Defending your position

[wedge]

Piquet and Massa both made poor attempts ie. leaving the door open at the last minute so they can have the better line into the corner :confused:

Is this something brought up in driver's meetings or something? Lewis did a similar thing in Malaysia last year and Massa outbraked himself.

Are drivers naive? They must know that Lewis is exceptional under braking.

[ArrowsFA1]

Piquet and Massa both made poor attempts ie. leaving the door open at the last minute so they can have the better line into the corner :confused:
Massa has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69337) "I didn't have the car to fight" and Piquet said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69336) that "I knew Lewis would come by quickly", so perhaps rather than being poor attempts at defending they simply accepted that they were beaten.

[Mark]

Senna vs Mansell at Monaco springs to mind. You are never beaten until you are beaten ;)

Senna vs Mansell at Monaco springs to mind. You are never beaten until you are beaten ;)

Yes, but it's a damn sight easier to keep somebody behind in the Principality than it is at Hockenheim.

[bontebempo]

Massa tried but is a poor racer and Nelson needed to secure a guaranteed podium so was not going to risk it. Hamilton has nothing to prove and is so high on his own hype would have risked a move.

[Knock-on]

Senna vs Mansell at Monaco springs to mind. You are never beaten until you are beaten ;)


Alonso keeping Schumacher behind as well.

[wedge]

Senna vs Mansell at Monaco springs to mind. You are never beaten until you are beaten ;)

Alonso v Schumi at Turkey 2006 would be a better example. Ferrari was the better car at that race and Alonso was in the inferior car and Schumi still couldn't get past Alonso on the back straight.

[jens]

Whoever is struggling in defending his position, should take some lessons from Jarno. :p :

[Sleeper]

Defensive driving seems to be something lacking in most of the current drivers, maybe Alonso, Button and Fisichella should start giving lessons in this area as, from what I've seen, they are undoubtedly the best three out there.

[jens]

Defensive driving seems to be something lacking in most of the current drivers, maybe Alonso, Button and Fisichella should start giving lessons in this area as, from what I've seen, they are undoubtedly the best three out there.

Button defends better than Trulli (or I may mention several other drivers here too) - how is that possible? :p :

[Mark]

Trulli got fired from Renault for his lack of defending!

[jens]

Everyone has made mistakes. It's strange, how folks dismiss Trulli for one error, while others have made loads of them.

[Sleeper]

Button defends better than Trulli (or I may mention several other drivers here too) - how is that possible? :p :
Yeah, OK, I should have added Trulli to that list as he's normally quite good at defending (dont think Vettel would agree though :p ), but Monza last year was an impressive showing on that front from Button.

[jens]

Vettel? Trulli made a mistake and ran off the road, and doing it it's quite hard to defend, especially if the other guy stays between the white lines, which enabled Vettel to pass. And Jarno didn't run wide in a defending situation, but he was a few seconds clear of Vettel before that mistake. Some similarities between KR vs MS "battle" in France in 2002. :p :

[ioan]

Piquet and Massa both made poor attempts ie. leaving the door open at the last minute so they can have the better line into the corner :confused:

Is this something brought up in driver's meetings or something? Lewis did a similar thing in Malaysia last year and Massa outbraked himself.

Are drivers naive? They must know that Lewis is exceptional under braking.

Massa was having problems with overheated brakes, how was he supposed to defend any better? By outbraking himself and losing 3rd pace too?

I have to say I was dissapointed after the SC period as I was expecting him to attack, but it soon became obvious that the car was not there.
He took the right decision and went for the points he knew he can get not for the ones that were out of his car's reach.

[ioan]

BTW I think that Vettel did the best job in defending his position for the whole GP.
Kimi went by him, but he did so by gaining the upper hand on the straight and still Vettel tried to come back under braking.

[Zico]

I was stunned to see Massa give him so much room.. give Lewis an inch and he bullies you into making it a mile.

If Shumacher had a problem with his brakes overheating he would still have defended that attempt ten times more aggresively..
I reckon Fellipe had lost that battle long before the move was even made on him.... in his head. Self belief doesnt seem to be one of his virtues.
His qualifying performances are usually top notch but his ability (bravery) to race wheel to wheel without flinching is what lets him down so badly.

I still think Rubens would be a better option.


Lewis was incredible on the brakes yesterday. I believe, that particular skill he displayed so well, could well be what gives him the edge over both his closest rivals in this years championship.

[wedge]

Massa was having problems with overheated brakes, how was he supposed to defend any better? By outbraking himself and losing 3rd pace too?

Still no reason to leave the door open at the last moment. He should've stayed on the inside line, make Lewis do the hard work on the outside line.

[Rollo]

BTW I think that Vettel did the best job in defending his position for the whole GP.
Kimi went by him, but he did so by gaining the upper hand on the straight and still Vettel tried to come back under braking.

What makes this even more remarkable was that Vettel's car was quite abominable for this GP. I don't think that Toro Rosso ever came to grips with the car this weekend, it looked skittish and confused under braking.

[Valve Bounce]

Piquet and Massa both made poor attempts ie. leaving the door open at the last minute so they can have the better line into the corner :confused:

Is this something brought up in driver's meetings or something? Lewis did a similar thing in Malaysia last year and Massa outbraked himself.

Are drivers naive? They must know that Lewis is exceptional under braking.

Why would anyone want to plonk a chair on the beach to stop the incoming tide?

[Valve Bounce]

Still no reason to leave the door open at the last moment. He should've stayed on the inside line, make Lewis do the hard work on the outside line.

Maybe he thought he was being lapped by a faster car? :p :

[kalasend]

Defensive driving seems to be something lacking in most of the current drivers, maybe Alonso, Button and Fisichella should start giving lessons in this area as, from what I've seen, they are undoubtedly the best three out there.

Fisichella.......remember Suzuka 2005?

[ShiftingGears]

Defensive driving seems to be something lacking in most of the current drivers, maybe Alonso, Button and Fisichella should start giving lessons in this area as, from what I've seen, they are undoubtedly the best three out there.

Button and Fisichella?

Fisichella buckles under pressure really easily, and Button always seems to get passed really easily, unless it involves Coulthard.

[wedge]

Bring back Sato!

He knows a thing or two on the art of defensive driving. Remember his first race for Super Aguri where he got a fantastic start and held up a train of cars which included Barrichello for the first ten laps or so.

[mattlamb]

Glock may well be good at defending positions. He was the only driver to make a fight of it with Hamilton in the race where Hamilton charged through from near the back of the field to second in GP2 a couple of years ago. Most drivers (including Piquet, I seem to recall) just let him through!

Jacques Villeneuve was good at defending positions

[jens]

Glock may well be good at defending positions. He was the only driver to make a fight of it with Hamilton in the race where Hamilton charged through from near the back of the field to second in GP2 a couple of years ago. Most drivers (including Piquet, I seem to recall) just let him through!


Yeah. And it's not just about defending, but Timo is generally a spirited fighter. For example in Turkey he actually repassed Kovalainen after the Finn had fought past him! Also a nice battle with Vettel in Germany and defending against Alonso in Bahrain.

[Dave B]

Why would anyone want to plonk a chair on the beach to stop the incoming tide?
I can't help but think that part of the blame lies with the current points system. If you're being challenged for the lead by a faster car, there's no real incentive to fight it out over a mere two points - especially if you're in the hunt for a championship.

Better to settle for a safe 8 points for second place than to risk running off the road and going home with nowt, sadly.

[Bezza]

I can understand Piquet's lack of defence, because he's inexperienced and never been on the podium before, and didn't want to harm that.

However, Massa was a different story. Even IF you don't have the car underneath you to your liking, you must up a bigger fight than what he did. He didn't even defend the inside, which is ridiculous. Make Hamilton do it the hard way. If you hold him up long enough then he may not have enough time to catch Piquet and therefore you only lose 2 points, rather than 4 to him.

I can assure you that Alonso wouldn't have let him past so easily!

[markabilly]

Alonso has much the same ability as Colin Edwards would occaisionally show (esp one year in WSBK) as well Rossi at the recent Seca Motogp. Because of size, one would think that blocking in Motogp would not really work all that well, except for weaving on the straight....however, motogp has no mirrors to see your opponent, and as Rossi demonstrated with braking, positioning then cutting the throttle at the apex and delaying its use on an inconsistent basis, such that the rider behind is forced to observe the rider (or driver) in front to avoid an accident rather than figuring out how to pass.

It is an ability to use brakes, position and throttle in such a manner as to throw the other driver's rythm off, to keep them from getting a good run out of the corner and force them to take a dirty line to the outside to pass--- without having to engage in a bunch of weaving on the straight, that is Alonso's secret.

Indeed, as DC once found out at an British GP several years ago when he had a fairly massive crash going off road to avoid the rear of FA, it was a willingness to slam on the brakes at inconsistent points on the track just to have the driver behind run into him. Over the years, FA seems to have gotten more crafty, so it is not so obvious.....

now is that dirty play?? well Stoner certainly thought so at Seca, DC certainly thought so when he went off.....

and interestingly enough, Hamilton was carving through the field to make up lost posisitions, except once he got close to being behind FA, he slowed and made no further progress..ended up finishing about two seconds behind FA..humm i wonder if...

[wedge]

and interestingly enough, Hamilton was carving through the field to make up lost posisitions, except once he got close to being behind FA, he slowed and made no further progress..ended up finishing about two seconds behind FA..humm i wonder if...

IMO LH settled for points finish, not worth damaging your car against the calibre of Alonso. He knows how tough FA is to pass - he hypocritically criticised FA at Spa last year for the first lap manouvre at La Source.

Delaying throttle/brake early = dirty tactics? No. Senna did exactly the same thing to hold off Mansell - Mansell sportingly said it was a great win for Senna after that race in Monaco 1992. Alonso and Schumi used the same tactics to beat each other for the best wins in Imola post-Senna.

However Senna used to play those silly games to Schumi during testing circa 1992 to the point Schumi wanted to punch Senna at Hockenheim.

[Dave B]

IMO LH settled for points finish, not worth damaging your car against the calibre of Alonso. He knows how tough FA is to pass - he hypocritically criticised FA at Spa last year for the first lap manouvre at La Source.

More like not wanting to risk another tyre problem while running a 30-lap stint on the unfavoured supersofts - when the team had originally planned a far shorter final stint.

[Garry Walker]

I was very dissapointed in Massa and Piquet that they gave up so easily, who cares that Massa had brake problems or not, he just opened wide and let Lewis push him wide. Witness Schumacher vs Hill at Spa 1995 to see real defensive driving.

At least both showed some agressiveness yesterday and Massa made a superb move at the start.

Someone said fisichella and Button are excellent defensive drivers, that`s one of the funniest things ever said on a forum

[PolePosition_1]

I thought Piquet defended his position against Trulli when Piquest was exiting pits incredibly well.

It was very harsh, but fully within his rights and impressive to watch.

Piquet has been really solid now since France. He should definately be re-signed on for next year.

[Mikeall]

A lot of the tracks F1 races at are extremely wide and when a driver does get close in order to overtake it is often quite difficult for the defending driver to defend enough to block the inside line without seriously compromising his line. At non F1 standard race tracks the width of the track is often much less and defending position seems to be easier. For example I was watching a Formula Ford race at Knockhill and the leading driver positioned his car in the right place ensuring that it was impossible to get another car alongside despite the next driver being extremely close. Vettel did a similar job against Alonso but it is rare to see that many overtaking attempts fail in F1, normally they can't get close enough to each other or go for an all or nothing manouvere

[Sleeper]

Button and Fisichella?

Fisichella buckles under pressure really easily, and Button always seems to get passed really easily, unless it involves Coulthard.
How long did it take Heidfeldt to get past Fisichella in Spain this year? A dozen laps at least.

Give me three examples where Button's been passed real easily (not including Indy 03, where he said he let Schumy through).

[Knock-on]

A lot of the tracks F1 races at are extremely wide and when a driver does get close in order to overtake it is often quite difficult for the defending driver to defend enough to block the inside line without seriously compromising his line. At non F1 standard race tracks the width of the track is often much less and defending position seems to be easier. For example I was watching a Formula Ford race at Knockhill and the leading driver positioned his car in the right place ensuring that it was impossible to get another car alongside despite the next driver being extremely close. Vettel did a similar job against Alonso but it is rare to see that many overtaking attempts fail in F1, normally they can't get close enough to each other or go for an all or nothing manouvere



Any Formula Ford driver that gets extremely close cannot resist the natural urge to punt him up the a*se!!

It's human nature. Ask any Formula Clio driver :D

[truefan72]

More like not wanting to risk another tyre problem while running a 30-lap stint on the unfavoured supersofts - when the team had originally planned a far shorter final stint.


I completely agree.

He's already passed Alonso on the track a couple of times this year.

If he had been behind Alonso earlier in the stint, then he would have challenged him, but as the graining wore on, it became evident that bringing the car home was more of a priorty than pushing those super softs beyond the McLaren limits.

btw. I always felt they (Mac's) should use the supersofts either at the start or the 2nd stint, but never the last. It seems to me that they should maximize their options in getting off them as soon as possible.

[wedge]

How long did it take Heidfeldt to get past Fisichella in Spain this year? A dozen laps at least.

Give me three examples where Button's been passed real easily (not including Indy 03, where he said he let Schumy through).

I seem to remember Button let Schumi easily through in Malaysia at the first corner, can't remember if it 03/04.

I thought he could've done better to hold up Schumi in Imola 2005 though he put up a good fight against Alonso in Melbourne 2006 considering couldn't get his tyres warm enough.

Button's stuck at the wrong end of the grid these days and considering Sato's efforts in recent years its debatable, possibly erring towards could do better at defending.

[jens]

Talking about defending, 2008 has proved that it is very difficult to pass Coulthard too. :p :


How long did it take Heidfeldt to get past Fisichella in Spain this year? A dozen laps at least.

Give me three examples where Button's been passed real easily (not including Indy 03, where he said he let Schumy through).

2005 Imola (as has been mentioned here)
2006 Melbourne (restarts after SC's: 1 - Alonso, 2 - Räikkönen)
2006 Hockenheim (Räikkönen went to P3: very similar to what we saw at Hock this year - JB left the door open in the same corner).

I guess every driver has his poor days, but you asked for 3 examples, so had to find them. :)

[ioan]

It was nice to see Felipe pass Hamilton 2 weeks after Hamilton has said that he sure wouldn't have let anyone by if he was in Felipe's place (with brake problems).

So, Lewy, how long did you manage to keep him behind you?! :laugh:

[wedge]

It was nice to see Felipe pass Hamilton 2 weeks after Hamilton has said that he sure wouldn't have let anyone by if he was in Felipe's place (with brake problems).

So, Lewy, how long did you manage to keep him behind you?! :laugh:

True but even Schumi got beaten!!

It was a fantastic move on the outside, couldn't ask more from Lewis as he protected the inside line unless he took out Massa!

You can't deny that in a straight head to head you'd put your money on Lewis overtaking Massa than Massa overtaking Lewis.

[ShiftingGears]

It was nice to see Felipe pass Hamilton 2 weeks after Hamilton has said that he sure wouldn't have let anyone by if he was in Felipe's place (with brake problems).

Brakes or no brakes, Massa did an awful job of defending that position. Can you at least admit that much?

[ioan]

Brakes or no brakes, Massa did an awful job of defending that position. Can you at least admit that much?

He kept the inside line as long as possible than he went the safe way around the corner. What was he supposed to do when he was struggling with the brakes?
Try to outbrake the McLaren and ruin all his chances?!

And if Massa did an awful job, by your standards, than Hamilton being overtaken on the outside did a catastrophic job. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

You can't deny that in a straight head to head you'd put your money on Lewis overtaking Massa than Massa overtaking Lewis.

Not sure about that.
If it's during a season when the title is involved than for sure Massa will risk less and go the safe way.
However he has been champion on every category he raced up to now, so he can't be bad at passing and defending, and in a race outside the championship I would rather put money on him than on Hamilton's optimistic moves.

[wedge]

And if Massa did an awful job, by your standards, than Hamilton being overtaken on the outside did a catastrophic job. :rolleyes:

Massa did the hardwork on the outside line, which was why he gets credit at Hungary.

Massa should've made Lewis do the hardwork at Germany - defending the inside line force Lewis to use the harder outside line.