German GP - Practice, Quals and Race

[Valve Bounce]

Just thought I'd put this thread up for discussion about the race. I will be in pino's chat room (hopefully) for the race and the latest update on video links to the ITV broadcasts.

Can somebody please give us the weather update for this weekend for the race. Thanks.

[Tazio]

Just thought I'd put this thread up for discussion about the race. I will be in pino's chat room (hopefully) for the race and the latest update on video links to the ITV broadcasts.

Can somebody please give us the weather update for this weekend for the race. Thanks.Here you go!
http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/GMXX1608.html
Hope to chat you up during Quali, and race :)

[donKey jote]

Hope to chat you up during Quali, and race :)

I´ll miss this one I´m afraid... I´ll be out camping in the middle of donkeyland :)
No TV, no t'Internet, no nutting :dozey: :D :D

[Tazio]

I´ll miss this one I´m afraid... I´ll be out camping in the middle of donkeyland :)
No TV, no t'Internet, no nutting :dozey: :D :D
Bummer dude, were going to miss you!
Have Fun!

[donKey jote]

cheers taz :)

look at these showers pouring accross the Hockenheimring : :D
http://www.wetteronline.de/cgi-bin/radbild?END=f&CONT=dldl&CREG=dbad&ZEIT=vie&LANG=de

click on "loop 3 stunden" for an animated gif of the previous 3 hours and look slightly south of Mannheim


it looks sunnier for sunday though :(
http://wetterstationen.meteomedia.de/messnetz/forecast/107200.html

[Tazio]

It's dumping now, thats for sure! It's supposed to be dry Sunday!
I wonder how Ferrari are going to screw up their stategy this race? :eek:

[ioan]

It's dumping now, thats for sure! It's supposed to be dry Sunday!
I wonder how Ferrari are going to screw up their stategy this race? :eek:

They'll go for a wet weather set-up when everyone will know that it will be sunny! ;)

[Dave B]

Looking at the streaming pictures there's a little bit of standing water on the track and it's raining lightly. Everybody's done an installation lap and come back in, many of the drivers are out of their cars and chatting to their engineers.

Glock's gamely plodding round but the car's a handful in these conditions; Hamilton and Trulli have just gone out.

[Dave B]

Glock's reporting that he's having trouble getting the tyres up to temperature, that the track is slippery and that he keeps having to go off the racing line.

A few more drivers on track now. Vettel's quickest but nobody's really set a representative time yet.

[ioan]

They had a test there last week, so I doubt we will see to much running if the track conditions don't improve.

[Dave B]

I don't know though, the test was mainly in the dry and this session is a good chance to practice running in damp conditions - lord knows Ferrari need the practice! :p

There's quite a few cars out now, everybody bar Heidfeld has got a few laps under their belt and there's a dry line beginning to appear pretty quickly. Both McLaren's had harmless trips off-road a few minutes back; Ferrari are currently quickest with Alonso and Webber behind them.

[Dave B]

Bordais is saying that the grip is "either on or off": it's ok in the dry but as soon as you hit a wet patch "it's nowhere". I can only assume he's been trying dry tyres. His team mate, meanwhile, heads the timesheets.

Not sure what Quick Nick's problem is, he's still only completed the one lap.

[Dave B]

Webber's engineer reckons there'll be a "few drops of rain in ten minutes". There's a huge dry line on the track now and obviously everybody's on dry tyres. Heidfeld's put in an appearance and shot up to 3rd; the McLarens are 19th and 20th although neither have been out for a while.

[Valve Bounce]

I must admit that Vettel is impressive. Don' t know how to regard Heiki's performance - it must rank as very impressive.

[Dave B]

http://www.autosport.com/images/space.gifPos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:15.537 22
2. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:15.666 + 0.129 19
3. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:15.796 + 0.259 22
4. Alonso Renault (B) 1:16.163 + 0.626 22
5. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:16.327 + 0.790 23
6. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:16.606 + 1.069 27
7. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:16.618 + 1.081 25
8. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:16.719 + 1.182 20
9. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:16.821 + 1.284 26
10. Piquet Renault (B) 1:17.063 + 1.526 26
11. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:17.108 + 1.571 18
12. Button Honda (B) 1:17.131 + 1.594 28
13. Glock Toyota (B) 1:17.185 + 1.648 28
14. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:17.268 + 1.731 11
15. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:17.471 + 1.934 30
16. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:17.500 + 1.963 24
17. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:17.556 + 2.019 29
18. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:17.784 + 2.247 29
19. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:18.779 + 3.242 8
20. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:21.506 + 5.969 16

[Knock-on]

What's the streaming site?

[Dave B]

http://www.itv-f1.com/VideoLive.aspx

:)

[Dave B]

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:15.025 37
2. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:15.722 + 0.697 31
3. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:15.760 + 0.735 34
4. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:15.990 + 0.965 37
5. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:16.017 + 0.992 25
6. Alonso Renault (B) 1:16.230 + 1.205 38
7. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:16.355 + 1.330 41
8. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:16.363 + 1.338 36
9. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:16.377 + 1.352 40
10. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:16.378 + 1.353 35
11. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:16.422 + 1.397 41
12. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:16.530 + 1.505 45
13. Button Honda (B) 1:16.542 + 1.517 38
14. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:16.677 + 1.652 28
15. Piquet Renault (B) 1:16.734 + 1.709 42
16. Glock Toyota (B) 1:16.781 + 1.756 44
17. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:16.829 + 1.804 21
18. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:16.860 + 1.835 14
19. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:17.008 + 1.983 39
20. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:17.047 + 2.022 37

[Knock-on]

http://www.itv-f1.com/VideoLive.aspx

:)

Found it after a Web search :D Serves me write for being lazy ;)

[Knock-on]

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:15.025 37
2. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:15.722 + 0.697 31
3. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:15.760 + 0.735 34
4. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:15.990 + 0.965 37
5. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:16.017 + 0.992 25
6. Alonso Renault (B) 1:16.230 + 1.205 38
7. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:16.355 + 1.330 41
8. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:16.363 + 1.338 36
9. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:16.377 + 1.352 40
10. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:16.378 + 1.353 35
11. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:16.422 + 1.397 41
12. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:16.530 + 1.505 45
13. Button Honda (B) 1:16.542 + 1.517 38
14. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:16.677 + 1.652 28
15. Piquet Renault (B) 1:16.734 + 1.709 42
16. Glock Toyota (B) 1:16.781 + 1.756 44
17. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:16.829 + 1.804 21
18. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:16.860 + 1.835 14
19. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:17.008 + 1.983 39
20. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:17.047 + 2.022 37


I know it's just practice but that is a fecking huge difference!!

[ArrowsFA1]

I know it's just practice but that is a fecking huge difference!!
Hamilton and Massa were both on 'softs' in the closing stages of the 2nd session so unless Ferrari were running heavy they look to be lagging behind McLaren again.

Still...it is only practice ;)

[ioan]

I know it's just practice...

I think that says it all! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I think that says it all! ;)

Apples, oranges and bananas. :p :

[Knock-on]

Hamilton and Massa were both on 'softs' in the closing stages of the 2nd session so unless Ferrari were running heavy they look to be lagging behind McLaren again.

Still...it is only practice ;)


All Lewis needs is to get 2 laps out of those softs in Qualifying for them to do thei job :D

I think this can safely be described as a shot across the Bows!

[Tazio]

It was interesting that Hamilton was behind Massa untill his very last lap.
I'm not saying it's a fluke! If Ferrari were running quali fuel at any time during that second session,
"they in a heep o' trouble" :)

[Knock-on]

It was interesting that Hamilton was behind Massa untill his very last lap.
I'm not saying it's a fluke! If Ferrari were running quali fuel at any time during that second session,
"they in a heep o' trouble" :)

It looks like both teams were running similar loads for most of the session.

I suspect that Mercedes may have influenced a "Horrahhhh" last lap for PR purposes with Lewis using up a set of softs and minimal fuel but time will tell.

I know i rate Lewis very highly, and he showed in Canada qualifying just why he is a cut above the rest, but this one looks a little more contrived ;)

[Mad_Hatter]

Did anyone else notice when Timo went off and into the air? His front wing was pointing more or less straight forward while the nose of the car was ~30 degrees above the ground.

I'm thinking it's due to the air causing more downforce on the front wing b/c of the quickness that the car caught air. Seeing as everything racing and especially f1 is as light as possible, there was simply too much force.

OTOH there was talk, a couple of years back shortly after the ferrari flexwing goings on, that teams were designing the wings to vibrate faster than the eye could see. Could the behavior of the wing be due to this?


Anyone with better insight?

PS, not trying to start a toyota cheat flame, genuinely interested.

http://www.formula1.com/photos/597x478/tvimages/2008/germany/fripic21.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

If the wing was vibrating 30 bloody degrees, we will have Liftoff, Houston!! :eek:

[ioan]

Maybe it's just the high downforce set-up needed for the Hockenheim infield section.

If a wing would flex to such a degree it would certainly brake under the torsion load, CF is not known to be so flexible.

[Mad_Hatter]

If the wing was vibrating 30 bloody degrees, we will have Liftoff, Houston!! :eek:

Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about the intended vibration being caught in the act, but maybe the intended range was drastically compromised so the behavior is a possible result(example...intended amplitude x 3 or 4). Probably a reach, but it would be interesting if the possibility was true.

[ioan]

Vibration of any of the wings on a F1 car, even with an amplitude 3 or 4x smaller, than what you suppose we have here, would be highly detrimental to cars stability as it would disrupt the airflow over the rest of the car.

As for them vibrating faster than what human eye can see, it would be still viewable during slowwed down replays.

[Koppomsbo]

Whats up with kubica??

[Dave B]

Kubica's car had a broken driveshaft - he's on the backfoot today. Dry and windy for qualifying.

[ShiftingGears]

Vettel quick!

[VkmSpouge]

Lewis Hamilton taking a fine pole. The race should be very competitive tomorrow with Felipe Massa clearly top dog at Ferrari this weekend. Kimi Raikkonen is struggling with his car. I think the best performance in qualifying today was that of Jarno Trulli grabbing fourth place, good job by the Toyota driver.

[jens]

Forza Jarno!!! Jarno made only one attempt in Q2, hence dropped to P7 by the end of Q2, but he had potential for more, which he showed in Q3! Considering the good starts Toyota has shown recently, what are the chances of jumping Heikki in Turn1 and start fighting for podium again like in France? :D

Second half of the season has started and it is a very important milestone for Jarno as in the past after a first good half he has had trouble in the second half. In 2004 after a very good first half he scored ZERO points in the second half after falling out with Flav. And in 2005 the first half was very good, but second half due to deteriorating machinery, unluck and unsuitable car he struggled badly and scored only a handful of points. Can he have a decent full season for once?

Timo is a slight disappointment, expected to see both cars in Q3.

McLaren has been criticized for inexperienced driver pairing, but you see - they have already caught Ferrari in development and are likely to pass them. :D It was quite funny that Heikki made a mistake at almost every lap and still finished third. :p : I expected Massa to be quick at Hockenheim considering his past pace at the same circuit (in 2006 seemed to match MS), but Räikkönen a clear disappointment in quali again.

A superb qualifying by Alonso (4th in Q2 with the loss of 0,3s), but it does seem like Renault is better over shorter stints, so will he drop backwards tomorrow?

DC surprised me by beating Webber in Q2. What a rare occurence! Vettel also together with them. It has been argued, how competitive STR is compared to RB with roughly the same car with a different engine. However, it looks like STR3 might start beating RB4 quite soon!

Heidfeld a disappointment just when it seemed he had got rid of his problems. Q1 was encouraging too, but mistakes in Q2... Kubica was almost knocked out in Q1 after Sutil had blocked him on his last attempt.

Williams a bit faster than on the last two previous circuits. They seem to have some kind of an "allergy" to new and smooth tarmac (like Sepang and Magny-Cours). At Hockenheim the circuit doesn't seem that smooth, but on such type of circuits Williams is simply not quick enough to compete for points.

Button has often been quick at Hockenheim (P2 in 2004 and P3 in 2005), so he is beating Barrichello quite expectedly.

Awesome job by Force India! :up: Sutil lost only by 1,7 secs in Q1 to the first, but alas the competition is so tight that they are still the last ones. Today was probably one of the days, when Sutil was really quick.

Finally gaps in qualifying (if one car didn't make it into Q2, then both comparison times are taken from Q1)
DC > MW = 0.143
FM > KR = 0.202
NR > KN = 0.220
LH > HK = 0.252
JB > RB = 0.253
FA > NP = 0.272 (interesting that in Q2 Alonso improved his time by a second)
AS > GF = 0.306
JT > TG = 0.386
SV > SB = 0.438 (mistake on the last attempt by SB)
RK > NH = 0.472 (mistake on the last attempt by NH)

[markabilly]

So pitstops? One, Two or three?
Interesting that the gap between Q2 and Q3 is about the same for each of the top four, about a second. Webber and DC seem to have about a 1.8 sec gap between their respective Q2 and Q3 times, so are they running heavy?
Is there an advantage at Hocky to running heavy and saving a pitstop?

Okay how is that for a technical post??????????OTOH I could say looks to me that Hamster will make like a rabbit and be gone.....far and very quick, before the dogs can catch him.....................

[Dave B]

Kimi's buggered then. 20 laps sitting with Alonso in a queue behind Trulli while the McLarens and Massa romp off into the distance.

Hopefully :p

[Mad_Hatter]

Vibration of any of the wings on a F1 car, even with an amplitude 3 or 4x smaller, than what you suppose we have here, would be highly detrimental to cars stability as it would disrupt the airflow over the rest of the car.

As for them vibrating faster than what human eye can see, it would be still viewable during slowwed down replays.

:up:

Makes sense.

[gravity]

Nice little writeup Jens... AGAIN!

A personal view as to the gap between McLaren and Ferrari...
Ferrari are VERY easy on their tyres which gives them a big disadvantage on a short track like this. Massa has proven he knows his stuff around this track and his lap is impressive when u take their tyre temp issue into account. It's not KR's style to throw the car around and it was always going to be a struggle for him to get a competitive time here as he won't warm the tyres up 'naturally'. Their race pace will most prob match the McLarens (if not faster) but starting behind is a big disadvantage that I don't think they'll overcome in tomorrow's race... except if they can stick close enough to jump past on pitstops.

[Knock-on]

Maybe it's just the high downforce set-up needed for the Hockenheim infield section.

If a wing would flex to such a degree it would certainly brake under the torsion load, CF is not known to be so flexible.

:confused: Really?

I could swear I can get my carbon fibre Carp rods and bend them until the tip touches the butt. Perhaps I'm wrong? :p :

[Tazio]

It will be critical for Massa, and Ferrari to not lose a position to Kova at the start! Kova has the clean side. I wonder if Massa will give him the old prominent-chin-chop? :D
Mike has been working with him :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Nice little writeup Jens... AGAIN!

A personal view as to the gap between McLaren and Ferrari...
Ferrari are VERY easy on their tyres which gives them a big disadvantage on a short track like this. Massa has proven he knows his stuff around this track and his lap is impressive when u take their tyre temp issue into account. It's not KR's style to throw the car around and it was always going to be a struggle for him to get a competitive time here as he won't warm the tyres up 'naturally'. Their race pace will most prob match the McLarens (if not faster) but starting behind is a big disadvantage that I don't think they'll overcome in tomorrow's race... except if they can stick close enough to jump past on pitstops.

jens was in the chat room during quals and he provides the combined intelligent analysis therefrom :p :

[Tazio]

jens was in the chat room during quals and he provides the combined intelligent analysis therefrom :p :
A copious consortium, and brain-trust! :p :

[ioan]

:confused: Really?

I could swear I can get my carbon fibre Carp rods and bend them until the tip touches the butt. Perhaps I'm wrong? :p :

And how long are your Carp rods?!
Also since when is flexing the same as torsion?!

[Dave B]

You read it here first: Knock-on can make his tip touch his butt :eek: :p

[cosmicpanda]

how is the weather? Will it rain?

[Valve Bounce]

how is the weather? Will it rain?

You'll have to ask the guys in pino's chat room about that.

[stereokarter]

Just awake here in Toronto and missed the whole race...bah!

Now, does anyone have the reseults. s'il vous plait?

CB

[VkmSpouge]

Very interesting race with plenty of overtaking, Hockenheim always manages to do that. Lewis Hamilton clearly was much faster than anyone else but McLaren decided to enliven things by giving him the daftest pit strategy imaginable during the safety car period. Still the moves by Hamilton on Massa and Piquet Jr. were very good and Hamilton was good value for his victory.

Nelson Piquet Jr. had an extremely quiet first part of the race but that one stop strategy and the perfectly timed safety car gave him a shot at victory. Piquet Jr. must be ruing that Massa couldn't hold up Hamilton for longer. Very good race for Piquet at exactly the right point in the season. Nick Heidfeld benefited from good strategy too in order to get 4th place.

I'm glad Timo Glock is okay after his crash, he had been on course for a good result before his suspension broke.

[Mikeall]

The ITV commentary team were criticising McLaren's decision not to pit Hamilton, but I'm not so sure I agree. If more cars hadn't pitted (such as Vettel, Barrichello, Coulthard etc) Massa would have lost a lot of time as would Hamilton if he himself had pitted, to the likes of Heidfeld and anyone else who tried to pit late and then like Massa, Hamilton may not have had the speed to catch and pass them on old tyres.

As it was only Heidfeld did the same as him who had no effect on any other cars and Hamilton still won, but if he had pitted he would have had an easier job unless he couldn't make the soft tyres last. Although Piquet set his fastest lap on the soft tyres on lap 66 after over 30 laps on them so they were durable if used right.

Another point no one picked up on was that Hamilton wasn't pushing at the start of his second stint which maybe saved his tyres wfor when he needed to make up a lot of time which maybe prevented him coming out behind Raikkonen and Kubica.


Overall a great drive and well managed race from Hamilton and the McLaren team.

[wedge]

Another point no one picked up on was that Hamilton wasn't pushing at the start of his second stint which maybe saved his tyres wfor when he needed to make up a lot of time which maybe prevented him coming out behind Raikkonen and Kubica.

He did a longer middle stint with more fuel/weight. No point using up the car at that stage of the race, apart from the out lap. You tend to put the hammer down at the end of a stint when most of the fuel is burnt off.

[jens]

Despite the safety car mess the race order in the end didn't turn out to be strange if we exclude Piquet. What can I say? Mark's first retirement due to car failure this season (amazing, isn't it?). Timo's unluck carries on. After qualifying it didn't seem too positive, but 11th pos on the grid can often be beneficial. If someone else had crashed out instead of him at that moment I even think he could have fought for podium! (he had the same strategy as Nick and was driving ahead of him). Kubica had a good pace early on - although later faded a bit - and I was surprised that together with Hamilton he was the first to pit, which shows Robert didn't have a good qualifying.


Nice little writeup Jens... AGAIN!


Thanks for appreciation. :)

[Valve Bounce]

Interesting the benefit of watching the race as well as being in the chat room and also with the benefit of live timing, I can appreciate the race a lot more. Knowing the gaps between the different cars certainly helps.

[Knock-on]

And how long are your Carp rods?!
Also since when is flexing the same as torsion?!

Where did I say or even intimate it was :confused:


Maybe it's just the high downforce set-up needed for the Hockenheim infield section.

If a wing would flex to such a degree it would certainly brake under the torsion load, CF is not known to be so flexible.

Flexing is the angle of departure from normal state whereas torsion is the act of flex or twist and the torque it produces.

What you are trying to imply I'm not really clear on? You claim that CF is not known for being flexible and if it were loaded then it would break.

I merely pointed out that by flexing a 12ft 1.5Kg Test curve carbon fibre rod, I could load sufficient torque that it would flex from a straight line to a 360 degree circle.

I think that is quite flexible.