Indy Cup Race Thread

[Jonesi]

Entry List, 47 cars entered, 4 will DNQ.
TOP 35:
18 KYLE BUSCH
88 DALE EARNHARDT JR
31 JEFF BURTON
99 CARL EDWARDS
48 JIMMIE JOHNSON
24 JEFF GORDON
16 GREG BIFFLE
17 MATT KENSETH
29 KEVIN HARVICK
20 TONY STEWART
9 KASEY KAHNE
11 DENNY HAMLIN
07 CLINT BOWYER
83 BRIAN VICKERS
6 DAVID RAGAN
12 RYAN NEWMAN
1 MARTIN TRUEX JR
2 KURT BUSCH
43 BOBBY LABONTE
42 JUAN MONTOYA
28 TRAVIS KVAPIL
26 JAMIE McMURRAY
19 ELLIOTT SADLER
5 CASEY MEARS
38 DAVID GILLILAND
15 PAUL MENARD
44 DAVID REUTIMANN
8 MARK MARTIN
7 ROBBY GORDON
22 DAVE BLANEY
55 MICHAEL WALTRIP
41 REED SORENSON
77 SAM HORNISH JR
01 REGAN SMITH
00 MICHAEL McDOWELL (last Top 35, ahead of #66 by +13)

GOGH
45 TERRY LABONTE (Has 1st Champ Prov)
21 BILL ELLIOTT (Has Champ Prov)
66 SCOTT RIGGS (out of Top 35 by -13)
96 J.J. YELEY
10 PATRICK CARPENTIER
78 JOE NEMECHEK
84 AJ ALLMENDINGER
08 JOHNNY SAUTER
70 JASON LEFFLER
34 TONY RAINES
47 MARCOS AMBROSE
50 STANTON BARRETT

[call_me_andrew]

There's talk of tire trouble at Indy. Where have I heard that before? :p

[Robert Ryan]

There's talk of tire trouble at Indy. Where have I heard that before?
Do you think he had something to do with it?
http://www.pedeborracha.com/UserFiles/Image/noticias/michelin.jpg

Nice to see Marcos make the field.

[EagleEye]

What a joke. a bad one at that....

What is NASCAR waiting for, someone else to die?

[oldhippie]

you cant blame nascar for this mess
goodyear dropped the ball again
disgusting!

[MD24]

I was looking forward to watching this race but a F*** joke this is turning out to be.

Hopefully nobody will get seriously injured before the end of this race.

[oldhippie]

tire trouble is an understatement
ridiculous!

[oldhippie]

cant call it a race cause now it is a survival challenge :(

[nigelred5]

They have as close to Zero time on Th track as one could imagine with the COT. It's been the same story most of the season. It's NASCAR's fault for not allowing the teams to run a suspension set up that isn't so hard on handling and tire wear. Of course the goodyears are still junk, but hte car isn;t making it any better. They are talking about 8 lap segments for cripe's sake because the tires won't last. disgusting.

[MD24]

Of course the goodyears are still junk, but hte car isn;t making it any better. They are talking about 8 lap segments for cripe's sake because the tires won't last. disgusting.

Nascar doesn't care as long as Goodyear keeps bringing in sponsorship money, that's all that matters to them

[NickFalzone]

what a horrible race. They get 8 laps on a set and some aren't even getting that. Running at best 3/4 of their regular speeds at IMS. Amazing, especially after Stewart's complaints earlier this year.

[dont_be_jack]

Nothing better than making a mockery out of the race at the Brickyard...this is a huge race and here they are maing it a joke.

Goodyear should be able to make a better tire. I don't place much blame on NASCAR for this one. How different is this tire from Pocono? From New Hampshire? Those are the tracks that are closest to the set-up that teams use at Indy - Goodyear should've checked their notes.

[El Sween]

Call the race. Too risky for the drivers.

[GARYGAZZA]

I cant wait for Tony Stewart.s post race interview.This is not a good advert for goodyear tyres.Roll on next week!

[tstran17_88]

Somehow I don't think this is Goodyear's fault...it's all on the shoulders of Nascar IMO. Tire wear is always an issue at this track and Nascar didn’t let them test the crap of today car there, except for a certain few who got to do a tire test for Goodyear.

[harvick#1]

I was looking forward to watching this race but a F*** joke this is turning out to be.

Hopefully nobody will get seriously injured before the end of this race.

same here, Indy is a great track, but Goodyear has failed to produce a tire to last 10 laps, what a disgrace

[dont_be_jack]

I cant wait for Tony Stewart.s post race interview.This is not a good advert for goodyear tyres.Roll on next week!

And no one better pull him into a trailer and tear him apart. Just heard Mike Helton on ESPN...even though he tried to be as business-like as he could, you could hear the frustration in his voice at Goodyear.


Call the race. Too risky for the drivers.

I'm with you on this. They're lucky that no one has gotten hurt yet. And the worst part is that if a crash is bad enough at Indy things end up in the stand and fans could easily get hurt.

[dont_be_jack]

Somehow I don't think this is Goodyear's fault...it's all on the shoulders of Nascar IMO. Tire wear is always an issue at this track and Nascar didn’t let them test the crap of today car there, except for a certain few who got to do a tire test there for Goodyear.

Well, they keep on talking about the 48 and 24 cars which are wearing down to the cords...maybe it's because the HMS cars always appear to be crabbing down the racetrack. The 20 car isn't wearing as bad and doesn't appear to be crabbing...

Could that be part of the problem?

[harvick#1]

now they are closing pits while under green before the comp. caution.

This has to be Nascar most disgraceful race ever, I've never seen such crap. Nascar and Goodyear better refund all the tickets for the fans, to watch this non-sense and BS Caution every 10 laps in disrepectful to for world of Autoracing

[dont_be_jack]

now they are closing pits while under green before the comp. caution.

This has to be Nascar most disgraceful race ever, I've never seen such crap. Nascar and Goodyear better refund all the tickets for the fans, to watch this non-sense and BS Caution every 10 laps in disrepectful to for world of Autoracing

Let's compare this to F1 i 2005...Oi!

[tstran17_88]

The 20 car isn't wearing as bad and doesn't appear to be crabbing...

Could that be part of the problem?Elliott Sadler is the best as far as tire wear goes today...and he's one of the crappiest drivers in the field...explain that one! :laugh:

[tstran17_88]

I don’t know if it’s ESPN or my cable company...but I keep losing reception. That’s just adding insult to injury IMO!!! :laugh: I’m ever so close to switching to Direct TV!

[dont_be_jack]

Elliott Sadler is the best as far as tire wear goes today...and he's one of the crappiest drivers in the field...explain that one! :laugh:

Well, I said crabbing...which is the way the car looks when it doesn't drive down the straight like a normal car...but it could be that Elliot Sadler doesn't try as hard and doesn't burn down the rubber.

[DavePI2]

as one who is not a fan of nascar I will defend nascar here. As was mentioned above this is not the first time this has happened at indy. At least nascar is running a race. It certainly isn't the best but at least there is a race. That can not be said of f1 who refused to make any changes and had the worst debacle in motor sports history.

david

[dont_be_jack]

as one who is not a fan of nascar I will defend nascar here. As was mentioned above this is not the first time this has happened at indy. At least nascar is running a race. It certainly isn't the best but at least there is a race. That can not be said of f1 who refused to make any changes and had the worst debacle in motor sports history.

david

I'll agree with you on that one. NASCAR flew in the Pocono tires in case they needed them as teams ran out of the Indy tires and are doing what they can to keep people safe.

There are very obvious issues with Indy and everyone but the IRL. The speeds that the teams race at, the lack of banking, and the levigating of the track a few years ago have ruined whatever racing there once was.

[djparky]

Goodyear and NASCAR have effectively f***** this up haven't they??? the tyres at Atlanta earlier in the year were a joke but not as bad as this- totally unacceptable to bring a tyre that is not fit for purpose- ie can be raced properly

in the same way that it was unacceptable for Michelin in 2005- there is no excuse from either Goodyear or NASCAR for this- although I note the commentary team did the usual Goodyear tyre advert earlier

oh and the cars look f****** stupid crabbing down the straight- pathetic- thought NASCAR had stopped this after Hornish earlier in the year

[tstran17_88]

Well, I said crabbing...which is the way the car looks when it doesn't drive down the straight like a normal car...but it could be that Elliot Sadler doesn't try as hard and doesn't burn down the rubber.I realize you said crabbing...all the cars are set up that way according to Bootie Barker. So I guess the 24 & 48 are crabbing more, but they haven’t blown out tires like the #17, who everybody in the garage predicted had the best set up for today’s race to alleviate the tire wear issue.

[beachbum]

as one who is not a fan of nascar I will defend nascar here. As was mentioned above this is not the first time this has happened at indy. At least nascar is running a race. It certainly isn't the best but at least there is a race. That can not be said of f1 who refused to make any changes and had the worst debacle in motor sports history.

davidSorry, this isn't even a race. 10 laps of green and then 6-7 laps of yellow? Considering they run at about 70 mph under caution, that is a lot more time under caution than under green.

I blame both Nascar and Goodyear. The track hasn't changed in 3 years and Goodyear has a lot of experience with the COT. They should have been able to do a better job. But apparently the COT rules don't allow more left side weight than right, so the rules package just creates a package that abuses right side tires. Whatever the cause, the result is a joke.

[Jonesi]

I don’t know if it’s ESPN or my cable company...but I keep losing reception. That’s just adding insult to injury IMO!!! :laugh: I’m ever so close to switching to Direct TV!

It was probably ESPN since it happened here in San Diego too.

[RaceFanStan]

Well, there are 2-10 lap heat races left ..... http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[dont_be_jack]

Well, there was the end of the worst race since charlotte a few years ago during the chase after they levigated the track. Goodyear needs to work on their tires and NASCAR needs to give the teams more range to work within.

[harvick#1]

congrats Nascar. this was the most BS race you've ever managed. to have Comp. Cautions for the entire race is a complete joke, the world just saw how amature Nascar is to any other racing series out there.

Johnson has to thank Nascar for this win as to have a competition caution with 10 to go is insane, for the final 20 laps, Nascar should've told all teams, its all up to you now when you want to pit, that would've made things very interesting.

Goodyear needs to test, test, test, test, then test some more, if not, get the **** out of nascar and have Bridgestone, Dunlop, BF Goodrich, or any other tire manufactor.

the fans should've stormed out of INDY like they did in 05, this was not a race, this was a disgrace to autoracing

[tstran17_88]

It was probably ESPN since it happened here in San Diego too.Is Charter Comm your cable provider? I just want to make sure I'm crucifying the correct culprit! :D

[Racebob]

The drivers should have parked the cars and walked away. This event was a travesty. A total embarrassment for both NASCAR and Goodyear. Especially at a major event such as Indy ! Competition cautions were necessary, however. They were absolutely necessary. The tires were shot after just a few laps. The cautions at least kept the drivers safe. Somebody would have been seriously injured if there were no cautions to change tires.

[dont_be_jack]

The drivers should have parked the cars and walked away. This event was a travesty. A total embarrassment for both NASCAR and Goodyear. Especially at a major event such as Indy ! Competition cautions were necessary, however. They were absolutely necessary. The tires were shot after just a few laps. The cautions at least kept the drivers safe. Somebody would have been seriously injured if there were no cautions to change tires.

if the drivers had walked away the race wouldve been worse than it had been. Blame wouldve been placed on the drivers, not on goodyear and NASCAR like it should be.

[DavePI2]

well I lost the reception myself. The point was made that indycar is the only ones who don't seem to have problems which was true until 06 when f1 went to firestone's also. Could this probably be a testing problem more then anything. Afterall Indycar has a whole month of practice before their race and firestone had the indy data to help out with f1. Some have said that one month is too much to devote to the 500. I think today confirms that testing for a major race is required. Nascar certainly doesn't have the time to devote to that lengthy a testing schedule but it would seem that more testing should be done in the future unless nascar has any plans of changing tire suppliers.

david

[Lee Roy]

That was an ugly race. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if NASCAR never went back to IMS again.

[Jag_Warrior]

well I lost the reception myself. The point was made that indycar is the only ones who don't seem to have problems which was true until 06 when f1 went to firestone's also. Could this probably be a testing problem more then anything. Afterall Indycar has a whole month of practice before their race and firestone had the indy data to help out with f1. Some have said that one month is too much to devote to the 500. I think today confirms that testing for a major race is required. Nascar certainly doesn't have the time to devote to that lengthy a testing schedule but it would seem that more testing should be done in the future unless nascar has any plans of changing tire suppliers.

david

That's a good question regarding Bridgestone/Firestone. I wouldn't think the tire for an F1 car would have much in common with the tire for the lower powered and heavier IRL car (plus all oval vs. left/right road course), but maybe they did learn something about compounds, construction and wear. I dunno.

I always try to make sure I catch the Brickyard 400. But this was one of the saddest racing displays I've ever seen. You had to also feel bad for the drivers. You know they felt as bad as most of the fans. Was Earnhardt, Jr. getting choked up or did his voice just sound odd during the interview at the end, where he said they did the best they could with what they had? Bad deal all the way around.

[dre1983]

wow what a disgrace for a race i mean goodyear and nascar i blame goodyear more but between the both of them they manage to butcher a race how come firestone didnt have that many tire issues with the irl cars i mean i know there different cars and weight different but i think something has got to change in nascar :mad:

[Jason555]

This was a very boring event....... almost as bad as the Indycar's running in Edmonton.......... :p

[Lemmy-Boy]

What a crappy race. As a fan of all motorsports, Goodyear continues to tarnish their image as a tire supplier for any series. Like Smoke said earlier this year, Goodyear was run out of F1, CART, IRL, etc because they could not compete with Bridgestone/Firestone.

I really hope NASCAR will consider other tire suppliers when their contract with Goodyear expires.

At least Firestone is well known for their Quality control issues across all forms of motorsport. Their R&D and reliability is unsurpassed as compared to Goodyear.

[Lemmy-Boy]

as one who is not a fan of nascar I will defend nascar here. As was mentioned above this is not the first time this has happened at indy. At least nascar is running a race. It certainly isn't the best but at least there is a race. That can not be said of f1 who refused to make any changes and had the worst debacle in motor sports history.

david

The F1 debacle was a different set of circumstances due to tire war between Bridgestone & Michelin. In the end, Michelin's tire choice for the F1 race was claimed to be a so-called (cough) hazard :rolleyes: . However, another big factor for most of the teams refusing to race was the political ramifications behind the scenes (the possible breakaway series due to the Concorde agreement and, of course, money paid out to the teams).

We all know that Nascar has a single tire supplier. Like every other year, Goodyear has failed to deliver a consistent tire on a race to race basis. A pathetic excuse when you consider they have no competition.

[call_me_andrew]

I don't blame Goodyear alone. They could have done better, but I put more fault on the track. In 2005 the track was repaved to remove weepers. Then it was levigated because the new pavement was too bumpy for IndyCars.

The new pavement has been bad for the Indy 500 because too many marbles accumulate outside the racing line that slow cars can't yield. Formula 1 had the 2005 debacle. NASCAR has been walking on egg shells this whole time. Indy's new surface makes Rockingham look like a skating rink.

[harvick#1]

I vote that Indy moves to ORP, put 100,000 seats around the track and that will be much more successful than another Indy debacle

[DavePI2]

Hey I was just throwing it out as a possibility not an excuse. I don't watch nascar enough. Just asking a question as a occasional observer. I am glad for the imformation from everyone in this forum on the state of goodyear and nascar as in dealing with this issue becuause I don't watch it enough.


david

[EagleEye]

you cant blame nascar for this mess
goodyear dropped the ball again
disgusting!

They shoulder the blame. Most sactioning bodies work with their partners to ensure safety, and reduce issues. NASCAR should keep track of their technical partner, becuase this is not the first time they have dropped the ball.

[dre1983]

as for realiability when i bought my truck brand new it was a performance truck and the goodyear eagle gt i had on it were shot by 12,000 miles is this the r&d that goodyear does? this today everyone that was involved was at fault indy for the track surface goodyear for bringing something that was junk and nascar not testing before and allowing this circus act to go on today. bring in tire competition

[BobbyC]

I'll agree with you on that one. NASCAR flew in the Pocono tires in case they needed them as teams ran out of the Indy tires and are doing what they can to keep people safe.

There are very obvious issues with Indy and everyone but the IRL. The speeds that the teams race at, the lack of banking, and the levigating of the track a few years ago have ruined whatever racing there once was.

I'll add one more: Talladega 1969.

Drivers went on strike at that race, and NASCAR ran it with half of the field and replacement drivers. They put competition cautions every 25 laps and had no crashes. Lessons learned from that first race at 'Dega were used today.

No drivers in the hospital tonight (or worse), 41 of the 43 cars were running, and much to Allstate's business, they applauded the moves.

"With Allstate's more than 75 years of history as a leader of safety and protection, we support the safety precautions taken by IMS and NASCAR today because the safety and protection of the drivers is what matters most."

Sounds like the race was in good hands with all that happened. It turned into your neighbourhood short-track race, and even into early IMS races that were sprints. In that light, maybe it was good to be a short-track fan since they were treated to old-school short track racing they see on Saturday nights -- 8-10 lap heat races with a pit stop contest every round. Those pit stops turned into endurance matches as the race turned into heat races mixed with an athletic contest between heats by the pit crews.

[pdalbey]

I don't blame Goodyear alone. They could have done better, but I put more fault on the track. In 2005 the track was repaved to remove weepers. Then it was levigated because the new pavement was too bumpy for IndyCars.

The new pavement has been bad for the Indy 500 because too many marbles accumulate outside the racing line that slow cars can't yield. Formula 1 had the 2005 debacle. NASCAR has been walking on egg shells this whole time. Indy's new surface makes Rockingham look like a skating rink.

That's a bunch of crap!! The previous Indy overlay was placed in 1996 and diamond ground in 2002. The current overlay was placed in fall of 2004 and ground in spring 2005. That means that NASCAR has been running on Indy's diamond ground pavement since 2002 - 6 races before today. Goodyear has a responsibility to understand what the track is like and provide a tire that will withstand the forces of the track. If you are trying to tell me that Goodyear doesn't have enough data from the last 6 years, you're completely clueless. Firestone doesn't have a problem building a tire to last for 100 miles and I guarantee you the forces on an IndyCar tire going through the turns at 225 are significantly greater than a Cup tire going through the corners at 145 mph, even if the Cup car does weigh twice as much.

Your claim about the new pavement being bad for IndyCar is completely baseless. The 2005 and 2006 500's were two of the greatest races in the history of the race, the 2007 one was on it's way to being that way, and the 2008 was very good for 2-33.

[call_me_andrew]

That's a bunch of crap!! The previous Indy overlay was placed in 1996 and diamond ground in 2002. The current overlay was placed in fall of 2004 and ground in spring 2005. That means that NASCAR has been running on Indy's diamond ground pavement since 2002 - 6 races before today. Goodyear has a responsibility to understand what the track is like and provide a tire that will withstand the forces of the track. If you are trying to tell me that Goodyear doesn't have enough data from the last 6 years, you're completely clueless. Firestone doesn't have a problem building a tire to last for 100 miles and I guarantee you the forces on an IndyCar tire going through the turns at 225 are significantly greater than a Cup tire going through the corners at 145 mph, even if the Cup car does weigh twice as much.

Your claim about the new pavement being bad for IndyCar is completely baseless. The 2005 and 2006 500's were two of the greatest races in the history of the race, the 2007 one was on it's way to being that way, and the 2008 was very good for 2-33.

What are you smoking?

If the current overlay was placed in 2004, then what does data from 2002 matter? I recall the diamond grinding in 2002, but that doesn't really matter if the whole thing is repaved in 2004 now does it?

Firestone's tires don't last 100 miles. IndyCars go about 75 miles between pit stops. Plus the IndyCar tires are in open air so they run about 40 degrees cooler than Cup Car tires.

The Indy 500 has been a good race for the last few years, but the passes have all been outbreaking or slingshot manuvers. Nothing along the lines of running side-by-side for a few laps.

Here's footage from the 2005 I500. The lack of a Formula 1 starting grid confirms this is the first race with the current pavement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtPnPUAyq5E&feature=related

Here's footage from the 2007 I 500. In this clip John Andretti moves out of the line to yield to a faster car, and the marbles created by diamond grinding cause him to crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67g8Vb_WYdU

[Jonesi]

Is Charter Comm your cable provider? I just want to make sure I'm crucifying the correct culprit! :D

No it's Time-Warner.

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

Goodyear have dropped the ball twice this year (atlanta). they must have known for awhile that this was gonna happen. Goodyear should be ashamed of themselves and NASCAR should be ashamed of themselves for letting it happen.

[Alexamateo]

Like any disaster, there's not one single event that leads to the problem, but a series of events:

First is the IMS and diamond grinding, one can debate its merits or lack thereof, but it does it does have an effect on what happens at the track, and it is abrasive. However, it was done in 2005, so it was a known factor and 3 Brickyards, 3 Indys, and 2 F1's have been run in this configuration so while a factor, it didn't catch anybody by surprise.

Nascar then mandates the COT, which raises the center-of-gravity and completely changes the handling characteristics. Nascar did have Goodyear test, but in hindsight, it should have been more thorough, because the COT combined with a diamond ground track has led to other near disasters this year (Atlanta). I don't think Charlotte last year was a COT race, but the desire for a smooth track has led to some problems for Goodyear elsewhere also.

That leads to the drivers and teams themselves, although they are doing what just comes naturally, trying to go fast. Goodyear had a harder tire at the Indy test, but the drivers said they didn't like the way the car handled, so Goodyear said ok, we'll use the softer tire. They said, "It will probably rubber up with a full field of cars like last year, and it will be ok." That's probably the biggest mistake there, assuming the tire will perform the same as last year when the car had undergone massive changes to its handling characteristics. Hindsight is 20/20, but a full test with mandated full fuel runs should have perhaps been done to see if in fact the track would rubber up and things would be ok.

Back on the teams, they share some blame, but they are just trying to get an edge which is what they are supposed to do. They want the softer, grippier tire of course, and they also experiment with this new car trying to make it turn like the old car. The result has been the "crab" cars with the offset rear axles. It works great for turns, but can cause problems with tire wear on the straights, and Indy is all straights, so tires are not only wearing out in the turns, but also on the straights. Look at yesterday, the right rears bore the brunt of the abuse.

So there's lots of blame to go around, but blame is pretty much useless, folks just need to put their heads together and see where they go foward from here and how do they respond, although, if I was Nascar and Goodyear, I would be offering ticket holders another ticket to a future event, because it was a fiasco.

It's funny, I was really frustrated yesterday because my cable and internet had a 4 hour regional outage yesterday 40 laps into the race, my wife was out, and the two year old was napping, so I couldn't leave. (I briefly debated the merits of carrying a two and four year old to a sports bar, but didn't think it would be such a great idea :p : ) Reading the comments here, it was a blessing in disguise, not to have seen that race.

[pdalbey]

What are you smoking?

If the current overlay was placed in 2004, then what does data from 2002 matter? I recall the diamond grinding in 2002, but that doesn't really matter if the whole thing is repaved in 2004 now does it?

Firestone's tires don't last 100 miles. IndyCars go about 75 miles between pit stops. Plus the IndyCar tires are in open air so they run about 40 degrees cooler than Cup Car tires.

The Indy 500 has been a good race for the last few years, but the passes have all been outbreaking or slingshot manuvers. Nothing along the lines of running side-by-side for a few laps.

Here's footage from the 2005 I500. The lack of a Formula 1 starting grid confirms this is the first race with the current pavement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtPnP...eature=related

Here's footage from the 2007 I 500. In this clip John Andretti moves out of the line to yield to a faster car, and the marbles created by diamond grinding cause him to crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67g8Vb_WYdU

It matters because the diamond grinding is the issue, not the actual asphalt itself. It is the ridges that result from the diamond grinding process that make the track abrasive and those have been there continuously since the 2002 race. Goodyear should have been in no way surprised by this issue.

Yes, the IndyCars go about 30-35 laps, in the 75 mile ball park, but those stops are necessitated by fuel load, not tires. It is not uncommon at all to see drivers run two stints on a set of tires to gain track position. I'm not denying that the IndyCars have an issue with marbles but that tends to happen at most tracks they run on. It is certainly not specific to Indy. The problem this year was more of the inexperienced guys thinking they could run up there and finding out too late that they couldn't.

I was not aware that there was a major construction difference btween the IndyCar and Cup tires although I guess I do recall that the Cup tires use an inner liner. With that, I'm really suprised by the explosive blow-out that Montoya and Kennseth had yesterday. Isn't the inner tire supposed to avoid issues like that?

[RaceFanStan]

Some of you are missing the real issue, the TRACK abrasive surface is the problem !!!
The track surface caused the tire issues that were so prevelent yesterday.
The Goodyear tires raced yesterday were NOT the problem !!!

I think it is time for Tony George to dig into his piggybank & resurface the track !
Yesterday's race with all of the tire issues were a major fiasco. :s
No doubt more "bad" races will likely follow @ the Brickyard if something isn't done to the track surface.

It is time to GRIND-UP the existing pavement & REPAVE the Brickyard again !!! http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

NASCAR should demand the Brickyard's surface be corrected or else NASCAR will pull it's race !

[Lee Roy]

NASCAR should demand the Brickyard's surface be corrected or else NASCAR will pull it's race !

WORD!!!!!!!!

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Rex Monaco]

Some of you are missing the real issue, the TRACK abrasive surface is the problem !!!

Then why didn't the tires in the Indy 500 experience this problem?

During the broadcast it sounded very much like they were saying it was a NASCAR mandated set-up, that does not allow the teams to properly adjust the car for these conditions.

[Rex Monaco]

NASCAR should demand the Brickyard's surface be corrected or else NASCAR will pull it's race !

And TG should tell them to go back to Daytona and learn how to set-up a car.

[Rex Monaco]

It matters because the diamond grinding is the issue, not the actual asphalt itself. It is the ridges that result from the diamond grinding process that make the track abrasive and those have been there continuously since the 2002 race. Goodyear should have been in no way surprised by this issue.

So NASCAR runs at Indy under the same conditions for 6 years with no tire issues. In 2008 there is a new car with new rules and now all of a sudden they have tire issues.

Whats the thing that changed? The track conditions? The tires? No. The car and the rules.

NASCAR created this issue, NASCAR should fix it.

[harvick#1]

Then why didn't the tires in the Indy 500 experience this problem?



Bridgestone/Firestone was the tire supplier, enough said :s mokin: they know how to actually produce a fully functional race tire.

but the problem was part of the CoT, NASCAR forces the teams to follow the books and since they took the left side weight out of the car, the tires are just shot.

bring back the old car Nascar, it was still just as safe as this piece of garbage and still is a better racecar overall. this was not a race, it was a travesty, the fans should've stormed out of the track (well alot did as at the end of the race, there were alot of empty seats). This just doesn't happen in professional racing, to throw a comp caution every 12 laps and closing the pits for 2 laps while under green so teams can't short pit to get the lead. what a load of BS is that, its a race. There is only one race I know that teams pit every 12 laps and thats Le Mans, but its also a 7 mile road course, and the teams were double-triple stinting there Michelin Tires, so you can do the math on the miles on one set of tires.

Brian France, step down, Mike Helton, get the **** out, its time for some new people in charge. Goodyear, how are you still around

[Lee Roy]

I wonder if the Motorcycle folks are having second thoughts about racing at IMS?

[RaceFanStan]

I will admit the COT has more grip & could require a better pavement surface ...
That being stated, the COT is here to stay & the tracks will have to adjust to the COT ...
if an existing track surface creates a safety issue it needs to be changed or dropped ...
there are several tracks pleading for a Cup race date & others are pleading for a 2nd Cup race date ...
NASCAR is in control of the Cup race dates & will determine who gets races ...
no-one wants to see the Brickyard dropped but something has to be done to ensure the driver's safety ...
10 to 12 lap heat races are NOT an acceptable option !!! http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[pdalbey]

Perhaps they should fix the tire. Or perhaps they should allow the teams to set up cars in a better manner so that the forces are more in line with the crappy tires can handle.

[harvick#1]

move IMS date to ORP, still in Indy, but a much better track IMO, one of few oval tracks that are great

[Rex Monaco]

Or perhaps they should allow the teams to set up cars in a better manner so that the forces are more in line with the crappy tires can handle.

Adjust the car to the track and not the track to the car? Could it really be so easy?

[Lee Roy]

Or, find another track. There are lots of tracks that would like a Cup race, or a second Cup race.

[Sparky1329]

After that poor excuse for a "race" NASCAR should be ashamed of themselves. The Daytona belevolent dictatorship has jumped the shark.

[ms0362]

Nascar is going to continue to deny they have problems until the day comes when those stands are more than half empty. I'm sick of their PC attitude and the way they intimidate drivers and team members from making any negative comments about how they are screwing with this sport so much they are ruining it. This race (which it wasn't one) is the biggest example of the mess they are making of this sport. Their stupid COT is backfiring on them.

[pdalbey]

Nascar is going to continue to deny they have problems until the day comes when those stands are more than half empty. I'm sick of their PC attitude and the way they intimidate drivers and team members from making any negative comments about how they are screwing with this sport so much they are ruining it. This race (which it wasn't one) is the biggest example of the mess they are making of this sport. Their stupid COT is backfiring on them.
I would argue the stands weren't significantly more than half full yesterday - at least not by NASCAR standards. Many reports indicate that stands at the north end of the track (northwest vista and north vista) were 1/3 to 1/2 full. Like wise on the south end of the track (southwest vista, south vista, and G-stand). Most of the Tower Terrace below the Terrace Suites was a ghost town and much of the outside front straight stands were empty in the areas not covered by the upper deck (those are stands A, B, C, and paddock). Granted, I could not see what the attendance was under the upper deck. I'm sure the upper deck was packed and from what I could see, so was the northwest vista, J stand, H stand, E-stand, and most of the SE vista. I've been to IMS many, many times and based on what I saw there, I would say a fair estimate was 180-190k, given Curt Cavin's report of the total permanent capacity being 257,xxx seats. It certainly wasn't anywhere close tot he 200k, 250k, and "sold-out capacity" numbers that I heard almost every commentator proclaim yesterday. 190k people is still a hell of an attendance but I'm sure it's not what NASCAR wants to see and more importantly, not what NASCAR wants the viewing public to see.

Above all series, I am a fan of IMS and while the 500 is my first love, I still want to see any event at the Speedway be successful. I fear that after this showing, the downward trend of attendance will not be reversed next year. :(

ETA: I should say that my views of the stand did not come at the beginning of the race as ESPN was very reluctant to show much of the grandstands on the north end. The only over head shot I saw came at about lap 75 and I concede that many fans that were there at the beginning of the race may have left by that point.

[DavePI2]

the only thing i would like to know is if this will happen at michigan? This years race is my last cup race if any of the bull that has gone on at the last two I've been too continues. If there is an issue like this at michigan I will never go back.

david

[DavePI2]

who is that ex-basketball player on espn? He is the only one who would tell the truth about the crowd. While everyone else was saying what a huge crowd their was tonight he said there was more like 150. He won't keep his job long with comments like that. Of course although I am sure it has been discussed at length before I still beg to ask, what in the world is a basketball player doing as one of the top analysts for nascar. Still all the hubbub about dropping attendance isn't really much of a subject. The people who get hurt worst in a depression are the blue collar workers. That is who still by and large support nascar. When the economy improves so will the attendance. That is probably one reason the tv ratings are up, people just can't afford to go like they used too.

david

[Rex Monaco]

Or, find another track. There are lots of tracks that would like a Cup race, or a second Cup race.

That's probably easier than setting the car up properly. And the fans would absolutley love it too.

[Sparky1329]

who is that ex-basketball player on espn? He is the only one who would tell the truth about the crowd. While everyone else was saying what a huge crowd their was tonight he said there was more like 150. He won't keep his job long with comments like that. Of course although I am sure it has been discussed at length before I still beg to ask, what in the world is a basketball player doing as one of the top analysts for nascar. Still all the hubbub about dropping attendance isn't really much of a subject. The people who get hurt worst in a depression are the blue collar workers. That is who still by and large support nascar. When the economy improves so will the attendance. That is probably one reason the tv ratings are up, people just can't afford to go like they used too.

david

Brad Daugherty owned a CT team in the late 90s and is currently part owner of JTG Racing. I like him because he doesn't try to sugarcoat things like all the other talking heads on race broadcasts.

[call_me_andrew]

It's funny, I was really frustrated yesterday because my cable and internet had a 4 hour regional outage yesterday 40 laps into the race, my wife was out, and the two year old was napping, so I couldn't leave. (I briefly debated the merits of carrying a two and four year old to a sports bar, but didn't think it would be such a great idea :p : ) Reading the comments here, it was a blessing in disguise, not to have seen that race.

Why not just listen to it on the radio?


Then why didn't the tires in the Indy 500 experience this problem?

They had a similar problem. See my link to John Andretti's crash.


It matters because the diamond grinding is the issue, not the actual asphalt itself. It is the ridges that result from the diamond grinding process that make the track abrasive and those have been there continuously since the 2002 race. Goodyear should have been in no way surprised by this issue.

Just because the track was ground in 2002 doesn't mean that data from that time is relevant.

Dimaond ground Pavement X=/=Diamond ground Pavement Y


I wonder if the Motorcycle folks are having second thoughts about racing at IMS?

They started having second thoughts before they agreed to the race. That's why the snakepit complex was built.

[Rex Monaco]

They had a similar problem. See my link to John Andretti's crash.

The creation of marbles isn't at all similar to exploding tires.

And the Indy 500 wasn't yellow flagged every 10 laps for marbles, nor did the teams come in every 10 laps to change their tires!

[ShiftingGears]

I wonder if the Motorcycle folks are having second thoughts about racing at IMS?

Doubt it. The MotoGP course doesn't actually use any of the oval turns. It's like the F1 course, but with a chicane at the Snake Pit, and anticlockwise.

[AussieV8]

I would argue the stands weren't significantly more than half full yesterday - at least not by NASCAR standards.

On the TV it certainly looked emptier than what it has appeared in previous years. I'm guessing people may have known about the tyre issue before the race and stayed away.

Anyway, when Goodyear is the sole tyre supplier for the entire series, why on earth did they stuff up so badly? Surely they should have brought a harder compound. Even when Michelin had the problems in F1 a few years ago, it wasn't a certainty that the tyre would fail after 10 laps (like the Nascar race where everyone was wearing the tyre down to the cords), it was just a possibility depending on the car set up. ie: Goodyear missed it by much more than Michelin.

The only reason Nascar sort of got out of it with the cautions is because everyone was on the same tyre. If they had done that with the F1 race, then it would be an unfair penatly to Bridgestone as they had brought a tyre suitable to the track.

[Lee Roy]

The people who get hurt worst in a depression are the blue collar workers. That is who still by and large support nascar.

Please leave your stereotyping of people and elitism over on the open-wheel forums where it is welcome.

[Alexamateo]

Why not just listen to it on the radio?


Oh I tried that too. :p : It is usually carried by 105.9 here in Memphis TN, and it was listed as being on in the Sunday Sports section, but for some reason, they weren't carrying the race, I searched around looking for another more distant station, but I guess atmospheric conditions weren't right.

[indycool]

NASCAR and Goodyear should not have been surprised by the problem that occurred. In the 2007 race at IMS, NASCAR scheduled and threw a "competition yellow" to check tires for wear at Lap 20 because they foresaw a potential problem. Only a couple were bad, and the race continued in "real time."

Now, we go to 2008 and we have the COT. Goodyear ran a three-car test in April in 55-60-degree weather. I have heard that the most laps turned during that test in a row was 12 by Earnhardt Jr. The COT has a higher center of gravity and puts more load on the right rear. I've had two friends who were sitting in the third-turn stands who said they were covered with black tire dust when the race was over.

IMO, the COT didn't fix what wasn't broken in the first place. And ever since Goodyear paid NASCAR for exclusivity as a tire, it's had problems.

[pdalbey]

Please leave your stereotyping of people and elitism over on the open-wheel forums where it is welcome.
I don't think that Dave meant that as an insult in any way. I work with a lot of blue collar, union laborers and I would say that at least 40% of the offices/labs/workshops that I go into have some sort of NASCAR paraphenalia in them. By contrast, very few white collar offices that I step into have a NASCAR calendar or die-cast, or poster hanging on the wall.

BTW, to the people that are comparing the Goodyear problems to the Michelin problems of 2005, the issues are completely separate. The F1 tire problem came about because Michelin's construction wasn't compatible with the banking in turn 13 (turn 1 of the oval). It didn't have a single thing to do with the abrasiveness of the track. Goodyear, on the other hand, has nothing to do with the banking (well, ok it has a LITTLE to do with the banking - more with the LACK of banking) but has almost everything to do with the grinding and abrasiveness of the track. Trying to relate the two together is a futile and errant exercise.

[Lee Roy]

I don't think that Dave meant that as an insult in any way. I work with a lot of blue collar, union laborers and I would say that at least 40% of the offices/labs/workshops that I go into have some sort of NASCAR paraphenalia in them. By contrast, very few white collar offices that I step into have a NASCAR calendar or die-cast, or poster hanging on the wall.


Well shoot, there ya go then. All the evidence we need. I guess I'll go and ask for my sister's hand in marriage. :roll:

Doesn't mean much from you, I know the forum you hang out in the most, a noted NASCAR Hate site.

http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111896

[pdalbey]

Don't go lumping me into that same group. I just noted what I had observed. I did not suggest in any way that NASCAR fans were dumb hillbillies. I don't think that Dave did either. He and I simply said that a lot of blue-collar workers are NASCAR fans.

Yes, I am an IndyCar fan and if Scott Dixon had left skid marks down the front straightaway after winning the 500 this year, I would have said the exact same thing. You can bet your last dollar on it! I didn't like when Wheldon did donuts in turn 4 in 2005 and I certainly didn't like when I showed up for the 2007 500 and Johnson's burnout marks from 2006 were still streaked across the bricks.

[Chaparral66]

WORD!!!!!!!!

I agree wholeheartedly.

Tony George isn't doing a thing, he said in the Indy Star that it's NASCAR's problem. He isn't changing the track for them. Apparently, he feels if NASCAR fails to run a proper test there to get familiar with the surface, it's not his issue.

You guys probably won't like this at all, but I blame Tony Stewart for this travesty. He went on that anti-Goodyear tire rant back in Atlanta, not taking into account the dynamics of the new car and how it wold affect past set-ups. He took every opportunity to trash Goodyear as ruthlessly as possible, which isn't too surprising since he was a staunch Firestone guy in the IRL. Obviously, Tony isn't a journeyman driver or a snot nosed rookie, whom everyone could blow off. No, he's an elite driver whose word carries some weight. Everybody would pay attention to Stewart whining to get grippier tires.

Well, now you've got 'em. Happy? Stewart's rant cast a shadow over the fact that there were no tire failures at Atlanta. Sure, the tires didn't grip as well, but so what? Deal with it. The new car's chassis dynamics apparently are so different from the old car's, that set-ups are practically going to have to start from square one. It's easy to make the tires a scapegoat, just throwing one set on after another, trying to find grip but also trying to make them last. At Indy, it was clear almost from the start that you couldn't have both.

Goodyear doesn't get off scott free here, either. They need to stand up to the diva drivers when they endlessly complain of something and affirm that in the interest of safety, this is how it is. Some of the old school drivers like Richard Petty and even Bill Elliott probably can't believe how spoiled contemporary drivers are. If you had a tire that wasn't as grippy, you just adjusted your driving style to compensate. No one said this was easy or else everyone would be doing it. But Goodyear also should bring an alternative compound to each track to give the teams an option should the primary compound not work as well as expected, so as to prevent the joke of a race we had on Sunday.

Last thing: a three team tire test doesn't cut it (pun very much intended) when it comes to one of the biggest races of the year for both teams and fans. TG isn't going to change the track surface anytime soon, so NASCAR needs to take IMS a lot more seriously if it wants to continue to have one of it's biggest paydays. Threatening to pull out of Indy isn't going to scare Tony George one bit, not after what he went through with the open wheel war.

[indycool]

Lee Roy, I'm far from a NASCAR hater -- I enjoy NASCAR racing, and Chap makes some good points here.

Read my post above. I don't think NASCAR or Goodyear appreciated their perceived problem from 2007, put the COT on the track for the first time, and completely dismissed the idea that there could be a problem.

The track hasn't been touched since 2005. It's always been the smoothest track in the country. It still is.

[Sparky1329]

I suffered through TWIN last evening to hear what Biffle's take would be on the catastrophe that NASCAR called a race. He seemed to place major blame for the fiasco on the COT. He said the car leans so hard on the right side especially in the corners that the car is literally running on the two right side tires.

The track didn't change and GYear claims the tire compound was the same as last year's race. The only thing different is the POS COT flying brick.

[DavePI2]

I certainly didn't mean to put down blue collar workers, I am one myself. I am just stating a fact, in a recession the sports that get hurt are sports like racing. I doubt that golf has that problem. My point remains, when the economy recovers attendance will recover also.

david

[Sparky1329]

I certainly didn't mean to put down blue collar workers, I am one myself. I am just stating a fact, in a recession the sports that get hurt are sports like racing. I doubt that golf has that problem. My point remains, when the economy recovers attendance will recover also.

david

It won't if NASCAR doesn't get a clue about the quality of the racing.

[-Helix-]

NASCAR has been going downhill since it peaked in the 70's, then they got the bright idea to start going BACKWARDS technologically and ruin stock car racing forever. You used to be able to go buy on Monday what you saw race on Sunday. Anything else is not stock car racing. And the cars just kept getting progressively worse as the years went by. It's a shame it took this crappy new car for people to realize just how sad it is.

I was a fan when I was a kid and didn't know any better but I honestly have no idea how anyone can stand to watch a NASCAR "race" (if you want to call it racing) these days. The cars were crappy and the racing a joke back in my day too but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is today. The CoT will hopefully go down in history as the final nail in the coffin and people will realize that there's actual REAL racing out there and they shouldn't feel forced to watch this crap.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this post but this is all just my opinion.

[Rex Monaco]

...just my opinion.

This comes from someone who thinks the Honda 500 at Indy is considered 'real' racing.

[indycool]

Here's what all the big kids had to say.......

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/SPORTS0109/807290386/1004/SPORTS

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/SPORTS0109/80729051

[Chaparral66]

Here's what all the big kids had to say.......

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/SPORTS0109/807290386/1004/SPORTS

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/SPORTS0109/80729051

That's it, IC, that is the Indy Star column with TG's comments I referred to earlier. There is simply no reason for the track surface to change, this is NASCAR's issue, not IMS's.

I've been a Goodyear man all my life and I am sorry to see them struggle like this. Like I said, I don't think this is really Goodyear's fault, they brought the tire that the drivers wanted and it bit them in the A$$. And at $1600 a set, yikes. Goodyear should have brought the harder compound.

Having said that, it is still unacceptable for those tires to fail so quickly, and not even leave any rubber on the track. That's a lot of money that went up in Jimmie Johnson's victory tire smoke on Sunday. Goodyear simply has to do better, and just saying they will isn't going to be enough. If there were actual tire competition, maybe that would make them raise their game. But then, the last two time that Goodyear has faced competition, they have turned tail and run, as they did in F1 and AOWR. Not a record to brag about.

So what would happen if the Bridgestone/Firestone brand decided to make a run at Sprint Cup when the current contract with Goodyear is up? What would their approach be to the issues that currently seem to befuddle Goodyear? Gordon Kirby wrote a column on his website at GordonKirby.com that took a serious look at how Bridgestone/Firestone operates in AOWR and F1, and why they have beat back everybody from Goodyear to Michelin. Take a look:

[url=http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2007/the_way_it_is_no56.html]

[Chaparral66]

Still can't figure out to engage the link on the page like IC did...IC can you tell me how that is done, anyone?

[Chaparral66]

Here's what all the big kids had to say.......

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/SPORTS0109/807290386/1004/SPORTS

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/SPORTS0109/80729051

That's it, IC, that is the Indy Star column with TG's comments I referred to earlier. There is simply no reason for the track surface to change, this is NASCAR's issue, not IMS's.

I've been a Goodyear man all my life and I am sorry to see them struggle like this. Like I said, I don't think this is really Goodyear's fault, they brought the tire that the drivers wanted and it bit them in the A$$. And at $1600 a set, yikes. Goodyear should have brought the harder compound.

Having said that, it is still unacceptable for those tires to fail so quickly, and not even leave any rubber on the track. That's a lot of money that went up in Jimmie Johnson's victory tire smoke on Sunday. Goodyear simply has to do better, and just saying they will isn't going to be enough. If there were actual tire competition, maybe that would make them raise their game. But then, the last two time that Goodyear has faced competition, they have turned tail and run, as they did in F1 and AOWR. Not a record to brag about.

So what would happen if the Bridgestone/Firestone brand decided to make a run at Sprint Cup when the current contract with Goodyear is up? What would their approach be to the issues that currently seem to befuddle Goodyear? Gordon Kirby wrote a column on his website at GordonKirby.com that took a serious look at how Bridgestone/Firestone operates in AOWR and F1, and why they have beat back everybody from Goodyear to Michelin. Take a look:

[url=http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2007/the_way_it_is_no56.html]

Or, go to GordonKirby.com and look for The Way It Is, column #56.

[Lemmy-Boy]

NASCAR has been going downhill since it peaked in the 70's...

The 70's? Let me repeat, Nascar peaked in the 70's? Hahahaha....

Didn't NASCAR sign a multi-billion dollar NETWORK TV deal with Fox, NBC, & ABC a couple years ago? Golly Gee....I guess rising from its southern roots, only to grow into a national phenomenon (the past 10 years) is a mute point that never happened. :rolleyes: