Guantanamo Torture

[Eki]

A Pentagon spokesman, Navy Cmdr. Jeffrey Gordon, denied that Khadr was mistreated while in U.S. custody. "Our policy is to treat detainees humanely and Khadr has been treated humanely," Gordon said.
Well, humans are known to have tortured other humans, so maybe Gordon didn't lie when he said the kid had been "treated humanely".

[anthonyvop]

Well, humans are known to have tortured other humans, so maybe Gordon didn't lie when he said the kid had been "treated humanely".

Have you seen the Video?

What a namby-pamby. Punk kid trying to play big boy and when he is caught cries like the little girl he is.

[Tomi]

yeah the torturers were really brave, wonder how many guys they needed to torture him.

[rah]

Have you seen the Video?

What a namby-pamby. Punk kid trying to play big boy and when he is caught cries like the little girl he is.

Take me to guantunamo bay and i would cry like a girl too. Why 7 hours of interagation? how long can it take to get information out of 16 year old?

[TOgoFASTER]

Have you seen the Video?

What a namby-pamby. Punk kid trying to play big boy and when he is caught cries like the little girl he is.

Profound and very telling there pilgrim.



Wonder what measures of 'extraction' were used in Bagram. They seem to have been ordered to lose their notes or did that darn dog eat them again. Quilty cause we say so? :rolleyes:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/09/terror/main4162881.shtml

[anthonyvop]

yeah the torturers were really brave, wonder how many guys they needed to torture him.


What torture? There was no torture in the Video. There was no torture at all.

[anthonyvop]

Take me to guantunamo bay and i would cry like a girl too. Why 7 hours of interagation? how long can it take to get information out of 16 year old?
You how no clue how interagations work do you. You go over every detail That can take hours, days, weeks. Then you go over it again. And again.

Even the slightest little detail can reveal much.

BTW That "kid" had thrown a hand grenade that killed Americans. He was given medical care nad human treatment. Much better treatment than the Taliban have given their western prisoners.

[rah]

You how no clue how interagations work do you. You go over every detail That can take hours, days, weeks. Then you go over it again. And again.

Even the slightest little detail can reveal much.

BTW That "kid" had thrown a hand grenade that killed Americans. He was given medical care nad human treatment. Much better treatment than the Taliban have given their western prisoners.

Wrong, that kid allegedly threw a grenade that killed an American. Last time I heard he has not been convicted. Nor anyone it that place. Just seems like a long time to interrogate a minor. Isn't he 21 now? seems like a long time without being convicted.

[Tomi]

What torture? There was no torture in the Video. There was no torture at all.

Not in the video, but the guy claims he has been tortured too, i dont think there is any reason why not to belive him.

[BDunnell]

Have you seen the Video?

What a namby-pamby. Punk kid trying to play big boy and when he is caught cries like the little girl he is.

Would you care to elaborate as to your definition of torture and the point at which it becomes unacceptable?

[SOD]

vop climbs down from "we dont do torture"

:laugh:

[anthonyvop]

Not in the video, but the guy claims he has been tortured too, i dont think there is any reason why not to belive him.
HE IS A TERRORIST!!!!!
That is why you don't believe him.

[Tomi]

HE IS A TERRORIST!!!!!
That is why you don't believe him.

says who? better wait until he has been in court.

[SOD]

I've lived long enough to have seen many so-called terrorists become noble statesmen. :)

[Drew]

And it's all going on in Cuba, anybody else find this odd?

[SOD]

And it's all going on in Cuba, anybody else find this odd?

no I don't. Guantanamo is some people's idea of what the whole island of Cuba should be.

There's more political prisoners in Guantanamo than are held under Castro.

[BDunnell]

HE IS A TERRORIST!!!!!
That is why you don't believe him.

Interesting concept of 'justice' you have there.

[anthonyvop]

no I don't. Guantanamo is some people's idea of what the whole island of Cuba should be.

There's more political prisoners in Guantanamo than are held under Castro.
There are 11,394,043 political prisoners in Cuba.
None can be found in Guantanamo.

[anthonyvop]

If anybody has proof of Torture of the detainees at Guantanamo I would like to see it.
I don't want testemony from the prisoners. I want hard evidence.

BTW Speep deprevation, Solitary confinment, long Interrogations and water-boarding are not torture.

So if you have Video or Photos of the detainees being tortured I would like to see it.
Until then why don't you guys give the US the same benifit of the doubt you give to the Taliban Terrorists.

[Tomi]

If anybody has proof of Torture of the detainees at Guantanamo I would like to see it.
I don't want testemony from the prisoners. I want hard evidence.

BTW Speep deprevation, Solitary confinment, long Interrogations and water-boarding are not torture.

So if you have Video or Photos of the detainees being tortured I would like to see it.
Until then why don't you guys give the US the same benifit of the doubt you give to the Taliban Terrorists.

So you accept that any us citizen could be treated the same way, if arrested on simular nonsense grounds that the majority of those in Guantanamo Bay?

[Eki]

If anybody has proof of Torture of the detainees at Guantanamo I would like to see it.
I don't want testemony from the prisoners. I want hard evidence.

BTW Speep deprevation, Solitary confinment, long Interrogations and water-boarding are not torture.

Living in Cuba is not torture either, yet you seem to have included every one in Cuba, including Fidel Castro, in political prisoners.

[TOgoFASTER]

I think he preferred the mob plantation that was ran by dictator Fulgencio Batista and the Mafia.
I hear they were kind and loving to the peoples of Cuba. :rolleyes:

[anthonyvop]

I think he preferred the mob plantation that was ran by dictator Fulgencio Batista and the Mafia.
I hear they were kind and loving to the peoples of Cuba. :rolleyes:

It is better for you to be just ignorant than it is for you to prove to the world here with your posts.

[TOgoFASTER]

Thin skinned or what?

[TOgoFASTER]

It is better for you to be just ignorant than it is for you to prove to the world here with your posts.

Could you clarify, the above seems to make no sense at all. ;) Pilgrim

[rah]

If anybody has proof of Torture of the detainees at Guantanamo I would like to see it.
I don't want testemony from the prisoners. I want hard evidence.

BTW Speep deprevation, Solitary confinment, long Interrogations and water-boarding are not torture.

So if you have Video or Photos of the detainees being tortured I would like to see it.
Until then why don't you guys give the US the same benifit of the doubt you give to the Taliban Terrorists.

Water boarding definitely is torture. Sleep deprivation and solitary confinement can be torture. Just because the war criminal in the white house wants to torture people doesn't mean it is legal.

[airshifter]

Water boarding definitely is torture. Sleep deprivation and solitary confinement can be torture. Just because the war criminal in the white house wants to torture people doesn't mean it is legal.

It's common for people to accuse Bush and many from the US of crimes not yet tried, but the same people are saying that detainees in Cuba should be considered innocent until proven otherwise.

Years back many claimed the US, the UN, and just about anyone else would charge Bush for war crimes. I guess they are still trying to figure out what laws of war he or anyone else in the US have violated. :laugh:

[Eki]

I think he preferred the mob plantation that was ran by dictator Fulgencio Batista and the Mafia.
I hear they were kind and loving to the peoples of Cuba. :rolleyes:
Especially they wanted little girls to grow up to be doctors instead of prostitutes.

[SOD]

It's common for people to accuse Bush and many from the US of crimes not yet tried, but the same people are saying that detainees in Cuba should be considered innocent until proven otherwise.

Years back many claimed the US, the UN, and just about anyone else would charge Bush for war crimes. I guess they are still trying to figure out what laws of war he or anyone else in the US have violated. :laugh:

what are the people at Guantanamo guilty of?

We know that Bush is guilty. I'll leave the million or so dead people to kick him into hell, especially the 5,000 Americans who perished (4k troops and another >1,000 contractors who never made it home). But don't worry, he might leave with another war you cannot finish , before he leaves office :dork:

Bush will move to Paraguay, guess what you're not invited :laugh:

[SOD]

There are 11,394,043 political prisoners in Cuba.
None can be found in Guantanamo.

There are 58 political prisoners held in Cuban jails. Put that in your Havana and smoke it.

[SOD]

So you accept that any us citizen could be treated the same way, if arrested on simular nonsense grounds that the majority of those in Guantanamo Bay?


That's what the TASER is for. I wish I bought this stock a year ago, it's going up!!!

[schmenke]

what are the people at Guantanamo guilty of?...

Well, Khadr is no saint. He is accused of throwing a grenade, killing a coalition soldier. Prior to his presence in Iraq he moved from Canada to Pakistan to train in a terrorist camp :mark:

He has Canadian citizenship and many Canadians are pressuring our government to have him extradited from U.S. custody back to Canada to be given a fair trial. As far as I'm concerned he can rot in Guantanimo; let the U.S. taxpayer pay for it.

[anthonyvop]

There are 58 political prisoners held in Cuban jails. Put that in your Havana and smoke it.
Sod,

What color is the sky in your world?

Even if there were only 58 political prisoners in Cuba (a number so ridiculously low I bet even Michael Moore would have a hard time beleiving it) that still makes 58 more that are being held in Guantanamo.

[anthonyvop]

[quote="rah"]Water boarding definitely is torture. [quote]

No it is not

[quote="rah"]Sleep deprivation and solitary confinement can be torture. [quote]

No it is not.

Neither causes physical harm.

[schmenke]

Torture is having two kids under the age of 4 :mark:

[Daniel]

yeah the torturers were really brave, wonder how many guys they needed to torture him.

You're not a man unless you've tortured a helpless person or gone to war for a needless cause :)

[TOgoFASTER]

You're not a man unless you order and instruct others to do the torture for you while you reinvent what is not torture, physical and or psychological, with superfical definitions and sound bites as it fits as you go along from a safe distance from justice.
A few will always lock step and follow along.

[Eki]

You're not a man unless you order and instruct others to do the torture for you while you reinvent what is not torture, physical and or psychological, with superfical definitions and sound bites as it fits as you go along from a safe distance from justice.
A few will always lock step and follow along.
:up: True. It's not nice to invent new rules while you're already playing. That's what Bush has been doing all along. First he broke international laws and went to war without a consent from the UN. Then he invented some new words and rules, and decided by himself who's a prisoner of war and what is considered torture.

[rah]

Water boarding definitely is torture.


No it is not


Sleep deprivation and solitary confinement can be torture. [quote:1cw73cc7]

No it is not.

Neither causes physical harm.[/quote:1cw73cc7]

Really, I would call drowning someone causing them harm. Long term sleep deprivation and solitary confinement will cause psychological harm.

Also historically the US Govt considers water boarding torture. The USA has even convicted someone of it.

[donKey jote]

It is better for you to be just ignorant than it is for you to prove to the world here with your posts.

black pot boggles kettle mind :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:dozey:

[ShiftingGears]

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm
According to the UN, torture is...
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

[airshifter]

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm
According to the UN, torture is...
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

And if you look at the long list of objections, reservations and declarations, the US clarified it's position quite well on what the UN thought on the issues.


"United States of America
Upon signature :

Declaration:

"The Government of the United States of America reserves the right to communicate, upon ratification, such reservations, interpretive understandings, or declarations as are deemed necessary."

Upon ratification :

Reservations:

"I. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following reservations:

(1) That the United States considers itself bound by the obligation under article 16 to prevent `cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment', only insofar as the term `cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment' means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.

(2) That pursuant to article 30 (2) the United States declares that it does not consider itself bound by Article 30 (1), but reserves the right specifically to agree to follow this or any other procedure for arbitration in a particular case.

II. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following understandings, which shall apply to the obligations of the United States under this Convention:

(1) (a) That with reference to article 1, the United States understands that, in order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.

(b) That the United States understands that the definition of torture in article 1 is intended to apply only to acts directed against persons in the offender's custody or physical control.

(c) That with reference to article 1 of the Convention, the United States understands that `sanctions' includes judicially-imposed sanctions and other enforcement actions authorized by United States law or by judicial interpretation of such law. Nonetheless, the United States understands that a State Party could not through its domestic sanctions defeat the object and purpose of the Convention to prohibit torture.

(d) That with reference to article 1 of the Convention, the United States understands that the term `acquiescence' requires that the public official, prior to the activity constituting torture, have awareness of such activity and thereafter breach his legal responsibility to intervene to prevent such activity.

(e) That with reference to article 1 of the Convention, the Unites States understands that noncompliance with applicable legal procedural standards does not per se constitute torture.

(2) That the United States understands the phrase, `where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture,' as used in article 3 of the Convention, to mean `if it is more likely than not that he would be tortured.'

(3) That it is the understanding of the United States that article 14 requires a State Party to provide a private right of action for damages only for acts of torture committed in territory under the jurisdiction of that State Party.

(4) That the United States understands that international law does not prohibit the death penalty, and does not consider this Convention to restrict or prohibit the United States from applying the death penalty consistent with the Fifth, Eighth and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, including any constitutional period of confinement prior to the imposition of the death penalty.

(5) That the United States understands that this Convention shall be implemented by the United States Government to the extent that it exercises legislative and judicial jurisdiction over the matters covered by the Convention and otherwise by the state and local governments. Accordingly, in implementing articles 10-14 and 16, the United States Government shall take measures appropriate to the Federal system to the end that the competent authorities of the constituent units of the United States of America may take appropriate measures for the fulfilment of the Convention.

III. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following declarations:

(1) That the United States declares that the provisions of articles 1 through 16 of the Convention are not self-executing."



A lot of people go through military training that is closer to tortue than what is happening at Guantanamo Bay. If people were crying about someone proven to be innocent that would be one issue, but people are up in arms over someone that should have had worse treatment.

I'm surprised that the various people here from the UK, the Aussies, and the Kiwis aren't at all upset about a Bali bomber that ended up in US custody and subject to the same laws. After all, with some of the known bombers being freed by Indonesia they should be upset that the US insists on actually punishing known terrorists.

[Tomi]

You're not a man unless you've tortured a helpless person or gone to war for a needless cause :)

Thats true offcourse, and even more a man, if you can find some brainless woman guilty of what you have done.

[anthonyvop]

I love watching liberals get all "outraged"

"The UN this." "Amnesty International that."

I love to see them jump to another topic when faced with facts that contradict their sensibilities.

You guys are fun!

[Tomi]

HE IS A TERRORIST!!!!!
That is why you don't believe him.

how come did your government take away Mandela from the terrorist list a few weeks ago? I mean who gave the hint that he might not be a terrorist?

[TOgoFASTER]

How about that extraordinary rendition deal?

[BTCC Fan#1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7515517.stm

"Given the clear differences in definition, the UK can no longer rely on US assurances that it does not use torture"
Foreign Affairs Select Committee

On rendition, the Government were caught with their trousers down. After months of saying no US 'rendition flights' had landed on any UK territory, Milliband had to come out and admit that actually, yes they had.

[SOD]

How about that extraordinary rendition deal?

those $10k a night hotels for the abductors and all the extras ;) ;) that go with that, where do I sign up?

[ShiftingGears]

I love watching liberals get all "outraged"

"The UN this." "Amnesty International that."

I love to see them jump to another topic when faced with facts that contradict their sensibilities.

You guys are fun!

Considering that without the UN, what constitutes human rights and torture would merely be an increasingly vague, manipulated opinion, changing on each individual countries circumstances, then yes, what is defined by the UN does add to this discussion.

[ShiftingGears]

A lot of people go through military training that is closer to tortue than what is happening at Guantanamo Bay.

Like what? Something worse than water boarding? Not a good way to justify an opinion.

Also apply simulated drowning to Part II)1)a) of that reservation. Under that understanding, water boarding constitutes torture.


I'm surprised that the various people here from the UK, the Aussies, and the Kiwis aren't at all upset about a Bali bomber that ended up in US custody and subject to the same laws. After all, with some of the known bombers being freed by Indonesia they should be upset that the US insists on actually punishing known terrorists.

You're not raising the bar very high when you compare a countries judicial system to Indonesia's. Everyone knows that.

[rah]

Just a few things to consider: waterboarding is not simulated drowning, it is drowning. So who has used it before?

Spanish inquisition
Dutch East India Company
US Army in the Phillipines after the Spanish American War. The Major involved was sentenced to 10 years hard labour.
WWII - Japanese troops and the Gestapo
The French in the Algerian war
US forces and South Vietnamese forces during the Vietnam War
Pinochet in Chile
Khmer Rouge
Current US forces both in training and in your normal everyday torture.

Torture should not be used by any civilised country these days. Its a tragedy that it is still being used by the USA.

[anthonyvop]

Waterboarding is not Torture!
It niether causes no physical Pain nor does it cause physiological injury!

End of arguement.

[Eki]

Waterboarding is not Torture!
It niether causes no physical Pain nor does it cause physiological injury!

End of arguement.
What use is it then? A novel way to take a bath?

[anthonyvop]

What use is it then? A novel way to take a bath?

Saves lives!
Quite possibly yours.

[ShiftingGears]

It niether causes no physical Pain

My point exactly.

[TOgoFASTER]

It does sound like he speaks from experience.

[Roamy]

After watching these barbarians behead people!

Well if it save one american life then I read something I can subscribe to.

Red is positive
Black is negative

[anthonyvop]

It does sound like he speaks from experience.

Actually I have been waterboarded.
It is very effective.
No Damage.
Not Turture.

[DonJippo]

Actually I have been waterboarded.
It is very effective.
No Damage.
Not Turture.

Are you sure it did not cause any damage :hmph:

[TOgoFASTER]

No Damage.
Not Turture.

Are you sure? :D

[Zico]

Not Turture.

Perhaps...

Definately torture though.

[TOgoFASTER]

Being placed into a simulation in which it is a known that the water boarders are not going to take the person being water boarded to repeated states of unconsciousness with the real threat of possible death hanging overhead makes that experience null and void to the subject at hand... torture.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170_pf.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834

[Eki]

Saves lives!
Quite possibly yours.

In what way it saves lives?

If it doesn't cause any mental or physical stress, it sounds about as efficient interrogation method as a nice warm bath. Waste of time and water. If it does cause mental or physical stress, it's torture.

[Rani]

In what way it saves lives?

If it doesn't cause any mental or physical stress, it sounds about as efficient interrogation method as a nice warm bath. Waste of time and water. If it does cause mental or physical stress, it's torture.
I guess it's pretty effective if it's been in use since the spanish inquisition.
If someone gets waterboarded and tells where a suicide bomber is hiding out prior to his attack then yeah I'd say that saves lives.

[anthonyvop]

. If it does cause mental or physical stress, it's torture.

So do handcuffs.
So does being locked in a cell.
So does being asked questions by your captors!
So does listening to Celine Dion.

Are those torture also?

Ok Celine Dion is but the others aren't!

[anthonyvop]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170_pf.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834

TOgoFaster,

Word to the wise. Never use The Washington Post or NPR as part of yoru arguement when debating a Conservative.

[TOgoFASTER]

I wasn't debating because there is nothing to debate.

I have the same report that a Tampa paper ran at about the same time frame as the article that was printed in the Post. It has a good Sloth FLA flavor to it as well, their conclusion... it was, is and will always be torture. Just like it has been noted as for centuries.


extremists are indeed funny.

[anthonyvop]

I wasn't debating because there is nothing to debate.

I have the same report that a Tampa paper ran at about the same time frame as the article that was printed in the Post. It has a good Sloth FLA flavor to it as well, their conclusion... it was, is and will always be torture. Just like it has been noted as for centuries.


extremists are indeed funny.
Tampa isn't south Florida and I don't care what they say.

[Eki]

So do handcuffs.
So does being locked in a cell.
So does being asked questions by your captors!
So does listening to Celine Dion.

Are those torture also?

Ok Celine Dion is but the others aren't!
The three first are often necessary if you want to detain a prisoner and ask him questions. Listening to Celine Dion, waterboarding, electrocuting or ripping off fingernails aren't. They are unnecessary pain, ie. torture.

[anthonyvop]

The three first are often necessary if you want to detain a prisoner and ask him questions. Listening to Celine Dion, waterboarding, electrocuting or ripping off fingernails aren't. They are unnecessary pain, ie. torture.

Waterboarding causes no pain.

[Daniel]

Waterboarding causes no pain.
So if I locked you up in a room with no light away from your family but gave you food then that wouldn't be torture if I was doing it to get you to give me information.........

[BDunnell]

Saves lives!
Quite possibly yours.

Thankfully, some of us don't live in a constant state of fear of terrorism and don't let ourselves become dominated by the notion that we are under threat.

[TOgoFASTER]

Tampa isn't south Florida and I don't care what they say.

You mistook sloth for south. :)

[anthonyvop]

So if I locked you up in a room with no light away from your family but gave you food then that wouldn't be torture if I was doing it to get you to give me information.........

Nope. Uncomfortable, Upsetting, unpleasant, but not torture.

[Eki]

Waterboarding causes no pain.
How do you know?

I'd like to see Bush and Cheny waterboarded and then asked what does it feel like.

[anthonyvop]

How do you know?

I'd like to see Bush and Cheny waterboarded and then asked what does it feel like.
EKI,

Please read through the thread then you will know how do I know.

[TOgoFASTER]

http://www.military.com/news/article/gitmo-tactics-tied-to-chinese-torture.html

[donKey jote]

http://www.military.com/news/article/gitmo-tactics-tied-to-chinese-torture.html

TOgoFaster,
Word to the wise. Never use military.com as part of yoru arguement when debating a donkey. :laugh:


it's not torture, it´s a "Communist Coercive Method for Eliciting Individual Compliance." :eek: :D :p : :rolleyes:

/donks/

[TOgoFASTER]

Thanks for the advice. :D

[SOD]

speaking of Cuba, looks like anti-Castro people are more interested in pocketing the USA federal cash for themselves than freeing the 11 million political prisioners on the Island.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/612979.html

oops, there goes you're tenure!

[Eki]

http://www.military.com/news/article/gitmo-tactics-tied-to-chinese-torture.html

That just proved that Koreans and Chinese didn't torture Americans in the Korean War. If it's not torture when the Americans use those methods, it can't be torture when the North-Koreans and Chinese use them. It's just simple logic.

[BDunnell]

http://www.military.com/news/article/gitmo-tactics-tied-to-chinese-torture.html

That just proved that Koreans and Chinese didn't torture Americans in the Korean War. If it's not torture when the Americans use those methods, it can't be torture when the North-Koreans and Chinese use them. It's just simple logic.

Or, indeed, the concept mentioned earlier in the thread called 'turture', which sounds like torture carried out by turtles.

[TOgoFASTER]

speaking of Cuba, looks like anti-Castro people are more interested in pocketing the USA federal cash for themselves than freeing the 11 million political prisioners on the Island.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/612979.html

oops, there goes you're tenure!


Nice find.
Wonder what the total aid package comes to over the years?
Should have been enough to able to buy the whole island by now and reopened the casios etc.
Interesting question # 2 would be what happened to all the rest of the money? And who are 'successful' Miami businessmen because of it.

[Garry Walker]

Torturing terrorists can sometimes be a for a good cause. If that needs to be done to achieve something, why not? I don`t mind at all.

[airshifter]

Like what? Something worse than water boarding? Not a good way to justify an opinion.

Also apply simulated drowning to Part II)1)a) of that reservation. Under that understanding, water boarding constitutes torture.



You're not raising the bar very high when you compare a countries judicial system to Indonesia's. Everyone knows that.


The physical aspects of waterboarding are very minimal. We had to do worse to people during water survival training to make them overcome fear of water in their face in the form of spray. In a physical sense, it's harmless. It's simply a matter of most people being uncomfortable with it, and fearful of it.

During various phases of water survival traiing, people are taking to the edge of actual drowning to learn how to remain calm in such situations. If people were actually being drowned during waterboarding I could see the problem, but in reality they aren't even close.

[Eki]

If people were actually being drowned during waterboarding I could see the problem, but in reality they aren't even close.
But the prisoners don't know they aren't being drowned, soldiers in military training do know. I'm quite sure a US soldier would feel a bit different if he was waterboarded by al Qaeda members instead of his own comrades.

[Roamy]

But the prisoners don't know they aren't being drowned, soldiers in military training do know. I'm quite sure a US soldier would feel a bit different if he was waterboarded by al Qaeda members instead of his own comrades.

He would probably be thankful he had his freaking head