Is Sebastien Bourdais that bad? [Archive]

ykiki

8th August 2008, 03:25

I am getting frustrated with watching Sebastien Bourdais do so poorly in F1.

He cant be that bad....can he?

No.

He was doing relatively well at the start of the season, but hasn't looked as good since they changed cars. Then again, he made it to the 2nd round of qualifying last week in Hungary, but had to start near the back due to a penalty.

All in all, I don't think he's doing too badly considering he's driving for a team that not too long ago was MinardiF1.

ZzZzZz

8th August 2008, 03:45

There's a mentality in F1 that drivers are pretty much interchangable. The drivers should adapt to the team's set-up, not provide feedback. If the can't adapt, just get another one. They play disrespectful mindgames with the drivers. Some seem to give in if the driver fights enough, such as with Jacques Villeneueve at Williams, where his input, once they listened, helped the team. Others, as with JV at BAR (or, apparently, Michael Andretti at McLaren) have various other nefarious reasons for disregarding a driver, or even sabotaging him. There's also a degree of scapegoating with underperforming teams.

Obviously, some of the better teams value driver input, and some of the top drivers have amazing technical knowledge.

Bourdais' case is odd. In his first race he passed up through the field to a 7th place finished that signaled more to come. He's had a few pretty good drives that ended with mechanical DNFs, but it does look a bit fishy.

Miatanut

8th August 2008, 04:18

F1 is in another world from top level American open wheel racing as far as demands on the drivers. Part of it is in America, people still try to have fun with racing. In Europe, it's more business-like. Drivers who spent a significant part of their open wheel careers here get into that and they get their minds messed with and it's all downhill from there.

gloomyDAY

8th August 2008, 07:19

No! Bourdais is an excellent driver without a hope in hell at Toro Rosso. The new STR chassis has not been compliant with Bourdais' style of driving, which I believe is due to Berger's favoritism for Vettel. From the instant Le Seb went off at Monaco I knew that it was all downhill from there and I've not been proven wrong.

As Vettel excels and gets into Q2 on a regular basis and the occasional Q3 you can see Bourdais struggle a lot more. The frustration is only going to compound and Le Seb will probably wash out by the end of the year.

I'd really like to see Bourdais in an IndyCar (possibly AGR). Why not?

domaza

8th August 2008, 08:18

MAX_THRUST

8th August 2008, 15:20

He was in the best team in CCWS but I don't think he is bad. But pollitics in F1 surely mean if they need him gone then he will look awful. It'll be made sure of, scap goat was a word above and I agree. Just remember Zanardi at Williams. The car was the dyer and I'm not just talking the livery either.

Osiris333

8th August 2008, 15:35

Bourdais is good, but he has to adapt to the new car quickly or he'll be out of a job.

Truthfully, he was never as good as looked in Champ Car. NH had a special suspension package that gave him a huge advantage. That said, Tracy, Power or Wilson are probably the only other guys on the grid who could have done as much with the car he had.

Don't expect him in an IRL car until they change the formula. He thinks the Dallara is a CW, and way too dangerous. He saw what it did to Bruno Junqueria's back at Indy a few years ago, and Bruno has never been the same.

See 'ya in ought eleven, Seabass...

The instant classic

8th August 2008, 16:24

i sometimes watch F1 cuz it comes on like 7am
and i never see Bourdais anywhere? i wish he could come to IRL he was one of my faves in champcar for many years

bblocker68

8th August 2008, 16:48

Aint gonna happen. Seabass spent all of those years in Champcar so he could get back to F1. He wont come back until things change in a big way in IndyCar.

Vettel is getting the better of Bourdais right now because the new upgrades that were put in place give the advantage to Vettel's driving style. He is rough and bully's a car to get where he wants it to, where Bourdais is very smooth and fluid. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Frankly, I'd rather see Bourdais go to Renault (home team) than to come back here. He earned the right to drive in F1, so I say let him stay and try to make a name for himself there.

But I do miss seeing him on the track around here in the US.

gloomyDAY

8th August 2008, 17:09

In an interview this week Seb told that he is the onlyone out of 4 guys, who is saying that smt. has to be changed with car - so it is 1 again 3, what means no changes. Sad, but true.I think this (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/167340-0/bourdais_admits_to_continuing_f1_troubles.html) is the story.

Le Seb is not my favorite at Toro Rosso. Look at my sig! I prefer Vettel over Bourdais simply because the young German had more experience in a F1 car. Now Berger personally mentors this kid and is trying to raise a superstar. If anyone was in denial about my previous post, then watch this video (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/167374-0/berger__vettel_has_no_real_weakness.html).

bblocker68

8th August 2008, 17:26

I think this (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/167340-0/bourdais_admits_to_continuing_f1_troubles.html) is the story.

Le Seb is not my favorite at Toro Rosso. Look at my sig! I prefer Vettel over Bourdais simply because the young German had more experience in a F1 car. Now Berger personally mentors this kid and is trying to raise a superstar. If anyone was in denial about my previous post, then watch this video (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/167374-0/berger__vettel_has_no_real_weakness.html).

So why is Berger giving him up to the primary team? Is Gerhard moving up too?

gloomyDAY

8th August 2008, 18:02

So why is Berger giving him up to the primary team? Is Gerhard moving up too?$$$$$$

That would probably be his primary motivator. Also, I'm sure Red Bull dropped a little threat in the contract just in case Berger had any hiccups (i.e. no Vettel = no STR3).

JSH

8th August 2008, 19:29

At NHL in Champcar, Seb B was the big dog. The car was tuned to his needs.

At STR, he's "officially" the "Equal Dog". But IMO any F1 team will favour the younger guy over the older one.

As well as that, I am suspicious of any team management that burns through (or will burn through) 2 sets of drivers in as many years. Especially when they hold the drivers (except Saint Vettel) solely responsible for the "teams" performance. Alot of the post race comments from STR suggest they assume they are immune from problems, but the drivers have all the problems.

ShiftingGears

9th August 2008, 05:06

jimispeed

9th August 2008, 07:03

ShiftingGears

9th August 2008, 08:35

:rolleyes:

Can't handle it?

wedge

9th August 2008, 11:38

He was better, relative to Vettel, at the start of the year. Maybe he'll give him another run for his money, maybe not. He's certainly not bad, but it certainly gives you a scope on the depth of talent of AOWR road course drivers vs the depth of talent in F1.

You said AOWR.

Seabass only raced in CCWS and not IRL.

IRL arguably had better depth in talent. F1 writer and commentator Peter Windsor has said Scott Dixon, TK, Franchitti and Castroneves would be good F1 drivers.

Dr. Krogshöj

9th August 2008, 13:06

No! Bourdais is an excellent driver without a hope in hell at Toro Rosso. The new STR chassis has not been compliant with Bourdais' style of driving, which I believe is due to Berger's favoritism for Vettel.

I think it is rather due the fact that STR are not developing their own chassis, they use the one designed by Red Bull Technology (aka RB4). The team as a whole doesn't have a big say in the development directions, I suppose and Séb is trapped in that situation.

indycool

9th August 2008, 16:12

He raced in IRL at Indy once.............

DBell

9th August 2008, 16:50

If Red Bull pulls it support, that team may not exist next year. Dietrich Mateschitz owns 50% of STR and next year Red Bull and STR won't be able to share Adrian Newey's design. He's said his share of STR is for sell. If no buyer is found, he'll probably pull his support from STR. I can't see Berger continuing on out of his own pocket.

I think Seabass is a very talented driver, but got his chance at F1 with a poor team. Plus he got his chance a little late in his driving career. I know he's not that old, but considering the youth movement in F1 over the last decade, the track record for guys starting at his age isn't great. He may have an interest in coming back to race in the US, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him sign with Puegot if his F1 career ends.

Osiris333

9th August 2008, 17:14

"IRL arguably had better depth in talent."

Sorry dude, you lost me there. Kannan had 6 years in CART, and never did a thing worth noting except hold up Paul Tracy on a regular basis. Franchitti was good when he was younger, as were Helio and Dixon. But there was no evidence they were going to be anything more than upper middle packers if their teams hadn't defected to the IRL.

During Seabass' tenure, CC had Tracy, Will Power, Wilson, Almedinger, Timo Glock, Doornbos, Junky, Dominguez, Phillipe (who really improved) Hunter-Reay... Well I could go on. But I'd take the top 5 in CC over the the top 5 in the IRL at any point along the way. Seabass was good. Very good and against good competition

Dario is gone, Helio is fading and I still think TK is a never was. Dixon is the only guy I think could have made some real noise in CC over the last few years.

I'm just glad it's all over now, and hopefully with a new more challenging package we can start viewing Indycar as a world class series again in the near future.

garyshell

9th August 2008, 17:16

He was better, relative to Vettel, at the start of the year. Maybe he'll give him another run for his money, maybe not. He's certainly not bad, but it certainly gives you a scope on the depth of talent of AOWR road course drivers vs the depth of talent in F1.

With what sort of logic can you possibly draw that conclusion? In one series he was driving for the top team and had engineers that we eager and willing to set the car up to his liking. In the other he is driving for a perennial back marker and has zero input into the car's setup. With those parameters how can you possibly judge the depth of talent in AWOR?

Gary

garyshell

9th August 2008, 17:18

Can't handle it?

Can't handle what? The lack of logic? I can't. Your premise may be right, there may not have been much depth. But your argument for getting to that premise doesn't hold water.

Gary

MrJan

9th August 2008, 17:23

Bourdais is a decent driver but I think that years driving in America have had an affect. It's obvious that the cars are completely different between F1 and the US series and it seems that many drivers from the US struggle when they get to F1. Likewise drivers that seem to struggle to get into F1 can do very well in the US (see Dan Wheldon).

Having the worst car need not always be the end of a career. Alonso drove for Minardi but ended up being WDC a few years later because his talent was realised. I think that Bourdais also has talent (not on the same level as FA) and will continue in F1 but I would be amazed if he was ever a contender for a Championship, even if he was in one of the best cars.

Jag_Warrior

9th August 2008, 18:19

If F1 doesn't work out, I could see Bourdais going to DTM long before he returns to North America to race in the IRL. In fact, in the last interview I read, he indicated that he was happy to have escaped the mess that AOWR has become. Like Jacques Villeneuve, he doesn't seem to feel that he has any unfinished business in AOWR. If he returned to N.A., I'd say it would be to give NASCAR a try. His IROC experience seemed to give him a desire for NASCAR over anything else here.

If anyone has seen interviews to the contrary, I'd love to read them. But I think he's settled in Europe for good... racing or no racing.

Mad_Hatter

9th August 2008, 20:24

CCWS77

9th August 2008, 21:09

As much as I hate saying it, I think Seabass is a victim of AOWR's spec racing environment. No manu. competition has meant he hasn't had to adapt to having a losing combination. Even in f3 they were spec when he won. Good for relatively lower costs, bad for driver development.

IMO we'd see him in the Peugeots before he's back over here.

He can name exactly what should be changed thanks to his experience seting up cars which was vital in SPEC cars which you are deriding. So a driver has to adapt to a crappy setup and the team will not change it. I'm blown away that fans think this is an acceptable way for teams in the top race series in the world to operate. This is an example of everything that is wrong with F1. Who needs at track competition of the teams? Money politics and thier hired engineers will predetermine everything about the race including the car setup. Why have drivers at all then? It is stupid. Tech has gone to the point where the cars can be run with a computer.

MrJan

9th August 2008, 21:47

It's not about setup in terms of just tweaking the suspension or altering the wing but rooted in the basis of the chassis iteself. If you have one driver saying one thing and then another driver (with pots of money) and the test drivers saying another then you just wouldn't side with the bloke on his own. Especially as putting Bourdais in a sub-par car will probably yield better results than if Vettel wasn't happy with setup.

To think that the team will spend millions just because one bloke 'who should be doing better' doesn't like the car is a joke.

Mad_Hatter

9th August 2008, 22:05

He can name exactly what should be changed thanks to his experience seting up cars which was vital in SPEC cars which you are deriding. So a driver has to adapt to a crappy setup and the team will not change it. I'm blown away that fans think this is an acceptable way for teams in the top race series in the world to operate. This is an example of everything that is wrong with F1. Who needs at track competition of the teams? Money politics and thier hired engineers will predetermine everything about the race including the car setup. Why have drivers at all then? It is stupid. Tech has gone to the point where the cars can be run with a computer.

I didn't say he didn't have a good technical base. I did say he hasn't had to adapt to a car that wasn't fast on a race by race basis.

No manu. competition has meant he hasn't had to adapt to having a losing combination.

That's part of f1. Prove to the team that you have the greatest potential. They'll start to suit to you, maybe. Bourdais is at a real disadvantage like Mr Jan Yeo said, Webber, Coulthard, Vettel, and the other three or four test drivers vs him alone. Fly or fall.

DexDexter

9th August 2008, 23:17

He can name exactly what should be changed thanks to his experience seting up cars which was vital in SPEC cars which you are deriding. So a driver has to adapt to a crappy setup and the team will not change it. I'm blown away that fans think this is an acceptable way for teams in the top race series in the world to operate. This is an example of everything that is wrong with F1. Who needs at track competition of the teams? Money politics and thier hired engineers will predetermine everything about the race including the car setup. Why have drivers at all then? It is stupid. Tech has gone to the point where the cars can be run with a computer.

There is nothing wrong with F1, it's all about technology, teams and drivers like it is always been. Ask Mario Andretti about Lotus 79 and ground-effect. As regards to Seabass, in my view he's done ok, considering he is facing one the best young drivers in the world and the team is a bit weird towards their drivers, at least Franz Tost who seems to blame the drivers for everything.

ShiftingGears

10th August 2008, 01:40

You said AOWR.

Seabass only raced in CCWS and not IRL.

IRL arguably had better depth in talent. F1 writer and commentator Peter Windsor has said Scott Dixon, TK, Franchitti and Castroneves would be good F1 drivers.

Yeah, but Windsor also claimed that Alonso was "not so good in a good car", so I'd be hesitant to take his opinions as gospel. However I think Dixon is one of the most talented guys in the IndyCar grid.

ShiftingGears

10th August 2008, 01:46

With what sort of logic can you possibly draw that conclusion? In one series he was driving for the top team and had engineers that we eager and willing to set the car up to his liking. In the other he is driving for a perennial back marker and has zero input into the car's setup. With those parameters how can you possibly judge the depth of talent in AWOR?

Gary

He was regarded as the best in the CCWS grid. And at the moment he is losing out to his teammate in F1. I'm not judging him by the position of his team, I'm judging him by his position in comparison to his teammate. He is not a bad driver, he has potential, but at the moment he's really got to dig deep to adapt to the F1 environment, and his car.

indycool

10th August 2008, 02:45

ZzZzZz

10th August 2008, 04:04

jso1985

10th August 2008, 04:46

It has happened to others.....Michael Andretti, Cristiano da Matta........and the same has happened here in reverse, going back as far as Juan Fangio and continuing to today with Enrique Bernoldi.......and then there are those who have shown well at both, like Mario Andretti, Juan Montoya, Jacques Villeneuve, Nigel Mansell.

Enrique Bernoldi was never a top driver(wasn't even close to beat his team-mates) so basically he's just another F1 reject like Wilson or Junqueira trying to succeed on an "easier" open-wheel category.

While the "true" Fangio never drove in American Open-Wheel racing, and the Fangio who ran in CART in the mid 90's didn't even drove a mile on a F1 car.

As for Bourdais, the competition he faced on CC was like it or not way much weaker than the one he's facing in F1, plus he had a better car, but!... I don't think he's as bad as it looks right now, as Vettel might be the next big thing in F1.
So IMO, he's a good driver, not championship material but could take some wins on a top car.

garyshell

10th August 2008, 05:14

He's certainly not bad, but it certainly gives you a scope on the depth of talent of AOWR road course drivers vs the depth of talent in F1.

With what sort of logic can you possibly draw that conclusion? In one series he was driving for the top team and had engineers that we eager and willing to set the car up to his liking. In the other he is driving for a perennial back marker and has zero input into the car's setup. With those parameters how can you possibly judge the depth of talent in AWOR?

Gary

He was regarded as the best in the CCWS grid. And at the moment he is losing out to his teammate in F1. I'm not judging him by the position of his team, I'm judging him by his position in comparison to his teammate. He is not a bad driver, he has potential, but at the moment he's really got to dig deep to adapt to the F1 environment, and his car.

I questioned and continue to question how your logic leads you to judge the depth of talent in either AWOR or F1. You still have not answered that question.

Gary

ShiftingGears

10th August 2008, 06:51

I questioned and continue to question how your logic leads you to judge the depth of talent in either AWOR or F1. You still have not answered that question.

Gary

Best driver in CCWS struggling against teammate who also doesn't have a full season's experience in F1.

garyshell

10th August 2008, 15:33

Best driver in CCWS struggling against teammate who also doesn't have a full season's experience in F1.

That still does not prove a thing abouut the difference in depth between AWOR and F1, now does it? All that proves is the difference between two drivers.

Gary

MrJan

10th August 2008, 15:46

Jag_Warrior

10th August 2008, 16:38

Jacques actually kicked butt in his first year too... he was just edged out by his teammate, Damon Hill, for the WDC in his rookie year. Jacques brought many of the things he learned in CART with him to F1. Like Montoya later on, his ability to perform on cold(er) fresh tires amazed the team. He also brought with him certain preferences for wing angles and front end setups that they apparently hadn't thought of. I'm not sure that Bourdais brought any of that to F1 from CCWS, since by the end it was so spec in nature and so far behind F1 in terms of technology and engineering. I don't rate Bourdais as high as some, since I think he and Newman-Haas beat a lot of weak competition. I do like and respect Bourdais though. But he didn't roll over any drivers of the Montoya, Moore or Zanardi caliber. He was very good and made the best of his equipment. I just think he smacked around some weak kittens and that made him look better than he was. It's really too bad that Allmendinger left. Those two seemed to be well matched. Sort of like Bourdais and Vettel.

I agree that Villeneuve went out on a down note, but most of them do. They hang on too long. I think his biggest mistake was sticking with Pollack for as long as he did.

garyshell

10th August 2008, 19:08

I'd argue that Villeneuve never really 'showed well' in F1, despite winning the championship. He did well in a very good car for one year but apart from that he left F1 under a cloud of underacheivement. I would certainly rate Bourdais above JV as an F1 driver, even if we haven't seen it yet :)

JV left F1 under a cloud of driving a car that was a total piece of crap, for a completely disfunctional team that has yet to get the car or its own act together.

You are a tough audience, if winning the championship in your second year after being runner up in his rookie season is not enough for you to say someone "showed well" then pray tell what is???

Gary

CCWS77

10th August 2008, 19:52

he hasn't had to adapt to having a losing combination.

You adapt to a losing combination by correcting what needs to be changed. This notion that you have to learn to drive an inferior car because you will never have a car as good as others is a flaw in the philosophy of F1. You don't learn that in other series because that is stupid and not what racing competition should be about.

To think that the team will spend millions just because one bloke 'who should be doing better' doesn't like the car is a joke.

Blaming that difference on one driver is deflection and spin. Lets face it Vettel will not be winning any time soon either. If you like F1 just because they are the fastest in the world that if fine. That does not mean it does not have flaws and is doing everything the right way.

Mad_Hatter

11th August 2008, 02:54

You adapt to a losing combination by correcting what needs to be changed. This notion that you have to learn to drive an inferior car because you will never have a car as good as others is a flaw in the philosophy of F1. You don't learn that in other series because that is stupid and not what racing competition should be about.
That's not a flaw in f1 it's part of racing competition. All Racing. In SCCA World Challenge the guys with the Porsches have to take out wing because they are not as fast as the Corvettes and Vipers in a straight line. The drivers will have to deal with that understeer. In Champ Car when DaMatta switched to Rusport it took time for him to adapt to their suspension setup, supposedly. Not an f1 thing it's a competition thing. Teams don't have infinite resources. STR does not have millions of extra dollars to change everything about its chassis and aero on one car. Hell, Red Bull Racing gives them their car.

Blaming that difference on one driver is deflection and spin.
The spin is in saying he shouldn't have to learn to drive what he's given.

If you like F1 just because they are the fastest in the world that if fine. That does not mean it does not have flaws and is doing everything the right way.
Are you drinking or something? It's cool if you are, I've typed(but said alot more) stupid stuff drunk too.

nigelred5

11th August 2008, 12:56

Seb's not that bad, but I've never been convinced he is nearly as good as some feel he is either. Take those same years in any other car on the CC grid, and I might give him 1 championship.

ZzZzZz

12th August 2008, 13:00

JV left F1 under a cloud of driving a car that was a total piece of crap, for a completely dysfunctional team that has yet to get the car or its own act together.

You are a tough audience, if winning the championship in your second year after being runner up in his rookie season is not enough for you to say someone "showed well" then pray tell what is???

Gary

Well, that was at BAR. He was on the wrong side of internal team politics and suffered from that. He probably held on so long because his contract was so lucrative.

The last thing he did was help develop the BMW Sauber.. He was apparently quite helpful. One his job was done, they had no need to retain such a well paid employee.

ShiftingGears

12th August 2008, 13:19

You adapt to a losing combination by correcting what needs to be changed.

By his own admission:

"Sebastian is better at adapting to it"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69748

He is correcting what needs to be changed.

garyshell

12th August 2008, 17:02

Well, that was at BAR. He was on the wrong side of internal team politics and suffered from that. He probably held on so long because his contract was so lucrative.

The last thing he did was help develop the BMW Sauber.. He was apparently quite helpful. One his job was done, they had no need to retain such a well paid employee.

Yep BAR was what I was thinking about. I forgot about the stint at Sauber. Much like I bet Jacques would like to forget the stint at BAR.

Gary

pits4me

13th August 2008, 18:49

I am getting frustrated with watching Sebastien Bourdais do so poorly in F1.

He cant be that bad....can he?

The trouble with F1 is how can you really compare who's having a bad season or not. We're were having similar discussions about Scott Speed during his TOD with STR.

Vettel is the more seasoned of the two Seb's with much more F1 experience particularly running on the grooved Bridgestones. Reserve driver for BMW Sauber (2006) must account for something. He's adapting to the loss of traction control and getting back to form.

SB has had some very good outings that turned into DNF's. I think it to early to group him into the Andretti, Zanardi scenario. He really belongs in the Renault camp instead of Alonso who's not there for the best interest of the team.

bblocker68

14th August 2008, 15:32

+1 for Seabass needing to go to Renault. They would treat their "home town boy" very well. Unfortunately, Seb had a falling out with Flav when negotiating a contract coming out of F3000. That was part of what led him to Champcar. I'd love to see him take Fred or Nelshino's seat next year.

14th August 2008, 16:05

He really belongs in the Renault camp instead of Alonso who's not there for the best interest of the team.

Why would Renault want somebody who can't come to terms with a car, the Toro Rosso, which is being driven better and to better results by somebody else?

Alonso, whilst not back at Renault for the long haul, is totally proven, knows how to work with the team and is Renault's best bet.

Bourdais had the chance to be in Alonso's seat once before....he didn't take it.

Also, if you had any actual knowledge, you would know that Renault's pro-French policy of the 1980's blew up horribly in their face with Alain Prost. There is no way on earth that Renault would risk putting a sub-par Frenchman into one of their cars now since the French press would crucify them, not the driver.

14th August 2008, 16:06

Much like I bet Jacques would like to forget the stint at BAR.

Gary

He might, but I bet his accountant has fond memories.

garyshell

14th August 2008, 18:11

He might, but I bet his accountant has fond memories.

And his manager!

Gary

CCWS77

15th August 2008, 03:49

That's not a flaw in f1 it's part of racing competition. All Racing. In SCCA World Challenge the guys with the Porsches have to take out wing because they are not as fast as the Corvettes and Vipers in a straight line. The drivers will have to deal with that understeer.
What if the Porshe driver wants to take out wing and the team says no we cant this car wasnt made to run like that just learn to drive it as it is? By all accounts including Vettel's that is what they told bourdais. The idea a driver has to just learn to live with that is crazy. If you take that postion then the traditional idea of a driver even learning how to setup a car is a meaningless waste of time since it will be given to them. There is a theoretical best setup according to the laws of physics which probably could be figured out by computer and lab testing with no driver input. Just use that then and the driver just has to becomes a robot that can drive anything. Fun?

bravefish

15th August 2008, 04:35

Also, if you had any actual knowledge, you would know that Renault's pro-French policy of the 1980's blew up horribly in their face with Alain Prost. There is no way on earth that Renault would risk putting a sub-par Frenchman into one of their cars now since the French press would crucify them, not the driver.[/QUOTE]

Mr 'all knowledgeable Tamburello' - what a load of bollocks - things in F1 turn on their head in a heartbeat and that was over 20 years ago !

That whole scenario must have affected Alain Prost so much that he didnt decide to run Olivier Panis in his own team...

Can you tell me who was rubbishing that ploy one day in atrocious conditions when a certain blue French car covered in French sponsorship driver by a French driver won the Monaco GP ????

A French driver in a Renault would be brilliant. The French media would love it ! Just like the Italian media do with Italian Ferrari drivers etc etc

Seabass is hardly sub par - in fact he's a very good driver and would compliment any team given time and development - the issue is with the Toro Rosso - its a heap of crap.

ShiftingGears

15th August 2008, 07:30

A French driver in a Renault would be brilliant.

I agree.

Sebastian Loeb to F1. You heard it here first.

...Why would Renault want a driver who can't beat his teammate in a backmarker team?

Mark

15th August 2008, 08:46

Some seem to give in if the driver fights enough, such as with Jacques Villeneueve at Williams, where his input, once they listened, helped the team.

Yep, JV was all at sea when he first joined the Williams team (finishing a lap down at Monaco for example), mostly because they overruled him on the setup, bascially saying having a car that stiff would be crazy. But eventually they gave up and said "do what you want", he did, and then went on to challenge for the world championship until the final race.

F1boat

15th August 2008, 13:35

Seb is a very good driver, his problem is that the car is bad and that Vettel might be even better. I think that his CCWS titles are not as impressive as the IRL championship winners or the old CART champions, but still he is a great driver.

15th August 2008, 14:36

A French driver in a Renault would be brilliant. The French media would love it ! Just like the Italian media do with Italian Ferrari drivers etc etc

Q - And the last Italian to have a full-time race seat contract for Ferrari was?

A - Ivan Capelli. The car was a dog and the Italian press had a field day. Ferrari have avoided an Italian ever since.

Prost (who wasn't the owner of Ligier when Panis won the Monaco GP but don't let little snippets of facts ruin your argument) ran Panis and then Alesi, both Frenchman, yet still his team went into receivership.

So much for the power of the French press.

Had they been as thrilled by the positioning of a Frenchman in a French car as you claim, then there would have been no problem for Alain to find the necessary sponsorship to replace the state-owned tobacco sponsor.

bravefish

15th August 2008, 21:17

Q - And the last Italian to have a full-time race seat contract for Ferrari was?

A - Ivan Capelli. The car was a dog and the Italian press had a field day. Ferrari have avoided an Italian ever since.

Prost (who wasn't the owner of Ligier when Panis won the Monaco GP but don't let little snippets of facts ruin your argument) ran Panis and then Alesi, both Frenchman, yet still his team went into receivership.

So much for the power of the French press.

Had they been as thrilled by the positioning of a Frenchman in a French car as you claim, then there would have been no problem for Alain to find the necessary sponsorship to replace the state-owned tobacco sponsor.

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You cant beat patriotic pride and any time a driver of the same nationality as the team gets together its fantastic for the media and the sport.

Whether the media is completely responsible for the demise of a team... we could debate that until the cows come home.. they play a role no doubt, but there are many more factors and good drivers dont neccessarily make good team owners...

Nicola Larini was the last Italian to drive for Ferrari (but dont let little snippets of facts ruin your argument)

There is no doubt that his 2nd place at the San Marino GP would have been superb hype for the Italian media had it not been overshadowed by a few other incidents that weekend...

However we can agree on one thing - the Ferrari back then was indeed a dog...

16th August 2008, 08:42

Nicola Larini was the last Italian to drive for Ferrari (but dont let little snippets of facts ruin your argument)

There is no doubt that his 2nd place at the San Marino GP would have been superb hype for the Italian media had it not been overshadowed by a few other incidents that weekend...

However we can agree on one thing - the Ferrari back then was indeed a dog...

Larini did not have a full-time race contract, though, did he? Read my post.

He was subbing for the injured Alesi.

But don't let failure to read a post or actual facts ruin your argument.

16th August 2008, 08:47

You cant beat patriotic pride and any time a driver of the same nationality as the team gets together its fantastic for the media and the sport.

Only when the results are good.

When they are bad to below-average, and Renault's post-2006 results have been (with 2 lucky exceptions) just that, it's a fecking nightmare.

Had, for example, Renault replaced the then Mclaren-bound Alonso with Bourdais, there would have been an initial buzz in the French media which would have then turned to lambasting either Renault or Bourdais for failure.

One good headline doesn't do any good if the other 20+ are full of vilification.

Mad_Hatter

17th August 2008, 00:22

What if the Porshe driver wants to take out wing and the team says no we cant this car wasnt made to run like that just learn to drive it as it is? By all accounts including Vettel's that is what they told bourdais. The idea a driver has to just learn to live with that is crazy. If you take that postion then the traditional idea of a driver even learning how to setup a car is a meaningless waste of time since it will be given to them. There is a theoretical best setup according to the laws of physics which probably could be figured out by computer and lab testing with no driver input. Just use that then and the driver just has to becomes a robot that can drive anything. Fun?

From what I've read it's not as simple a common adjustment. It's an issue with how the chassis is designed. Again, STR doesn't "design" their car. They are more or less supplied them by Red Bull Racing. I doubt they are truly at will to make far-reaching changes for one driver. Also, I have a hard time believing that his engineering team would willingly forgo his feedback now considering how respectably he was doing with the STR2 or whatever car they started the season with.

The idea that he should adapt to the car is not "crazy". What would you suggest for endurance racing teams and their setups?

bravefish

17th August 2008, 11:07

Larini did not have a full-time race contract, though, did he? Read my post.

He was subbing for the injured Alesi.

But don't let failure to read a post or actual facts ruin your argument.

Excellent stuff - cheers for the laugh - I could have written your post for you.

18th August 2008, 12:50

Excellent stuff - cheers for the laugh - I could have written your post for you.

Your welcome, but I don't think I'm quite ready to take your comedy Post mantle just yet.

But, just for the fun of it, please explain why, if Bourdais at Renault would be such a hot media ticket, did Renault not offer him the world to get him into the car back when he was in F3000?

After all, if it was such media dynamite, it is very unlikely the Renault boardroom would have let Flavio Briatore offer him what was, to Bourdais, a poor contract. They'd surely have been offering all sorts for that kind of media gold.

If your theory holds water....what made them let him go?

ZzZzZz

19th August 2008, 11:12

Your welcome, but I don't think I'm quite ready to take your comedy Post mantle just yet.

But, just for the fun of it, please explain why, if Bourdais at Renault would be such a hot media ticket, did Renault not offer him the world to get him into the car back when he was in F3000?

After all, if it was such media dynamite, it is very unlikely the Renault boardroom would have let Flavio Briatore offer him what was, to Bourdais, a poor contract. They'd surely have been offering all sorts for that kind of media gold.

If your theory holds water....what made them let him go?

Because like you, they are under Flavio's spell?

If he was so worthless, why was Flavio so insistent on signing him for a career-long management contract? Pulling a bait-and-switch when he showed up for the test, not allowing him in the car unless he signed? Why pull such a stunt on a mediocre driver with no promise?

Clearly, his F3000 performance merited an invitation to test from Renault. Someone was interested in him. Then, when he refused to sign, Flavio slandered him (along with *all* French drivers, including Montagny by inference). Why would he do *that*? What suddenly changed other than refusing to give Flavio a huge cut of his career earnings? Nothing. The slander was to take the eyes off himself for his corrupt conflicted interest in running the team. That simple.

(As a side note, Montagny is now an AGR driver in ALMS and may soon have an Indy Car test.)

BobGarage

19th August 2008, 13:20

(As a side note, Montagny is now an AGR driver in ALMS and may soon have an Indy Car test.)

he's already had an IndyCar test, at the start of the month at Kentucky ;)

garyshell

19th August 2008, 15:48

Because like you, they are under Flavio's spell?

If he was so worthless, why was Flavio so insistent on signing him for a career-long management contract? Pulling a bait-and-switch when he showed up for the test, not allowing him in the car unless he signed? Why pull such a stunt on a mediocre driver with no promise?

Why, because Flavio takes care of Flavio first. Always has, always will. This says nothing about Sebastian's skill, positive or negative. It was a case of Flavio covering his own interests FIRST, in case the kid DID look good.

Clearly, his F3000 performance merited an invitation to test from Renault. Someone was interested in him. Then, when he refused to sign, Flavio slandered him (along with *all* French drivers, including Montagny by inference). Why would he do *that*? What suddenly changed other than refusing to give Flavio a huge cut of his career earnings? Nothing. The slander was to take the eyes off himself for his corrupt conflicted interest in running the team. That simple.

(As a side note, Montagny is now an AGR driver in ALMS and may soon have an Indy Car test.)

The rest I agree with 100%.

Gary

19th August 2008, 17:01

Because like you, they are under Flavio's spell?

The slander was to take the eyes off himself for his corrupt conflicted interest in running the team. That simple.

Yes, right, of course.

Renault would obviously be delighted to let a corrupt conflicted-interest individual dictate to them and let 'le enfant d'or' walk away and couldn't possibly have anything to do with the driver not being a mega talent.

How silly of me to think that a multi-national corporation and major car manufacturer wouldn't be hoodwinked like that.

Except, of course, that Renault did test Bourdais. They saw first-hand what he'd got.

If he'd have been mega, if he'd been the golden ticket to media glory, then the contract offer wouldn't have been such a poor one.

Now that is simple.

pits4me

20th August 2008, 21:40

If he'd have been mega, if he'd been the golden ticket to media glory, then the contract offer wouldn't have been such a poor one.

Now that is simple.

Unless he was railroaded to a poor showing for obvious reasons.

21st August 2008, 12:51

Unless he was railroaded to a poor showing for obvious reasons.

If that really were the case, then he was never going to be good enough.

If he couldn't handle that kind of pressure, then he would have stood no chance at the top-end of F1.

If what you claim was the truth, then the Renault management made an excellent decision to drop Bourdais off their radar and never pay any attention to him again.

garyshell

21st August 2008, 15:05

If that really were the case, then he was never going to be good enough.

If he couldn't handle that kind of pressure, then he would have stood no chance at the top-end of F1.

If what you claim was the truth, then the Renault management made an excellent decision to drop Bourdais off their radar and never pay any attention to him again.

I don't think pits was suggesting pressure so much as sabotage. Railroading can be done in many ways, not just mental games.

Gary

21st August 2008, 15:29

I don't think pits was suggesting pressure so much as sabotage. Railroading can be done in many ways, not just mental games.

Gary

I'm sorry Gary, but even if he was claiming 'sabotage' all it shows is that he's read too many conspiracy theories.

The idea that Bourdais had his Renault test 'knobbled' (if that's not an American phrase, I apologise...it means sabotaged) is far fetched in the extreme.

The simpler answer is often the real answer.

He wasn't good enough.

garyshell

21st August 2008, 15:33

I'm sorry Gary, but even if he was claiming 'sabotage' all it shows is that he's read too many conspiracy theories.

The idea that Bourdais had his Renault test 'knobbled' (if that's not an American phrase, I apologise...it means sabotaged) is far fetched in the extreme.

The simpler answer is often the real answer.

He wasn't good enough.

But didn't he refuse to sign the Flavio extortion contract prior to the test? If so, I would not be at all surprised that the car was not up to snuff. I put NOTHING past Flavio.

Gary

21st August 2008, 17:32

But didn't he refuse to sign the Flavio extortion contract prior to the test? If so, I would not be at all surprised that the car was not up to snuff. I put NOTHING past Flavio.

Gary

Even if the car wasn't Alonso-spec, had Bourdais done anything stella in it, the engineers would have been very keen to get his services.

Whilst Flavio is sly, he isn't a fool, and had Pat Symonds said that the boy Bourdais was special, Flavio would have listened.

22nd August 2008, 13:21

My understanding is that Seb never got in the car, he was required to sign that contract as a condition of the test at the last moment. So how would anyone know if he was "special", just ordinary or out to lunch? Far worse drivers than him have had test laps.

He did test.

http://www.formula1.com/gallery/other/2007/176.html

He crashed into the gravel, as the FIA official Formula One website illustrates.