Has there ever been an uglier formula car?

[bennybigb]

I was thinking about how terrible the IRL cars look and sound, it it occured to me that we are probably at an all time low in American formula car racing.

I believe the current IRL car to be the ugliest formula car ever created. What do you guys think? Are there worse cars out there? How about posting a link.

Just keep in mind, this is what your up against.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/02xQb9Y7dndFO

[Alexamateo]

I nominate this one! :D

[garyshell]

Didn't we already go through this "exercise" (or is it exorcise) once?

Gary

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I believe the current IRL car to be the ugliest formula car ever created. What do you guys think?

I personally think you know nothing about F1 in the seventies.

[-Helix-]

Watch an F1 race sometime.

The tail-fins and front wings make the Dallara look like a sexy beast.

Personally I think the Dallara looks good besides the weird bump in the nose. Not a big deal though. At least it looks different and fast, unlike the numerous European ladder series lookalikes.

[Rex Monaco]

Watch an F1 race sometime.

The tail-fins and front wings make the Dallara look like a sexy beast.

I've never seen a sexy beast before. But a beast the Dallara does resemble.

While watching an F1 race recently, I was thinking that allowing teams to develop their own aero packages might help solve the current cookie cutter aspect of the spec chassis.

[anthonyvop]

I nominate this one! :D
Yea, but there was only one of those not 26!!!

[Alexamateo]

Yea, but there was only one of those not 26!!!

Au contraire! :D

[IMG]b.f1-facts.com/ul/a/3207[IMG]

[Alexamateo]

Yea, but there was only one of those not 26!!!

Au Contraire! :D

[IMG]http://b.f1-facts.com/ul/a/3207

[speeddurango]

Possibly F1 cars don't really look good in the 70's but even the most outrageous design in the era didn't make me feel as bad as the current IRL car the first time I looked at it. I think it was possibly because the era in 70's marked the begining of aerodynamics development in motorsport history so it was kind of like everybody's trying new ideas and such. But now it's 30 years later how can anybody still design a car that makes it look outrageous is beyond me.

[DBell]

Au Contraire! :D

[IMG]http://b.f1-facts.com/ul/a/3207

I see a lot of different designs there, not one singular one.

The 6 wheel Tyrell P34 wasn't a beautiful car, but an interesting one as were a lot of the F1 cars of that era. I wouldn't call some of the later 70's F1 cars ugly, especially the Lotus 79. In fact the Lotus 72 in this picture was a good looking car.

[vintage]

The needle nose of the current Dallara is the most god-awful looking thing!

[garyshell]

Possibly F1 cars don't really look good in the 70's but even the most outrageous design in the era didn't make me feel as bad as the current IRL car the first time I looked at it. I think it was possibly because the era in 70's marked the begining of aerodynamics development in motorsport history so it was kind of like everybody's trying new ideas and such. But now it's 30 years later how can anybody still design a car that makes it look outrageous is beyond me.


To me it is pretty simple, even after 30 years, folks continue to "try new ideas and such". And that provides the more than occasional "outrageous" design. **** happens. I think the LONG pencil nose, as shown in the in ital message in this thread, is it's real downfall looks wise. The rest of the criticisms I have heard don't seem like much to me, again speaking of "aesthetics". But too me, it is another one of those "odd" birds I don't like the look off. No more odd than the dozens of other "odd" looking designs that have occurred THROUGHOUT those thirty intervening years. And that is my point. There have always been "odd" designs, but we usually see them in smaller numbers. Only one or two of 'em in F1, where some comparisons of looks have been discussed here. And any given overall design in F1 lasts a few years at most, often much less. In USAC and CART the designs were never as short-lived as F1, but with enough variations and unique designs to produce these "odd" birds too. The advent of the spec series unfortunately has increased the lifecyle of any given odd design. So we are stuck with them longer. And in greater numbers.

I am just crossing my fingers on what the next design looks like, because again we are going to see it for a while and across the entire field, most likely.

Gary

[garyshell]

I see a lot of different designs there, not one singular one.

The 6 wheel Tyrell P34 wasn't a beautiful car, but an interesting one as were a lot of the F1 cars of that era. I wouldn't call some of the later 70's F1 cars ugly, especially the Lotus 79. In fact the Lotus 72 in this picture was a good looking car.


Yes, it was a GREAT looking car and mixed into every field that had a beautiful car was another that was "odd". Your built in ugly detector would go off. Mine goes off with the Dallara. For others, the Dallara doesn't make their detector trigger. We just happen to have an entire field of 'em.

Gary

[Miatanut]

Possibly F1 cars don't really look good in the 70's but even the most outrageous design in the era didn't make me feel as bad as the current IRL car the first time I looked at it. I think it was possibly because the era in 70's marked the begining of aerodynamics development in motorsport history so it was kind of like everybody's trying new ideas and such. But now it's 30 years later how can anybody still design a car that makes it look outrageous is beyond me.

http://www.todo-f1.com/photoplog/images/464/large/1_76voi-Ligier_js5.jpg
While this was the most wild one, you know back in the '70's it didn't look so odd.

[MAX_THRUST]

Does any one else think the current irl car looks like a bad 70's f1 car then? Or is it just me?

If you changed the nose on the current car I think it would look so much better.

[Shai-Hulud]

http://www.todo-f1.com/photoplog/images/464/large/1_76voi-Ligier_js5.jpg
While this was the most wild one, you know back in the '70's it didn't look so odd.

Is it just me or would this car benefit from a sponsorship by the smurfs?

Concerning the Dallara, I have to say that this design surely stands out from all those standard GP2 lookalikes. Like it or not (and, for what it matters, I have nothing against that car), but it definitely has an identity of its own, and with all these random new racing formulas popping up from time to time (Superleague formula!!?? I'm not seeing the brilliance behind such an idea...), I would say that it's extremely important to be recognizable.

[ShiftingGears]

Is it just me or would this car benefit from a sponsorship by the smurfs?

Concerning the Dallara, I have to say that this design surely stands out from all those standard GP2 lookalikes. Like it or not (and, for what it matters, I have nothing against that car), but it definitely has an identity of its own, and with all these random new racing formulas popping up from time to time (Superleague formula!!?? I'm not seeing the brilliance behind such an idea...), I would say that it's extremely important to be recognizable.

It would be more recognisable if it did not have a rear wing. Less aero grip, therefore slower cornering speed, cars are less affected by turbulent air, therefore more passing. Then the racing would be more recognisable.

[Rex Monaco]

The tail-fins and front wings make the Dallara look like a sexy beast.

I found the beast it resembles. But I still wouldn't call a beast sexy.

http://share.skype.com/images/stories/images/blog/featuredskyper/duanedefreitas_anteater.jpg

[DrDomm]

FWIW, everything from the '70's (clothes, haircuts, cars, etc.) looks funny now. But the current Dallara looks funny at a time when it should be "in style".

Also, minus a few silly fins, I think the current F1 cars look beautiful. Once the noses got dropped a little, the aesthetics improved drastically.

[Miatanut]

FWIW, everything from the '70's (clothes, haircuts, cars, etc.) looks funny now. But the current Dallara looks funny at a time when it should be "in style".

Also, minus a few silly fins, I think the current F1 cars look beautiful. Once the noses got dropped a little, the aesthetics improved drastically.

Yes, I think a few years from now, all these fins, flaps and flippers will look even more hideous than they do now.

I agree, if you could take all those appendages off, the generally sculptured look of the current cars is beautiful. If they can figure out how to outlaw the fins so we get just the sculptured part, they will be almost as pretty as the late '60's cars.

[nigelred5]

Yes, I think a few years from now, all these fins, flaps and flippers will look even more hideous than they do now.

I agree, if you could take all those appendages off, the generally sculptured look of the current cars is beautiful. If they can figure out how to outlaw the fins so we get just the sculptured part, they will be almost as pretty as the late '60's cars.

I believe that's pretty much what the '09 F1 aero regs do.

[Miatanut]

I believe that's pretty much what the '09 F1 aero regs do.

I hope.

They've been trying to write rules to eliminate all the "aero appendages" for years, but the teams keep finding things that comply with the letter but not the intent.

[call_me_andrew]

My vote for ugliest car:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/J_p_montoya_usgp_2004.jpg

[Champcar4life]

My vote for ugliest car:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/J_p_montoya_usgp_2004.jpg

You got that right.

[ShiftingGears]

My vote for ugliest car:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/J_p_montoya_usgp_2004.jpg

Not the stupidest looking design for a car though.

http://www.research-racing.de/gpx1955.jpg

[underpowered]

This is the ugliest

"These cars are not very suited to road course racing as is. It is a 1969 Camaro front end with a 1955 Chevrolet pickup rear end bolted and welded together. The suspension itself isn't a sports car-style suspension. The bodies themselves don't induce downforce like you see in other forms of road racing. So, this car is not typically built for this style of racing, but we make it work." -- Dale Earnhardt Jr. on how NASCAR's new car is suited for road course racing.

[DanicaFan]

The Dallara is a beautiful car. Especially this one... :D

[Ranger]

The Dallara is a beautiful car. Especially this one... :D

Case in point. The best looking Dallara's are the ones that best obscure those the damn ugly contours!

[garyshell]

The Dallara is a beautiful car. Especially this one... :D

At that angle maybe so, but look at it again directly from the side and tell us the same thing with a straight face. The "anteater" nose on these things is something only a mother could love, an anteater mother at that.

Gary

[The instant classic]

the ugliest car is nascar COT car, thats like someone puke on s***

[ChampUSfan]

Personally I love the Dallara's. They look awesome.

I think the ugliest is the Formula 1 car...i hate their designs. It looks like a space ship...

[The instant classic]

Personally I love the Dallara's. They look awesome.

I think the ugliest is the Formula 1 car...i hate their designs. It looks like a space ship...
dont you feel that the IRL car for next year looks like an F1 car?
i dont know if you have seen it?

but from the only pic i saw, i might add it was a black and white pic i saw,
it looks like an F1 car,

[garyshell]

dont you feel that the IRL car for next year looks like an F1 car?
i dont know if you have seen it?

but from the only pic i saw, i might add it was a black and white pic i saw,
it looks like an F1 car,


What picture would that be? The IRL car for next year is the IRL car we have right now.

Gary

[The instant classic]

What picture would that be? The IRL car for next year is the IRL car we have right now.

Gary
give me afew mins to find the site again :up:

[The instant classic]

What picture would that be? The IRL car for next year is the IRL car we have right now.

Gary
i wolud say my bad,, or the sites, bad, the site that shows the new car, says it comes out next year :eek: but i just went on indycar.com and it says the new, car comes in,,2010, so my bad, and the sites bad,, :D

[ShiftingGears]

I really don't get the talk about the Dallara being an ugly car.




Because the problem is far worse than it being ugly. They're boring. They look slow.

Now I don't give a toss about laptimes, because as long as it looks fast, it'll contribute to the spectacle. But the Dallara has way too much grip, for the amount of horsepower it has.


And that is a significant factor as to why the IRL is suffering! They just haven't got a car that exploits the fact that there is no chassis competition.

[indycool]

I really don't know why we seem to have a thread talking about the Dallara being ugly started every few months. It is what it is and some, I guess, are going to say it's ugly and some are going to say the opposite.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Remember the 1980 Pennzoil Chaparral that Johnny Rutherford drove to the championship? Beautiful car. Remember "Old Hound," the McLaren that was two years old when Tom Sneva drove it to victories and poles when the old Sugaripe Prune team couldn't sort out the supposedly new and improved Phoenix chassis and kept dragging the older piece off the truck? They didn't even update the paint job on it.

But the current Dallara looks funny at a time when it should be "in style".

Style should have feck all to do with it.

Function should be everything in a series that wants to be considered as a top-line racing arena.

The Mclaren Mp4/23 isn't easy on the eye compared to the F2008 Ferrari, but I very much doubt that Ron Dennis could give a monkeys so long as it's in front.

[JSH]

Style should have feck all to do with it.

Function should be everything in a series that wants to be considered as a top-line racing arena.

The Mclaren Mp4/23 isn't easy on the eye compared to the F2008 Ferrari, but I very much doubt that Ron Dennis could give a monkeys so long as it's in front.

:up:

[garyshell]

Style should have feck all to do with it.

Function should be everything in a series that wants to be considered as a top-line racing arena.

The Mclaren Mp4/23 isn't easy on the eye compared to the F2008 Ferrari, but I very much doubt that Ron Dennis could give a monkeys so long as it's in front.


He's BACK!!!!!! I was just saying to someone the other day that I wondered where you had been!

I agree function is numereo uno, but if the things look like pigs and we have a full field all of the same machine, then it could be a bit hard to market. No?

Gary

[indycool]

On the marketing side, I don't think you're trying to sell Sadie in Omaha a Dallara, but sell her on the racing in general or if Castroneves is handsome or her husband thinks Danica is hot and will go right out and buy some Peak Antifreeze. In F1, the marketing is different because the manufacturers' role is different.

NASCAR has that marketing issue with manufacturers right now, first with the common template and then with the COT. The cars all look the same.

IMO, if another manufacturer or manufacturers wind up on board when the new specs come out, that will be an ADDITIONAL marketing arm for the series through the motors.

Whatever......I think Julia Roberts is hot, but someone will disagree.

[garyshell]

On the marketing side, I don't think you're trying to sell Sadie in Omaha a Dallara, but sell her on the racing in general or if Castroneves is handsome or her husband thinks Danica is hot and will go right out and buy some Peak Antifreeze.


However if you trot out 26 of these:

http://www.research-racing.de/gpx1955.jpg

it's game over. You aren't going to get Sadie to watch long enough to even sell her on racing in general no matter how many dancin' shows Castroneves shows up on, or how many glamor shots Danica poses for.


My point is as long as we have a single chassis, and will have it for a while, some efforts better go into making sure it is at least somewhat decent looking. A pure "form follows function" model could spell real trouble if it looks like the pig above.

Gary

[indycool]

Yes, Gary, I can put my finger on why people think that particular car is ugly. The short sidepods give the impression that the rest of the car is not there. IF that's an airbox and a mirror in front of the cockpit, that's weird and looks way out of place.

Frankly, you -- and others on this forum -- are much more technically knowledgeable about what you like and don't like in the looks of a race car than I am. I'm pretty ambivalent about rear-engine race cars although I like some paint jobs better than others.

I don't know that a GENERAL audience could tell the difference between an '86 March and an '05 Dallara except for the airbox. And at 200 miles an hour down a straightaway, that isn't even standout obvious. Like all front engine cars used to look pretty much the same, all rear-engine cars -- to a GENERAL, CASUAL fan -- look pretty much the same.

Personally, I think the California supermodifieds, all products of the individual speed-shopper's art, are the prettiest race cars anywhere.

[pits4me]

In other words, if Detroit and Japan didn't push the design envelope we'd still be in Model T's. General audiences and new race fans like the ones that go to Long Beach showed their appreciation for the DP01 turbos because they looked and sounded a little technical.

In years past fans preferred the sound of the Atlantics versus the old Buick V6 Indy light cars. Fast cars with push to pass and option tires prompted questions and interest. More exciting than the slugs we saw at Edmonton a few weeks ago.

[indycool]

Your opinion duly noted.

How many attendees at Long Beach do you estimate ever saw the current Indy cars or the Indy Lights cars anywhere, period? How many could even pass judgment on that basis?

[DrDomm]

Style should have feck all to do with it.

Function should be everything in a series that wants to be considered as a top-line racing arena.

The Mclaren Mp4/23 isn't easy on the eye compared to the F2008 Ferrari, but I very much doubt that Ron Dennis could give a monkeys so long as it's in front.

First, I agree that form should follow function, but I just find it unlikely that the Indy Dallara is a strong example of that philosophy. That being said, they should at least make it look good.

Second, I think the McLaren is the most beautiful car in the F1 paddock...minus a couple of silly aero pieces.

[Miatanut]

Yes, Gary, I can put my finger on why people think that particular car is ugly. The short sidepods give the impression that the rest of the car is not there. IF that's an airbox and a mirror in front of the cockpit, that's weird and looks way out of place.

The short sidepods were the norm on mid-70's Indy and F1 cars. They didn't look weird back then. The nose is similar to some other cars of the time. The ugliness on this car is the snorkel in front of the driver and high central rear view mirror, as you've noted.

[Miatanut]

Second, I think the McLaren is the most beautiful car in the F1 paddock...minus a couple of silly aero pieces.

Me too!

[philipbain]

It has to be said, the current IRL car is hardly a thing of beauty, it serves its purpose and is big on advertising space. The nose on the Dallara is particularly hideous, the IRL Panoz chassis wasn't exactly a looker but it did look better, though dynamically the Dallara is superior, hence why they are now ubiquitous.

Its a shame as throughout the CART era american open wheel racing was host to a lot of very attractive single seaters, particularly the Champ Cars from circa '92-'93 onwards. Infact the Panoz DP01 Champ car from last year was a much better looking car than any of the IRL cars have been (discounting the earliest IRL cars that were infact Champ Car chassis).

2010 should bring a new formula that hopefully will usher back in turbo engines (much more practical for street racing as a turbo acts as a silencer) and a more attractive chassis too.

[F1boat]

I dunno about the Dallara, but ypu guys killed me with this ugly old Formulas. My stomach hurts because of so much laughter. Rofl! Especially the smurf car!

[Rex Monaco]

How many attendees at Long Beach do you estimate ever saw the current Indy cars or the Indy Lights cars anywhere, period?

If the past few years of TV ratings are any indication, very few people anywhere have seen an Indy Car.

[garyshell]

Well, I think we have a new contender in the ugliest formula car ever.

http://66.223.111.192/Images/2009/F1/Misc/FerrariF60-2.jpg

Wow. I was hopeful with the new aero rules. I thought they would bring out some better passing, which I still think they will. But at what cost? I thought the split rear wing concept looked MUCH bettter.

Gary

[EagleEye]

Well, I think we have a new contender in the ugliest formula car ever.

http://66.223.111.192/Images/2009/F1/Misc/FerrariF60-2.jpg

Wow. I was hopeful with the new aero rules. I thought they would bring out some better passing, which I still think they will. But at what cost? I thought the split rear wing concept looked MUCH bettter.

Gary

The Dallara Indycar is a beaut compared to the new F1...things, and more passing and better racing to boot!

[Mark in Oshawa]

F1 Cars are ugly...but there is no concession to anything but speed. The Dallara? Sorry...it isn't that. If it was, it would have much more elaborate wing surfaces. The road racing package is better looking but the side pods look like they were designed in a hurry and the speedway package is a bit of a joke in design.

IC...I agree with you most of the general public cant tell much from the stands but not at a stand still. The CART car and CCWS DP-01 both had very nice proportions. THAT is where the Dallara is in trouble.

I think whatever they do, some consideration has to go for aesthetic's. It isn't the be all and end all and wont cure all ills but a generally pretty race car will be an easier sell to the hard core fan that isnt' a big fan of the Dallara. I know some IRL fans who don't like that design....

[indycool]

Yeah, Mark, I agree.....but the guy in the stands sees it moving more than he sees it standing still.

[beachbum]

I guess I am just weird, but I never cared much for the "look" of the DP-01. It looked just like many other support class formula cars. The high nose just never quite looked right to me. The Dallara isn't any beauty either with its long pointy beak. But a race car isn't built for looks, it is built for function. Some end up with a graceful appearance like the Indy Chaparrals and Eagles, but many don't.

Now for ugly, the new F1 aero package ranks right up there. Huge front wing and a little narrow rear wing. If you painted every F1 car the same color, it would be hard to tell them apart fro any distance

[Mark in Oshawa]

I guess I am just weird, but I never cared much for the "look" of the DP-01. It looked just like many other support class formula cars. The high nose just never quite looked right to me. The Dallara isn't any beauty either with its long pointy beak. But a race car isn't built for looks, it is built for function. Some end up with a graceful appearance like the Indy Chaparrals and Eagles, but many don't.

Now for ugly, the new F1 aero package ranks right up there. Huge front wing and a little narrow rear wing. If you painted every F1 car the same color, it would be hard to tell them apart fro any distance

Put that high nose on the Dallara and it might be interesting.

Not sure why you dislike that high nose but the DP-01 version was a pretty close copy of the Lola and Reynard. Where the DP-01 was the sidepod and the rear bodywork. The proportions were right too. The Nose of the Dallara looks like a face with a big beak on the front. You wouldn't date a woman with that kind of nose...or maybe you would...not sure.

[jimispeed]

The DP01 is the best looking open wheel car ever produced IMO. Mostly because for once someone listened to the fans, and made a car that retained the "signature hoop", and evolved the former car while retaining and improving it's sexy lines. Plus, it's a faster car. I still believe it deserves a chance to be a contender on the ovals/street/road circuits.

But, I doubt anyone else does......

[indycool]

Speed is limited by the rules.

[anthonyvop]

The Dallara Indycar is a beaut compared to the new F1...things,


Beauty is subjective but I suspect more people would find an F1 much more attractive than the current Dallara ICS car


and more passing and better racing to boot!

More passing I won't argue but better racing? Not even close.
Passing does not mean racing.

[indycool]

If passing dosn't mean racing, what does?

[beachbum]

Passing does not mean racing.
??????? You lost me on that one.

Racing is all about beating the other guy, which involves passing. Anything else is just a fast parade.

[garyshell]

More passing I won't argue but better racing? Not even close.
Passing does not mean racing.


Ok, then what does???

Garu

[SarahFan]

race 2 (rs)
n.
1. Sports
a. A competition of speed, as in running or riding.
b. races A series of such competitions held at a specified time on a regular course: a fan of the dog races.
2. An extended competition in which participants struggle like runners to be the winner: the presidential race.
3. Steady or rapid onward movement: the race of time.
4.
a. A strong or swift current of water.
b. The channel of such a current.
c. An artificial channel built to transport water and use its energy. Also called raceway.
5. A groovelike part of a machine in which a moving part slides or rolls.
6. See slipstream.
v. raced, rac·ing, rac·es
v.intr.
1. Sports To compete in a contest of speed.
2. To move rapidly or at top speed: We raced home. My heart was racing with fear.
3. To run too rapidly due to decreased resistance or unnecessary provision of fuel: adjusted the idle to keep the engine from racing.
v.tr.
1. Sports
a. To compete against in a race.
b. To cause to compete in a race: She races horses for a living.
2. To transport rapidly or at top speed; rush: raced the injured motorist to the hospital.
3. To cause (an engine with the gears disengaged, for example) to run swiftly or too swiftly.

[SarahFan]

the above definition doesn't mention passing at all....

but speed is clearly part of the equation

[indycool]

Oh.

[SarahFan]

Oh.

a competition of passing would be a game of leap frog

[SarahFan]

A competition of speed only would be like F1 where the fastest car starts on the pole and finishes first. Or, in a much more appropriate setting, qualifying where you are only looking for the fastest time and pure speed is the determining factor.

Racing on the other hand involves not just speed but (hopefully) contesting against ambient conditions (rain, heat, mechanicals, tires) AND your competitors for track position which would involve passing - or at least serious attempts at same.

nope....your describeing equality of competition....

a statement was made..... passing does not equate to racing

a question was asked.....if not passing then what does?


well the asnwer is clearly and by defintion "speed"

[indycool]

Well, watch autocross then.

[garyshell]

nope....your describeing equality of competition....

a statement was made..... passing does not equate to racing

a question was asked.....if not passing then what does?


well the asnwer is clearly and by defintion "speed"

Ok just for the sake of argument let's except your very narrow definition of "racing = speed". If the track was divided into individual lanes (ala drag racing) then yes speed would be the only factor.

But in the real world of oval and road racing, such lanes are not in play. This "racing = speed" definition, when applied to oval or road courses would need to be "racing = speed over the length of the event", right? Accepting that, one would easily see that for one competitor to show more speed than another over the length of the event, said competitor would have to pass another, no? Without that, as others have pointed out, we have the pole sitter setting the pace (speed) and others in a parade behind them. Is that "racing"? I think not, and I suspect neither to you, despite your insistance on this very narrow interpretation of the dictionary definition.

Note that the definition says a "competition of speed". It also defines the word as "To compete against in a race" (which I believe is the correct definition to reference for the word "racing" in the context used here). And you said that passing is about the "competition in a race", thus I think it is a lot more accurate representation.

But, I suspect you and Anthony will cling to the narrower focus. Given that, it begs the question: Which is a BETTER race, the one with a shorter time over 100 laps at a given circuit. Or one with several on track lead changes, aka passing, over the same distance on the same track?

Gary

[beachbum]

nope....your describeing equality of competition....

a statement was made..... passing does not equate to racing

a question was asked.....if not passing then what does?


well the asnwer is clearly and by defintion "speed"
Huh. You lost me there.

[SarahFan]

so if a racer starts from pole and leads start to finish then he didn't compete in a race?


*Some of you are comical in your attempts at projection

[garyshell]

so if a racer leads starts from pole and leads start to finish then he didn't compete in a race?


*Some of you are comical in your attempts at projection

He did but such circumstance is the ONLY way the winner could compete in a race that contained no passing. No?

You and Anthony seem to be the only ones insisting that passing is not a factor in defining what constitutes racing. The rest of us are suggesting it is a combination of speed AND passing. And WE are the ones being comical??? :eek:

Gary

[SarahFan]

as usual you read what you want to support your need for confrontation.....

I never said passing' wasn't important to racing

Simply answered a question with supporting evidence

[garyshell]

nope....your describeing equality of competition....

a statement was made..... passing does not equate to racing

a question was asked.....if not passing then what does?


well the asnwer is clearly and by defintion "speed"


as usual you read what you want to support your need for confrontation.....

I never said passing' wasn't important to racing

Simply answered a question with supporting evidence


Ok, if you say so Ken. Sure looked to me like you were suggesting that passing was not part of what defines racing. If it is imporant part of racing, I don't see how it is not a part of the definition of what racing is.

Gary

For fecks sake people!!!!!

Only fans of AOWR could argue about what the definition of racing is!

Tony George isn't the problem, CART team owners weren't the problem, ChampCar management weren't the problem.....it's you lot who are the problem!

[seppefan]

I was thinking about how terrible the IRL cars look and sound, it it occured to me that we are probably at an all time low in American formula car racing.

I believe the current IRL car to be the ugliest formula car ever created. What do you guys think? Are there worse cars out there? How about posting a link.

Just keep in mind, this is what your up against.

www.daylife.com/photo/02xQb9Y7dndFO (http://www.daylife.com/photo/02xQb9Y7dndFO)

NO

[anthonyvop]

Passing while it can be a part of racing does not define it.

If you lead from poll to finish is that not a race?

If a driver on a road course is closely behind another driver and dips and dives in attempts to pass but never quite gets it done...Is that not an exciting race?

Professional Rally has no passing at all except on the time sheets. Is that not racing?

The NHRA has been quite successful over the years. How many passes do you see in Top Fuel or Funny Car? Is that not racing.

People here like to point out the lack of passing in F1 yet most on this planet consider it the pinacle of Motorsports.

Personally I find the side-by-Side racing of the IRL on ovals kind of boring. When 2 or 3 guys just hold their foot down all the way around the track it doesn't hold my interest.

[anthonyvop]

For fecks sake people!!!!!

Only fans of AOWR could argue about what the definition of racing is!

Tony George isn't the problem, CART team owners weren't the problem, ChampCar management weren't the problem.....it's you lot who are the problem!

So it is the public that is the problem?
So much for the customer being always right.

[indycool]

Racing against a clock is one thing. Racing against one another is a different thing.

[SarahFan]

Ok, if you say so Ken. Sure looked to me like you were suggesting that passing was not part of what defines racing. If it is imporant part of racing, I don't see how it is not a part of the definition of what racing is.

Gary


http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/contact.htm


I'm sure they would appreciate the feedback

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, I think we have a new contender in the ugliest formula car ever.

http://66.223.111.192/Images/2009/F1/Misc/FerrariF60-2.jpg

Wow. I was hopeful with the new aero rules. I thought they would bring out some better passing, which I still think they will. But at what cost? I thought the split rear wing concept looked MUCH bettter.

Gary

I was hoping for a more proportional rear wing too. But within the rules, form follows function. I like the fact that the multitude of flip-ups, winglets and aero warts have been removed. But even as a McLaren/Hamilton fan, I still thought the 2008 Ferrari was a gorgeous car - the sharpest on the grid. But this year's car is very smooth and flowing. It's wider and it's great to have slicks back. The only thing I don't like is the narrow rear wing.

But like they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One has a rear wing that's out of proportion (width), but I think the rest of the car is beautiful. The other has a nose that's out of proportion (length), and the rest of the car is nothing special, IMO. I wasn't a huge fan of the DP-01 either, so maybe I'm just out of touch with what AOWR fans like these days.

http://www.pitpass.com/images/galleries/2009launchferrari/2009launchferrari_s004.jpg

http://cdn1.gamepro.com/global/radar/blog_images/80453-1.jpg

[vintage]

I think the Dallara or IR5 or whatever is among the ugliest open wheel cars ever. I will just add that I was talking to an Indy Lights driver and he disagreed and said it was "purposeful looking".

[garyshell]

For fecks sake people!!!!!

Only fans of AOWR could argue about what the definition of racing is!

Tony George isn't the problem, CART team owners weren't the problem, ChampCar management weren't the problem.....it's you lot who are the problem!


Ouch!!! Heck it is winter and damn cold outside (9 degrees) so what else is there to do except... well you know... bicker a bit.

Gary

[SarahFan]

what else is there to do except...
Gary

search youtube for more videos directed by Tony George!?!?

[beachbum]

Ouch!!! Heck it is winter and damn cold outside (9 degrees) so what else is there to do except... well you know... bicker a bit.

GaryYou can tell it's a really slow off season when the most discussed topic is "what is racing". Semantics aside, I know it when I see it.

Now, lets go racing - soon.http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[DanicaFan]

The Dallara is much better looking than that ugly F1 Ferrari car..

But no car is any prettier than this one...

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/car1-1.jpg

[Rex Monaco]

He did but such circumstance is the ONLY way the winner could compete in a race that contained no passing. No?

I don't beleive that passing is the only way someone not starting from the pole could compete in a race and win.

You could win by having a faster pit stop. Does that constitute a pass?

You could take the win if the lead car crashes, develops technical issues or runs out of gas. Is that a pass?

You could also win if the leader is given a time penalty. Is that a pass?

And you could win if the lead car is found post race to be in violation of the rules.

[Jag_Warrior]

The Dallara is much better looking than that ugly F1 Ferrari car..

But no car is any prettier than this one...

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/car1-1.jpg

You're not the only person who feels that way, DanicaFan. Here's another fellow who feels exactly the same way.

http://mossavi.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/00113.jpg

[indycool]

Boy, Rex, you sure listed a lot of reasons why we enjoy the excitement of racing.

[SarahFan]

Boy, Rex, you sure listed a lot of reasons why we enjoy the excitement of racing.

nope....


he listed numerous reasons why we as race fans prefer close competition in racing

[SarahFan]

The Dallara is much better looking than that ugly F1 Ferrari car..

But no car is any prettier than this one...

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/car1-1.jpg

Motorola pays 7mil annually for that crappy small unidentifiable logo on the sidepod...

I for one have never been able to figure why they don't demand/want a better looking more identifiable car.....

[Rex Monaco]

Boy, Rex, you sure listed a lot of reasons why we enjoy the excitement of racing.

As usual, you missed the point.

[DanicaFan]

Ken,

Danica's car stands out at the track. In person, its even more awesome. They updated the 2008 car's logo with a white "M" instead of the black one. Im lucky to have one of the side pods of her car from the Kentucky race in 2008 and I had her sign it. :D

It has Motorola all over the car really. I think its a great looking car.

[gloomyDAY]

Ken,

Danica's car stands out at the track. In person, its even more awesome. They updated the 2008 car's logo with a white "M" instead of the black one. Im lucky to have one of the side pods of her car from the Kentucky race in 2008 and I had her sign it. :D

It has Motorola all over the car really. I think its a great looking car.Stop sucking titty!

That car is hideous and your girlfriend is a farce.

[Easy Drifter]

Gloomy: Here I go getting in trouble again.

Your location and the last sentence of your post raise an interesting thought. :D

[indycool]

As usual, you failed to make a coherent one.

[SarahFan]

Ken,

Danica's car stands out at the track. In person, its even more awesome. They updated the 2008 car's logo with a white "M" instead of the black one. Im lucky to have one of the side pods of her car from the Kentucky race in 2008 and I had her sign it. :D

It has Motorola all over the car really. I think its a great looking car.

well D.... you are a little more than biased.... Heck you believe Danica is the favorite for the 500 and will contend for the championship this year


7mil for that little logo doesn't make a lot of sense to me..... but hey it's not my cash......we will see how that deal pans out at seasons end wont we


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/133443931_2b223432e4.jpg?v=0

[SarahFan]

As usual, you failed to make a coherent one.

it was crystal clear to me

[Rex Monaco]

As usual, you failed to make a coherent one.

And as usual, context is what makes it coherent. So go back and read my REPLY in context. You should be able to understand it then.

[anthonyvop]

Racing against a clock is one thing. Racing against one another is a different thing.
So you agree with me!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Boy..I leave you guys alone for 3 days and you spend about 10 posts bickering what each other meant...no wonder readership is slagging....

[garyshell]

Boy..I leave you guys alone for 3 days and you spend about 10 posts bickering what each other meant...no wonder readership is slagging....


It all depends on what the definition of is, is.

Gary

[Gluaistean]

Watch an F1 race sometime.

The tail-fins and front wings make the Dallara look like a sexy beast.

Personally I think the Dallara looks good besides the weird bump in the nose. Not a big deal though. At least it looks different and fast, unlike the numerous European ladder series lookalikes.

You have to be joking or high or both. That heap that runs around the tracks known as a Dallara is the ugliest race car out there. A1GP looks better, so does Superleague, GP2, Formula Renault and F2000.

Exactly which European class does not look fast? And please, compare like with like. No FF comparison.

[Civic]

Have you seen the new Renault? Ugliest formula car in my opinion.

[Jag_Warrior]

Have you seen the new Renault? Ugliest formula car in my opinion.

At first I was OK, but then I threw up in my mouth...

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/picture_free.php/dir/2009ren1/image/XPB_284823_HiRes.jpg-2

[callum122]

Once again I'll state my disgust in Renault's new contender.

For the IRL cars I like the fact they are low to the ground, that is how racing cars should be. Otherwise the rest of the car is average, especially the mid-section. It's too bulky and looks plain crap.

[pits4me]

Have you seen the new Renault? Ugliest formula car in my opinion.

How sweet the sound. Much better than a Dallara school bus (or UPS truck) on steroids.

[-Helix-]

You have to be joking or high or both. That heap that runs around the tracks known as a Dallara is the ugliest race car out there. A1GP looks better, so does Superleague, GP2, Formula Renault and F2000.

Exactly which European class does not look fast? And please, compare like with like. No FF comparison.

Everyone has different opinions and likes. Just because I think the Dallara is tolerable and better looking than most European ladder series including the ones you mentioned doesn't mean I'm joking or high.

I'll take the Dallara over any of these new F1 cars any day.

[Chamoo]

I actually don't mind the Renault. Unfortunately it's slow as a *****.

[Rex Monaco]

I'll take the Dallara over any of these new F1 cars any day.

The Pontiac Aztec had a few fans too.

[garyshell]

The Pontiac Aztec had a few fans too.

Go ahead, name one... just one. ...big ol' grin...


Gary

[Hoop-98]

I don't think ugly is a good term for cars but that's just my opinion, kinda like an ugly locomotive, hey they have a job to do.

What I really don't like are posers, like a Schwinn bicycle with a gas tank and "MX Graphics".

My nominee for the ultimate poser car is the DP-01, but thats just my 2c.

A Dallara Indy Car is a result of the best compromise of the rules, the DP-01 is hey let's make it look racy, since it doesn't have to race anyone...but I do fit better in the Panoz than the Dallara...

If and When we get a new Indy Car it won't have to race any other cars, so like the DP-01 it can be style over function. Not sure that's good..

rh

[coogmaster]

This is all a matter of opinion, and preference.

Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that not one of us will have a choice of what these cars look like, not now, not ever. So we can either live in the past or take what we have and look for the best. I'll do the second.

[indycool]

Well-stated, Hoop. Whenever they change, it'll be same ol', same ol' -- some will like it, some won't, and not necessarily because of its looks.

[anthonyvop]

My nominee for the ultimate poser car is the DP-01, but thats just my 2c.
But yet your ultimate poser car was significantly faster so I guess that makes the Dallara a wannabee.


A Dallara Indy Car is a result of the best compromise of the rules,
You are wrong. The Dallara was designed when the IRL was an all oval series. The Dallara was designed with that in mind. The reason it has a pull-rod front suspension was to lower the frontal area for Ovals.
There was no compromise at all.

Many one make series cars are quite attractive. Not only the Panoz DP-01 but the GP2 car as well as the new F2.
The latest A1GP, Superleague Fund, Swift Mazda Atlantic, Formula BMW, Formula Mazda also are quite attractive and single make series cars.

[Rex Monaco]

Go ahead, name one... just one. ...big ol' grin...


Gary

I wouldn't want to embarrass them any more than they've already been embarrassed. But one was just sold at Barret-Jackson for around 15k. And I thought 3k would have been double what it was actually worth.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I actually don't mind the Renault. Unfortunately it's slow as a *****.

Not when Alonso drives it.

Anyway, to answer the orginial question: basically every F1 car in the seventies were uglier than the Dallara in my opinion.

[Wade91]

well, obveasly the cars today are alot better than they were 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, (and so on..) years ago

[Dr. Krogshöj]

well, obveasly the cars today are alot better than they were 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, (and so on..) years ago

Not necessarily. I think the best looking open wheel cars were those of the sixties. Then the seventies was an era of wild experimentation in aerodynamics that settled down by the eighties when the designs converged and cars were beginning to look similar.

[Hoop-98]

But yet your ultimate poser car was significantly faster so I guess that makes the Dallara a wannabee.


You are wrong. The Dallara was designed when the IRL was an all oval series. The Dallara was designed with that in mind. The reason it has a pull-rod front suspension was to lower the frontal area for Ovals.
There was no compromise at all.

Many one make series cars are quite attractive. Not only the Panoz DP-01 but the GP2 car as well as the new F2.
The latest A1GP, Superleague Fund, Swift Mazda Atlantic, Formula BMW, Formula Mazda also are quite attractive and single make series cars.


fastest dp-01 speed 195ish dallara 235ish?

Compromise for the rules at the time of it's design.

The only difference in road course times is the HP, do the math.

Attractive is in the eye of the beholder, some like function, some like flash...

rh

[Rex Monaco]

Attractive is in the eye of the beholder, some like function, some like flash...

Most people want function and flash. That's why companies spend money making toasters look good. Because at the start of the day, even the cheap ugly toasters will toast your bread.

And did you just compare Dallara oval speeds to DP-01 road course speeds? Or did the Dallar achieve 235 mph on a road course and no one cared?

[Hoop-98]

Most people want function and flash. That's why companies spend money making toasters look good. Because at the start of the day, even the cheap ugly toasters will toast your bread.

And did you just compare Dallara oval speeds to DP-01 road course speeds? Or did the Dallar achieve 235 mph on a road course and no one cared?

That was in response the the "faster" statement, and of course in jest.

The Dallara with 670 BHP is within a few percent of the 750 BHP former champcar, the difference mainly one of HP and not turn speeds.

Looking good and being flashy are two entirely different things IMHO....

You can tell things I don't care about, I don't comment on them on message boards.

Have a nice day ;)




rh

[anthonyvop]

fastest dp-01 speed 195ish dallara 235ish?

Compromise for the rules at the time of it's design.

The only difference in road course times is the HP, do the math.

Attractive is in the eye of the beholder, some like function, some like flash...

rh
Oh Please.

The DP-01 Was significantly faster than the Dallara. Particularly in entry speed and turn-in. Ask anyone who drove both cars.
Comparison times on road course are more than just HP.

[Hoop-98]

Oh Please.

The DP-01 Was significantly faster than the Dallara. Particularly in entry speed and turn-in. Ask anyone who drove both cars.
Comparison times on road course are more than just HP.


If they were significantly faster, why doesn't it show up in section times?

Or for that matter a difference of 4 pct in lap time is huge eh?

At Milwaukee, both running the road course packages, their times were virtually identical, and corner speeds were the same.

I go more by times that what people tell me, just weird that way...

rh

[garyshell]

Oh Please.

The DP-01 Was significantly faster than the Dallara. Particularly in entry speed and turn-in. Ask anyone who drove both cars.
Comparison times on road course are more than just HP.


Oh, this should be good. Are you REALLY going to go up against the man who eats more stats for breakfast than you have in your entire life? Yep, this should be REAL good.

Gary

[garyshell]

If they were significantly faster, why doesn't it show up in section times?

Or for that matter a difference of 4 pct in lap time is huge eh?

At Milwaukee, both running the road course packages, their times were virtually identical, and corner speeds were the same.

I go more by times that what people tell me, just weird that way...

rh

Point, Hoop-98. Score: one-love.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Point, Hoop-98. Score: one-love.

Gary
Only from the free throw line.

Milwaukee is a joke where they just dial in downforce and hang on.

At Homestead road course they almost had to use a calendar to time the difference.

SLAM DUNK!!!!

[indycool]

They both drew a lot for their races at the Homestead road course.

[anthonyvop]

They both drew a lot for their races at the Homestead road course.

Funny....

[Hoop-98]

Only from the free throw line.

Milwaukee is a joke where they just dial in downforce and hang on.

At Homestead road course they almost had to use a calendar to time the difference.

SLAM DUNK!!!!

Can you discuss in terms like "seconds? I know that last year the ICs were 52 or so not sure of any recent times on Champcars.

How do you tell the difference between a 52 and a whatever with a calendar?

Klang

rh

[garyshell]

Only from the free throw line.

Milwaukee is a joke where they just dial in downforce and hang on.

At Homestead road course they almost had to use a calendar to time the difference.

SLAM DUNK!!!!

No specifics whatsoever. Net ball. No score.

Score remains: fifteen - love (sorry I had forgotten my tennis scoring terms in an earlier post).

Gary

[garyshell]

Can you discuss in terms like "seconds? I know that last year the ICs were 52 or so not sure of any recent times on Champcars.

How do you tell the difference between a 52 and a whatever with a calendar?

Klang

rh


Score: thirty - love.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

No specifics whatsoever. Net ball. No score.

Score remains: fifteen - love (sorry I had forgotten my tennis scoring terms in an earlier post).

Gary
4.2 second difference.

[Hoop-98]

4.2 second difference.


Something wrong with times and dates?

rh

[Hoop-98]

4.2 second difference.

December 07

OPEN-WHEEL RACING BRIEFLY REUNITED

After 12 years and several failed attempts by different individuals, the two major open wheel racing series in this country finally got back together.

But it was only for a one-day tire test at Homestead, Fla.

Last Tuesday, the PKV team from Champ Car shared the track with the Indy Racing League's Andretti-Green stable for a Bridgestone/Firestone test.

Oriol Servia and AGR teammates Marco Andretti and Danica Patrick ran together on the 2.3-mile, 11-turn road course inside Homestead-Miami Speedway.

No official times were released but witnesses said Servia's Panoz-Cosworth was about three seconds a lap quicker than AGR's Dallara-Honda, mainly because of the long straightaway.

[Hoop-98]

December 07

OPEN-WHEEL RACING BRIEFLY REUNITED

After 12 years and several failed attempts by different individuals, the two major open wheel racing series in this country finally got back together.

But it was only for a one-day tire test at Homestead, Fla.

Last Tuesday, the PKV team from Champ Car shared the track with the Indy Racing League's Andretti-Green stable for a Bridgestone/Firestone test.

Oriol Servia and AGR teammates Marco Andretti and Danica Patrick ran together on the 2.3-mile, 11-turn road course inside Homestead-Miami Speedway.

No official times were released but witnesses said Servia's Panoz-Cosworth was about three seconds a lap quicker than AGR's Dallara-Honda, mainly because of the long straightaway.

I know in 07 at Sebring the Panoz was 1.4 quicker, I'd guess that takes a dang fast calendar to time that.....

The Panoz is Quicker, no doubt, has about 10 pct more downforce because tunnel limits were removed and 75 more HP.

Be interesting to see LB with the Indys having the softer tires to run, I think they will be a couple seconds slower or about 3pct.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the Panoz DP-01 was a faster car period. That said, it seems the Dallara is a lot closer than some would like. One thing is for sure...I don't argue stats with Hoop. NOT wise...

[nigelred5]

Lap times still dont' change the fact that more people find the dallara a butt effin ugly race car than not.

[indycool]

Maybe more people on this forum.........a minor number compared to those in the stands and an on TV.

[Rex Monaco]

Maybe more people on this forum.........a minor number compared to those in the stands and an on TV.

Since attendance and TV ratings aren't anything that even the yeasayers are excited about, it would seem that improving the look of the car could only help put more people in the stands and increase the TV ratings. And that improvement could be done now.

[indycool]

Sure did for the DP-01 and the Car of Tomorrow, Rex.

[Rex Monaco]

Oh.

[Rex Monaco]

Sure did for the DP-01 and the Car of Tomorrow, Rex.

And now who's being the naysayer?

Name one passenger car for sale in America today that looks the same as it did in 1997?

Name one major racing series in the world, who's cars look the same as they did on 1997?

Name one business in the world that didn't have a plan in place to change their newly introduced product in 10 years?

Do you see the problem here?

And why can't the nose cone be changed? Or the engine cowl? Or the side pods?

[indycool]

1.Can't
2 Can't.
3. Practically every company in the world has plans that can change radically iin 10 years, and options off those plans, and changes tabled to those plans, and what the economy is, and how sales of the product in Nairobi are going to be in 10 years.
4. No.
5. Why?

[SportscarBruce]

I was thinking about how terrible the IRL cars look and sound, it it occured to me that we are probably at an all time low in American formula car racing.

I believe the current IRL car to be the ugliest formula car ever created. What do you guys think? Are there worse cars out there? How about posting a link.

Just keep in mind, this is what your up against.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/02xQb9Y7dndFO

http://d.yimg.com/hb/xp/afp/20090223/11/4285725029-honda-says-f1-sale-talks-difficult.jpg

Ugliest thing in formula cars. Looks like something you find scrambling from the light after uplifting a rock.,

[Hoop-98]

I really liked the Reynards, Swifts, Lolas, but I think the DP-01 looked kinda comical, just my opinion of course.

I tend to look at details, read engineering documents available, and of course measure segment times and when available look at telemetry.

When someone says something like pullrods do this and pushrods do this I get a bit perplexed because they are emotional ill informed descriptions of how designs evolve and change due to rules, times, etc.

The truth on these objective subjects are well understood in the engineering community and shouldn't be so emotional.

All that said, I pretty much believe thata the "ugly car" "slow" guys here would have had no problem with the INDY car if it had evolved from the CART side. Actually it has much more in common with a 94 Indy Car from any performance metric than the DP-01.

But the last paragraph is my opinion, not a fact.

When someone tells me a car is remarkably slow on turn in, I want data, not opinion, so I can better understand why.

jm2c

rh

[Rex Monaco]

...would have had no problem with the INDY car if it had evolved from the CART side.

I'd have no problem with the car if it had evolved period. Even if it was still ugly.

But this is the only racing series running a car that is also eligible for vintage racing!

[Hoop-98]

I'd have no problem with the car if it had evolved period. Even if it was still ugly.

But this is the only racing series running a car that is also eligible for vintage racing!

See Rex, that is the problem I have with posts like yours, all yack, no shack, just repeating your opinion with more hyperbole...

Care to break the mold, or just more oh yeah well your mom wears...



rh

[Rex Monaco]

...just repeating your opinion with more hyperbole...

So it's just an opinion that this car has not evolved over the last 10 years??

And you want ME to post something more intelligent? That's pretty funny!

[SportscarBruce]

I'd have no problem with the car if it had evolved period. Even if it was still ugly.

But this is the only racing series running a car that is also eligible for vintage racing!

Now be fair Rex. If given the option there isn't a chance any team or driver would select a COT over the previous version. No bouncing off the bumpstops or exploding tires. A newer, clean sheet design isn't always better (in the case of Brian & Co especially so).

OTOH I'm willing to wager given the chance not just the CCWS crossover teams would have at least taken the opportunity to test the DP01 on both ovals and road courses. There were lots of favorable comments at the final CC race in Long Beach.

[Rex Monaco]

Now be fair Rex. If given the option there isn't a chance any team or driver would select a COT over the previous version. No bouncing off the bumpstops or exploding tires. A newer, clean sheet design isn't always better (in the case of Brian & Co especially so).

Evolve = a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage (especially a more advanced or mature stage).

The CoT might be considered an evolutionary design as it (debatedly) improved upon the existing architecture. But it was a replacment for a car that had already been evolving over the years.

The last car was not a race car which was locked into place for 10+ years. And the CoT will not be locked into place either. It will evolve as they attempt to address it's short commings.

There has simply been no evolution of the IRL car for 10 years. Everything is pretty much as it was 10 years ago. No other top rung racing series is using a car this old.

And despite the claim that some people think this is just hyperbole, it is eligble for Vintage racing due to it's age. Paint it up like Tony Stewarts car and it's another historic formula type race car in that group.

[SportscarBruce]

Evolve = a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage (especially a more advanced or mature stage).

The CoT might be considered an evolutionary design as it (debatedly) improved upon the existing architecture. But it was a replacment for a car that had already been evolving over the years.

The last car was not a race car which was locked into place for 10+ years. And the CoT will not be locked into place either. It will evolve as they attempt to address it's short commings.

There has simply been no evolution of the IRL car for 10 years. Everything is pretty much as it was 10 years ago. No other top rung racing series is using a car this old.

And despite the claim that some people think this is just hyperbole, it is eligble for Vintage racing due to it's age. Paint it up like Tony Stewarts car and it's another historic formula type race car in that group.

There's a new car on the way, in case you haven't heard.

[Rex Monaco]

There's a new car on the way, in case you haven't heard.

And I can't wait for 2013, can you? Only 4 more seasons left before Indycar finally enters the 21st century! And it only misses the 100th anniversary of the Indy 500 by 2 years!

And the 100th anniversary of the speedway wasn't something that a historian just unearthed in a secret archive last year. It's been 100 years in the making and anyone with a free calendar from UPS could see it coming.

It's good there is a new car being planned and that there will likely be some engine competition. But this need didn't just develop overnight when the series unified. The engine competition was needed the moment that Toyota left. And the chassis replacement should have been in the planning stages almost as soon as the new one was introduced.

So where was the IRL planning 10 years ago? 5 years ago? Please don't tell me that all this planning just started 1 year ago. Because it sure looks that way from here.

[-Helix-]

The Pontiac Aztec had a few fans too.

And NASCAR has a LOT. Guess those bricks are better looking than Indycars huh?

[SportscarBruce]

And NASCAR has a LOT. Guess those bricks are better looking than Indycars huh?

LOL. Its pretty much a given the cars in NASCAR are ancillary to the weekly driver soap opera that draws them there.

[Rex Monaco]

And NASCAR has a LOT. Guess those bricks are better looking than Indycars huh?

In it's history, NASCAR has never been about having sexy car's. Open wheeled racing and sports car racing are the racing genre's that have been known for having sexy car's.

That said, I think that the Grand-Am cars are uglier than the CoT. And I think that the Grand-Am cars are on par with the Dallara in their homliness.

[Rex Monaco]

LOL. Its pretty much a given the cars in NASCAR are ancillary to the weekly driver soap opera that draws them there.

And with Indycar stuck with homely spec cars, the IRL is pimping out people out in hopes of drawing a few people to watch the series.

The efforts with Danica are well known. But the attempt to pimp Helio backfired when his legal issues made him more famous in the tabloids than his Dancing with the Stars to draw some female fans to the IRL tour.

[indycool]

And just how is the IRL "pimping out" people?

[Rex Monaco]

And just how is the IRL "pimping out" people?

How is NASCAR a soap opera anymore than IRL was last year with it's Danica temper tantrums culminating with a direct from chapter 10 of the "Reality Show Guide for Boosting your Ratings" cat fight with Milka?

Rather than taking offense at the phrase "pimping out", you should be pointing out to me that this is the IRL being pro-active in it's public relations.

In other words, this should be in your 'what is the IRL doing positive' column.

[indycool]

I suppose you're trying to say that the IRL tells Danica to throw temper tantrums or go after Milka. You're really stretching and groping to knock the IRL with that.

[Rex Monaco]

I suppose you're trying to say that the IRL tells Danica to throw temper tantrums or go after Milka. You're really stretching and groping to knock the IRL with that.

Was it anymore a stretch than the post I was responding too? At least I provided some circumstantial evidence to support my claims!


Its pretty much a given the cars in NASCAR are ancillary to the weekly driver soap opera that draws them there.

[Rex Monaco]

I suppose you're trying to say that the IRL tells Danica to throw temper tantrums or go after Milka. You're really stretching and groping to knock the IRL with that.

And if the IRL was brilliant enough to orchestrate the Danica temper tantrums and/or the Milka cat fight, I would not consider that a knock against the IRL. I'd consider that the type of thing they need to do to get people watching.

Hate him or not, the cat fight between the White House and Rush Limbaugh has helped Rush in his ratings.

And The View has high ratings when one of their hosts is in a running fued with someone.

AJ Foyt unleashed, should be the new mantra of the IRL. You want sanitized family safe racing? Then watch NASCAR. You want man and machine against man and machine. Then watch the IRL stars fight it out on the track and in the pits.

[indycool]

Well, I'll agree that those things add a little snap to the program but I hardly think the IRL encourages it or really has anything to do with it. Although it got publicity all over the place, I don't think the IRL told A.J. to knock Luyendyk into a flower pot in Victory Lane in Texas a few years ago.

[Rex Monaco]

Well, I'll agree that those things add a little snap to the program but I hardly think the IRL encourages it or really has anything to do with it. Although it got publicity all over the place, I don't think the IRL told A.J. to knock Luyendyk into a flower pot in Victory Lane in Texas a few years ago.

They shouldn't encourage it. But they shouldn't discourage it either.

If a fight breaks out in the pits, then let a few punches get landed before an official breaks it up. No fines and no penalties for showing emotion off track.

We don't want people beating their girlfriends/boyfriends or shooting people at parties. But a little drama in the pits or paddock is what will bring casual viewers to the TV set next week.

[indycool]

I don't think the IRL encourages or discourages it any more or less than any oither sport, or controls the actions of those who do more or less than any other sport.

[Rex Monaco]

I don't think the IRL encourages or discourages it any more or less than any oither sport, or controls the actions of those who do more or less than any other sport.

I can't say that I agree any more or any less with this, than any other person who may or may not be reading this post.

[SportscarBruce]

And if the IRL was brilliant enough to orchestrate the Danica temper tantrums and/or the Milka cat fight, I would not consider that a knock against the IRL. I'd consider that the type of thing they need to do to get people watching.

Hate him or not, the cat fight between the White House and Rush Limbaugh has helped Rush in his ratings.

And The View has high ratings when one of their hosts is in a running fued with someone.

AJ Foyt unleashed, should be the new mantra of the IRL. You want sanitized family safe racing? Then watch NASCAR. You want man and machine against man and machine. Then watch the IRL stars fight it out on the track and in the pits.

4th paragraph demands correction, unless sanitized family behavior involves fights in the kitchen and intentionally crashing into cousin Earl.

[Rex Monaco]

4th paragraph demands correction, unless sanitized family behavior involves fights in the kitchen and intentionally crashing into cousin Earl.

Change the name and this could be considered racist. So why would it not be considered bigotry as it reads now?

Just asking...

[Mark in Oshawa]

I suppose you're trying to say that the IRL tells Danica to throw temper tantrums or go after Milka. You're really stretching and groping to knock the IRL with that.

I agree. I don't think anyone tells Danica anything. One only has to hear her chewing on a crew chief when the car isn't right to know that Danica isn't told what to do, she does the ordering.....