Was Lewis passing Heikki legal?

[mstillhere]

I think everyone noticed how Heikki moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you McLaren fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

[Zico]

Yes it was illegal and obvious but unprovable.. and as a fan of Formula 1 as a whole rather than any particular team.. I personally dont have a problem with it. He was far quicker than Heikki, would have got past him at some point and so it was in the best interests of the team to perhaps hint that it should happen sooner rather than later and leave it up to Heikki to do what he thought best.

As a team manager would you risk them both wiping out in the process... or if and when he did get past, have reduced his chances of catching both Massa and Piquet?

Also... perhaps not as blatantly.. but do you seriously believe that Ferrari would never/ have never do/done the same in an identical/similar situation?

[Valve Bounce]

It was illegal and he has been given a ticket for speeding.

[Nikki Katz]

The problem with team orders was more when Ferrari were the only team that had a chance of winning a race, and they still decided that Barrichello's wins should be gifted to Schumacher, apart from that race where they tried to organise a dead heat, which backfired a bit.
There was nothing wrong with what McLaren did as Kovalainen was much much slower (incidentally, why was that? I think people were a little too hard on Massa yesterday) and was allowing his teammate a better chance to win, which he did while Heikki could only finish 5th.
I think that at this stage of the season if Kovalainen was going to win and he let Hamilton past then that might be a bit different though. But I doubt that would happen.

[Tomi]

Kovalainen was quite pissed about the teamorder right after the race, he said something like, "I have nothing to comment, because they did not let me race"

[AJP]

I too was very surprised when I watched the footage, the commentators where completely silent. I certainly had thoughts that McLaren could get themselves into trouble if they do this.

[yodasarmpit]

Was Lewis's passing of Massa legal?

I think everyone noticed how Massa moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. :D

[schmenke]

Well this thread was inevitable... :rolleyes:

[cosmicpanda]

I seem to remember either James Allen or Martin Brundle pointing out that Ron Dennis was seen communicating with someone on the pit wall, and then Lewis passed Heikki. They weren't silent.

[wedge]

Remember that in Canada and Turkey 2005, Alonso asked the team for Fisi to move over because he was quicker. NB Canada is before German GP.

Lewis was the quicker the driver so it was right decision. That's where team orders are acceptable.

When team orders are regarded as immoral and unfair is when Jean Todt ordered Rubens to pull over for Michael when Ruben blatantly the quicker driver in Austria 2001 and '02 and deserved the victory with barely a few races into the championship.

Team orders are perfectly acceptable in motorsport but it takes the audaciousness of Ferrari to make a mockery of it all and spoil it for the rest and now team orders is now regarded as a negative.

The whole team orders is illegal thing is just an excuse to throw the book at someone if we have repeat of Austria. When, since 2003, has a team been penalised for team orders?

[cos]

The sporting regulation in question states "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", which is, let's face it, vague as anything. Lewis was much faster than anyone else on track at that time and he was clearly going to get by Heikki within a couple of laps anyway. Did McLaren suggest to Heikki that it would be a good idea to makeit somewhat easier for Hamilton to pass? Most likely. Did it affect the race result? I highly doubt it.

[Rollo]

39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.

Since Lewis won the race and Hekki finished in fifth after not really improving his position after this, one wonders if this constitutes "interference" of the race result.

Even if your opinion was to throw Lewis to the dogs over this one, it's Hekki who submitted his position, and actually proving "interference" per se would be incredibly difficult.

[Tomi]

The sporting regulation in question states "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", which is, let's face it, vague as anything. Lewis was much faster than anyone else on track at that time and he was clearly going to get by Heikki within a couple of laps anyway. Did McLaren suggest to Heikki that it would be a good idea to makeit somewhat easier for Hamilton to pass? Most likely. Did it affect the race result? I highly doubt it.

This nobody cant say for sure, what ever could have happened, to pass someone is always a risk, but i think its good that Heikki let him pass until he has the name under the new contract, if you start to give positions just like that you end up like Barricello.

[schmenke]

The "No team orders" rule was introduced to avoid bringing the sport into disrepute. I feel it has somewhat backfired :mark:

[Hawkmoon]

Well this thread was inevitable... :rolleyes:

Yes it was, and with good reason.

How much crap did Ferrari get for using perfectly legal team orders in the early part of this century? The amount of rubbish thrown about on this forum alone was staggering. McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?

I thought McLaren only used yeam orders when one driver was mathematically out of contention? Unless my maths are screwy Kovalainen is still in contention is he not? So McLaren can break their own golden rule and it's OK because McLaren are a "true" racing team unlike Ferrari who only care about winning to the detriment of the sport. :rolleyes:

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with McLaren using team orders. It's what's going to win them the WDC. Ferrari, assuming they get the car quick enough again, will be splitting points between two drivers. McLaren won't.

My problem is with the media and the fans on the forum who were so virulent in their condemnation of Ferrari being so quiet when McLaren do the same thing. If team orders are so bad then it doesn't matter what colour the cars are, does it?

[AJP]

Yes it was, and with good reason.

How much crap did Ferrari get for using perfectly legal team orders in the early part of this century? The amount of rubbish thrown about on this forum alone was staggering. McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?

I thought McLaren only used yeam orders when one driver was mathematically out of contention? Unless my maths are screwy Kovalainen is still in contention is he not? So McLaren can break their own golden rule and it's OK because McLaren are a "true" racing team unlike Ferrari who only care about winning to the detriment of the sport. :rolleyes:

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with McLaren using team orders. It's what's going to win them the WDC. Ferrari, assuming they get the car quick enough again, will be splitting points between two drivers. McLaren won't.

My problem is with the media and the fans on the forum who were so virulent in their condemnation of Ferrari being so quiet when McLaren do the same thing. If team orders are so bad then it doesn't matter what colour the cars are, does it?I'm not being quite...BUT, Kova's was not in contention for a race win at all. Ferrari this year may well have shot themselves in the foot by having two drivers competing for the world title. Something they did not have in the Schumi era. In saying this, there is still along way to go in this championship and we could well see Massa and Raikonen fighting right down to the last race to win the title. For me, I like Ferrari even more this season as they seem to be, along with BMW, the teams with two drivers that are challenging hard for the championship. Thats better for the sport in my opinion.

[pits4me]

Comparing this to the Ferrari incident is absolutely ridiculous. That call on Ruben's had more to do with padding ShuMi's run at the WDC than the constructors points.

Lewis was fortunate it was Hiekki and not a team mate like 'unibrow' whom seldom acts in the best interest of the team or stablemates who may be clearly faster.

[Rollo]

McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?

Is it actually illegal? Can you actually prove that the results of the race were "interfered" with?

Would it have been impossible for Lewis to pass Hekki anyway considering that he then went on the pass both Massa and Piquet? What of the possibility that Heikki was told that Lewis was coming through and moved over anyway? Are we even actually sure that the "team order" exists? Was Heikki deliberately told to move over?

Even if McLaren did order Hekki to move out of the way, to prove such an allegation would require a scrutineering of the radio transmissions, which I'm pretty sure at this moment in time is not happening.

At one stage Lewis was in the lead; 24 seconds ahead of his nearest rival. It just might be possible that he was the best out there on the day... but to admit that... surely not!

[Valve Bounce]

Had Kovi followed Lewis after the move and been able to overtake both Massa and Junior, then I would join the legion of forumers in condemning Ron Dennis's actions. However, Kovi had reached the limit of his pace and the only achievement he could have made was to hinder Lewis's chances to win the race.

McLaren made a gamble when they did not refuel Lewis during the SC period. They had fuel for several more laps, meaning that Lewis's final stint on soft tyres would have been a short one, enabling him to be quicker. This worked and McLaren won the race.

Kovi's contribution to the results was a fourth, and whether he was given any team orders or not, he would have ended up coming fourth anyway. The only one who could have suffered was Lewis had he been forced to follow Kovi for several laps trying to pass him as he would have buggered his tyres through graining.

So there you have it.

[mstillhere]

I love to see the McLAren fans swinging and flip flopping one way and the other too as long as it is convenient for you. All your moralistic and ethical threads about how important it is for a driver to pass his own team mate out of pure sportmanship and fairness went strait into the garbage can. I have no idea how you can actually sit down at your computer and seroiusly write your hypocritical comments TOTALLY forgetting that just a couple of years ago you were just stating the opposite. I am frankly appaled. I have shown my ability, in one of my most recent threads - Ferrrai's stupidity- to call things for what they are. If Ferrrari does something stupid, I have no problem in critizing it. It they cheated I am the first denouncing my team and their wrong doing. Here, except for a couple of guys, I see a fanatical defence of the silver (only recently) bullets about their stealing, their bending of the rules (including Heikki and his refueling issue). Is it so hard for you guys TO HAVE A A STANDARD AND STICK TO IT? As far as your crediblity goes, you really loosing lots of it.
PS Here you find what RD said about it. It's just incredible the nerve he has. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080721102741.shtml

[MadDan]

lets not forget monaco last year HOW lewis checked the $###s
arfter not being allowed to pass alonso.

[Valve Bounce]

I love to see the McLAren fans swinging and flip flopping one way and the other too as long as it is convenient for you. All your moralistic and ethical threads about how important it is for a driver to pass his own team mate out of pure sportmanship and fairness went strait into the garbage can. I have no idea how you can actually sit down at your computer and seroiusly write your hypocritical comments TOTALLY forgetting that just a couple of years ago you were just stating the opposite. I am frankly appaled. I have shown my ability, in one of my most recent threads - Ferrrai's stupidity- to call things for what they are. If Ferrrari does something stupid, I have no problem in critizing it. It they cheated I am the first denouncing my team and their wrong doing. Here, except for a couple of guys, I see a fanatical defence of the silver (only recently) bullets about their stealing, their bending of the rules (including Heikki and his refueling issue). Is it so hard for you guys TO HAVE A A STANDARD AND STICK TO IT? As far as your crediblity goes, you really loosing lots of it.
PS Here you find what RD said about it. It's just incredible the nerve he has. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080721102741.shtml

I think you are confusing dates (I am thinking Austria 02) and the situation where Rubens was ordered to let SchM past to win when he did so at the last corner, and when SchM then gave the trophy to Rubens.

The two situations are totally different.

This time Kovi did not ultimately lose a single position at all.

I don't want to keep dredging up old rants which, as I have explained in ioan's thread, serves no useful purpose than to create a feel bad atmosphere in this forum.

I couldn't care less if the cars were silver or Red. Had Kimi, in a slower car, been asked to pull over in similar circumstances for Massa at Silverstone, I could live with it also. But if Kimi had been told to pull over in the last lap to let Massa past to win, then we would have a totally different situation and I am willing to bet the forum would light up with abuse from 98% of the members.

I hope this clarifies things for you. I can't make it clearer than that if yrstillhere.

[e2mtt]

How does this incident have anything to do with team orders? How in the world can stupid fanboys think this is an example of illegal team orders by McLaren? (ooo wait, cuz they are stupid fanboys.) Hamiliton catches Heikki, Heikki sportingly lets him by, knowing he doesn't have comparable speed, then Hamilton proceeds to drive off into the distance, overtake the next 2 cars, and win the race. I am really not seeing the problem.

[mstillhere]

I think you are confusing dates (I am thinking Austria 02) and the situation where Rubens was ordered to let SchM past to win when he did so at the last corner, and when SchM then gave the trophy to Rubens.

The two situations are totally different.

This time Kovi did not ultimately lose a single position at all.

I don't want to keep dredging up old rants which, as I have explained in ioan's thread, serves no useful purpose than to create a feel bad atmosphere in this forum.

I couldn't care less if the cars were silver or Red. Had Kimi, in a slower car, been asked to pull over in similar circumstances for Massa at Silverstone, I could live with it also. But if Kimi had been told to pull over in the last lap to let Massa past to win, then we would have a totally different situation and I am willing to bet the forum would light up with abuse from 98% of the members.

I hope this clarifies things for you. I can't make it clearer than that if yrstillhere.


Unfortunately the rules are not as detailed as your descrition is. They don't specifically mention exactely what lap the team order can be given or in what circumstance, if it's sunny or rainy. They simply state that team orders have no room in F1. Period. Clear and simple for everybody to follow.There is no free interpretation for obvious reason. What about we let the team mate slow down on the penultime lap? Is it ok too? Please call it for what it is: McLAren fans don't care how McLaren win, as long as they win. Obviously if anybody else were to do the same they should be punished, banned, whatever. And no, you did not made clearer for me since what you are stating only works for you. Let me make it clear for you: you need to have a standard and stick to it.

[gloomyDAY]

Hamiliton catches Heikki, Heikki sportingly lets him by, knowing he doesn't have comparable speed, then Hamilton proceeds to drive off into the distance, overtake the next 2 cars, and win the race. I am really not seeing the problem.http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w262/gator_momma/Applause.gif

[Valve Bounce]

They simply state that team orders have no room in F1. Period.

That's is not what the rules state concerning team orders, semicolon!!

Get your facts straight before you launch another rant, please!! :rolleyes:

[Easy Drifter]

I'll state what I said when the FIA introduced their so called rule against team orders. It is none of their business how a team conducts their race. I know they put a rule in place but it is a bunch of hogwash.
There have been team orders since there have been teams. Neubauer would have told the FIA where to go in a hurry.
There will continue to be team orders, they just have to disguise them. All teams have and will use them if they feel there is a good reason to do so. Note ALL.
Now the drivers do not always pay attention but they usually are looking for a new team by the next season.

[Jag_Warrior]

How does this incident have anything to do with team orders? How in the world can stupid fanboys think this is an example of illegal team orders by McLaren? (ooo wait, cuz they are stupid fanboys.) Hamiliton catches Heikki, Heikki sportingly lets him by, knowing he doesn't have comparable speed, then Hamilton proceeds to drive off into the distance, overtake the next 2 cars, and win the race. I am really not seeing the problem.

Excellent post!

Since some of the fanboys here seem to have proof that McLaren used team orders, wonder why they don't forward that information to the FIA? And since Heikki was apparently so fast... wonder why he didn't come in 2nd? :rolleyes:

[leopard]

Perhaps because he came in to pitstop too often. ;)

[Knock-on]

How does this incident have anything to do with team orders? How in the world can stupid fanboys think this is an example of illegal team orders by McLaren? (ooo wait, cuz they are stupid fanboys.) Hamiliton catches Heikki, Heikki sportingly lets him by, knowing he doesn't have comparable speed, then Hamilton proceeds to drive off into the distance, overtake the next 2 cars, and win the race. I am really not seeing the problem.

Couldn't agree more.

If anyone here is so ignorant of why the team orders rule was brought in, then no amount of reasoning will ever change their mind.

Hekki had no answer for Lewis on Sunday just as Massa and Jnr didn't.

He would have held up his team mate, compromising Lewis's race
In doing so, he would have slowed himself down compromising his race
There was a chance of a team mate crash if they battled the position

He made a judgement call and you have to say, it was the right one. Had Hekki followed Lewis, taken Massa and Jnr finishing in 2nd, then there would be NO WAY he should have let him past but there was no chance of that.

[ArrowsFA1]

...we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did.
1) We don't know it was a team order. We don't know Heikki was told to move over. Assumptions are being made from tv pictures whereas the FIA have access to all the team radio communications.

2) The 2008 FIA Sporting Regs Article 39.1 says: "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." Given that Heikki's fastest lap was almost 0.5s slower than Hamilton, and that after the pass he made no progress up the leader board, unlike Hamilton, I can't see how the race result was interferred with.

So no team orders and no interference IMHO.

Incidentally, one of the problems is how deliberately vague the rule is. Every action by every team and every driver at every race "interferes with the race result" in some way or another :p

[MAX_THRUST]

Don't think it is good for the sport team orders, as Schumi and Barrichello proved in Austria, however Hieki needs to get his act together. If Lewis is lapping that much faster than him in the race then something is wrong with Hieki. Hieki does well in practise and qualy, but falls asleep in the race, a bit like Trulli used to fall off.

Didn't think the overtake was that bad, no worse than the one at Silverstone two weeks ago, Where Hieki clearly breaked early for the turn again.

[jas123f1]

I think everyone noticed how Heikki moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you McLaren fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Yes - this time it was ok. I think Heikki did it because he hadn't any chance to keep Lewis behind him anyway.

BUT - why he was that much slower is difficult to understand? I don't believe he should be over one second behind Lewis in normal case.

[Knock-on]

Yes - this time it was ok. I think Heikki did it because he hadn't any chance to keep Lewis behind him anyway.

BUT - why he was that much slower is difficult to understand? I don't believe he should be over one second behind Lewis in normal case.

Cue the accusations of Hekki being handicapped so Lewis looks good :laugh:

[ShiftingGears]

I think you are confusing dates (I am thinking Austria 02) and the situation where Rubens was ordered to let SchM past to win when he did so at the last corner, and when SchM then gave the trophy to Rubens.

The two situations are totally different.

This time Kovi did not ultimately lose a single position at all.

I don't want to keep dredging up old rants which, as I have explained in ioan's thread, serves no useful purpose than to create a feel bad atmosphere in this forum.

I couldn't care less if the cars were silver or Red. Had Kimi, in a slower car, been asked to pull over in similar circumstances for Massa at Silverstone, I could live with it also. But if Kimi had been told to pull over in the last lap to let Massa past to win, then we would have a totally different situation and I am willing to bet the forum would light up with abuse from 98% of the members.

I hope this clarifies things for you. I can't make it clearer than that if yrstillhere.

Right on the money.

The team order rule was brought in to avoid situations like Austria 2002 where it'd make F1 look, I suppose, farcical. It's unwritten law that this rule is more of a recommendation, rather than a law set in concrete.

[ioan]

Honestly I have nothing against team orders.
It's just the double measures used around here by the fans of team "integrity" that make me puke.

[ioan]

The problem with team orders was more when Ferrari were the only team that had a chance of winning a race, and they still decided that Barrichello's wins should be gifted to Schumacher, apart from that race where they tried to organise a dead heat, which backfired a bit.

There was only one win taken away from Rubens, and he got at least one gifted to him by MS later on. So let's not exaggerate.

[ioan]

Kovalainen was quite pissed about the teamorder right after the race, he said something like, "I have nothing to comment, because they did not let me race"

He must be feeling bad having to let Lewis by in 2 consecutive races. But after all he is Ron's reconstructed 2nd hand driver, without McLaren in his blood!

I loved the images with Ron "Integrity" pushing the radio buttons just moments before it all happened!
It was priceless! :D

[ioan]

The sporting regulation in question states "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", which is, let's face it, vague as anything. Lewis was much faster than anyone else on track at that time and he was clearly going to get by Heikki within a couple of laps anyway. Did McLaren suggest to Heikki that it would be a good idea to makeit somewhat easier for Hamilton to pass? Most likely. Did it affect the race result? I highly doubt it.

What if Hamilton couldn't manage to pass Heiki on a fair basis? Isn't it that the results of the race were changed by team orders?

You see, I believe they were right to ask Heiki to move over in order to achieve the best possible result for the team.
What bothers me is how some people go to extreme lengths trying to prove it wasn't illegal given that there are rules that state otherwise!

[ioan]

Well this thread was inevitable... :rolleyes:

Are you disgusted?
Well so were we, Ferrari fans, over the endless, relentless and never proved calls for cheating and so on from fans of McLaren and Williams back in the day.

Live by the sword, die by the sword!

PS: At least we got proof for the accusations we bring up! :D

[ioan]

Comparing this to the Ferrari incident is absolutely ridiculous. That call on Ruben's had more to do with padding ShuMi's run at the WDC than the constructors points.

McLaren are doing everything in "padding" Lewis' run! I can't see the difference you see, maybe I should borrow some silver tinted glasses?!

[ioan]

This time Kovi did not ultimately lose a single position at all.

That's bizarre! I thought that if the guy behind you get's in front of you it means that you lost a position! :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

What bothers me is how some people go to extreme lengths trying to prove it wasn't illegal given that there are rules that state otherwise!
But the rule says team orders are prohibited if they interfere with a race result. If Hamilton couldn't manage to pass Heiki on a "fair" basis i.e. Lewis was slower than Heikki, then a team order instructing Heikki to slow and let Lewis through would be something like we saw in Austria 2002, and therefore illegal.

Patently this was not the case in Germany 2008. For one thing the assumption is being made that a team order was issued by McLaren. Given that the FIA have access to team race communications it is safe to assume that that assumption is not a fact. Also, it is obvious to anyone that Lewis was the quicker driver and had the speed and opportunity to improve the teams' result from the 4th & 5th positions they held at the time.

[ShiftingGears]

That's bizarre! I thought that if the guy behind you get's in front of you it means that you lost a position! :rolleyes:

Team orders or not, noone was going to stop Hamilton passing Kovalainen. It was just a matter of when.

[ioan]

Since some of the fanboys here seem to have proof that McLaren used team orders, wonder why they don't forward that information to the FIA?


1) We don't know it was a team order. We don't know Heikki was told to move over. Assumptions are being made from tv pictures whereas the FIA have access to all the team radio communications.

Here:


Kovalainen was quite pissed about the teamorder right after the race, he said something like, "I have nothing to comment, because they did not let me race"

I guess, you lot only read the parts that suit your POV.
Cheers!

[Mark]

Team orders or not, noone was going to stop Hamilton passing Kovalainen. It was just a matter of when.

Yes. Kova would have been passed. The only thing he would have achieved is stopping Hamilton from passing Massa or Jr. Which would have gone down real well with the team!

[ArrowsFA1]

Kovalainen was quite pissed about the teamorder right after the race, he said something like, "I have nothing to comment, because they did not let me race"
Is there a link for this "something like" comment or was it made in a tv interview?

Here's (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69355)what the team said:
"Heikki was troubled by oversteer in his first stint, which we attempted to correct at his first pit stop, but he still struggled a little in his next stint. That being the case, he wasn't able to match Lewis's pace today. But it's the mark of both his professionalism and his sportsmanship that, aware of his situation relative to Lewis's, he made it relatively straightforward for Lewis to pass him."

If seeing the pressing of a button on tv = illegal team orders then the FIA should have been, and will be, kept very busy :D

[MAX_THRUST]

The thing that is clouded for me, is that F1 is a team sport, I didn't agree with DC letting Mika past in Australia or the season ending race the year before. Blatantly staged. At least Lewis was clearly faster than Heiki and without doubt would have passed.

Any team mate who makes his team fight for any possition to hard is not a team player and will get dropped. 1st lap fair enough, mid to end of race, tough luck, you gotta drive faster.

It's not like Ferrari wouldn't have done it the same, and I wouldn't have had a problem with it. The big difference if they did is the two drivers are equal.

[MAX_THRUST]

Ioan :

I don't read your posts, so I can't comment on others reading what they like from yours.............

Damn it, that means I read one of your posts.............lol

[ioan]

Team orders or not, noone was going to stop Hamilton passing Kovalainen. It was just a matter of when.

Agree.

[ioan]

Here's (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69355)what the team said:


Oh, team "integrity" and their chronic liar team boss. I'll sure take everything they say with at least a ton of salt.

[ioan]

Ioan :

I don't read your posts, so I can't comment on others reading what they like from yours.............

Damn it, that means I read one of your posts.............lol

Don't worry, it's all right for me both ways, read them or not! :)

[wedge]

What if Hamilton couldn't manage to pass Heiki on a fair basis? Isn't it that the results of the race were changed by team orders?

Then why wasn't Renault/Alonso penalised at Canada 2005, for example?

On the season review DVD (not sure if this was televised) Alonso demands the team for Fisi to move over: "I am much quicker!"

Hamilton would've done exactly the same thing and asked the team. Barrichello did exactly the same thing at Spain last year.


You see, I believe they were right to ask Heiki to move over in order to achieve the best possible result for the team.
What bothers me is how some people go to extreme lengths trying to prove it wasn't illegal given that there are rules that state otherwise!

I think your remark is hypocritical. Another excuse to attack McLaren/Ron 'integrity' Dennis.

If forum members agree with Ron/McLaren actions then some people accuse them of being McLaren fanboys/British patriotism. This is becoming rather tiresome on this forum over the past month or so

[ArrowsFA1]

Oh, team "integrity" and their chronic liar team boss. I'll sure take everything they say with at least a ton of salt.
And yet you're quite happy to take an as yet unsubstantiated "something like" comment as gospel.

Pot. Kettle. Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_calling_the_kettle_black)

:s mokin:

[ioan]

So if another member posted what Heiki commented on TV it isn't valuable?!

Given Ron's history of lies, I'm completely entitled to have reservations in believing him. Unless you believe he changed overnight.

[ArrowsFA1]

So if another member posted what Heiki commented on TV it isn't valuable?!
It would be more valuable if it was a direct linked quote, as opposed to "something like", so I'll reserve judgement on that one.

I'm completely entitled to have reservations in believing him.
I'd expect nothing less :) But if you discount what Ron has said are you also ignoring the facts that 1) there has been no protest and 2) the FIA (who have access to all team communications) have taken no action over such a 'flagrant rule break'?

[Shalafi]

It would be more valuable if it was a direct linked quote, as opposed to "something like", so I'll reserve judgement on that one.


Heikki said that to MTV3, finnish TV, after the race. Then later when he came out from McLaren motorhome, he was much more reserved with his words...No doubt RD had done his "magic" again...

[Bagwan]

Here's a stupid rule .

This was a team order .
Ron might have said it in a less blatant way , but it was most definitely a team order .
He even praised his driver afterwards for getting the message .

Though what had happened was very clear , the way Ron worded that message made it so he had completely complied with the rules regarding team orders .

Did I mention that this rule is stupid ?

Team orders are essential , and used regularly at every team , but are expressly forbidden , unless worded in the correct manner , so as not to seem blatant , even though they might look obvious enough to cause heated debate even when worded properly .

If you word it right , you can even thank your man for pulling over .



I wonder what the punishment would have been , had Ron just said he wanted Heikki to let Lewis by .
That would have been horribly illegal .

Just so nobody gets the wrong impression , I want to state that this rule is stupid , in my opinion .

[Valve Bounce]

That's bizarre! I thought that if the guy behind you get's in front of you it means that you lost a position! :rolleyes:

I said ultimately ioan. :rolleyes:
Lewis went on to pass both Junior and Massa, while Kovi never looked like closing the gap to them.

The way I saw it, Kovi may have been able to hold Lewis up for, at the most, a couple of laps but Lewis would have passed him with no more difficulty than the way he passed Junior and Massa.

Of course you might have seen things differently.

[Valve Bounce]

Oh, team "integrity" and their chronic liar team boss. I'll sure take everything they say with at least a ton of salt.

Give it a break, ioan. I can't say more or I'll get banned. :(

[wedge]

Heikki said that to MTV3, finnish TV, after the race. Then later when he came out from McLaren motorhome, he was much more reserved with his words...No doubt RD had done his "magic" again...

Heikki has every right to be unhappy because team orders benefit one driver, just as Lewis was unhappy in Monaco last year.

But really Heikki should really be angry with himself because Lewis is digging deep to make things happen and Heikki is struggling at times.

[ioan]

Give it a break, ioan. I can't say more or I'll get banned. :(

Don't like it? Don't read it.

[555-04Q2]

I said ultimately ioan. :rolleyes:
Lewis went on to pass both Junior and Massa, while Kovi never looked like closing the gap to them.

The way I saw it, Kovi may have been able to hold Lewis up for, at the most, a couple of laps but Lewis would have passed him with no more difficulty than the way he passed Junior and Massa.

Of course you might have seen things differently.

There is another angle Valve. Yes LH went on to pass two other cars and ultimately win the race (and I think LH is a brilliant driver, he amazes me at times the way a young Schumi did), but if LH had been rightly forced to have raced his teammate for the position, there may have been a collision which put LH out of the race. Its called a racing incident. The result would have been very different then. HK's actions negated that possibility and prevented the viewers the chance of possibly seeing a first time winner in a Renault. That is the reason the team order rule was introduced. As it is we dont have enough overtaking.

It is a long shot that LH and HK would have had an incident or that one of them may have gone off the track during a genuine overtaking attempt, but the remote possibility was removed by a blatant team move which contravenes the team order rule.

[Valve Bounce]

I hear X-Files will be shown in the Cinema soon.

[555-04Q2]

I hear X-Files will be shown in the Cinema soon.

:laugh: Not interested. I only watch XXX-Files :D

[ioan]

What if HK kept Hmilton behind himself long enough to deny him the chance to catch Piquet?!

There are plenty of questions to be answered, and plenty of scenarios to come up with.

In the end, I'm all for team orders.
However I'm against hypocrisy!

[555-04Q2]

In the end, I'm all for team orders.
However I'm against hypocrisy!

:up: My feelings exactly. Apparently our feelings are wrong no matter what and other hard arsed ones round here are always right :( There is a definite pecking order when it comes to being "right" round here :down:

[Knock-on]

:up: My feelings exactly. Apparently our feelings are wrong no matter what and other hard arsed ones round here are always right :( There is a definite pecking order when it comes to being "right" round here :down:


Whatch that chip doesn't fall off your shoulder and crush a toe ;)

[Tazio]

Here's a stupid rule .

This was a team order .
Ron might have said it in a less blatant way , but it was most definitely a team order .
He even praised his driver afterwards for getting the message .

Though what had happened was very clear , the way Ron worded that message made it so he had completely complied with the rules regarding team orders .

Did I mention that this rule is stupid ?

Team orders are essential , and used regularly at every team , but are expressly forbidden , unless worded in the correct manner , so as not to seem blatant , even though they might look obvious enough to cause heated debate even when worded properly .

If you word it right , you can even thank your man for pulling over .



I wonder what the punishment would have been , had Ron just said he wanted Heikki to let Lewis by .
That would have been horribly illegal .

Just so nobody gets the wrong impression , I want to state that this rule is stupid , in my opinion .That was a brilliant drive by LH. If this is the best detraction that his detractors can come up with,
it is pretty clear that he deserves congratulations, not reservations, and qualifications!
Not a good situation to invoke this rule!

[mstillhere]

Excellent post!

Since some of the fanboys here seem to have proof that McLaren used team orders, wonder why they don't forward that information to the FIA? And since Heikki was apparently so fast... wonder why he didn't come in 2nd? :rolleyes:

The opposite is also true. Do you have any proof they did not do it? Because it sure looks like they did. Anyway just remeber to stick to you story when the opposite will happen.

[mstillhere]

That's is not what the rules state concerning team orders, semicolon!!

Get your facts straight before you launch another rant, please!! :rolleyes:

You know what? Juist remeber that these things go both ways. And since what goes around comes around I can't wait to see what you are going to say when Ferrari is going to do the same. I already know that you are going to flip flop and start ranting how Ferrari is unfair, and all that trash. Just be man enough to remember what you say and stick to your story. That' all I have to say.

[pits4me]

McLaren are doing everything in "padding" Lewis' run! I can't see the difference you see, maybe I should borrow some silver tinted glasses?!

It appears you are already wearing rose colored glasses. Lewis was much faster than his team mate last weekend. Rubens was clearly the better driver when Ferrari "suggested" he let Michael by.

The difference here boils down to which driver or team you support. McLaren naysayers are like vultures looking for the first sign of road kill (even if the varmit still has life in it). Now the FIA has impounded LH's engine, just when I thought the "F" didn't mean Ferrari. You'd think this witch hunt would be history by now.

[Allyc85]

So you know exactly was said on the radio do you?

Threads like this are the main reason I dont post much on F1 forums as theres too many people out there that think they know, nut actually just believe what they want to make up.

If you had a driver that was over half a second faster than his team mate and fighting for the championship youd expect them to swap places.

[ioan]

It appears you are already wearing rose colored glasses.

And I won't deny it, unlike you and some other wearing the silver tainted glasses! :D

And yet you're quite happy to take an as yet unsubstantiated "something like" comment as gospel.

Pot. Kettle. Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_calling_the_kettle_black)



It would be more valuable if it was a direct linked quote, as opposed to "something like", so I'll reserve judgement on that one.

Now that is rich.

Time and time again you've been asked to substantiate your claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

For the record, I have no problem with Hamilton passing Kovalienen, team-orders or not.

[Robinho]

i'll try to keep it short, it seems the problem is not that order, but the fact that "McLaren fans" have defended the move(apparently thats what everyone who disagrees with "Ferrari fans" must be, i'll also take "Hypocrites" instead of Mac fans ;) )

the way i see it, there is a rule against team orders, and that came around as a direct response to Austria 2002 where the result was switched to no net benefit of the team. The rule may be worded poorly, but the intention IMO is to prevent teams from switching their drivers as they see fit to gain a couple of points for one driver to the detriment of the other, especially at the point in a year when the points made little difference.

it appears there was certainly at least a request for Heikki to let a faster Lewis past, however it was clear that Lewis should not have been behind Heikki, that he was clearly the faster driver on the day. had they not made that request Lewis may not have got past, or not in time to catch and pass the other 2. If Heikki had been on a pace to catch and pass the leaders then this is a different story, but releasing the faster of the 2 cars happens somewhere in the field in most races, especially when they are on different strategies, or when the net result is a gain for the team - i don't see threads all over the place calling rule breakages for those - a little Hypocritical no?

it seems pretty reasonable to suggest that if Heikki had not moved over (ordered or not) then McLaren would have had a worse result than they finally acheived. this is clearly not in contravention to the spirit of the team order rules, presumabley the other teams (Ferrari and Renault who were directly affected) think the same as they are not protesting, the FIA have not seen fit to investigate. i would also expect any other team to do pretty much the same, and also for no-one to bat an eyelid.

if we are going to get excited about this now, start bandying around "hypocrites" and double standards, then perhaps we should start with Brazil last year, where a faster Massa moved over to let Kimi past - not net gain in the result for the team, but a gain for the driver? however there is no reason to, it was a perfectly reasonable call given the circumstances. if we are going to examine every decision to the veryt leter of the regulations then there is no point in watching, every situation has its own unique set of motives, circumstances and outcomes - F1 is never going to be black and white, particularly when looking at sporting regs rather than technical ones.

if there was a clear rule breach there would be something being done, all there actually is are a few people who like an opportunity to play the downtrodden and imagine what the outcome may have been if the situation were reversed, based on an assumpition of peoples motives in a quite different set of circumstances several years ago, yet it is the "McLaren fans" who are apparently losing credibility. isn't it time for common sense to prevail?

if you disagree with the move then fine, and i'd hope you'd do the same regardless of the teams involved. if you think this is a situation that would be perfectly reaosnable and to be expected regardless of the team then fine.

[Rosco1]

Im new here, so go easy...

Arent team radios monitored? If so then obviously if RD had told HK to let LH pass then they would have been punished. Telling him his teammates pace is not against the rules, leave it up to HK to make the decision. Its a team sport first and formost, personal glory second.

Anyway, HK seems like level headed guy, why would he race his teammate hard and possibly take them both out? Thats the worst thing you can do. I dont think he would. His pace was nowhere near LH's, no ones was in that race.

Comparing this to Austria 02/brazil 07 is like comparing a Cessna to a 747...

[gravity]

Hi there Rosco1. Welcome to the forums! And a nice sensible first post ;)

I don't see why people need to be branded as "McLaren Fanboys" if they don't dispute the team orders. It doesn't matter which team had swapped their drivers in that situation, it was the sensible thing to do. You would insist your team do the same as a team boss in any form of motor racing. And that doesn't make them McLaren Fanboys for supporting their team, does it?

Another point that hasn't been mentioned here (that I've seen);
If LH was brought into the pits, they'd have had to queue HK up behind him. McLaren chose to try get their best overall result by keeping LH out for longer. They sort of dropped their lead driver for the benefit of the 2nd driver who did not have to wait in queues. HK returned the favour later on in the race in helping LH get back into his position. Was it forced by the team? I'd like to think that HK is smart enough not to need team orders to tell him what to do in that situation.

[Valve Bounce]

:laugh: Not interested. I only watch XXX-Files :D

You need help :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

You know what? Juist remeber that these things go both ways. And since what goes around comes around I can't wait to see what you are going to say when Ferrari is going to do the same. I already know that you are going to flip flop and start ranting how Ferrari is unfair, and all that trash. Just be man enough to remember what you say and stick to your story. That' all I have to say.

Why? I want Kimi to win. :rolleyes: and If Msasa wins, great!! So what's your point?

[Valve Bounce]

Comparing this to Austria 02/brazil 07 is like comparing a Cessna to a 747...

Or Tupperware to Meissen Chrystal. :p :

[ShiftingGears]

Everyone should stop whinging. There was little to no complaint in Brazil '07, just like there was little to no complaint in Germany '08.

So don't complain about it!

[Valve Bounce]

Well, I've provided as much logical input to this discussion as I possibly can, and having read logical as well as non-logical arguments from those who contributed here, I think it's time for me to move on.

So, I'll bid adieu to this thread!!

[ArrowsFA1]

Time and time again you've been asked to substantiate your claims.
What is your point? What "claim" are you on about this time?

[SGWilko]

I voted no.

I would much rather the FIA play delayed audio of the events leading to the team mates pass to the audience.

If we allow team orders back, we will risk claims of race fixing in certain scenarios.

Can we not just allow common sense to prevail?

[555-04Q2]

Whatch that chip doesn't fall off your shoulder and crush a toe ;)

Thats why I wear steel toecaps :D Never know when you gonna need them :p :

[555-04Q2]

You need help :eek:

You sound like my wife :p :

What is your point? What "claim" are you on about this time?

You know full well which claims I'm referring to.

You are no saint when it comes to posting stuff which you cannot substantiate.

[ArrowsFA1]

You know full well which claims I'm referring to.
No I don't, which is why I asked the question but if you're referring to the claim that Heikki was pissed at the "team order" then that was not my claim. I merely said I would reserve judgement on that as I had not seen it reported and no link has been given.

In the light of Ron Dennis's reported comments on the subject, and the fact that the FIA have access to all team radio communications and have taken no action, I don't think that is unreasonable.

[jso1985]

You know what? Juist remeber that these things go both ways. And since what goes around comes around I can't wait to see what you are going to say when Ferrari is going to do the same. I already know that you are going to flip flop and start ranting how Ferrari is unfair, and all that trash. Just be man enough to remember what you say and stick to your story. That' all I have to say.

for the record I can say I won't mind any team orders from any team as long as it isn't done on the Austria 2002 fashion

so I'm on my whole right to tell everyone here, shut up and stop whining :D

No I don't, which is why I asked the question but if you're referring to the claim that Heikki was pissed at the "team order" then that was not my claim. I merely said I would reserve judgement on that as I had not seen it reported and no link has been given.

In the light of Ron Dennis's reported comments on the subject, and the fact that the FIA have access to all team radio communications and have taken no action, I don't think that is unreasonable.

I know that those were not your claims, and you are right to reserve judgement in this matter.

But that hasn't stopped you before from jumping the gun, which is why I believe your childish 'pot-kettle-black' link in response to Ioan was unwarranted and not just a tad bit unreasonable.

[tinchote]

Fangio benefitted from team orders in the 50s
Andretti benefitted from team orders at Lotus in 1978
Jones benefitted from team orders at Williams in 1980/81
Hakkinen benefitted from team orders at McLaren in 1998
Schumacher benefitted from team orders at Ferrari in 2002
Hamilton benefitted from team orders at McLaren in 2008

Surprisingly, most forumers seem to consider that the 2002 case "brought the sport into disrepute" while all the others didn't. Interesting standards :rolleyes:

(by the way, I was really annoyed with the Austria 02 episode, and in fact looking for a place to complain is that I found these forums; I was annoyed by that, and also by all the other team order episodes I mention)

[PolePosition_1]

I think everyone noticed how Heikki moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you McLaren fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Nobody was horrified because it was sensible, and done in a reasonable manner.

And its NOT hypocritical, McLaren have always said they provide drivers with an equal shot of the championship. They've always kept that going. At Germany, only one driver has a shot at the championship, that driver was 0.7s a lap quicker, its called common sense letting them past eachother.

And the team did NOT tell Heikki to let Lewis past. As thats a team order. My understanding is that team radio is monitored, so if they had told him that they'd be punished. Its likely they told Heikki the situation, and common sense was applied and he let Lewis past.

[HereIam]

done in a reasonable manner? You are not serious, are you? Banning team orders was ridicoluos, but since they are there, the McLaren drivers could at least have pretended that they were racing each other. The way Kovi gave up his position was a joke... but maybe he did it on purpose, because he was pissed off...

[mstillhere]

And the team did NOT tell Heikki to let Lewis past. As thats a team order. My understanding is that team radio is monitored, so if they had told him that they'd be punished. Its likely they told Heikki the situation, and common sense was applied and he let Lewis past.

You seem to have a lot of privileged information. And, my understanding is that radio transmission are monitored ONLY if the team agrees to it. I recall reading that whenever McLaren and Ferrari - not Renault - have some thing to say to their pilots, they can shield their communications keeping what they say secret. Besides, as you could see on tv, RD might have simply pushed a button without saying a word to let Kova know about his whishes. As far as hypocrisy, we would not be here talking about this subject if it would not have been for all the outrage at Ferrari's tactics and then flip floppin on the same issue as soon as McLaren does that. We have to make sure that in this sport NOBODY wins as a result of an unfair davantage. And if Lewis was so much faster than his team mate he did not need any help to pass Kova. After all he passed Massa pretty easily and Piquet too, and they are not his team mates. Of course since now team orders are helping McLaren, we should drop the subject and stop whining. McLaren's fans want their team to win very bad (understandibly so after so many years of draught) and therefore they are not that interested in the team orders issue. Of course any other team, especially Ferrari, is strictly bound to them.
And as I said before what goes around comes around. So, be prepared.

[chuck34]

I don't normally post on the F1 pages, but I do watch quite a bit of F1.

One thing that I am surprised that no one has brought up is this. What if Heikki was in a Renault let's say. Lewis comes flying up behind him, he's clearly faster and Flav says "let him buy so he doesn't screw up our race, or we get in a crash". Would that be wrong? I don't thinks so. It happens all the time, and no one seems to think anything about it.

That is sort of how I see this situation. It's way different than when Rubens was clearly faster that MS, but was told to pull over

[harsha]

it's my impression that the FIA regulates the Radio communication between the Teams and the Driver and Heikki Kovalainen did the wise thing considering he was about 0.8-1 second slower than Lewis.

[Firstgear]

[quote="mstillhere"] And, my understanding is that radio transmission are monitored ONLY if the team agrees to it. [quote]

I don't think you have this quite right. My understanding is that the officials monitor all the team's radio communications.

Where the teams have a choice, is whether they open up their communications to the broadcasters so that we (the fans) can hear what is being said.

[PolePosition_1]

You seem to have a lot of privileged information. And, my understanding is that radio transmission are monitored ONLY if the team agrees to it. I recall reading that whenever McLaren and Ferrari - not Renault - have some thing to say to their pilots, they can shield their communications keeping what they say secret. Besides, as you could see on tv, RD might have simply pushed a button without saying a word to let Kova know about his whishes. As far as hypocrisy, we would not be here talking about this subject if it would not have been for all the outrage at Ferrari's tactics and then flip floppin on the same issue as soon as McLaren does that. We have to make sure that in this sport NOBODY wins as a result of an unfair davantage. And if Lewis was so much faster than his team mate he did not need any help to pass Kova. After all he passed Massa pretty easily and Piquet too, and they are not his team mates. Of course since now team orders are helping McLaren, we should drop the subject and stop whining. McLaren's fans want their team to win very bad (understandibly so after so many years of draught) and therefore they are not that interested in the team orders issue. Of course any other team, especially Ferrari, is strictly bound to them.
And as I said before what goes around comes around. So, be prepared.

I pretty certain your understanding is wrong.

I understand TV broadcasts can listen in is optional, but team radio by race stewards is not. They have access to it if need be. If you can provide me with link suggesting otherwise I'll retract my understanding.

"We have to make sure that in this sport NOBODY wins as a result of an unfair davantage"

If thats what you want - your watching the wrong sport mate - watch a sport where all the cars are identical :)

I didn't see any outrage when Ferrari used 'team orders' in Brazil last year - and that decided the outcome of the championship!!

I think you'll find its not a case of McLaren can use team orders and Ferrari can't. Its a case of give each driver an equal shot of the championship, when one has a clear advantage, if other car is in position to help, use common sense. As was applied at Germany this weekend by McLaren and Ferrari in Brazil last season.

[PolePosition_1]

Yes it was, and with good reason.

How much crap did Ferrari get for using perfectly legal team orders in the early part of this century? The amount of rubbish thrown about on this forum alone was staggering. McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?

I thought McLaren only used yeam orders when one driver was mathematically out of contention? Unless my maths are screwy Kovalainen is still in contention is he not? So McLaren can break their own golden rule and it's OK because McLaren are a "true" racing team unlike Ferrari who only care about winning to the detriment of the sport. :rolleyes:

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with McLaren using team orders. It's what's going to win them the WDC. Ferrari, assuming they get the car quick enough again, will be splitting points between two drivers. McLaren won't.

My problem is with the media and the fans on the forum who were so virulent in their condemnation of Ferrari being so quiet when McLaren do the same thing. If team orders are so bad then it doesn't matter what colour the cars are, does it?

I don't believe McLaren have said they ALWAYS wait for one car to be mathematically out of title race before deploying team orders.

They've said that in past when DC was in with half decent shot and Mika in thick of it. But I do believe they say they'll give each driver an equal shot of the title at beginning of every season.

"McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?"

I don't think people have trouble with team orders if carried out with common sense - what they don't like is situations such as the MS days, e.g. Austria 02, or Rubens giving up his car to MS because MS didn't like feel of it, or MS having spare car at all races even at beginning of season etc.

Surely you can see the difference to using team orders in reasonable manner and to using them in manner Ferrari used them in the past?

[PolePosition_1]

I love to see the McLAren fans swinging and flip flopping one way and the other too as long as it is convenient for you. All your moralistic and ethical threads about how important it is for a driver to pass his own team mate out of pure sportmanship and fairness went strait into the garbage can. I have no idea how you can actually sit down at your computer and seroiusly write your hypocritical comments TOTALLY forgetting that just a couple of years ago you were just stating the opposite. I am frankly appaled. I have shown my ability, in one of my most recent threads - Ferrrai's stupidity- to call things for what they are. If Ferrrari does something stupid, I have no problem in critizing it. It they cheated I am the first denouncing my team and their wrong doing. Here, except for a couple of guys, I see a fanatical defence of the silver (only recently) bullets about their stealing, their bending of the rules (including Heikki and his refueling issue). Is it so hard for you guys TO HAVE A A STANDARD AND STICK TO IT? As far as your crediblity goes, you really loosing lots of it.
PS Here you find what RD said about it. It's just incredible the nerve he has. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080721102741.shtml

Whats wrong with what RD said? He said no team orders were used, Heikki used common sense. He just saying what happened.

Whats your opinion on Jerez 97?

[PolePosition_1]

There was only one win taken away from Rubens, and he got at least one gifted to him by MS later on. So let's not exaggerate.

How often did MS team-mates move over for points and wins? Or how many times did he just take his team-mates car for no good reason. He had spare car at all races. His team-mates strategies were based around MS. The car was designed around his driving style. The whole team was around MS, with the other driver merely being part of the team to help MS win.

I'm not being funny, but never in recent F1 times have we seen a situation like this. And I don't think we ever will.

How often did MS team-mates move over for points and wins?

Malaysia 1999. One more time than Hakkinen, for example, ever did.


Or how many times did he just take his team-mates car for no good reason.

No good reason? Being the Number 1 in the team & wanting to win is not a good reason? Seems perfectly acceptable to me.


His team-mates strategies were based around MS. The car was designed around his driving style. The whole team was around MS, with the other driver merely being part of the team to help MS win.

Well, that's because Ferrari had a distinct policy of basing their championship hopes around the one man who they knew could deliver.

Not taking advantage of that situation would have been professionally reckless.

[markabilly]

I said ultimately ioan. :rolleyes:
Lewis went on to pass both Junior and Massa, while Kovi never looked like closing the gap to them.

The way I saw it, Kovi may have been able to hold Lewis up for, at the most, a couple of laps but Lewis would have passed him with no more difficulty than the way he passed Junior and Massa.

Of course you might have seen things differently.


Quite correct; however, RD was saying again, right before this race that it was team equality, no team orders,..yyayadda....if you do want a link, then go check out autosport.....

Before the season began Rd made it clear that Lewis was number one, then later still tries to say, team equality....now RD is praising HK for being quite a competitor :eek:

[grantb4]

I don't mind the letting-the-teammate-pass thing, but I hate it when the trailing driver drives a little slower to slow the pack down and let the leader get way ahead.

[Roamy]

I voted yes because there is no way to police them. I recall mika salo had is only chance to win a F1 race scuttled by team orders. If I were Mika I would have just kept the pedal to the metal. But Massa and RB have made a lot of Dinero bending over!!

[Tumbo]

and in the same vein Irvine had his chance at the WDC scuttled by the team losing a wheel. End of the day team-orders are going to be there, the important thing is that they are done in such a way that they don't cause embarrasment - Schumi/Barrichello only became a serious issue because of the way in which it was done, there are times when a second driver should scoot over if they are not going to be able to properly compete and are going to merely hold up a faster team-mate; having said that if a driver is in first and slower than his team-mate it's questionable whether he should move aside..............team is getting maximum manufacturer/team points so i'd be arguing that it is a case of show your greater speed and get past urself

[Jag_Warrior]

The opposite is also true. Do you have any proof they did not do it? Because it sure looks like they did. Anyway just remeber to stick to you story when the opposite will happen.

No, I don't have any proof that McLaren did not use team orders. But I'm not the one seeing black helicopters. In my neck of the woods, when making a charge, it's up to the accuser/prosecution to prove guilt. The accused doesn't have to prove innocence or anything else. And without proof, why would the FIA or the media or anyone else be wound up? Later in this thread, you go on to say: "I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it."

I'll ask again, what is it that all of us know? And how do you know this? Maybe you have some pals at News of the World who would back you on this. But no, with no more proof than you seem to have, what (responsible) media outlet would print your conspiracy theory as fact? Heikki clearly let Lewis by. But you don't know whether it was because someone from McLaren told him to or if he did it on his own. He was going to get by Heikki anyway, so why hold the guy up?! What would be gained?

This isn't the IRL. Most drivers in F1 do have enough "big picture racing sense" to do the smart thing, without having to be told to do so by their teams.

[mstillhere]

No, I don't have any proof that McLaren did not use team orders. But I'm not the one seeing black helicopters. In my neck of the woods, when making a charge, it's up to the accuser/prosecution to prove guilt. The accused doesn't have to prove innocence or anything else. And without proof, why would the FIA or the media or anyone else be wound up? Later in this thread, you go on to say: "I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it."

I'll ask again, what is it that all of us know? And how do you know this? Maybe you have some pals at News of the World who would back you on this. But no, with no more proof than you seem to have, what (responsible) media outlet would print your conspiracy theory as fact? Heikki clearly let Lewis by. But you don't know whether it was because someone from McLaren told him to or if he did it on his own. He was going to get by Heikki anyway, so why hold the guy up?! What would be gained?

This isn't the IRL. Most drivers in F1 do have enough "big picture racing sense" to do the smart thing, without having to be told to do so by their teams.


That McLaren are desperate and would do anything to win is proven by what they did last year. I am sure we can agree on that. That McLaren specifically said to Kova: "Hey Kova let Lewis get by now otherwise no refuel for you" is also not proven. However, that McLAren has said something in that vein: "Hey Kova, guess what? Lewis is way faster than you and.....he is right behind you" RD himself and his engineers said that that happened. Actually from one of their interviews it transpires that Kova was not too happy about that "guess what" message. Now it's a matter for you to connect the dots. If you want to of course. As far as I am concerned we don't get to establish the rules. The rules are rules. And it does not matter if Lewis is faster, if it's the very last lap, and so on. But you know..let me do this...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. How's that? Just remember though, since what goes around comes around, don't flip flop when it's going to be Ferrari doing the same thing, ok? Although Although for some people what Ferrari does is always not right because....hum.....whatever,,,,right.....
PS Hey, you heard? Hamilton's car is being inspected by the FIA. Coincidence?

[Jag_Warrior]

That McLaren are desperate and would do anything to win is proven by what they did last year. I am sure we can agree on that. That McLaren specifically said to Kova: "Hey Kova let Lewis get by now otherwise no refuel for you" is also not proven. However, that McLAren has said something in that vein: "Hey Kova, guess what? Lewis is way faster than you and.....he is right behind you" RD himself and his engineers said that that happened. Actually from one of their interviews it transpires that Kova was not too happy about that "guess what" message. Now it's a matter for you to connect the dots. If you want to of course. As far as I am concerned we don't get to establish the rules. The rules are rules. And it does not matter if Lewis is faster, if it's the very last lap, and so on. But you know..let me do this...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. How's that? Just remember though, since what goes around comes around, don't flip flop when it's going to be Ferrari doing the same thing, ok? Although Although for some people what Ferrari does is always not right because....hum.....whatever,,,,right.....
PS Hey, you heard? Hamilton's car is being inspected by the FIA. Coincidence?


"The only thing we do is advise our drivers of the respective pace of the other driver," he said. "They ultimately call it.

"Lewis was nearly one second quicker and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past. It was a tremendous sporting gesture," Dennis added. Referring to Kovalainen, he continued: "He knew that was the only way because the longer he would have held up Lewis the more difficult it would have been for him to have regained the lead. It's what being in a racing team is about. "True team-mates do these things because that's the way they are," said Ron Dennis.


When I give orders, I am very clear about what I expect to happen and when. The problem here is that some fans don't seem to know the difference between an order and at best, a vague implication.

Whether it's McLaren, Ferrari or BMW, if one of the team drivers has shown the field his backside all day, and the other is not on his pace, I would expect the lead driver to NOT make it a time consuming exercise for the faster car to get past him. No matter the team, I don't have a problem with that.

[Bagwan]

When I give orders, I am very clear about what I expect to happen and when. The problem here is that some fans don't seem to know the difference between an order and at best, a vague implication.

Whether it's McLaren, Ferrari or BMW, if one of the team drivers has shown the field his backside all day, and the other is not on his pace, I would expect the lead driver to NOT make it a time consuming exercise for the faster car to get past him. No matter the team, I don't have a problem with that.


The problem , actually , is that fans DO know the difference .

It was an order , essentially because no driver wants to be seen by his team as holding the team back .

For the record , I don't have a problem with team orders , but rather with the rule banning them .

The fans , the announcers , and I'm sure the FIA saw team orders , but , because they were "vague" , they were allowed .
That's just stupid .

Stupid , stupid , stupid rule .

[Jag_Warrior]

The problem , actually , is that fans DO know the difference.

Apparently some don't.


It was an order , essentially because no driver wants to be seen by his team as holding the team back.

Essentially nothing. That's not an order.

Let's say I'm the VP of Operations at your company. I call you on Monday and tell you that one of your supervisors certainly is a screw up and I have no use for him... and that's all I say. Have I ordered you to fire that person? You don't want to hold the team back, do you? So you fire him. But that would all be on your shoulders. I have not ORDERED you to do anything.

An order is a superior telling you to do something. It is not based on a desire to do what's right for the team.

What the FIA saw was a slower driver allowing a faster driver an easy pass. What reason would Heikki have had to hold up someone who was going to pass him anyway? Short of proof that he was ORDERED to do that, there is no proof of team orders. And yes, I'd say the exact same thing if it was Ferrari, BMW or Force India!

[ioan]

Heiki said afterward that he was unhappy because they didn't let him fight, still people say it wasn't an order from the team! :rolleyes:

[mstillhere]

The fans , the announcers , and I'm sure the FIA saw team orders , but , because they were "vague" , they were allowed .
That's just stupid .

Stupid , stupid , stupid rule .

I agree with that

[mstillhere]

When I give orders, I am very clear about what I expect to happen and when. The problem here is that some fans don't seem to know the difference between an order and at best, a vague implication.

Whether it's McLaren, Ferrari or BMW, if one of the team drivers has shown the field his backside all day, and the other is not on his pace, I would expect the lead driver to NOT make it a time consuming exercise for the faster car to get past him. No matter the team, I don't have a problem with that.

When you give orders is because you are supposed to and I am sure you don't give orders that are against the rules, right? And so on............I don't like to repeat myself.....

[Jag_Warrior]

The thread title: "Was Lewis Passing Heikki Legal?"

Six pages of fluff that tries to prove that it was not, just because "we know".

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/images/geuu_03_img0663.jpg

[ioan]

The thread title: "Was Lewis Passing Heikki Legal?"

Six pages of fluff that tries to prove that it was not, just because "we know".

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/images/geuu_03_img0663.jpg

:rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Heiki said afterward that he was unhappy because they didn't let him fight, still people say it wasn't an order from the team! :rolleyes:
That's all well and good but where was his 'fight' in the rest of the race? Why was he 0.5s slower than Hamilton during the race? Why could he not make similar progress through the field?

Saying that he was not allowed to fight Hamilton rather puts the spotlight on those kind of questions.

[Storm]

Ron Dennis says today that Hamilton does not need the help of HK to win the title....nice Ron, then why the hell did he pull over at the hairpin?

Sure Hamilton is faster than Heikki but lets not say that Heikki did not help him in Germany. He did.

If they had been let to do battle, I am sure Lewis would have passed him anyways so its a moot point.

[ioan]

Oh Ron "integrity" Dennis can't stop making himself look like an idiot.

I saw that article yesterday on autosport.com, I decided however not to bring it up myself.

[Garry Walker]

He must be feeling bad having to let Lewis by in 2 consecutive races. But after all he is Ron's reconstructed 2nd hand driver, without McLaren in his blood!

I loved the images with Ron "Integrity" pushing the radio buttons just moments before it all happened!
It was priceless! :D

Ron: Heikki - Let theGolden Boy through, let the Golden Boy through :D

It wasn`t team order at silverstone, in my view. It was at hockhenheim though, that was obvious to everyone.

The real question we should be asking is - what the hell is Kovalainen doing being so slow in the currently best car of the field? His pace has been an absolute joke.
McLaren did the right thing to tell him to get the hell out of Hamiltons way

[mstillhere]

Ron: Heikki - Let theGolden Boy through, let the Golden Boy through :D

It wasn`t team order at silverstone, in my view. It was at hockhenheim though, that was obvious to everyone.

The real question we should be asking is - what the hell is Kovalainen doing being so slow in the currently best car of the field? His pace has been an absolute joke.
McLaren did the right thing to tell him to get the hell out of Hamiltons way

Is it Hamilton just faster? Is it Kova too slow or..... is it that their cars are "different"? :)

[Knock-on]

Is it Hamilton just faster? Is it Kova too slow or..... is it that their cars are "different"? :)

I think that Hamilton has demonstrated his speed time and time again.

IF you think that Ron hired Fernando to handicap him against a (then) rookie and

IF you think that Ron decided that he will only have one car going as fast as it possibly can and

IF you think that HK would do just as well as Lewis if nasty Ron would just let him drive as fast as he wanted

THEN the new X Files film is out. Can you review it for me please and post your opinion in the special matter transferance portal cunningly marked "Trash". :D

I just love the conspiracy theories surrounding F1.

We know MS was #1 at Ferrari but does anyone believe for a second that Ferrari would not have given Rubins the fastest possible car to support him. After all, they only had to tell him to stop for a cuppa if they they wanted MS to win.

Similarly with McLaren, occassionally Hekki shows strong and gets the maximum out of the car but most the time he's noticibly slower. Last week it was 1/2 a sec a lap and there was nobody going to stop Lewis. If he had of tried, he would have lost time to the people following and might have taken himself out of the race.

Only difference between the MS and Lewis situation is that we see Hekki and Lewis battleing when Hekki has the speed.

As we saw with Massa and Jnr, he was going past no matter what.

[mstillhere]

I think that Hamilton has demonstrated his speed time and time again.

IF you think that Ron hired Fernando to handicap him against a (then) rookie and

IF you think that Ron decided that he will only have one car going as fast as it possibly can and

IF you think that HK would do just as well as Lewis if nasty Ron would just let him drive as fast as he wanted

THEN the new X Files film is out. Can you review it for me please and post your opinion in the special matter transferance portal cunningly marked "Trash". :D

I just love the conspiracy theories surrounding F1.

We know MS was #1 at Ferrari but does anyone believe for a second that Ferrari would not have given Rubins the fastest possible car to support him. After all, they only had to tell him to stop for a cuppa if they they wanted MS to win.

Similarly with McLaren, occassionally Hekki shows strong and gets the maximum out of the car but most the time he's noticibly slower. Last week it was 1/2 a sec a lap and there was nobody going to stop Lewis. If he had of tried, he would have lost time to the people following and might have taken himself out of the race.

Only difference between the MS and Lewis situation is that we see Hekki and Lewis battleing when Hekki has the speed.

As we saw with Massa and Jnr, he was going past no matter what.

So, based on what the McLaren's fans are saying, (Lewis naturally faster than Kovi) I don't expect Kovi to be kept next year, since based on his performance (6th?) a McLAren on him is totally wasted.
Although, according to this article:http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43482 McLAren itself agrees that Kovi has been...hum...negletted. My guess would be to stop Kovi from competing with Lewis. And that's coming from McLaren themselves saying again that the team needs to be closer to Kovi.

"McLaren’s F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh says the team needs to work closely with Heikki Kovalainen to help him exploit his full potential and reach the same performance level as team-mate Lewis Hamilton"

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43482

Funny, because a few months ago....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66085

"McLaren have rebuilt Heikki Kovalainen's confidence and turned him into a Formula One driver who can push teammate Lewis Hamilton all the way this season, according to Ron Dennis.

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again," the McLaren boss told Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper on Tuesday."

[mstillhere]

"McLaren’s F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh says the team needs to work closely with Heikki Kovalainen to help him exploit his full potential and reach the same performance level as team-mate Lewis Hamilton"

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43482

Funny, because a few months ago....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66085

"McLaren have rebuilt Heikki Kovalainen's confidence and turned him into a Formula One driver who can push teammate Lewis Hamilton all the way this season, according to Ron Dennis.

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again," the McLaren boss told Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper on Tuesday."

Damn internet!!!!!!!!! :)

[ioan]

"McLaren’s F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh says the team needs to work closely with Heikki Kovalainen to help him exploit his full potential and reach the same performance level as team-mate Lewis Hamilton"

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43482

Funny, because a few months ago....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66085

"McLaren have rebuilt Heikki Kovalainen's confidence and turned him into a Formula One driver who can push teammate Lewis Hamilton all the way this season, according to Ron Dennis.

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again," the McLaren boss told Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper on Tuesday."

The typical McLaren bull$hit, also known as Ronspeak.

[Rollo]

Whether it's McLaren, Ferrari or BMW, if one of the team drivers has shown the field his backside all day, and the other is not on his pace, I would expect the lead driver to NOT make it a time consuming exercise for the faster car to get past him. No matter the team, I don't have a problem with that.

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr420.html


At the same time Alboreto stopped with a gearbox problem and so second place was suddenly in the hands of Jacques Laffite's Ligier. Rosberg pitted again for new tires but was still well ahead. Laffite realized that there was no way he could catch Keke and backed off but his team mate Streiff came charging up. Laffite thought he was a lap behind and Streiff thought that he was under pressure from Capelli (who was actually a lap behind) and as a result the two Ligiers contrived to collide. Laffite's car was largely undamaged but Streiff's lost its right front wheel. Undeterred by this Streiff decided to drive it the one lap to the finish line, which he succeeded in doing. Capelli was fourth with Johansson fifth and Berger sixth.

Hekki should not have moved over. He should have caused as much trouble for Lewis as possible, so that hopefully, both cars would have been damaged and at best, not finished the race. Then and only then would no-one accuse them of having team orders.

[Jag_Warrior]

:rolleyes:

Oh sure, roll your eyes. Here I am trying to help you X-Filers out and that's the thanks I get! That's how Dennis communicated the team orders to Heikki. The little green men travel in a different dimension. Only the McLaren team can see them. And they run real fast. Ron gave them the word. They ran out onto the track and jumped on top of Heikki's car and screamed "Now Heikki! NOW!!!". Did you notice how suddenly he moved out of the way? Well, if a little green man had his junk pushed up in the visor of your helmet, yelling at you, I bet you'd make a sudden move too.

I've switched sides. I'm with you guys now. Dirty rotten, cheating cheaters! Green men lovers!!! Stay strong. We know what happened, don't we?

[Jag_Warrior]

Hekki should not have moved over. He should have caused as much trouble for Lewis as possible, so that hopefully, both cars would have been damaged and at best, not finished the race. Then and only then would no-one accuse them of having team orders.

I'm with you. This is the most exciting F1 season that I can remember, in 35+ years of following the sport. This was a great race with great action. And some of this lot will nitpick something to death... claiming that they KNOW what the FIA doesn't.

I like Kimi. Massa not so much. Heikki seems a good lad too. And of course, I'm pulling for Lewis. But if Kimi had let Massa by under the same circumstances, ya know what... short of proof (not "I saw THIS, therefore I know THAT"), I'd let it go and look forward to the next contest.... hoping that it would be the barnburner that this one was.

But you could turn a mouse loose in a rest home, and the old ladies there wouldn't make as much noise as some of these people. There's a moose in the hoose!!! :D

[speeddurango]

It's a lesson DP and Marco Andretti should learn, what should you do for your team when your teammate is faster, tangle with each other?

[PolePosition_1]

Malaysia 1999. One more time than Hakkinen, for example, ever did.



No good reason? Being the Number 1 in the team & wanting to win is not a good reason? Seems perfectly acceptable to me.



Well, that's because Ferrari had a distinct policy of basing their championship hopes around the one man who they knew could deliver.

Not taking advantage of that situation would have been professionally reckless.

But Mika didn't have benefit of full on team orders.

I'm not saying have a numebr 1 driver etc is unsuccessful. I'm just saying F1 is a team sport and an individual sport. When you have a number one to that extent, your going against the very principles of sport.

Sport is about competing, your main competitor is your team-mate, MS and Ferrari denied us of that - in that respect its not at all sporting.

I no not taking advantage of it would be silly if that was their policy, I'm merely pointing out its an incredibly unsporting policy to take on in what is still at the end of the day a sport!

[PolePosition_1]

Quite correct; however, RD was saying again, right before this race that it was team equality, no team orders,..yyayadda....if you do want a link, then go check out autosport.....

Before the season began Rd made it clear that Lewis was number one, then later still tries to say, team equality....now RD is praising HK for being quite a competitor :eek:

Can you give me a link of when RD said at beginning of season Lewis is number 1? I've never heard that before.

[PolePosition_1]

That McLaren are desperate and would do anything to win is proven by what they did last year. I am sure we can agree on that. That McLaren specifically said to Kova: "Hey Kova let Lewis get by now otherwise no refuel for you" is also not proven. However, that McLAren has said something in that vein: "Hey Kova, guess what? Lewis is way faster than you and.....he is right behind you" RD himself and his engineers said that that happened. Actually from one of their interviews it transpires that Kova was not too happy about that "guess what" message. Now it's a matter for you to connect the dots. If you want to of course. As far as I am concerned we don't get to establish the rules. The rules are rules. And it does not matter if Lewis is faster, if it's the very last lap, and so on. But you know..let me do this...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. How's that? Just remember though, since what goes around comes around, don't flip flop when it's going to be Ferrari doing the same thing, ok? Although Although for some people what Ferrari does is always not right because....hum.....whatever,,,,right.....
PS Hey, you heard? Hamilton's car is being inspected by the FIA. Coincidence?

But your forgetten, Ferrari have done the same thing, Brazil last year, and that decided the title. And no one complained.

Majority of real mature F1 fans don’t mind team orders when done reasonably. They understand it’s a team sport as well as an individual sport. But the individual aspect (i.e drivers championship) must be respected, and given an equal shot from the word go.

I think it’s a safe bet to say Ferrari (post MS) and McLaren have got the right approach when it comes to team orders.

[PolePosition_1]

Heiki said afterward that he was unhappy because they didn't let him fight, still people say it wasn't an order from the team! :rolleyes:


Come someone give me a source of Heikki complaining about this?

I've heard this several times, and despite being a daily F1 website user, I aint seen this article.

Also, I can comfirm 100% the team did not tell Heikki to move over. Because thats breaking the rules. They let him know of the situation, and he acted upon it on how the team works.

If people are against this particular move - whats your response to Heidfeld letting Kubica past at Canada?

That actually did change the result of the race!

[PolePosition_1]

Oh Ron "integrity" Dennis can't stop making himself look like an idiot.

I saw that article yesterday on autosport.com, I decided however not to bring it up myself.


If its the article I think your on about (maybe post a link when your refering to an article :) ).

Ron was purely answering questions about what Jackie Stewart said (he reckons Heikki should be Lewis No.2). Ron was merely saying no he is not.

And he is, if Heikki was faster than lewis, do you honestly believe he'd have been told to let him past?

[Knock-on]

So, based on what the McLaren's fans are saying, (Lewis naturally faster than Kovi) I don't expect Kovi to be kept next year, since based on his performance (6th?) a McLAren on him is totally wasted.
Although, according to this article:http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43482 McLAren itself agrees that Kovi has been...hum...negletted. My guess would be to stop Kovi from competing with Lewis. And that's coming from McLaren themselves saying again that the team needs to be closer to Kovi.

Actually, if you read the article, it says no such thing.

Martin says that Hekki is a fast driver that is not realising his potential. They will work with him to ensure he does.

Can't read anything in there that says they are ... ummm... neglegting him ;)

[jens]

Heikki's raw pace has been questioned here.

I personally think he has some psychological problems (like Hamilton had). Recall Hockenheim qualifying. He was making mistakes on almost every flying lap. HK in some way may seem like a "softer" character, who needs 100% team support and confidence to fulfill his full potential. He may feel he hasn't deserved the McLaren drive 100%, but got it more due to circumstances (there were rumours like McL was more interested in some other guys). He may think something like "I really need to push hard and prove that I'm worthy of McLaren drive", instead of which the attitude should me more like "I know I'm good - I just drive my race and results will come". Such transition has to be found.

At the start of 2007 Kovalainen was quite erratic too as the expectations were high. He found his form in the second half of 2007 and remember - at the start of 2008 season he was quite quick too by managing to outqualify Hamilton on a couple of occasions and in races was closer to LH than he is now. But after the wave of unluck he has lost pace. It's strange because he should be more adapted to the car than he was at the start of the season. Something doesn't seem right to me here and hence I think Heikki is more capable than what he is showing at the moment.

In the last races Hamilton has seemed free of psychological pressure. It has seemed like he has really enjoyed playing with the field by destroying them and inferior strategies and critical situations (Germany) have actually given him an extra boost of confidence to show his superiority. This is something Heikki has to reach.

[Knock-on]

Heikki's raw pace has been questioned here.

I personally think he has some psychological problems (like Hamilton had). Recall Hockenheim qualifying. He was making mistakes on almost every flying lap. HK in some way may seem like a "softer" character, who needs 100% team support and confidence to fulfill his full potential. He may feel he hasn't deserved the McLaren drive 100%, but got it more due to circumstances (there were rumours like McL was more interested in some other guys). He may think something like "I really need to push hard and prove that I'm worthy of McLaren drive", instead of which the attitude should me more like "I know I'm good - I just drive my race and results will come". Such transition has to be found.

At the start of 2007 Kovalainen was quite erratic too as the expectations were high. He found his form in the second half of 2007 and remember - at the start of 2008 season he was quite quick too by managing to outqualify Hamilton on a couple of occasions and in races was closer to LH than he is now. But after the wave of unluck he has lost pace. It's strange because he should be more adapted to the car than he was at the start of the season. Something doesn't seem right to me here and hence I think Heikki is more capable than what he is showing at the moment.

In the last races Hamilton has seemed free of psychological pressure. It has seemed like he has really enjoyed playing with the field by destroying them and inferior strategies and critical situations (Germany) have actually given him an extra boost of confidence to show his superiority. This is something Heikki has to reach.

Couldn't agree with you more.

I like Hekki and the 2 drivers seem to Gel well together.

We know Hekki is quick but he's had a bit of bad luck for a couple of races and it's got to him.

Lewis is, as you say, riding the crest of the wave at the moment and Hekki is struggleing. A lot of this is mindset IMHO. Lewis has found a groove where he just seems to get faster the less he tries where Hekki is going slower the more effort he puts in.

For sure, the McLaren is a car that lends itself to a quick driver on the edge but overdrive it, and it doesn't respond well. It's a real drivers car and a pilot that has confidence in it will excell.

Take Germany. Hekki needed to have more downforce on the front to have confidence to pull it round where Lewis was confident that it would turn in and hold speed and any under / oversteer could be corrected by the driver.

That's fine on a qualifying lap but Hekki needs to have the confidence to translate into the race.

[ioan]

Oh sure, roll your eyes. Here I am trying to help you X-Filers out and that's the thanks I get! That's how Dennis communicated the team orders to Heikki. The little green men travel in a different dimension. Only the McLaren team can see them. And they run real fast. Ron gave them the word. They ran out onto the track and jumped on top of Heikki's car and screamed "Now Heikki! NOW!!!". Did you notice how suddenly he moved out of the way? Well, if a little green man had his junk pushed up in the visor of your helmet, yelling at you, I bet you'd make a sudden move too.

I've switched sides. I'm with you guys now. Dirty rotten, cheating cheaters! Green men lovers!!! Stay strong. We know what happened, don't we?

:rolleyes:

[ioan]

Come someone give me a source of Heikki complaining about this?

Finnish member posted this after Heikki's interview on Finnish broadcaster.
His post is on the very first page of this thread, still most people are willing to ignore what Heikki said and say they are no proofs!
Hypocrites!

[Knock-on]

Finnish member posted this after Heikki's interview on Finnish broadcaster.
His post is on the very first page of this thread, still most people are willing to ignore what Heikki said and say they are no proofs!
Hypocrites!

Opinion or fact :p :

Is there a quote or transcript or is it rumour.

Actually, if you read the article, it says no such thing.

Martin says that Hekki is a fast driver that is not realising his potential. They will work with him to ensure he does.

Can't read anything in there that says they are ... ummm... neglegting him ;)

You know, I thought exactly the same thing. 'Neglecting' is the wrong adjective.

My point was that, not so long ago, Mclaren were praising themselves for having 'rebuilt' Kovalianen.

[PolePosition_1]

Finnish member posted this after Heikki's interview on Finnish broadcaster.
His post is on the very first page of this thread, still most people are willing to ignore what Heikki said and say they are no proofs!
Hypocrites!

I've looked through the first page, and I couldn't find a link.

Will you find this link and post it please?

[ioan]

I've looked through the first page, and I couldn't find a link.

Will you find this link and post it please?

Maybe you can post a link to a live interview that happened 9 days ago on a Finnish TV broadcast. If uyou can then please do so, if you can't please stop talking nonsense.

[mstillhere]

Also, I can comfirm 100% the team did not tell Heikki to move over. Because thats breaking the rules.

McLaren breaking the rules? I have never heard of such thing!! :) :) :) :)

[mstillhere]

Actually, if you read the article, it says no such thing.

Martin says that Hekki is a fast driver that is not realising his potential. They will work with him to ensure he does.

Can't read anything in there that says they are ... ummm... neglegting him ;)

Reading about it? It's rigth in front of your eyes! Being 6th (6th with a car like that!!) and only seeing Lewis going 1.3 seconds faster than Ferrari while Kovi, with the exact same car, RIGHT? seems he's driving a mule, I think there is some thing huge here that you don't see only because you CHOOSE not to see it. If you don't call negletting him what do you call it? Oh wait...I got it..it's Kovi not having discovered the full potential of the car although only a couple of weeks ago it was Kovi that was doing much better than Lewis in both qualifing and the race. Now, all of the sudden, Kovi does not know the car. Hum....Sherlock, Sherlock.........

[PolePosition_1]

Maybe you can post a link to a live interview that happened 9 days ago on a Finnish TV broadcast. If uyou can then please do so, if you can't please stop talking nonsense.


All due respect, you posted "Finnish member posted this after Heikki's interview on Finnish broadcaster. His post is on the very first page of this thread".

That does imply the person had posted a link. I apologise if I misunderstood your post.

But back to argument, I can't help but feel if he had said this, websites (not Planet-F1.com etc, but respectable ones) would have picked up on this. They haven't -so find it hard to believe.

Sorry.

[PolePosition_1]

McLaren breaking the rules? I have never heard of such thing!! :) :) :) :)


I'm not saying they've never broken the rules. But I'm saying if they had made a direct order, they'd have been caught through radio communication, and punished.

They ain't been punished, so must not have told him to move over. Just let him know of the situation, as Ron Dennis said in link you posted earlier in this topic :)

[PolePosition_1]

Reading about it? It's rigth in front of your eyes! Being 6th (6th with a car like that!!) and only seeing Lewis going 1.3 seconds faster than Ferrari while Kovi, with the exact same car, RIGHT? seems he's driving a mule, I think there is some thing huge here that you don't see only because you CHOOSE not to see it. If you don't call negletting him what do you call it? Oh wait...I got it..it's Kovi not having discovered the full potential of the car although only a couple of weeks ago it was Kovi that was doing much better than Lewis in both qualifing and the race. Now, all of the sudden, Kovi does not know the car. Hum....Sherlock, Sherlock.........

Erm....Heikki was better than Lewis at the British GP in the race?

With comments like that, how do you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously?

[ioan]

But back to argument, I can't help but feel if he had said this, websites (not Planet-F1.com etc, but respectable ones) would have picked up on this. They haven't -so find it hard to believe.

Sorry.

Web sites, even respectable ones, very very rarely provide transcripts of the drivers comments from Finnish broadcasters, might be because the journos don't speak Finnish.

However we have often got information through the Finnish forum members, information that was coming from the Finnish media, and in 99.99% of the cases it proved to be correct.

I'm sorry too, because you seem a reasonable forumer, still you dismiss what other members posted just because the anglophone media didn't pick it up because obvious language shortcomings.

[Dave B]

When you post something on the basis of what a forum member thinks they've heard, then fail to provide any evidence, you must understand if some people are sceptical.

[mstillhere]

Erm....Heikki was better than Lewis at the British GP in the race?

With comments like that, how do you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously?

Please don't take my "a couple of weeks ago" too literally. I was referring to the beginning of the championship. And please don't make me go to cut and paste the info from the FIA web site and post it here to support what I am saying. Thank you.

[mstillhere]

Web sites, even respectable ones, very very rarely provide transcripts of the drivers comments from Finnish broadcasters, might be because the journos don't speak Finnish.

However we have often got information through the Finnish forum members, information that was coming from the Finnish media, and in 99.99% of the cases it proved to be correct.

I'm sorry too, because you seem a reasonable forumer, still you dismiss what other members posted just because the anglophone media didn't pick it up because obvious language shortcomings.

Don't pay attention Ion. These are the same people who say that the rumors about Ferrari wanting to make an all Italian team is true altough they don't have a shred of a web site to support their claim. As I mentioned their specialty is in flip flopping.

[Thor]

Yes it was illegal ,a la Schumacher-Barrichello a first class style

[ioan]

When you post something on the basis of what a forum member thinks they've heard...

I think you are pushing it too far now, I wasn't expecting you to say such things about fellow forum members. :down:

[ioan]

Don't pay attention Ion. These are the same people who say that the rumors about Ferrari wanting to make an all Italian team is true altough they don't have a shred of a web site to support their claim. As I mentioned their specialty is in flip flopping.

You're right, double standards are the standard around here, since ever.

If it's Ferrari it's bad, if it's McLaren it's the best thing to be done.
If it's Max than he should be thrown out, if it's Bernie then it business like always.

And so on and so forth.

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm not saying they've never broken the rules. But I'm saying if they had made a direct order, they'd have been caught through radio communication, and punished.

They ain't been punished, so must not have told him to move over. Just let him know of the situation, as Ron Dennis said in link you posted earlier in this topic :)

Exactly. There has apparently been no proof of wrongdoing presented to, or found by the FIA. And without proof, all you have are these armchair FIA delegates and team managers (some wearing tinfoil hats) claiming that they KNOW what happened.

As for this supposed "proof", if Kovalainen had made some sort of damning statements during an interview (in Finnish or not), who with the slightest amount of common sense would believe that the FIA wouldn't have been all over that like a cheap suit?

[jjanicke]

What if HK kept Hmilton behind himself long enough to deny him the chance to catch Piquet?!

There are plenty of questions to be answered, and plenty of scenarios to come up with.

In the end, I'm all for team orders.
However I'm against hypocrisy!


i'll try to keep it short, it seems the problem is not that order, but the fact that "McLaren fans" have defended the move(apparently thats what everyone who disagrees with "Ferrari fans" must be, i'll also take "Hypocrites" instead of Mac fans ;) )

the way i see it, there is a rule against team orders, and that came around as a direct response to Austria 2002 where the result was switched to no net benefit of the team. The rule may be worded poorly, but the intention IMO is to prevent teams from switching their drivers as they see fit to gain a couple of points for one driver to the detriment of the other, especially at the point in a year when the points made little difference.

it appears there was certainly at least a request for Heikki to let a faster Lewis past, however it was clear that Lewis should not have been behind Heikki, that he was clearly the faster driver on the day. had they not made that request Lewis may not have got past, or not in time to catch and pass the other 2. If Heikki had been on a pace to catch and pass the leaders then this is a different story, but releasing the faster of the 2 cars happens somewhere in the field in most races, especially when they are on different strategies, or when the net result is a gain for the team - i don't see threads all over the place calling rule breakages for those - a little Hypocritical no?

it seems pretty reasonable to suggest that if Heikki had not moved over (ordered or not) then McLaren would have had a worse result than they finally acheived. this is clearly not in contravention to the spirit of the team order rules, presumabley the other teams (Ferrari and Renault who were directly affected) think the same as they are not protesting, the FIA have not seen fit to investigate. i would also expect any other team to do pretty much the same, and also for no-one to bat an eyelid.

if we are going to get excited about this now, start bandying around "hypocrites" and double standards, then perhaps we should start with Brazil last year, where a faster Massa moved over to let Kimi past - not net gain in the result for the team, but a gain for the driver? however there is no reason to, it was a perfectly reasonable call given the circumstances. if we are going to examine every decision to the veryt leter of the regulations then there is no point in watching, every situation has its own unique set of motives, circumstances and outcomes - F1 is never going to be black and white, particularly when looking at sporting regs rather than technical ones.

if there was a clear rule breach there would be something being done, all there actually is are a few people who like an opportunity to play the downtrodden and imagine what the outcome may have been if the situation were reversed, based on an assumpition of peoples motives in a quite different set of circumstances several years ago, yet it is the "McLaren fans" who are apparently losing credibility. isn't it time for common sense to prevail?

if you disagree with the move then fine, and i'd hope you'd do the same regardless of the teams involved. if you think this is a situation that would be perfectly reaosnable and to be expected regardless of the team then fine.

Quite amazing assumptions. Let's look at the facts. Hamilton catches and passes HK with ease, then catches and passes Massa with ease, to then catch and pass Jr with ease to take the win. And all the wile HK looses ground to the top three.

Where's the conspiracy. How would Lewis have been held up by HK when the clearly faster Massa couldn't hold Lewis behind at all? And to top it all off no one has any quotes, articles, press releases, video's, etc reporting that mclaren told HK to move over.

Label me as you like, but I sure one could use this thread as evidence to support the existance of message board "witch-hunts". ;) Keep digging, there's nothing there!

Move on!

[Mifune]

You know, I thought exactly the same thing. 'Neglecting' is the wrong adjective.

My point was that, not so long ago, Mclaren were praising themselves for having 'rebuilt' Kovalianen.


Is "neglecting" really an adjective?

[ArrowsFA1]

My point was that, not so long ago, Mclaren were praising themselves for having 'rebuilt' Kovalianen.
Ah yes, but Rome wasn't built in a day :) I'm sure Heikki will come good.

[Dave B]

I think you are pushing it too far now, I wasn't expecting you to say such things about fellow forum members. :down:

Sorry fella but you've given us third-hand information with no way of backing it up. This comment was apparently on Finnish TV yet it's not appeared on YouTube, no other news organisation has reported it, nobody else on any other F1 website or forum has mentioned it, and even Heikki himself has said nothing of the sort since.

If you don't understand why I'm sceptical then there's really no getting through to you.

[Shalafi]

Sorry fella but you've given us third-hand information with no way of backing it up. This comment was apparently on Finnish TV yet it's not appeared on YouTube, no other news organisation has reported it, nobody else on any other F1 website or forum has mentioned it, and even Heikki himself has said nothing of the sort since.

If you don't understand why I'm sceptical then there's really no getting through to you.

Here is a link if you understand finnish . ;)


http://www.turunsanomat.fi/urheilu/?ts=1,3:1006:0:0,4:6:0:1:2008-07-21,104:6:554099,1:0:0:0:0:0:


Well, I can help. This text from that article:

"Kovalaiselle taistelutta antautuminen oli niin kiusallista, että kisan jälkeen kirosanat lentelivät ja mies sadatteli, ettei saanut ajaa kilpaa."

Translation:
"Surrendering without a fight was such a thing for Kovalainen that after the race he was furious and swored because he was not allowed to race (against Hamilton)."

That was immediately after the race, when he later had cooled down he admitted that Lewis was much quicker and it was right thing to do to let him pass. Heikkis problem is tires, Lewis handles them much better and doesnt have a problem at all with them. Heikki usually manages them well in qualifying but has big problems in race and cant push as hard as he would like.

[Dave B]

Here is a link if you understand finnish . ;)
Thank you. That's all I was asking for all along.

It seems to clarify that Kovy, when not talking in the heat of the moment, knows that it was a rational decision as he didn't have anywhere near Lewis' pace.

[wedge]

Thank you. That's all I was asking for all along.

It seems to clarify that Kovy, when not talking in the heat of the moment, knows that it was a rational decision as he didn't have anywhere near Lewis' pace.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like McLaren spin doctoring. Probably told Kovy to reiterate his comments.

[Dave B]

Well rather than us sitting around asking whether the pass was legal, perhaps we should ask ourselves why the stewards took no action and none of the other 9 teams raised any kind of protest.

[ioan]

Thank you. That's all I was asking for all along.

It seems to clarify that Kovy, when not talking in the heat of the moment, knows that it was a rational decision as he didn't have anywhere near Lewis' pace.

So, you can stop ridiculing people around here now?!

[Knock-on]

Well rather than us sitting around asking whether the pass was legal, perhaps we should ask ourselves why the stewards took no action and none of the other 9 teams raised any kind of protest.

Is that one of those "Hypothetical" questions I've heard so much about? :laugh:

[ioan]

Here is a link if you understand finnish . ;)


http://www.turunsanomat.fi/urheilu/?ts=1,3:1006:0:0,4:6:0:1:2008-07-21,104:6:554099,1:0:0:0:0:0:


Well, I can help. This text from that article:

"Kovalaiselle taistelutta antautuminen oli niin kiusallista, että kisan jälkeen kirosanat lentelivät ja mies sadatteli, ettei saanut ajaa kilpaa."

Translation:
"Surrendering without a fight was such a thing for Kovalainen that after the race he was furious and swored because he was not allowed to race (against Hamilton)."


Thanks for that! :)

[Knock-on]

Here is a link if you understand finnish . ;)


http://www.turunsanomat.fi/urheilu/?ts=1,3:1006:0:0,4:6:0:1:2008-07-21,104:6:554099,1:0:0:0:0:0:


Well, I can help. This text from that article:

"Kovalaiselle taistelutta antautuminen oli niin kiusallista, että kisan jälkeen kirosanat lentelivät ja mies sadatteli, ettei saanut ajaa kilpaa."

Translation:
"Surrendering without a fight was such a thing for Kovalainen that after the race he was furious and swored because he was not allowed to race (against Hamilton)."

That was immediately after the race, when he later had cooled down he admitted that Lewis was much quicker and it was right thing to do to let him pass. Heikkis problem is tires, Lewis handles them much better and doesnt have a problem at all with them. Heikki usually manages them well in qualifying but has big problems in race and cant push as hard as he would like.

Sorry for being a bit dense but what did he actually say?

From what I can see, it is an opinion and not a quote.

Was Hekki actually referring to McLaren asking him to move over or that he wasn't able to race or that the car was not to his liking so he couldn't push as hard as he would like or that little green men were jumping on his nose cone or, or, or?

Surely, if thousands of Fins saw Heikki saying this, someone should be able to offer a accurate translation of what he actually said?

[ioan]

Well rather than us sitting around asking whether the pass was legal, perhaps we should ask ourselves why the stewards took no action and none of the other 9 teams raised any kind of protest.

Teams never raise questions about team orders because they are not hypocrites, as they all use them. Something we can't say about lots of members of this forum, whom would have yelled about it day and night if it was Ferrari (and there is proof to that), but they say it was normal, because it was McLaren!

I think this is the answer to your question.

[ioan]

Sorry for being a bit dense but what did he actually say?

From what I can see, it is an opinion and not a quote.

Was Hekki actually referring to McLaren asking him to move over or that he wasn't able to race or that the car was not to his liking so he couldn't push as hard as he would like or that little green men were jumping on his nose cone or, or, or?

Surely, if thousands of Fins saw Heikki saying this, someone should be able to offer a accurate translation of what he actually said?

Hypocrisy at it's highest "density"! :laugh:

[Knock-on]

Hypocrisy at it's highest "density"! :laugh:

Rather than an unfounded personal attack, try posting something of value :p :

[Bagwan]

He is described as "furious" , and swearing after the race .
That would seem to indicate he was unhappy with the decision , and that would point to it not being the decision he would have preferred .

That points to an outside influence , his team , indicating that they expect him to act in a certain way .

He clearly did , and it seems his emotions were calmed once he met with his team afterwards .
That indicates to me that he was shown the data , and then understood why he was told Lewis was faster .



"Lewis is faster . Let him through ."
Tou can say the first three words , but not the second three .

It was a legal team order . How long will a driver that dis-obeys last ?
Ask Fernando . His contract at McLaren read that he would race there this year .


Stupid , stupid , stupid rule .

[ArrowsFA1]

Which McLaren driver was in the best position to achieve the best result for the team, or did they both have a chance to win the race?

Given that Heikki was 4th after the so-called team order, and remained 5th to the end of the race, while Lewis moved up to 1st ,the answer appears obvious. Given that Heikki's fastest race lap was 0.5s slower than Lewis the answer is even more obvious.

This was not a team running 1-2 earning maximum points, regardless of which driver was ahead, ordering one driver to sacrifice his position in the interests of the other. This was a team that had one driver with the opportunity to win. Had it been the former then the FIA should have penalised McLaren. As it was the latter they rightly took no action IMHO.

[Shalafi]

Sorry for being a bit dense but what did he actually say?

From what I can see, it is an opinion and not a quote.

Was Hekki actually referring to McLaren asking him to move over or that he wasn't able to race or that the car was not to his liking so he couldn't push as hard as he would like or that little green men were jumping on his nose cone or, or, or?

Surely, if thousands of Fins saw Heikki saying this, someone should be able to offer a accurate translation of what he actually said?

Heh...you dont give up easily! :) He was angry because team "informed him that Lewis is quicker than him"...

As he said:

- Ajatukset olivat sekaisin kisan jälkeen, Kovalainen selitti purkaustaan.

free translation:
- My head was a mess after the race, Kovalainen explained his outburst

Was that good enough explanation? Heikki also has admitted that it was right thing to do to let Lewis past and he just has to sort his own problems because if he is quick enough, he can win races.

Time will tell...

[Knock-on]

Heh...you dont give up easily! :) He was angry because team "informed him that Lewis is quicker than him"...

As he said:

- Ajatukset olivat sekaisin kisan jälkeen, Kovalainen selitti purkaustaan.

free translation:
- My head was a mess after the race, Kovalainen explained his outburst

Was that good enough explanation? Heikki also has admitted that it was right thing to do to let Lewis past and he just has to sort his own problems because if he is quick enough, he can win races.

Time will tell...

If I was Hekki, I would be annoyed that I was 1/2 a second slower a lap.

Heikki needs to get his head straight and work on getting the best out of the car with his engineers. I'm sure he will.

As far as team orders go, I really fail to see the issue.

When Lewis was prevented from having a go at Alonso, I thought it the right decision as they were 1 and 2. Any attempt an Monnaco with those two would have ended in disaster.

With Germany, it made sense for Heikki to be told Lewis was flying to avoid an avoidable accident. As it was, Heikki making it easy for Lewis probably changed nothing and lead to the best possible team result for McLaren.

[PolePosition_1]

Web sites, even respectable ones, very very rarely provide transcripts of the drivers comments from Finnish broadcasters, might be because the journos don't speak Finnish.

However we have often got information through the Finnish forum members, information that was coming from the Finnish media, and in 99.99% of the cases it proved to be correct.

I'm sorry too, because you seem a reasonable forumer, still you dismiss what other members posted just because the anglophone media didn't pick it up because obvious language shortcomings.

I think we may have to agree to disagree then.

The link provided gave no quote of what Heikki said, just their interpretations of his reaction. considering its regarding a Finnish driver in the Finnish press, I wouldn't really see it as an objective opinion. Its like asking the ITV-F1 crew about Hamilton - its going to be very biased!

At end of the day, we have world news, coming from different languages all around the world, if it had enough credibility, it would have made it into the British press. So I'm sorry, but I'd rather base my opinions on known facts, not tabloid Finnish papers and hear'say.

Your entitled to your opinion, as am I, I've explained myself above - please don't take offence :) .

[PolePosition_1]

Please don't take my "a couple of weeks ago" too literally. I was referring to the beginning of the championship. And please don't make me go to cut and paste the info from the FIA web site and post it here to support what I am saying. Thank you.

No offence, but a couple of weeks ago and 5 months ago are very different. You really should make yourself clearer in future.

If you could go and cut and paste info to support your claim it'd be very much appreciated :) .

From my memory Lewis has beaten Heikki more times than not, even at beginning on season. Though Heikki was definately a near match for Lewis. I don't think he had the better of him.

So any reliable sources supporting your claim much appreciated :) .

[PolePosition_1]

Don't pay attention Ion. These are the same people who say that the rumors about Ferrari wanting to make an all Italian team is true altough they don't have a shred of a web site to support their claim. As I mentioned their specialty is in flip flopping.


Erm.....hate to point it out - but its your guys arguing a case without a source.

I've got sources and actualy FACTS backing up my view of events.

[PolePosition_1]

You're right, double standards are the standard around here, since ever.

If it's Ferrari it's bad, if it's McLaren it's the best thing to be done.
If it's Max than he should be thrown out, if it's Bernie then it business like always.

And so on and so forth.


Erm.....I don't remember a big deal being made out of Massa letting Kimi past last year at Brazil, effectively deciding the title.

McLaren fans and majority of F1 fans made a big deal of when Ferrari had a strict No.1 policy with MS. Because it went against the very basic principles of sport.

[PolePosition_1]

You're right, double standards are the standard around here, since ever.

If it's Ferrari it's bad, if it's McLaren it's the best thing to be done.
If it's Max than he should be thrown out, if it's Bernie then it business like always.

And so on and so forth.


Erm.....I don't remember a big deal being made out of Massa letting Kimi past last year at Brazil, effectively deciding the title.

McLaren fans and majority of F1 fans made a big deal of when Ferrari had a strict No.1 policy with MS. Because it went against the very basic principles of sport.

But if you look at since they've adopted an =1 policy, when team orders have been imposed, no one makes a fuss. Because they're done in a sporting and reasonable manner.

[wedge]

Teams never raise questions about team orders because they are not hypocrites, as they all use them. Something we can't say about lots of members of this forum, whom would have yelled about it day and night if it was Ferrari (and there is proof to that), but they say it was normal, because it was McLaren!

Nothing to do with hypocrisy, IMO, just an excuse to bash McLaren/Ferrari

Although team orders are accepted and a necessary evil, there comes a point where the implementation can cause disrepute - which is what happened in Austria 2002, no where near the halfway stage of the season. If they wanted Schumi to win then do it at the middle of the race, not at the last moment.

There comes a point during a season where its accepted for team orders just as in 1999, let alone 1979!

Nothing to do with hypocrisy, IMO, just an excuse to bash McLaren/Ferrari

Although team orders are accepted and a necessary evil, there comes a point where the implementation can cause disrepute - which is what happened in Austria 2002, no where near the halfway stage of the season. If they wanted Schumi to win then do it at the middle of the race, not at the last moment.

There comes a point during a season where its accepted for team orders just as in 1999, let alone 1979!

I understand that viewpoint, but then it can also be argued that by slowing the Number 2 down on the last corner, rather than using a shambolic running-wide scenario or straight-forwardly dishonest 'brake problem' ,shows to the world that actually he was faster and that the team-order wasn't being hidden.

[Knock-on]

I understand that viewpoint, but then it can also be argued that by slowing the Number 2 down on the last corner, rather than using a shambolic running-wide scenario or straight-forwardly dishonest 'brake problem' ,shows to the world that actually he was faster and that the team-order wasn't being hidden.

I don't think it's worth going back over "that" incident as most people see it as very different.

I don't mind if a team release a faster driver from behind his slower team mate. If you have 2 team mates battleing, then it slows both down and makes them vulnerable from behind.

Similarly, if a driver is out of the WDC hunt and his team mate is in the hunt, I don't see it as unreasonable if the driver doesn't defend his position "too" rigorously.

[ioan]

I think we may have to agree to disagree then.

The link provided gave no quote of what Heikki said, just their interpretations of his reaction. considering its regarding a Finnish driver in the Finnish press, I wouldn't really see it as an objective opinion. Its like asking the ITV-F1 crew about Hamilton - its going to be very biased!

:laugh:

That's a good one. The english press won't print it cause they don't know about it or don't understand it, so we call it a biased Finnish article!

I think we should only take for objective what the Spanish press says about Lewis after all the british are clearly biased and not worth reading. :rotflmao:

[ioan]

I understand that viewpoint, but then it can also be argued that by slowing the Number 2 down on the last corner, rather than using a shambolic running-wide scenario or straight-forwardly dishonest 'brake problem' ,shows to the world that actually he was faster and that the team-order wasn't being hidden.

Yep, and they also owned up to it!
Something Ron "integrity smug face" Dennis wouldn't do, no matter the price to pay for it.
And the McLaren fans are clearly the same, no matter what you put in front of their eyes they will quickly close them and do as nothing ever happened. Hypocrites!

PS: Just to remind everyone I'm not against team order, just against double standards and hypocrisy! :)

[Knock-on]

Yep, and they also owned up to it!
Something Ron "integrity smug face" Dennis wouldn't do, no matter the price to pay for it.
And the McLaren fans are clearly the same, no matter what you put in front of their eyes they will quickly close them and do as nothing ever happened. Hypocrites!

PS: Just to remind everyone I'm not against team order, just against double standards and hypocrisy! :)

So ioan, when McLaren asked if a certain movable device was illegal and the FIA claimed it was, then that's one thing.

However, the fact that the device was actually fitted on a Ferrari which the FIA had passed lead you to claim they had done nothing wrong.

Double standards and Hypocrisy no?

In this example, the FIA monitored McLarens radio and found nothing wrong but you seem to be alluding that they have broken some rule or another with no proof apart from your blind hatred of Ron Denis?

Double standards and Hypocrisy no?

Actually, you should be congratulated because not only have you demonstrated double standards and hypocrisy by by proclaiming your stance against such traits, have superbly demonstrated the meaning or irony :laugh:

[ioan]

So ioan, when McLaren asked if a certain movable device was illegal and the FIA claimed it was, then that's one thing.

However, the fact that the device was actually fitted on a Ferrari which the FIA had passed lead you to claim they had done nothing wrong.

Double standards and Hypocrisy no?

So we shift from team orders to movable devices?! So be it, however I remember from where we discussed the movable devices in depth that 99% of the forum members, you included, can't make the difference between movable and flexible!


In this example, the FIA monitored McLarens radio and found nothing wrong but you seem to be alluding that they have broken some rule or another with no proof apart from your blind hatred of Ron Denis?

Double standards and Hypocrisy no?

bla bla bla, heiki said th eteam prevented him from racing Lewis, that's team orders. However in my previous post, the one you are quoting, I said I'm not against team orders. So I fail to see where is the hypocrisy you are talking about, or were you talking about your behavior?!

Hatred towards Ron? No, I actually pity him.



Actually, you should be congratulated because not only have you demonstrated double standards and hypocrisy by by proclaiming your stance against such traits, have superbly demonstrated the meaning or irony :laugh:

I'm yet to see where I'm being hypocritical, as long as I said I'm not against team orders, but against your hypocrisy!

Maybe you don't understand what the word HYPOCRISY means, in this case please do try to learn about it before accusing me, you hypocrite (just take a look at your comment re Austria 2002 and compare it to what you said in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about).

[Knock-on]

So we shift from team orders to movable devices?! So be it, however I remember from where we discussed the movable devices in depth that 99% of the forum members, you included, can't make the difference between movable and flexible!

I take it you can back that up, as per your signature.

Oh dear, you cant. Hypocrite :laugh:


bla bla bla, heiki said th eteam prevented him from racing Lewis, that's team orders. However in my previous post, the one you are quoting, I said I'm not against team orders. So I fail to see where is the hypocrisy you are talking about, or were you talking about your behavior?!

I am yet to see a transcript where Heikki says "McLaren prevented me from racing Lewis".

If you can provide one, then fine but I don't know how Heikki could race Lewis when he was going slower? The best he could do was stop him from passing and as faster drivers like Jnr and your revered Massa couldn't what hope had Heikki of doing better?

If I remember correctly, the quote you are claiming supports your case is where Heikki allegedly says that the team told him that Lewis was faster. Even by the unsubstantiated quote you refer to, there is nothing about team orders.

Yet, you say this is team orders with no proof :laugh:


Hatred towards Ron? No, I actually pity him.

I'm yet to see where I'm being hypocritical, as long as I said I'm not against team orders, but against your hypocrisy!

Maybe you don't understand what the word HYPOCRISY means, in this case please do try to learn about it before accusing me, you hypocrite (just take a look at your comment re Austria 2002 and compare it to what you said in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about).

I'm afraid that I rarely understand what you're talking about.

I didn't agree with 2002 and nor did most people including your friend Max because a faster driver slowed to let a slower driver through.

In Germany, a slower driver got out of the way of his faster team mate who then went on to overtake 2 rivals and win the race.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, even for yourself ioan.

[ioan]

I take it you can back that up, as per your signature.

Oh dear, you cant. Hypocrite :laugh:

Why do you think I can't? There is a complete thread about the matter, if not 2 or more! So don't make yourself look like a clown. :laugh:



I am yet to see a transcript where Heikki says "McLaren prevented me from racing Lewis".

If you can provide one, then fine but I don't know how Heikki could race Lewis when he was going slower? The best he could do was stop him from passing and as faster drivers like Jnr and your revered Massa couldn't what hope had Heikki of doing better?

If I remember correctly, the quote you are claiming supports your case is where Heikki allegedly says that the team told him that Lewis was faster. Even by the unsubstantiated quote you refer to, there is nothing about team orders.

Yet, you say this is team orders with no proof :laugh:


There were people who posted what they found in the Finnish media, still you ignore it because it doesn't suit your biased opinion.
And than you say no one has proof, you clown!



I'm afraid that I rarely understand what you're talking about.

That's normal, with your level. :laugh:



I didn't agree with 2002 and nor did most people including your friend Max because a faster driver slowed to let a slower driver through.

Well, you seem to agree now, don't you see it as hypocrisy?



In Germany, a slower driver got out of the way of his faster team mate who then went on to overtake 2 rivals and win the race.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, even for yourself ioan.

It was team orders, no matter how you turn it. I'm not against it, but it baffles me that you lot of McCheat fans chose to close the eyes and wash your brains.

I think I'll stop discussing any serious matters with such people as you, whom only laugh about whatever you bring to the discussion.

It's like that saying: "Don't ever argue with an idiot, he will bring you down to his level and beat you with his experience!", or something along those lines.

[jjanicke]

Ioan I suggest keeping the personal "you clown" comments to yourself. If nothing else you are hypocritical with your attacks on fellow "clown" forum members all the while ranting about not making personal attacks on fellow forum members. Act as you preach and perhaps you'll gain a little respect from your fellow forum members, or just continue down the bumpy road you already chose. It's only up to you.

Anyway back to the thread. Does anyone have any concrete (not circumstantial) evidence of team orders yet?

[jens]

Comparing 2008 Germany and 2002 Austria events and saying one was right and the other wasn't, isn't quite proper IMO.

Back in 2002 the team orders were not prohibited yet and hence there was nothing illegal. Yes, it may have been unfair to Rubens to lose the win, but if Ferrari felt that they needed to give some extra points for Michael to ensure his WDC lead (by that point we had had only 6 races and everything in F1 can change quickly, his title wasn't secured by then), then it's hard to disapprove with their decision. After all, Michael made a "payback" at the end of 2002, handing Hungarian, Italian and US Grand Prix wins to Rubens, so all in all RB has gained more wins than MS with the help of team-mate!

McLaren made the right decision in Germany, especially as Heikki seems out of the championship contention anyway and it doesn't make much difference for him if he gained one point by blocking or not (if for Lewis there were more points to lose).

I don't think we should have so much discussion about this topic for some many pages here.

[wedge]

I understand that viewpoint, but then it can also be argued that by slowing the Number 2 down on the last corner, rather than using a shambolic running-wide scenario or straight-forwardly dishonest 'brake problem' ,shows to the world that actually he was faster and that the team-order wasn't being hidden.

Well I don't think you can put huge blame on McLaren themselves, the drivers takes some blame as well. It's a bit like 1982 San Marino GP - Ferrari told the drivers to slow down, Pironi thought he was still free to race whereas Gilles thought it meant to hold station.

DC recently mentioned he perhaps should've been more selfish in his career. He mentioned that Australian GP he could've ignored those orders and won the race himself.

No one knows the exactly how those orders should've been implemented. Whomever made the call to Heikki but there is onus on Heikki to make up his own mind on how to exactly implement those orders. IMO it looked like Heikki was quite hesitant but decided to let Lewis through at the last moment.

The person who really knows is Heikki.

I don't agree with Ioan and his hypocrisy/McLaren conspiracy theories. People have different interpretations on the implementation and you tifosi are a fickle group to deal with! :p

[ioan]

Comparing 2008 Germany and 2002 Austria events and saying one was right and the other wasn't, isn't quite proper IMO.

Back in 2002 the team orders were not prohibited yet and hence there was nothing illegal. Yes, it may have been unfair to Rubens to lose the win, but if Ferrari felt that they needed to give some extra points for Michael to ensure his WDC lead (by that point we had had only 6 races and everything in F1 can change quickly, his title wasn't secured by then), then it's hard to disapprove with their decision. After all, Michael made a "payback" at the end of 2002, handing Hungarian, Italian and US Grand Prix wins to Rubens, so all in all RB has gained more wins than MS with the help of team-mate!

McLaren made the right decision in Germany, especially as Heikki seems out of the championship contention anyway and it doesn't make much difference for him if he gained one point by blocking or not (if for Lewis there were more points to lose).

I don't think we should have so much discussion about this topic for some many pages here.

Someone who talks something that makes sense! :up:

[ioan]

I don't agree with Ioan and his hypocrisy/McLaren conspiracy theories. People have different interpretations on the implementation and you tifosi are a fickle group to deal with! :p

We might be a fickle group to deal with, but we are no hypocrites and we are able to judge and criticize the ones we support.
The day I see this from the McLaren fans is not near, not at all. There are Mc fans who, even after the team publicly acknowledged that they did something wrong last year, still say that McLaren were not guilty. And you call us difficult and fickle. :rolleyes:

[wedge]

We might be a fickle group to deal with, but we are no hypocrites and we are able to judge and criticize the ones we support.
The day I see this from the McLaren fans is not near, not at all. There are Mc fans who, even after the team publicly acknowledged that they did something wrong last year, still say that McLaren were not guilty. And you call us difficult and fickle. :rolleyes:

Well yes, the hardcore team fans are a fickle bunch.

I don't know who the McLaren fans are on the forum but the Ferrari/Schumi fans are easy to spot.

[Rollo]

At end of the day, we have world news, coming from different languages all around the world, if it had enough credibility, it would have made it into the British press. So I'm sorry, but I'd rather base my opinions on known facts, not tabloid Finnish papers and hear'say.


That's a good one. The english press won't print it cause they don't know about it or don't understand it, so we call it a biased Finnish article!

Have either of you actually bothered to do the reasearch to back this claim up though? It should in theory be simple to find such a scandalous set of commments in the Finnish tabloids.

Except that said Finnish articles don't actually exist.
http://haku.iltasanomat.fi/haku.aspx?haku=IS&hakusana=heikki&x=15&y=10
http://www.iltalehti.fi/haku/index.shtml?cof=FORID%3A11&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=heikki&sa.x=7&sa.y=11&cx=partner-pub-5390384955801438%3Ahi29lkzeata#1073

If you do a search through either Ilta-Sanomat or Iltalehti for "Hekki" and "Saskan GP" then the supposed comments still don't want to surface. The "biased" Finnish press which should be pulling for Finnish drivers in theory simply is not doing so. I therefore have no other option but to call Shenanigans on this.

SHENANIGANS! SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS

[Jag_Warrior]

Anyway back to the thread. Does anyone have any concrete (not circumstantial) evidence of team orders yet?

According to our board sleuths, Heikki spilled the beans. But everything was in Finnish. And we all know that there are only three people in the world who speak Finnish... so there's really no point in them posting it here. Course, I just happen to know one of the three people in the world who speaks Finnish. He's a long time forum member here (more a Kimi fan than a Heikki fan), who just doesn't happen to post here much anymore (gee, wonder why?)

Rather than these people being vague and making it up as they go, if there is an interview with Heikki, it should be posted here.

[PolePosition_1]

:laugh:

That's a good one. The english press won't print it cause they don't know about it or don't understand it, so we call it a biased Finnish article!

I think we should only take for objective what the Spanish press says about Lewis after all the british are clearly biased and not worth reading. :rotflmao:

The wording of that post doesn't make much sense to me I'm afraid.

English is the international language. So all news worth mentioning and has credibility will one way or another translate over to English one way or another.

I think if Heikki had said that, an English languaged based media source would have released that - as its a pretty damning interview - according to your source with no reliable link, and a source which 99% of us can't understand :) .

[PolePosition_1]

Yep, and they also owned up to it!
Something Ron "integrity smug face" Dennis wouldn't do, no matter the price to pay for it.
And the McLaren fans are clearly the same, no matter what you put in front of their eyes they will quickly close them and do as nothing ever happened. Hypocrites!

PS: Just to remind everyone I'm not against team order, just against double standards and hypocrisy! :)


Ferrari told Rubens to let MS past like 10 laps from the end. It was Rubens who decided to make them sweat and leave it till the last moment - presumably to make a point.

[PolePosition_1]

Have either of you actually bothered to do the reasearch to back this claim up though? It should in theory be simple to find such a scandalous set of commments in the Finnish tabloids.

Except that said Finnish articles don't actually exist.
http://haku.iltasanomat.fi/haku.aspx?haku=IS&hakusana=heikki&x=15&y=10
http://www.iltalehti.fi/haku/index.shtml?cof=FORID%3A11&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=heikki&sa.x=7&sa.y=11&cx=partner-pub-5390384955801438%3Ahi29lkzeata#1073

If you do a search through either Ilta-Sanomat or Iltalehti for "Hekki" and "Saskan GP" then the supposed comments still don't want to surface. The "biased" Finnish press which should be pulling for Finnish drivers in theory simply is not doing so. I therefore have no other option but to call Shenanigans on this.

SHENANIGANS! SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS

Erm - my claim is that McLaren didn't impose direct team orders. The fact they ain't been accused by the stewards would surely mean they didn't.

So my opinion is backed up by actual fact.

Regarding the double standards act - I'm going on my personal opinion, opinion is objective, there is no right and wrong opinion - we're all entitled to opinions, however I do feel some are rational and some are not. I think team orders should be used, but in a sportingly way as possible. Which is why I see situations as Austria 2002 as wrong, and Brazil 2007 or Germany 2008 as correct. Irrelevant of the team - as I've said numerous times to Iona.

But he seems happy to rant on and on and on and on about double standards, ignoring fact that Ferrari used similar orders in Brazil 2007 and no one made a fuss.

[555-04Q2]

But he seems happy to rant on and on and on and on about double standards, ignoring fact that Ferrari used similar orders in Brazil 2007 and no one made a fuss.

My post below is not aimed at you (so dont take anything posted personally :) )

Ferrari fans dont deny that Ferrari have used the tactic in the past. What gets up our goat is people massacre Ferrari when they do it, but when we complain about another team doing it, we are being "unfair" or "biased". Austria 2002 caused such a stink when there were no team rules in place, it was perfectly legal, yet look at the uproar it caused. Why not uproar this time when there are rules now governing it. All we ask is for a bit of a balance and fair play. If people are going to point a finger they must be prepared to get a finger pointed back at them.

[555-04Q2]

Anyway back to the thread. Does anyone have any concrete (not circumstantial) evidence of team orders yet?

Virtually parking it at the hairpin ala Schumi's Monaco style (while his teammate happens to be right behind him) is not evidence enough for you :?: :p :

I dont think honest Ron is about to reveal to the world what actually transpired.

[ShiftingGears]

All we ask is for a bit of a balance and fair play.


Yep, noone complained about Brazil 2007 so I see no reason why Germany 2008 should be any different.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

The team orders rule was introduced so the teams wouldn't be too tempted to make their orders appear farcical, like in 2002. Anyone who thinks that the 'team orders' rule has not been broken since then is plain stupid.

[Knock-on]

Erm - my claim is that McLaren didn't impose direct team orders. The fact they ain't been accused by the stewards would surely mean they didn't.

So my opinion is backed up by actual fact.

Regarding the double standards act - I'm going on my personal opinion, opinion is objective, there is no right and wrong opinion - we're all entitled to opinions, however I do feel some are rational and some are not. I think team orders should be used, but in a sportingly way as possible. Which is why I see situations as Austria 2002 as wrong, and Brazil 2007 or Germany 2008 as correct. Irrelevant of the team - as I've said numerous times to Iona.

But he seems happy to rant on and on and on and on about double standards, ignoring fact that Ferrari used similar orders in Brazil 2007 and no one made a fuss.

Totally agree.

People were appalled with 2002 because it was unjust and unsporting. For the record, I also disagree with DC moving over as well as there was no reason. It was silly but a stupid agreement between the drivers that should never have been.

Brazil last year and Germany this year were completely different.

Well, Heikki got his reward for being a good lapdog....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69523

[Dave B]

That's one less place for Alonso to go! :p

[ioan]

The wording of that post doesn't make much sense to me I'm afraid.

English is the international language. So all news worth mentioning and has credibility will one way or another translate over to English one way or another.

I think if Heikki had said that, an English languaged based media source would have released that - as its a pretty damning interview - according to your source with no reliable link, and a source which 99% of us can't understand :) .

English is the international language bla bla bla, go tell that to a French for example!

Or to a Chinese who never learned English. And the list could go on.

I see now the color of some so called F1 fans. If someone says something negative about their favorite team, than if it isn't said and reported in English, than it doesn't count anymore! It is a childish way of defending an argument.

As for my English, I bet it's better than your Romanian, or any other language that it happens that I speak fluently. :laugh:

[Dave B]

What I don't understand is this. Finland isn't a small country, and in motorsport terms it punches well above its weight. There's a huge amount of speciallist motorsport press in Finland as well as the rest of the world. And yet. And yet... this quote attributed to Heikki has not been reported anywhere else expect in the one link eventually provided by someone other than ioan, despite my repeated asking. In fact, it's not even a quote, it's somebody's interpretation of what he may or may not have said.

Does that not seem strange to anybody else? That such a damning quote hasn't been picked up on by the media - either in Finland or anywhere else.

Could it be, could it possibly be, that Heikki never actually said such a thing?

[ioan]

Ferrari told Rubens to let MS past like 10 laps from the end. It was Rubens who decided to make them sweat and leave it till the last moment - presumably to make a point.

Your point being?! :rolleyes:

[PolePosition_1]

English is the international language bla bla bla, go tell that to a French for example!

Or to a Chinese who never learned English. And the list could go on.

I see now the color of some so called F1 fans. If someone says something negative about their favorite team, than if it isn't said and reported in English, than it doesn't count anymore! It is a childish way of defending an argument.

As for my English, I bet it's better than your Romanian, or any other language that it happens that I speak fluently. :laugh:

Strange, on the Max topic your incredible reasonable. But as soon as someone has a different opinion to yourself you come across very childish, in similar way to MSStill or whatever his name is.

I didn't say English was the languange in France or China, I said its an international language, i.e the language which is most commonly used when nations communicate with eachother.

Taking into account the media is at the heart of globalisation, the large majority of the media population would have a very good basic understanding of the English language, if not fluent in it.

And your sterotyping me as well, I'm not a McLaren, Lewis or Heikki fan.

I just try to be objective and not let my favouritism or hatism (if thats a word) affect my judgement.

You still haven't come back to me about the Brazil 2007 inicident. No one made a fuss about it.......

[PolePosition_1]

My post below is not aimed at you (so dont take anything posted personally :) )

Ferrari fans dont deny that Ferrari have used the tactic in the past. What gets up our goat is people massacre Ferrari when they do it, but when we complain about another team doing it, we are being "unfair" or "biased". Austria 2002 caused such a stink when there were no team rules in place, it was perfectly legal, yet look at the uproar it caused. Why not uproar this time when there are rules now governing it. All we ask is for a bit of a balance and fair play. If people are going to point a finger they must be prepared to get a finger pointed back at them.

I appreciate this post was not directed to me, but I think majority of McLaren fans accept that the team orders used in Brazil last year made sense. The post after yours by "McLaren fans" (supposedly anyway), all acknowledge it was reasonable to use them in Brazil 2007.

I don't think its double standards from McLaren fans (well, majority anyway) at all. I think its a matter of equality - giving both drivers a fair shot at title which is what McLaren fans feel. Or unreasonable use of team orders. But when used respectfully and in a sporting way McLaren fans tend to be fair.

Thats my interpretation from what I've seen anyway.

[ioan]

Well, Heikki got his reward for being a good lapdog....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69523

Sold his soul. He might get his first win as soon as Hamilton rams someone else in the pit lane, again, and might as well be never!

[Dave B]

Heikki will get his first win when he's quicker in the race than everybody else, including Lewis.

Simple as.

[ioan]

I didn't say English was the languange in France or China, I said its an international language, i.e the language which is most commonly used when nations communicate with eachother.


In fact, the only countries having English written press are the English speaking countries. So all the big news papers in the world are actually written in each countries language, which doesn't automatically makes them lesser as the English ones, no matter what English speaking people might think.

So just because something isn't reported in the English written press it doesn't mean that it wasn't reported in at least as important mas media in another country (in our case Finland's F1 transmitting TV channel).

And to further address your claim about English I can tell you that countries do not communicate with each other in English if none of the countries is an English speaking country. In fact they will use translators and all the documents will be printed in both countries languages.

So something being, or for that matter not, reported in English isn't the most important thing, not for those who can use other languages too.

I hope I made myself clear, in plain English. :D

[ioan]

What I don't understand is this. Finland isn't a small country, and in motorsport terms it punches well above its weight. There's a huge amount of speciallist motorsport press in Finland as well as the rest of the world. And yet. And yet... this quote attributed to Heikki has not been reported anywhere else expect in the one link eventually provided by someone other than ioan, despite my repeated asking. In fact, it's not even a quote, it's somebody's interpretation of what he may or may not have said.

Does that not seem strange to anybody else? That such a damning quote hasn't been picked up on by the media - either in Finland or anywhere else.

Could it be, could it possibly be, that Heikki never actually said such a thing?

You might start a thesis on this hypothesis. Keep us posted in a few years about your findings!

[PolePosition_1]

In fact, the only countries having English written press are the English speaking countries. So all the big news papers in the world are actually written in each countries language, which doesn't automatically makes them lesser as the English ones, no matter what English speaking people might think.

So just because something isn't reported in the English written press it doesn't mean that it wasn't reported in at least as important mas media in another country (in our case Finland's F1 transmitting TV channel).

And to further address your claim about English I can tell you that countries do not communicate with each other in English if none of the countries is an English speaking country. In fact they will use translators and all the documents will be printed in both countries languages.

So something being, or for that matter not, reported in English isn't the most important thing, not for those who can use other languages too.

I hope I made myself clear, in plain English. :D

Ioan - where did I ever say non-English speaking countries have English written press? I hate to sound patronising with this, but please, just read my posts carefully, and maybe just have a quick think before you reply to it.

Its common sense that press would be published in its host countries language.

And as for the rest, I find it hard to take you seriously. How can you deny that English is not an international language? Just look at Formula 1, every public figure in F1 can speak fluent English.

Yes true on a world stage translators are used, but at G8 summits, or WTO, IMF, World Bank meetings - they're all held in English. Its nothing about English being a neccessarily better language, it all comes down the economy of the world, with America leading the way (currently anyway), being an English speaking country. Just look at the internet, 80% or something are in English, despite only 20% odd of the world who speak English. Its because its an international language.

So back to what we were discussing, English IS an international language. And the media, being an internationally connected business, if something was said which had some credibility to it, it would have caused some kind of stories over here, in France, in Germany, in America.

What I'm pointing out is that your source is one Finnish website without any quotes, literally just an interpretation of his reaction. If it had any substance, it would have made the F1 media on an international basis, you can't say only reason you haven't got reliable source is because it was in Finnish. A more likely reason you can't find it is because it didn't have any substance whatsoever.

[PolePosition_1]

Your point being?! :rolleyes:

Well presumably by saying Ferrari owned up to it, and McLaren do it on the sly.

Well that wasn't the case, Ferrari did tell Rubens to do it at last minute like that - Rubens decided to do it that way.

If thats not what you were refering to my apologies.

[Dzeidzei]

Just to end this debate:

Heikki said to Turun Sanomat -which is not a tabloid but a very respectable daily- in Finnish:

"- Ne sanoivat, että Lewis on takana ja on nopeampi kuin minä. Ei siinä muuta sanottu. Näin itse, että hän oli siellä ja oli ihan oikeutettu juttu, että talli neuvoi päästämään hänet ohitse, Kovalainen kertaili."

In English this is:

- They told me that Lewis is behind me and that he´s faster than me. That´s all that was said. I saw him there myself and its fully justifed that the team ADVISED me to let him pass me.

So you see that people actually quoted the wrong parts of the Turun Sanomat story. So YES there was team orders. YES Heikki was pissed but probably more about his own performance. YES it was a sensible thing to do for McLaren. And YES these things happen and they will happen in F1.

[Tumbo]

thank you for finally getting some closure on what was said; hopefully we let sleeping dogs lie - ferrari in brasil 2007, mclaren in germany 2008 the universe balances

[ioan]

Well presumably by saying Ferrari owned up to it, and McLaren do it on the sly.

Well that wasn't the case, Ferrari did tell Rubens to do it at last minute like that - Rubens decided to do it that way.

If thats not what you were refering to my apologies.

Yes that was what I was referring to, and I stand by it, Ferrari publicly acknowledged that it was team orders, while McLaren never ever did that, in any of the cases they used team orders.

[ArrowsFA1]

Q: Heikki, some people are saying your role in McLaren is a support role for Lewis Hamilton. How do you see your role?
Heikki KOVALAINEN: Well, I think first of all I don't think Lewis needs any help. I think he has shown himself that he can do the job and that he doesn't need anyone there. The second point is that I am trying to do the maximum for myself and I am not helping any other drivers, that's for sure. And I have no instructions from the team.
In the past it has been very clear that at McLaren they have had the policy of equal drivers and both have the same opportunities. I have the same car, the same opportunity and I am just working towards improving the pace and the results. The last few races have been a little bit disappointing but the only way to move on is to keep working hard and eventually the results will come. Interestingly, following this conversation it always arises that I am helping and I am in the support role but I don't see it like that.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69542

[leopard]

If Lewis doesn't need any help from Heikki, he still needs him. Each team has two drivers. :)

[Dave B]

Not "help", but "co-operation". In races where Lewis is clearly faster, whether through his own talent or the team's strategy, he does not need to be held up for too long by his own team mate.

Now that we've actually got quotes, rather than speculation, I hope the matter can be put behind us.

[PolePosition_1]

Yes that was what I was referring to, and I stand by it, Ferrari publicly acknowledged that it was team orders, while McLaren never ever did that, in any of the cases they used team orders.

Erm....Monaco 2007. Ron Dennis admitted team orders were used.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6696953.stm

There many instances when DC has helped Mika Hakkinen. I'm not going to dig up every occassion, but to say McLaren have never admitted to using team orders is an out right lie. McLaren have admitted they use team orders when only one driver has a shot at title.

Also - no reply on my other post, same as you ignoring my comments about Brazil 2007.

I see a pattern of misreading my posts, arguing back - I point out you totally mis-read my post. And you can't argue back because you know your not making much sense.

And more to the point - you can't back up anything which you say and claim is fact.

[Knock-on]

Erm....Monaco 2007. Ron Dennis admitted team orders were used.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6696953.stm

There many instances when DC has helped Mika Hakkinen. I'm not going to dig up every occassion, but to say McLaren have never admitted to using team orders is an out right lie. McLaren have admitted they use team orders when only one driver has a shot at title.

Also - no reply on my other post, same as you ignoring my comments about Brazil 2007.

I see a pattern of misreading my posts, arguing back - I point out you totally mis-read my post. And you can't argue back because you know your not making much sense.

And more to the point - you can't back up anything which you say and claim is fact.

Hi Pole

You will get used to our friend. Don't bang your head against a brick wall :D

[ioan]

Hi Pole

You will get used to our friend. Don't bang your head against a brick wall :D

Look who's taking again, Mr. See no bad ,Hear no bad (as long as it isn't about a certain red team).

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69542

Not a proper quote with transcript, link and from a reputable source.

Whatever next :D

Heikki is right in what he says.

I've no doubt that Ron warned him that there was a fast Lewis coming behind him and that it was expected that Heikki wouldn't compromise the opportunity for McLaren to get the best possible result for the team. That's common sense.

However, no matter what people might claim, he was just told that Lewis was faster and was not ordered to let Lewis pass.

[harsha]

You will get used to our friend. Don't bang your head against a brick wall :D

:rotflmao:

[ioan]

However, no matter what people might claim, he was just told that Lewis was faster and was not ordered to let Lewis pass.

:laugh:

[PolePosition_1]

Hi Pole

You will get used to our friend. Don't bang your head against a brick wall :D


I already am thanks Knock On :) .

I've noticed pattern, he mades outragous statements (with no sources), I correct him and prove him wrong - and he just ignores it and continues going on and on and on despite being proved wrong.

And then on other topics, he has a go at other people for not sourcing their statements!! Its double standards to the top!

And on this topic all he goes on and on and on about is the double standards of others.

I find it hard to take anything he says seriously, as he's obviously unable to make an unbiased obversation.

[PolePosition_1]

:laugh:


All due respect, Heikki said this, Ron Dennis said this, the FIA and race stewards obviously agree with this.

Yet somehow your claiming they're all wrong, and you know better.

[ioan]

All due respect, Heikki said this, Ron Dennis said this, the FIA and race stewards obviously agree with this.

Yet somehow your claiming they're all wrong, and you know better.

http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=511450&postcount=31

[ShiftingGears]

http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=511450&postcount=31

Give us the proof, in English, not in Finnish, latin or heiroglyphics, or just admit you believe the person who translated it because it suits your point of view. Not hard.

[ioan]

Give us the proof, in English, not in Finnish, latin or heiroglyphics, or just admit you believe the person who translated it because it suits your point of view. Not hard.

There are more than 5 billion non native English speaker on the Earth, so learn to accept other language press too. If you can't that's your problem, not mine, nor of those who speak other languages and English. :p :
You might want to take Chinese lessons in the not so distant future! :D

I already am thanks Knock On :) .

I've noticed pattern, he mades outragous statements (with no sources), I correct him and prove him wrong - and he just ignores it and continues going on and on and on despite being proved wrong.

And then on other topics, he has a go at other people for not sourcing their statements!! Its double standards to the top!

And on this topic all he goes on and on and on about is the double standards of others.

I find it hard to take anything he says seriously, as he's obviously unable to make an unbiased obversation.

Arrows! People are talking about you!

Oh, sorry, easy mistake to make.

[ShiftingGears]

There are more than 5 billion non native English speaker on the Earth, so learn to accept other language press too. If you can't that's your problem, not mine,

It is a safe assumption that if whatever Heikki said was damning of McLarens team order policy, then it would be translated into english. What you have is two different translations of text that you can't read. So the onus is on you to provide the suitable justification of your viewpoint. [/QUOTE]



You might want to take Chinese lessons in the not so distant future! :D

I hope not :p :

...English is nicer on the ears :p :

[Knock-on]

There are more than 5 billion non native English speaker on the Earth, so learn to accept other language press too. If you can't that's your problem, not mine, nor of those who speak other languages and English. :p :
You might want to take Chinese lessons in the not so distant future! :D

ioan

This really isn't hard to understand is it?

The person responsible (Heikki) in the interview you are referring to was quoted as saying he was informed that Lewis was behind him and much faster than him. There is no quote where he says he was ordered to let Lewis through. Provide otherwise or admit you're wrong for crying out load.

Apart from that article, Heikki and McLaren have confirmed that he was told that Lewis was coming up fast.

The FIA monitored the broadcast and saw no team orders.

So, what exactly are you trying to prove?

We all know that teams do not want drivers compromising their team mates and will have made it clear what to do if they're doing so as in Brazil and Germany. Nobody cares about Brazil with Ferrari and nobody cares about this apart from people claiming hypocrisy and double standards.

Can you provide evidence from Brazil where anyone on here has changed their minds or accept it's really you that is hypocritical with the double standards.

PS, I'm still waiting for the proof that I hate Massa but I bet I've got as much chance of you backing up that spurious claim as I have of you doing so in this instance.

Confucius say that when deep in the poo, it best to close your gob unless you want a mouthful :p :

[Shalafi]

Of course that was a team order. Yes, he was told that Lewis was faster...what else that is, if not a team order to order Heikki to move over?! That is the way they have to say. Otherwise there would be consequences.

If it wasnt a direct order, why Heikki was furious after race and swored that is not allowed to fight? In F1 extra in MTV3 JJ Lehto and Oskari Saari told how really furious Heikki really was because of team order before he calmed down... But of course you dont have to believe it because it just happened in finnish and not english, because in Finland we dont have a queen that God will save... ;)

I dont understand about that bashing towards ioan, he is saying how it is in this case. It was a team order, it happens in F1 and its a stupid rule.

[wedge]

Of course that was a team order. Yes, he was told that Lewis was faster...what else that is, if not a team order to order Heikki to move over?! That is the way they have to say. Otherwise there would be consequences.

If it wasnt a direct order, why Heikki was furious after race and swored that is not allowed to fight? In F1 extra in MTV3 JJ Lehto and Oskari Saari told how really furious Heikki really was because of team order before he calmed down... But of course you dont have to believe it because it just happened in finnish and not english, because in Finland we dont have a queen that God will save... ;)

I dont understand about that bashing towards ioan, he is saying how it is in this case. It was a team order, it happens in F1 and its a stupid rule.

But it's not an explicit instruction. They just told him Lewis was quicker and the onus was on Heikki.

Why was Heikki angry? Probably at himself, IMO. Partly because it wasn't an explicit team order so you can put blame on team orders but more importantly his race pace hasn't been particularly good this season and he knows it.

I think the question you should be asking is what was Heikki thinking when the team told him Lewis was quicker. From the way Heikki 'moved over' he wasn't sure whether it as full team order or not.

[racecraze]

Yes, it's illegal, no one can justify this what happened on track. And its a race and how he let him to pass by and it seems to be very first occurence for me from since i watching race.

[Knock-on]

Yes, it's illegal, no one can justify this what happened on track. And its a race and how he let him to pass by and it seems to be very first occurence for me from since i watching race.

Apparently the FIA disagree with you.

Would you have the same opinion with Brazil last year I wonder?

No team will accept their drivers being hindered and the rule was brought in to stop race fixing, not stop racing.

[jjanicke]

English is the international language bla bla bla, go tell that to a French for example!

Or to a Chinese who never learned English. And the list could go on.

....

As for my English, I bet it's better than your Romanian, or any other language that it happens that I speak fluently. :laugh:

Case and point!

[jjanicke]

Of course that was a team order. Yes, he was told that Lewis was faster...what else that is, if not a team order to order Heikki to move over?! That is the way they have to say. Otherwise there would be consequences.

If it wasnt a direct order, why Heikki was furious after race and swored that is not allowed to fight? In F1 extra in MTV3 JJ Lehto and Oskari Saari told how really furious Heikki really was because of team order before he calmed down... But of course you dont have to believe it because it just happened in finnish and not english, because in Finland we dont have a queen that God will save... ;)

I dont understand about that bashing towards ioan, he is saying how it is in this case. It was a team order, it happens in F1 and its a stupid rule.

Shalafi the mistake that you, Ioan and few other are making is the assumption of a "direct order" for Heikki to move over. There's yet to be any proof, in finish, english, or any other language, that Heikki was told to move over. As many have pointed out no one is arguing the implied team order. The argument is over the proof of an explicit team order, which as of yet does not exist, in any language.

Ioan just goes on and on and on with the premises that there is an explicit order, and chooses to ignore any questions regarding the validity of his statements.

[Shalafi]

Shalafi the mistake that you, Ioan and few other are making is the assumption of a "direct order" for Heikki to move over. There's yet to be any proof, in finish, english, or any other language, that Heikki was told to move over. As many have pointed out no one is arguing the implied team order. The argument is over the proof of an explicit team order, which as of yet does not exist, in any language.

Ioan just goes on and on and on with the premises that there is an explicit order, and chooses to ignore any questions regarding the validity of his statements.

Well... When Heikki after the race swored and said "Ei saa ajaa kilpaa", translation "Im not allowed to race", then that is good enough proof for me! But because people here dont believe it, I let it now be and will not write anything about this subject. Lets see what will happen this weekend, shall we...

[harsha]

Well... When Heikki after the race swored and said "Ei saa ajaa kilpaa", translation "Im not allowed to race", then that is good enough proof for me! But because people here dont believe it, I let it now be and will not write anything about this subject. Lets see what will happen this weekend, shall we...

he could have meant it in another context...i mean different meaning rather than the literal meaning...?????

[jjanicke]

Well... When Heikki after the race swored and said "Ei saa ajaa kilpaa", translation "Im not allowed to race", then that is good enough proof for me! But because people here dont believe it, I let it now be and will not write anything about this subject. Lets see what will happen this weekend, shall we...

That certainly supports the implied directive, but, IMO, doesn't make Ron or Mclaren a sneaky, two faced, back room scheming, bring the sport into disrepute, sleaze ball as Ioan would like us all to believe.

[Bagwan]

"I'm not allowed to race ."
Are we sure this is a literal translation ?

If it is , it shows clearly that this was a team order , albeit veiled by wording .

So , it was , but it wasn't .

BOTH sides of this are correct .

Now , let's stop all this rock throwing , and agree that this rule is stupid .

Stupid , stupid , stupid .

[jjanicke]

Agreed!