The Michelin Dilemma

[gco0307]

Well there is much discussion in other forums surrounding the (poor) performance of the Michelin tyres in the MotoGP class over the last few rounds, so I figured why not start a discussion here (given that this place has a smaller but more level headed member base (IMO)).

Is the performance really in issue or is it cyclical?

The performance of the Michelin tyres at the start of the season appeared to be a return to being competitive, so what has gone wrong these last few races?

Given that I started the thread I figure that I would throw one of my thoughts into the mix as well.

Whilst it has been said many times in the media that Colin Edwards is the main Michelin development rider (something that he has also claimed) to me the current performance issue woudl indicate otherwise.

My theory relates around Valentino Rossi and goes like this.

2007 was a problematic year for Michelin who were caught somewhat 'on the hop' by Bridgestone, but moreso by the change to the 800cc capacity and it's subsequent effect on tyre use/characteristics. Remebering at the same time that Ducati had been using the 'stones for a few years so were familiar with the tyre's characteristics and had been working with Bridgestone in the development of the tyre.

My thinking is that in 2007 due to the initial problems and the vocal public criticism by Rossi, Michelin threw everything at developing a tyre based around VR's requirements and wants. This of course meant that others suffered as no tyre was being developed based on their needs but given that VR so influential but above all else, so damn good, his general requirements would have suited the majority.

Forward to 2008 where VR has 'walked away' from Michelin and instead is now using the Bridgestones.

For the first few round the Michelin were quite a good tyre, certainly nobody saw any real performance issues (leaving aside wet weather) and expected continued development. Instead, now we have a massive degradation of the tyre quality that is so severe that many long term Michelin riders are looking at the switch.

Could the reason for the performance be that the Valentino Rossi influence has now worn off in that the early season tyres were based upon his 2007 feedback?

Now we are left with tyres based developed to satisfy the masses (ie. all riders) as opposed to just satisfying one of the greats?

I honestly do not know but feel that it could make an interesting discussion.

Thoughts.






Garry

The technology involved in developing a tyre for motorcycle racing is obviously well beyond the knowledge of us common folk therefore the majority of us are not qualified to offer valid technical criticism.

However, Michelin has been around long enough to know which compound, profile and method of construction should work best on different surfaces at different temperatures.

Michelin have obviously been running second in the race tyre race for some time now but in the case of Brno, the re-surfacing of the track coupled with the wet weather prior to race-day and lack of dry-weather testing opportunity had no doubt caught everyone off-guard and both manufacturers guessing which tyres in their range were going to work best on the day.



The only opportunity either Bridgestone or Michelin had to test their dry weather tyres on the new Brno surface had been during warmup on race-day. However if Michelin want to stay in the game, they need to improve their product. Bridgestone just have the edge at this point in time.
Just digressing........I recall 30 years ago when Michelin and Pirelli were the ant's-pants in car tyres, that Michelins would outlast any others and stick like the proverbial sh** to a blanket but when they let go, it was rapid and your backside would pucker like a godfishes mouth whereas the Pirellis were a softer tyre, gave slightly less grip but you could feel when you were about to lose the rear end and leave the black stuff.

Control tyres seem to be the way to go in Moto GP then everyone will be on par in that regard.

PS. Get rid of qualifying tyres.

[NinjaMaster]

It's an interesting one. Both Michelin and Bridgestone had been pretty even until the last 3 rounds. I think the injury and absence of Pedrosa in the last couple of races along with Hayden missing Brno and Lorenzo's complete mental disintergration from a bike that seems determined to throw him on the ground have compounded things but clearly Bridgestone are gaining the upper hand.
Is it terminal? I personally don't think so as Michelin have a long history of success and I feel that they would turn it around as they had done for the first half of the year. I liked the idea of a control tyre for WSB to create equal access to good equipment for all but in MotoGP I don't think that the same favouritism is present that was in WSB.
It appears that a Bridgestone control tyre is on the cards for next year which to me reduces competition and takes more money out of the sport that is struggling to find it in the first place.
Interesting times ahead whatever happens.

[MrJan]

Some years you just get caught out I think.

I'd doubt that Rossi is so amazingly good that he can specify what a tyre needs to have changed to make it competitive for all the riders using it.

And never mind us lot knowing, I don't think Michelin do either which is going to see them out of the sport next season. Even if a control tyre isn't introduced then I can't see many manufacturers opting for 'lins over 'stones, they'd be better off bringing back the Dunlops ;) :p :

[ChrisS]

The only opportunity either Bridgestone or Michelin had to test their dry weather tyres on the new Brno surface had been during warmup on race-day.

both manufacturers had a two-day test back in June to decide on their tyres for the race. Bridgestone got it right, Michelin didnt. I hope Michelin did a better job collecting data for the tyres they are going to use at Indy.

Dani is getting quite vocal against michelin. rumours are that he wants a FIAT Yamaha style team for next season a garage divided in 2, no data sharing no nothing, with him on Bridgstone tyres and his team mate (Dovi?) on Michelins.

From the press release after the monday test at Brno


“We tried some different front tyres that Michelin brought here for this test, but we finished after some laps because we couldn't find any improvement. We tested the tyres with my current race bike, there was no point using the machine with the pneumatic-valve engine because the tyres weren’t working well enough. We have rescheduled this test at Misano, on the Monday after the San Marino GP.”

[ChrisS]

It appears that a Bridgestone control tyre is on the cards for next year which to me reduces competition and takes more money out of the sport that is struggling to find it in the first place.
Interesting times ahead whatever happens.

How does a control tyre take money away? In general a control tyre is considered a cost cutting measure

[leopard]

Michelin have a huge experience providing tyres for racing. At the start of this season they were strong, people put the blame on Rossi for the wrong choice of tyres. It's very likely that their development is stagnated during the break. If not Brno typical of race is not in conformity to meet the spec of Michelin.

Actually the long break could be an opportunity to do various testing to determine which compound workable especially for the first race post break. Fallen asleep when your competitor is working hard, will obviously put you left out. With their experience, I think they will improve to be competitive again.

[mx311]

How does a control tyre take money away? In general a control tyre is considered a cost cutting measure
Most (if not all) of the top teams receive at least some money from their tyre supplier, a control tyre removes that money.

Michelin should bounce back (if they're given the chance), they are just lacking direction at the moment, they need to get used to the regulations that changed last year stopping them from bringing more tyres during the race weekend. You don't just change the way you do business and have always done business overnight, they will still be caught out every now and then (such as last weekend).

Personally I think if MotoGP goes to a control tyre then the contract should go to Michelin because they have been around forever and should be rewarded for sticking with MotoGP through thick and thin. And besides if their was no Bridgestone the Michelins wouldn't look quite so bad. ;)

[leopard]

My understanding the more sponsor involved in the competition would always mean more money in the championship. To let michelin out would mean taking money away from the series as it gets ride of tyres competition.

We will simply watch the race day, there no need qualifying tyres and they can use the same tyres as used in the real race. How much disadvantage suffered from losing spectator during qualifying is probably an amount to mention.

[The Phantom]

Michelin should bounce back (if they're given the chance), they are just lacking direction at the moment, they need to get used to the regulations that changed last year stopping them from bringing more tyres during the race weekend. You don't just change the way you do business and have always done business overnight, they will still be caught out every now and then (such as last weekend).

Yep that's how I was viewing it. Bridgestone are still doing just what they've always done, Michelin are still not used to the fact that they can't just fly in another batch and another batch until they get it right.


Personally I think if MotoGP goes to a control tyre then the contract should go to Michelin because they have been around forever and should be rewarded for sticking with MotoGP through thick and thin. And besides if their was no Bridgestone the Michelins wouldn't look quite so bad. ;)

There's merit in that; I tend to favour Bridgestone but I have no logical basis for doing so, aside from a tendency to support the underdog... my cars and bikes are on Michelins... :rolleyes: (any sports-biased riders here, you HAVE to give the Michelin Pilot Power 2CTs a whirl, they are GOLD!)

[gco0307]

Personally I think if MotoGP goes to a control tyre then the contract should go to Michelin because they have been around forever and should be rewarded for sticking with MotoGP through thick and thin. And besides if their was no Bridgestone the Michelins wouldn't look quite so bad. ;)


Personally I totally dislike the idea of a forced control tyre, but if we go that way I would ask Dunlop if they were interested.

I would do this simply because whether Bridgestone or Michelin get the deal, it is unfair on those teams that have were using the opposite rubber in 2008 as they have no information from which to start in 2009. By this, if the deal were to use teh 'stones, those teams who have Bridgestone experience already have data from which to work in 2009 thus have an advantage over those teams that do not have this data.

That said, a possible resolution would be to allow test days open only to those teams/riders contracted to the opposite rubber.

Just my thoughts.




Garry

[ArmchairBikeFan]

OK, I'll take the bait and be the lone voice that says tyre wars suck and a control tyre would be an improvement. All it does is robs you of racing, as at the last 3 races.

I don't care which company gets the contract. There should be no loyalty to Michelin just because they've been in the series for years. It's a dog eat dog world, and the Bridgestone rottweiler is eating the Michelin mutt for breakfast.

[NinjaMaster]

OK, I'll take the bait and be the lone voice that says tyre wars suck and a control tyre would be an improvement. All it does is robs you of racing, as at the last 3 races.

I don't care which company gets the contract. There should be no loyalty to Michelin just because they've been in the series for years. It's a dog eat dog world, and the Bridgestone rottweiler is eating the Michelin mutt for breakfast.
Like the bad old days of GP and WSB when Michelin and Dunlop used to battle it out?
I'm not entirely against a control tire but I'd prefer the competition between the two companies. Michelin will come back. They are too resourceful and proud not to. And Pilot Power Sports are fantastic tires!

[ChrisS]

In the end though, just before SBK went to control tyres it wasnt much of a tyre battle. There were HRC and Ducati Corse that could afford/were sponsored by Michelin and the rest on Dunlops and again there were the top teams that were getting the good Dunlops and the lesser teams that were getting what was left.

[NinjaMaster]

Yes, for WSB it was necessary as Michelin made their best tyres exclusively available for HRC and Ducati Corse as you say ChrisS and Dunlop were crippled after the Kobe(?) earthquake that ruined one of their manufacturing plants. Also, WSB has a far higher participation rate of privateers so it makes them more able to compete on a level playing field to the 'factory' teams. I don't think the same problem is happening in MotoGP though and I think Michelin have the resources to catch up to Bridgestone but time will tell if Dorna have a knee-jerk reaction to a couple of bad performances. Either way, Michelin will need a strong finish to the year to promote their case if they want to stay.

[Dr. Gellar]

OK, I'll take the bait and be the lone voice that says tyre wars suck and a control tyre would be an improvement. All it does is robs you of racing, as at the last 3 races.

I don't care which company gets the contract. There should be no loyalty to Michelin just because they've been in the series for years. It's a dog eat dog world, and the Bridgestone rottweiler is eating the Michelin mutt for breakfast.

You're not alone in regards to "tire wars" being lame. I'll second you on that!

[leopard]

We recognize OMR, One make race. All those are in the competition ride the same bike, and use the same tyres. This category could make people get excited. :)

[jonny hurlock]

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/Pedrosa+switches+to+Bridgestone+with+immediate+eff ect

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/news/168368-0/official__pedrosa_to_bridgestone!.html

surprise, surprise

[ChrisS]

I expect Pedrosa to be nowhere for the next 2-3 races, even if Nakano gave HRC and Bridgestone a starting point. This move to me sounds like HRC is focusing in 09

[neninja]

I've never forgiven Michelin for making the original Pilot Sport tyre. I bought a bike that was shod with these from new. Never have I been so desperate to trash a pair of tyres.

I've always bought Bridgestone or Pirelli for my bikes since.

That aside I'm amazed that Michelin haven't upped their game after the criticism they got last year. If any thing they have got worse in recent weeks than their lowest point last year.

It now looks almost inevitable that there will be a one make tyre next year and that it will be Bridgestone. When the usually reserved bosses at HRC go public about the embarrassment that Michelin is causing their team and riders then you know it's bad.

[ShiftingGears]

Pedrosa moving to Bridgestones is pretty damning towards the quality of the Michelins.