it was a nice publicity stunt that worked pretty well though...for some at least.

[Barreis]

Mini WRC team officials praise Kris Meeke's Rallye Deutschland performance - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93890)

[Tomi]

Mini WRC team officials praise Kris Meeke's Rallye Deutschland performance - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93890)

Lol, a media made champion on the make.

[Gregor-y]

Now now; Meeke didn't do half bad before his troubles and Sordo definitely knows this rally so I'm not surprised at the result. And Britain does need a new hero.

[tfp]

Now now; Meeke didn't do half bad before his troubles and Sordo definitely knows this rally so I'm not surprised at the result. And Britain does need a new hero.

This is true, unfortunately!

[focus206]

Seems like Nasser Al-Attiyah wants to compete in WRC next year
Google PYeklada (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=cs&sl=cs&tl=en&u=http://www.ewrc.cz/ewrc/)

If I understood well, he wants to compete with his own team (the car should be a DS3 or a Fiesta) and he also talks about a 5 years plan for a young Qatari driver... still if I understood well.

[vkangas]

The new technical director of VW team is Willy Rampf, previously known as F1 team Sauber's technical director.
Volkswagen pestasi Rampfin tekniseksi johtajaksi - Ralli - Turun Sanomat (http://www.ts.fi/moottoriurheilu/ralli/249771.html)

[Plan9]

This is true, unfortunately!

To be honest, I am quite surprise Meeke does not come up for mention more here. He is probable going to be the driver that does for WRC what Colin did for it not so long ago.

[wildsir]

Lol, a media made champion on the make.
Yeah, like Latvala has been for 7 years

[wildsir]

Mini WRC team officials praise Kris Meeke's Rallye Deutschland performance - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93890)
good for him.

Not sure off many other drivers who have set top 3 times in their WRC Tarmac debut

[pantealex]

good for him.

Not sure off many other drivers who have set top 3 times in their WRC Tarmac debut

Kimi set fastest time in his WRC tarmac debut :)

[wildsir]

:) Yeah, he has progressed in leaps and bounds since.

Has Monsieur Ogier has been summoned to higher the PSA Godfathers?

AUTOhebdo.fr | Ogier convoqué par la Direction de Citroën (http://j.mp/nFHiqg)

Volkswagen is much closer to join WRC in 2013.
Volkswagen tested in WRC Rally Germany the Skoda Fabia S2000 with the German Christian Riedemann and Dutch driver Hans Weijs. How you know the new VW Polo R WRC will be based on Skoda Fabia. The manufacture from Wolfsburg plans is to join WRC in 2013.
The test in Germany last weekend was successful for the team while the both rally pilots finished respectively 13th and 15th. Christian Riedemann is a 24-years old starting his career in 2006 at eighteen years of age in Rally Oberland. Hans Weijsis also 24-years old who started his career at seventeen years of age in 2004 for a selection day of KNAF Talent First, a big talent scouting by the Dutch federation.
“Our test run at the Rally Germany went without the slightest problems and again provided us with many new findings. After three victories at the Dakar Rally we’ve got to re-organize ourselves in some areas and gather as much experience as possible. Our team had done a good job of preparing itself and accomplished the mission without making any mistakes,” said Volkswagen Motorsport Director Kris Nissen. It is expecting new tests of Skoda Fabia S2000 soon the sport car using to build the new Polo R WRC.

[Barreis]

Sebastien Loeb says VW's attempts to lure him from Citroen were tempting - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93906)

[sindroms]

Jari Ketomaa today confirmed about taking a part in at least 6 rounds in WRC next year. It's still not clear about car's brand... There is also plans to drive selected IRC rounds.

[Motorsportfun]

I bet 1 Euro on the silly season:

Loeb-P.Solberg [Citroen]
Ogier(or Tanak)-Latvala [Ford]
Meeke-Sordo [MINI]
Hirvonen-Hanninen [VW]

[N.O.T]

No
No
Yes
No

[Motorsportfun]

No
No
Yes
No

What's your bet? :D

[cali]

Tänak has said to estonian press that he will not be in WRC 2012. Initial plan is to run one more season in SWRC.

[Motorsportfun]

Tänak has said to estonian press that he will not be in WRC 2012. Initial plan is to run one more season in SWRC.

In fact, as he's signed with M-Sport, would be "only" the 2nd choice. But I really think Ogier will be the boost Ford needs now for tarmac and winter developement. Hirvonen is anything else than his shadow, compared to 2 years ago, so he needs to change team. I think Ford of Europe will give an extra-budget to pick Ogier...

[cali]

In fact, as he's signed with M-Sport, would be "only" the 2nd choice. But I really think Ogier will be the boost Ford needs now for tarmac and winter developement. Hirvonen is anything else than his shadow, compared to 2 years ago, so he needs to change team. I think Ford of Europe will give an extra-budget to pick Ogier...
It would be nice if Ogier would move to Ford. But at first we need to have confirmation that Ford will run in WRC 2012. Secondly, M-Sport needs to step up the game and be more competitive or they even may have problems with Mini.

[Motorsportfun]

It would be nice if Ogier would move to Ford. But at first we need to have confirmation that Ford will run in WRC 2012. Secondly, M-Sport needs to step up the game and be more competitive or they even may have problems with Mini.

Maybe they solve much problems with some more budget by Ford of Europe; more money to test and try to fix the various issues, more results...

[bretddog]

Come on, use some sense. Ogier has more than a decade left in the sport, and the driver on top of any list. He will never leave Citroen if not for a team with better capital/prospects like potentially VW. Latvala and Hirvonen should also flee on first opportunity. M-Sport has dig into a hole, and I think they need to PROVE their way out of it before any of the top 4-5 names sign any paper with them again.

[N.O.T]

I doubt any driver with ambition right now sees ford as an option nowadays...I really hope tanak has a contract that can break easily otherwise i think he is in trouble.

as for the bet for 2012

citroen Ogier/Loeb
Ford Hirvonen/Latvala
Mini Sordo/Meeke
WV Hanninen/various guys depending on the event

I find it hard to believe that someone in a works team would leave competition at the highest level to join a testing season and ladycup competition, its way too risky.

[darkstar]

i think there are several drivers who would love to drive for ford...

[AndyRAC]

i think there are several drivers who would love to drive for ford...

And they're all mentally disturbed...... ;)

[darkstar]

due to lack of options they arent...i think even p. solberg would take the chance with ford to get back to a payed drive and so would every driver who pay´s for his drive himself.

[cali]

Ogier to Ford?
Interesting articles :)
Basically Ogier is not satisfied with team orders and that Loeb has been promised to have some "guarantees" when he signed new contract with Citroen.
Also Wilson is more than keen to sign Ogier which means that one of the finns will have to leave.

Ogier saattaa syrjäyttää suomalaisen Fordilta - MTV3.fi - Urheilu - Ralli - Uutiset (http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/08/1378606/ogier-saattaa-syrjayttaa-suomalaisen-fordilta)

Wilson haluaa Ogierin Fordille - Ralli - Turun Sanomat (http://www.ts.fi/moottoriurheilu/ralli/250835.html)

It is possible:
VW - Hanninen and Sordo
Don't forget Carlos Sainz who also can recommend someone .... like Sordo.

[N.O.T]

Ogier has contract up to 2013.... and him going to ford would destroy his career.

[cali]

Ogier has contract up to 2013.... and him going to ford would destroy his career.

Free translation from the last article:

"Ogierin tilanteen Gales kuittasi:
– Ogierilla on sopimus meidän kanssamme tästä kaudesta, mutta en halua kommentoida vuosia 2012 ja 2013."


Jean-Marc Gales stated:

Ogier has a contract with us for this season, but I do not want to make any comments about forthcoming seasons 2012 and 2013




But ofcourse this news could be BS as well ...

[AndyRAC]

http://digitaledition.autosport.com/issue/2011/covers/25082011.jpg

[N.O.T]

Free translation from the last article:

"Ogierin tilanteen Gales kuittasi:
– Ogierilla on sopimus meidän kanssamme tästä kaudesta, mutta en halua kommentoida vuosia 2012 ja 2013."


Jean-Marc Gales stated:

Ogier has a contract with us for this season, but I do not want to make any comments about forthcoming seasons 2012 and 2013




But ofcourse this news could be BS as well ...

what about this then ??? back in 2010

Sébastien Ogier: “I’d like to thank Citroën for renewing its confidence in me, and what’s more, for three seasons! I made my world championship debut with this team, and I’ve always said that my priority was to stay with them. I’m thrilled at the idea of driving the new generation World Rally Cars, and of defending the colours of the make at the topmost level. Like Sébastien, I’m fully concentrated on the end of this season starting with the Finnish Rally, where I’ll be part of the Citroën Total World Rally Team for the first time!”

[N.O.T]

http://digitaledition.autosport.com/issue/2011/covers/25082011.jpg

good for him

and better for us

[Viking]

IRDA World Drivers ranking at 24/08/2011

IRDA - World Drivers ranking at 24/08/2011 (http://www.worldrallyranking.com/ranking.asp?Archivio=2011&Tipo=1&Home=1)

[DonJippo]

what about this then ??? back in 2010

Sébastien Ogier: “I’d like to thank Citroën for renewing its confidence in me, and what’s more, for three seasons! I made my world championship debut with this team, and I’ve always said that my priority was to stay with them. I’m thrilled at the idea of driving the new generation World Rally Cars, and of defending the colours of the make at the topmost level. Like Sébastien, I’m fully concentrated on the end of this season starting with the Finnish Rally, where I’ll be part of the Citroën Total World Rally Team for the first time!”

It's very common that these long term contracts are full of options I believe it would be quite easy for Ogier to jump to another team if he so wants for next season.

[focus206]

good for him

and better for us

"us" who? You and the 2 other rallyfans who expected Kimi to win rallies or just like to bash him down?
Seriously, one day you should tell me what results did you expected from a former F1 driver...

[N.O.T]

"us" who? You and the 2 other rallyfans who expected Kimi to win rallies or just like to bash him down?
Seriously, one day you should tell me what results did you expected from a former F1 driver...

i expected nothing from a F1 driver....

I also expected the media would treat him like a F1 driver and not a rally driver with a future in the sport

I also expected that some rally fans would treat him like a f1 driver

there is a thread about kimi where you can see my views on him ...search it, some even had almost daily news on his rally career and even diagrams with his progress...but somehow they dissapeared after they realised it was just a fluke and a publicity stunt.

[focus206]

i expected nothing from a F1 driver....

I also expected the media would treat him like a F1 driver and not a rally driver with a future in the sport

I also expected that some rally fans would treat him like a f1 driver

there is a thread about kimi where you can see my views on him ...search it, some even had almost daily news on his rally career and even diagrams with his progress...but somehow they dissapeared after they realised it was just a fluke and a publicity stunt.

Ok, I understand your point, but frankly, even if few fans does, I never heard the media or a high number of fans saying that Kimi would have won this and that. To me, what he did in the WRC is more than enough. Instead, I heard all this things about Block, who is neither a shadow of a WRC driver.
Anyway, neither Kimi or Ken said something like "I will win so many things" so, they did nothing wrong. If you want someone to give the fault, they are these kind of fans, not Raikkonen himself.

[pettersolberg29]

Also Wilson is more than keen to sign Ogier which means that one of the finns will have to leave.


I think one of the Finns will be leaving through the choice - VW is an attractive option for most drivers.

[tfp]

Ok, I understand your point, but frankly, even if few fans does, I never heard the media or a high number of fans saying that Kimi would have won this and that. To me, what he did in the WRC is more than enough. Instead, I heard all this things about Block, who is neither a shadow of a WRC driver.
Anyway, neither Kimi or Ken said something like "I will win so many things" so, they did nothing wrong. If you want someone to give the fault, they are these kind of fans, not Raikkonen himself.

Raikkonen had the guts to give it a go, he even took a stage win :) So hats off to him as far as I'm concerned.
On the other hand, I wonder what will become of Kaj Lindstrom? Will he have a seat next year?

[slorydn1]

I've had to delete several posts just in the last 3 pages of this thread. Without naming any names I know there are several of you who are frustrated with one poster. I get that.

I'm sure if I had the time to go back through and read every post I would find out why (actually I already have an idea, having seen the posts that have been reported).

That person (and I'm quite sure he knows who he is, I can tell by the tenor of his posts that he does these things on purpose) has only so much rope left and he will eventually run out and hang himself with it. In the meantime the rest of you who have had your posts deleted don't need to be adding fuel to the fire and getting yourselves in trouble along with him.

Everyone has an opinion, and is entitled to them. Everyone does NOT have the right to attack other posters, even when they are annoying as heck. So stop it.

I'm not taking any further action to the posters whose posts I have deleted- no points, bans, PM's, nothing THIS TIME because I understand and feel their frustration.

But I am watching and will be popping in from time to time. I'd do it more, but I really don't watch rally (dont have much access to it here in the states) and because of that ignorance I wouldn't be able to add to the discussion with anything worthwhile anyway.

Please don't make me have to do something that I really don't want to do........

That is all, rant over. You may now go back to your regularly scheduled posting.

[AMSS]

If we stire the suop up a bit more, than what if Ogier goes to Ford than it leaves Hirvonen without a contract but if he goes to Citroen as nr.2 to Loeb instead of VW.
Let`s be honest here he is probably the best nr.2 driver in the world as his speed clearly isn`t good enough to be number one(everywhere else except Finland). Also seems as neither of the Finns at Ford are particularly super good at adjusting and testing the car, which should be the most important thing for VW.
And Citroen could use a good nr.2 driver for their manufactorer championship campaign. Similar as Mikko was nr.2 at Ford with Grönholm as nr.1 and they won the manufactorer championship twice back then.
Seems as the most interesting thing for rest of the season is outside of the Rallies themselves( both championships more or less certain at the moment)

[AndyRAC]

If we stire the suop up a bit more, than what if Ogier goes to Ford than it leaves Hirvonen without a contract but if he goes to Citroen as nr.2 to Loeb instead of VW.
Let`s be honest here he is probably the best nr.2 driver in the world as his speed clearly isn`t good enough to be number one(everywhere else except Finland). Also seems as neither of the Finns at Ford are particularly super good at adjusting and testing the car, which should be the most important thing for VW.
And Citroen could use a good nr.2 driver for their manufactorer championship campaign. Similar as Mikko was nr.2 at Ford with Grönholm as nr.1 and they won the manufactorer championship twice back then.
Seems as the most interesting thing for rest of the season is outside of the Rallies themselves( both championships more or less certain at the moment)


I actually made a similar point on another forum about Mikko going to Citroen:

"Hmm, actually, Hirvonen going to Citroen isn’t the worst suggestion I’ve heard. He doesn’t seems to have an ego, and would provide the perfect back up to Loeb, and a change of scenery might do him the world of good. Add in the fact he would be a likely winner in Sweden/ Finland – it makes sense.
However, Ogier going to Ford to partner Latvala could be ‘interesting’ – more fireworks methinks. Unless Latvala goes to VW….???"

[N.O.T]

I've had to delete several posts just in the last 3 pages of this thread. Without naming any names I know there are several of you who are frustrated with one poster. I get that.

I'm sure if I had the time to go back through and read every post I would find out why (actually I already have an idea, having seen the posts that have been reported).

That person (and I'm quite sure he knows who he is, I can tell by the tenor of his posts that he does these things on purpose) has only so much rope left and he will eventually run out and hang himself with it. In the meantime the rest of you who have had your posts deleted don't need to be adding fuel to the fire and getting yourselves in trouble along with him.

Everyone has an opinion, and is entitled to them. Everyone does NOT have the right to attack other posters, even when they are annoying as heck. So stop it.

I'm not taking any further action to the posters whose posts I have deleted- no points, bans, PM's, nothing THIS TIME because I understand and feel their frustration.

But I am watching and will be popping in from time to time. I'd do it more, but I really don't watch rally (dont have much access to it here in the states) and because of that ignorance I wouldn't be able to add to the discussion with anything worthwhile anyway.

Please don't make me have to do something that I really don't want to do........

That is all, rant over. You may now go back to your regularly scheduled posting.

ok i will change the way i express my self then, but not my views.

It would be interesting to see what really bothers people, the way i say things ? or the things i say...

it will be a nice expreriment, because i always thought that the way someone expresses himself doesn't affect the outcome much. People tend to object on the substance and get out of control not on the details.

[Francis44]

Ogier wont choose Ford, last year all that talk was only a strategy to make Citroen open their pockets to keep him. I think he would rather be one year without competing and take a VW seat for 2013.

However Citroen might be risking to much on Loeb, he's not getting any younger and I think two seasons is too much, plus if they loose Ogier they might never get him back.

[6789]

Vatanen cools Ogier to leave Citoen rumours, translated from Finnish so the Finns might have a better translate than Google

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2F2011%2F08%2F1378869%2Fogierin-suomalaismanageri-citronilla-jatketaan)

[Gregor-y]

All I could determine from that article is that Google hasn't figured out how to translate Finnish. Words out of order in a sentence can be figured out, but that was just a mash of nonsense.

I don't know a lick of Finnish but looking at the original site at least informs me Kim Vatanen is some kind of Finnish manager for Ogier.

And for some reason the original mention of Mikko Hirvonen is translated to Petter Solberg.

[cali]

Yeah, today Kim Vatanen (Ogier's manager) has told finnish site mtv3.fi that Ogier will stay in Citroen and he hopes that Ford will get their act together.

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/08/1378869/ogierin-suomalaismanageri-citronilla-jatketaan

[Miika]

However the phrase 'näillä näkymin' in the interview suggests that at the moment continuing with Citroen next year is a likely option but that it still hasn´t been agreed on -> therefore the cards could still be on the table. And so does suggest this comment from Ogier in Germany (from Autosport):

"If there is a new policy of team orders, I want to know so I am able to make a decision.”

[N.O.T]

i cannot see any other realistic solution than staying with citroen until his contract expires... and i do not think that Citroen will use him as a sidekick to Loeb next year if he has a strong start, it could harm everyone if they do. Loebs legacy would be put to question, citroens legitimacy as a team would be jeopardised and Ogier stock will fall.

Ogiers options are limited for now, the wisest thing is to just wait focus on his driving and be the natural substitue when Loeb retires or sooner if he can manage it.

[tfp]

However the phrase 'näillä näkymin' in the interview suggests that at the moment continuing with Citroen next year is a likely option but that it still hasn´t been agreed on -> therefore the cards could still be on the table. And so does suggest this comment from Ogier in Germany (from Autosport):

"If there is a new policy of team orders, I want to know so I am able to make a decision.”

It makes you wonder how much his contract actually means if he can decide whether or not to stay with Citroen for next year or not.
Ogier knows how to win rallies. He's hungry, and he wants his first championship now. But if they favour Loeb, which is I guess what Loebs new contract states, then he may walk? If Loebs contract does say that and ogier stays, I can see more fireworks happening in the team!

[Miika]

Remains to be seen, how free the competition inside the team will be in the future. But reading this interview, sounds as if the bigger boss(es) have already decided that nothing will come in the way of Loeb:
Jean-Marc Gales Q & A: Why Citroen needs Sebastien Loeb - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93917)

If Citroen is thinking of leaving the WRC after Loeb has retired, then of course it doesn´t matter much who drives the other car for the next two seasons. But if they plan to stick around long-term and keep their level in the future as well then they should think about Ogier a bit as well, not just the 2012 and 2013 titles with Loeb.

[tfp]

Remains to be seen, how free the competition inside the team will be in the future. But reading this interview, sounds as if the bigger boss(es) have already decided that nothing will come in the way of Loeb:
Jean-Marc Gales Q & A: Why Citroen needs Sebastien Loeb - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93917)

If Citroen is thinking of leaving the WRC after Loeb has retired, then of course it doesn´t matter much who drives the other car for the next two seasons. But if they plan to stick around long-term and keep their level in the future as well then they should think about Ogier a bit as well, not just the 2012 and 2013 titles with Loeb.

Thats a point, would citroen be reluctant to stay in the WRC if they dont have loeb driving for them?

I'd love to know what sold more cars, WRC or Le Mans :)

[wildsir]

Citroen don't need Ogier or Quesnel.
Loeb wins 2 more titles with Citroen
Quesel leaves at end of 2011.
Citroen pull out of rally end of 2013.
PSA chiefs don't care about Ogier.

[danon]

Take a look at this vote :arrow: QUESTION DU JOUR - La question du Mardi 23 août - Sébastien Ogier doit-il être sanctionné par Citroën pour son comportement lors du rallye d'Allemagne? - L'EQUIPE.FR (http://www.lequipe.fr/QDJ/Question_du_jour-2320.html)

QUESTION OF THE DAY:

Sébastien Ogier must be sanctioned by Citroen for his behavior during the Rally of Germany?

Have your say.

[Lundgaard]

People don't get, that Ogier is the best thing that have happened for WRC in many years. Imagine no Ogier! Most boring season ever. Let them fight!

[Nornbugger]

People don't get, that Ogier is the best thing that have happened for WRC in many years. Imagine no Ogier! Most boring season ever. Let them fight!

you are right to a point, but Ogier needs to learn that his job is to drive, not to talk, he comes across as arrogant and disrespectful to all around him. He makes himself very hard to like, in fact I have followed rallying since the late 70s and he and Duval are the only 2 that come to mind that I would say I dislike!

[Lundgaard]

Well, Nornbugger. I agree with Duval. But Ogier is different. Ogier is a real character and not a pr machine. When he is not winning he is furious, and that is the way it should be. Mikko and Jari are to much like "Oh, well...next rally".
And Ogier knows he has a chance to beat the greatest driver of all time.

[I am evil Homer]

I think Ogier is getting similar criticism that Hamilton also got/gets in F1...two highly skilled, passionate guys who love doing what they do but sometimes open mouths before thinking of the consequences. But both sports would be poorer if they weren't around.

I'd take an Ogier over a J-ML or Sordo every time

[Nornbugger]

[quote="Lundgaard"]


he has, but he could do it with more grace, he is a hugely talented driver, his drive last weekend was incredible, very few thought he could take Loeb on on German tar, but IMHO he doesnt come across as a person I'd like to be around

[Gregor-y]

A few vocal hotheads are as much a part of the sport as understated Finns.

[MJW]

he has, but he could do it with more grace, he is a hugely talented driver, his drive last weekend was incredible, very few thought he could take Loeb on on German tar, but IMHO he doesnt come across as a person I'd like to be around thats where you are wrong, Ogier is one of the nicest guys that I have met.

[N.O.T]

Well, Nornbugger. I agree with Duval. But Ogier is different. Ogier is a real character and not a pr machine. When he is not winning he is furious, and that is the way it should be. Mikko and Jari are to much like "Oh, well...next rally".
And Ogier knows he has a chance to beat the greatest driver of all time.

i think if Ogier was at ford and was losing as much as the finns do then he would also get that losers mentality, its normal. Ogier is in a winning team and wants to win everything..once you taste the win so often you become greedy...on the other hand if you lose almost always wityh hands down as the fins at ford then you get used to it.

I think the whole Loeb-Ogier-Citroen story is not that serious in reality, but the media who are used to dramas from the F1 inflate it, and the M-sport/Ford driven/sponsoerd media will keep it in context for long time because that is a good way to cover their failure.

[Nornbugger]

thats where you are wrong, Ogier is one of the nicest guys that I have met.


I'd be happy to be wrong on this, I havent met him yet, but I can say that I dont think he comes across well

[Boudica]

i expected nothing from a F1 driver....

I also expected the media would treat him like a F1 driver and not a rally driver with a future in the sport

I also expected that some rally fans would treat him like a f1 driver

there is a thread about kimi where you can see my views on him ...search it, some even had almost daily news on his rally career and even diagrams with his progress...but somehow they dissapeared after they realised it was just a fluke and a publicity stunt.

Nope, we are still here but there are better places to follow Kimi's rally career, without all of the patronizing and cynicism.

Autosport is just printing their annual Kimi bash. They claim that the Robetsons are looking around in F1, but there has been a few Finnish articles stating that the Robertsons aren't even Kimi's managers anymore. :rolleyes:

Hopefully one day they would do a leading article about the teammate feud at Citroen.

[Livewireshock]

NZ driver Emma Gilmour is set to at least test for VW before Wales Rally GB, potentially competing in a Skoda S2000 car for the VW team. This reduces the chances of a British national getting a drive as Volkswagen evaluate drivers for their future WRC campaign. VW team boss, Nissen, said that it was an international team and that they would look at anyone who is considered fast and of an advantage to the team, not about idealistic national goals.

[AndyRAC]

Nope, we are still here but there are better places to follow Kimi's rally career, without all of the patronizing and cynicism.

Autosport is just printing their annual Kimi bash. They claim that the Robetsons are looking around in F1, but there has been a few Finnish articles stating that the Robertsons aren't even Kimi's managers anymore. :rolleyes:

Hopefully one day they would do a leading article about the teammate feud at Citroen.

It's pretty poor journalism. But why are we surprised, it is Autosport, who lost the plot years ago - and are a mainly F1 mag. Basically, the way I read the article was that " Kimi is too good for WRC, and should be back in the Pinnacle of Motorsport - F1"
Also, when was the last time they had Loeb on the front, and had in depth analysis of him? There is a huge story with the Loeb/Ogier rivalry and yet they talk/beg Kimi to come back 'home'. Absolute rubbish......

[MR666]

NZ driver Emma Gilmour is set to at least test for VW before Wales Rally GB, potentially competing in a Skoda S2000 car for the VW team. This reduces the chances of a British national getting a drive as Volkswagen evaluate drivers for their future WRC campaign. VW team boss, Nissen, said that it was an international team and that they would look at anyone who is considered fast and of an advantage to the team, not about idealistic national goals.

Is there an article around about this?

Would think if she is getting a test Paddon would be on the list to test also.

[danon]

VW may enter F1? :arrow: www.autoracing1.com/rumors.asp%3Ftid%3D10428+More+evidence+VW+may+ente r+F1%3F+...+appointed+as+head+of+the+scheme+overse eing+the+Polo+R+WRC+car,+according+to+German+publi cation+Motorsport+Aktuell.&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nl&source=www.google.nl]AutoRacing1.com (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XCe-NiZ6UeAJ:[url) - Rumors Page[/url]

[N.O.T]

VW may enter F1? :arrow: www.autoracing1.com/rumors.asp%3Ftid%3D10428+More+evidence+VW+may+ente r+F1%3F+...+appointed+as+head+of+the+scheme+overse eing+the+Polo+R+WRC+car,+according+to+German+publi cation+Motorsport+Aktuell.&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nl&source=www.google.nl]AutoRacing1.com (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XCe-NiZ6UeAJ:[url) - Rumors Page[/url]

why would a guy who was appointed at the R A L L Y department of VW would be considered as a move towards F1 ???

[danon]

Bear in mind, that this is a Rumor.
But as the old saying goes - in every rumor lies a piece of truth.

Description (of the website itself- upper mid part)

A rumor rated as 'speculation' is one that has no supporting information

A rumor rated as 'strong' is one where we received information from more than one source.

A rumor rated as 'fact' is one that has proven to be true

A rumor rated as 'false' is one that has proven to be false based on new information

This one is rated as 'speculation', but isn't it how all starts, nowdays. ;)

[N.O.T]

yes...the question remains....the guy was appointed at the rally section of VW not a secrect project, not a track project....so how is this related to F1 ?

[danon]

yes...the question remains....the guy was appointed at the rally section of VW not a secrect project, not a track project....so how is this related to F1 ?

The article says it all why:

More evidence VW may enter F1? Willy Rampf, former Technical Director at the Sauber F1 team, has been recruited as Technical Director by Volkswagen Motorsport. The German, who left the Hinwil team last year to be replaced by James Key, will oversee VW’s World Rally project.

Now 58, Rampf has been appointed as head of the scheme overseeing the Polo R WRC car, according to German publication Motorsport Aktuell. He will be working alongside Francois-Xavier Demaison, Chief Engineer.

The new commitment is not a rallying first for Rampf, who headed up BMW’s Dakar motorcycle project at the end of the 1990s.

[N.O.T]

the article says that an ex-F1 guy is appointed to a RALLY programme ....

Is this evidence that WV going to F1 ???

[N.O.T]

Its like saying that when David richards went to honda team in F1 that this was evidence that honda would go to WRC......is this logical to you ???

[danon]

What? Oh... yeah, got it.

You think, they're going to shout out loud if they're up to something.

You are looking for conspiracy.
Why it has to be a secret project.
Isn't there a hint of secrecy yet.

Then again, it is a - RUMOUR, Watson! ;)

[SubaruNorway]

Not good, we all saw what happened to Subaru after 2004 i think it was when they hired F1 engineers...

[N.O.T]

Not good, we all saw what happened to Subaru after 2004 i think it was when they hired F1 engineers...

they joined F1 ??

[N.O.T]

What? Oh... yeah, got it.

You think, they're going to shout out loud if they're up to something.

You are looking for conspiracy.
Why it has to be a secret project.
Isn't there a hint of secrecy yet.

Then again, it is a - RUMOUR, Watson! ;)

A rumour is always a rumour, the thing is when we read something like that which has no substance or real evidence it good to think about it before posting it....

[danon]

A rumour is always a rumour, the thing is when we read something like that which has no substance or real evidence it good to think about it before posting it....

... Go and tell the site in question (in this case),
to close the rumors section, because you have made a point that,
they should think first before write a rumor.

They/I have posted the truth.

The truth is, that someone has said/write this.
Not to be confused with the other truth - whether it is true. Neither I,
nor any of the readers may know that (I guess).

Elementary, my dear Watson ;)

[Gregor-y]

Not good, we all saw what happened to Subaru after 2004 i think it was when they hired F1 engineers...


they joined F1 ??
F1 switched to a gravel format to accommodate them.
F1 2011 - Red Bull demo at the Circuit of the Americas - Coulthard on the dirt track - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVxQzseaUb8)

[N.O.T]

i accept that, all i am saying is that before we actually post something in here we should think if the source is actually legitimate...because a rumour is not very far from junk news.... which is not nice.

got that sherlock ??

[Plan9]

Is there an article around about this?

Would think if she is getting a test Paddon would be on the list to test also.
Wow this is amazing. I think she would be great in the WRC. I suspect Paddon is getting his hooks in elsewhere and will probably test one of the British WRC cars (ford, mini).
Does Gilmour have more $$$$ than Paddon?

[N.O.T]

I did not have much faith in Paddon but he proved me wrong...he is very fast and would be nice to get a chance in a WRC.

[Barreis]

Gilmour is slow.

[Allyc85]

Gilmour is slow.

Do you have the brains to write something that is longer than a few words are you too busy licking windows?

[tfp]

Do you have the brains to write something that is longer than a few words are you too busy licking windows?

Haha, a little bit harsh :p ?

I think haydon padden is an up and coming star in the making, as is Tanak.
Just my opinion of course ;)

Does anyone know whats hapenning with PG? If ostberg has no budget....How about PG in ostbergs place at stobart?

[danon]

i accept that,
You're getting smarter, Watson.
But please, make up your mind once and for all,
because the first phrase of your post (quote: i accept that... ) contradicts all the rest.


all i am saying is that before we actually post something in here we should think if the source is actually legitimate...

What's wrong with the source in question.
If you have any doubts, feel free to make a personal investigation of the source.



because a rumour is not very far from junk news.... which is not nice.

With this statement of yours, you denied the thread "[WRC] News & rumours" as a whole.


got that sherlock ??

How often have I said to you, Watson,
that when you have eliminated the impossible,
whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?

"Sherlock Holmes"

[N.O.T]

How often have I said to you, Watson,
that when you have eliminated the impossible,
whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?

"Sherlock Holmes"

which contradicts the initial post of your garbage news...

For a cheap version or Mr Downey, you are exactly that..cheap.

i rest my case or the american will get me.

[Maui J.]

NZ driver Emma Gilmour is set to at least test for VW before Wales Rally GB, potentially competing in a Skoda S2000 car for the VW team. This reduces the chances of a British national getting a drive as Volkswagen evaluate drivers for their future WRC campaign. VW team boss, Nissen, said that it was an international team and that they would look at anyone who is considered fast and of an advantage to the team, not about idealistic national goals.

Interesting stuff! Maybe VW are thinking about the marketing potential by having a female driver in their portfolio. Can't be a bad move. They have done it before with Mouton in the Quattro.
As well the Polo could be considered as a car aimed at the female motorist, whereas the Golf and especially the Scirocco, IMO, are aimed more at male drivers. So possibly a cleaver marketing move.

[N.O.T]

i wonder how much Gilmour payed to get a chance at VW because she is not a rally driver, let alone a fast one.

[Maui J.]

... she is not a rally driver, let alone a fast one.

Didn't you say something similar about Hayden Paddon a few months back?
It seems to me you can type faster than your brain can think.



I did not have much faith in Paddon but he proved me wrong...he is very fast and would be nice to get a chance in a WRC.

Just to let you know Paddon, Gilmour, Proton, Mikko, Kimi, village rally drivers (as you call them), Matt Wilson etc don't have to prove anything to you. They are out there doing it, you are stuck behind a computer screen.

[logic]

Why respond to him , let him just type his drivel .

[N.O.T]

Just to let you know Paddon, Gilmour, Proton, Mikko, Kimi, village rally drivers (as you call them), Matt Wilson etc don't have to prove anything to you. They are out there doing it, you are stuck behind a computer screen.

of course they don't... They care more about sponsors, managers and manufacturers when it comes to proving things.

I never really craved to become a rally driver, i only like it as a spectacle and sport. I definatelly wanted to become far more useful in the earth ecosystem than driving around the world and having people clapping their hands and blowing airhorns every time they watched me, or even sitting behind a monitor and judge me in bad or good ways, and now that i think about it i am FAR more useful than all the above guys as most people with proper Jobs or even hobbies.

so back to the topic about Gilmour....yeah she is not that fast, at least paddon is fast compared to the other lesser competiton competitors...and he deserves a test in a WRC to see if he has what it takes

hope WV makes good use of her money.

[N.O.T]

the experiment goes well...my style of writting changed but the insults remain....The Human kind is way too predictable. Am i right Mr american moderator ?

[MR666]

Is there an article around about this?

Would think if she is getting a test Paddon would be on the list to test also.

VW to assess Emma Gilmour as part of WRC driver hunt - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93951)

[Francis44]

I just read that Nasser is trying to secure a DS3 WRC for next year with Barwa support.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Will Barwa pay enough so he can get a good car or something like Petter this year?

[Ucci]

Will Barwa pay enough so he can get a good car or something like Petter this year?
And what is wrong with Peter's DS3 WRC????

[MJW]

And what is wrong with Peter's DS3 WRC????
You can pay as much as you can, it is still not a works car, and spec.

[alleskids]

I just read that Nasser is trying to secure a DS3 WRC for next year with Barwa support.

I read that Nasser wants to create a Qatar next top WRC stardriver. in 5 years time Qatar wil have a young star driver, by training and getting experience in lower classe and finally in WRC. Probalry with Citroen in WRC and Peugeot in lower classes?

[tfp]

And what is wrong with Peter's DS3 WRC????

Its dog slow compared with the manufacturer cars:-)

[slorydn1]

the experiment goes well...my style of writting changed but the insults remain....The Human kind is way too predictable. Am i right Mr american moderator ?
Yep you're right about that :up: .....Still we can only hope that people try to do better. In fact you were doing really really well up until:


which contradicts the initial post of your garbage news...

For a cheap version or Mr Downey, you are exactly that..cheap.

i rest my case or the american will get me.

THAT was not called for, and and I'm not even sweatin' the last shot directed at me.

I dont usually do public warnings as I really don't like them-they get everyone stirred up-but here it is: clean it up or leave.

I, for one would hate to see you leave, you add a lot of content to the forum, and most of it is really good. Work on the attitude and things will go well, if not take a vacation....the ball is in your court, sir. :s mokin:

[sollitt]

the experiment goes well...my style of writting changed but the insults remain....The Human kind is way too predictable. Am i right Mr american moderator ? I wonder what it is that urges you to insult other people without cause or knowledge. It's certainly not a habit of successful people whether they be sports people or eco-technophobes.

Clearly, Emma Gilmour is a rally driver. A very talented and successful one at that. She might not be quite on Paddon's speed (but then few people are) but I'd wager that she would hold her own against most of the other tryouts for the VW seat. I believe she has a history, not only in New Zealand but also in Europe, of showing remarkable speed.
Whether she's got what VW are looking for remains to be seen. I guess that's what a test is for.

[Barreis]

She can be only a guest there.

[Daniel]

I wonder what it is that urges you to insult other people without cause or knowledge. It's certainly not a habit of successful people whether they be sports people or eco-technophobes.

Clearly, Emma Gilmour is a rally driver. A very talented and successful one at that. She might not be quite on Paddon's speed (but then few people are) but I'd wager that she would hold her own against most of the other tryouts for the VW seat. I believe she has a history, not only in New Zealand but also in Europe, of showing remarkable speed.
Whether she's got what VW are looking for remains to be seen. I guess that's what a test is for.

You seem to have this strange habit of needing to defend people from down under.

Sadly in Australia and NZ the level of competition is well behind that which you get in Europe. There have been plenty of immensely talented drivers in various fields down under, but sadly if they don't leave and go to Europe or the US fairly early in their careers then their careers are generally guaranteed to flatline. People like Possum, Cody Crocker, Craig Lowndes and various others have reached the peak of their domestic championships but have just failed to compete on the world stage and it's not for lack of talent that's for sure. Have a look at Casey Stone and Mark Webber, the two most successful people that Australia has produced of late and the one thing they share is having gone to Europe by the time they were both 20 or so and they both moved onto high level competition shortly after.

It would be nice to see a woman in the WRC and not purely just because she's a woman, but sadly I think Emma's probably spent too much time in Australia and New Zealand and that will probably be a limiting factor on her future regardless of how much talen she has.

[Barreis]

She doesn't have balls. :D

[Daniel]

She doesn't have balls. :D

Seriously someone should just ban you, you add absolutely nothing to this forum other than mindless 3 or 4 word comments.

[Barreis]

cut the crap, 37000 comments for what?! go back to australia from europe.

[Plan9]

I also think money is a problem for us down under. Scott Dixon tested for Williams in 2003 or something and didn't get a drive with any of the back teams, even though in that year the f1 field took on a few wealthy no-hopers. Paddon and Emma G will struggle to make a career in any international rally series as there is not enough corporate interest and European rich kids and ken blocks will take precedent over them always for that reason.

[sollitt]

Most of what you've written I actually agree with except this;
You seem to have this strange habit of needing to defend people from down under.
I actually very seldom 'defend' anybody from these parts. In this case I was merely correcting a typically outrageous fatuous statement made by your Grecian buddy.

... and this;
Sadly in Australia and NZ the level of competition is well behind that which you get in Europe. I don't accept that this is necessarilly true. Make no mistake. The resources may be limited, which restricts the numbers who can play at the top level, but those who do are on a par with their counterparts from any other region. And the competition is fierce. You need look no further than Paddon for an example.

[cali]

cut the crap, 37000 comments for what?! go back to australia from europe.

Actually Daniel was spot on about your posts and behaviour here.

I have 700+ posts, where do you want to send me? :D

[Barreis]

Nowhere. Let's talk about news and rumours.

[AP-Racing]

What you think about ICE1 future? If i righr understanding, after missing Australia Rally team will be excluded from manufacters

[N.O.T]

I think we will not see the team next year, No sponsors at all, and only the CEO of the team drives the car.

Maybe a few appearances in local events and a few WRC for fun.

[Mitch555]

You seem to have this strange habit of needing to defend people from down under.

Sadly in Australia and NZ the level of competition is well behind that which you get in Europe. There have been plenty of immensely talented drivers in various fields down under, but sadly if they don't leave and go to Europe or the US fairly early in their careers then their careers are generally guaranteed to flatline. People like Possum, Cody Crocker, Craig Lowndes and various others have reached the peak of their domestic championships but have just failed to compete on the world stage and it's not for lack of talent that's for sure. Have a look at Casey Stone and Mark Webber, the two most successful people that Australia has produced of late and the one thing they share is having gone to Europe by the time they were both 20 or so and they both moved onto high level competition shortly after.

It would be nice to see a woman in the WRC and not purely just because she's a woman, but sadly I think Emma's probably spent too much time in Australia and New Zealand and that will probably be a limiting factor on her future regardless of how much talen she has.

Agree and disagree Daniel. In the Asia Pacific region, money has always being a limiting factor in getting the better drivers through the sport. Motor racing isn't as big in these regions, which makes it a playground for the rich, much like WRC now days when many drivers are forced to sit on the sidelines.

Getting to Europe is massively expensive for Aussies and Kiwis who find it hard enough to get sponsors in their own countries. Paddon has gone beyond what others have had to do to run this year, and it is why Atkinson is only running APRC, as he isn't going to come back with a half-arsed effort, that's just pointless. To do a 3 day event in Europe costs $60,000 to $80,000 for an outsider in a Group N4 car, once you hire the car, insurance, recce cars, tyres, pay for service crew, flights etc. It just is not sustainable for people to do that :P

So after all that I agree with you to an extent, but if the WRC wasn't so geared towards Europe, it might be a more achievable for non Europeans to get to the top level.

Back on Emma,
It will be interesting to see how she goes, she definitely won't be as fast as the others, but look what Atkinson did after preseason tests with Subaru in 2005. Top 10 times in Sweden in a new car, new surface, new tyres. Only other driver capable of this is Hayden Paddon. Emma is better than Molly Taylor by a long way, but yes, it's more the novelty of a decent female driver.

[AndyRAC]

I also think money is a problem for us down under. Scott Dixon tested for Williams in 2003 or something and didn't get a drive with any of the back teams, even though in that year the f1 field took on a few wealthy no-hopers. Paddon and Emma G will struggle to make a career in any international rally series as there is not enough corporate interest and European rich kids and ken blocks will take precedent over them always for that reason.

Sadly, it’s the way of modern day Motorsport. Look at MotoGP – a huge amount of Spanish & Italian riders in the 3 classes, and to be brutally honest – far too many for a World Championship!! Similarly in WRC we’ve had many Finns getting drives, purely because they’re Finnish and get good backing, which considering how small the population is compared to Australasia doesn’t make sense.
Should it matter whether driver A or driver B is from Outer Mongolia or France? No, but France is a so called ‘more important’ market.

[Daniel]

Most of what you've written I actually agree with except this;
I actually very seldom 'defend' anybody from these parts. In this case I was merely correcting a typically outrageous fatuous statement made by your Grecian buddy.

... and this; I don't accept that this is necessarilly true. Make no mistake. The resources may be limited, which restricts the numbers who can play at the top level, but those who do are on a par with their counterparts from any other region. And the competition is fierce. You need look no further than Paddon for an example.


I think mentioning Paddon somewhat proves my point. He's far younger than Gilmour and he's made the jump from NZ to Europe earlier and in a higher class. Of course the limited amount of funds influences what the level of competition, but what I'm trying to say is that if a driver stays in a country where the level of competition isn't as high as Europe for too long, then their career later on may be limited.

If I were an Aussie or Kiwi driver wanting a long and successful career then the first thing I'd try to do would be to make the move over to Europe.

[N.O.T]

Well world motorsport is a business, and in business money will always be the most important factor, its normal for the companies to go for the drivers with the best sponsors and backing because that will make their job easier. Sure everybody would like to see the fastest and the best drivers to get their chances but why go for a driver with no money when you can have one not far away in speed but with lots of money that can help the team ??

The problem you mention about the backing is everywhere in countries with no motorsport culture. Italy, Spain, France, Finland, USA have motorsport cultures which makes the crowds interested thus leading into companies throw money where the crowds are in order to make profit.

Its not welfare, its business.

[Daniel]

Agree and disagree Daniel. In the Asia Pacific region, money has always being a limiting factor in getting the better drivers through the sport. Motor racing isn't as big in these regions, which makes it a playground for the rich, much like WRC now days when many drivers are forced to sit on the sidelines.

Getting to Europe is massively expensive for Aussies and Kiwis who find it hard enough to get sponsors in their own countries. Paddon has gone beyond what others have had to do to run this year, and it is why Atkinson is only running APRC, as he isn't going to come back with a half-arsed effort, that's just pointless. To do a 3 day event in Europe costs $60,000 to $80,000 for an outsider in a Group N4 car, once you hire the car, insurance, recce cars, tyres, pay for service crew, flights etc. It just is not sustainable for people to do that :P

So after all that I agree with you to an extent, but if the WRC wasn't so geared towards Europe, it might be a more achievable for non Europeans to get to the top level.

Back on Emma,
It will be interesting to see how she goes, she definitely won't be as fast as the others, but look what Atkinson did after preseason tests with Subaru in 2005. Top 10 times in Sweden in a new car, new surface, new tyres. Only other driver capable of this is Hayden Paddon. Emma is better than Molly Taylor by a long way, but yes, it's more the novelty of a decent female driver.

I know what you're saying and that sadly is what drivers from that region have to deal with it or resign themselves to only ever being a national champion.

It's not a criticism of the region or the drivers. It's simply the way it is. Look as Casey Stoner and Mark Webber, they left Australia and never looked back. I know it's expensive, but if you want to compete at the top, staying in a rallying backwater (figuratively speaking) is not going to advance your career. Crocker, Bourne and Lowndes were all drivers who IMHO could probably be rally/race winners if they had left Australia and NZ earlier in their careers.

Atkinson's story is a sad one. I honestly think the guy had the speed to win a rally or two, but signing with Subaru in their twilight years sadly meant that he was always destined to fail and IMHO having Glenn MacNeal as a co-driver wasn't the best move and he improved rather a lot with Prevot alongside him even when the car seemed to be getting worse. I know a lot of people disagree on MacNeal, but he just had no rhythm to his notes and I think this was part of the reason why Chris, who was never a crasher, turned into one.

[Ucci]

Its dog slow compared with the manufacturer cars:-)

Yes....and you sholud definitely know as you tried both cars (Seb's and Peter's) or you were at least around when they had a common testing and you found with your hand watch that Peter is slower compared to SebI&SebII.
I'm tired of reading of this ''expert opinions''.....

[Mitch555]

The problem you mention about the backing is everywhere in countries with no motorsport culture. Italy, Spain, France, Finland, USA have motorsport cultures which makes the crowds interested thus leading into companies throw money where the crowds are in order to make profit.

Its not welfare, its business.


I know what you're saying and that sadly is what drivers from that region have to deal with it or resign themselves to only ever being a national champion.

It's not a criticism of the region or the drivers. It's simply the way it is. Look as Casey Stoner and Mark Webber, they left Australia and never looked back. I know it's expensive, but if you want to compete at the top, staying in a rallying backwater (figuratively speaking) is not going to advance your career. Crocker, Bourne and Lowndes were all drivers who IMHO could probably be rally/race winners if they had left Australia and NZ earlier in their careers.


Both of you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. It is a major marketing problem outside of Europe. Rallying is always going to cost 'an arm and a leg', however, I do believe FIA needs to have a rethink on rallying as a whole. You can't have a World Championship heavily based in Europe. If they want to really make rallying a premier sport again, there needs to be some risk taken and try and push into markets which are less used such as Africa, China, Japan, Australia/NZ and USA/Canada. Even FIA car regulations are biased towards European manufacturers. European cars are few and far between and cost more overseas due to importation taxes. Japanese cars are everywhere yet we don't really see them homologated for 2wd competition.

Australia and USA no longer use FIA regs as there is no manufacturer support which made it harder for decent drivers to get to the national level. It does go two ways, organisers of rallying at the national level also need to look at themselves and try to reinvigorate the sport in their own way, yet keep the FIA happy.

Anyhow... back on topic of News and Rumours :P

[Daniel]

Both of you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. It is a major marketing problem outside of Europe. Rallying is always going to cost 'an arm and a leg', however, I do believe FIA needs to have a rethink on rallying as a whole. You can't have a World Championship heavily based in Europe. If they want to really make rallying a premier sport again, there needs to be some risk taken and try and push into markets which are less used such as Africa, China, Japan, Australia/NZ and USA/Canada. Even FIA car regulations are biased towards European manufacturers. European cars are few and far between and cost more overseas due to importation taxes. Japanese cars are everywhere yet we don't really see them homologated for 2wd competition.

Australia and USA no longer use FIA regs as there is no manufacturer support which made it harder for decent drivers to get to the national level. It does go two ways, organisers of rallying at the national level also need to look at themselves and try to reinvigorate the sport in their own way, yet keep the FIA happy.

Anyhow... back on topic of News and Rumours :P

Nah, lets continue on! This is a great topic.

I think you have to accept that Rallying is primarily a European sport. Even when Hyundai, Subaru, Toyota and Mitsubishi ran WRC campaigns they were Europe based efforts.

I think rallying needs to concentrate on having good events rather than having events in strategic markets. Bring the Safari back, perhaps go to Indonesia for another rally over that side of the world, but focus on quality rather than ticking boxes.

[AndyRAC]

Nah, lets continue on! This is a great topic.

I think you have to accept that Rallying is primarily a European sport. Even when Hyundai, Subaru, Toyota and Mitsubishi ran WRC campaigns they were Europe based efforts.

I think rallying needs to concentrate on having good events rather than having events in strategic markets. Bring the Safari back, perhaps go to Indonesia for another rally over that side of the world, but focus on quality rather than ticking boxes.

Yeah, concentrate on getting some stability and more Manufacturers in the sport. Then start thinking about growing into a proper World Championship. I think they've tried to run before they can walk - the sport just isn't big enough, yet.

[bretddog]

Yes....and you sholud definitely know as you tried both cars (Seb's and Peter's) or you were at least around when they had a common testing and you found with your hand watch that Peter is slower compared to SebI&SebII.
I'm tired of reading of this ''expert opinions''.....

If you neither watch rallies, nor stage times, nor driver's comments, nor interviews, then why read this forum at all?

Just take a look at Petter's stage times in Finland 2010 vs 2011, or Germany 2010 vs 2011. Oh.. I guess he just turned old and scared all of a sudden.

His DS3 has for the last rallies been exactly dog slow, which most have understood. If it's his loss of sponsors who make him unable to pay for the upgrades, or if he's just not offered them is not clear. But it was not this slow earlier in the season.

[Daniel]

Yeah, concentrate on getting some stability and more Manufacturers in the sport. Then start thinking about growing into a proper World Championship. I think they've tried to run before they can walk - the sport just isn't big enough, yet.

Sadly both you and I know this. Yet still we have silly unhistoric dustbowl events like Sardinia, Jordan and until not long ago, Cyprus. Seriously, give the manufacturers the finger and put the Safari back in. Who cares if it costs the manufacturers money to make Safari spec cars. They'll appreciate it when people actually start watching.....

If you ask me what my dream calendar would be

Monte
Sweden
Safari
Portugal
Argentina
Acropolis
Finland
San Remo
Germany
Rally Corsica
Rally France (Alsace)
Rally NZ
An Asian round, perhaps Indonesia or the Japanese manufacturers want to come in, Japan.
Rally Australia (Perth)
Rally GB (note I didn't say Wales Rally GB......)
Perhaps a North American event like a snow event in Canada if that's possible.

No alternating events and a "fixed" calendar (in terms of which rallies we'll have) for 5 years. If a rally constantly underperforms it should go for 5 years. Alternating between rallies helps no one and just annoys fans.

Cancel the commercial rights contract as NorthOne the ISC or whatever they're called these days are clearly unfit to do the job.

I doubt many would disagree with a calendar like this. Make sure it doesn't conflict with stuff like extreme heat or rain and have the gravel events in as cool whether as possible (great for spectators and increases the chance of rain). Make sure it doesn't conflict with F1 and other popular forms of motorsport. Who is going to watch rallying when F1 is in Monaco for intance?

The manufacturers need to realise that what's good for the sport is good for spectators and viewers and when you have more spectators and viewers there is more $$$$$ value for the manufacturers......

[Sulland]

Would like to see a WRC round in CZ !

[rp]

Would like to see a WRC round in CZ !

Not a bad idea! They would deserve it...

[focus206]

Would like to see a WRC round in CZ !

It would be great :)
Personally I loved Rally Ireland when it was in the WRC, much better than Alsace in my opinion (anyway, let's see the 2011 edition), but if I remember well they have big budget problems there...

[Daniel]

Would like to see a WRC round in CZ !

Perhaps. But I don't necessarily feel that just because a nation is keen about Rallying that this means they should have an event. Personally I think a more classic style calendar like the one I proposed would be good till the WRC had some growth.

IMO a North American snow event would really add something to the WRC, as would rallying in Indonesia again, A Czech event would be good, but I don't see the absolute necessity of it I'm afraid.

[Francis44]

If some rally drops of the calendar I think a Czech rally should be up there in the contest, there fans are really into the sport and from what I heard it's really nice place to visit. Portugal might drop next year (budget problems) and I would be more than happy for it to be replaced by a round in Czech lands.

[Rallyper]

If you neither watch rallies, nor stage times, nor driver's comments, nor interviews, then why read this forum at all?

Just take a look at Petter's stage times in Finland 2010 vs 2011, or Germany 2010 vs 2011. Oh.. I guess he just turned old and scared all of a sudden.

His DS3 has for the last rallies been exactly dog slow, which most have understood. If it's his loss of sponsors who make him unable to pay for the upgrades, or if he's just not offered them is not clear. But it was not this slow earlier in the season.


Petter has been neutralized by Citroen. That´s why his car is slower. No doubt whatever the Seb´s fans or Citroen fans are saying. Citroen is afraid of being beaten by privateer and Petter has to agree on that. Or else no driving in WRC at all.

[Barreis]

No more FX in his team.

[logic]

Perhaps. But I don't necessarily feel that just because a nation is keen about Rallying that this means they should have an event. Personally I think a more classic style calendar like the one I proposed would be good till the WRC had some growth.

IMO a North American snow event would really add something to the WRC, as would rallying in Indonesia again, A Czech event would be good, but I don't see the absolute necessity of it I'm afraid.
Thing is in he states they do not use snow studs (they are not allowed to) , which would spice things up.

[Gregor-y]

There's a rally in January in upper lower Michigan (you need a map to appreciate the location) that would fit the bill nicely. Even the paved roads are usually under a few inches of hard packed snow and there are plenty of snowmobile riders to help push you back on the road.

[millbrook]

I went to Rally de Portugal for the first time this year and enjoyed it very much.
Some rumours about a 2 million euro deficit.
E agora? (http://www.ralisonline.net/pt/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1918:e-agora&catid=85:eventos&Itemid=147)

Is the situation really that bad?

It would be a huge disappointment to see Portugal being dropped out of the WRC :( (

Events such as Portugal, Finland, Greece, GB & Sweden are real classics/monuments of the sport and should be in the WRC every single year.




If some rally drops of the calendar I think a Czech rally should be up there in the contest, there fans are really into the sport and from what I heard it's really nice place to visit. Portugal might drop next year (budget problems) and I would be more than happy for it to be replaced by a round in Czech lands.

[MJW]

I went to Rally de Portugal for the first time this year and enjoyed it very much.
Some rumours about a 2 million euro deficit.
E agora? (http://www.ralisonline.net/pt/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1918:e-agora&catid=85:eventos&Itemid=147)

Is the situation really that bad?


It would be a huge disappointment to see Portugal being dropped out of the WRC :( (

Makes you wonder Rally Norway, Ireland and IRC Scotland all losing huge amounts of money, what is going on? Lots of questions at FIA and North One Sport's door......Too many people trying to make money out of a (weak) sport?

[AndyRAC]

Makes you wonder Rally Norway, Ireland and IRC Scotland all losing huge amounts of money, what is going on? Lots of questions at FIA and North One Sport's door......Too many people trying to make money out of a (weak) sport?

I'd guess that you are right.
Personally, I think that it goes back to when the WRC tried to turn itself into F1's dirty cousin - so everything from F1 was aped; generic formats, and obviously a similar business plan; pay big sanctioning fees for WRC events.
However, there was one slight drawback - WRC never was, never has been & never will be anything like as big as F1 - and there's nothing wrong with that. Knowing your market is pretty important - sadly, the powers that be over estimated the sports popularity. Whatever the sanctioning fee is, it's far too much!! The commercial side of the sport needs a whole rethink - £2Million in the modern sporting world isn't a lot of money, however, for World Rallying, it's probably a big deal.

[Plan9]

Nah, lets continue on! This is a great topic.

I think you have to accept that Rallying is primarily a European sport. Even when Hyundai, Subaru, Toyota and Mitsubishi ran WRC campaigns they were Europe based efforts.

I think rallying needs to concentrate on having good events rather than having events in strategic markets. Bring the Safari back, perhaps go to Indonesia for another rally over that side of the world, but focus on quality rather than ticking boxes.

I agree with this.

Also, I am not sure if Prodrive or M-Sport would ever make a car for Paddon for maybe rally NZ alone when they could make one for someone like Oliveria who would be able to pay for the whole season (but do much worse than Paddon on average). I don't think that Citroen or VW would consider him either as they do not sell a HUGE volume of cars down here.

[tfp]

Yes....and you sholud definitely know as you tried both cars (Seb's and Peter's) or you were at least around when they had a common testing and you found with your hand watch that Peter is slower compared to SebI&SebII.
I'm tired of reading of this ''expert opinions''.....

I havent driven either of the Sebs cars unfortunately :)

But, nah, Petters car is definetly dog slow compared to the citroen total cars :D

[Daniel]

I'd guess that you are right.
Personally, I think that it goes back to when the WRC tried to turn itself into F1's dirty cousin - so everything from F1 was aped; generic formats, and obviously a similar business plan; pay big sanctioning fees for WRC events.
However, there was one slight drawback - WRC never was, never has been & never will be anything like as big as F1 - and there's nothing wrong with that. Knowing your market is pretty important - sadly, the powers that be over estimated the sports popularity. Whatever the sanctioning fee is, it's far too much!! The commercial side of the sport needs a whole rethink - £2Million in the modern sporting world isn't a lot of money, however, for World Rallying, it's probably a big deal.

I don't think that it's impossible for the WRC to become F1's dirty sister.

But to try and do that when the cars were becoming less and less exciting to watch and manufacturers were dropping like flies was a stupid stupid move. I signed up here in 2001 and back then people were saying "active diffs and semi-auto boxes have to go" and how long did it take for that to happen?

[tfp]

Petter has been neutralized by Citroen. That´s why his car is slower. No doubt whatever the Seb´s fans or Citroen fans are saying. Citroen is afraid of being beaten by privateer and Petter has to agree on that. Or else no driving in WRC at all.

The trouble is, the manufacturers have far too much power over the privateers. Mr Warmbolds blog has opened my eyes to this!
And I'm not just referring to citroen, not mentioning any names or anything ;)

[Mitch555]

The strength in Europe is amazing, which has been shown with the success of the IRC. Perhaps ERC and IRC need to come together, and drop the events outside Europe, which would make a more successful second tier championship.

Eurosport has definately been doing the right thing with rallying, as has the crew at Rally Radio / iRally. If these guys took over the media for WRC, I think we'd have much better coverage. Eurosport's market power in comparison to North One is much greater. Their coverage is also far superior. North One coverage just doesn't do it for me, and a lot of other people on this forum. I now just stay up and listen to Rally Radio, as I know I'm getting a more accurate representation of the rally.

Is the Sno* Drift rally a viable option for WRC? It isn't really close to much in the way of towns. Then again, what rally in the US is? Olympus is good as it is next to Seattle. Plus international airport. Again, we are heading back to the 'commercialised' format of rallying, however that is the way USA would have to start I think in order to get the people. Though California has some magnificent tarmac road as well.

I agree with dropping Jordan and Sardinia, there really isn't enough character in these events. Also, if USA went ahead, I think Mexico would probably have to go. We talk about the Czech Republic getting Zlin in the WRC calendar. In terms of classics, why is Ypres, Ireland and Sanremo in the mix?

New Monte format is sort of in the right direction we need to head for some events. Rallying is an adventure, and I think that is what we've forgotten. So the Argentina endurance event is great, as would the return of a proper Safari rally. Even possibly run them on a more informative road book as recce is going to be a nightmare :P.

FIA also needs a rethink on regional series. Middle East is working well, ERC/IRC overlap needs to be addressed, North America has regulations and such forth all over the place, Asia Pacific needs to split in two in order to be cost effective (Asia and Pacific championships), South America... what is happening down there? These regional areas are supposed to be feeder series, but clearly they aren't working, a obvious case is Cody Crocker who has won everything, but got stuck because he didn't go to Europe, Simon Evans & Richard Mason are two others who come to mind. Atkinson was lucky, yet others like young USA kid Kyle Sarasin and the super depth of talent in Argentina over the past decade didn't go anywhere.

My calendar for WRC and IRC/ERC would be...

World Rally Championship
Monte Carlo (the only 'French' round)
Sweden
Portugal
Safari Rally
Argentina
USA
Greece
Finland
Germany
Japan/China (China has a strong series as well now), Japan could well be run on tarmac
New Zealand (Australia needs to stop kidding itself at the moment, they have no idea)
Spain
United Kingdom

*Another tarmac event should go in there, be it Ypres, Zlin, Ireland, Netherlands, or Sanremo.

Waiting in the wings are a more unique Middle East style event, they obviously have the money. A more sandy, longer rally would be better instead of Jordan. Plus another of the tarmac rallies. I think 14 events is probably the limit at the moment.

Intercontinental Rally Challenge or ERC under my idea
Norway
Ireland
Turkey
France
Belgium
Estonia or Russia or both
Czech Republic
Poland
Hungary/Bulgaria/Ukraine.
Netherlands
A gravel event
Switzerland

It's evident that a lot needs to be done, and I think the 'revolution' needs to start in everyones' own homes by getting involved with local rally series and improving rallies and such forth there. Especially outside of Europe, as most people are stuck in ways of organising things. If we as fans don't contribute, we aren't really doing a good job for our sport. The solution isn't going to come out of the air sadly.

[Plan9]

I think a good step would be to have a longer calendar and allow 3 car teams. Need to forget about 3rd world destinations like Africa until they get their countries sorted out.

[Plan9]

BWT any word on the 5th manufacturer? On here a few months back it was going crazy. Names ranging from Saab (unlikely), Mazda and Kia (possible) to the stupid (Lotus). I'm guessing by the silence that there is nothing in the pipeline after VW gets going.

[AMSS]

Like the calendar of Mitch555 but I would immediately remove Safari Rally from the Calendar. I know lot`s of people don`t share my thoughts even high up in the FIA but I don`t think the WRC should be endurance style events. The rallies can be more days yes and more km :s but they should be about the speed not some Paris-Dakar style events!
Fast rallies and about 100hp more in the cars that`s the concept to get alot more viewers!

[Mirek]

I heard that some people of FIA supports the idea to create more long cross-border events like Germany/France, Sweden/Norway, Finland/Russia, Poland/Czech Republic etc...

[Tomi]

I heard that some people of FIA supports the idea to create more long cross-border events like Germany/France, Sweden/Norway, Finland/Russia, Poland/Czech Republic etc...

Finland/Russia is too big distance between, also i hope they dont mess with the by far best rally for no reason.
Czech rally would be good, there would be a lot of spectators, Monte is a lottery rather than a rally and Safari no thanks. FVS opinions sounds good.

[cali]

Finland/Russia is too big distance between, also i hope they dont mess with the by far best rally for no reason.
Czech rally would be good, there would be a lot of spectators, Monte is a lottery rather than a rally and Safari no thanks. FVS opinions sounds good.

Sounds good, I'm also against Safari and have never understood why people really like this endurance test. But this year Sardinia was very nice and I actually would like to see this rally in the calendar.

[Daniel]

Finland/Russia is too big distance between, also i hope they dont mess with the by far best rally for no reason.
Czech rally would be good, there would be a lot of spectators, Monte is a lottery rather than a rally and Safari no thanks. FVS opinions sounds good.

Why no Safari Tomi? It's an iconic rally and I think the WRC needs some icons. You only need to look at the Monaco GP to see the value that an iconic event has.

The Monte isn't really the lottery it once was. Back 10 years ago you had a lot of choice for tyres. Now with the idiot village rallying rules they give you two or three tyres to choose for an event. So unless you choose slicks when you should have a studded tyre then you're likely to be fine.

Finland should not be messed with at all though. As an event it is iconic and perfect.

[Daniel]

Sounds good, I'm also against Safari and have never understood why people really like this endurance test. But this year Sardinia was very nice and I actually would like to see this rally in the calendar.


In the last few years though it was actually a sprint.

[AndyRAC]

That’s the problem with the recent WRC – not one iconic event! In the past we’ve had the Monte, Safari & RAC as events that even ‘Joe Public’ had at least heard of. Funnily enough, in yesterdays Independent, there was a pull out on the Mini, mentioned was it’s Rallying success and it’s appearance on the TV show Sunday Night at the Palladium after winning the Monte!
The Safari has gone, and the RAC has been on a diet – so none are left.
The IRC have resurrected the Monte – and the last 3 years have seen it return to something approaching what it is meant to be – we even saw tyre choices deciding this years event, something that sadly can’t happen in the WRC, unless the tyre regs are changed.

My fear is that too many current organisers will keep the status quo - at least Finland and Acropolis have tried something different, and for that should be congratulated.

[Red bull]

Nah, lets continue on! This is a great topic.

I think you have to accept that Rallying is primarily a European sport. Even when Hyundai, Subaru, Toyota and Mitsubishi ran WRC campaigns they were Europe based efforts.

I think rallying needs to concentrate on having good events rather than having events in strategic markets. Bring the Safari back, perhaps go to Indonesia for another rally over that side of the world, but focus on quality rather than ticking boxes.
That is what the wrc should be about speed skill and endurance not much more of sprints so whoever excels will be a true champion of all terrains, a champion on all continets. :s mokin:

[Motorsportfun]

Why no Safari Tomi? It's an iconic rally and I think the WRC needs some icons. You only need to look at the Monaco GP to see the value that an iconic event has.

The Monte isn't really the lottery it once was. Back 10 years ago you had a lot of choice for tyres. Now with the idiot village rallying rules they give you two or three tyres to choose for an event. So unless you choose slicks when you should have a studded tyre then you're likely to be fine.

Finland should not be messed with at all though. As an event it is iconic and perfect.

Come on Daniel, don't be so bloody stupid! Why Safari?? There's no more money to organize a WRC-class event there, now it's an awful historic rally and the IRC abandoned it immediately, when they saw what became since 2002!

IMHO would be far better to see a North American event, like proposed some posts ago. Would bring a great event to the WRC, a lots of spectators and mainly opens the series to a giant market like the United States!

P.S.: Sardinia will use - probably on Sunday - some stages in TUSCANY (old Sanremo stages) in 2012, starting a probably full-comeback in the Mainland in the near future. :s mokin:

[Motorsportfun]

My fear is that too many current organisers will keep the status quo - at least Finland and Acropolis have tried something different, and for that should be congratulated.

I would add Sardinia to Finland and Acropolis, because they're putting new roads EVERY YEAR since 2004. Who else did something like that? In 2011 Day 1 was completely new, giving new challenges. And next year will be back in Tuscany...

[AndyRAC]

Sardinia isn't Sanremo.....

[Motorsportfun]

Sardinia isn't Sanremo.....

Forget the tarmac Sanremo, FIA wont homologate these roads. Thats sure.

[Daniel]

Come on Daniel, don't be so bloody stupid! Why Safari?? There's no more money to organize a WRC-class event there, now it's an awful historic rally and the IRC abandoned it immediately, when they saw what became since 2002!

IMHO would be far better to see a North American event, like proposed some posts ago. Would bring a great event to the WRC, a lots of spectators and mainly opens the series to a giant market like the United States!

P.S.: Sardinia will use - probably on Sunday - some stages in TUSCANY (old Sanremo stages) in 2012, starting a probably full-comeback in the Mainland in the near future. :s mokin:

If Kenya doesn't have money to organise a world class event then I think the WRC as a sport needs to start thinking about subsidising the event. Sardinia will never be an iconic event, the Safari already is.

[Daniel]

I would add Sardinia to Finland and Acropolis, because they're putting new roads EVERY YEAR since 2004. Who else did something like that? In 2011 Day 1 was completely new, giving new challenges. And next year will be back in Tuscany...

What? Nothing to do with you being an Italian I'm sure. No one on here goes "Ooh I can't wait for Sardinia!!!!!!" like they do if Finland is coming up.

Tbh you should be shot for attempting to degrade the good name of NORF by lumping it in with a crap event like Sardinia.

[Motorsportfun]

If Kenya doesn't have money to organise a world class event then I think the WRC as a sport needs to start thinking about subsidising the event. Sardinia will never be an iconic event, the Safari already is.

Subsidising? Ahahahahah you're just raving!

So, if a company goes bankrupt, then the Government - according to you - must pay all on behalf of them! Don't make me laugh... that's just crazy!

[Red bull]

If Kenya doesn't have money to organise a world class event then I think the WRC as a sport needs to start thinking about subsidising the event. Sardinia will never be an iconic event, the Safari already is.

Unlike in the past the kenya government and kenyans at large are more than willing to have the safari back and are prepared to fund it all costs,the worlds greatest roughest toughest safari rally, to be a real champ its great to have a safari title under your belt..ask the greatest rally drivers ever kankunen,sainz,biason just to mention a few and you ll get a true taste of the safari.

[Daniel]

Subsidising? Ahahahahah you're just raving!

So, if a company goes bankrupt, then the Government - according to you - must pay all on behalf of them! Don't make me laugh... that's just crazy!

You clearly don't know the meaning of subsidy. To avoid you embarassing you further I'd suggest you stop replying.

[AndyRAC]

Forget the tarmac Sanremo, FIA wont homologate these roads. Thats sure.

SanRemo is a classic, everything that the WRC should be. Sardinia, with the best will in the world, is just another non-descript dry, dusty Rally. And sadly, sums up modern WRC thinking.

Regarding the Safari and other events, NorthOne/FiA whoever are charging too much money for sanctioning fees. This isn't F1...

[bluuford]

Guys, Safari is history. move on or dream on.
Sometimes some events disappear and some new events appear will be classic. I think that Rally Sardegna is one of those which might become classic in the future.

[Josti]

Sounds good, I'm also against Safari and have never understood why people really like this endurance test. But this year Sardinia was very nice and I actually would like to see this rally in the calendar.

Reading through McKleins Safari book and you immediately think how pathetic some WRC rallies are these days, and how great this event actually was. There's a nice quote from Richard Burns on the matter it got dropped from the calendar.

"The problem with the Safari was that it was cought in between what it wanted to be and what the World Championship demanded it to be."

But that was back in 2002, when the cloverleaf format was immenent. I think with the current direction, the Safari should have a place on the calendar in the future, although if Africa returns, South Africa could be seen as more valuable from promoters pov.

[Daniel]

Guys, Safari is history. move on or dream on.
Sometimes some events disappear and some new events appear will be classic. I think that Rally Sardegna is one of those which might become classic in the future.

There's nothing unique or interesting about Sardinia though. As it is we have too many dusty southern european/med/middle east rallies. We need more events like New Zealand which are gravel, but not hot dusty dusty gravel..... If rallies like Sardinia become classics in the future then the WRC is more or less dead.

[Daniel]

Reading through McKleins Safari book and you immediately think how pathetic some WRC rallies are these days, and how great this event actually was. There's a nice quote from Richard Burns on the matter it got dropped from the calendar.

"The problem with the Safari was that it was cought in between what it wanted to be and what the World Championship demanded it to be."

But that was back in 2002, when the cloverfield format was immenent. I think with the current direction, the Safari should have a place on the calendar in the future, although if Africa returns, South Africa could be seen as more valuable from promoters pov.

Like you say, the problem is not necessarily the sarari, but cloverleaf rallying.

I'm not sure about South Africa. Whilst it may be better in terms of the domestic market there, the value for someone watching in Japan or Finland or Australia is less than if the rally were run in Kenya.

[cali]

There's nothing unique or interesting about Sardinia though.

I feel the same about Safari, I guess it's a matter of taste. I really do not wish to see Safari back.

[bluuford]

There's nothing unique or interesting about Sardinia though. As it is we have too many dusty southern european/med/middle east rallies. We need more events like New Zealand which are gravel, but not hot dusty dusty gravel..... If rallies like Sardinia become classics in the future then the WRC is more or less dead.

You know, we do not have Cyprus and Turkey anymore. There are only two dusty events in Mediterranean: Sardegna and Acropolis. Greece is rough and dusty at the same time Sardegna is more smooth, sandy, maybe even more dusty. The nice thing I like about this rally is the fact they introduce new stages each year, landscape is extremely nice, roads are very variable and for me, it is something that makes this event different to others. They cover big part of the island, which is good in promotional perspective and at the same time it is more challenging for drivers.

[Josti]

I feel the same about Safari, I guess it's a matter of taste. I really do not wish to see Safari back.

Saying the Safari isn't unique is just mad, even if you don't like the event.

[Barreis]

Safari and SanRemo should be back.

[Mitch555]

Safari Rally - pros and cons
Operations Perspective:
- Safari is a logistical nightmare, due to the massive expanses of stages etc. (Dakar gets around this by roadbook, and state series use a more descriptive road book to make a better balance between safety and speed).
- Cloverleaf format 'required'. Jean Todt has already backed this move away from cloverleaf for some events. 10 years ago this would have been a bigger hassle, as media needed the one spot in order to set up effectively. Again, lessons learnt from Dakar. And that is a far bigger operation than Safari will ever be.
- Lack of money to get the event running - subsidise - loan Kenya the money to get it started, get it back later.
- Can it run between Kenya and somewhere else to increase the money pool.
- flow on effects to the rally region are fantastic, something which really needs to be taken into account.
- We need to remember rallying is a rural sport, and not complete 'glitz and glamour' like our F1 cousin.

Marketing Perspective
- Absolute dream for all involved.
- it is like Monte, you win the Safari, you are always remembered and will treasure it.
- Unique - smashing through Africa at 200kph is always spectacular due to its unique challenges. It gets attention, like Monte does due to its uniqueness. Monte reached 14,000,000 viewers this year plus those who watched through third party streaming. That is with IRC promotion. The WRC version would be bigger again. Safari is the same. 14 million would not watch a live stream from Sardinia for example.
- The flow on effects for teams, tyre manufacturers etc. is huge. Conquering the Safari is still a big thing. People today still look back talk about Mini at Monte in the 60s, and those amazing images from the early 90s of Grp A in Kenya are iconic pictures.
- re-establishing the WRC brand in a market we should be in. Africa is never going to work with circuit racing, at least with rally we have a fighting chance.

As a privateer wanting a crack at a WRC event. My first picks will always be Monte, Safari, Finland, UK. You aren't getting the same out of Jordan.

Safari along with Monte Carlo & Finland are events which all motorsports fan take some interest in to a degree. A rally in Sardinia, it's just another rally. It isn't going to draw more people in. Your average person who isn't a devoted rally fan will watch these events due to the adventure and the variability in conditions and influencers on the result.

[Daniel]

You know, we do not have Cyprus and Turkey anymore. There are only two dusty events in Mediterranean: Sardegna and Acropolis. Greece is rough and dusty at the same time Sardegna is more smooth, sandy, maybe even more dusty. The nice thing I like about this rally is the fact they introduce new stages each year, landscape is extremely nice, roads are very variable and for me, it is something that makes this event different to others. They cover big part of the island, which is good in promotional perspective and at the same time it is more challenging for drivers.

Sorry, but the landscape in Sardinia seems boring. I think new stages are a more or less worthless thing. Rally fans love having big name stages. Say Muresk, Bunnings, Langley Park or York Railway and most hardcore fans will say "Ah!!!! Rally Australia!!!!" say Lago Omodeo and people will say Lago Omodeo you too asshole!!!!!! :angryfire Ouninpohja, Turini and so on are just epics, you don't need new crap stages when you have epic stages....

Whilst Turkey and Cyprus are gone (thank god) we still have Jordan which is another crapfest which has even less scenery than Sardinia.

[Daniel]

Safari Rally - pros and cons
Operations Perspective:
- Safari is a logistical nightmare, due to the massive expanses of stages etc. (Dakar gets around this by roadbook, and state series use a more descriptive road book to make a better balance between safety and speed).
- Cloverleaf format 'required'. Jean Todt has already backed this move away from cloverleaf for some events. 10 years ago this would have been a bigger hassle, as media needed the one spot in order to set up effectively. Again, lessons learnt from Dakar. And that is a far bigger operation than Safari will ever be.
- Lack of money to get the event running - subsidise - loan Kenya the money to get it started, get it back later.
- Can it run between Kenya and somewhere else to increase the money pool.
- flow on effects to the rally region are fantastic, something which really needs to be taken into account.
- We need to remember rallying is a rural sport, and not complete 'glitz and glamour' like our F1 cousin.

Marketing Perspective
- Absolute dream for all involved.
- it is like Monte, you win the Safari, you are always remembered and will treasure it.
- Unique - smashing through Africa at 200kph is always spectacular due to its unique challenges. It gets attention, like Monte does due to its uniqueness. Monte reached 14,000,000 viewers this year plus those who watched through third party streaming. That is with IRC promotion. The WRC version would be bigger again. Safari is the same. 14 million would not watch a live stream from Sardinia for example.
- The flow on effects for teams, tyre manufacturers etc. is huge. Conquering the Safari is still a big thing. People today still look back talk about Mini at Monte in the 60s, and those amazing images from the early 90s of Grp A in Kenya are iconic pictures.
- re-establishing the WRC brand in a market we should be in. Africa is never going to work with circuit racing, at least with rally we have a fighting chance.

As a privateer wanting a crack at a WRC event. My first picks will always be Monte, Safari, Finland, UK. You aren't getting the same out of Jordan.

Safari along with Monte Carlo & Finland are events which all motorsports fan take some interest in to a degree. A rally in Sardinia, it's just another rally. It isn't going to draw more people in. Your average person who isn't a devoted rally fan will watch these events due to the adventure and the variability in conditions and influencers on the result.

Amen brother. A-f***ing-men to that.

I think a rally should almost always bring something unique to the party.

For instance I think Rally Australia should be in Perth (with its ball bearing gravel) or not in Australia at all.

I'll give

my thoughts on the current calendar
Sweden - Superb as ever, but it really should be the 2nd round, after the Monte.
Mexico - Sorry, boring.
Portugal - Seems OK, but I preferred it where they used to have it back in 2001.
Jordan - Sorry, it's crap.
Sardinia - Crap
Argentina - OK
Greece - Good rally
Finland - FANTASTIC!
Rallye Deutschland - I actually quite like it.
Rally Oz - Sorry but it's just another gravel event......
Rally De France - Having seen some footage I think this could be a good event. But I'll wait till it's run. Would prefer Corsica if I'm honest.
Rally Spain - I preferred the older route if I'm honest but it's OK
Rally GB - An event completely ruined by having it more or less contained in one corner of the UK. It's ranging further afield this year which should be good, but if I'm honest I'd prefer to see it held in Chester so it can take in a bigger variety of stages.