Will Sebastian make it to next year?

[Knock-on]

Berger has been suggesting he's not good enough and now says he has to improve to retain his seat.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=302647&FS=F1

Looks like the writing is on the wall a bit but perhaps they want a bit of stability instead?

[ArrowsFA1]

Sadly this kind of talk is inevitable. Bourdais was never really going to have the opportunity to grab the attentions of a better team while learning the F1 ropes in a Toro Rosso.

I don't think he's done badly against Vettel, and do think he deserves a second year, but his chances of progressing into a truly competitive race seat in the future are slim to zero.

[Garry Walker]

He was doing better than Vettel until the new Toro Rosso car came and after that he has just disappeared.

Bourdais was never really going to have the opportunity to grab the attentions of a better team while learning the F1 ropes in a Toro Rosso.

Eh?

Vettel has had the opportunity to grab the attentions of a better team while learning the ropes in a Toro Rosso.

And didn't Weber & Alonso catch the eye whilst learning the ropes in a Minardi?

Come to think of it, some bloke called Senna once made a real impression with a less-than-mega Toleman, as did a bloke called Lauda in an end-of-the-line BRM.

[ArrowsFA1]

Eh?
All of the examples you mention were new prospects. Bourdais had a highly successful 5yr career in Champcars and so to some extent had already proved himself as a winner.

For him to take a chance with a team like Toro Rosso in F1 was a big risk for his career at this point in his career. By "stepping down" he's had to prove himself all over again when he didn't need to. In that sense he is very different to the rookies you mention. Added to that you have the inbuilt F1 scepticism of anyone making the move across from US open-wheel racing, and he was up against Red Bull's favourite son Vettel.

In that sense more is expected of Bourdais than a driver out of, for example, F3 or GP2, and I'm not sure whether F1 is willing to give him the opportunity to show how good he could be.

[JSH]

Berger has been suggesting he's not good enough

When a team manager goes through 2 complete driver line-ups in 2 years, he should perhaps look more at himself.

[jens]

With Bourdais' seat arguably under threat, then look, who is rumoured to replace him. :p :
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080811103717.shtml

Anyway, I think this is quite telling, how consistently has Vettel been quicker than Bourdais. I'm even struggling to remember, when was the last weekend, when SB had the upper hand. Spanish GP? IMO it may well show that Der Seb is quite a consistent driver. ;)

[52Paddy]

Bourdais should have been in F1 much earlier. I remember seeing him race very competitively in F3 (2000? 2001? can't quite remember the year, he was with DAMS) before he went to America. It was at that time that I thought he should have went to F1. He went a different route and, one which I think will block the road for a succesful F1 career. It would have been nice to know his ability in F1 7 or 8 years ago though.

[gshevlin]

It seems that Gerhard Berger is determined to take over the role of Worst Team Driver Environment from Williams...if he fires Bourdais, that will be 2 complete sets of drivers lost in 2 seasons. That is starting to look like incompetence. Not only that, but one of the dropped drivers (Scott Speed) is now winning race after race in ARCA in the USA, which is likely to lead to the obvious question "was it Scott Speed who wasn't getting the job done, or was it STR?". What young driver is going to want to drive for STR with that kind of internal team support, especially given the fact that the team is for sale?
I think that the negative turning point was last season, when Franz Tost criticised the drivers publicly, and Berger sided with Tost. He should have fired Tost. You do not undermine drivers publicly like that. It is totally unprofessional.

[kollekole]

I agree with post above..........

[Nikki Katz]

I agree that Tost is awful and I don't understand why he wasn't at least questioned by the police over the Speed incident. He's not given Liuzzi a particularly good name either, yet he was faster than Vettel at the dry races last year.

But as far as Bourdais goes, while he is basically a good driver, he's not adapting to the new car well, and he was told before the season that for someone so experienced he'd be expected to be on the pace pretty quickly. Instead he's gone backwards. I think he'll last the season but it sounds like Sato's got his seat for next year, partnered by either Senna or Buemi.

[Nikki Katz]

I agree that Tost is awful and I don't understand why he wasn't at least questioned by the police over the Speed incident. He's not given Liuzzi a particularly good name either, yet he was faster than Vettel at the dry races last year.

But as far as Bourdais goes, while he is basically a good driver, he's not adapting to the new car well, and he was told before the season that for someone so experienced he'd be expected to be on the pace pretty quickly. Instead he's gone backwards. I think he'll last the season but it sounds like Sato's got his seat for next year, partnered by either Senna or Buemi.

[gloomyDAY]

I think Bourdais is either going back to America and race in IndyCar, but what is more likely is a sign-up with Peugeot.

[keysersoze]

There's the Berger-Tost way of doing things, then there's the Vijay Mallya-Mike Gascoyne way of doing things. That is, you can deride and blame your drivers, or you can praise and encourage them.

Force India announced that both drivers--who have not only failed to score a point between them but also have failed to get out of Q1--will be retained for next season.

They are realists and have kept the season in perspective. Good on them.

[Roamy]

first of all these cars are hard to drive at limit when you first come up. SV has done a great job but also actually had more exp in them. Berger is a knowitall so you can see what kind of idiot we have here. I am sure SB isn't taking and sh!t off Berger and I would expect him to return to the states. We will take him back - he is polished and quite fast. I believe fast enough for f1 given enough time. He does have a chance to stay however if Berger gets Senna.

[BDunnell]

Bourdais should have been in F1 much earlier. I remember seeing him race very competitively in F3 (2000? 2001? can't quite remember the year, he was with DAMS) before he went to America. It was at that time that I thought he should have went to F1. He went a different route and, one which I think will block the road for a succesful F1 career. It would have been nice to know his ability in F1 7 or 8 years ago though.

I agree with that, but I also think there's a lot of truth in the criticism of Berger. I had a lot of time for him as a driver, but rather less now. He needs to remember that he's the boss of Toro Rosso, not a team whose car and drivers should be expected to be regular contenders. He has two excellent people behind the wheel. Unless he intends to bring someone in who has a huge budget, why not try and build both Bourdais and Vettel up and get some continuity? He won't be able to hire anybody much better.

[cy bais]

With Bourdais' seat arguably under threat, then look, who is rumoured to replace him. :p :
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080811103717.shtml

Anyway, I think this is quite telling, how consistently has Vettel been quicker than Bourdais. I'm even struggling to remember, when was the last weekend, when SB had the upper hand. Spanish GP? IMO it may well show that Der Seb is quite a consistent driver. ;)

Don't get me wrong because I supported SAF1, but please...give it up Taku.

[Ranger]

Force India announced that both drivers--who have not only failed to score a point between them but also have failed to get out of Q1--will be retained for next season.

Why???

Toro Rosso and Force India seem to be going about their idiocy in opposite ways.

STR criticises and derides drivers and gets into physical encounters with them, whilst Force India indulge in nicities, not realising that at least one of their drivers suck (Sutil... who is now going to drive in his THIRD full season).

By comparison, Bourdais, who has barely been embarrassed against a very talented, more experienced team-mate, might not make it to 2009 - possibly having to make room for the past-it Sato (for $). IMO Tost and Berger make the worst team managers (given their resources) that have been on the grid for quite a while.

[52Paddy]

Why???

I see it this way. Force India are arguably the least competitive team on the grid this year. Most likely, their option is to keep the same driver line-up or pick a new 'up and coming' driver. The latter is a gamble. The former gives the team time to develop as opposed to starting from scratch with new drivers. I can understand their decision despite Sutil being quite an under-performer.

[jens]

Considering that currently Force India has the worst car on the grid, they have managed to get quite good drivers for a team in their position. In the past usually a worst team needed at least one pay driver and could only dream about a very experienced and at least moderately successful driver. At best they had just one talented youngster alongside paydriver.

[PolePosition_1]

I like Sebastian, and hope he does well, and to be honest was expecting a bit more from him.

That said he definately deserves a second season. We all know he has racing talent, he's proved that, its just a matter of adapting it over. Given a better car in the second season, I can see him excelling higher up the grid.

Berger was very good with BMW in their Williams days, but so far he hasn't exactly excelled as a team boss.

[wedge]

Don't get me wrong because I supported SAF1, but please...give it up Taku.


By comparison, Bourdais, who has barely been embarrassed against a very talented, more experienced team-mate, might not make it to 2009 - possibly having to make room for the past-it Sato (for $). IMO Tost and Berger make the worst team managers (given their resources) that have been on the grid for quite a while.

He's driven much more consistently and better in his time with Super Aguri, not to mention good pace and excellent overtaking moves and starts.

So what makes Sato 'passed it'?

[Ranger]

He's driven much more consistently and better in his time with Super Aguri, not to mention good pace and excellent overtaking moves and starts.

So what makes Sato 'passed it'?

Not so much 'past it' as 'never had it'.

Beaten by Fisichella in 2002.

Trounced by Button in 2004 and 2005.

Didn't beat Davidson to the line during 2008 when they both finished.

Matter of fact, he's never beaten anyone who had a respectable (25+ GP) career as a GP driver at all.

What gets me is that if it wasn't for his fortuitous nationality he wouldn't have had an F1 career beyond 2005, and yet for the same reason it's a real possibility he's taking a more deserving driver's F1 seat three years later.

Sorry, but Takuma's had too many chances already.

All of the examples you mention were new prospects. Bourdais had a highly successful 5yr career in Champcars and so to some extent had already proved himself as a winner.

For him to take a chance with a team like Toro Rosso in F1 was a big risk for his career at this point in his career. By "stepping down" he's had to prove himself all over again when he didn't need to. In that sense he is very different to the rookies you mention. Added to that you have the inbuilt F1 scepticism of anyone making the move across from US open-wheel racing, and he was up against Red Bull's favourite son Vettel.

In that sense more is expected of Bourdais than a driver out of, for example, F3 or GP2, and I'm not sure whether F1 is willing to give him the opportunity to show how good he could be.

I'm sorry, Arrows, but F1 is not a charity.

A bloke with 4 champcar titles should be given no more chances than a young hot-shot rookie straight out of GP2, WSR or F3.

If anything, he should be cut a lot less slack.

If you don't perform, you are out. No second chances.

[keysersoze]

Why???

Toro Rosso and Force India seem to be going about their idiocy in opposite ways.

STR criticises and derides drivers and gets into physical encounters with them, whilst Force India indulge in nicities, not realising that at least one of their drivers suck (Sutil... who is now going to drive in his THIRD full season).

By comparison, Bourdais, who has barely been embarrassed against a very talented, more experienced team-mate, might not make it to 2009 - possibly having to make room for the past-it Sato (for $). IMO Tost and Berger make the worst team managers (given their resources) that have been on the grid for quite a while.

I believe FI has been critical, but constructively so. They praise the driver for doing a good job throughout the weekend, but then may say, so and so made a slight mistake that cost him a tenth or two--and deliver the message in a manner that allows the driver to keep some of his dignity.

You may remember that Gascoyne challenged Sutil and Fisichella before the season started by saying they had Liuzzi waiting in the wings--but since then, nary a word about him.

Meanwhile, Gerhard openly talks about other drivers perhaps being tested by the team.

Yes, Force India is the weakest team this season--again--but if you look at their performance gap, it has been PROFOUNDLY reduced, from 2 to 3.5 seconds per lap at various circuits last year, to about 1.5-2.0 seconds from P1. They are perhaps the most improved team--right up there with Toyota. Much of this credit goes to Mallya for his great attitude, Gascoyne for his technical abilities, and to Giancarlo for his experience. And the upshot of all this is that this has done great things for Sutil, who I feel is much improved. For the first 3-4 races, he was blown away by GF; now, they are about even.

I agree about Bourdais--he is getting unjustifiably slagged by Berger, who is far too impressed with himself.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm sorry, Arrows, but F1 is not a charity.

If you don't perform, you are out. No second chances.
Absolutely, but I don't think that Toro Rosso would gain anything by dumping Bourdais.

Absolutely, but I don't think that Toro Rosso would gain anything by dumping Bourdais.

Cash?

But other than that, I tend to agree.

[Hondo]

Maybe it would help Seb B if Berger was to sit him down and show him the highlight videos from all Berger's championship winning seasons while tossing in a few tips along the way. Gonna be a short video.

[Valve Bounce]

Sadly this kind of talk is inevitable. Bourdais was never really going to have the opportunity to grab the attentions of a better team while learning the F1 ropes in a Toro Rosso.

.

Absolutely!! he should have opted for Super Aguri.

[Knock-on]

I probably agree with Tamburello on this.

SB has a wealth of experience and was up against a pretty inexperienced team mate by comparison.

I suppose you can compare it to the Alonso, Hammy, McLaren situation.

Experienced Champion coming in Vs rookie team protege.

If the Champ don't cut it, he's soon going to be questioned.

[ShiftingGears]

I probably agree with Tamburello on this.

SB has a wealth of experience and was up against a pretty inexperienced team mate by comparison.

I suppose you can compare it to the Alonso, Hammy, McLaren situation.

Experienced Champion coming in Vs rookie team protege.

If the Champ don't cut it, he's soon going to be questioned.

Theres really no comparison between CCWS and F1.
What you are saying is similar to saying that a multiple Gp2 champion has more experience at knowing how to succeed in F1 than someone who is not. If that experience is not in an F1 environment, it mightn't at all count for much.

[Knock-on]

Theres really no comparison between CCWS and F1.
What you are saying is similar to saying that a multiple Gp2 champion has more experience at knowing how to succeed in F1 than someone who is not. If that experience is not in an F1 environment, it mightn't at all count for much.

I'm not comparing CCWS and F1. I'm saying that someone with (supposed) top flight experience and a multiple champion is expected to be the Mutts Nuts.

Anyway, how many multiple GP2 champs are there :p

[ShiftingGears]

I'm not comparing CCWS and F1. I'm saying that someone with (supposed) top flight experience and a multiple champion is expected to be the Mutts Nuts.

Anyway, how many multiple GP2 champs are there :p

That is true. But CCWS drivers dont often have the predicament of having to adapt to parts giving different handling characteristics. They basically have to refine what they've got. Seb hasn't really been tested in that way.

Anyway, if Seb has the talent, he'll adapt to the new car.

[Knock-on]

That is true. But CCWS drivers dont often have the predicament of having to adapt to parts giving different handling characteristics. They basically have to refine what they've got. Seb hasn't really been tested in that way.

Anyway, if Seb has the talent, he'll adapt to the new car.


Yep, that's the truth.

I just get the feeling that some of our American cousins think that the American series are comparable to F1 when I believe they are a step up.

Otherwise, people winning GP2 would be queing up to go to the US instead of F1.

[keysersoze]

I just get the feeling that some of our American cousins think that the American series are comparable to F1 when I believe they are a step up.


I don't think you MEANT to say this, but syntactically, you stated that Americans think that American series (I'm supposing you mean Indycars and the late CCWS) is NEARLY THE SAME (comparable) to F1, but you think the "American series" is a step up from F1.

I think you essentially meant that Americans think Indycars is on par with F1, but YOU think F1 is a "step up."

But more to the point--I can assure you, there isn't a single half-way informed American open-wheel racing fan with any semblance of objectivity who thinks that Indycars is anywhere near as complex as F1. If anyone thinks so, they are not informed, but ignorant. And these people don't spend time on message boards, so I don't know WHERE you met these alleged American open-wheel fans.

[cy bais]

Not to become off-topic. As already mentioned, F1 is not a charity case but Honda seems to treat Sato like a major charity case, sacked from BAR/Honda then started SAF1 to give him a drive (well aware of the outrage in Japan over Honda's firing of Sato from BAR). He did show maturity while at SAF1 and impressed many. Then SAF1 was shutdown and there were rumors/efforts of getting Sato into Renault shoud Piquet Jr didn't improve. I like SAF1 and Sato but c'mon seriously....

Back on topic - I'd like to see Le Seb back in 2009 and is showing signs of improvements.

[Knock-on]

I don't think you MEANT to say this, but syntactically, you stated that Americans think that American series (I'm supposing you mean Indycars and the late CCWS) is NEARLY THE SAME (comparable) to F1, but you think the "American series" is a step up from F1.

I think you essentially meant that Americans think Indycars is on par with F1, but YOU think F1 is a "step up."

But more to the point--I can assure you, there isn't a single half-way informed American open-wheel racing fan with any semblance of objectivity who thinks that Indycars is anywhere near as complex as F1. If anyone thinks so, they are not informed, but ignorant. And these people don't spend time on message boards, so I don't know WHERE you met these alleged American open-wheel fans.

OK, replace "up" with "down" and it makes sense :D

There is certainly a belief that the top American racers can come into F1 and achieve similar results which is not bourne out by facts.

Seb was supposed to come over here and give us a can of Whip Ass (sorry Max) but as results have shown, this is hardly the case.

Scott Speed (and if anyone had a misappropiated moniker...) being another case in point.

I'm not saying that an American driver can't succeed in F1 but CCWS and Indy is not at the level F1 is otherwise the top drivers from GP2 would be heading across the pond.

What was Seb earning in sponsorship and wages in America and what is he earning now?

[52Paddy]

OK, replace "up" with "down" and it makes sense :D

There is certainly a belief that the top American racers can come into F1 and achieve similar results which is not bourne out by facts.

Seb was supposed to come over here and give us a can of Whip Ass (sorry Max) but as results have shown, this is hardly the case.


I'm not saying that an American driver can't succeed in F1 but CCWS and Indy is not at the level F1 is otherwise the top drivers from GP2 would be heading across the pond.


So its all to do with previous expectations really. Had Bourdais had a different grounding and background, this probably wouldn't be an issue.

I get what you're saying. I don't think its fair to assume that a multiple Indycar/CCWS champion should just appear in F1 and do the business. And, only a select few have done so, Jacques Villeneave (1996/97) being one of the more recent. Then again, he did get arguably the best car out there at the time, far from what the Toro Rosso is.

Scott Speed (and if anyone had a misappropiated moniker...) being another case in point.

I'm not saying that an American driver can't succeed in F1 but CCWS and Indy is not at the level F1 is otherwise the top drivers from GP2 would be heading across the pond.

I don't think you could classify Scott Speed as being a product of Amercian open-wheel racing. The guy never drove in IndyCar, Champcar, Atlantics, IndyPro and only did 4 races in the Star series.

He was pretty much picked by Red Bull and brought over to the European Formula Renault series without a great deal of American racing in his CV, except for Karts and a season of Formula Dodge, which is pretty much Formula Palmer Audi level.

[Roamy]

Scott Speed was as good or better than SB - F1 is not real interested in americans and visa versa. With all that we really don't have a quality driver right now to send anywhere. This probably stems from a lousy karting program and more interest in dirt driving and NASCAR. I don't know the tech layout of GP2 but I think IndyCar still uses sequential gear boxes and clutches. So naturally it will take a bunch of miles to get up to speed in F1 - really for any driver. You even fall behind in F1 when you change teams. The cars are fast and very technical to drive.

[Mark]

I was going to say that F1 teams will likely not bother looking at ChampCar in the future for drivers, but of course there is no ChampCar any more! And arguably the new IndyCar series is even less relevant to F1 (which personally I think is a good thing, they aren't the same and shouldn't be the same)

[Knock-on]

Scott Speed was as good or better than SB - F1 is not real interested in americans and visa versa.

I don't know which was the best out of SS and SB as I don't really rate either of them much.


With all that we really don't have a quality driver right now to send anywhere. This probably stems from a lousy karting program and more interest in dirt driving and NASCAR.

Spot on Uncs.

[Knock-on]

http://f1.uk.reuters.com/f1/news/India-352494-1.php

Looking worse and worse for Seb.


"In Formula One you have to give someone half a year of time before you start to judge him," team co-owner Gerhard Berger told the official Formula One website (http://www.formula1.com).

"The half year is over and he (Bourdais) is now in a situation where he has to prove his talents.

"I would not say I already have a clear opinion on him but I also have to say Sebastian Vettel started a couple of races before and he performed very well in the first half year," added the Austrian.

Asked whether Bourdais was a fixture at Toro Rosso next season, Berger added: "No, it's open".

[markabilly]

My money says SB is gone, and very likely replaced by Sato, because Sato is by far the better driver.

Why??

well, it says so right here in the articlehttp://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/head ... 3717.shtml (articlehttp://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080811103717.shtml): "Motorsport Aktuell reports that Sato is a potential candidate not only for his experience and fighting qualities, but to assist in the development of energy drink partner Red Bull's penetration of the tough Japanese market."

The latter is the key to determining who is the better driver, and clearly SB can not deliver any penetration........
no question that sato is the better driver

[78GPfan]

Sebastien's first couple ChampCar races where less than smooth...unfamiliar tracks, unfamiliar pitstops unlike LeMans racetracks but racecar designers were also good at matching his driver style.

Clearly, Berger needs new designers that can optimize driver style of both Sebastiens...at basic level, at least.

Curious how ChampCar enabled multiple exciting drivers while no-chance FIA teams are not capable...2008 IndyCar is open-wheel-NASCAR, only worse: Elio's win taken by "without warning" penalty and 2-3 accidental no-chance pass attempts per race.

[ShiftingGears]

Curious how ChampCar enabled multiple exciting drivers while no-chance FIA teams are not capable

Because teams design their own cars in F1.

[ArrowsFA1]

My money says SB is gone, and very likely replaced by Sato...


Takuma Sato is to return to the Formula One cockpit with Scuderia Toro Rosso later this month as part of an evaluation test for a 2009 drive with the team.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70234

[Lemmy-Boy]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70234

SeBass is most likely gone. His lackluster results has not won him any real public support from his team. Since Toro Rosso is well known for publicly bashing and dumping drivers (Speed and Liuzzi), SeeBass will probably end up racing in LMS or the IRL next year.

[52Paddy]

The Japanese is a leading contender for a 2009 race seat with Toro Rosso because of the marketing opportunities his arrival would offer Red Bull in his home nation.

:rolleyes:

I suppose Sato wouldn't stand a chance if he wasn't Japanese.

[ioan]

:rolleyes:

I suppose Sato wouldn't stand a chance if he wasn't Japanese.

Why not?
He's fast and he's got loads of F1 experience.

[ShiftingGears]

Why not?
He's fast and he's got loads of F1 experience.

Destroyed by Jenson Button fast.

[CNR]

I guess the only other team that he could be placed with would be force india if they keep the Ferrari engin next year.

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=93443

Red Bull To Have Last Word On Toro Rosso F1 Driver Line-Up



Berger admits that, in order for Bourdais to stay in formula one, he must impress not only him but also those at Red Bull.
"At the end of the day the last word will come from Red Bull, because that is where we get all our resources from," the Austrian says.

[Refutation]

Destroyed by Jenson Button fast.

Yeah, but then he beat Jenson a few tims driving a Super Aguri, I doubt many others would be able to do the same as Sato did with that car.

[52Paddy]

Why not?
He's fast and he's got loads of F1 experience.

Yes but I believe the emphasis is on the fact that he is Japanese and how he would influence the Japanese Red Bull market. I'm not entirely convinced that he would be in major contention for the seat had he been another German or Brazilian etc coming up through the ranks.

I would rather see Buemi get a shot personally.

EDIT: I've nothing against Sato, by the way. I love the guy and his driving style. Its more Toro Rosso's attitude I'm annoyed with and how mentality like this can block the road for many drivers in the sport. I would like to see Sato back on track again, don't get me wrong.

[ShiftingGears]

Yeah, but then he beat Jenson a few tims driving a Super Aguri, I doubt many others would be able to do the same as Sato did with that car.

I believe they would.

Honda RA206 > RA207.

The Super Aguri team had the better car.

[ioan]

I believe they would.

Honda RA206 > RA207.

The Super Aguri team had the better car.

Or Super Aguri did a better job with a worse car!
If the RA206 was better than the RA207 why didn't Honda use it too?! It would have been logical after all.

[jens]

Sato seems to cause some debate here. I personally have to say that I wouldn't mind seeing him in F1 again. He seems quite a likeable character. He seems to be always smiling no matter what has happened and no-one has ever accused him of being arrogant. He seems to be a "pure racer", who doesn't have too complicated thoughts before the race or in battles - just one clear thought - banzai! :D Not in a negative way, but more like a positive way. He isn't a guy, who likes to complain. The same about overtaking. Everyone says that it is so hard to pass, but Sato doesn't care - he just goes and passes! I remember last year's Belgian Grand Prix. Team radio: "You're behind Button. Pass him cleanly!" :D And moments later he executed a brilliant move round the outside. No hesitation, just a pure racer attitude - go for it. Sato among drivers in some way seems like Minardi among teams. No-one ever expected them to become a top challenger or win a title, but if they did well, it created happiness. Same with Sato, he's an "underdog driver" if it can be said so - yes, he will never win a WDC, but that's not the point - the point is that he is capable of creating surprises at times. This is what attracts people. I think last year's Canadian Grand Prix was a great moment for the sport. An underdog driver in an underdog team passed a top driver in a top car.

All in all that's why I like him and would welcome him back. In some way he seems different to others.

[truefan72]

first things first,

As someone who always liked GB as a driver ( a slightly better DC in my books), it s a real shame to see what has become of him as a team boss in F1. First off Scott Speed should still be driving in F1, So should Liuzzi,

Bourdais, is a gifted driver who is struggling to adapt to the lousy STR car and due to budget, often doesn't even get the same equipment as Vettel.
Never mind that they pretty much built the 2008 around Vettel's preferences. Or the fact that this is his first year in F1 and finding the limits to these cars on each track, are often a learning process (unless you are in a top 1-2 cars where the sheer speed and superiority allows for immediate competitiveness)

This was my great concern when he decided to accept the STR deal. I thought that he should have made a stronger play for Renault, or Toyota, or perhaps even come in as a 3rd driver with a top team to learn the car and increase his marketability for the 2009 season. He would have been well positioned to pluck a seat from Renault, BMW, Toyota, and might have gotten calls from others.

It is a huge gamble to enter into a mediocre team, no matter the claims they make about improving in 2008. In fact STR have taken a step back imo.

I like the steady way in which Force India are going about their business. They seem to have a long term plan (at least a 5 year plan) to develop into a competitive and fiscally sustainable F1 team. I think that within 2-3 years, Force India will be right there with the midpack.

Finally, I do like Sato and would enjoy seeing him back in f1. I always though he was a decent driver and his time at Super Aguri made a bunch off people take notice.

Let's see what happens with STR over the winter, and if there will be another team entering F1.

I do agree that the STR management is by far the worst in F1.

[ioan]

First off Scott Speed should still be driving in F1, So should Liuzzi,

And a bunch of other drivers! :roleyes:



Bourdais, is a gifted driver who is struggling to adapt to the lousy STR car and due to budget, often doesn't even get the same equipment as Vettel.

Link please!



It is a huge gamble to enter into a mediocre team, no matter the claims they make about improving in 2008. In fact STR have taken a step back imo.

Results say otherwise



I like the steady way in which Force India are going about their business. They seem to have a long term plan (at least a 5 year plan) to develop into a competitive and fiscally sustainable F1 team. I think that within 2-3 years, Force India will be right there with the midpack.

Than maybe bourdais to Force India would make you happier, in this way he will be in a lousier car with even less money. :laugh:



I do agree that the STR management is by far the worst in F1.

I don't think so, and they seem to go into the right direction.

[ShiftingGears]

Or Super Aguri did a better job with a worse car!
If the RA206 was better than the RA207 why didn't Honda use it too?! It would have been logical after all.

I don't know the conditions of what Honda could/could not use in 2007. But that doesnt change the fact that Button annihilated Sato when they were teammates. I don't see how Sato could somehow equal Button in a lesser car. And I don't see why Sato should replace a driver who has beaten Vettel on occasions this season. If he is to be in F1 he should be Bourdais' teammate, not replacement.

[Knock-on]

first things first,

As someone who always liked GB as a driver ( a slightly better DC in my books), it s a real shame to see what has become of him as a team boss in F1. First off Scott Speed should still be driving in F1, So should Liuzzi,

Bourdais, is a gifted driver who is struggling to adapt to the lousy STR car and due to budget, often doesn't even get the same equipment as Vettel.
Never mind that they pretty much built the 2008 around Vettel's preferences. Or the fact that this is his first year in F1 and finding the limits to these cars on each track, are often a learning process (unless you are in a top 1-2 cars where the sheer speed and superiority allows for immediate competitiveness)

This was my great concern when he decided to accept the STR deal. I thought that he should have made a stronger play for Renault, or Toyota, or perhaps even come in as a 3rd driver with a top team to learn the car and increase his marketability for the 2009 season. He would have been well positioned to pluck a seat from Renault, BMW, Toyota, and might have gotten calls from others.

It is a huge gamble to enter into a mediocre team, no matter the claims they make about improving in 2008. In fact STR have taken a step back imo.

I like the steady way in which Force India are going about their business. They seem to have a long term plan (at least a 5 year plan) to develop into a competitive and fiscally sustainable F1 team. I think that within 2-3 years, Force India will be right there with the midpack.

Finally, I do like Sato and would enjoy seeing him back in f1. I always though he was a decent driver and his time at Super Aguri made a bunch off people take notice.

Let's see what happens with STR over the winter, and if there will be another team entering F1.

I do agree that the STR management is by far the worst in F1.


TrueFan

It is often the case that if a driver isn't performing in a team, people start claiming it's because the other driver is favoured or he has inferior equipment.

However, some times, the driver cannot get the best out of the car as SB himself admits.

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2008/9/8308.html

[Knock-on]

OK, which quote is Vettel and which is SB?


"It was an interesting day and as expected, the weather made for some pretty strange conditions," he said. "Especially in the afternoon, it was important that we got some dry laps, to get another look at how the car was performing, having made some changes to it, as I was not completely happy with it in the morning.

"The afternoon showed it was much better. I thought it was cool to drive in these conditions as you have no margin for error: 10 centimetres the wrong way and you can crash.

"You have to be very precise and it demands very accurate driving. When you push, you start to feel your balls in your pants! It was interesting and I like it."


"This is the most beautiful track, but the conditions are often a pain in the arse and with the dry tyres in the drizzle we had this afternoon, if you touched the white line you would crash," he explained. "So I didn't take any risks, especially as you don't learn much in these conditions.

"The morning session was quite good and now we just have to find a solution to the fact I am locking the rears. Apart from that, we have found a reasonable balance and I feel happy with that as I think we were quite competitive this morning and in general, we look in good shape."

1 driver is having a riot out there and the other seems a bit nervous.

Not too hard to figure out who's who ;)

[ioan]

The first one is Vettel and the 2nd one is Bourdais?

[markabilly]

The first one is Vettel and the 2nd one is Bourdais?
Who has better penetration ability......????

f

Bourdais, is a gifted driver who is struggling to adapt to the lousy STR car and due to budget, often doesn't even get the same equipment as Vettel.
Never mind that they pretty much built the 2008 around Vettel's preferences. Or the fact that this is his first year in F1 and finding the limits to these cars on each track, are often a learning process

Eh?

Point 1 - The STR wasn't built around Vettel's preferences. The STR is a Red Bull, designed by Adrian Newey and therefore, if anything, designed around the preferences of two drivers who don't even drive for Toro Rosso.

Point 2 - If Bourdais wants to use as an excuse the idea that STR have focused on Vettel, then he should have been more forceful. Sitting back and letting that happen is not the mark of a top-line F1 driver, no matter what the circumstances.

I couldn't imagine Fernando or Lewis sitting back and just allowing that to happen. Actually, neither of them did just allow that to happen. They both fought like hell to get the best for themselves.

Point 3 - Vettel is only just returning to tracks he has raced on in F1 before now. He hadn't race at Valencia before because nobody in F1 had, yet there, on a level playing field, he outqualified Bourdais by 4 places and finished in the points, 4 places above a non-scoring team-mate.

The claim that Bourdais is somehow disadvantaged by not knowing tracks is ridiculous and unsubstantiated.

Point 4 - First rule of F1 is "If you don't perform, you're out".

[Knock-on]

Eh?

Point 1 - The STR wasn't built around Vettel's preferences. The STR is a Red Bull, designed by Adrian Newey and therefore, if anything, designed around the preferences of two drivers who don't even drive for Toro Rosso.

Point 2 - If Bourdais wants to use as an excuse the idea that STR have focused on Vettel, then he should have been more forceful. Sitting back and letting that happen is not the mark of a top-line F1 driver, no matter what the circumstances.

I couldn't imagine Fernando or Lewis sitting back and just allowing that to happen. Actually, neither of them did just allow that to happen. They both fought like hell to get the best for themselves.

Point 3 - Vettel is only just returning to tracks he has raced on in F1 before now. He hadn't race at Valencia before because nobody in F1 had, yet there, on a level playing field, he outqualified Bourdais by 4 places and finished in the points, 4 places above a non-scoring team-mate.

The claim that Bourdais is somehow disadvantaged by not knowing tracks is ridiculous and unsubstantiated.

Point 4 - First rule of F1 is "If you don't perform, you're out".


Agree totally with all but point 2.

Unless I've missed something SB hasn't used that excuse but said that he is struggleing to adapt where SV has managed to overcome the cars character better.

[rickos]

The cream rises to the top at the best track. A little bit of Indy car experience and a twist of a French heritage does it every time.

[gloomyDAY]

He's kicking ass at Spa right now in qualifying. Q3 coming up!

[truefan72]

TrueFan

It is often the case that if a driver isn't performing in a team, people start claiming it's because the other driver is favoured or he has inferior equipment.

However, some times, the driver cannot get the best out of the car as SB himself admits.

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2008/9/8308.html

OK, perhaps I went a little overboard in my assessment, but I do know that in France, Vettel, had the improved package, while Bourdais wasn't. But that might have been an isolated case of covering both sides of the equation.

I still believe that Bourdais is a quality driver who deserves the chance to flesh out his F1 career without the nuisance of Berger micro-assessing his perofrmance sin his fiorst year in F1 and on many circuits.

Today's performance should make the team take notice. With an improved car, both drivers can perform up to their abilities. As an aside...unless they change the engine freeze rules, the move to RBR might be a step doen to vettel...irony.

[truefan72]

Eh?

Point 1 - The STR wasn't built around Vettel's preferences. The STR is a Red Bull, designed by Adrian Newey and therefore, if anything, designed around the preferences of two drivers who don't even drive for Toro Rosso.

Point 2 - If Bourdais wants to use as an excuse the idea that STR have focused on Vettel, then he should have been more forceful. Sitting back and letting that happen is not the mark of a top-line F1 driver, no matter what the circumstances.

I couldn't imagine Fernando or Lewis sitting back and just allowing that to happen. Actually, neither of them did just allow that to happen. They both fought like hell to get the best for themselves.

Point 3 - Vettel is only just returning to tracks he has raced on in F1 before now. He hadn't race at Valencia before because nobody in F1 had, yet there, on a level playing field, he outqualified Bourdais by 4 places and finished in the points, 4 places above a non-scoring team-mate.

The claim that Bourdais is somehow disadvantaged by not knowing tracks is ridiculous and unsubstantiated.

Point 4 - First rule of F1 is "If you don't perform, you're out".

I will point out that Vettel has been a 3rd driver for a while and has indeed seen many of these tracks. He may not have gone the race distance but in 2006 he was the BMW 3rd driver and made a bunch of outings o Friday's. Even in 2007 when they pretty much did a way with Friday 3rd drivers mixing it uop with the regulars, he was still given the opportunity to drive on Friday in Australia and Malaysia. So he's had about 2 years of good looks on all the tracks with the exception of Valencia.

[MDS]

I think Bourdais is probably secure for 2009. How far beyond that I don't know.

[truefan72]

great race for bourdais today, too bad about the last lap. But i think he has just solidified his seat for next year.

[Knock-on]

OK, perhaps I went a little overboard in my assessment, but I do know that in France, Vettel, had the improved package, while Bourdais wasn't. But that might have been an isolated case of covering both sides of the equation.

I still believe that Bourdais is a quality driver who deserves the chance to flesh out his F1 career without the nuisance of Berger micro-assessing his perofrmance sin his fiorst year in F1 and on many circuits.

Today's performance should make the team take notice. With an improved car, both drivers can perform up to their abilities. As an aside...unless they change the engine freeze rules, the move to RBR might be a step doen to vettel...irony.


:up:

Had a great race today and was a match for his team mate.

Probably need to see how Monza goes before signing any contracts though.

[jens]

Spa weekend has probably increased Le Seb's chances to stay at STR. He had a great race except the start (amazing he didn't need a front wing change after hitting Trulli) and the last lap. But P7 is still quite good. :)

[markabilly]

Spa weekend has probably increased Le Seb's chances to stay at STR. He had a great race except the start (amazing he didn't need a front wing change after hitting Trulli) and the last lap. But P7 is still quite good. :)
if not for the rain mess, he would have been an easy 4th,so exclellent result--and if they had pitted him, he might have finished second.....given how fast the drivers were on intermediates compared to those NOT.

If he stays at there, he might be better off given what Webber said about the ferrari engine compared to renault....and the flow down from Adrain newey....

[FIA]

I think he does, but he has competition from Bruno Senna, Sebastian (another) Beumi, Takuma Sato and possibly Anthony Davidson for the seat. Also any driver that loses their seat, so I think his seat is in jeopardy which is a shame.

[Bradley]

The improvement of the Toro Rosso is a question of developping and tuning a car that has not changed much since Monaco.

This is probably more the merit of Bourdais than of the younger Vettel.

[52Paddy]

Bourdais, for me, has proved that when pushed to perform, he can perform. He was under a lot of pressure going into Spa from his team. He had to impress. Rather than crack under pressure, he raced on top form, a smashing job, all when the going was really tough! I hope he can retain his seat and we see him get more deserved results in the final few races.

Well done Seb :up:

[ioan]

If he needs to be continuously pampered in order to perform than he should go back to the USA cause STR and F1 teams generally don't have time for such drivers.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70461


"Obviously I would like to stay, but it all depends on what the expectations are," said Bourdais, who came close to a podium finish in Belgium. "If their (Toro Rosso's) expectations are for me to adapt to a car I don't like, then I don't think it's a good idea to keep me.

[jens]

Adaptability is an important quality of an F1 driver and this quote doesn't seem to show Le Seb in great light in this area actually.

For example in the early phase of the season Glock was struggling with the car, but decided to try to master Trulli's driving style to take the maximum out of TF108. And by now he has turned into a more competitive driver. If the whole team can move in the same direction, it's more beneficial.

Unfortunately for Bourdais - STR is after all a B-team and I doubt for the whole Red Bull F1 operation helping Le Seb with car issues is one of the main priorities as they are concentrated on the Red Bull-Renault team, to who the chassises are built. STR is forced to deal with what they get.

[truefan72]

If he needs to be continuously pampered in order to perform than he should go back to the USA cause STR and F1 teams generally don't have time for such drivers.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70461


funny how you lambasted me for making this same point about heidfeld in another thread... trully funny. I suppose you now agree with me about Heidfeld right?

[ioan]

funny how you lambasted me for making this same point about heidfeld in another thread... trully funny. I suppose you now agree with me about Heidfeld right?

Where did Heidfeld say that he needs to be pampered by BMW otherwise there is no reason to stay together?

If there were such comments, and I said he is right, than I was wrong, but I don't know if it really happened.