More Ford to quit threats

[MJW]

According to Motorsport News published in UK today Ford has ramped up the pressure on the FIA to get the WRC "sorted". Whilst it was agreed in principle that a global promoter was to be appointed, (ISC?) back in June, nothing seems to have developed. Also unless FIA make changes to the 2010 calendar to include Finland and Wales GB then its bye bye from Ford. A decision on whether Ford commits to the 2009 calendar could be made as late as November 2008. It may be brinksmanship but Mark Deans says how can he take proposals to Ford's board based on maybe's and if's - companies need to know if its worth commiting to a design / build programme based on promotion and which events are "in".

[DonJippo]

Anyone know how European is this Ford's participation to WRC or is it something that Ford US has to approve? In case it's US then I think it's bye bye Ford as things are not looking good on that side of Atlantic for car manufactures.

[AndyRAC]

Anyone know how European is this Ford's participation to WRC or is it something that Ford US has to approve? In case it's US then I think it's bye bye Ford as things are not looking good on that side of Atlantic for car manufactures.

While I couldn't be 100% sure, I think the WRC program is run by Ford of Europe.
Anyway, I couldn't blame Ford if they did pull out. It might be the straw that breaks the camels back. Really drastic action is needed to sort the WRC out. The last meeting was in June - when a global promoter was agreed. Since then nothing.
If I was in charge of a Manufacturer, then I'd pull the team out - the WRC is a dead duck. I am probably wrong, but apart from Finland, is there any other country interested?

[Rallyst3ve]

DonJippo
Anyone know how European is this Ford's participation to WRC or is it something that Ford US has to approve? In case it's US then I think it's bye bye Ford as things are not looking good on that side of Atlantic for car manufactures.


M-Sport from Cumbria in the UK currently have a contract with Ford and are responsible for running Ford's WRC Team. But its Ford not M-Sport who will decide whether they take to the stages next year :eek:

[Saabaru]

All the manufacturers who want to Rally need to sit down together and start a new World Championship with a new sanctioning committee and tell the FIA to take a hike.

[jparker]

I think FIA is trying to sort out bigger problems then Ford's likes and dislikes. I guess Ford are not on FIA's agenda at all.

[MJW]

M-Sport from Cumbria in the UK currently have a contract with Ford and are responsible for running Ford's WRC Team. But its Ford not M-Sport who will decide whether they take to the stages next year :eek:
The Motorsport News article said M-Sport contract is due for renewal end of 08. I may also be reading too much into this but Olivier Quensel said he / Citroen is in no rush to sign Sebastien Ogier or even give him a test in a Citroen WRC. - DTM anyone?

[jparker]

The Motorsport News article said M-Sport contract is due for renewal end of 08. I may also be reading too much into this but Olivier Quensel said he / Citroen is in no rush to sign Sebastien Ogier or even give him a test in a Citroen WRC. - DTM anyone?

Well, sooner or later Citroen will be out of WRC, thay have nothing else to prove, so DTM sounds good to me. I keep my eyes on IRC instead ;)

[Tomi]

According to Motorsport News published in UK today Ford has ramped up the pressure on the FIA to get the WRC "sorted". Whilst it was agreed in principle that a global promoter was to be appointed, (ISC?) back in June, nothing seems to have developed. Also unless FIA make changes to the 2010 calendar to include Finland and Wales GB then its bye bye from Ford. A decision on whether Ford commits to the 2009 calendar could be made as late as November 2008. It may be brinksmanship but Mark Deans says how can he take proposals to Ford's board based on maybe's and if's - companies need to know if its worth commiting to a design / build programme based on promotion and which events are "in".

Actually all the teams has sent letters to FIA demanding the same things.

[MJW]

Actually all the teams has sent letters to FIA demanding the same things.
Yes, but I think its the seeming lack of response from FIA that brought this re-newed threat from Ford.

[Torsen]

Well, sooner or later Citroen will be out of WRC, thay have nothing else to prove, so DTM sounds good to me. I keep my eyes on IRC instead ;)

thats my problem i can't keep my eyes open when watching the IRC....

[Tomi]

Yes, but I think its the seeming lack of response from FIA that brought this re-newed threat from Ford.

Thats possible, but there is still time until the next meeting, normally they announce only after the meetings, but I think FIA will reconsider their stupid decition, based only on politics.

[sollitt]

All the manufacturers who want to Rally need to sit down together and start a new World Championship with a new sanctioning committee and tell the FIA to take a hike.
Have you ever considered that a large part of the reason we have experienced difficulties through the past few years is because the manufacturers have been unable to "sit down together" and reach consensus on anything.

[Saabaru]

Have you ever considered that a large part of the reason we have experienced difficulties through the past few years is because the manufacturers have been unable to "sit down together" and reach consensus on anything.
Have you ever considered they are not only fighting each other but the sanctioning body itselfe? More could happen if the FIA and their politics weren't in the equation. The FIA functions about as efficiently as a government now days, to many people with personal agendas.

[Donney]

Another page in the book of the slow death of WRC.
I understand Ford and all the teams asking for specific regulations and calendars.

[AndyRAC]

While I'm no fan of the F1A, there does need to be a strong governing body to run the sport. If the Manufacturers ran the sport can you imagine how it would look? They want maximum exposure for minimum cost, forgeting the sporting side of the Championship. What's to stop them just running a handful of stages repeated 3-4 times and saying 'this is the WRC'.

[DonJippo]

Have you ever considered they are not only fighting each other but the sanctioning body itselfe? More could happen if the FIA and their politics weren't in the equation. The FIA functions about as efficiently as a government now days, to many people with personal agendas.

And you think it helps that manufactures each have their own agenda?

[Donney]

While I'm no fan of the F1A, there does need to be a strong governing body to run the sport. If the Manufacturers ran the sport can you imagine how it would look? They want maximum exposure for minimum cost, forgeting the sporting side of the Championship. What's to stop them just running a handful of stages repeated 3-4 times and saying 'this is the WRC'.

Not that the current situation is much different though, but I see your point....

[tmx]

thats my problem i can't keep my eyes open when watching the IRC....

don't think i don't fall asleep watching wrc coverage.

[cosmicpanda]

Why only Finland and GB and not Monte? I think it's because Ford know that they can't win it again. :)

It might be a good thing for the big manufacturers to pull out. That'll put a bigger emphasis on the amateurs, which will make it more like the old days, and that seems to be something that everybody wants.

If there are no manufacturers, then there is no money, and then therefore there is no big spending. Instant cost cuts. The only downside is that events like Rally NZ and Rally Mexico, for example, will suffer again due to the lack of top teams paying the money to come from Europe.

I think that with Marcus retiring, Colin dying, and Sebastien's many years on top, the WRC is coming to the close of another great era. It's natural for things to build up and die down, I think - this is hardly F1, where corporate sponsorship and government support seems to be helping things along. It's one of the reasons that I like WRC better - it will never be as glamorous as F1.

The new cars will be slow at first, but they will get faster. They always do.

EDIT: A slight concern is the effect that this will have on rally routes. I've noticed that smaller rallies tend to feature stages run three times, even on gravel, and only over two days. I hope that this doesn't happen. I'm enjoying the trend towards more diverse and longer routes that we're experiencing right now.

[DonJippo]

Why only Finland and GB and not Monte? I think it's because Ford know that they can't win it again. :)

Because Monte don't want to be every year in the calendar, where as Finland and GB wants.

[AndyRAC]

Because Monte don't want to be every year in the calendar, where as Finland and GB wants.

Monte want to get to run an 'old style' Rally. Finland because they're big fans of the sport, while for GB it's a 'cash cow'.

[Tom206wrc]

While I couldn't be 100% sure, I think the WRC program is run by Ford of Europe.
Anyway, I couldn't blame Ford if they did pull out. It might be the straw that breaks the camels back. Really drastic action is needed to sort the WRC out. The last meeting was in June - when a global promoter was agreed. Since then nothing.
If I was in charge of a Manufacturer, then I'd pull the team out - the WRC is a dead duck. I am probably wrong, but apart from Finland, is there any other country interested?



What international motorsport would Ford enter instead of WRC ??? :confused:

Back in F1 ?? Endurance racing ??? Gt championships ?? American motorsports only ?? Stay in rally but in IRC(developping an S2000) ???

[RS]

What international motorsport would Ford enter instead of WRC ??? :confused:

Back in F1 ?? Endurance racing ??? Gt championships ?? American motorsports only ?? Stay in rally but in IRC(developping an S2000) ???

There's no rule that says Ford have to do any motorsports.

They can't really afford it anyway looking at their trading figures on a global basis.

[MJW]

Ford actually withrew from rallying at the end 1979 and did not return at the top level untill 1985/6 with RS200.
Also, quite worryingly someone in the manufacturing side of the motor industry told me that with all this environmental and safety driven world of ours that manufacturers prefer to attach themselves to "lifestyle sports" yachting, horse jumping, golf, tennis etc. rather than promote their motorsport success. Motorsport success can be viewed negatively re. promoting speed / using resources etc. thats why we need the bulls**t about green fuel, eco tyres etc in motorsport.

[jonkka]

Ford actually withrew from rallying at the end 1979 and did not return at the top level untill 1985/6 with RS200.

True but their intention was to be back much earlier with RS1700T. Luckily for them, when Stuart Turner returned to head Ford's rallying activities he recognized that they were building another Lancia 037 instead of a winner and canned it. Which led to three years worth of delays.


Motorsport success can be viewed negatively re. promoting speed / using resources etc. thats why we need the bulls**t about green fuel, eco tyres etc in motorsport.

I do not see these developments negative at all. Motorsport cannot stay disconnected from the real world and for example environmental issues have been discussed forcefully since 1980s. WRC has stayed viable so long because organisers have listened to concerns of local inhabitants, green movement, legislators and population in general.

[MJW]

I do not see these developments negative at all. Motorsport cannot stay disconnected from the real world and for example environmental issues have been discussed forcefully since 1980s. WRC has stayed viable so long because organisers have listened to concerns of local inhabitants, green movement, legislators and population in general.
Have you noticed that Audi and the LeMans TDI & Shell V Power Diesel successes seem to be the only motorsport winning based promotions recently. What I meant to say these adverts are publicising the economy and cleanliness of the fuel.

[Daniel]

I think Citroen and Ford leaving would be a great thing. It would kill the WRC off totally. Only then will the FIA understand the mistakes that have been made and give the manufacturers a championship that is workable and good for spectators to watch. I'm praying Ford and Citroen leave. Would be a pity for the guys only just getting into the WRC but good for the sport in the long term.

[Saabaru]

And you think it helps that manufactures each have their own agenda?
No I don't, but the FIA has a monopoly and that always leads to stagnation and corruption. I was excited when I first heard about the IRC and thought the competition between them woud motivate the WRC to better promote itself and try to attract more manufacturers into the sport. Once again the FIA proved they had no interest in the WRC and continued to focus on promoting other formulas of racing and treating the WRC as if it was inferior.
We had the same problem here in the United States with the SCCA (Now Rally America), the upper management in the association had their own personal agenda and had no interest in Rally or its potential to grow in the U.S. This eventually led to the SCCA droping Rally entirely and the birth of Rally America. RA wasn't much different because they had a monopoly and no motivation to change rally in the US. Then NASA (National Auto Sport Association) and the USRC (United States Rally Championship) steped up and and started new Rallies in new places unreached by the SCCA and RA. Now wile being very slow because the majority of Americans don't even know what Rally Racing is, the sport is now growing.

[BDunnell]

I do not see these developments negative at all. Motorsport cannot stay disconnected from the real world and for example environmental issues have been discussed forcefully since 1980s. WRC has stayed viable so long because organisers have listened to concerns of local inhabitants, green movement, legislators and population in general.

:up:

[Saabaru]

I think Citroen and Ford leaving would be a great thing. It would kill the WRC off totally. Only then will the FIA understand the mistakes that have been made and give the manufacturers a championship that is workable and good for spectators to watch. I'm praying Ford and Citroen leave. Would be a pity for the guys only just getting into the WRC but good for the sport in the long term.
That would defiantly help but I'm afraid they would only do what it takes to get the WRC limping back allong and nothing more.

[BDunnell]

Let's face it, it's not just been the FIA that has shown itself incapable of running a successful rally championship in recent years. You only have to look at the parlous state of British rallying to see this.

[DonJippo]

I do not see these developments negative at all. Motorsport cannot stay disconnected from the real world and for example environmental issues have been discussed forcefully since 1980s. WRC has stayed viable so long because organisers have listened to concerns of local inhabitants, green movement, legislators and population in general.

It's just pity there are only few people in sport who really have understood this. Regardless how little effect motorsport in reality has to the climate and all it has a very big image influence and now it starts to be last moments really to start acting before it's too late.

[MJW]

Let's face it, it's not just been the FIA that has shown itself incapable of running a successful rally championship in recent years. You only have to look at the parlous state of British rallying to see this.
I think what Mark Higgins said in Autosport a few weeks ago regarding the cars is partly to blame. Mark said that whilst the current Group N cars are very fast and efficient they are very boring to watch, with no sound, cornering on rails etc. People are really missing the thrill of rallying, the historic rallying scene in UK is thriving.
Mark also suggested that instead of converting front wheel drive cars, Focus / C4, 207, Grande Punto etc to take 4WD systems the work on the shells could continue to make RWD versions with a 2.5 litre N/A engine, decent suspension and brakes at each corner, a modern robust gearbox and a price cap of say £60,000 which I think is about €80,000 at current exchange rates. Fix the homologation for 3 years and you could get an affordable spectacular rallying that a talented (not necessarily millionaire) young driver could get noticed. One thing is true WRC has many things wrong with it. The TV is a let down and to be honest you have to watch a rally on the stages to appreciate the speed and commitment of the top drivers. This does not readily transfer to TV viewing.

[BDunnell]

I think what Mark Higgins said in Autosport a few weeks ago regarding the cars is partly to blame. Mark said that whilst the current Group N cars are very fast and efficient they are very boring to watch, with no sound, cornering on rails etc. People are really missing the thrill of rallying, the historic rallying scene in UK is thriving.
Mark also suggested that instead of converting front wheel drive cars, Focus / C4, 207, Grande Punto etc to take 4WD systems the work on the shells could continue to make RWD versions with a 2.5 litre N/A engine, decent suspension and brakes at each corner, a modern robust gearbox and a price cap of say £60,000 which I think is about €80,000 at current exchange rates. Fix the homologation for 3 years and you could get an affordable spectacular rallying that a talented (not necessarily millionaire) young driver could get noticed. One thing is true WRC has many things wrong with it. The TV is a let down and to be honest you have to watch a rally on the stages to appreciate the speed and commitment of the top drivers. This does not readily transfer to TV viewing.

The trouble is that none of this sits well with manufacturers, very few of whom build suitable rear-wheel-drive cars any more. I'm afraid I for one think the WRC needs some manufacturer support, and I don't think a formula involving cars of a configuration that they don't build would appeal.

[AndyRAC]

The trouble is that none of this sits well with manufacturers, very few of whom build suitable rear-wheel-drive cars any more. I'm afraid I for one think the WRC needs some manufacturer support, and I don't think a formula involving cars of a configuration that they don't build would appeal.

I agree that the WRC does need Manufacturer support, however - I can't remember when Ford, Citroen had 4WD versions of the Focus and C4. Personally, I think that 4WD has proved it's point - I no longer see the point in continuing with it if the Manufacturers don't even/or won't use it.

[A.F.F.]

Well, we can blame FIA all we want but these are difficult questions to find solutions. Heck, we can't even find a one way here on the forum. A couple of years ago I suggested we the wise here could write an open letter to FIA, and suggest what we, the fans want from our beloved sport. Nice suggest which never happened.

Couple of things are for sure anyway. One is to make rules long term so manufacturers can rely on them and second is to make it cheaper so it would appeal the manufacturers more. Anything else comes after these right?

Manufactures has to play the game rough. It seems to be the only way they are heard. Personally I think this would be a right moment to retire from WRC because deep inside I still believe Ford will continue rallying with S2000 set of rules. Hence the one year absence before that could be a wake-up call enough towards FIA, like is this what you really want? :mark:

[Saabaru]

Awd cars that can be used in rally; Subaru, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Toyota, Skoda, Volvo, Saab, Hyundai, VW, Audi, Seat, Mazda, shall I go on... FWD cars in rally trying to force everyone else to go 2wd; Citroen and Ford

[MJW]

It is as much of a deviation from original car to make a 4WD C4/Focus etc as it is to have a RWD version. Does the family guy go to a Ford dealer thinking his car is like Mikko's? - It's roughly the same shape and that's it. Manufacturers woud have a cheaper way of showing their cars, to the average car buying person it will still be a Focus / C4 or whatever

[Zico]

It is as much of a deviation from original car to make a 4WD C4/Focus etc as it is to have a RWD version. Does the family guy go to a Ford dealer thinking his car is like Mikko's? - It's roughly the same shape and that's it. Manufacturers woud have a cheaper way of showing their cars, to the average car buying person it will still be a Focus / C4 or whatever

Maybe they see switching to RWD for rallying an admission to the public that FWD is 2nd class to RWD and thus detremental to their design ethos?

[MJW]

Maybe they see switching to RWD for rallying an admission to the public that FWD is 2nd class to RWD and thus detremental to their design ethos?
So what does that make 4wd?

[Zico]

So what does that make 4wd?

4WD is seen as an offroad requirement, I think theres a big difference.

[A.F.F.]

4WD is seen as an offroad requirement, I think theres a big difference.

Not only as an offroad but also snowy/icy conditions. Or at least here in Finland people has chosen 4wd because of the winter.

[Saabaru]

There are many AWD cars on the market, not so many RWD. Does anyone want ford to use the Mustang in the WRC? It woud be interesting to watch, those things would be all over the place on loose surfaces. Or want BMW or Mercedes to start rallying? Because these are the only cars offered in RWD now days.

[MJW]

Not only as an offroad but also snowy/icy conditions. Or at least here in Finland people has chosen 4wd because of the winter.
But Subaru is the only manufacturer in the WRC that offers a 4WD standard car. Ford, Citroen, Suzuki, FIAT, Peugeot etc do not offer 4wd.

[Saabaru]

But Subaru is the only manufacturer in the WRC that offers a 4WD standard car. Ford, Citroen, Suzuki, FIAT, Peugeot etc do not offer 4wd.
You might want to research that and try again... ;)

[cosmicpanda]

Because Monte don't want to be every year in the calendar, where as Finland and GB wants.


Monte want to get to run an 'old style' Rally. Finland because they're big fans of the sport, while for GB it's a 'cash cow'.

What on earth does what the Monte Carlo organisers want have to do with what rallies Ford think should be in the calendar?

[DonJippo]

What on earth does what the Monte Carlo organisers want have to do with what rallies Ford think should be in the calendar?

If you know an event like in this case Monte don't want to be every year in the calendar why would you demand it to be there? Wouldn't that be silly?

[Torsen]

But Subaru is the only manufacturer in the WRC that offers a 4WD standard car. Ford, Citroen, Suzuki, FIAT, Peugeot etc do not offer 4wd.

and yet we still have subaru haters... how can you not support this company... green, believe in turbos, 4wd... sigh... i love subaru! :eek:

[grugsticles]

In a way, I sort of agree with Daniel.
Dump the WRC and any affiliation the FIA has with it and let the IRC take over. Those teams wanting to rally who currently have WRC machinery wouldnt find getting up to speed in the IRC too greater task.
The cost of developing a suitable car would be minimal in comparison to WRC budget as they are either Group N or S2000. Perhaps even allow manufacturers who dont have S2000 chassis to use current WRC chassis or something for the first year.

[RS]

In a way, I sort of agree with Daniel.
Dump the WRC and any affiliation the FIA has with it and let the IRC take over. Those teams wanting to rally who currently have WRC machinery wouldnt find getting up to speed in the IRC too greater task.
The cost of developing a suitable car would be minimal in comparison to WRC budget as they are either Group N or S2000. Perhaps even allow manufacturers who dont have S2000 chassis to use current WRC chassis or something for the first year.

There isn't a great deal of difference between a WRC chassis and an S2000 one anyway. The main difference is the transmission and the engine.

If Ford and/or Citroen quit then it would mean real problems for the WRC. Suzuki don't look too stable either.

IRC calendar for 2009 will probably look quite attractive to traditionalists as well.

[cosmicpanda]

If you know an event like in this case Monte don't want to be every year in the calendar why would you demand it to be there? Wouldn't that be silly?

Not at all. It's been there pretty much every year until now.

A better solution, I feel, would be to petition for more relaxed rules on rally routes. This way, Monte Carlo could stay and their organisers would be happy.

Then again, Ford doesn't seem to want Monte Carlo, which is understandable given Citroen's record there.

[AndyRAC]

Not at all. It's been there pretty much every year until now.

A better solution, I feel, would be to petition for more relaxed rules on rally routes. This way, Monte Carlo could stay and their organisers would be happy.

Then again, Ford doesn't seem to want Monte Carlo, which is understandable given Citroen's record there.

Ford don't want Monte - Tough!! That's what could happen if you let the Manufacturers run the sport - they will try to drop the events they're rubbish on.

[Lousada]

Dump the WRC and any affiliation the FIA has with it and let the IRC take over.

IRC has to comply with FIA regulations too. So you won't gain anything by killing the WRC. Just look at the examples of the World Touring Car Championship and the World Sports Car Championship, how long it took them to rebuild everything to a decent respectable level after their world titles got taken away.

[A.F.F.]

But Subaru is the only manufacturer in the WRC that offers a 4WD standard car. Ford, Citroen, Suzuki, FIAT, Peugeot etc do not offer 4wd.

My bad. What I meant was that other manufacturers have added 4WD to their selection and people in Finland favor for them. But I think Subaru is selling fairly good in Finland.

[Lousada]

It is as much of a deviation from original car to make a 4WD C4/Focus etc as it is to have a RWD version. Does the family guy go to a Ford dealer thinking his car is like Mikko's? - It's roughly the same shape and that's it. Manufacturers woud have a cheaper way of showing their cars, to the average car buying person it will still be a Focus / C4 or whatever

Does a family guy care about the WRC? It seems only fans care about rally. Almost all the rallymarketing the manufacturers do is aimed at rallyfans, not at hooking casual fans. This is the reason that it doesn't really matter if it's 4WD, FWD or RWD. F1 cars and Le Mans automobiles are RWD, V8 and a strange shape, yet there is a lot more money there then in the WRC.

[Zes]

But Subaru is the only manufacturer in the WRC that offers a 4WD standard car. Ford, Citroen, Suzuki, FIAT, Peugeot etc do not offer 4wd.

Suzuki does. SX4 and Swift are available as 4wd.

[Daniel]

Suzuki does. SX4 and Swift are available as 4wd.
Yes and Fiat also offers the Seidici (SX4 rebadged), the Panda 4x4 and the Panda Cross
Ford offers the Kuga
Peugeot also sells the 4007
Citroen sells the C-Crosser

So all of the manufacturers sell a 4wd model ;)

Or did he mean a 4wd standard car as in a saloon or a hatchback?

[MJW]

Yes and Fiat also offers the Seidici (SX4 rebadged), the Panda 4x4 and the Panda Cross
Ford offers the Kuga
Peugeot also sells the 4007
Citroen sells the C-Crosser

So all of the manufacturers sell a 4wd model ;)

Or did he mean a 4wd standard car as in a saloon or a hatchback?
I did mean a 4WD variant of the car that they rally or at least something in the same size, having posted the original I admit that I forgot that the hairdresser 4WD Suzuki is roughly the same product. as what they base the rally car. As for the Ford Kuga and Citroen off road (4wd) people carrier things maybe they should rally those products, - thats what Suzuki have done.
This is getting a bit off what I wanted to concentrate on and that is the wrc cars are too expensive, do not transfer the spectacular speed that they have well to television and that they corner on rails, in in the case of group N (and maybe the Focus sound awfull)

[Saabaru]

Ford don't want Monte - Tough!! That's what could happen if you let the Manufacturers run the sport - they will try to drop the events they're rubbish on.
Didn't ford win Monte not long ago?

[DonJippo]

Didn't ford win Monte not long ago?

Yes they did and Ford does not want Monte off the calendar it's Monte itself that wants it.

[cosmicpanda]

Didn't ford win Monte not long ago?

Marcus won it (and to be honest, he's one of my favourite drivers) but you can hardly say he won it on speed alone.


Yes they did and Ford does not want Monte off the calendar it's Monte itself that wants it.

But my point was, why should Ford care what Monte Carlo organisers want? Why is it suddenly being so considerate? I thought that Monte Carlo was the best opportunity of the year for corporate lunches etc.

I know that Monte Carlo's route next year is going to be more old style than ever, and that the organisers are taking advantage of their absence from the WRC for this to be so.

But we're talking about Ford's demands for rallies on the calendar, not Monte Carlo organisers. Sure, Monte Carlo wants to go back to the old days, but why does Ford not want Monte Carlo?

[Tomi]

But my point was, why should Ford care what Monte Carlo organisers want? Why is it suddenly being so considerate? I thought that Monte Carlo was the best opportunity of the year for corporate lunches etc.

I dont see how its so difficult to understand why all the top teams and subaru wants Monte and a few other key events to stay in the calender.

[DonJippo]

But my point was, why should Ford care what Monte Carlo organisers want?

Because you can't have an event if there is no-one organising it, can you? Monte don't want to be in WRC calendar every year so I find it difficult for any team to demand it to be in the calendar every year from FIA.

[cosmicpanda]

I dont see how its so difficult to understand why all the top teams and subaru wants Monte and a few other key events to stay in the calender.

I must apologize, I have all along been under the impression that we were talking about 2009, not 2010. So yes, I can understand this.


Because you can't have an event if there is no-one organising it, can you? Monte don't want to be in WRC calendar every year so I find it difficult for any team to demand it to be in the calendar every year from FIA.

I think that that the reason that Monte Carlo doesn't want to be in the calendar every year is because of the FIA's rules regarding rally routes. Relax these, and I think that Monte Carlo would want to be in the calendar.

[Rally Power]

Does anyone believe that the Monte organizer doesn’t want to be at the WRC in a permanent way???

The IRC solution was a an alternative to FIA rotation scheme, providing greater liberty on route and schedule issues, but surely the ACM guys wouldn’t trade a permanent WRC status for it…

Ford demands are difficult to understand: why on hearth only GB and FIN should remain permanent in the WRC???

The FIA rotation scheme it’s far from being a perfect solution, but at the end it provides a very needed cost reduction (that could allow the presence of new manufacturers) and a wide world coverage of rally sport.

Perhaps it’s no so bad as it seems, even if it is hard to accept that big nations like China, USA or even India aren’t promoted to the WRC. With the right support a presence of that country’s courses would be a major boost to the sport.

PS: it’s beginning to be a tradition – Ford management announces again the eventuality of leaving the WRC (last time was 3 years ago…). It’s a little sad to see a major company like Ford proceeding this way, with so many doubts und incertitude’s over their future.

[Daniel]

Does anyone believe that the Monte organizer doesn’t want to be at the WRC in a permanent way???

The IRC solution was a an alternative to FIA rotation scheme, providing greater liberty on route and schedule issues, but surely the ACM guys wouldn’t trade a permanent WRC status for it…

Ford demands are difficult to understand: why on hearth only GB and FIN should remain permanent in the WRC???

The FIA rotation scheme it’s far from being a perfect solution, but at the end it provides a very needed cost reduction (that could allow the presence of new manufacturers) and a wide world coverage of rally sport.

Perhaps it’s no so bad as it seems, even if it is hard to accept that big nations like China, USA or even India aren’t promoted to the WRC. With the right support a presence of that country’s courses would be a major boost to the sport.

PS: it’s beginning to be a tradition – Ford management announces again the eventuality of leaving the WRC (last time was 3 years ago…). It’s a little sad to see a major company like Ford proceeding this way, with so many doubts und incertitude’s over their future.
I'm not really bothered about Ford leaving. When you consider the money that's been spent over the years they have spectacularly underachieved.

[DonJippo]

Ford demands are difficult to understand: why on hearth only GB and FIN should remain permanent in the WRC???

Ford has not said they want only FIN and GB to be permanent events, they said these two among other permanent events should be in calendar every year and therefore 2010 these events should be there as well.


The FIA rotation scheme it’s far from being a perfect solution, but at the end it provides a very needed cost reduction (that could allow the presence of new manufacturers) and a wide world coverage of rally sport.

Rotation system as such does not provide any cost reduction.

[MJW]

Rotation system as such does not provide any cost reduction.
Rotation can actually work against cost reduction as there are fixed costs of entring a rally. salaries, transportation, hotels etc. balanced against perceived marketing value. Citroen for example are not in favour of NZ or Mexico as theu do not sell cars in those countries.

[cosmicpanda]

I think that shouldn't matter so much. In this day and age, people in France can get live results of Rally NZ anyway.

[bowler]

Rotation can actually work against cost reduction as there are fixed costs of entring a rally. salaries, transportation, hotels etc. balanced against perceived marketing value. Citroen for example are not in favour of NZ or Mexico as theu do not sell cars in those countries.

Somebody better tell these guys then

http://www.citroen.co.nz/

Nothing on google about Mexico

[cosmicpanda]

As someone who lives in New Zealand, I can say that there are not many Citroens to be seen, when compared to Toyotas and things. Hell, I see more Porsches than Citroens. Maybe Porsche should make a car for Rally NZ?

[Brother John]

I'm not really bothered about Ford leaving. When you consider the money that's been spent over the years they have spectacularly underachieved.

It can be that Citroën would disappear after 2009 in WRC.
I´m not really bothered when Citroën would leaving. :p :

[52Paddy]

Can someone bring me up to speed here?

What I gather is that teams in the WRC are not getting the exposure that the manufacturers need. The investment into the WRC isn't favourable any more for the manufacturers and the threat on the brink is that teams may pull out. There is no wide-spread interest, not enough to run a safe campaign for the manufacturers' title anyway.

Is that what this is about? It sounds far from good news and I just want to know whats going on. On reading the thread, you all know what the situation is but I haven't heard of it. Not been in this forum for a while (nor have I bought Motorsport News :p : )

[MJW]

Can someone bring me up to speed here?

What I gather is that teams in the WRC are not getting the exposure that the manufacturers need. The investment into the WRC isn't favourable any more for the manufacturers and the threat on the brink is that teams may pull out. There is no wide-spread interest, not enough to run a safe campaign for the manufacturers' title anyway.

Is that what this is about? It sounds far from good news and I just want to know whats going on. On reading the thread, you all know what the situation is but I haven't heard of it. Not been in this forum for a while (nor have I bought Motorsport News :p : )
Yes - well summed up, return on investment is not good. It is self perpetuating, lack of interest (TV and spectators) and cost of cars.

[52Paddy]

Yes - well summed up, return on investment is not good. It is self perpetuating, lack of interest (TV and spectators) and cost of cars.

Nice one :up:

:(

[jens]

I think Citroen and Ford leaving would be a great thing. It would kill the WRC off totally. Only then will the FIA understand the mistakes that have been made and give the manufacturers a championship that is workable and good for spectators to watch. I'm praying Ford and Citroen leave. Would be a pity for the guys only just getting into the WRC but good for the sport in the long term.

Interesting and maybe a harsh thought, which I think actually has some point. It seems that Citroen's leaving is likely... at least to some extent, and if Ford stays, WRC would turn into a total borefest, because there would be no-one, who could trouble Ford. But if Ford leaves too, then in some strange way suddenly everyone has an opportunity as the benchmark-setters are gone. So if one of the current top two manufacturers decides to leave, then maybe according to some logic it would be beneficial to see the other one leaving too?

[m.lowe]

I think is S2000+ is made official then Ford and Citroen know where they are at
With the other teams coming into it they would be all in it together
Saying that if Citroen and Subaru supply more cars to other teams then it will be better next year than this as opposed to all the Foci that are out now as the Citroens are still leading the way and hope they get manufactures and driver titles this year.

[AndyRAC]

I think is S2000+ is made official then Ford and Citroen know where they are at
With the other teams coming into it they would be all in it together
Saying that if Citroen and Subaru supply more cars to other teams then it will be better next year than this as opposed to all the Foci that are out now as the Citroens are still leading the way and hope they get manufactures and driver titles this year.

But how expensive is S2000+ going to be? It needs to be significantly cheaper than WRCars for any new Manufacturer to come on board. Don't tell me it's going to be another opportunity lost, is it?

[Tomi]

But how expensive is S2000+ going to be? It needs to be significantly cheaper than WRCars for any new Manufacturer to come on board. Don't tell me it's going to be another opportunity lost, is it?

It will be offcourse a lost opportunity, because it has too few production car parts.

[OldF]

When all the manufacturers have left, the rules has to be changed because the manufacturer or the manufacturer’s official team is the only one who can homologate parts. The next step for the rules would be some kind of rally cross rules. Maybe the cars would be cheaper then.

http://teamrs.aeston.no/?vis=artikkel&fid=0&id=3004200813480928507&t=Racecar

The cost of this car is about 20% of a WRC car (2.000.000 skr ~ 210.000 €).