The Myth Of "race"

[agwiii]

Ideas of "race" are centuries old. The instinctive wariness of "strangers" and "foreigners" is as old as the Human Race itself. The fear and loathing of The Other and Otherness is the underlying basis of racism or racialism.
It was not until the 19th Century that attempts to systematize and categorize "racial divisions" were made based on an expanding curiosity with ethnology and physical anthrology.

The general belief was that all individuals could be "assigned unambigously" to a specific "racial group," that these specific "racial groupings" did not only explain discernible, visible physical characteristics but also social and cultural differences between geographically distinct peoples.

This theory of "race" as a rigid scientific fact has been long abandoned by most scientists.

But the terms of "racial classification" still persist, such as Caucasian, Mongoloid, Malayan, Ethiopian, and American as theorized by early 19th Century anthropologists like Johann Friedrich Blumenbach {1752-1840}. Blumenbach based his theory on cranial measurements!

Since Blumenbach's time, this classification system has been much modified and there are many such "racial classification systems." One such system only recognizes Caucasian, Mongoloid and Negroid.

Ideas of "racial superiority" and "social Darwinism" espoused by Joseph Arthur Gobineau {1816-82} heavily influenced the Nazi ideology of the 1930's. Gobineau is best known for his theories of "racial superiority," "racial purity," and his claim of the existence of a hierarchy of "races," at the pinnacle of which was the "Aryan Race." Gobineau theorized that "Aryan Culture and Civilization" _degenerated_ when its "pure" members _inter-breed_ with the "Black and Yellow Races," which he classed as "inferior."

Gobineau's theories have been used to give "scientific justifications" to attitudes, viewpoints, and social policies/agendas of discrimination, segregation, exploitation, slavery, and genocide.

Two other thinkers who espoused similar theories were Oswald Spengler and Herbert Spencer. There were also popularizers of "eugenics," who actively preached the racism, classism, and xenophobia that these theories seemed to validate. Eugenicists believed and still believe that hereditary improvement of the human race can be done by artificial/controlled selective breeding and - some extreme eugenicists - actually espoused euthanesia of the handicapped, the criminal and "inferior racial types."

The geneticists and eugenists of this earlier era were unwilling or unable to distinguish folk wisdom from scientific knowledge.

Such theories of "race," such as the common modern day racialist theories that assert a biological connexion between "racial type" and intelligence, are now throughly discredited as scientific fact and now are considered "pseudo-scientific fringe science."

Scientifically, it is now accepted that there are obvious _sub-divisions_ of the human _species_, but it is also very clear now that genetic variation between individuals of the same "race" can be as great as that of members of "other" so-call "races."

When scientists examined human genetic inheritance in minute detail, they found that inherited traits do not remain within any particular group, thus debunking the idea of homogeneous "racial groupings" and of "race classification systems."

Scientist now say that physical characteristics many people associate with "race" are the end result of adaptations to climate, diet, and the natural selection of sexual attraction.

Racial groups are more alike than different in terms of biologically characteristics - in another words, there is only one race, the human race (but within that race there are a multitude of subspecies - and humans to be so mixed _and_ numerous that it defies any clear-cut classification.

[EuroTroll]

Sorry, given your track record, I can't be bothered to read such a long post. But my opinion is that the "motor race" is not a myth at all! It happens almost every weekend, it really does.

[agwiii]

Sorry, given your track record, I can't be bothered to read such a long post. But my opinion is that the "motor race" is not a myth at all! It happens almost every weekend, it really does.

Given your track record, I appreciate your candor in admitting you have nothing to contribute.

[EuroTroll]

You're most welcome. ;) You know I've always tried to be honest with you. ;)

[race aficionado]

Hey! I'm no Myth! I'm for real . . . . :hmh:


ooops,


never mind :p :


:s mokin:

[Sleeper]

I have always judged a person on their mental disposition, personality and, to a lesser extent, their inteligence, but never on their skin colour and bone structure. I feel very sorry fr anyone that believes that it is such shallow charecteristics that define people.

[Mark]

Scientist now say that physical characteristics many people associate with "race" are the end result of adaptations to climate, diet, and the natural selection of sexual attraction.

Racial groups are more alike than different in terms of biologically characteristics - in another words, there is only one race, the human race (but within that race there are a multitude of subspecies - and humans to be so mixed _and_ numerous that it defies any clear-cut classification.

I must admit I was worried I'd have to ban you when I started reading this post. However your conclusions are spot on :)

We all do come from Africa after all, and those of us who look different from Africans of today are the result of thousands of years of a living in a different climate, and that's no different to the variations you see in any other animal living in different parts of the world.

[Eki]

We all do come from Africa after all, and those of us who look different from Africans of today are the result of thousands of years of a living in a different climate, and that's no different to the variations you see in any other animal living in different parts of the world.
True. I think the example photos of metrically identical racial types adapted to different climates on this site illustrates that well:

http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/skincolor.html

[Knock-on]

I must admit I was worried I'd have to ban you when I started reading this post. However your conclusions are spot on :)

We all do come from Africa after all, and those of us who look different from Africans of today are the result of thousands of years of a living in a different climate, and that's no different to the variations you see in any other animal living in different parts of the world.

I don't know that they are Agwiii's conclusions or someone else that happens to frequent a BDSM site ;)

http://alt.com/p/blog.cgi?who=UmFuZG9tSVanqvPaZHwecgaBbkC_BRRvT0Dfw 1rv7s0lbSyotDeGe_HS3OdqYBav0vBKmqsRCd2IHF3XdflS9Gf hBEkRGe25ZWloJsFOnALE%2FmdWvAOznFHEthhCt03KgA77y%2 Fx8U1oU2ZwdaHp8x1gx8erVeDiYAkG2MoTngPDhdGRsidVMmnU r7pXEkoOaf%2FbvzXR1q_I-&qid=126965&lang=english&group_id=7862&default_site=bdsm&action=view_blog_post&ANON_CONFIRM=TRUE

So Agwiii, did you just plagiarise it or are you in fact, Gooeyfruitbat :D

[TOgoFASTER]

^ lol

[agwiii]

I must admit I was worried I'd have to ban you when I started reading this post. However your conclusions are spot on :)


Thanks. I hope we can now terminate thought of racism on this forum.

[Knock-on]

^ lol

If you've ever read the DC, DH thread, you will be laughing your socks off :laugh:

The piece itself is well written but hardly ground breaking in it's observations. Racial classification has evolved from a scientific grouping to a socio-political and geographical grouping.

Access to global transport has eroded most bastions of differentiation and the Nazi ideals of a master race would be impractical if not impossibly in today's environment.

What constituted race and understanding of racial awareness and opinion is a much more interesting subject.

Whether you define race by colour, commonly associated with racism, or race by geographical boundaries, more often linked to patriotism, defines how accepted your view is to public opinion.

I made what can legitimately be described as a hugely racist post in the 6 Nations thread. I took the Mickey out of the Scots (although I'm 1/2 Scottish), the French, the Welsh etc for nothing other than their Geographical Race. It mattered not what their ethnic background was but that they were not English. And in the World Cup, I will do the same to the Aussies, the Kiwi's, the South Africans etc.

Now, is there any malice in this sort of Racism? I would argue vehemently that there was not as this sort of ribbing is accepted as lighthearted and indeed, affectionate. You get an Aussie and a Pom (ohhhh, racist term) in a bar and they will take the pee out of each other remorselessly until they slide under the table in a drunken heap knowing they've had a great night and made a friend. Yet, it is racism.

No, what we call racism today in the West is different. It is meant with spite and animosity and usually is directed towards pigmentation rather than race. Two Englishmen can attack each other for no other reason than skin colour. The Black man could be 3rd generation English and the White man descendant of Irish and Spanish parents but the motivation would be considered a racist one over skin colour.

Now, I say that in the West, we usually define Race as colour but that is not always so. Other cultures are more specific about Race Hate. The one that springs to mind is India and Pakistan. There is great animosity and hate between factions of these countries.

We also need to appreciate that race hate crimes has adopted religious intolerance. Throughout history, we have not been too good at religious tolerance in this country and it is now perceived that some religions are classed as a race for the ignorant. The term 'effing Paki is replaced by Muslim for your pure bred racist in this country. As traditional colour race lessens, so cultural, religious and geographical prejudices overtake them. From Mods and Rockers, we now have Africans against Muslims.

What it all boils down to is not peoples race but their difference. Ignorance, preconceptions and prejudice are still as key today but as their impact is mitigated away from the traditional Colour hate of Black Vs White, it reinvents itself with a new set of intolerances and hateful venom.

Don't be scared of what it's easy to class as racism, but is in reality just hate. Confront it in all it's guises and address it. Don't be scared to be labeled a racist for pointing it out or asking questions that are awkward because that just drives it undercover. Lets show the ignorant that yes, we are all different, but that is a positive thing, not something we need to shy away from.

Racism is something that is meant. Something spiteful and hurtful, yet sometimes people fail to ask questions or make observations because of the fear of being labeled racist.

A quick scenario. I am sometimes asked why my skin and features are quite
dark for an Englishman. I have quite olive skin, especially in summer, and people think I have some mediterranean in me. That is not a Racist question is it in a similar way as I could ask if someone with ginger hair is from Ireland or Scotland which is somewhat of a characteristic of those countries.

However, if I went up to someone and said, as I have done before, "You look Nigerian because of your colour", does this constitute as racism? I think quite a few people would think that I'm just seeing the colour and am therefore being racist. What if I then add that a lot of my extended family are from Nigeria and I am very used to the particular pigmentation and looks that is particular to that country. Is it racist now?

Racism isn't a mistake. If you think someone is racist by mistake, then I would suggest it's just ignorance. There is nothing wrong with ignorance as long as we learn from it. Racism is conscious and purposeful, powerful and tangible. That's the bit we need to get to grips with.

[Knock-on]

I don't know that they are Agwiii's conclusions or someone else that happens to frequent a BDSM site ;)

http://alt.com/p/blog.cgi?who=UmFuZG9tSVanqvPaZHwecgaBbkC_BRRvT0Dfw 1rv7s0lbSyotDeGe_HS3OdqYBav0vBKmqsRCd2IHF3XdflS9Gf hBEkRGe25ZWloJsFOnALE%2FmdWvAOznFHEthhCt03KgA77y%2 Fx8U1oU2ZwdaHp8x1gx8erVeDiYAkG2MoTngPDhdGRsidVMmnU r7pXEkoOaf%2FbvzXR1q_I-&qid=126965&lang=english&group_id=7862&default_site=bdsm&action=view_blog_post&ANON_CONFIRM=TRUE

So Agwiii, did you just plagiarise it or are you in fact, Gooeyfruitbat :D

I'm sorry if you're reading this and it doesn't make sense.

There was a link to an adult site for "alternative" practices that holds the piece that Agwiii had quoted at the beginning of this thread.


Mark has quite rightly removed the link to prove this as it was a link directly to the site. However, suffice to say it was valid ;)

Sorry Mark, point taken.

[agwiii]

I'm sorry if you're reading this and it doesn't make sense. There was a link to an adult site for "alternative" practices that holds the piece that Agwiii had quoted at the beginning of this thread. Mark has quite rightly removed the link to prove this as it was a link directly to the site. However, suffice to say it was valid ;) Sorry Mark, point taken.

You display great taste, judgement and malice by your posting a link to an X-Rated site here - on a family forum.

[Mark]

The issue has been dealt with by myself. Case closed.

[Knock-on]

You display great taste, judgement and malice by your posting a link to an X-Rated site here - on a family forum.


You do the same by quoting from that site :p :

Or did you get the piece from somewhere else and who is the "real" author :laugh:

Anyway, the piece was valid in it's own right and hopefully will start a discussion that is meaningful unlike your comments where you hope that this will terminate thoughts of racism on this forum. Why do we need to do that? Isn't it a valid discussion point?

As for my taste, judgement and malice. :laugh: I'm fully at ease with it. I just took a paragraph of the text you posted as your own and fed it into Google. The adult site was what it brought up.

Oh, the irony ;)

[Knock-on]

The issue has been dealt with by myself. Case closed.

Sorry Mark, didn't see this until after I posted.

Back to the subject then.

KO

[agwiii]

You do the same by quoting from that site.

Quoting from that site? PROVE IT!

The fact is, that that YOU posted an X-RATED link on this family forum. However, as forum toady, you get away with breaking rules. Nice work.

[agwiii]

The issue has been dealt with by myself. Case closed.

Thank you, Mark. I would like to ask you a question for clarification and understanding. What is the forum's position about posting x-rated links? Thanks in advance!

[race aficionado]

- be assured, - KO will be mowing Marks lawn and cleaning his swimming pool for the next couple of months for having committed such hideous forum etiquette crime. :o

And Agwiii, I can understand why you didn't post a link to your opening post but for the next time, without showing the link, let us know that it was a post from a link that had that interesting comment but that it also had others that were not suitable for my son to see, - that way Knockie wouldn't have had to mention the link - Bad boy Knocks! :mad: - and our Valve Bounce would have not chimed in with "LINK PLEASE!!!!"



now let me go back to that link . . . .

:s mokin:

[Knock-on]

- be assured, - KO will be mowing Marks lawn and cleaning his swimming pool for the next couple of months for having committed such hideous forum etiquette crime. :o

And Agwiii, I can understand why you didn't post a link to your opening post but for the next time, without showing the link, let us know that it was a post from a link that had that interesting comment but that it also had others that were not suitable for my son to see, - that way Knockie wouldn't have had to mention the link - Bad boy Knocks! :mad: - and our Valve Bounce would have not chimed in with "LINK PLEASE!!!!"



now let me go back to that link . . . .

:s mokin:

You're a sick puppy Race. :laugh: And I'm sure VB can figure out how to get to it on his own this time :laugh:

However, I had a little PM from a particular person calling me sick and disturbed and of having no ethical limits.

Part of it I should imagine is to do with the link to the original piece of this thread but ignoring my morality, the other half refers directly to my post above that attempt to expand this topic as I think it richly deserves. (No, not the topic of where people surf but the racism one )

What is racism today and is national banter actually racist and if it is, is it a sort of racism that can be considered possibly healthy. Do you pull a friends leg some times in what is a joking manner and if so, would you do it to a complete stranger. One is jest but the other would be offensive yet they could constitute the same act.

I suppose what I'm saying is does racism need intent to commit offense?

[agwiii]

- be assured, - KO will be mowing Marks lawn and cleaning his swimming pool for the next couple of months for having committed such hideous forum etiquette crime. :o

In the words of Chris Noth, Abso****inglutely.

[race aficionado]

. . . . I suppose what I'm saying is does racism need intent to commit offense?

Racism is a deep and ingrained painful reality.
I was born and raised in Colombia and was brought up with constant reminders that we were to respect others that were physically different than ourselves.
As is customary even in middle class house holds, we had live in maids that cooked, washed our clothes and kept our homes clean.
Many of these maids were of African descent, native Colombians, and they were the only "black" people that I knew.

When I came to the US, it was a treat for me to finally meet other blacks, or African Americans, as they are called here. They were fellow workers and it was an eye opener to realize how racism was alive and well in this country.

But more eye opening was the fact that some of my friends, that were raised in Colombia and were now living here and considered themselves non racists, realized that it was engrained in them subconsciously because of their upbringing and it freaked them out.

Any word that is used to degrade another human being because of his race, color or birthplace is bad - and I, a person that believes that everything in this universe of ours is energy, sees these degrading names as destructive energy.

not a good thing.

Any jokes that may be said in friendly confines are still in my opinion, unnecessary. - and not funny really.

It all goes back to insecurity and fear, the great destructive combo of this age and every age.

peace

:s mokin:

[vanillagirl85]

I'm actually just learning about the history of how the "white" category was created in America. It used to be that only people who descended from western European nations were "white," and Mediterraneans, Eastern Europeans, and Jews weren't. Anyone who was "non-white" was hierarchically below anyone who was. The label "white" now sort of means "standard" or "regular," and anything else is labelled as an "other."

[Eki]

I'm actually just learning about the history of how the "white" category was created in America. It used to be that only people who descended from western European nations were "white," and Mediterraneans, Eastern Europeans, and Jews weren't. Anyone who was "non-white" was hierarchically below anyone who was. The label "white" now sort of means "standard" or "regular," and anything else is labelled as an "other."
Yes, I've heard that Finns weren't considered "white" in America and that there were saloons who had a "no Indians or Finns" policy.

[Knock-on]

Racism is a deep and ingrained painful reality.
I was born and raised in Colombia and was brought up with constant reminders that we were to respect others that were physically different than ourselves.
As is customary even in middle class house holds, we had live in maids that cooked, washed our clothes and kept our homes clean.
Many of these maids were of African descent, native Colombians, and they were the only "black" people that I knew.

When I came to the US, it was a treat for me to finally meet other blacks, or African Americans, as they are called here. They were fellow workers and it was an eye opener to realize how racism was alive and well in this country.

But more eye opening was the fact that some of my friends, that were raised in Colombia and were now living here and considered themselves non racists, realized that it was engrained in them subconsciously because of their upbringing and it freaked them out.

Any word that is used to degrade another human being because of his race, color or birthplace is bad - and I, a person that believes that everything in this universe of ours is energy, sees these degrading names as destructive energy.

not a good thing.

Any jokes that may be said in friendly confines are still in my opinion, unnecessary. - and not funny really.

It all goes back to insecurity and fear, the great destructive combo of this age and every age.

peace

:s mokin:

RA

That is some heavy sh!t to lay on me at this time of night. Hells bells boy, that is turning my grey matter.

I know that I can take the mickey out of the Aussies and it has no connotations but do others feel the same way?


You know you are my bud but can you honestly separate honesty for history.

I need to think......

[vanillagirl85]

Yes, I've heard that Finns weren't considered "white" in America and that there were saloons who had a "no Indians or Finns" policy.

wow, it just seems so crazy to me to lump Indians and Finns into the same group. Then again, it's ultimately pretty silly to lump anyone into some sort of "racial" group. Or maybe a better way to put that would be: it's silly to divide people into any sort of racial group.

[Eki]

wow, it just seems so crazy to me to lump Indians and Finns into the same group. Then again, it's ultimately pretty silly to lump anyone into some sort of "racial" group. Or maybe a better way to put that would be: it's silly to divide people into any sort of racial group.
According to some 19th century theoreticians who probably hadn't even seen a Finn, Finns were a Mongolian race:

http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article297ce.htm

"As regards physical structure, the Finns are, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, "a strong, hardy race, of low stature, with almost round head, low forehead, flat features, prominent cheek bones, eyes mostly grey and oblique, short and flat nose, protruding mouth, thick lips, neck very full and strong; - complexion also somewhat brown." In this characterization of the Finns it is noticeable that the theory of Mongolinism undoubtedly possesses the mind of the writer, as he concludes that these "characteristics they have in common with the socalled Mongolian race." Prof. R. Tigerstedt, a noted Finnish physiologist, gives the figures regarding the height of different European races.

These figures represent averages as shown by the conscription statistics of the respective countries. According to this study the Finns are not of low stature but belong among the tallest people of Europe. The official publication of Finland proves as much. It states that "the people of Finland are strong and comparatively tall". It further says concerning other physical features that "the majority are fair", and "about 78 % of the people are blue-eyed and about 57 % are light-haired".6 We are inclined, on the basis of our personal knowledge of the matter, to agree with the latter opinion."

[TOgoFASTER]

[quote="Knock-on

So Agwiii, did you just plagiarise it or are you in fact, Gooeyfruitbat :D [/QUOTE"]


No comment was intended here other than in reference to Gooeyfruitbat.
:D

[Knock-on]

No comment was intended here other than in reference to Gooeyfruitbat.
:D

I'm sure Goodyfruitbat is a great bloke.

Unlike our resident Troll.

(Pass the whip someone)

[vanillagirl85]

RA

That is some heavy sh!t to lay on me at this time of night. Hells bells boy, that is turning my grey matter.

I know that I can take the mickey out of the Aussies and it has no connotations but do others feel the same way?


You know you are my bud but can you honestly separate honesty for history.

I need to think......

I think amongst friends you can talk s--t to each other and have it be "hate speech" (or whatever you want to call it). I'm female and part Asian, and I don't mind my girlfriends throwing in a few "me so horny" jokes every now and then. It's especially funny in crowded restaurants, when people around us overhear and look horrified.

That said, no one here is allowed to say anything of the sort to me. Now to recap my rate: sucky f--ky two dolla.

[race aficionado]

RA

That is some heavy sh!t to lay on me at this time of night. Hells bells boy, that is turning my grey matter.

I know that I can take the mickey out of the Aussies and it has no connotations but do others feel the same way?


You know you are my bud but can you honestly separate honesty for history.

I need to think......

OK Knocks, no need to think.
I think there is nothing wrong with laying it out on them Aussies. :p :

What I do know is that we both agree on the "racism sucks" part - what I am more uptight about is those "jokes" that I don't consider (always)* funny. I realize that yes, sometimes, depending on how it's said (the energy with which it is said) makes all the difference.
Here in NY for example, in Manhattan to be more precise, we like to make fun of our neighbor across the river, New Jersey, I don't know why, but since I've been here, it what people do - but it's lighthearted and in jest.

My "uptightness" with the racist and ethnic jokes comes from my upbringing where those jokes most of the times had that undercurrent of venom and spite - like: "look how funny this is but boy do I mean it."

Again, it's all in the way you fool around.

As a native Colombian, the drug dealing jokes and stereotypes got old real fast, specially when you knew that it was a minority that was involved in dealing and that a lot of suffering was being caused both in Colombia and wherever the drugs were being consumed.

So yes, I am uptight type of guy when it comes to those jokes but just look at my background. I wish I could be more detached and relaxed but the problem I have is that I don't have any Aussie fiends to help me loosen up
:D

OK Button boy, I'm done with my ranting . . . . and btw, do you still have your shoes on?

peace,

race

:s mokin:

[Knock-on]

OK Knocks, no need to think.
I think there is nothing wrong with laying it out on them Aussies. :p :

What I do know is that we both agree on the "racism sucks" part - what I am more uptight about is those "jokes" that I don't consider (always)* funny. I realize that yes, sometimes, depending on how it's said (the energy with which it is said) makes all the difference.
Here in NY for example, in Manhattan to be more precise, we like to make fun of our neighbor across the river, New Jersey, I don't know why, but since I've been here, it what people do - but it's lighthearted and in jest.

My "uptightness" with the racist and ethnic jokes comes from my upbringing where those jokes most of the times had that undercurrent of venom and spite - like: "look how funny this is but boy do I mean it."

Again, it's all in the way you fool around.

As a native Colombian, the drug dealing jokes and stereotypes got old real fast, specially when you knew that it was a minority that was involved in dealing and that a lot of suffering was being caused both in Colombia and wherever the drugs were being consumed.

So yes, I am uptight type of guy when it comes to those jokes but just look at my background. I wish I could be more detached and relaxed but the problem I have is that I don't have any Aussie fiends to help me loosen up
:D

OK Button boy, I'm done with my ranting . . . . and btw, do you still have your shoes on?

peace,

race

:s mokin:

I remember the party the night (morning) before and I remember sitting next to Storm and Mrs S.

What I don't remember is how I walked about 2 miles from the tent, half way around Oulton Park, across gravel and rubble, with no shoes or shirt on.

Good day, all in all, but the walk back was rather painful :/

Anyway, the racism thing is rather a moot point. We all know when the anger or intent to offend is there.

However, the humour part is more stereotyping than anything else. You mention Colombia, you think of Drugs. You mention England, you think of Cockney Geezers. You mention Liverpool and you've probably already lost your hub caps.

It's just association and I don't think there's any malice in it; just a boring repetition perhaps.

[BDunnell]

Anyway, the racism thing is rather a moot point. We all know when the anger or intent to offend is there.

However, the humour part is more stereotyping than anything else. You mention Colombia, you think of Drugs. You mention England, you think of Cockney Geezers. You mention Liverpool and you've probably already lost your hub caps.

It's just association and I don't think there's any malice in it; just a boring repetition perhaps.

Where it does get problematic, in my opinion, is with references to 'all Germans being Nazis' and suchlike. When I had hair to cut, I once walked out of a hairdresser's salon with the cut half done in protest at the stupid remarks being made by the hairdresser along those lines.

[Knock-on]

Where it does get problematic, in my opinion, is with references to 'all Germans being Nazis' and suchlike. When I had hair to cut, I once walked out of a hairdresser's salon with the cut half done in protest at the stupid remarks being made by the hairdresser along those lines.

Again, it's not problematic but ignorance and stupidity.

These people need to know that it's not acceptable to say such things. Your action might be laughed off but gradually, as it keeps being addressed, so their behaviour and attitude will change.

Quite often, we might not think we're causing offence but will be unaware unless we're informed. The problematic ones are the ones that continue regardless.

[Eki]

You mention England, you think of Cockney Geezers.
Really? I think of oily oaf.

[Knock-on]

Really? I think of oily oaf.

And the difference is.....

:D

[Eki]

I suddenly realized where the saying "Close your eyes and think of England" comes from. I can see how that image can really have a negative impact on sex drive.

[Knock-on]

I suddenly realized where the saying "Close your eyes and think of England" comes from. I can see how that image can really have a negative impact on sex drive.

If you close your eyes and see Oily, I suggest it would be the last time you ever indulge in carnal pleasure.

Enough to put anyone off for life!!!

[agwiii]

I suddenly realized where the saying "Close your eyes and think of England" comes from. I can see how that image can really have a negative impact on sex drive.


:rotflmao: