Rumored 2009 IC Schedule

[Osiris333]

According to AR1:


St. Petersburg 1.78 Mile Street[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Long Beach 1.97 Mile Street[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Motegi, Japan Sat 1.549 Oval[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Queensland, Au 2.795 Mi Street[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Kansas City 1.5 M Oval[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Indianapolis, IN 2.5 mile Oval[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
West Allis, WI 1.032 Mile Oval[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Ft Worth, TX (Sat. Nite)[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Newton, IA 0.875 Mile Oval[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Richmond, VA (Sat. Night)[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Watkins Glen 3.37 Mile RC[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Lexington, OH 2.258 Mile RC[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Toronto, CN 1.721 Mile Street[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Edmonton CN 1.96 Mi Airport[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Sparta, KY (Sat Nite) 1.5 Mile Oval[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Sonoma, CA RC[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Detroit, MI 2.096 Mi. RC[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
Joliet, Ill. 1.5 Mile Oval[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]
TBA[/*:m:2ioxi3kl]I don't have a problem with it, really. It's a decent transitional schedule. I love that Australia is back in the spring where it belongs. I'd dump Iowa and Richmond for Road America and NH, and finish in Vegas myself. I'd also dump Sonoma for Fontana if I could.

I'd also change the rules to make new smaller front and rear wings to lower the downforce and equalize the competition, put the Handford device on the cars for Kentucky, Motegi, Texas and Chicago, to take the droning boredom out of the 1.5 mi tracks, and hire Panoz to build a variant of the DP-01 for 2010. As long as we're stuck with the CW's for '09 we may as well make the best of it though by cutting some of the downforce to shake up the grid.

Then, put Paul Tracy :vader: in a competitive car for '09, 010, and 011, buy AJ Almendinger's and Scott Speed's contracts from Red Bull and I'd be one happy camper.

Too bad I'm not Tony George.

[drewdawg727]

No, more like thank GOD you're not Tony George, cus he's the most unreasonable and sick being on this Earth.

But back to the topic at hand...I want to see Cleveland and Portland back, IMHO. Those are the roots of CART Racing, and we need to see those back on the schedule.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Here we go again. MarkC is onto things in the ICS now, starts putting things together.

[NickFalzone]

7 road or street out of 19 races is not bad. #19 (if it happens) will hopefully be Vegas. Although Chicago is a great track I'd prefer to see Vegas as the closer.

[fugariracing]

I think it's still in Chicago's contract for 09 to be the finale, but not sure of that. It depends on whether the SMI deal of five races is added or not (NHIS and LVMS).

[nigelred5]

TG, Repeat after me: ROAD AMERICA!

[anthonyvop]

8 races in the Midwest and 1 in the south!

Yep. The brand marketers would love that schedule.

[Rex Monaco]

8 races in the Midwest and 1 in the south!

Yep. The brand marketers would love that schedule.

Kentucky, Virginia and Texas are part of the South. So with Florida, that makes 4.

[icehammer97]

Not really much of a different schedule then this year which was really just the IRL schedule with some CC races added last second. The schedule needs to get rid of tracks like Iowa and Richmond that are really too small for Indy Cars espically with this many on the track. Replace them with any two 1 mile tracks you want as long as they have two lines for passing. I wish Detroit could be off the schedule since it is always a parade but Penske has so much money in it he won't allow it. I would get rid of Edmonton and Sonoma and replace them with Cleveland (one airport track for a better one) and Road America.

I would also like to see a 20 race schedule with 10 ovals and 10 Road/Street courses and at least 5 or 6 of the CC tracks. Hopefully the reason alot of the IRL races are still on the sechedule for next year is that their contracts are not up and the IRL can phase them out and bring in new races as those contracts come up.

[gofastandwynn]

According to AR1:


St. Petersburg 1.78 Mile Street[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Long Beach 1.97 Mile Street[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Motegi, Japan Sat 1.549 Oval[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Queensland, Au 2.795 Mi Street[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Kansas City 1.5 M Oval[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Indianapolis, IN 2.5 mile Oval[/*:m:2mp961w5]
West Allis, WI 1.032 Mile Oval[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Ft Worth, TX (Sat. Nite)[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Newton, IA 0.875 Mile Oval[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Richmond, VA (Sat. Night)[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Watkins Glen 3.37 Mile RC[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Lexington, OH 2.258 Mile RC[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Toronto, CN 1.721 Mile Street[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Edmonton CN 1.96 Mi Airport[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Sparta, KY (Sat Nite) 1.5 Mile Oval[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Sonoma, CA RC[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Detroit, MI 2.096 Mi. RC[/*:m:2mp961w5]
Joliet, Ill. 1.5 Mile Oval[/*:m:2mp961w5]
TBA[/*:m:2mp961w5]I don't have a problem with it, really. It's a decent transitional schedule. I love that Australia is back in the spring where it belongs. I'd dump Iowa and Richmond for Road America and NH, and finish in Vegas myself. I'd also dump Sonoma for Fontana if I could.

I'd also change the rules to make new smaller front and rear wings to lower the downforce and equalize the competition, put the Handford device on the cars for Kentucky, Motegi, Texas and Chicago, to take the droning boredom out of the 1.5 mi tracks, and hire Panoz to build a variant of the DP-01 for 2010. As long as we're stuck with the CW's for '09 we may as well make the best of it though by cutting some of the downforce to shake up the grid.

Then, put Paul Tracy :vader: in a competitive car for '09, 010, and 011, buy AJ Almendinger's and Scott Speed's contracts from Red Bull and I'd be one happy camper.

Too bad I'm not Tony George.

I would like to see Cleveland added, and don't really see the need to drop Homestead. It is a warm weather date, and TG said he wants to lengthen the time frame of the schedule.

[Chamoo]

This is basically last years schedule.

I think MarkC is just throwing ***** at the wall, seeing what sticks.

[Spiderman]

According to AR1:


St. Petersburg 1.78 Mile Street[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Long Beach 1.97 Mile Street[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Motegi, Japan Sat 1.549 Oval[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Queensland, Au 2.795 Mi Street[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Kansas City 1.5 M Oval[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Indianapolis, IN 2.5 mile Oval[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
West Allis, WI 1.032 Mile Oval[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Ft Worth, TX (Sat. Nite)[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Newton, IA 0.875 Mile Oval[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Richmond, VA (Sat. Night)[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Watkins Glen 3.37 Mile RC[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Lexington, OH 2.258 Mile RC[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Toronto, CN 1.721 Mile Street[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Edmonton CN 1.96 Mi Airport[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Sparta, KY (Sat Nite) 1.5 Mile Oval[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Sonoma, CA RC[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Detroit, MI 2.096 Mi. RC[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
Joliet, Ill. 1.5 Mile Oval[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]
TBA[/*:m:3ud1xcu9]I don't have a problem with it, really. It's a decent transitional schedule. I love that Australia is back in the spring where it belongs. I'd dump Iowa and Richmond for Road America and NH, and finish in Vegas myself. I'd also dump Sonoma for Fontana if I could.

I'd also change the rules to make new smaller front and rear wings to lower the downforce and equalize the competition, put the Handford device on the cars for Kentucky, Motegi, Texas and Chicago, to take the droning boredom out of the 1.5 mi tracks, and hire Panoz to build a variant of the DP-01 for 2010. As long as we're stuck with the CW's for '09 we may as well make the best of it though by cutting some of the downforce to shake up the grid.

Then, put Paul Tracy :vader: in a competitive car for '09, 010, and 011, buy AJ Almendinger's and Scott Speed's contracts from Red Bull and I'd be one happy camper.

Too bad I'm not Tony George.

There is not much logic in your schedule.
With the Indianapolis 500 race on may 24 next year (that means Opening Day on May 2nd) and Long Beach on April 19th how will you get Motegi, Surfer's and Kansas in there?

[The instant classic]

what ever happen to the IRL racing at dayonta i know they did some test there once, why not race it?

[anthonyvop]

Kentucky, Virginia and Texas are part of the South. So with Florida, that makes 4.
8/Eight/Ocho


1. Kansas City 1.5 M Oval
2. Indianapolis, IN 2.5 mile Oval
3. West Allis, WI 1.032 Mile Oval
4. Ft Worth, TX (Sat. Nite)
5. Newton, IA 0.875 Mile Oval
6. Sparta, KY (Sat Nite) 1.5 Mile Oval
7. Detroit, MI 2.096 Mi. RC
8. Joliet, Ill. 1.5 Mile Oval

Sparta Kentucky is closer to Cinncinati OHIO than any major Souther City.
Dallas/Ft.Worth is more mid-west than south but I will give you that one. But it isn't the South either.

Still 7 in the Midwest. What a joke.

[turbo-engine]

what ever happen to the IRL racing at dayonta i know they did some test there once, why not race it?

ISC, bumpy, ISC, bumpy, ISC, bumpy.......... That's the reason why they don't race there, and never will. I would love to see Indycars on the oval though

[Rex Monaco]

But it isn't the South either.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States

"As defined by the United States Census Bureau,[3] the Southern region of the United States includes 16 states and the District of Columbia (with a total 2006 estimated population of 109,083,752.) Thirty-six percent of all U.S. residents lived in the South, the nation's most populous region. The Census Bureau defined three smaller units, or divisions:

The South Atlantic States: Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Delaware
The East South Central States: Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi and Tennessee
The West South Central States: Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Texas"

Edited to add:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Census_Regions_and_Divisions.PNG

[anthonyvop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States

"As defined by the United States Census Bureau,[3] the Southern region of the United States includes 16 states and the District of Columbia (with a total 2006 estimated population of 109,083,752.) Thirty-six percent of all U.S. residents lived in the South, the nation's most populous region. The Census Bureau defined three smaller units, or divisions:

The South Atlantic States: Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Delaware
The East South Central States: Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi and Tennessee
The West South Central States: Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Texas"

Edited to add:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Census_Regions_and_Divisions.PNG
So?

I don't care what Wikipedia or the US Census says.
I care what the sponsors say and Sparta Ky is Mid-West. It is accross the river from Ohio.

We can argue about Ft Worth being mid-west with no consensus
But there is no way Ft-Worth is Southern.

[The instant classic]

ISC, bumpy, ISC, bumpy, ISC, bumpy.......... That's the reason why they don't race there, and never will. I would love to see Indycars on the oval thoughyeah very true, wierd why they wolud test at daytona then, but i wolud love to see the IRL race some more superspeedways next year :up:

[Cart750hp]

I'd like to see Laguna Seca and Road America added on that schedule together with Cleveland (night).

But looking at that schedule, it's little early for a huge transition from pro-oval to more street and road courses. I'd like to see it but I don't believe it.

Nice to get the fans going or those extinct Champ Car fans. But too early for a switch. Would be nice, but...nope.

[Rex Monaco]

So?
We can argue about Ft Worth being mid-west with no consensus
But there is no way Ft-Worth is Southern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie

"As a definite geographic location within the United States, "Dixie" is usually defined as the 11 Southern states that seceded to form the Confederate States of America. They are (in order of secession): South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Tennessee. This definition is strongly correlated with history and, in the minds of many Southerners, remains the traditional and emotional South.

[indycool]

Well, 'spect we'll know for sure in a couple weeks. Throwing stuff out there is speculative until it's announced. Considering that the IRL, promoters, TV, dates available, weather on dates available, where sponsors want to go, where competitors want to go, where many fans want to go, it would seem that any speculations could put one ahead or behind at any time during this process.

[nigelred5]

So?

I don't care what Wikipedia or the US Census says.
I care what the sponsors say and Sparta Ky is Mid-West. It is accross the river from Ohio.

We can argue about Ft Worth being mid-west with no consensus
But there is no way Ft-Worth is Southern.


Most of Kentucky isn't the South and wasn't a confederate state, But Texas sure the hell is Wanna ask my uncle from Texas sittin next to me?

[harvick#1]

I'd like to see Motegi run the Road Course
The Milwaukee Mile may be shut down, so move it up to Elkhart Lake :D
Portland is a great road course and needs to come back

[gofastandwynn]

Most of Kentucky isn't the South and wasn't a confederate state, But Texas sure the hell is Wanna ask my uncle from Texas sittin next to me?

I always thought Texas was just...Texas, they weren't really apart of anything.

[jimispeed]

Cleveland, Portland, Road America, Mont Tremblant........

[indycool]

jimi, for 2009, those four are probably near the bottom of the list of choices, based on all the criteria I posted previously.

[Spiderman]

I'd like to see Motegi run the Road Course
The Milwaukee Mile may be shut down, so move it up to Elkhart Lake :D
Portland is a great road course and needs to come back
Hey, come on, if you want to have a road race in japan, go to Suzuka. Honda owns this track too, so it should be no problem...

[millencolin]

The gold coast indy at the beginning of the year is not ideal. The Formula One race is also on during the beginning of the year, and is basically the same target market. The october timeslot has become very strong within the Australian sporting calendar, just at the end of the football season and before the cricket fires up, it has the attention of the Australian sporting public, which can be used to explain the big numbers (as well as the party atmosphere)

The race is also a V8supercar round, and the Indy race has become a good post-bathurst street brawl. It will be hard to re-arrange it for an early year start because the v8's are on equal billing as the ICS.

I'm not too fased when it comes to the rest of the schedule as all i know is that it will be on at 3am in the morning :P:

[MAX_THRUST]

CART 750HP YES spot on,

Night race at cleveland, Road AMerica would be good and so would would Portland.

As for many roo many races in the MindWest, what does it matter if they are well supported?????

[Rex Monaco]

Most of Kentucky isn't the South and wasn't a confederate state, But Texas sure the hell is Wanna ask my uncle from Texas sittin next to me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason-Dixon_line

There is a map in this link that places Florida, Kentucky and Texas into the category of sometimes included as part of the South.

That said, Kentucky was a slave state until after the war. The Confederate States of America also claimed it as their territory, even though it never formally succeded.

But the real test is to tell a Kentuckian that he isn't part of the south. I did that once, and I won't do it again.

[bblocker68]

Very true. See what happens if you call him a Yankee :)

[garyshell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason-Dixon_line

There is a map in this link that places Florida, Kentucky and Texas into the category of sometimes included as part of the South.

That said, Kentucky was a slave state until after the war. The Confederate States of America also claimed it as their territory, even though it never formally succeded.

But the real test is to tell a Kentuckian that he isn't part of the south. I did that once, and I won't do it again.


I live on that boder and trust me, Kentucky is part of the south. Ask anyone who lives on either side of the Ohio river. I say this with no malice or prejudice. My mother was from Kentucky and my dad is from Ohio.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

I am talking from a marketing/Sponor perspective.
The race in Sparta Kentucky is not a "Southern" Race.

[champcar72]

Road America and Cleveland need to be on that schedule! Then its perfect. That would add 20 races. In 4-8 years i hope that it will be 30 races a year and its a real possibility if NASCAR starts to fall a bit and open wheel makes a comeback.

[garyshell]

I am talking from a marketing/Sponor perspective.
The race in Sparta Kentucky is not a "Southern" Race.


You might want to look at a map and note how close Sparta is to two major metorpolitan cities in KY. And further note how much marketing THEY do in said cities. And then ask folks in both Lousiville and Lexington about being southern or not. Just because YOU are in the deep south does not make KY any less southern.

Was St. Pete a "southern" race?

Gary

[chuck34]

Ok now I've heard just about everything!!! Texas and Kentucky aren't Southern?????? If that is the case just what the H-E-Double Hockey Sticks is????

Atlanta? Tried the oval, too much like all the others. Road Atlanta might be ok. But then again maybe there are too many carpetbaggers in Atlanta.

Birmingham? Barber Motorsports park would be awesome, didn't they test there last year? Oh wait that might be confused with the town in the UK so that ain't southern either.

What exactly would please you?

[anthonyvop]

You might want to look at a map and note how close Sparta is to two major metorpolitan cities in KY. And further note how much marketing THEY do in said cities. And then ask folks in both Lousiville and Lexington about being southern or not. Just because YOU are in the deep south does not make KY any less southern.

Was St. Pete a "southern" race?

Gary
Ok
I am talking Geographic Marketing.

Sparta Ky can be where guys from the south take their sisters out on their first dates for all I care.

Sparta TV stations:
WXIX - Cincinnati, OH (33) FOX
WCPO- Cincinnati, OH (9) ABC your IRL Network!
WLWT- Cincinnati, OH (5) NBC

Cincinnati is in the South now?

[garyshell]

Ok
I am talking Geographic Marketing.

Sparta Ky can be where guys from the south take their sisters out on their first dates for all I care.

Sparta TV stations:
WXIX - Cincinnati, OH (33) FOX
WCPO- Cincinnati, OH (9) ABC your IRL Network!
WLWT- Cincinnati, OH (5) NBC

Cincinnati is in the South now?


Ok, fine let's talk geography then. Cincinnati is about 45 miles from Sparta. Lousiville is about 60 miles and Lexington about 68 miles. So tell me about this so called "geographic marketing" that would exclude those two major metropolitan areas and only market to Cincinnati. If you can show me such a marketing plan than I would agree the KY race is not a southern race. But since I happen to know for a fact that the race IS marketed in both Lousiville and Lexington and I also know those are considered Southern cities. I think it would be a real stretch to claim that this is not indeed a southern race.

Gary

[indycool]

My gosh, anthony, Henderson, Ky., is across the river from Cincinnati, and it's where the Cincinnati airport is located, and even IT'S considered a southern city by most. You can tell by people's way of speech who lives north and south of the Ohio.

[gofastandwynn]

Night race at cleveland, Road AMerica would be good and so would would Portland.



I would like to see them go to Cleveland, thought I think a night race would be a unnecessary cost.

Now, I haven't been to RA since 2002 (I think), but IMO time has passed that facility by in the same way F1 passed Watkins Glen by. There is nothing there as far as spectator amenities goes, and look at all of the problems CC had with the owners/promoters in the past.

I do think that they need to expand to warmer weather locations if you want to lengthen the season.

[indycool]

A night race, added to the expense of a temporary course with the expense of lighting, is absolutely insane financially.

[nigelred5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason-Dixon_line

There is a map in this link that places Florida, Kentucky and Texas into the category of sometimes included as part of the South.

That said, Kentucky was a slave state until after the war. The Confederate States of America also claimed it as their territory, even though it never formally succeded.

But the real test is to tell a Kentuckian that he isn't part of the south. I did that once, and I won't do it again.


Yeah, I know the line Very well. I live 12 miles south and 19 miles west of it and know the locations of about 6-8 markers and two of the larger stones That are still in place within about a half hour of my house.

The "War of Northern Agression" ain't soon forgot in these parts, even if this isn't 'zactly Dixie ;)

[anthonyvop]

Ok, fine let's talk geography then.
Gary

Lets not!

I will say it again.
I am talking Marketing and demographics.
That rumored schedule only has one race in what could be considered the Southern US.

[Chamoo]

Road America and Cleveland need to be on that schedule! Then its perfect. That would add 20 races. In 4-8 years i hope that it will be 30 races a year and its a real possibility if NASCAR starts to fall a bit and open wheel makes a comeback.

Nascar's problem is that they are running 36 weekends of the year, plus one for the All-Star race, and another one for Daytona Speed Weeks. It's too much Nascar, and I don't want Indycar to turn into the same thing. I'm happy with AOWR running 18-22 races a year, maybe 25 tops. But whatever the schedule is, it needs to be spread out to gives teams and fans a break.

Road America and Cleveland need to be on the schedule. I'd rather see Cleveland on there then Mid-Ohio until they get multiple chassis and engines, otherwise there won't be any passing.

[call_me_andrew]

ISC, bumpy, ISC, bumpy, ISC, bumpy.......... That's the reason why they don't race there, and never will. I would love to see Indycars on the oval though

Actually the drivers remarked during testing that Daytona wasn't too bumpy. The bumps are only bad in the ovals turns but thats a moot point since the chicane keeps them from being up to speed in the turns.

That's not a bad calender, but I wonder what happened to that oval race in Mexico we heard so briefly about.

[garyshell]

My gosh, anthony, Henderson, Ky., is across the river from Cincinnati, and it's where the Cincinnati airport is located, and even IT'S considered a southern city by most. You can tell by people's way of speech who lives north and south of the Ohio.

Huh? Henderson Ky? That is much further south. You are thinking of Hebron, Ky, I believe.

But you are spot on with the speech identification. Although over the past few years and the build up of Nothern KY area, the audible indications are lessened a lot. But once you get past the I-275 beltway it reappears quickly.

Gary

[garyshell]

I would like to see them go to Cleveland, thought I think a night race would be a unnecessary cost.

Now, I haven't been to RA since 2002 (I think), but IMO time has passed that facility by in the same way F1 passed Watkins Glen by. There is nothing there as far as spectator amenities goes, and look at all of the problems CC had with the owners/promoters in the past.

I do think that they need to expand to warmer weather locations if you want to lengthen the season.


Cleveland can be VERY VERY hot. With no trees comes no shade add in hot concrete runways and lakefront humidity and it can be pretty nasty. Hence the one year experiment with a night race. It helped a lot but was mucho expensive!

I have not been to RA in years but understand the amenities are substantially better than they used to be.

Gary

[garyshell]

Ok, fine let's talk geography then. Cincinnati is about 45 miles from Sparta. Lousiville is about 60 miles and Lexington about 68 miles. So tell me about this so called "geographic marketing" that would exclude those two major metropolitan areas and only market to Cincinnati. If you can show me such a marketing plan than I would agree the KY race is not a southern race. But since I happen to know for a fact that the race IS marketed in both Lousiville and Lexington and I also know those are considered Southern cities. I think it would be a real stretch to claim that this is not indeed a southern race.

Gary


Lets not!

I will say it again.
I am talking Marketing and demographics.


And so was I. Again, I invite you to show me a marketing plan for the Kentucky Speedway that would not include two major metropolitan SOUTHERN cities that are both within 70 miles of the track.


That rumored schedule only has one race in what could be considered the Southern US.

So sayeth the marketing and demographics expert who doesn't consider Lexington and Louisville as Southern cities. (450,000 and 1,380,000 population respectively)


Gary

[Rex Monaco]

I am talking Marketing and demographics.

And this talk about "Marketing and Demographics" is why you placed Ft. Worth in the midwest? Do you really think it's close demographically and geographically to these other mid-western races?

[speeddurango]

Honestly I don't see how this schedule is in any sense a good schedule even this is a transitional period. I mean, it's basically this year's schedule with one addition of Toronto and a little bit of change of race date. I mean, I just don't get why they would leave out Cleveland, Mexico City and a potentially NH. Circuits like Road America might be a long shot but I was expecting more than this, I do hope this isn't really a genuine "leaked" schedule.

[anthonyvop]

And so was I. Again, I invite you to show me a marketing plan for the Kentucky Speedway that would not include two major metropolitan SOUTHERN cities that are both within 70 miles of the track.



So sayeth the marketing and demographics expert who doesn't consider Lexington and Louisville as Southern cities. (450,000 and 1,380,000 population respectively)


Gary

Find Sparta on the Map.
Draw a Circle 100 Miles in all directions around Sparta.
Tell Me again how it is a Southern race.

[indycool]

Oops, Gary, I stand corrected....Henderson is across from Evansville....I was thinking of Covington....don't know why I did that (I've even flown out of Ludlam, is it, the private airport in Cincinnati?).

anthony, a 100-mile circle around Sparta would include northern cities and southern cities. You'd get pretty close to Knoxville. You'd get pretty close to Indianapolis. And you would definitely, as Gary says, get Louisville and Lexington.

[Rex Monaco]

Find Sparta on the Map.
Draw a Circle 100 Miles in all directions around Sparta.
Tell Me again how it is a Southern race.

Draw a 100 mile circle around Ft. Worth and tell me again how it's a mid-west race.

[garyshell]

Oops, Gary, I stand corrected....Henderson is across from Evansville....I was thinking of Covington....don't know why I did that (I've even flown out of Ludlam, is it, the private airport in Cincinnati?).

anthony, a 100-mile circle around Sparta would include northern cities and southern cities. You'd get pretty close to Knoxville. You'd get pretty close to Indianapolis. And you would definitely, as Gary says, get Louisville and Lexington.


Lunken is the small airport in Cincinnati, public not private, actually owned by the city of Cincinnati. It is about a mile from my office.

Gary

[garyshell]

Find Sparta on the Map.
Draw a Circle 100 Miles in all directions around Sparta.
Tell Me again how it is a Southern race.


I did that already. And two of the three closest major metropolitan areas are as previously stated, Lexington and Lousiville. And in addition there is the State Capital Frankfort. I guess none of those are "southern" enough for a South Florida lad, huh? It may not be southern enough for you, but I'd be VERY careful if you propose such a preposterous statement to the residents of any of those three cities. Hell, even the folks in Cincinnati would consider it a southern race. It is in Kentucky afterall!

Gary

[anthonyvop]

I did that already. And two of the three closest major metropolitan areas are as previously stated, Lexington and Lousiville. And in addition there is the State Capital Frankfort. I guess none of those are "southern" enough for a South Florida lad, huh? It may not be southern enough for you, but I'd be VERY careful if you propose such a preposterous statement to the residents of any of those three cities. Hell, even the folks in Cincinnati would consider it a southern race. It is in Kentucky afterall!

Gary
Gary,

You either don't get it or just want to argue.
MARKETING!!!!
I will give you an example.

I am in Miami. Miami is the Southernmost metropolitan City in the Continental US. Geographically it is about as Southern as you can get.

If you market a major Racing Event to a Souther Audience in Miami you might as well pack up your belongings and quit.
NASCAR has a hard time selling out a 65,000 seat Track here.

While Sparta is in the South Geographically a large portion of it's market for an Indycar race is decidely Mid-Western.

You may not like the idea. You may disagree. But it is a MARKETING FACT.

[garyshell]

8 races in the Midwest and 1 in the south!

Yep. The brand marketers would love that schedule.


Gary,

You either don't get it or just want to argue.
MARKETING!!!!
I will give you an example.

I am in Miami. Miami is the Southernmost metropolitan City in the Continental US. Geographically it is about as Southern as you can get.

If you market a major Racing Event to a Souther Audience in Miami you might as well pack up your belongings and quit.
NASCAR has a hard time selling out a 65,000 seat Track here.

While Sparta is in the South Geographically a large portion of it's market for an Indycar race is decidely Mid-Western.

You may not like the idea. You may disagree. But it is a MARKETING FACT.


Ok let's look at the original message that started this off. Now tell me are these marketers looking for a "southern race" or a race that they can market to people who live in the south???? I think we both know the answer is the latter. These potential marketers of an ICS event could not give a rats ass about a "southern race" versus a "midwestern race". They DO care about the number of people surrounding a particular venue that might be in their demographic. In the case of Sparta, they will see a significant number of folks who live in the south that might attend. Likewise with Ft. Worth. They won't see this as a "southern race" or a "midwestern race" they will see it as a race to attract folks who live in the south.

You are the one who wants to argue this ridiculous notion of marketing a "southern race". The marketing FACT is, no one marketing a ICS race will ever market something as a "southern race" or a "midwestern race".

They will all put push pins on a map and see how many folks fall within a certain radius of that pin and market to them BY CITY, not by geographic region.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Ok let's look at the original message that started this off. Now tell me are these marketers looking for a "southern race" or a race that they can market to people who live in the south???? I think we both know the answer is the latter. These potential marketers of an ICS event could not give a rats ass about a "southern race" versus a "midwestern race". They DO care about the number of people surrounding a particular venue that might be in their demographic. In the case of Sparta, they will see a significant number of folks who live in the south that might attend. Likewise with Ft. Worth. They won't see this as a "southern race" or a "midwestern race" they will see it as a race to attract folks who live in the south.

You are the one who wants to argue this ridiculous notion of marketing a "southern race". The marketing FACT is, no one marketing a ICS race will ever market something as a "southern race" or a "midwestern race".

They will all put push pins on a map and see how many folks fall within a certain radius of that pin and market to them BY CITY, not by geographic region.

Gary

If you take the time to look at my original response you would see that all I was stating was that the IRL's possible schedule was too Mid-West-centric. If you are a National brand and want a good ROI by sponsoring a national series wouldn't you want to be in one that was available throughout various markets in equal footing?
That potential Schedule is great if your brand wants to target the heartland but what about a brand that wants to target other larger and more cosmopolitan markets?

[MDS]

I do hope this isn't really a genuine "leaked" schedule.

Don't worry its not a leaked schedule, just some guesswork and rumors.

We should know what the real one looks like in about a week's time

[indycool]

anthony, the NFL doesn't have a team in LA, so is that a disaster for the NFL? Nobody acts like it and they have a season every year.

There are people on this forum who want Road America. Is Sheboygan a major market? What major market is Watkins Glen in?

Atlanta is a major market. Atlanta is also a lousy sports town. What good does it do to go there and draw flies?

The Indianapolis 500, Chicago, Dallas-Fort Worth, San Francisco (Infineon), Milwaukee, Kansas City, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Detroit, Los Angeles (Long Beach), Miami and Richmond are pretty spread out examples of major markets. Iowa (Des Moines), Kentucky (Cincinnati, Louisville and Lexington), Edmonton (and Calgary), ain't small markets.

To all that goes into a schedule -- Dates, promoters, TV, weather at various times of the year, where the sponsors want to be, where the competitors want to race, where there are places suitable for racing and what else is going on at the time plus where each INDIVIDUAL sponsor and competitor want to be are never going to be 100 percent perfect for ANYONE.

[MDS]

Atlanta is a major market. Atlanta is also a lousy sports town. What good does it do to go there and draw flies?

The idea that Atlanta isn't a good sports town is just BS. I've lived here all my life, off and on, and we support teams and events, they just have to be good. This town supports winners. You can't just be the Hawks and play boring, sub .500 basketball and expect people to show up like they would in Oklahoma or Iowa where there is nothing else to do.

As for our events not drawing flies: The Le Petit Le Mans is an established success; Georgia Tech and UGA sell out every football game and Tech has a strong basketball following; The Atlanta Thrashers have higher than average attendance, except for last year; Before the face of the Falcons went to jail they were sold out for every home game; the Braves don't have attendance problems; even the NASCAR races draw more fans than 95 percent on of the ovals on the IRL schedule.

I know Atlanta would turn out for the right event if packaged well and in a central location. A street race around Centennial Park area would succeed if held at the right time of year, probably in early April or September, and marketed in the right way.

[indycool]

Every try by Indy cars at Atlanta, from USAC in the '60s to CART to IRL has been a colossal failure.

The Braves made the playoffs many straight years and couldn't sell out a playoff game.

The Falcons, with good teams, couldn't sell out a playoff game.

There're two race tracks in Atlanta -- granted, one is near Jonesville and one near Braselton -- and you're suggesting a street race is the answer there. Baloney. The Petit is the only new racing event to last there in 40-50 years and it doesn't draw NASCAR numbers.

[MDS]

Every try by Indy cars at Atlanta, from USAC in the '60s to CART to IRL has been a colossal failure.

Hockey failed in Atlanta in the in 1970s, so I guess that means professional Hockey could never work in Atlanta.

I love people who don't live here telling us what Atlanta isn't based on what happened 30 to 40 years ago. In the 1960s Atlanta did not have an affluent metro area with 3 million people, I think it was pretty close to the size of say Birmingham today. Basing a decision on data that is nearly 50 years old is just moronic.


The Braves made the playoffs many straight years and couldn't sell out a playoff game.

Maybe they didn't sell out every game, but they sold out most of them. I'm sorry we're not St. Louis where we actually have 10 or 20 forms of entertainment to choose from on a Wednesday night.



The Falcons, with good teams, couldn't sell out a playoff game.

Uh, keep trying. In 2004 the Divisional playoff game sold out in 11 minutes, and that was the last time Atlanta hosted a playoff game.


The Petit is the only new racing event to last there in 40-50 years and it doesn't draw NASCAR numbers.

Number's and demographics are two entirely different thing. The Petit has great demographics among males with disposable income, much better numbers than average NASCAR or IRL races in the South, which gives advertisers a better value for their money.


There're two race tracks in Atlanta -- granted, one is near Jonesville and one near Braselton -- and you're suggesting a street race is the answer there. Baloney.

Uh, Jonesville is a flyspeck of a town near the Alabama border. You probably meant Jonesburo, which btw isn't even in the same county as AMS. Clearly you're an expert on Atlanta and totally qualified to make decisions about what the city can an cannot support.

[-Helix-]

Hockey failed in Atlanta in the in 1970s

Actually the Flames were pretty successful in Atlanta. Unfortunately they got bought by someone from Calgary and got moved.

[indycool]

MDS:
1. USAC in the '60s is 50 years old. CART in the '80s is not. IRL in the '90s is not.
2. PLAYOFF games, but 10-20 forms of entertainment are more important there.
3. Okay, you got me.
4. Difference between a niche and the masses.
5. Yes, I meant Jonesboro. Without looking it up on the map, you go southeast out of the airport a few miles and it's on the right side of the road.

[MDS]

2. PLAYOFF games, but 10-20 forms of entertainment are more important there.

The key to OWR's success in Atlanta is to tie itself to a number forms of entertainment. If you offer racing on city streets with free live entertainment near bars and restaurants, allow for massive corporate tie-ins with exclusive VIP areas for the rich people to be seen at, work in the hip hop community and you will succeed in Atlanta, in the spring or fall.

Take the road show to AMS and you'll draw maybe 10,000 if the wether is good. Go to Road Atlanta and you'll be holding a funeral four days later.

But then again, clearly you've flown into Atlanta a couple of times and clearly know the city better than I do. I've only lived here off my entire life, how could I possibly know my city better than an occassional tourist.

*I realize this is off topic, but I'm going to allow some know-it-all tourist to define my hometown.

[indycool]

If you think that would be successful, why don't you put up the money and do it?

No, I haven't lived in Atlanta. I've only come there for events. My impression of it as a lousy sports town has to do with sports only. There are many things I like about the city itself.

[SarahFan]

the real scheduling question i have is.....and yes i'm posing it directly t you IC....but anyone feel free to chime in


How will/is TG going to make sure that the ICS doesn't fall victim to the same scheduleing problems as CART/CC and become a predomantly street coarse series...

now the easy answer is he just wont... well lets be honest....theres two factors at play here

1. the current ICS is closer to the old CART than 'the vision'

2. when an oval becomes no longer viable...homestead for example.... city goverments semm ready willing and able to pony up cash to get a race....

so how is TG and the IRL going to keep the IRL from becomeing 15 rc/sc v 5 ovals as the schedule progresses over the next 2 to 5 years

[indycool]

Well, Ken, time will tell, but I'll try:

1. TG is committed to ovalcentricity and the draws at most of the ovals have been adequate and/or growing and/or stable. No, Homestead ain't. The others are. And other ovals are waiting in the wings per SMI's statements. So, I don't believe that's going to come anytime soon.

2. After the Denvers and San Joses and Ansans and Zhuhais and Vegases and the cancellation at Phoenix, I doubt that many cities are jumping at the chance to have a street race. I doubt that many promoters are around that will take the chance on a street race without the right deal and sponsors and that's a pretty hard sell.

3. Pook, who mushroomed street racing in his career at Dover and CART, ain't a factor. KK, who tub-thumped it further, doesn't now. And I disagree that cities are clamaoring for races.

4. Just IMO, but TG seems to have a preference for real race tracks as opposed to street races.

5. It is slowly and grudgingly coming out that these street races don't draw what people were told they were drawing and tracks were only building 20-25,000 seats max and a number of them had few GA viewing areas. Well, if you're in Iowa and fill 25,000 permanent seats without the expense of track construction, that isn't any different than what was being drawn at street races with the added expenses involved.

[nigelred5]

Places like Road America and Watkins Glen have to rely on The great track, History and being a regional attraction. They have to make the event a destination type thing, rather than rely on the ADD type crowds at the street events that rely on bars, posh hotels and convenience. They just are totally different type events. When I attended the F1 races at the Glen, We had a small trailer and camped of course. They always had a concert, movies on Friday and saturday night and the occasional bus burning to keep people occupied in addition to the track action. It's getting harder and harder to find a good crowd of people even comfortable enough BEING in the outdoors, let alone having the equipment to survivie for three days. Sad, Sad change in our society IMHO. Now Camping means a 35 foot trailer with pop outs and king sized beds, generators, satellite TV and a galley rivalling the average person's home kitchens, and an 8 mile per gallon tow vehicle. That's a hard sell against even a $300 a night hotel room ten minutes away from a track.

[Toymaker]

Where the hell is Cleveland? We put three times the number of butts in the seats as Mid-Ohio (without Ho*da) giving away 15-20,000 tickets) and it was always the #1 or 2 TV audience every year. What is the thinking behind this??

[nigelred5]

The idea that Atlanta isn't a good sports town is just BS. I've lived here all my life, off and on, and we support teams and events, they just have to be good. This town supports winners. You can't just be the Hawks and play boring, sub .500 basketball and expect people to show up like they would in Oklahoma or Iowa where there is nothing else to do.

As for our events not drawing flies: The Le Petit Le Mans is an established success; Georgia Tech and UGA sell out every football game and Tech has a strong basketball following; The Atlanta Thrashers have higher than average attendance, except for last year; Before the face of the Falcons went to jail they were sold out for every home game; the Braves don't have attendance problems; even the NASCAR races draw more fans than 95 percent on of the ovals on the IRL schedule.

I know Atlanta would turn out for the right event if packaged well and in a central location. A street race around Centennial Park area would succeed if held at the right time of year, probably in early April or September, and marketed in the right way.


from today's list of "Teams nobody cares about" from the Comcast homepage

10. Atlanta Thrashers

The Thrashers have the 22nd worst attendance in the NHL, a little over 15,000 per game. Actually, that's not too bad for Atlanta. (AP Photo/John Amis)

[indycool]

That's the trouble, Toymaker. In reality, you did NOT put three times the number of butts in the seats as Mid-Ohio. That's why, among all the different promoters that Cleveland has had, that IMG just gave the thing back to CART and said, "run it yourself." It lost $$$$.

[SarahFan]

Well, Ken, time will tell, but I'll try:

1. TG is committed to ovalcentricity and the draws at most of the ovals have been adequate and/or growing and/or stable. No, Homestead ain't. The others are. And other ovals are waiting in the wings per SMI's statements. So, I don't believe that's going to come anytime soon.

2. After the Denvers and San Joses and Ansans and Zhuhais and Vegases and the cancellation at Phoenix, I doubt that many cities are jumping at the chance to have a street race. I doubt that many promoters are around that will take the chance on a street race without the right deal and sponsors and that's a pretty hard sell.

3. Pook, who mushroomed street racing in his career at Dover and CART, ain't a factor. KK, who tub-thumped it further, doesn't now. And I disagree that cities are clamaoring for races.

4. Just IMO, but TG seems to have a preference for real race tracks as opposed to street races.

5. It is slowly and grudgingly coming out that these street races don't draw what people were told they were drawing and tracks were only building 20-25,000 seats max and a number of them had few GA viewing areas. Well, if you're in Iowa and fill 25,000 permanent seats without the expense of track construction, that isn't any different than what was being drawn at street races with the added expenses involved.


http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/OtherSports/2008/07/27/6276731-sun.html

[indycool]

Still speculation....is he ahead or behind? We don't know (I certainly don't).

[icehammer97]

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/OtherSports/2008/07/27/6276731-sun.html

Anyone else notice the part at the end about Surfers still being a non points race again next year. Does that make any since to anyone??

[Spiderman]

Anyone else notice the part at the end about Surfers still being a non points race again next year. Does that make any since to anyone??

That point was about this year.

[speeddurango]

San Jose, Denver and Vegas were not good, Zhuhai Ansan's not a street course, and Phoenix problem remained an unknown. Long Beach, Surfers, Detroit, Sete Pete's were not bad. See, streets are not overly bad as described a couple of post above mine, it's just another case of things with a couple of good ones, and a couple of bad ones.

[fugariracing]

The schedule is likely to be released tomorrow, given the hints from recent articles, Nashville saying they will not continue to host a race, and the note at the end of today's Up to Speed feature on indycar.com.

Expect the expected.

[indycool]

Press teleconference announced for tomorrow with Barnhart and Angstadt.

[BenRoethig]

Where the hell is Cleveland? We put three times the number of butts in the seats as Mid-Ohio (without Ho*da) giving away 15-20,000 tickets) and it was always the #1 or 2 TV audience every year. What is the thinking behind this??

Becoming condos most likely.

[BenRoethig]

According to AR1:


St. Petersburg 1.78 Mile Street[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Long Beach 1.97 Mile Street[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Motegi, Japan Sat 1.549 Oval[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Queensland, Au 2.795 Mi Street[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Kansas City 1.5 M Oval[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Indianapolis, IN 2.5 mile Oval[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
West Allis, WI 1.032 Mile Oval[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Ft Worth, TX (Sat. Nite)[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Newton, IA 0.875 Mile Oval[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Richmond, VA (Sat. Night)[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Watkins Glen 3.37 Mile RC[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Lexington, OH 2.258 Mile RC[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Toronto, CN 1.721 Mile Street[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Edmonton CN 1.96 Mi Airport[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Sparta, KY (Sat Nite) 1.5 Mile Oval[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Sonoma, CA RC[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Detroit, MI 2.096 Mi. RC[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
Joliet, Ill. 1.5 Mile Oval[/*:m:1mqgx03e]
TBA[/*:m:1mqgx03e]I.

I really don't like the balance of that schedule nor the fact it doesn't have a fall portion. Similar tracks come in bunches with the beginning and end of the season road/street centric with a large contingent of ovals in the middle. The opening being at St. Pete is also very low key. Miami may not be able to draw fans (for anything), but a season opening night race is a great idea.

[-Helix-]

Cleveland still has a chance to get on the schedule in 2010. Though that will probably be their final chance before the bulldozers come.

Rumors have it that Homestead will be the season ending race btw.

[BenRoethig]

Cleveland still has a chance to get on the schedule in 2010. Though that will probably be their final chance before the bulldozers come.

Rumors have it that Homestead will be the season ending race btw.

That's why they're walking away now. If Burke isn't going to be there in a couple of years, it really doesn't make sense to give it a date over other tracks.

[ezhop7]

I know Pikes Peak will not make the 2009 schedule but since I only live 7 miles from the track and the only thing that ICS took away was the one infield scoring pilon other than that everything else is their including the kellygreen bleachers. Maybe this track could make the 2011 or 12 schedule. I would think the IRL would like to have venue in the Rocky Mtn states.

[indycool]

For Cleveland, AGAIN, to have a race, there must be a promoter who desires several million dollars to risk organizing one. Promoters in the past there have come, lost and gone. How hard is that to understand?

[Osiris333]

I know Pikes Peak will not make the 2009 schedule but since I only live 7 miles from the track and the only thing that ICS took away was the one infield scoring pilon other than that everything else is their including the kellygreen bleachers. Maybe this track could make the 2011 or 12 schedule. I would think the IRL would like to have venue in the Rocky Mtn states.

Dude Pikes Peak is in the middle of nowhere. Indycar needs to have a more urban focus, become the hot racing series of the younger crowd. Like UFC for racing or something.

[SarahFan]

the real scheduling question i have is.....and yes i'm posing it directly t you IC....but anyone feel free to chime in


How will/is TG going to make sure that the ICS doesn't fall victim to the same scheduleing problems as CART/CC and become a predomantly street coarse series...

now the easy answer is he just wont... well lets be honest....theres two factors at play here

1. the current ICS is closer to the old CART than 'the vision'

2. when an oval becomes no longer viable...homestead for example.... city goverments semm ready willing and able to pony up cash to get a race....

so how is TG and the IRL going to keep the IRL from becomeing 15 rc/sc v 5 ovals as the schedule progresses over the next 2 to 5 years

can I reprepose this question today.....IC

[chuck34]

Cleveland, Cleveland, Cleveland, that's all anyone wants to talk about. Don't get me wrong I liked that track as much or more than a lot of the other ones. But there are two things standing in it's way of being back on the schedule.

#1 is the probability of Burke not being there much longer. Why go there just to have your track/airport torn down in a year or two.

#2 is the fact that no one goes there. Did you see the crowd at Mid-Ohio? I have no idea what the numbers were, but it sure looks to be quite a bit more than Cleveland in the last few years.

So why give up a venue that is well attended for one that isn't, and probably won't be around much longer

[indycool]

Ken,

1. I agree. There are more road courses on the schedule.

2. I disagree. After the disasters in San Jose and Las Vegas, I do not believe that cities are just chomping at the bit to get races. I do not believe there are many promoters out there who will chance it, either. Because of increased expenses and fewer seats, those races make less than a permanent facility can make.

I won't be too surprised at the schedule when it's announced today. All the forum talk about Cleveland, Houston, Portland, Road America and other previous CC sites are peeing into the wind. Those were all financial losers and aren't high up on the list. I agree that Homestead should be the next oval to go, but with SMI and ISC owning bunches of ovals out there, the deals for dates could be made without us even understanding why.

[SarahFan]

Ken,

1. I agree. There are more road courses on the schedule.

2. I disagree. After the disasters in San Jose and Las Vegas, I do not believe that cities are just chomping at the bit to get races. I do not believe there are many promoters out there who will chance it, either. Because of increased expenses and fewer seats, those races make less than a permanent facility can make.

I won't be too surprised at the schedule when it's announced today. All the forum talk about Cleveland, Houston, Portland, Road America and other previous CC sites are peeing into the wind. Those were all financial losers and aren't high up on the list. I agree that Homestead should be the next oval to go, but with SMI and ISC owning bunches of ovals out there, the deals for dates could be made without us even understanding why.

you continue to ignore TG part in this...

exactly why are you confident he will make right/solid decisions

sounds like NH and Vegas wanted races....

?

[ChampUSfan]

I think it's a great choice from TG by adding only two races from CC (Long Beach and Toronto) cause all the venue they have actually are great. Just a bit sad not to see Nashville back in '09

[SarahFan]

Ken,

1. I agree. There are more road courses on the schedule.

2. I disagree. After the disasters in San Jose and Las Vegas, I do not believe that cities are just chomping at the bit to get races. I do not believe there are many promoters out there who will chance it, either. Because of increased expenses and fewer seats, those races make less than a permanent facility can make.

I won't be too surprised at the schedule when it's announced today. All the forum talk about Cleveland, Houston, Portland, Road America and other previous CC sites are peeing into the wind. Those were all financial losers and aren't high up on the list. I agree that Homestead should be the next oval to go, but with SMI and ISC owning bunches of ovals out there, the deals for dates could be made without us even understanding why.


and look at the lead-in to INDY..

2 street coarses and Kansas..

I have no problem with Kansas....but if it's on the duece (or worse!)

have I not been preaching the pre-indy lead-in for years?

how does Tony expect to build any momentum?.....

preserving and protecting the I500!?

[indycool]

Ken, what's to ignore or not ignore about TG?

My confidence in TG or lack of same wasn't involved in your question of me. As far as solid decisions, he will probably make some you agree with and I don't and some I will agree with and you don't.

As for Vegas and Loudon, we don't know how things might be working. Time has passed by long enough to try Loudon again, certainly, but maybe the schedule didn't work out for either the IRL or Loudon this time. Vegas? When CC had truck racing fans walk out en masse for their races at LVMS and its promoter poured millions down the drain for a street race there, I'd guess the timing might not be quite right for either the promoter or the IRL....the waters are poisoned there right now.

[indycool]

Ken,

Answering your second post, teams throughout the past 30-40 years have not wanted to run too much before Indy because they tear up equipment and start Indy "behind" fixing cars. That caught up with Galles a few years ago when he destroyed three of his cars at Atlanta two weeks before the track opened at Indy and never caught up to be competitive in May.

That's the double-edged sword that comes with races before Indy. As to TV, I have no idea how that's going to shake out.

[SarahFan]

Ken, what's to ignore or not ignore about TG?

.


for the last 8 years ypu and I have been posting together you have hammered everything CC related...from TV to venues to teams drivers and cars....from pook to forsythe to gentilozzi

and you now that we have one series headed by Tony George ask "what's to ignore or not ignore'?

too that I say: Bad Form! :(

[indycool]

Bad form? Many people in the paddock and on the forums wanted one series. Now they have one. No, they're not going to please everybody, with any schedule they put together or anything else. Some will hate TG forever just on their built-up 'tudes. Yes, we sparred a lot over CART and CC. But you were posting one thing and trying to drag me into a TG discussion with another. That could be considered "bad form."

[SarahFan]

Bad form? Many people in the paddock and on the forums wanted one series. Now they have one. No, they're not going to please everybody, with any schedule they put together or anything else. Some will hate TG forever just on their built-up 'tudes. Yes, we sparred a lot over CART and CC. But you were posting one thing and trying to drag me into a TG discussion with another. That could be considered "bad form."

yep bad form...

were down to 1 series...with Tg as the leader..

and after all these years you still give him a pass......your not even willing to discuss his part in this sport we love so much......past or present


at some point your going to have to acknowledge his presence

[SarahFan]

The Emperor’s New Suit

by

Hans Christian Andersen

(1837)

ANY, many years ago lived an emperor, who thought so much of new clothes that he spent all his money in order to obtain them; his only ambition was to be always well dressed. He did not care for his soldiers, and the theatre did not amuse him; the only thing, in fact, he thought anything of was to drive out and show a new suit of clothes. He had a coat for every hour of the day; and as one would say of a king “He is in his cabinet,” so one could say of him, “The emperor is in his dressing-room.”
The great city where he resided was very gay; every day many strangers from all parts of the globe arrived. One day two swindlers came to this city; they made people believe that they were weavers, and declared they could manufacture the finest cloth to be imagined. Their colours and patterns, they said, were not only exceptionally beautiful, but the clothes made of their material possessed the wonderful quality of being invisible to any man who was unfit for his office or unpardonably stupid.
“That must be wonderful cloth,” thought the emperor. “If I were to be dressed in a suit made of this cloth I should be able to find out which men in my empire were unfit for their places, and I could distinguish the clever from the stupid. I must have this cloth woven for me without delay.” And he gave a large sum of money to the swindlers, in advance, that they should set to work without any loss of time. They set up two looms, and pretended to be very hard at work, but they did nothing whatever on the looms. They asked for the finest silk and the most precious gold-cloth; all they got they did away with, and worked at the empty looms till late at night.
“I should very much like to know how they are getting on with the cloth,” thought the emperor. But he felt rather uneasy when he remembered that he who was not fit for his office could not see it. Personally, he was of opinion that he had nothing to fear, yet he thought it advisable to send somebody else first to see how matters stood. Everybody in the town knew what a remarkable quality the stuff possessed, and all were anxious to see how bad or stupid their neighbours were.
“I shall send my honest old minister to the weavers,” thought the emperor. “He can judge best how the stuff looks, for he is intelligent, and nobody understands his office better than he.”
The good old minister went into the room where the swindlers sat before the empty looms. “Heaven preserve us!” he thought, and opened his eyes wide, “I cannot see anything at all,” but he did not say so. Both swindlers requested him to come near, and asked him if he did not admire the exquisite pattern and the beautiful colours, pointing to the empty looms. The poor old minister tried his very best, but he could see nothing, for there was nothing to be seen. “Oh dear,” he thought, “can I be so stupid? I should never have thought so, and nobody must know it! Is it possible that I am not fit for my office? No, no, I cannot say that I was unable to see the cloth.”
“Now, have you got nothing to say?” said one of the swindlers, while he pretended to be busily weaving.
“Oh, it is very pretty, exceedingly beautiful,” replied the old minister looking through his glasses. “What a beautiful pattern, what brilliant colours! I shall tell the emperor that I like the cloth very much.”
“We are pleased to hear that,” said the two weavers, and described to him the colours and explained the curious pattern. The old minister listened attentively, that he might relate to the emperor what they said; and so he did.
Now the swindlers asked for more money, silk and gold-cloth, which they required for weaving. They kept everything for themselves, and not a thread came near the loom, but they continued, as hitherto, to work at the empty looms.
Soon afterwards the emperor sent another honest courtier to the weavers to see how they were getting on, and if the cloth was nearly finished. Like the old minister, he looked and looked but could see nothing, as there was nothing to be seen.
“Is it not a beautiful piece of cloth?” asked the two swindlers, showing and explaining the magnificent pattern, which, however, did not exist.
“I am not stupid,” said the man. “It is therefore my good appointment for which I am not fit. It is very strange, but I must not let any one know it;” and he praised the cloth, which he did not see, and expressed his joy at the beautiful colours and the fine pattern. “It is very excellent,” he said to the emperor.
Everybody in the whole town talked about the precious cloth. At last the emperor wished to see it himself, while it was still on the loom. With a number of courtiers, including the two who had already been there, he went to the two clever swindlers, who now worked as hard as they could, but without using any thread.
“Is it not magnificent?” said the two old statesmen who had been there before. “Your Majesty must admire the colours and the pattern.” And then they pointed to the empty looms, for they imagined the others could see the cloth.
“What is this?” thought the emperor, “I do not see anything at all. That is terrible! Am I stupid? Am I unfit to be emperor? That would indeed be the most dreadful thing that could happen to me.”
“Really,” he said, turning to the weavers, “your cloth has our most gracious approval;” and nodding contentedly he looked at the empty loom, for he did not like to say that he saw nothing. All his attendants, who were with him, looked and looked, and although they could not see anything more than the others, they said, like the emperor, “It is very beautiful.” And all advised him to wear the new magnificent clothes at a great procession which was soon to take place. “It is magnificent, beautiful, excellent,” one heard them say; everybody seemed to be delighted, and the emperor appointed the two swindlers “Imperial Court weavers.”
The whole night previous to the day on which the procession was to take place, the swindlers pretended to work, and burned more than sixteen candles. People should see that they were busy to finish the emperor’s new suit. They pretended to take the cloth from the loom, and worked about in the air with big scissors, and sewed with needles without thread, and said at last: “The emperor’s new suit is ready now.”
The emperor and all his barons then came to the hall; the swindlers held their arms up as if they held something in their hands and said: “These are the trousers!” “This is the coat!” and “Here is the cloak!” and so on. “They are all as light as a cobweb, and one must feel as if one had nothing at all upon the body; but that is just the beauty of them.”
“Indeed!” said all the courtiers; but they could not see anything, for there was nothing to be seen.
“Does it please your Majesty now to graciously undress,” said the swindlers, “that we may assist your Majesty in putting on the new suit before the large looking-glass?”
The emperor undressed, and the swindlers pretended to put the new suit upon him, one piece after another; and the emperor looked at himself in the glass from every side.
“How well they look! How well they fit!” said all. “What a beautiful pattern! What fine colours! That is a magnificent suit of clothes!”
The master of the ceremonies announced that the bearers of the canopy, which was to be carried in the procession, were ready.
“I am ready,” said the emperor. “Does not my suit fit me marvellously?” Then he turned once more to the looking-glass, that people should think he admired his garments.
The chamberlains, who were to carry the train, stretched their hands to the ground as if they lifted up a train, and pretended to hold something in their hands; they did not like people to know that they could not see anything.
The emperor marched in the procession under the beautiful canopy, and all who saw him in the street and out of the windows exclaimed: “Indeed, the emperor’s new suit is incomparable! What a long train he has! How well it fits him!” Nobody wished to let others know he saw nothing, for then he would have been unfit for his office or too stupid. Never emperor’s clothes were more admired.
“But he has nothing on at all,” said a little child at last. “Good heavens! listen to the voice of an innocent child,” said the father, and one whispered to the other what the child had said. “But he has nothing on at all,” cried at last the whole people. That made a deep impression upon the emperor, for it seemed to him that they were right; but he thought to himself, “Now I must bear up to the end.” And the chamberlains walked with still greater dignity, as if they carried the train which did not exist.

[indycool]

I "give him a pass?" I'm sure he's not going to please either you or me or both of us or neither of us with every single decision that gets made by the IRL.

It seems obvious you don't have confidence in his leadership. Fine. Time will tell. All I know is, if I want to watch Indy cars, I hafta watch the IRL.

[SarahFan]

It seems obvious you don't have confidence in his leadership. .


you do.....and had no trouble telling us all about pook and KK..


so tell me (us) why we should have confidence in TG's leadership...spicifically his ability to maintain a healthy mix of Venues on the schedule...

clearly he strayed from the original Vision...you can admit that can't you?

Edmonton, Toronto....Australia...midohio Belle isle....yet No Pheonix or MIS....and Vegas wanted to help pay for a season ending race THIS YEAR...

[indycool]

No, I had no trouble talking about Pook, KK or Gentilozzi. It was very easy to talk about them.

First of all, TG NEVER said there wouldn't be road courses on the IRL schedule. He said at the beginning that if those came, it would be in the distant future. It was.

"Healthy mix of road courses and ovals?" "Healthy" to some is not going to be healthy to others, so guess we like it, deal with it, hate it or go fishin'.

Phoenix and Michigan are very traditional tracks for Indy car racing. Phoenix and Michigan are owned by ISC, which has scheduled NASCAR races at both spring and fall and any date the IRL proposed would be shot down as too close to the NASCAR dates. It doesn't appear that the IRL and ISC have been able to strike a bargain for those two facilities.

Vegas? Maybe down the road. But after two CC track rentals in which the fans walked out after a truck race and the disaster downtown last year, it's a bit too close in time to expect anything close to what was there to be successful out there.

[downtowndeco]

you do.....and had no trouble telling us all about pook and KK..


And he was right most of the time. He said that the business model that CCWS was using was not self sustainable, he was correct. He said that the "inflated attendance shell game" would play itself out soon enough and cities/promoters would start to bail (they did). He said the series that held Indy would be the last one standing, he was right. I could give you another 15 examples and you know it.

Almost everything that those of us who didn't belong to CW told you three years ago was going to happen, did in fact, come true. Perhaps IC's words now should carry some weight. If he's not ragging on every little detail about how the IRL is being run it's probably because he doesn't feel he needs to. The basic plan is solid.

Hope you don't mind me speaking for you IC. : ).

[SarahFan]

And he was right most of the time. He said that the business model that CCWS was using was not self sustainable, he was correct. He said that the "inflated attendance shell game" would play itself out soon enough and cities/promoters would start to bail (they did). He said the series that held Indy would be the last one standing, he was right. I could give you another 15 examples and you know it.

Almost everything that those of us who didn't belong to CW told you three years ago was going to happen, did in fact, come true. Perhaps IC's words now should carry some weight. If he's not ragging on every little detail about how the IRL is being run it's probably because he doesn't feel he needs to. The basic plan is solid.

Hope you don't mind me speaking for you IC. : ).


problem is the IRL is facing the same problems and headed down the same road...

no Title sponsor..

Venue and scheduling problems

TV problems

spec series...

Mego teams and have nots

ride buyers

etc etc

[downtowndeco]

problem is the IRL is facing the same problems and headed down the same road...

no Title sponsor..

Venue and scheduling problems

TV problems

spec series...

Mego teams and have nots

ride buyers

etc etc

Yup, still looking for a title sponsor. Even NASCAR is feeling the pinch.

Schedule problems? Not in my eyes. A tight schedule or a nice variety of tracks.

TV problems? We'll see how that plays out.

Spec series? Not a problem in my opinion.

Big teams small teams? That's true from Formula Ford all the way up to F1.

Ride buyers? See last answer.

[SarahFan]

"They were not interested in New Hampshire and only wanted to run the club-racing road course at Las Vegas instead of one of the most outstanding oval tracks in the country. We're weren't prepared to accept that," Gossage said.



hmmm

[SarahFan]

Yup, still looking for a title sponsor. Even NASCAR is feeling the pinch.

Schedule problems? Not in my eyes. A tight schedule or a nice variety of tracks.

TV problems? We'll see how that plays out.

Spec series? Not a problem in my opinion.

Big teams small teams? That's true from Formula Ford all the way up to F1.

Ride buyers? See last answer.


it's not Nascar.....it's anchored by the holy grail of all auto racing

scheduling problems....se my last post and the fact it's no longer what it was suppossed to be 'oval centric'

spec.....your in the minority....by a long shot

agreed.....but that goes against the very foundation of the IRL

agreed....but the ride buyers aren't young american short trackers....again ...remember the original premise

[indycool]

Ken,

Yep, no title sponsor. Yet. How long has the series been combined? Since February. When are budgets set? The previous August.

Venue and scheduling problems? EVERY series has venue and scheduling situations, not necessarily problems, when you combine what the track needs, what the sanctioning body needs, what TV needs, what the teams need logistically, etc. The IRL announced a full schedule of 18 races. Period. No one will ever know how much motion it took to get there.

What TV problems? One story in the Sports Business Journal? Is the SBJ ahead or behind? Will they be resolved? My guess is, they will be.

Spec series? They just had a manufacturers meeting for the future. I think they're going about this very correctly. If they changed specs immediately, that would mean ex-CC teams would have had to buy new equipment three years in a row. The IRL is keeping as it is for now so its teams stay afloat. They didn't just jam a DP-01 or a COT down the throats of the teams and obsolete, in the COT's case, 700 stock cars.

Big teams/small teams? Had a lot of different winners this year and had some good runs by smaller teams to good finishes. And, as dd said, name a series that DOESN'T have big teams and small teams.

Ride buyers? Did you expect that to instantly stop?

And the Vegas road course? I heard it entered the discussions, but was quickly dismissed. Eddie's right.

This ain't a microwave.

[The instant classic]

i heard once coke was going to be the title sponsor, i guess not now, i havent heard anything on that now adays,

[SarahFan]

Ken,

Yet. How long has the series been combined? .

so everything gets reset as of Feb 2008?

[BenRoethig]

problem is the IRL is facing the same problems and headed down the same road...

They have full fields due to no competition and they're not trying to push euro-style formula down the throats of a continent that isn't all that interesting in that brand of racing, so I don't think they're facing the same kinds of problems that Champ Car did.


no Title sponsor.

After over a decade of tearing everything apart for the sake of who sets of egos, they have something to prove to a sponsor. Money is also tight.


Venue and scheduling problems.

And you expect a magic wand to be waved and the schedule turn out exactly how you want it? A schedule is a complex thing that involves a lot of accountants and lawyers. You also have the added complication that the France family now owns the Penske tracks.


TV problems.

Networks are a busy, not a public service. Make ESPN more money and they're going to give you a better deal.


spec series...

For now. If you can convince Cosworth and Panoz to update their IRL stuff to the latest rules, be my guest. If not, we're stuck for a couple of years with what we have until the new package which will not be spec.


Mego teams and have nots
And in what part of AOWR history has there not been? Penske, Ganassi, Green, and Newman-Haas have been dominating for many years. Spec or no spec, the teams with the best people will rise to the top.


ride buyers

Happen everywhere with the smaller. less financially secure teams.

[BenRoethig]

so everything gets reset as of Feb 2008?

In a way, yes. You can't snap your fingers and make everything perfect. A lot of work has to be done, and believe it or not, that takes time.

[Chris R]

Those who were/are strong supporters of either side need to keep in mind that AOWR has often succeeded in spite of itself, not because of any great leadership.

The IRL "victory" in this war gets down to two things:
-1. The complete and utter failure of CART/CCWS to get their act together and #2 The fact that the IRL had the Indy 500.

I do not think the IRL plan has been any more effective than the CCWS plan - it is just that the owner of the IRL had more personal commitment to the long term and perhaps a willingness to spend more money.....

So to the victor go the spoils - but lets not fool ourselves - the IRL is not a whole heck of a lot better than CCWS was... I said many times before unification that I thought the time had already passed for either side to survive the war and I think the jury is still out as to whether or not the IRL survives and thrives or just reverts back to the USAC mentality that the only paved race that mattered was the Indy 500... in which case we are just waiting for the next "white paper" from the next Dan Gurney.....

In the meantime, I am more than willing to give the IRL a chance and I have no real problems with the schedule - it is a good transitional schedule - but more and better needs to come in future years (and I believe there is an effort to get better - but I also think there are many with influence who would gladly see a return to the USAC days and ways....

[BenRoethig]

There wasn't any victory, we all lost big time. The only victory here is that we're no longer fighting amongst ourselves.

[SarahFan]

http://www.news-record.com/content/2008/08/15/article/could_there_be_indy_cars_in_furniture_city

[indycool]

Boy, I really doubt that one, Ken. Better than Coos Bay, but......

[garyshell]

http://www.news-record.com/content/2008/08/15/article/could_there_be_indy_cars_in_furniture_city


I want some of what he is smokin'. :s mokin:

Gary

[SarahFan]

probably more Palm springs then belle isle....


but the problem is these cities seem more interested than the viable ovals....or is it the other way around....Vegas and NH..

ah...so confusing

[-Helix-]

clearly he strayed from the original Vision...you can admit that can't you?

How so? The "original vision" was to create a series that provided teams to use their Indianapolis-style race cars in other events throughout a season involving the main spectacle of American Open Wheel Racing - the Indy 500.

Has he strayed from that? The 500 is still the biggest event on the calender, and there is a schedule of other events for teams to use their Indianapolis-style race cars.

All the open-wheel war was about was a shift in power. Tony was looking out for his own race and wanted power, the CART guys foolishly thought they could run an AOWR series without the Indy 500. They were successful for a while, but Tony eventually proved his point and was rewarded with being the new "head-of-state" of American Open Wheel.

I don't like Tony any more than the next guy, but I find it hard to hate him purely for taking advantage of our capitalist society. That's what life is about isn't it? Trying to get what you want, wanting more than everyone else? At least in America anyway.

[SarahFan]

How so? The "original vision" was to create a series that provided teams to use their Indianapolis-style race cars in other events throughout a season involving the main spectacle of American Open Wheel Racing - the Indy 500.

Has he strayed from that? The 500 is still the biggest event on the calender, and there is a schedule of other events for teams to use their Indianapolis-style race cars.

All the open-wheel war was about was a shift in power. Tony was looking out for his own race and wanted power, the CART guys foolishly thought they could run an AOWR series without the Indy 500. They were successful for a while, but Tony eventually proved his point and was rewarded with being the new "head-of-state" of American Open Wheel.

I don't like Tony any more than the next guy, but I find it hard to hate him purely for taking advantage of our capitalist society. That's what life is about isn't it? Trying to get what you want, wanting more than everyone else? At least in America anyway.


anything is acceptable........isn't it

[indycool]

Ken, you keep harping on what you try to make others believe was TG's "original vision." And you keep going back to it.

Things change. Situations change. Circumstances change, throughout life. I do NOT share your view of TG's "original vision." Changes have occurred. I plan to play golf tomorrow. But if rains cats and dogs, I'll probably pass on it. If a check you're looking for comes on a Monday instead of the previous Friday, for two days, you just hafta deal with it.

CART's "vision?" Certainly not bankruptcy. CC's "vision?" Certainly not bankruptcy. The IRL's PRIMARY vision? To be a racing league with more ovals centered around the Indianapolis 500. One of the three has been successful in doing what they set out to do.

[SarahFan]

Ken, you keep harping on what you try to make others believe was TG's "original vision." And you keep going back to it.

Things change. Situations change. Circumstances change, throughout life. I do NOT share your view of TG's "original vision." Changes have occurred. I plan to play golf tomorrow. But if rains cats and dogs, I'll probably pass on it. If a check you're looking for comes on a Monday instead of the previous Friday, for two days, you just hafta deal with it.

CART's "vision?" Certainly not bankruptcy. CC's "vision?" Certainly not bankruptcy. The IRL's PRIMARY vision? To be a racing league with more ovals centered around the Indianapolis 500. One of the three has been successful in doing what they set out to do.


keep telling yourself that...with every oval lost and street coarse added

[Rex Monaco]

CART's "vision?" Certainly not bankruptcy. CC's "vision?" Certainly not bankruptcy. The IRL's PRIMARY vision? To be a racing league with more ovals centered around the Indianapolis 500. One of the three has been successful in doing what they set out to do.

Successful? That's still to be determined.

The IRL survived the nuclear war. Now it's time to see if they have what it takes to rebuild from the ashes. And the jury is still out on that one.

[indycool]

Well, it's still standin' after 12 years.....that's a pretty good start.

[Rex Monaco]

Well, it's still standin' after 12 years.....that's a pretty good start.

Well it is a start. But after 12 years, it certainly can't be called a pretty good one.

[SarahFan]

Well, it's still standin' after 12 years.....that's a pretty good start.


split proved 2 things....

Cart cannot survive without the 500.....and TG can't flourish even with it

[garyshell]

split proved 2 things....

Cart cannot survive without the 500.....and TG can't flourish even with it


On point #1, I agree.

On point #2, it proved that in the face of opposition from another open wheel series vying for the same drivers, owners, fans and sponsors that he couldn't flourish. Since he has been without such competition only from Feb. to now, I'd say the jury is out on his abilities sans competition. I am not saying you are wrong, only that it is a bit too early to tell.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Well it is a start. But after 12 years, it certainly can't be called a pretty good one.

Largest fields since the CART days.

Most diverse OW series (large, medium, small ovals, street circuits, natural terrain road courses and even an airport).

Ratings up across the board almost 20%.

Attendance up.

Long term PAYING TV contract.

Sounds like a pretty good start to me.

[SarahFan]

On point #1, I agree.

On point #2, it proved that in the face of opposition from another open wheel series vying for the same drivers, owners, fans and sponsors that he couldn't flourish. Since he has been without such competition only from Feb. to now, I'd say the jury is out on his abilities sans competition. I am not saying you are wrong, only that it is a bit too early to tell.

Gary


had 12 years to prove it.......what did we see...

a complete reversal on the original vision...

3 title sponsors come and go

4 manufactures come and go

the loss of ovalcentricity

TV ratings for the series drop over 50%....and more and more regulated to the duece...and now versus


make no mistake...I'm happy with the merger....what i have been presented on track is a plus any way you slice it...

but from a biz standpoint.....IC point that its still standing and thats a start is just wrong

[SarahFan]

Ratings up across the board almost 20%.

Attendance up.

e.


can you back either of those up

[garyshell]

split proved 2 things....

Cart cannot survive without the 500.....and TG can't flourish even with it


On point #1, I agree.

On point #2, it proved that in the face of opposition from another open wheel series vying for the same drivers, owners, fans and sponsors that he couldn't flourish. Since he has been without such competition only from Feb. to now, I'd say the jury is out on his abilities sans competition. I am not saying you are wrong, only that it is a bit too early to tell.

Gary


had 12 years to prove it.......what did we see...

a complete reversal on the original vision...

3 title sponsors come and go

4 manufactures come and go

the loss of ovalcentricity

TV ratings for the series drop over 50%....and more and more regulated to the duece...and now versus


make no mistake...I'm happy with the merger....what i have been presented on track is a plus any way you slice it...

but from a biz standpoint.....IC point that its still standing and thats a start is just wrong


Exactly which part of: "it proved that in the face of opposition from another open wheel series vying for the same drivers, owners, fans and sponsors that he couldn't flourish." didn't you understand?

You made the point that the past 12 years proved TG could not flourish. I think it only proved he could not do so while there were two series. Each point you countered with to that statement occurred during that period of two series. What do any of those prove, now that there is only one series? Nothing, yet. And the operative word there, as I said before is YET.

History may prove you right, but the history is not yet written on the whole story. It is only complete on the two series era. And in that single context you are right, it proved he could not flourish. You know that, I know that, King George knows that, everyone involved in any way knows that.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Sounds like a pretty good start to me.

This would be considered a pretty good start if the IRL had started this year. But it didn't.

It is now beginning it's long road to recovery which started with the merger, after a poor start which nearly killed AOWR and saw the Indy 500 lose it's prestigous place in motorsports.

[indycool]

Ken, Gary has said it best. The scenario has changed from what was argued about for 12 years. It is informative of your agenda when you start bringing up past history about the IRL and do not place it in the context of the situation at the time.

[downtowndeco]

can you back either of those up


Latest published reports put it at an actual 18% across the board rise in ratings.

As far as attendance I'm just going the visual that the stands look more crowded at each event and the commentators always seem to mention it. I suspect that even if I sent you to an IRL link stating the exact number you'd despute it.

Most reasonable fans would agree attendance is up.

[Rex Monaco]

Latest published reports put it at an actual 18% across the board rise in ratings.

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=88428

[SarahFan]

Latest published reports put it at an actual 18% across the board rise in ratings.

As far as attendance I'm just going the visual that the stands look more crowded at each event and the commentators always seem to mention it. I suspect that even if I sent you to an IRL link stating the exact number you'd despute it.

Most reasonable fans would agree attendance is up.

if you could link those published reports that would be great....


and i think it's clear a handful events have been up...but certainly some have been flat....look no further than last week...track announced capacity sell out crowd and it looked just as half full as the year before....take a second and actually stair at the photo's...there interchangable

[SarahFan]

Ken, you keep harping on what you try to make others believe was TG's "original vision." o.

come on ic....can you actually with a straight face tell us the IRL is currently what TG told you it was going to be 14 years ago

[garyshell]

Ken, you keep harping on what you try to make others believe was TG's "original vision." And you keep going back to it.

Things change. Situations change. Circumstances change, throughout life. I do NOT share your view of TG's "original vision." Changes have occurred. I plan to play golf tomorrow. But if rains cats and dogs, I'll probably pass on it. If a check you're looking for comes on a Monday instead of the previous Friday, for two days, you just hafta deal with it.

CART's "vision?" Certainly not bankruptcy. CC's "vision?" Certainly not bankruptcy. The IRL's PRIMARY vision? To be a racing league with more ovals centered around the Indianapolis 500. One of the three has been successful in doing what they set out to do.


come on ic....can you actually with a straight face tell us the IRL is currently what TG told you it was going to be 14 years ago

Where did he say it was? I hated and still hate that original vision, but thankfully it no longer exists. IC clearly said things change, he said NOTHING about todays IRL being the same as the original vision.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

if you could link those published reports that would be great....



Best I could do for now. Up 28% according to this.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/irl/2008-05-22-indy-1c-cover_N.htm


If you think they're down please provide link.

[downtowndeco]

This article puts viewership up 17%.

http://edmontonsun.com/Sports/CarRacing/2008/07/17/pf-6189086.html

[garyshell]

Best I could do for now. Up 28% according to this.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/irl/2008-05-22-indy-1c-cover_N.htm


If you think they're down please provide link.

That one is pretty old, as it was posted prior to the Indy 500. I bet there are more timely indicators than that show an upward trend.


This article puts viewership up 17%.

http://edmontonsun.com/Sports/CarRacing/2008/07/17/pf-6189086.html

That one is much more up to date.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

It's great that some former CCWS fans have switched to watching ICS and that has helped increase the TV ratings.

That the overall viewership is only up 17%, means that a not so small portion of CCWS fans have chosen to watch something else instead.

[SarahFan]

Ken, Gary has said it best. The scenario has changed from what was argued about for 12 years. It is informative of your agenda when you start bringing up past history about the IRL and do not place it in the context of the situation at the time.


whats informative is you have spent YEARS spinning the biz of the sport....yet now that there is one series you propogate company line..

informative....and telling

[garyshell]

It's great that some former CCWS fans have switched to watching ICS and that has helped increase the TV ratings.

That the overall viewership is only up 17%, means that a not so small portion of CCWS fans have chosen to watch something else instead.


Not sure how you can draw that conclusion at all. It could just as easily be that this 17% of the viewership represents folks who ONLY watched CCWS and not the ICS and that all along there was a significant crossover of viewers who tuned into BOTH series. We have no numbers to PROVE either premise.

I know for sure that your assumption that folks ONLY watched one series or the other is flawed. And your argument is based on that flawed assumption.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Best I could do for now. Up 28% according to this.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/irl/2008-05-22-indy-1c-cover_N.htm


If you think they're down please provide link.

3 months and 6 races on cable old....not going to cut it

[indycool]

Rex, you hafta be kidding that any percentage -- up or down -- is based on the number of people who were "split" by two series. Indeed, some fans watched the other series just to complain about it. And how could you ever tell how many?

Ken: A) I was, and still am, for ONE series. Period. Yes, I'm happy. B) See dd's post from the Edmonton Sun and see Gary's response to both of those.

[SarahFan]

This article puts viewership up 17%.

http://edmontonsun.com/Sports/CarRacing/2008/07/17/pf-6189086.html

sorry....talking terry has been proven to spin the #'s.....

a perfect example is adding a race that didn't excist last year...like edmonton...then spining it as an increase...

post last years #'s...the this years...

lets compare actual ratings....not spin...

[SarahFan]

Rex, you hafta be kidding that any percentage -- up or down -- is based on the number of people who were "split" by two series. Indeed, some fans watched the other series just to complain about it. And how could you ever tell how many?

Ken: A) I was, and still am, for ONE series. Period. Yes, I'm happy. B) See dd's post from the Edmonton Sun and see Gary's response to both of those.


sorry....don't buy a word coming from Terry....do you?

[indycool]

What do you mean Edmonton didn't exist? Long Beach existed, too. They were just in a different series.

[SarahFan]

Rex, you hafta be kidding that any percentage -- up or down -- is based on the number of people who were "split" by two series. Indeed, some fans watched the other series just to complain about it. And how could you ever tell how many?

Ken: A) I was, and still am, for ONE series. Period. Yes, I'm happy. B) See dd's post from the Edmonton Sun and see Gary's response to both of those.

problem is you championed for a single series in a certain model that was presented and promised....and campaigned heavily for it for years...

and now the IRL is turning it's back on on presented ovals...Louden and Vegas are perfect examples.....and were hearing rumors about street and road coarses...

but it's all good....because those evil owners and manufactures are no longer in charge.... right

[SarahFan]

What do you mean Edmonton didn't exist? Long Beach existed, too. They were just in a different series.


perfect examples..... terry throws those # in the mix....doesn't factor in a diveder and claims increase...

we both know he is famous for spinning the #'s.....heck it's his Job....don't fault him for it

just don't buy it

[indycool]

Ken, I can't believe the conclusions you draw which go way past whatever the action was.

None of us know what went into discussions on a deal with Nashville, Loudon, Toronto or Las Vegas. IMO, I doubt that Loudon and Las Vegas are off the board forever. Indeed, if I'm the IRL, after the mess CC created in Vegas, I stay out of that town for a few years to let the dust settle. Loudon is probably a good location when all parties can make it work, and there's no indication they can't, just not for this year.

And yes, I prefer ovals. But I don't dislike road courses. I'm not very warm to street courses. The series is 10 ovals and eight road and streets. Should I bellyache because there are a couple races I don't care much about? I think not. It's one series again. It's still ovalcentric. I suppose I could pull fly crap out of the pepper on something but I lost my magnifying glass.

[SarahFan]

It's still ovalcentric.s.

but it's not....

and that's been my point since I started asking you how ovals aren't going to be replaced by more street/road coarses..

look no further the the final three races...a single oval...arguably the worst coarse from the CART era.... and a road coarse the diehard original Irilistas have had disdain for since it originally hit the schedule that has abismal attendance and TV ratings...

so again.... do you really not have some concerns that the IRL is going to continue to stray from 'The Vision' and become more and more like those two sanctioning bodies that have become extinct?

the current IRL is more similar to CART/CC than the 'ovalcentric were only in biz to support the I500 original IRL'

[indycool]

One. More. Time.

When TG announced the IRL, he said he wanted to return to an oval-based series. He was asked the question about road courses and his reply was, "not in the immediate future."

Road courses did NOT join the schedule until well past the "immediate future."

Chicagoland has NEVER run a CART race. You are thinking of Chicago Motor Speedway, built by Ganassi interests at Sportsmans Park, which died.

Infineon does NOT have unhealthy attendance numbers, promotes well (Davey Hamilton took an Oakland A's pitcher from his home to the ballpark last week in the two-seater) and just signed another three-year deal. The majority of those who complain about it are CARTistas who lament the loss of Laguna Seca in that market and CART and CC screwed up Laguna so bad that THEY left it and went to run over railroad tracks at San Jose.

TEN (10) ovals is more than CART and/or CC had since the early '80s. Earlier in the IRL's history, it had fewer for a couple years when the league was starting. It has grown to include more ovals and some road and street courses in its 13-year history and has remained "ovalcentric," IMO.

[Rex Monaco]

Rex, you hafta be kidding that any percentage -- up or down -- is based on the number of people who were "split" by two series.

So you think the majority of this 17% increase are brand new viewers that didn't watch either series? Do you really beleive that?

[Rex Monaco]

It could just as easily be that this 17% of the viewership represents folks who ONLY watched CCWS...

I think that's what I said.



I know for sure that your assumption that folks ONLY watched one series or the other is flawed.

I don't think that's what I said.

[SarahFan]

One. More. Time.

When TG announced the IRL, he said he wanted to return to an oval-based series. He was asked the question about road courses and his reply was, "not in the immediate future."

Road courses did NOT join the schedule until well past the "immediate future."

Chicagoland has NEVER run a CART race. You are thinking of Chicago Motor Speedway, built by Ganassi interests at Sportsmans Park, which died.

Infineon does NOT have unhealthy attendance numbers, promotes well (Davey Hamilton took an Oakland A's pitcher from his home to the ballpark last week in the two-seater) and just signed another three-year deal. The majority of those who complain about it are CARTistas who lament the loss of Laguna Seca in that market and CART and CC screwed up Laguna so bad that THEY left it and went to run over railroad tracks at San Jose.

TEN (10) ovals is more than CART and/or CC had since the early '80s. Earlier in the IRL's history, it had fewer for a couple years when the league was starting. It has grown to include more ovals and some road and street courses in its 13-year history and has remained "ovalcentric," IMO.

I was talking about Belle Isle....not chicago...

Infineon not unhealthy attendace wise...are friggin kidding?

and it's clearly not ovalcentric anylonger....when you have to check race to race to see what the next race is: oavl/road/strett...and 2 of the final three aren't ovals it's just not...

and over the last 3 seasons we have seen the addition of 8 street coarse v 1 oval.....even when places like Vegas and Louden have campaigned to be on the schedule

make no mistake.... as fan of diversity i love the current schedule...in fact I'd like to see a couple more road AND ovals sooner rather than later

problem is based on CURRENT history it doesn't appear that will be the case


the sooner you face that reality( it's no longer ovalcentric, and not headed back any time soon) the sooner we can have a rational conversation about the NOAWR schedule..

until then....enjoy the sand....becuase your head is firmly in it

[chuck34]

Ken,

Just what the heck is your definition of "ovalcentric"? I would say to me that means more than half of the races are on ovals. So unless you are going to somehow argue that 8 is now more than 10 I would say you are wrong on this one. The IRL is still ovalcentric. I think that is also IC's point.

Plus I never heard TG say anything about never wanting to have road courses. In fact I believe that he wanted some back in '94, but then realised that it wouldn't happen for a few years. So the IRL ended up as an oval only series for a little while.

[SarahFan]

Ken,

Just what the heck is your definition of "ovalcentric"? I would say to me that means more than half of the races are on ovals. So unless you are going to somehow argue that 8 is now more than 10 I would say you are wrong on this one. The IRL is still ovalcentric. I think that is also IC's point.

Plus I never heard TG say anything about never wanting to have road courses. In fact I believe that he wanted some back in '94, but then realised that it wouldn't happen for a few years. So the IRL ended up as an oval only series for a little while.

nascar is ovalcentric

but when you have to check the schedule to see if the next race is a lefty or right it is no longer Ovalcentric

when a series adds 8 righties and drops more ovals by a 4 (or is it 5) to 1 margin than it adopts over the same span it is no longer ovalcentric....

my original question (roughly)however many pages ago was....based on the current trend of adding rights and droping lefts...at what point will it IYO (or IC's) opinion no longer be ovalcentric and why based on tha same information should there be any confidence in TG to maintain it

and the general consensus by the hooklineandsinker crwod is...'well CC and CART are BK'..

problem is the IRL now currently lloks more like those series than the original IRL....

so now what?


just becuase I'm a fan of what is happening on the track doesn't mean there can't be some concern for the leadership of the sport....does it?

[garyshell]

It's great that some former CCWS fans have switched to watching ICS and that has helped increase the TV ratings.

That the overall viewership is only up 17%, means that a not so small portion of CCWS fans have chosen to watch something else instead.


Not sure how you can draw that conclusion at all. It could just as easily be that this 17% of the viewership represents folks who ONLY watched CCWS and not the ICS and that all along there was a significant crossover of viewers who tuned into BOTH series. We have no numbers to PROVE either premise.


I think that's what I said.

No, you didn't. You said:"That the overall viewership is only up 17%, means that a not so small portion of CCWS fans have chosen to watch something else instead." But by excerpting my reply, quoted in its entirety above, it made it look like I said the same thing. The point I made was that this 17% could just as easily be the entire mass of folks who watched ONLY ChampCar.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there was a pool of 100,000 viewers. 17,000 or 17% watched only the ChampCar series. Another 16,000 viewers only watch the IRL. Leaving 67,000 or 67% who watched BOTH series. So now that there is one series, and there is a 17% bump, you claim that it means in your words "that a not so small portion of CCWS fans have chosen to watch something else instead." I say it could just as easily be that the entire 17% who only watched only ChampCar now watch the IRL. I know my numbers are total fiction, but so is the assumption that a "not so small portion have chosen to watch something else".


I know for sure that your assumption that folks ONLY watched one series or the other is flawed. And your argument is based on that flawed assumption.


I don't think that's what I said.

Then what did you say??? How else can you arrive at the assumption that a large number are not watching any more?

Gary

[garyshell]

nascar is ovalcentric

but when you have to check the schedule to see if the next race is a lefty or right it is no longer Ovalcentric

when a series adds 8 righties and drops more ovals by a 4 (or is it 5) to 1 margin than it adopts over the same span it is no longer ovalcentric....

my original question (roughly)however many pages ago was....based on the current trend of adding rights and droping lefts...at what point will it IYO (or IC's) opinion no longer be ovalcentric and why based on tha same information should there be any confidence in TG to maintain it

and the general consensus by the hooklineandsinker crwod is...'well CC and CART are BK'..

problem is the IRL now currently lloks more like those series than the original IRL....

so now what?


just becuase I'm a fan of what is happening on the track doesn't mean there can't be some concern for the leadership of the sport....does it?

OK so YOU get to write the definition of Ovalcentric. Cue the angels, the word has been delivered. Henceforth oval centric means whatever Ken wants it to mean. The IRL is not ovalcentric per Ken's definition. Happy now? Now tell me again what that has to do with ANYTHING here or in the future? TG changed his vision. So freaking what? He said on the podium, while announcing the unification, that they (the IRL) made some mistakes. He said, in so many words, that he now wanted to be more like what CART was. So what? I still don't like the guy. I still don't forgive what the mistakes have cost the AOWR community over the years.

Now, I get a turn at writing a definition. Headline: CART and ChampCar are bankrupt.

So tell me again, how is it a problem that what we are left with looks more like what it was we both liked back prior to 1996? It sure as hell beats what things looked like two years ago or last year, when both series were on life support. It ain't 1995, I'll give you that. And the guy neither one of us wanted is at the helm. I'll give you that. But what does the obsession of the definition of ovalcentric or the obsession with King George's original vision have to do with right now?

Gary

[indycool]

Keep posting, Gary. I almost give up. Twenty years from now, Ken will be trying to tell us all about the "vision." Almost everyone in the sport itself -- Mario, Honda, lots of people tried to broker a truce through the years to get to one series -- and now we have it again and it really doesn't matter how that happened. So yes, I'm happy. There are far more ovals on the schedule now than CART/CC had in many years. So yes, I'm happy.

I watch TV and the boxscores and I'm happy the Cubs are doing well. My baseball fandom doesn't revolve around what Bud Selig does.

And the idea that CART/CC fans didn't watch IRL races is ludicrous, Rex. Look at past threads at CW. They didn't get the information to post their criticisms by NOT watching the races. And where the 17 percent comes from, how could anyone ever tell?

Ken, you're concerned about leadership. Well, the leadership you weren't concerned with is gone, failed, departed, bankrupt, quit.

Enough.

[chuck34]

If you want a Nascar version of "ovalcentric" then you have it, it's Nascar. My definition (I know it's not Ken's magical definition so it's not worth much) would be to half at least half ovals. I personally would like more than that. I would also like the engine deal to go back to what it was before Honda and Toyota. I personally would like pretty much everthing to go back to the way it was in the IRL in '98-'99, but add a couple of good road courses (I'm probably the only one here that would argue that was the best thing going). Of course I'm not in charge, and unless I'm mistaken none of us here are either. So we have to make do with what we have. This constant b!tching and moaning about everything TG does just because it is TG is pointless.

[SarahFan]

If you want a Nascar version of "ovalcentric" then you have it, it's Nascar. My definition (I know it's not Ken's magical definition so it's not worth much) would be to half at least half ovals. I personally would like more than that. I would also like the engine deal to go back to what it was before Honda and Toyota. I personally would like pretty much everthing to go back to the way it was in the IRL in '98-'99, but add a couple of good road courses (I'm probably the only one here that would argue that was the best thing going). Of course I'm not in charge, and unless I'm mistaken none of us here are either. So we have to make do with what we have. This constant b!tching and moaning about everything TG does just because it is TG is pointless.

I thought this was a discussion forum

Guess I'm wrong

[SarahFan]

OK so YOU get to write the definition of Ovalcentric. Cue the angels, the word has been delivered. Henceforth oval centric means whatever Ken wants it to mean. The IRL is not ovalcentric per Ken's definition. Happy now? Now tell me again what that has to do with ANYTHING here or in the future? TG changed his vision. So freaking what? He said on the podium, while announcing the unification, that they (the IRL) made some mistakes. He said, in so many words, that he now wanted to be more like what CART was. So what? I still don't like the guy. I still don't forgive what the mistakes have cost the AOWR community over the years.

Now, I get a turn at writing a definition. Headline: CART and ChampCar are bankrupt.

So tell me again, how is it a problem that what we are left with looks more like what it was we both liked back prior to 1996? It sure as hell beats what things looked like two years ago or last year, when both series were on life support. It ain't 1995, I'll give you that. And the guy neither one of us wanted is at the helm. I'll give you that. But what does the obsession of the definition of ovalcentric or the obsession with King George's original vision have to do with right now?

Gary

Never said I was the guy to write the definition..... But at least I have provided some respning as to why I no longer believe it

Others just. Use a sliding scale ....... First it was 2 ..... Then 4........ Now 8

With each Addison and delition they just change the criteria


My concern: loss of more ovals only to be rplqced by streets


The more the irl resembles the cart of old is that so unreasonable

[garyshell]

Never said I was the guy to write the definition..... But at least I have provided some respning as to why I no longer believe it

Others just. Use a sliding scale ....... First it was 2 ..... Then 4........ Now 8

With each Addison and delition they just change the criteria


My concern: loss of more ovals only to be rplqced by streets


The more the irl resembles the cart of old is that so unreasonable


I have no idea what any of this means. Is that last line a question or a statement?

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

How else can you arrive at the assumption that a large number are not watching any more?

ABC's races dropped 4.4% last year. They are only up 4% this year. So why aren't they higher?

[indycool]

The schedule DOES reflect, in the area of ovals and road courses, a similarity to CART in the early to mid-'80s. Nobody ever said it wouldn't when it got to be one series. So what?

But the structure is sure different.

Car owners don't own it, the public doesn't own it and one entity is in charge and Barnhart has been very careful about keeping in communication with all the teams and manufacturers on what's being thought about and soliciting input from the teams and is well-respected for doing so. THEN he makes his call and everyone goes down the road.

It doesn't require board meetings and lobbying and worrying about stock prices and such. THAT is a plus.

IMO, Loudon will probably be on the schedule in 2010. As SMI and ISC need to hold more events and build them up in a bad economy to show a good profit to public shareholders, they're going to need to do it with IRL shows as it grows around and with them.

I do NOT foresee another street racing craze because Pook, then CC, used all that up. No, it's not gonna be High Point, N.C. I very much doubt Mexico City. And Surfers is on a one-year deal at this point. And yes, along the way, Homestead isn't going to make too much sense unless ISC makes a move on Fontana, Phoenix and/or Michigan.

There are a lot of economic and strategic things involved in a schedule that we don't know about. Do we know Nashville and the IRL couldn't strike a bargain? Yes. Do we know what Nashville offered to pay for the show? No. Do we know what the IRL asked for the show? No.

Chicken Little didn't get famous by saying the sky was going to stay up.

[jimispeed]

The schedule DOES reflect, in the area of ovals and road courses, a similarity to CART in the early to mid-'80s. Nobody ever said it wouldn't when it got to be one series. So what?

But the structure is sure different.

Car owners don't own it, the public doesn't own it and one entity is in charge and Barnhart has been very careful about keeping in communication with all the teams and manufacturers on what's being thought about and soliciting input from the teams and is well-respected for doing so. THEN he makes his call and everyone goes down the road.

It doesn't require board meetings and lobbying and worrying about stock prices and such. THAT is a plus.

IMO, Loudon will probably be on the schedule in 2010. As SMI and ISC need to hold more events and build them up in a bad economy to show a good profit to public shareholders, they're going to need to do it with IRL shows as it grows around and with them.

I do NOT foresee another street racing craze because Pook, then CC, used all that up. No, it's not gonna be High Point, N.C. I very much doubt Mexico City. And Surfers is on a one-year deal at this point. And yes, along the way, Homestead isn't going to make too much sense unless ISC makes a move on Fontana, Phoenix and/or Michigan.

There are a lot of economic and strategic things involved in a schedule that we don't know about. Do we know Nashville and the IRL couldn't strike a bargain? Yes. Do we know what Nashville offered to pay for the show? No. Do we know what the IRL asked for the show? No.

Chicken Little didn't get famous by saying the sky was going to stay up.


Well,

I for one, am not very impressed!!

[SarahFan]

Never said I was the guy to write the definition..... But at least I have provided some respning as to why I no longer believe it

Others just. Use a sliding scale ....... First it was 2 ..... Then 4........ Now 8

With each Addison and delition they just change the criteria


My concern: loss of more ovals only to be rplqced by streets


The more the irl resembles the cart of old is that so unreasonable

my apologies gary.....I was posting on the fly from my phone

here's a recap...

I never said i was the guy to define ovalcentricty.....but at least I have presented a reasoned response as to why i believe it no longer is...

what I have gotten form IC and few others like DD....is a slideing scale...first 2 rights were Ok...then four...now 8..

so i have asked all along ....when will it no longer be ovalcentric ...opinions are fine....again slideing scale...and in DD case...doesn't matter CART is bankrupt...w ell that's not answer

with each Oval deletion and street addition they just change the criteria...



I am happy with the current schedule.... but over the last 5 or 6 years we have seen 9 (or is it 11?) ovals get dropped...and in the past 3 yeras the addition of 8 street raod coarses... mix in the rumors: dodger stadium, Biloxi, Turks, San antonio, Palm springs etc....

again Im more than satisfied with the current mix..... a few more of each would be great......problem is Viable ready to run Ovals with willing promotors are being skipped over


so based on CURRENT ( that's right CURRENT)trends...why should I be confident the IRL isn't headed down the same road as Cart/CC and continue replacing Ovals with Rights?


you know what answer I have been Given gary

A) 'I believe TG is committed to Ovalcentricity' ..... well based on whats been happening the past 3 yeras that doesn't appear to be the case


and

B) ' well it's till more than CART has, there Bankrupt"..... which of coarse is no answer at all.... is it?


more and more the current IRL resembles CART/CC..... is finding that a concern so unresonable?

[garyshell]

ABC's races dropped 4.4% last year. They are only up 4% this year. So why aren't they higher?

I don't know. But I am not the one assuming that it is because there are a large number of folks who used to watch ChampCar that are not watching any more. And why am I not assuming that? Because I realize it could just as easily be because a large number of the folks who watched ChampCar also watched the IRL all along and continue to watch it. I realize that we don't know, so I am not making statements/assumptions like:

That the overall viewership is only up 17%, means that a not so small portion of CCWS fans have chosen to watch something else instead.

Gary

[garyshell]

my apologies gary.....I was posting on the fly from my phone

OK, thanks!!! Now I can comprehend what it was you were saying. Sure I can see your rationale for concern. However I don't think there is any worry with it becoming CART. We will not have to contend with the public stock offering which in my mind was the death blow. Nor will we have to deal with the participants owning the series. (Note the PLURAL there. I realize we do have ONE participant who is the owner. But that doesn't create the same dynamic.) I think we have seen the business model of professional racing leagues run by committee (SCCA), those run as a publicly traded company (CART), run by three folks who didn't see eye to eye (the 3 amigos) and an autocratic model (the France family). As much as I despise dictatorships in governments, I am afraid it is the functional/viable model for racing series.

Gary

[indycool]

Ken, you see where the Biloxis and San Antonios have wound up, haven't you?

In the mid-'80s, CART was going to more road and street courses and Pat Patrick wrote a letter to his fellow car owners which drew some attention at the time, bemoaning the loss of the oval tradition. The CART board came out with a statement that it would "never be more than 50-50" between ovals and street/road. Then CART went right down that road to more road and street courses without ever missing a beat.

To me, "ovalcentricity" is what they have, 10-8 or more than half for '09. As I posted, I expect ovals to be added but I don't think we're going to see more than 20 races a season. If it goes differently, time will tell.

[chuck34]

Ken, this is a discussion forum. But your discussion seems to consist of TG did something, it must be bad. You still have yet to define exactly what you think "ovalcentric" is. I have given you mine (more than half ovals). As soon as the IRL has 51% road/street courses then I'll join your side, but until then I say it is an ovalcentric series.

Am I worried that the league might slide down the path of CART because it passed on Vegas and Loudon? No. As many have said CC poisioned the Vegas market for a couple of years. And Loudon wasn't a great place a few years ago, so maybe the deal they were offering wasn't enough for the IRL to give them another shot. I haven't seen any of the details of that offer.

And as Gary has said pretty well, dictatorships seem to work out fairly well in motorsports even if you don't like the dictator (France, Bernie). So I'm willing to give TG some time with a unified series. Especially since Barnhardt seems to be doing a good job communicating with those involved

[Rex Monaco]

And why am I not assuming that? Because I realize it could just as easily be because a large number of the folks who watched ChampCar also watched the IRL all along and continue to watch it. I realize that we don't know, so I am not making statements/assumptions like...

You can label your assumption a realization, but I realize that it's just an assumption.

It's actually very safe to assume that a not so small pecentage of CCWS fans hated the IRL and will never return to the series while TG is in charge. Everyone realized this then and most realize it now.

But it is easier to figure out than we are making it out to be.

If we look at last years CCWS and IRL races that were broadcast during the same time time period, those are the sperate numbers of viewers for each series. So this years broadcast of the same IRL race should include those CCWS viewers from last year. Any difference is the number of CCWS that have not returned.

And I think it's safe to assume that number is much higher than the 4% ABC gained back after losing them last year.

[Chris R]

I think the whole ratings debate shows how silly and just plain wrong the ratings system can be.... While it is all we have - I think it is hard to put much faith in the ratings numbers one way or the other - although it is safe to assume that a lot less people watch AOWR than NASCAR or stick and ball sports.....

[indycool]

Rex, the viewership of both was so small that you cannot honestly presume that those who hate(d) the IRL make much of a difference one way or the other.

The CW mentality is loud and nasty, but there are maybe a thousand or two, at the very most, who still carry the jihad to the extent that they aren't watching, IMO. When a couple hundred forum members there and a smattering of others at other forums proclaim they will boycott the IRL, it does not indicate to me that there is a major groundswell of public opinion against the IRL.

Most of the media, all of the teams and all of the sponsors are just happy it's one series now, so that easily overruns those who whine "I hate TG" on a chat forum. And probably watch anyway to take their shots when they can find them to take.

On another part of the viewership subject:

http://www.comcastnetworks.com/

[SarahFan]

the real scheduling question i have is.....and yes i'm posing it directly t you IC....but anyone feel free to chime in


How will/is TG going to make sure that the ICS doesn't fall victim to the same scheduleing problems as CART/CC and become a predomantly street coarse series...

now the easy answer is he just wont... well lets be honest....theres two factors at play here

1. the current ICS is closer to the old CART than 'the vision'

2. when an oval becomes no longer viable...homestead for example.... city goverments semm ready willing and able to pony up cash to get a race....

so how is TG and the IRL going to keep the IRL from becomeing 15 rc/sc v 5 ovals as the schedule progresses over the next 2 to 5 years

.

[SarahFan]

Well, Ken, time will tell, but I'll try:

1. TG is committed to ovalcentricity and the draws at most of the ovals have been adequate and/or growing and/or stable. No, Homestead ain't. The others are. And other ovals are waiting in the wings per SMI's statements. So, I don't believe that's going to come anytime soon.

2. After the Denvers and San Joses and Ansans and Zhuhais and Vegases and the cancellation at Phoenix, I doubt that many cities are jumping at the chance to have a street race. I doubt that many promoters are around that will take the chance on a street race without the right deal and sponsors and that's a pretty hard sell.

3. Pook, who mushroomed street racing in his career at Dover and CART, ain't a factor. KK, who tub-thumped it further, doesn't now. And I disagree that cities are clamaoring for races.

4. Just IMO, but TG seems to have a preference for real race tracks as opposed to street races.

5. It is slowly and grudgingly coming out that these street races don't draw what people were told they were drawing and tracks were only building 20-25,000 seats max and a number of them had few GA viewing areas. Well, if you're in Iowa and fill 25,000 permanent seats without the expense of track construction, that isn't any different than what was being drawn at street races with the added expenses involved.


.

[SarahFan]

Ken, this is a discussion forum. But your discussion seems to consist of TG did something, it must be bad. d


your not paying attention.....above are the two posts that began this conversation....


and all 5 of IC responses are wrong

[SarahFan]

Well, Ken, time will tell, but I'll try:

1. TG is committed to ovalcentricity and the draws at most of the ovals have been adequate and/or growing and/or stable. No, Homestead ain't. The others are. And other ovals are waiting in the wings per SMI's statements. So, I don't believe that's going to come anytime soon.

2. After the Denvers and San Joses and Ansans and Zhuhais and Vegases and the cancellation at Phoenix, I doubt that many cities are jumping at the chance to have a street race. I doubt that many promoters are around that will take the chance on a street race without the right deal and sponsors and that's a pretty hard sell.

3. Pook, who mushroomed street racing in his career at Dover and CART, ain't a factor. KK, who tub-thumped it further, doesn't now. And I disagree that cities are clamaoring for races.

4. Just IMO, but TG seems to have a preference for real race tracks as opposed to street races.

5. It is slowly and grudgingly coming out that these street races don't draw what people were told they were drawing and tracks were only building 20-25,000 seats max and a number of them had few GA viewing areas. Well, if you're in Iowa and fill 25,000 permanent seats without the expense of track construction, that isn't any different than what was being drawn at street races with the added expenses involved.

1. Kentucky: anounces Sellout and capacity crowd.... reality 1/2 full ....Healthy?


2. yet we have had 2 to 3 cities publish reports of wanting races each year for the past three..... and the IRL doesn't adopt ready to run viable ovals with promotors in place....?

3..... see answer 2

4...... real race tracks..... Long beach, Toronto, Edmonton, belle Isle and possibly Australia......HMMM

5.true..... but if a city goverment makes up the difference...from a promoter or sanctioning bodies standpoint what's the difference?

* I understand the difference from a civic standpoint DD... and I agree, just pointing out the reality of it

[SarahFan]

The CW mentality is loud and nasty, but there are maybe a thousand or two, at the very most, who still carry the jihad to the extent that they aren't watching, IMO.

]


sure they are....

[SarahFan]

Ken, you're concerned about leadership. Well, the leadership you weren't concerned with is gone, failed, departed, bankrupt, quit.

Enough.


Yet the lions share are solidly in the IRL..... and if you believe for a second that folks like Penske, Gannassi, Kalkoven, Rahal, Honda, Firstone etc aren't putting in there 2cents then i have some beachfront property on the grreat salt lake to sell you for cheap....


am i concerned the IRL is going to go bankrupt, fail, depart or quit?... absolutly not


but what has the current leadership done the past 3 or 4 yeras differntly that CC/CART to provide a more stable platform for its teams to be Healthy?

yes it has the I500..... is that enough?

[Rex Monaco]

Rex, the viewership of both was so small that you cannot honestly presume that those who hate(d) the IRL make much of a difference one way or the other.

I agree that AOWR ratings are way down from the height of the CART era, and that will continue to be the case for many years to come.

There are many who loved CART and left when CART died.

There are some who saw CCWS as the successor to CART and they left when CC died.

These are the fans that need to be won back to AOWR for it to see growth.

The ABC TV numbers do not show an increase this year if you factor in the number of people who left ABC last year. Which is safe to assume, this is how it will be until the series fixes it's many issues.

[Rex Monaco]

yes it has the I500..... is that enough?

It has a race at the IMS, but to call it the Indy 500 is a joke. It in no way resembles those races that made the Indy 500 one of the most prestigous races in the world.

When people come from around the world to the USA only to compete at Indy, then it can rightfully be called the Indy 500.

Until then, it's just the Honda 500 at Indy. They might as well be racing at Motegi.

[SarahFan]

It seems that each day the IRL moves more & more away from what its fans want. Cart died for a reason. There is no reason to resurect it.


This obsession with wanting to be European is very disturbing. Anyone remember why we turn left on ovals ? The people who built this country wanted to make a statement - WE ARE AMERICAN - not European. And yet the people who are now running the IRL seem ashamed to be American. They want to abandon American heritage - ovals - so they can emulate Euro racing. I know ovals are still the majority of the schedule, but look at the ovals - they are getting smaller & smaller. Only one super speedway. This fits in with the Euro mindset that high speed ovals are too dangerous. Look at how BB runs the races, lap after lat of pointless yellows, asking Honda to slow the cars down, ect. Its the Euro mindset that ovals are for neanderthals, not for the sophisticated upper class.

The IRL now wants :

standing starts
gimmik tires
push to pass
turbos
more street courses
fewer ovals

Does anyone think we will ever see Fonana, Michigan, Pocono or any other "big" tracks ever again ?? The IRL wanted to use the parking lot @ Vegas !!! That pretty much says it all.

The IRL is gone. That intense wheel to wheel, side by side racing is gone.

Cart is back, complete with its sole purpose of imitating all things Euro




.....(response)If the IRL wants to lose oval fans for everything except Indy and the ovals, they are doing an excellent job.






*^above is a post and response from a couple IRL fans I just read at a different forum...hmmm

[indycool]

Well, lessee, how many posts do I have to respond to?

If all five of my items are "wrong," Ken, according to you, we just disagree.

1. We don't KNOW all the factors in Kentucky, if the tickets were sold or not, and if Bruton Smith gets it, SMI has the best promoters in the business.

2. Yes, you have had the Biloxis and San Antonios and High Points, etc., say "we want a race." They haven't happened, nor are they likely to happen. Pook, CART and CC have poisoned a lot of waters for street races. Do those cities know what they might hafta spend? It doesn't seem like the ideas for any of them even got that far. I can announce that Bumwaddle's city council wants to have a race. From want to deal to execution is a long, long ways. So your comment that cities are just waiting in line doesn't fly. The IRL is NOT going to do Ansans, Zhuhais and San Joses just to do them, IMO. And the IRL IS prepared to run viable ovals. The discussions of Loudon and Vegas came late in the scheduling game. IMO, Loudon will be added in 2010. Whether or not CC laid a long-standing egg in Vegas or not, and the IRL and LVMS need to wait awhile for some growth to take place to try it again, remains to be seen.

3. See #2.

4. Infineon and Watkins Glen were the first. St. Pete was the first street race. It picked up Mid-Ohio and added Belle Isle. It inherited Long Beach and Edmonton, possibly the only two viable ones from CC. It now has Toronto because AGR thinks it can make it work. Time will tell. AGR has made St. Petersburg work with a topline sponsor lineup and good cooperation with the city. Surfers remains to be seen.

5. City governments make up the difference? CC asked Vegas for $2 million and got $500,000 and the race lost multimillions. All those deals are different.

Next post:

Of course the IRL is operating differently than CART or CC. It is private, not public, Barnhart and Phil Casey established better and constant communications with the teams and suppliers with no franchise board to answer to and the IRL office is in control rather than a (pick a number) car owners, all with different interests.

What has the IRL done the past three or four years? Until this year, it was in competition with CC. Now it is ONE series, what everyone has wanted for years. Putting that together alone is HUGE.

Ken, to answer your last post:

Of the things mentioned, turbos for 2010 is the ONLY one I've seen a quote from Barnhart that they're considering. Push to pass, option tires, standing starts, more street courses, fewer ovals -- I have read absoutely NOTHING from anyone at the IRL that those are even on the drawing board.

[SarahFan]

Well, lessee, how many posts do I have to respond to?

If all five of my items are "wrong," Ken, according to you, we just disagree.

.

sorry IC....

actions speak louder than your and my posts...

current IRL scheduling realities debunk your entire premise....which in the end boils down to 'I believe TG has an affinity for real tracks'

[SarahFan]

-- I have read absoutely NOTHING from anyone at the IRL that those are even on the drawing board.

I know i know....

and Fontana, Pheonix and Michigan weren't going anywhere.... Toyato had a contract and ABC TV deal was thru 2009...

etc etc etc.... and etc

[SarahFan]

question for the class....

which Oval will be added before we see any of the following added to the schedule?

1. Mexico City

2. Cleveland

3. Houston


or asked a bit differently.... what are the odds we will see an oval added before one of those three?

[indycool]

Loudon in 2010 before any of 'em......IMO....

[garyshell]

It's actually very safe to assume that a not so small pecentage of CCWS fans hated the IRL and will never return to the series while TG is in charge. Everyone realized this then and most realize it now.

That's a "safe assumption"??? Safe based on what facts? The vocal membership at the CCF? Yes, there were a lot of folks, including me, who felt that way in the beginning. But I also think that watching the demise of BOTH series in the intervening years, many of us came to our senses and knew that, without the Indy 500, an open wheel series would never be able to attract enough attention on Madison Ave. to be anything but a gentleman's' club for racing. And that as long as there was a split there would also be considerably less attention from that same Madison Ave. contingent absolutely REQUIRED to make AOWR as success by any measure. And when we came to our senses, (it took me about ten years to do so) some of us started hoping for a reunification, knowing full well that King George would be at the helm. Am I happy he is in charge, hell no. But I sure as hell am happy that there is one series and that there is a not a publicly traded company worried about stock prices behind it. And that it uses the only truly successful business model we have seen for any autoracing series, a (hopefully) benevolent dictatorship. Where the dictators own best interests are to keep a healthy series afloat.

Are there folks who will never return, of course. Are they in huge numbers as you claim, neither you nor I can possibly answer that question now can we?

Gary

[chuck34]

Ken, I'm not even sure what your point is anymore. You bemoan the fact that the IRL is no longer all ovals, then you say you like the schedule. Which is it?? I just don't understand, you seem to be a CART/CC loyalist, and you don't like TG. Then you argue that TG is a tool for wanting to be like CART/CC. I'm lost.

Do I like everything that TG has done in the last 6 years or so, no! But do I think that he has the best interest of the sport in mind, yes!

You asked this question:
"but what has the current leadership done the past 3 or 4 yeras differntly that CC/CART to provide a more stable platform for its teams to be Healthy?"

I will tell you that the fact that I'm not 100% happy and you are not 100% happy, but the manufacturers/teams/owners/drivers seem to be relativley happy. That is what the current leadership has done differently than CART/CC. They listen to the people actually in the series not nutjob (we all are) posters on an internet forum.

[SarahFan]

Ken, I'm not even sure what your point is anymore. .


is it ADD?...... rememember this is a discussion forum, and the natural coarse of discussion is to vere off onto relative tangents


see post #177

its a reprint of my first post on this thread.... can you give a reasoned valid answer?

[SarahFan]

Loudon in 2010 before any of 'em......IMO....

want to bet a race ticket to any domstic event in 2010?

heres the bet

if Louden is on the 2010 schedule and none of those three is I'll by the race tickets and meet you at any race

if one of those three is the 2010 schedule you buy the tickets

and if Louden and one or more of those is on the 2010 schedule it's a push


bet?

[Rex Monaco]

Are they in huge numbers as you claim, neither you nor I can possibly answer that question now can we?

I have not claimed "huge numbers". I have consistantly said a "not so small" percentage.

I'd think huge would be 55% or more. Small would be under 10% and 'not so small' would be 10 to 25%.

I think 10-25% loss in CART/CCWS fans is a reasonable assumption. That's not to say they won't come back. But there needs to be much more changes than merely adding CART dates to the schedule.

[indycool]

Ken, as we've discussed before, I don't bet on 'em.....time will tell......

[indycool]

Rex, again, I'd think that 10-25 percent would be enormously high. With the individual TV viewership numbers you're talking about, IMO, Osama bin Laden doesn't even have the numbers of people who hate something so much that they won't watch their ex-CC drivers.

[-Helix-]

It has a race at the IMS, but to call it the Indy 500 is a joke. It in no way resembles those races that made the Indy 500 one of the most prestigous races in the world.

When people come from around the world to the USA only to compete at Indy, then it can rightfully be called the Indy 500.

Until then, it's just the Honda 500 at Indy. They might as well be racing at Motegi.

I guess the World Series isn't a worthy championship anymore either considering baseball's popularity has declined considerably over the years and has been surpassed by football by a large margin.

When baseball is back at it's rightful place at the top, THEN it can rightfully be called the World Series.

Until then, they might as well field little league teams because I have no interest in anything that isn't the most popular thing in the world and not at it's peak.[/sarcasm]

Everything goes through it's ups and downs. Though personally I enjoy the modern Indy 500 just as much as the old ones. But keep up the wah.

[chuck34]

Ken, you want me to respond to your post 177 so here goes.

How do I know that IRL won't fall into the same problems as CART/CC? I responded to that in my last post. He doesn't have to try and satisfy a board of directors that only have their best interests at heart. He can look out for the sport as a whole. I know you think he's only looking out for himself/IMS. But lets think about that for a second. Your argument seems to be that he threw away Vegas and Loudon to "protect" IMS. What if it is the oposite? What if he thinks, like I do, that Vegas will be a failure because those fans have been poisioned to OW racing by the fiasco last year, and the Loudon's deal wasn't all it was cracked up to be? Couldn't that be seen as looking out for the sport as a whole?

Your specific questions now:
1) The current ICS is closer to CART than the "vision". No CART had a majority of road/street races, the "vision" was all ovals. Current ICS is 10-8 ovals. Simple math says closer to all ovals.

2) I've never heard that the city of Homestead is/was putting up cash for the race. But if they are so what? Maybe I'm missing something?

"so how is TG and the IRL going to keep the IRL from becomeing 15 rc/sc v 5 ovals as the schedule progresses over the next 2 to 5 years"
What evidence do you have that says he will? What will keep him from dropping all the road/street races and become "the vision" again? No one knows. Like IC says "time will tell", but I'm betting that the ICS is >50% ovals for quite a while.

[Rex Monaco]

...IMO, Osama bin Laden doesn't even have the numbers of people who hate something so much...

Are you really comparing TG to Osama Bin Laden?

While I don't respect TG as a leader or a businessman, I'd be very cautious about comparing him to a murderous terrorist.

Sure, both of them 'blew-up' something. And while the Indy 500 has been completely destroyed as we knew it, it can be rebuilt (but only if a competent leader is found).

But I'm certain that Bin Laden has way more than 10% of people who hate him so much they'd kill him with their bare hands. TG probably has less than .010% who feel this way.

[Rex Monaco]

I guess the World Series isn't a worthy championship anymore either considering baseball's popularity has declined considerably over the years and has been surpassed by football by a large margin.

So the World Series involves one team competing against itself for the championship?

And that's the problem with apples to oranges comparisons.

[indycool]

No, not at all. I'm comparing the number of people you are picturing who are so hateful of TG that they won't watch a unified series. I think it to be very few...LOUD, but few.

Internet forums are loud, but few. After 12 years, all the fussin's bein' done on the forums, not in the stands, not on TV and not by the competitors or sponsors. That is in NO way representative of the fan in the stands who doesn't even know anything about a split in the first place or care like the folks in Edmonton, who weren't even ever involved in the split, but relished a bigger field and the drivers and cars from Indy, together with competitors they were familiar with, to run there.

You and the CW jihad just don't represent a lot of people. Your 100th of a percent who hate TG enough to switch off the TV is probably high.

[garyshell]

When baseball is back at it's rightful place at the top, THEN it can rightfully be called the World Series.

Or when they invite teams from all over the World to participate? It always seemed odd to me that it was a "World" series for American and one Canadian team...

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ken, you want me to respond to your post 177 so here goes.

How do I know that IRL won't fall into the same problems as CART/CC? I responded to that in my last post. He doesn't have to try and satisfy a board of directors that only have their best interests at heart. He can look out for the sport as a whole. I know you think he's only looking out for himself/IMS. But lets think about that for a second. Your argument seems to be that he threw away Vegas and Loudon to "protect" IMS. What if it is the oposite? What if he thinks, like I do, that Vegas will be a failure because those fans have been poisioned to OW racing by the fiasco last year, and the Loudon's deal wasn't all it was cracked up to be? Couldn't that be seen as looking out for the sport as a whole?

Your specific questions now:
1) The current ICS is closer to CART than the "vision". No CART had a majority of road/street races, the "vision" was all ovals. Current ICS is 10-8 ovals. Simple math says closer to all ovals.

2) I've never heard that the city of Homestead is/was putting up cash for the race. But if they are so what? Maybe I'm missing something?

"so how is TG and the IRL going to keep the IRL from becomeing 15 rc/sc v 5 ovals as the schedule progresses over the next 2 to 5 years"
What evidence do you have that says he will? What will keep him from dropping all the road/street races and become "the vision" again? No one knows. Like IC says "time will tell", but I'm betting that the ICS is >50% ovals for quite a while.

wow....good to see you finnally got on the same page as the rest of us...and thanks for a reasoned response...

but my apologies as it simply doesn't hold up

here's why

you argument biols down to ...'it's privatly owned, and TG doesn't have a board of directors to contend with'..

problem is (as I have previosly pointed out) those same power brokers of the sport that were leaders and players in CC and CART are currently in competitiors in the IRL....of coarse were talking specifically schedule here....

those players are signifacantly involved in the schedule....AGR: st Pete, Toronto.....Penske: Belle Isle......and Kalkoven: Long beach.....hey, Suprise they those all just happen to be street coarses added to the schedule in place of ovals the past 4 seasons

then thers Honda.... they would even play ball to Long Beach on the schedule for the Merger.....


so no Board of directors?... true... influentual power players who need to be appeased? absolutly

as to your point about 10/8 Ovals v Road makes the IRL still more vision than CARII.... well you conviently aren't factoring in (sorry it's just a fact) influental power broker team owners, engine leases, street coarses, spec cars and engines, foriegn built chassis and engines, ...

sory got to cut this short my daughter needs a bit of help with home work

but add an etc or two to last paragraph...you get the picture...it's not just schedule..


and to your last paragraph...'no one knows, time will tell'...

well I watched CART/CC follow the same path for a decede the IRL has been headed the past 4 yeras....right into BK....and of coarse the CURRENT HISTORY AND REALITY support that....'I believe TG has an affinity for real racecoarses doesn't'

[indycool]

Ken, you believe that cities around the world are just lusting after street races and I disagree.

With taxpayers in major markets supporting stadiums for football and baseball teams, adding a race track has run afoul of that, as was the case with ISC in Washington and Staten Island. As with the shenanigans with the San Joses, Denvers and Vegases in this country, any city doing due diligence is going to wait awhile if not forever. Heitzler could not get anything going in San Antonio or Palm Springs.

Certainly, there are various sources of power within the sport. Without race tracks, you don't have races. Without money and sponsors, you don't have teams. Without TV viewers, you don't have ratings. Without fans in attendance, you don't have promoters. Without engines, tires or cars, you're a pedestrian.

The trick for racing is to build solid business relationships among all of those entities. With that MANY entities, it ain't easy.

[Rex Monaco]

I'm comparing the number of people you are picturing who are so hateful of TG that they won't watch a unified series.

Where do you think that hundreds of thousands of TV viewers have gone to that left after the split? Do you think they lying to Neilsen and secretly watching the IRL?

AOWR lost HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of fans during the last 12 years. They have not yet returned. Nor are they about to return anytime in the near future.

Those that wanted spec racing on oval tracks turned to watching The NASCAR Show (which saw it's rise in popularity coincide with the decline in AOWR). And while NASCAR offers a package that can at times be entertaining, there is a market for something different.

The problem I see, is that a bunch of old mid-western people are pontificating on what is best for the sport when the future of the sport depends on getting the young coast dwellers to watch, attend and participate.

[Rex Monaco]

Or when they invite teams from all over the World to participate? It always seemed odd to me that it was a "World" series for American and one Canadian team...

Gary

And Honda won the Indy 500 because it was the best engine in the field?

[SarahFan]

but I'm betting that the ICS is >50% ovals for quite a while.

cool.... wanta take the bet I proposed to IC?


it's a good bet, I agree with IC....Louden looks good for 2010 IMO also

[SarahFan]

Heitzler could not get anything going in San Antonio or Palm Springs.

.


very well could have been more a case of 'Mergermania'....with tracks like LB and toronto on the plate those may not have been given as much attention ...AT THE TIME

[Rex Monaco]

That is in NO way representative of the fan in the stands who doesn't even know anything about a split in the first place...

And what percentage of these socalled fans don't know anything about the history of the sport they claim to be fan's of?

[Rex Monaco]

You and the CW jihad just don't represent a lot of people. Your 100th of a percent who hate TG enough to switch off the TV is probably high.

And it's "you're", as in "you're wrong to label me a CW jihadist simply because I am not following the IRLista line of BS you are trying to feed".

I have never said I hate TG. But I do not respect him and I think he has been a failure.

It was not until he looked up at the calendar and saw the 100th anniversary of his track approaching that self-preservation kicked in and he accepted the idea that the sport needed to be unified.

I do not think that he has shown himself to be capable of turning this sport around. Time will tell if that is true or not.

[chuck34]

Ken, your argument about the current direction of the IRL going to more street races just doesn't really hold much water either. If there were all these city's scrambling to throw money at TG for a street festival then why aren't threre more already? What about Vegas, Pheonix, etc. I don't see any one activly trying to add another street race that hasn't already been a proven winner. Toronto has been a pretty good race in the past so it makes sence to try and add it.

As for your bet ... I can't afford my own ticket so why would I agree to buy yours. Never bet more than you can afford to loose, even if it's a sure thing.

[SarahFan]

Ken, your argument about the current direction of the IRL going to more street races just doesn't really hold much water either. If there were all these city's scrambling to throw money at TG for a street festival then why aren't threre more already? What about Vegas, Pheonix, etc. I don't see any one activly trying to add another street race that hasn't already been a proven winner. Toronto has been a pretty good race in the past so it makes sence to try and add it.

As for your bet ... I can't afford my own ticket so why would I agree to buy yours. Never bet more than you can afford to loose, even if it's a sure thing.

doesn't hold water?... are friggin kidding me

go back to the 2002 schedule.... then look at the 2009 schedule and report to us which races are and aren't on the schedule


and I'm willing to make the bet for 'bragging rights'..... are you

[indycool]

Rex, look at your own post, which says ".010%", therefore it's YOUR number.

You're right in time will tell. But one major obstacle, that of two series, has been removed.

And I doubt that a light bulb went off with TG about the 100th "500" coming up, so he made efforts to unify the sport. CC was toast and KK didn't want to do it any more. So, it was a matter of figuring out how to do it. That could've happened anytime.

So, find everything you think to be wrong with the IRL and hang on to all the vitriol about TG you wish if that's what floats your boat. There are some people who hafta hate something to have a release for their own various frustrations. If this is yours, it is what it is.

[garyshell]

When baseball is back at it's rightful place at the top, THEN it can rightfully be called the World Series.


Or when they invite teams from all over the World to participate? It always seemed odd to me that it was a "World" series for American and one Canadian team...

Gary


And Honda won the Indy 500 because it was the best engine in the field?

What does that non-sequitor have to do with the comment I made about the World series? I trimmed out all of the rest of Helix's message because I wanted to make a comment about baseball, no more, no less.

Please don't try to twist MY words into YOUR tirades, ok?

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ken, as we've discussed before, I don't bet on 'em.....time will tell......

Like I said to Chuck..... I'm willing to make the stakes....'bragging rights'


are you?

it would be nice to see you actually stand by your convictions for a change

[indycool]

"Bragging rights" will be obvious to all on the forum.......deal....but you just posted you thought Loudon would be on the schedule in 2010, too, so guess we both win or lose on that one.

[SarahFan]

"Bragging rights" will be obvious to all on the forum.......deal....but you just posted you thought Loudon would be on the schedule in 2010, too, so guess we both win or lose on that one.


I think it's a fair bet....I suspect we might see Louden (50%)and one of those three(75%) so it might just be a wash...

what fun is a sure thing?

ask Rosco.... I'll take an interesting bet any day

[Rex Monaco]

Rex, look at your own post, which says ".010%", therefore it's YOUR number.


... hate him so much they'd kill him with their bare hands. TG probably has less than .010% who feel this way.

So do you think more or less people want to kill TG?

And do you really think those are the same people who left AOWR after the split that haven't returned yet?



That could've happened anytime.

But it didn't, even though there were many opportunites during the past 12 years to do so.

He had two new issues this time, besides another the failing series reaching out to him. Honda's patience was running out and the 100th Anniversary was approaching fast.



So, find everything you think to be wrong with the IRL and hang on to all the vitriol about TG you wish if that's what floats your boat.

Ok and you bury your head in the sand and get overly offended anytime someone says something remotely critical of TG.

Vitriol indeed...!



There are some people who hafta hate something to have a release for their own various frustrations. If this is yours, it is what it is.

I'm sorry if I am not a fan of TG's leadership. He has not shown me anything spectacular, unless you consider the spectacular decline in AOWR popularity and the spectacular decline in the prestige of the Indy 500 to be his intentional goal. Because in this only,has he been hugely successful.

Does that make me a hater? That depends on your agenda.

[indycool]

Guess we disagree.....IYO.

[downtowndeco]

Guess we disagree.....IYO.

After going around in circles for over ten years with some of these guys that is probably the best response you can give.

That, or something I've tried recently, the "Ignore" feature. For example;

"This message is hidden because Ken is on your ignore list. "

Works as well as betting my head on the wall. : )

[SarahFan]

After going around in circles for over ten years with some of these guys that is probably the best response you can give.

That, or something I've tried recently, the "Ignore" feature. For example;

"This message is hidden because Ken is on your ignore list. "

Works as well as betting my head on the wall. : )

cool.... at least one side of our disagreements won't boil to ' at least there not BK'.....

[SarahFan]

Ken, Gary has said it best. The scenario has changed from what was argued about for 12 years. It is informative of your agenda when you start bringing up past history about the IRL and do not place it in the context of the situation at the time.

Current pole at TF is running at 87% believe the current IRL is closer to CARTII than 'the Vision'

so tell me again how mimicking a BK racing series is a good thing?

[Miatanut]

cool.... at least one side of our disagreements won't boil to ' at least there not BK'.....

Ken, I have to admire you.

At the former CCWS sites you always get blasted as a "fence sitter", and at IRL sites you get blasted as a CCWS sympathizer. While I consider Tony George to be, um, uh, lets just say a uh, less than desirable, um, influence on the sport, I've felt you have always been even-handed in where you put your criticism.

:up:

[SarahFan]

Ken, I have to admire you.

At the former CCWS sites you always get blasted as a "fence sitter", and at IRL sites you get blasted as a CCWS sympathizer. While I consider Tony George to be, um, uh, lets just say a uh, less than desirable, um, influence on the sport, I've felt you have always been even-handed in where you put your criticism.

:up:


it's pretty funny.... way back when I was firmly on the CC side of things...


then when it became clear that Champcar wasn't the CART I had fallen in Love I was just about the first to advocate "MERGER"....

and that lead to my being counted down at more than one Pro-CC site....

and of coarse the Irlistas simply said "screw CC and Merger, we don't need anything CC as it brings nothing to the table'....

and here we are with one defunct series.....a series it appears needed CC teams and drivers, venues, promotors, turbos, option tires, standing starts,
fans, ......

whats next Push to Pass and an exciteing new cable television partner?....I guess so


what a tangled web AOWR has weaved

[NickFalzone]

i'm not sure what the argument is. We needed 1 series for open wheel racing to be successful. We need ovals, along with road, and streets, and a large field of talented drivers. We need a series that actually gets paid to be on tv. The merger solved all that. Sure, it's still a work in progress. But to say that the IRL was the wrong side to win, simply bec it is bringing over some of the good ideas from CC, is a pretty sad way to look at it.

[SarahFan]

whose argueing?

[Chris R]

Back to the 2009 schedule and future schedules - after watching today's races (F-1, Grand-Am, ALMS and IRL) - the IRL can loose Sonoma just fine - I always thought the track was a snoozer - but what really drove it home was watching both the Grand-AM and IRL cars and then contrasting them with the ALMS cars at Mosport - the track at Mosport just made the cars look good - Sonoma did not....

[racecraze]

Im waiting for the actions in St.Petersburg, it'll always a very good location and the rally there adds more excitement

[SarahFan]

Im waiting for the actions in St.Petersburg, it'll always a very good location and the rally there adds more excitement

?

[nanders]

Back to the 2009 schedule and future schedules - after watching today's races (F-1, Grand-Am, ALMS and IRL) - the IRL can loose Sonoma just fine - I always thought the track was a snoozer - but what really drove it home was watching both the Grand-AM and IRL cars and then contrasting them with the ALMS cars at Mosport - the track at Mosport just made the cars look good - Sonoma did not....

When Marty said Sonoma was picturesque, I was confused. It's way too dry, almost desert, mostly too hot and basically very average esthetically. It is the wine country however and folks from the Bay Area like to do those 1 day vacations there .... but isn't that really Napa? After spending 6 years in the area it made me really appreciate the mid-west allot more. Isn't Laguna Seca the place where Open Wheel cars should be racing on the west coast?

[SarahFan]

No, because Laguna is pretty much a one line, no passing race track for these type of cars too, just like Mid-O. It's really hard to find a track that permits good racing and passing these days.

how about Fontana?

[Chris R]

No, because Laguna is pretty much a one line, no passing race track for these type of cars too, just like Mid-O. It's really hard to find a track that permits good racing and passing these days.

This is the problem with trying to iron out a good schedule - the issue of finding good venues is tough - many of the "classic" tracks do not allow for good racing with modern cars. Perhaps they key is to change the cars and develop a car that allows for multiple "fast" lines around any given track....

Just seeing a part of the Mosport ALMS race, I am thinking that a faster road course might provide more passing opportunities - the GT-2 cars in particular were really going at it and they looked pretty fast doing it...

However, one of my big problems watching Sonoma was that the cars just didn't look fast there - there was nothing for the viewer to use as a reference point.... By contrast, the Mid-Ohio race might have lacked for passing as well - but the cars looked exciting and fast - especially the pat where they crest the hill... There were lots of landscape/terrain features that allowed the cars to look good - Sonoma is just barren and depressing (at least on Tv - I love the area myself....)

[indycool]

Is there at least one poster here who hasn't found something wrong with any race track on earth mentioned?

[nigelred5]

Is there at least one poster here who hasn't found something wrong with any race track on earth mentioned?

Spa. no, sorry, they screwed that up too when they messed up the bus stop chicane. And that stuppid entrance to the new pits.. WTF??? I hope they painted that wall a different color for this year's race.

[SarahFan]

Ratings up across the board almost 20%.

.

IRL 2008 TV Ratings
Ovals
Homestead .8
Motegi .23
Kansas .66
Indy 4.5
Milwaukee .6
Texas .8
Iowa 1.1
Richmond .9
Nashville .5
Kentucky .43

Average with Indy: 1.05
Average without Indy: .68

Street/Road Circuits
St Pete .4
(Long Beach .8)
Watkins Glen 1.0
Mid Ohio 1.3
Edmonton (can't find ratings)
Sonoma .41

Average: .78 (excluding Edmonton)

[SarahFan]

^just saw the above #'s posted elsewhere... found them interesting and underwhelming