Where are the cars?

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69357

Kimi thinks that McLaren have overtaken Ferrari?

I'm not too sure. I think that there is one driver out there that has taken this championship by the scruff of the neck and is making the difference.

What is evident is that McLaren have closed the gap and are on par with Ferrari now.

BMW still look strong and Toyota are starting to make inroads.

Renault are all over the shop, Williams show flashes and Honda are hopeless.

[ArrowsFA1]

How is it possible to definatively say which car is quicker than another? Obviously the Ferrari is quicker than, for example, the Force India, but when it comes to making comparisons between the likes of Ferrari and McLaren it's almost impossible to say IMHO.

Ok, so Hamilton's McLaren has convincingly won the last two races, but in the British GP Ferrari admitted to errors and Kimi did beat Heikki's McLaren. Yesterday Massa was there or thereabouts, and may have challenged for the win but for brake problems. Kimi & Heikki finished a couple of seconds apart.

That does rather suggest the cars are evenly matched and it is the drivers making the difference, but I think there are too many variables to be certain.

[Knock-on]

How is it possible to definatively say which car is quicker than another? Obviously the Ferrari is quicker than, for example, the Force India, but when it comes to making comparisons between the likes of Ferrari and McLaren it's almost impossible to say IMHO.

Ok, so Hamilton's McLaren has convincingly won the last two races, but in the British GP Ferrari admitted to errors and Kimi did beat Heikki's McLaren. Yesterday Massa was there or thereabouts, and may have challenged for the win but for brake problems. Kimi & Heikki finished a couple of seconds apart.

That does rather suggest the cars are evenly matched and it is the drivers making the difference, but I think there are too many variables to be certain.


Oh, I agree.

Could it be that McLaren are just getting the best out of the car and the better race setup whereas the Ferrari has the potential to be the best?

We don't know.

It seems that they are very similar on performance at the moment.

[Dave B]

In the last two races, McLaren have been compromised because their cars suffer from higher tyre wear than Ferrari. In the wet at Silverstone Lewis opted not to go onto extreme wets because the blocks would have heated up too quickly, necessitating another change; in Germany he employed a very risky strategy so as not to run for long on the softer tyres which would have grained up after another few laps.

Circumstances benefited them, and Hamilton was more than able to cope with the situations, but there's no reason to assume that McLaren will have it all their own way for the rest of the season.

Lewis is only 4 points clear, it could all switch round in one race.

[Knock-on]

There's a long way to go for sure but momentum is what wins championships.

I just wonder if Ferrari need to be a bit more agressive?

McLaren are suffering higher tyre wear but perhaps that's because they are a bit more on the edge.

[ArrowsFA1]

Lewis is only 4 points clear, it could all switch round in one race.

There's a long way to go for sure but momentum is what wins championships.
Indeed. After Canada and France Hamilton was being written off by some, while Ferrari won those two races and the momentum appeared to be with the boys in red.

[Knock-on]

Indeed. After Canada and France Hamilton was being written off by some, while Ferrari won those two races and the momentum appeared to be with the boys in red.


Mclaren have done a great job. I don't think anyone can deny that.

Lewis appears to be on the crest of a way and his boyant mood is evident.

Also, very much in evidence, was the look of dejection on Massa's face in the press conference. He looked totally defeated and this, more than anything else, sums up the difference between the 2 teams.

If body language won races, Felipe would be fighting with Force India.

[Storm]

Atleast in Germany , McLaren was clearly the quicker car of the two and of course Lewis put in a great performance too.

It's a combination really...Ferrari and McLaren are very close to each other in performance and I would have given Ferrari the slight edge till Silverstone, but now it looks like this may swing each race though McLaren seem to have edged forward slightly on pace.
The fact is Ferrari drivers making mistakes (Massa in Silverstone) and their poor strategies have also made Hamilton look invincible. Yesterday he put in a flawless and swashbuckling drive but the red cars did seem to be struggling to keep up and not just due to lack of driving talent.

IMO Hamilton is talented, but I do not believe he is "vastly" better than Kimi or Massa or Alonso either. This is all very subjective but it does appear they are at similar levels but Hamilton is on "form" so to speak and mentally up for the challenge while Alonso (slow car has frustrated him), Kimi (WDC slipping away and not able to stamp his authority in qualifying or races this year) and Massa (inconsistent performances, wins a race superbly and then next race is slow or makes mistakes) have had more of mental issues or haven't been able to overcome those as effectively as Lewis has.
Well done to him for that but I hope for our (fans) sake, Kimi and Massa don't throw in the towel and we get a final race showdown for the title.

[wedge]

Oh, I agree.

Could it be that McLaren are just getting the best out of the car and the better race setup whereas the Ferrari has the potential to be the best?

We don't know.

It seems that they are very similar on performance at the moment.

Brundle suggested Ferrari/Kimi struggled because they was looking at set up which probably wasn't there, but Massa looked to be the better car on long runs during practice and then claims to suffer problems on the last stint.

[Knock-on]

Brundle suggested Ferrari/Kimi struggled because they was looking at set up which probably wasn't there, but Massa looked to be the better car on long runs during practice and then claims to suffer problems on the last stint.

There is a lot of grumbling going on but that's understandable.

Lets just take a step back and cover Silverstone again.

A lot of people are claiming that McLaren had the best car. Based on what?

Hekki put in a stunning qualification as did Webber. Lewis and Kimi didn't have the best and Massa was running a setup more suited to the Paris Dakar than F1.

Rain, as we know is a great equaliser and the difference on the day was the drivers in my opinion.

In Germany, the cars looked pretty equal between Massa and Lewis with the Brit a couple of 10ths ahead on qualifying. I just think that looking at Hekki's pace, Lewis did a better drive and Massa didn't look comfortable out there. Kimi just had a rubbish setup this time as Massa did last.

i think they need to dial that Ferrari in better and then hopefully the Ferrari's can make a more competitive showing now. It hasn't gone from a great car to a crap one overnight. It's just that they're only getting 95% from it.

[MAX_THRUST]

It just worries me what will happen off track to affect this years championship. I don't believe Ferrari will want to loose this year, so to what ends will they go to this year????

The next two races should favour the Merc's/MAcs chasis better than the longer Ferrari

[Knock-on]

It just worries me what will happen off track to affect this years championship. I don't believe Ferrari will want to loose this year, so to what ends will they go to this year????

The next two races should favour the Merc's/MAcs chasis better than the longer Ferrari

You must be a mind reader :D

Politics have already played a part of this years championship but what part whill they play towards the end.

Call me paranoid at the end of the season if you want but I just think Max is going to stick his nose in if McLaren keep doing well and close the Constructors gap.

19 points is a huge difference but 9?

It just worries me what will happen off track to affect this years championship. I don't believe Ferrari will want to loose this year, so to what ends will they go to this year????




Call me paranoid at the end of the season if you want but I just think Max is going to stick his nose in if McLaren keep doing well and close the Constructors gap.


Well, so long as Mclaren don't have their hand in the till, then there won't be any 'ends' that Ferrari can go to.

Remember, Mclaren were not innocent last year.

[Knock-on]

Well, so long as Mclaren don't have their hand in the till, then there won't be any 'ends' that Ferrari can go to.

Remember, Mclaren were not innocent last year.

:rolleyes:

Like a stuck record :(

[MAX_THRUST]

Many other teams have been caught cheating it just wasn't dragged through the courts, probably as the other teams were not such a threat (please don't ask for quotes or proof).

Secondly the reason why MAx is so adamntly so against the N*** connotations of his ar** whipping actions is because Max doesn't want to be called a racist. Especially when he went all guns blazing against the only team with a driver who was of mixed race, ie not white.

He knows he is treading on egg shells. Lets hope the FIA will stand up to Ferrari this year.

Oh and on last years court case, you still got to ask why the security at Ferrari is so poor??? If someone gave you a million pound would you ask where it came from or just take it?

[Robinho]

perhaps Ferrari are missing the influence of Nigel Stepney?

[Sleeper]

perhaps Ferrari are missing the influence of Nigel Stepney?
Its been said he was a large part of why the red cars were bullit proof at one time, but it was after he as moved over in 06 that we started seeing the odd brake down here and there.

The difference in pace between the top two is going to change almost race by race because they are both absolute powerhouses in the R&D department, with both of them comming up with new parts for every race. The difference comes down to who gets the big updates done better and quicker and these two are pretty even.

As for backroom controversy, I wouldnt count it out. Ferrari play the political game more forcefully than anyone (I would say better, but that would suggest that its a desirable quality) and have pushed the FIA into rule changes mid to late season before (Michelin tyre measurments in 03, mass damper ban in 06 etc).

[jens]

Where are the cars? Everywhere!

Anyway, rating a machinery depends on point of view and subjective rating too. Let's look at the German GP.

In qualifying Ferrari and McLaren were roughly equal. Considering that Massa pitted two laps later in the race, then losing pole by 1,5 tenths means that he roughly had the same pace as Lewis.

In the race, however, Hamilton was driving a lot faster than anyone else. Either you believe McLaren is a lot better over long stints than shorter stints or you believe Hamilton was a lot quicker than the other three drivers in top teams. If we look at Hamilton's team-mate Kovalainen, then he had roughly the same pace as the Ferraris. Also in qualifying despite mistakes Kovalainen's pace was closer to Hamilton than in the race, where he didn't make mistakes. So at least this comparison suggests that Hamilton did clearly the best job out of the four drivers in the race. But how much was the car quicker or - if we are looking at HK's pace - whether it was quicker at all, is a question to which it's hard to give a precise answer.

What is clear, is that McLaren has been doing a great job in car development. :up: Nobody can blame Lewis any more that he doesn't know, how to setup a car. :D

What IMO seems evident, is that BMW has better race than qualifying pace. Kubica qualified 7th and was the lightest together with Hamilton. But in the race he seemed to have some pace as well as Heidfeld, whose quali woes are well-known.

[ioan]

Call me paranoid at the end of the season if you want ...

No problem with that! :D :p :

[wmcot]

It just worries me what will happen off track to affect this years championship. I don't believe Ferrari will want to loose this year, so to what ends will they go to this year????



They won't have to do anything as long as there is a gravel trap at pit entry in China! :)

[ioan]

They won't have to do anything as long as there is a gravel trap at pit entry in China! :)

Maybe the GPDA will ask for it to be removed. No, wait, he isn't part of the GPDA! :D

[Knock-on]

Where are the cars? Everywhere!

Anyway, rating a machinery depends on point of view and subjective rating too. Let's look at the German GP.

In qualifying Ferrari and McLaren were roughly equal. Considering that Massa pitted two laps later in the race, then losing pole by 1,5 tenths means that he roughly had the same pace as Lewis.

In the race, however, Hamilton was driving a lot faster than anyone else. Either you believe McLaren is a lot better over long stints than shorter stints or you believe Hamilton was a lot quicker than the other three drivers in top teams. If we look at Hamilton's team-mate Kovalainen, then he had roughly the same pace as the Ferraris. Also in qualifying despite mistakes Kovalainen's pace was closer to Hamilton than in the race, where he didn't make mistakes. So at least this comparison suggests that Hamilton did clearly the best job out of the four drivers in the race. But how much was the car quicker or - if we are looking at HK's pace - whether it was quicker at all, is a question to which it's hard to give a precise answer.

What is clear, is that McLaren has been doing a great job in car development. :up: Nobody can blame Lewis any more that he doesn't know, how to setup a car. :D

What IMO seems evident, is that BMW has better race than qualifying pace. Kubica qualified 7th and was the lightest together with Hamilton. But in the race he seemed to have some pace as well as Heidfeld, whose quali woes are well-known.

Good points, especially the qualifying fuel weights for Lewis and Massa.

So, if the cars are practically equal, it must come down to the drivers IMHO.

[ArrowsFA1]

Interesting comments (http://www.lewishamilton.com/news/2008/07/Lewis-blow-by-blow-Hockenheim2008) from Lewis about the McLaren:


"...we've really transformed this year's car over the past six weeks. It's now so well-balanced and responsive that it just feels fantastic to drive - you can always trust it and get something more out of it..."

[Storm]

It is down to the drivers obviously but to say that only due to Hamilton's brilliance, the McLaren was that fast on sunday is fanboyism I think.
The cars are close to each other but not exactly at the same level (atleast on every track/conditions)

They set it up well, it is a fast car anyways and of course he drove the wheels off it.

Not to say the other didn't but maybe they need to be more focussed on their driving and do the small things right to match McLaren + Hamilton at the moment.

[Marshall]

We need to remember that Kimi looked like challenging at Silverstone until his strategy went the wrong way, and Felipe's setup was nowhere.

Massa apparently had a brake problem at Hockenheim (from what I read earlier in the thread) so that left us unable to judge where he was in terms of race pace, and this time it was Kimi who had setup trouble.

The other thing we have to remember is that McLaren is solely focused on Lewis with Heikki basically being his right hand man, while the Ferrari guys are both still going for the championship. It reminds me of the Ferrari/Schumacher days where Ferrari's full weight was behind Michael. Kimi, Felipe and Lewis are all clearly world class drivers that deserve their seats, no matter how much you like any of them.

As a hardcore and lifelong Ferrari fan and someone who isn't Lewis's biggest fan it pains me to say that but I'm still optimistic - it was only a couple of races ago when we were saying that Lewis looked like he was trying everything he could to throw away the title.

The balance will continue to swing. We're only just over half way.

[wedge]

Interesting comments (http://www.lewishamilton.com/news/2008/07/Lewis-blow-by-blow-Hockenheim2008) from Lewis about the McLaren:

Probably a bit premature but is this another indication that Lewis is on the stepping stones of becoming the best of the best?

Does it show he can develop a car? The evidence seems to say yes.

The car was unstable under braking and Lewis was struggling getting the maximum out of the car. But now he's adapted to the car - James Allen mentioned Lewis could hussle last years car and it would do all the right things for him, whereas this year's car is less forgiving; the development of the car is going in the right direction so surely Lewis' contribution to the team effort is paying off when they go testing.

[ArrowsFA1]

Probably a bit premature but is this another indication that Lewis is on the stepping stones of becoming the best of the best?
Mika Hakkinen certainly thinks he's ready for the title (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69385).