WRC car on Pikes Peak? [Archive]

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Saabaru

22nd July 2008, 00:36

N.O.T

22nd July 2008, 02:44

It takes more than an unrestricted wrc car to win there....plus the hillclimb holds no marketing value nowadays for the wrc teams....

Saabaru

22nd July 2008, 03:26

Hello, I named the top drivers in the world. There would be lots in it for Ford and Subie...

tmx

22nd July 2008, 03:27

There are too much tarmac there. Considering Monster with the Suzuki almost breaking it by a 1.4 seconds, just give the car to Petter or Marcus and they'll do it by a good margin.

L5->R5/CR

22nd July 2008, 05:10

There are too much tarmac there. Considering Monster with the Suzuki almost breaking it by a 1.4 seconds, just give the car to Petter or Marcus and they'll do it by a good margin.

I won't doubt the abilities of a driver of the caliber of Marcus, Petter, or Seb, but I don't feel this comment reflects an understanding of what it takes to go that fast on that road.

Being a top driver is not enough to break the 10 minute barrier. You have to have a feel and a sense of the mountain and understand it and your car enough to adapt and change for the conditions.

There are many other drivers more talented than Tajima-san however, you cannot discount experience and an ability to read the conditions and the road. Some years the mountain will be willing, other years it will do everything it can to beat you down into submission.

AndyRAC

22nd July 2008, 07:26

It takes more than an unrestricted wrc car to win there....plus the hillclimb holds no marketing value nowadays for the wrc teams....

It could be argued the WRC doesn't hold much marketing value itself anymore!!
(Tongue in cheek)

janvanvurpa

22nd July 2008, 08:06

The great Michelle Mouton said it best "It is just one stage" and after she had beaten the very condescending, arrogant, zenophobic and sexist Unsers on "their" mountain put the difficulty of the climb in perfect perspective when she said "If these men had any balls, they would turn the cars around and we would race down this hill right now".

Anybody want to take bets if the Unsers took the challenge?

it is after all just one stage.
Too much fall-de-rol about it.
(Doubtless it would be fun to run if it didn't cost thousands)

Allez Michelle!

rx-guru

22nd July 2008, 09:02

Saabaru

22nd July 2008, 15:09

"If these men had any balls, they would turn the cars around and we would race down this hill right now".

That's funny, I never knew she said that. I wouldn't down play the difficulty of the climb though, but that would make things a little more interesting.

Daniel

22nd July 2008, 22:43

What's a World Rally Car Car?

KF1800

23rd July 2008, 01:20

What's a World Rally Car Car?

What's the point in that post?

Back on subject, it did get Audi and Peugeot alot of exposure at the time and for the last 20 years so maybe it wouldn't be such a bad 'publicity stunt' for one of the teams if they felt they needed it.

I can't however imagine any of the WRCs being able to match the pace of the purpose built cars without radically changing a few things....

TKM

23rd July 2008, 02:05

What's the point in that post?
What's the point of any of his posts?

L5->R5/CR

23rd July 2008, 05:53

Here is some "on board" of an 11:48.xx run.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080722/VIDEO/951547019/1001

Definitely left a chunk of time on the course but it was a pretty good run. Just a modest 400 whp Evo8.5.

Saabaru

23rd July 2008, 06:04

Back on subject, it did get Audi and Peugeot alot of exposure at the time and for the last 20 years so maybe it wouldn't be such a bad 'publicity stunt' for one of the teams if they felt they needed it.

I can't however imagine any of the WRCs being able to match the pace of the purpose built cars without radically changing a few things....

Audi still uses video of their 80's run up the mountain for PR and commercials.

They would need to use canards, different tires, different rear wings and a few new parts under the hood but it shouldn't be to many new mods.

What's the point of any of his posts?
Maybe someone should explain it to hem..... They are the really really fast ones!

J.Lindstroem

23rd July 2008, 08:15

Audi still uses video of their 80's run up the mountain for PR and commercials.

They would need to use canards, different tires, different rear wings and a few new parts under the hood but it shouldn't be to many new mods.

Maybe someone should explain it to hem..... They are the really really fast ones!

Yes Saabaru, can't you explain for Daniel what a Wrc-car is?! ;)

J.Lindstroem

23rd July 2008, 08:17

What's a World Rally Car Car?

Daniel, if thats the way to be in this thread i'd like to join aswell. With "Wrc car" you can also mean "World Rally Championship Car"! :P

turves

23rd July 2008, 08:44

One could only imagine Petter, Lobe, Atkison, Sordo, Dugal, Gigi, Hirvonen and Latvala in an all out sprint up that long and winding mountain.

I'm just wondering who Lobe, and more amusingly, Dugal, are...

Halvis

23rd July 2008, 10:23

I'm just wondering who Lobe, and more amusingly, Dugal, are...

You forgot Atkison.

WRCfan

23rd July 2008, 12:14

As far as a tweaked WRC car going up Pikes Peak, the closest thing in the last couple of years would be Andrew Hawkeswood's spaceframe Evo. Memory tells me it's pumping 800BHP and weighs almost nothing.

Andrew did set a time up the mountain although part of the run was on a flat tyre so time-wise can't benchmark it against much. He did however achieve fastest split-time one year and had fastest top speed (recorded in speedtrap zone) I read on a website a few minutes ago.

Took this video on my digital camera when he brought it to Palmerston North Speedway in NZ one night. Was a pretty awesome sounding machine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji9ylzqzNog

Saabaru

23rd July 2008, 15:35

I'm just wondering who Lobe, and more amusingly, Dugal, are...
Loeb, Duval if you couldn't figure that out on you own. I'm so sorry I didn't catch any typos before posting, next time I'll proofread. Thanks for pointing that out. Sorry...

Saabaru

23rd July 2008, 15:49

Took this video on my digital camera when he brought it to Palmerston North Speedway in NZ one night. Was a pretty awesome sounding machine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji9ylzqzNog
Wow! Is there any footage of hem at Pikes Peak anywhere on the web?

rx-guru

23rd July 2008, 18:21

With an amazing show at PPIHC this year and that 10min threshold still not broken. Should some of the top teams in the WRC use the worlds most famous hill climb to show there stuff unrestricted. One could only imagine Petter, Lobe, Atkison, Sordo, Dugal, Gigi, Hirvonen and Latvala in an all out sprint up that long and winding mountain. If anyone coud break that 10min barrier it would be them.

Even an unrestricted World Rally Championship car would not come any near the 10 minutes barrier. PP cars for the 'Unlimited' category are true prototypes, made for nothing else but PP. These days they have 1000+bhp at sea level and loose nearly 50% of that power on their way towards the summit (at 4,302 metres or 14,115 feet). The weather is unpredictable, one can have sunshine, rain, fog, snow and/or hail on the way up there. Therefore, setting a new record is also a question of good luck and not only of the abilities of the drivers and their cars. Of course, if the likes of Séb Loeb, Petter Solberg etc. would drive the current PP Suzuki of "Monster" Tajima they would be faster than the ol’ chap and currently it needs just 1.5 seconds to break his 2007 record (10:01:408min) to win the extra 25,000 US Dollar, offered in 2008 by the organiser for the one who will reach the summit in under 10mins. Since Martin Schanche in 1984 there have been several drivers from "my own motor sport" who took part in the Race To The Clouds. The last one was Per Eklund. Although the ol’ warhorse drove a 850+bhp Saab 9-3 Viggen 4WD, only made for PP, nearly 300bhp stronger than his RX car, with huge wings and with a lot of other gadgets that would be illegal for RX, he did not enter the 'Unlimited' class but only the 'Pikes Peak Open' class. Since the year 2000 Per holds the record for this category, doing 11:21:58min, but being no less than 1 minute and 20 seconds slower than Tajima in 2007… I guess you are right that some of the named WRC drivers could do PP in under 10 minutes, but surely not in unrestricted WRCs.

Ari Vatanen doing PP in 1989: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3368948773832597270

Per Eklund doing PP in 2002: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2513527043859261122

Daniel

23rd July 2008, 18:39

Daniel, if thats the way to be in this thread i'd like to join aswell. With "Wrc car" you can also mean "World Rally Championship Car"! :P

Funny. Where were these same people when we were talking about how annoying it is when they say the sport of "Rally" instead of saying "rallying" on the WRC coverage in the UK? :)

I guess I just have more attention to detail than others. Do you have a problem with that? :laugh:

rx-guru

23rd July 2008, 19:18

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/championships/wrc/Pages/SeasonGuide.aspx

What is your point, Daniel? In rallying there is a series that is called the 'FIA World Rally Championship (WRC)'.

Daniel

23rd July 2008, 19:21

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/championships/wrc/Pages/SeasonGuide.aspx

What is your point, Daniel? In rallying there is a series that is called the 'FIA World Rally Championship (WRC)'.

It's not good English though :) That would be like saying "Welcome back to race here at Silverstone" during an F1 broadcast when "Welcome back to the racing here at Silverstone" would be a more apt thing to say. I'm hardly a grammar and spelling nazi as my poor grammar and punctuation will show, but I think there is a certain standard of English you should display to be on the TV :mark:

rx-guru

23rd July 2008, 20:13

English is not my mothertongue and now I start to wonder, for the first time in 30+ years, if the FIA should actually call "my series" FIA European Rallycrossing Championship…

cut the b.s.

23rd July 2008, 23:22

I won't doubt the abilities of a driver of the caliber of Marcus, Petter, or Seb, but I don't feel this comment reflects an understanding of what it takes to go that fast on that road.

Being a top driver is not enough to break the 10 minute barrier. You have to have a feel and a sense of the mountain and understand it and your car enough to adapt and change for the conditions.

There are many other drivers more talented than Tajima-san however, you cannot discount experience and an ability to read the conditions and the road. Some years the mountain will be willing, other years it will do everything it can to beat you down into submission.

Remember Rally Ireland last year? For years we had heard how specialised their roads were and how WRC drivers would struggle, how wrong those thoughts were shown to be. Same up PP, Loeb, Solberg etc would wipe the floor with the the guys who do it, given equal machinery.

Saabaru

23rd July 2008, 23:55

I guess you are right that some of the named WRC drivers could do PP in under 10 minutes, but surely not in unrestricted WRCs.

So there is no way to take an S14 ProDrive car, do whatever it takes to aerodynamics, motor, tires and still not be fast enough?

I have never driven a car of such caliber before and of course never raced up Pikes Peak. The most well prepared car I have ever had the pleasure of driving was an EVO 8 with a little over 400whp. I am currently trying to build a Saab 9.2x for Rallying, so maybe I can run it up the moutain in the next couple of years and I'll know more about what it takes(if the car survives long enough). When I started this thread I was just wondering why you don't see some of the big names in the WRC challenging the mountain anymore like they did in the 80's. Did the interest die when the old Group B cars where put to pasture?

L5->R5/CR

24th July 2008, 04:58

Remember Rally Ireland last year? For years we had heard how specialised their roads were and how WRC drivers would struggle, how wrong those thoughts were shown to be. Same up PP, Loeb, Solberg etc would wipe the floor with the the guys who do it, given equal machinery.

I believe what most of the arguments (at least those made by rational people) were that the locals would do very well and that the WRC regulars would struggle to dominate the event like normal. Some experienced Irish lads did better than the normal local WRCar entrants do.

Don't forget that we saw Bosse crash out and lose a championship because of an error due to difficult changing conditions. Thats a minor detail I know, but it speaks to my point.

I have no doubts about the ability of a Loeb, Gronholm, or Solberg to set very good times. The problem with Pikes Peak is that the conditions are so fluid, you need some experience on the mountain to be able to read the road and make the changes in a split second necessary to maximize the run.

At an 8-9% grade there is no margin for error, every MPH lost to over braking or a missed apex takes an eternity to get back. You have to be able to know where to brake in the shade or in the sun, or on this kind of dirt or that, or on this years tarmac versus that years tarmac. You can leave the start line with conditions necessitating one type of line, hit the middle needing a second, and finish the top needing a third. WRC drivers can do this but you need the experience to read the road and make the change as the change is happening, otherwise it doesn't matter.

Given appropriate machinery and ideal conditions (a misnomer if there ever was one) the WRC regulars would dominate, the catch is ideal conditions.

Lets look at it this way. Why to Finns always do so incredibly well at NORF? Because the Finns typically have the experience to find the last 2-5%. It would be the same at Pikes Peak, that is the basis of my argument.

Tomi

24th July 2008, 06:53

rx-guru

24th July 2008, 10:59

So there is no way to take an S14 ProDrive car, do whatever it takes to aerodynamics, motor, tires and still not be fast enough?

Sorry, but IMO an unrestricted World Rally Car is a WRC without turbo restrictor. If you change anything it will be a prototype rather than a WRC. But I am sure ProDrive needs to build a S14 to match all freedoms eligible for the 'Unlimited' category, to give eg Petter Solberg the chance to break the 10mins barrier. Not just a few wings, a very strong engine and some suitable tyres.

WRCfan

24th July 2008, 11:13

I dont doubt for a second that anyone of the top drivers in WRC would beat the locals or Tajima in equal cars, the basic driving skills are on a completely different level, the roads in Pikes Peak are quite wide too.

I beg to differ, after seeing how our WRC guys drive in Finland on those roads at those speeds, give them Pikes Peak and they would be a real force to be reckoned with....