slow indy

[seppefan]

Atlantic pole 1.05910 Power fastest lap yesterday 1.023404.

Time they put a turbo in the back for street courses. Next year please.

Come on Marty pop another driver in your car. Andrew Ranger..

[-Helix-]

Or maybe Atlantics are just fast?

Considering they're RACE CARS, I think that's more likely the case.

The whole idea that certain series should be so much faster or slower than other series boggles my mind. They all go fast. They all race. Who gives a .

[Spiderman]

Or maybe Atlantics are just fast?

Considering they're RACE CARS, I think that's more likely the case.

The whole idea that certain series should be so much faster or slower than other series boggles my mind. They all go fast. They all race. Who gives a .

But the A-Atlantic is only a ladder series. And Americas top open wheel class should be a little faster...

[beachbum]

But the A-Atlantic is only a ladder series. And Americas top open wheel class should be a little faster...But the Atlantics have already raced there for a few years and have refined the setups. Plus they are purpose built road race cars, not designed for multipurpose use. Today will be a better gauge.

[Hoop-98]

Atlantic pole 1.05910 Power fastest lap yesterday 1.023404.

Time they put a turbo in the back for street courses. Next year please.

Come on Marty pop another driver in your car. Andrew Ranger..

Fastest Practice 2 last year was 60.22 so 2 seconds difference. They need about 75 HP to close that gap, plus the softer tire.. The Dallaras are about the speed of the 03 Lolas, don't think we called them slow.

Not sure why you would compare pole to a practice session?

I agree on Marty but just for grins here is the Line up for Cleveland in 97 vs yesterdays practices. So backmarkers are not new.

1 56.984 100.0% 62.3404 100.0%
2 57.514 100.9% 62.3900 100.1%
3 57.538 101.0% 62.5365 100.3%
4 57.637 101.1% 62.5831 100.4%
5 57.764 101.4% 62.6220 100.5%
6 57.791 101.4% 62.6685 100.5%
7 57.803 101.4% 62.6806 100.5%
8 57.921 101.6% 62.6933 100.6%
9 57.975 101.7% 62.7528 100.7%
10 57.981 101.7% 62.8760 100.9%
11 58.075 101.9% 62.8800 100.9%
12 58.144 102.0% 62.9395 101.0%
13 58.155 102.1% 63.2856 101.5%
14 58.187 102.1% 63.4577 101.8%
15 58.242 102.2% 63.4684 101.8%
16 58.264 102.2% 63.5862 102.0%
17 58.305 102.3% 63.8570 102.4%
18 58.612 102.9% 63.9548 102.6%
19 58.701 103.0% 63.9866 102.6%
20 59.225 103.9% 64.1350 102.9%
21 59.719 104.8% 64.1646 102.9%
22 59.745 104.8% 64.2360 103.0%
23 59.756 104.9% 64.3010 103.1%
24 60.165 105.6% 64.8655 104.1%
25 60.318 105.9% 64.9073 104.1%
26 61.167 107.3% 65.4394 105.0%
27 61.442 107.8% 67.2098 107.8%
28 63.442 111.3%




rh

[evo5_mat]

so whats the IRL chassis then a single seater for going to the shops and saving on petrol ? no its a race car and that excuse by beachbum never been used before when raced on road courses etc. It was designed for multi purpose use as that why they tested when going into production transmissions etc for circuit useage at dallara

Just think really a atlantic equal to a formula 3 car, gp2 to indylights, so naturally f1 in ladder terms to the irl car.
Ive never seen a f3 car get close to the lap time of a F1 car or for matter a GP2 car, and when you think also atlantics only raced once with the new car at edmonton and mostly change there drivers each year so most are new its quite embarrassing really.
I imagine when come to long beach next year you even might see a atlantic equal or might beat a IRL car around the circuit

[chuck34]

I posted this in the thread about PT. It belongs better here I guess.

Everyone that only wants to watch CC because they were faster I have a question. If all you want is pure speed, if that is the only thing that matters, if that is the only thing you care about, why are you fans of CC? They aren't the fastest thing around. F1 would kick their @ss at pretty much any track. I'm sure you all knew that, but did you know this: Super Karts would run circles around CC and probably F1 at a lot of places. Those things will take a corner way quicker than anything I have ever seen. So all of you that are whining about IndyCars being slower than CC, shut up, go watch some kart racing, and leave us alone.

I know I have stopped watching all racing since the old Can-Am went away. Nothing compares to those things.

[SarahFan]

is there a single racer in the Atlantics that wouldn't trade in his ride for a Indycar this weekend?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Hoop-98, I'm curious. You said that the if the series ran the Honda Indy V8s @ 11,700 RPM (740 BHP) at road courses, the lap times would be the same as those of the Panoz-Cosworth. My question is how would it affect the engine's life time and reliability?

I agree that lap times are secondary to the quality of racing but somehow I didn't like the fact that the Indycar and ALMS speeds were so similar at Mid-Ohio. More importantly, I think a 740 HP engine would be more marketable than a 650 HP one. Unlike what people think, the weak point of the IRL formula is not the chassis, it's the engine in my opinion.

[turbo-engine]

Gee, why are so many people complaining about the speed of the dallara in every forum?

This is what I wrote in another forum:

Does anybody remember the German 500 races in 2001 and 2003?

In 2001 the cars were hitting 215 mph average. In 2003 with basically the same cars they drivers hardly hit 200 mph (due to a different wing setting). I haven't heard people complain about it. Only the hard core fans could see the difference on the straights. And as far as I know, the 2003 race is still considered one of the best oval races in the last years of Champcar.

So why do people have to complain about 3-4 laughable seconds now???

When CART started to race at Montreal, F1 cars were several seconds faster than Champcars. I did not complain about that since the technology of the F1 cars was too different. Remember...the dallara has about 100-150 hp less than the old champcars. So 3-4 seconds isn't that much.

[Hoop-98]

Hoop-98, I'm curious. You said that the if the series ran the Honda Indy V8s @ 11,700 RPM (740 BHP) at road courses, the lap times would be the same as those of the Panoz-Cosworth. My question is how would it affect the engine's life time and reliability?

I agree that lap times are secondary to the quality of racing but somehow I didn't like the fact that the Indycar and ALMS speeds were so similar at Mid-Ohio. More importantly, I think a 740 HP engine would be more marketable than a 650 HP one. Unlike what people think, the weak point of the IRL formula is not the chassis, it's the engine in my opinion.

Honda-Illmor would know the answer and that suggestion was in general terms.

The 3.5s were at 720 or so when they went back to the 3.0. On Ethanol my best guess for an engine evolved from this formula would be to make it 3.7 or 3.8 liters whatever best fits the block without major changes.

Some RPM level between 10,700 and 11,300 should produce a very reliable and safe 750 Plus HP.

Air restrictors/RPM drop could be used for Oval Speed tuning. header inserts for sound tuning..

We agree on the chassis, take 100 HP and Reds off the Panoz and I am pretty sure it would slow down a few seconds.

The 08 Dallara is roughly equal in lap time to the 03 Lola Cosworth.

The low horsepower high relative down force narrow Atlantic can straighten out all the kinks flat out.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

rh

[garyshell]

So why do people have to complain about 3-4 laughable seconds now???

I give up, is this a trick question??? Seriously, I would love to set up my test that I have suggested before. Put a Lola on the track and let it run a half dozen flying laps. A week latter put a Panoz on the same track and do the same thing. A week after that put a Dallara on the track and repeat. Now dare ANYONE without a stopwatch to say which was three seconds faster than which. Except for the team members and corner workers I will guess that only about 10% of folks could get it right.


When CART started to race at Montreal, F1 cars were several seconds faster than Champcars. I did not complain about that since the technology of the F1 cars was too different. Remember...the dallara has about 100-150 hp less than the old champcars. So 3-4 seconds isn't that much.

Agreed, and some times that drop in time equates to better racing. This whole "must be faster than x" mentality just escapes me. My mantra was and is" "must be more competitive than x".

Gary

[bennybigb]

Yes Gary,

We know YOU don't watch racing because the cars are fast. But guess what? Some people DO watch racing because the cars are fast. Or they follow a series because they know those cars are the fasted, baddest cars around. Even if the racing is dull, those cars are still so bad that it takes a top notch driver to even attempt to race it. Well, that thrill is no where to be found in the IRL, and the fans are not impressed.

BTW, what is wrong with pointing out that the IRL cars need to be faster and look better? If we truely care about formula car racing in America, shouldn't we be offering suggestions to improve it? If we sit here silently, nobody will make the product better and the sport will never move forward.

I say criticize the IRL every chance you get. Maybe someone will notice what kind of POS product they have and fix it!

[SoCalPVguy]

Atlantic pole 1.05910 Power fastest lap yesterday 1.023404.

You know, you brought back memories of earlier this year, in January, when we were looking for ideas for CCWS, nee' CART, to survive.

My idea at the time was to get rid of the big expensive Panoz/turbocosworth cars and run the Formula Atlantics series as "Champ cars" - the reason being they are cheaper, good looking and almost as fast as CWS cars on road courses, and I quoted some lap times that indicate thay were almost as fast as the ugly IRL cars at the time, and nobody sitting in the stands or watch TV would notice. Imagine the then-CCWS driver line up in Atlantics, big fields, close racing...

Anyway that train has past and now that there is one premier open wheel racing series, I support it and look forward to growing it with more sponsorship, batter cars, better drivers and additonal diverse venues.

[garyshell]

BTW, what is wrong with pointing out that the IRL cars need to be faster and look better? If we truely care about formula car racing in America, shouldn't we be offering suggestions to improve it? If we sit here silently, nobody will make the product better and the sport will never move forward.


What's wrong with it? It's chasing the wrong goal. The goal ought to be to make the cars more competitive. I never suggested silence at all, I think we SHOULD make suggestions. But, I do think that more speed, more speed is not going to make for a better series.

Gary

[Hoop-98]

60.80 on Practice 3 Group 1.

rh

[turbo-engine]

60.80 on Practice 3 Group 1.

rh

And all of a sudden the difference between a champcar and an indycar is dwindling although I guess there are people out there who would call an indycar 'slow' even if the time difference was less than a second.

[-Helix-]

And all of a sudden the difference between a champcar and an indycar is dwindling although I guess there are people out there who would call an indycar 'slow' even if the time difference was less than a second.

The stupid fanatics would say a Dallara "looks slow" even if it was 10 seconds faster than the Panoz.

I know they still have bitter tastes in their mouth, but their irrelevant bitching and moaning is just annoying.

To the fanatics: Watch and enjoy the racing or kindly GTFO. And no, your whining on message boards is NOT going to change IndyCar no matter how much you think your opinion actually matters.

Besides, we already know they're working on a new car so what the hell else do you want?

[-Helix-]

But the A-Atlantic is only a ladder series. And Americas top open wheel class should be a little faster...

And it is, what's your point?

Though I would have to disagree, the Atlantics are not an IRL series and therefore don't have to be slower if they don't want to be. If they have comparable times to IndyCars, great for them. But in the end, who has all the big names and the big races? IndyCar would still be the top open wheel series even if it was 10 seconds slower than Atlantics. They would also still have the majority of the fans because - believe it or not - most people watch racing for the actual racing and speed differences that you can't even notice are irrelevant.

[Miatanut]

I know I have stopped watching all racing since the old Can-Am went away. Nothing compares to those things.

Some folks think racing is still 'go as fast as possible'. They either weren't around when Can-Am was the end of unlimited racing, or they've forgotten that all cars now are limited in the interest of safety (even NHRA is dealing with this issue now). Then, it's just a matter of HOW limited, and when they get too fast, the sanctioning body needs to slow them down.

That said, I still abhor the current spec. I'd love to see rear wings completely gone, and with the same power the cars have now, with no traction control, the racing would be a lot more fun. Eliminating traction control has made F1 a LOT more interesting.

[anthonyvop]

IndyCars are not the Fastest Open Wheel Cars out there. That honor goes to F-1.
But Indycars can't even claim 2nd place as the GP2 series Dallaras are much faster as well. IF the Superleague does happen then ICS will fall to 4th place.

NASCAR rules the roost when it comes to the # of fans in the US. So how is the IRL going to draw fans? One way back in the 60-70-80's was the fact that IndyCars were significantly faster than everything else out there. They can't claim that now.

BTW the Fact that an IndyCar is not more than 10 secs a lap faster at Edmondton than a car that has Less than HALF THE Horsepower yet weighs less than 200lbs less is pretty bad.

[indycool]

Speeds have been regulated for safety by rules packages for CART cars, Champ Cars and IRL cars for more than 30 years. On a course where you can run fast, like an oval, they're running over 200, but NOT the 238 Luyendyk did at Indy or the 240 de ferran did at Fontana.

On a road course, CC's were even lower than 100 at a couple street courses. Cleveland was the fastest at about 130. But they just aren't gonna go as fast on a road course as they are on an oval.

IMO, the bellerin' about it is just the CW jihad trying to find a place in life again.

[Easy Drifter]

Atlantics have always been fast. In the heyday of FA (mid 70's) at Mosport they were only about 5 seconds off of F1. And the drivers that came out of the series included Indy winners, F1 world champions. Indy car series champions, LeMans winners and of course the great Gilles Villeneuve.

[speeddurango]

There shouldn't be any exuceses that current IRL cars are plain slow and I don't think there's much to complain either, really, it's not like Indycar officials are not looking at a new design of cars, and I remember TG said something like a car resembled CART car in late 90's would be the best. If there's any complain now, then it is they should be bringing out the new car a little earlier.

[Hoop-98]

Reasons are not excuses. The reason the power level is where it is was oval safety. The 100 HP difference is the reason these cars are 2 seconds off at Edmonton, not the chassis. Just think about it.
I think they need to shoot for 750 - 800 HP for the next engine and detune it for ovals, either boost or air restrictor depending on engine design.

rh

[turbo-engine]

I think the cars look really fast on this race course. And two seconds is nothing.

[danny123]

lol

I think its pretty bad when a ladder series is faster or pretty damn close to Indycars speed. However I understand thats its not all about speed, but the top tier cars should be 4-5 secs faster then a ladder series, I mean isnt that part of the moving up process? Also why couldnt they raise the rev limiter on road courses? its not like a oval where there constantly at high revs.

[Hoop-98]

IndyCars are not the Fastest Open Wheel Cars out there. That honor goes to F-1.
But Indycars can't even claim 2nd place as the GP2 series Dallaras are much faster as well. IF the Superleague does happen then ICS will fall to 4th place.

NASCAR rules the roost when it comes to the # of fans in the US. So how is the IRL going to draw fans? One way back in the 60-70-80's was the fact that IndyCars were significantly faster than everything else out there. They can't claim that now.

BTW the Fact that an IndyCar is not more than 10 secs a lap faster at Edmondton than a car that has Less than HALF THE Horsepower yet weighs less than 200lbs less is pretty bad.

Anthony, you want to support your GP2 statement?

Are you referring to the DP01, since it isn't 10 seconds faster than the Atlantic?

Are you, well yes I think you are...

rh

[Hoop-98]

lol

I think its pretty bad when a ladder series is faster or pretty damn close to Indycars speed. However I understand thats its not all about speed, but the top tier cars should be 4-5 secs faster then a ladder series, I mean isnt that part of the moving up process? Also why couldnt they raise the rev limiter on road courses? its not like a oval where there constantly at high revs.

Are the IndyCars not 5 seconds faster than Atlantics?

rh

[Wilf]

COSTS!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, there could be a new chassis for 2009; how many teams could buy it? There's talks of teams that won't be able to compete next year and they have been given their chassis.

Yes, there could be a new faster engine for 2009. How many teams could buy it or afford to lease it?

There is a nice sized, competitive field now. Racing is a competition between cars on the track at the same time, not between timesheets from another car at another time.

You can have a faster, sleeker looking car now and have a 10 - 15 car field or you can have what we have now and let the serie's teams BUILD back up to where they can afford to pay for what they are racing which is predicted to happen around 2011.

For years all we heard was unification and now that we have it all we hear is about going faster with a better looking car. Enjoy what you have and in a couple of years you'll get what you want now, but then I believe the target will be moved again. The desire to improve the sport is commendable, but unless you have a Ferrari in the garage you probably understand the need to drive what you can afford.

AOWR can't continue to run on someone else's nickel too much longer.

Why does everyone assume that because there is one series, costs no longer matter?

[NickFalzone]

Do you really think the lower-end teams, or the transition teams, want to immediately start with a new car next season, or even the season after? They just spent a $$$$load of money to buy equipment for 08, or for lower-tier teams they're finally getting a good feel of the tweaks on the Dallara Honda. To grow the series, it needs to be affordable to 27-30 cars/drivers on the grid. By the time the 2011 season shows up it will likely be a 2-3 manufacturer turbo Dallara. You really think it's good business to force new teams to buy into that new design in the next 12 months? The Edmonton IRL speeds seemed competitive to CC, and as oval open-wheel cars the IRL is tops. Does anyone on this board ever stop bitching and moaning and just watch the races?

[NickFalzone]

Some folks think racing is still 'go as fast as possible'. They either weren't around when Can-Am was the end of unlimited racing, or they've forgotten that all cars now are limited in the interest of safety (even NHRA is dealing with this issue now). Then, it's just a matter of HOW limited, and when they get too fast, the sanctioning body needs to slow them down.

That said, I still abhor the current spec. I'd love to see rear wings completely gone, and with the same power the cars have now, with no traction control, the racing would be a lot more fun. Eliminating traction control has made F1 a LOT more interesting.

Uh, IndyCars do not have traction control.

[Hoop-98]

A Tale of Two Races

http://i37.tinypic.com/2nv9w9g.jpg

rh

[nigelred5]

Uh, IndyCars do not have traction control.

Hmm, I'm not sure that's 100% correct, but I've lost track.


I'm simply waiting for the new formula. No, I don't find hte appearance or the sound of the Indycars that appealing, however it is what it is. At least there's 27 cars on track and We have racing to watch. Next year's schedule will be better, The transition teams will hopefully be more competetive, and hopefully a few more talented drivers will be available with better more appealing sponsorship opportunities in 09.

IMHO, Just get rid of the lawn dart appearance of the current chassis. To be honest, they look more like an evolution of a F5000 car from the 70's than an Indycar. They visually look awkward on the road. I'm not as concerned with the lap times. We know they weren't primarily designed for road racing, nor should they have been, just as the Panoz wasn't truly designed for Oval use. It could have been used with an update package, just as the Dallara is on roadcourses. I'm not necessarily advocating they adopt the Dp01 because there are some legitimate safety concerns with the ovals and I really did not like the way front wings fell off like autumn leaves from the tree at times, but They really NEED to get PANOZ back in the IRL from a cost perspective with the new design.

I'm sure none of the teams WANT to have to buy new chassis in the current economy, but some probably NEED new chassis to even be close to competetive with the top teams that do still purchase new chassis, even with a holdover design. In The CART heydey, you pretty much HAD TO BUY NEW CHASSIS EVERY YEAR. That was something I personally looked forward to every year just as I do in F1. To see the changes in the different chassis, To see who made significant design changes, to see how the different teams then put their own flavor on it from there. Spec packages suck IMHO. Is the field any more level than it was in the 90's in CART? Granted the IRL does allow some development, but no, I don't see that it is. Penske, Green, Ganassi and Newman Haas are still the elite teams. The middle packers are still just that, as are the teams that swap places at the rear of the filed. Sure we all know why it's a spec series. Now that most of thoose factors are gone and The IRL no longer has to try to differentiate itself AND its' equipment from CART/CC, I find it ironic that the formula proposals for 2010 sound conspicuously like The CART formula around the late 90's- early 00's. Just as the schedule does. Good news on both accounts as far as I'm concerned.

[Miatanut]

Uh, IndyCars do not have traction control.

Nope. They just have an excess of grip over power, as did Champ Car the last few years.

Don't remember who it was or what car it was, although I think it was a Shadow, but an owner of a vintage CanAm car made a comment that it could break the wheels loose in all gears. THAT'S a racing car!

Edmonton Qualifying

IndyCar (650 HP): 1:00.731

Formula Atlantic (300 HP): 1:05.455

http://www.champcaratlantic.com/Results/SessionResults.asp?ID=686

[elan 02]

I put my dvr to work for sat. ED Indy. Sunday sat down to watch ( I am a CC fan first,so I'm not going to suger coat this) and they looked like they where on a yellow lap most of the time. I am having a real hard time feeling comfortable with the Dallara/Indy machine and I feel it needs big time speed ( quikness)increase to make it watchable. CC had the feel now it is time for IC to come of age!

[Civic]

I wonder how well a 1997 Grand Prix car would fare against recent Champ Cars/IndyCars.

From what I remember, laptimes were generally within a few seconds of each other year to year in Champ Car, while F1 times seemed to improve a few seconds each year.

The 1997 F1 cars lapped Canada a couple seconds faster than Champ Cars. However, I'm not sure if the circuit layout was the same in 1997 and when Champ Cars raced there.

Anyways, I still think the IRL will be faster than Atlantics in Long Beach 2009.

[seppefan]

More proof IndyCars too slow Many say the next IndyCar needs more horsepower. Here's a comparison of lap times from Champ Car and Indy Car at Edmonton. With one year of development, the new Panoz Champ Car would probably have been in the 57 second bracket this year.
2007 (Champ Car)Fast Lap Sébastien Bourdais: 58.653s. 2008 (Indy Car) Fast Lap Will Power: 1m02.023s

From AR1

[indycool]

Proof. Oh.

[ShiftingGears]

The 1997 F1 cars lapped Canada a couple seconds faster than Champ Cars. However, I'm not sure if the circuit layout was the same in 1997 and when Champ Cars raced there.

The circuit layout was the same.


I totally agree with Miatanut. The speeds of the IndyCars no longer seperate them from F1 and NASCAR, because of safety concerns. So if they can't be faster they sure as hell better look faster. Read: Power over grip.


I think it's a great way to distinguish the series from other series with greater depths of talent.





Also,
MarkC's opinions = :laugh: :laugh: