What is currently best - WRC or IRC

[c4]

I am currently conducting a poll, on my blog, to find out what people think is the best championship currently in rallying. It is totally unscientific and I have only included seven championships to narrow things down a bit. I know many peoples favourites aren't included but it is really designed to be a fight between the WRC and IRC.

The interesting thing is that the WRC and IRC are very close in the votes, with the IRC just edging it at the minute.


Interested to hear what people think is the best. :)


http://rallybuzz.stagetimes.com/vote-best-rally-championship-poll-wrc-irc/

[jso1985]

while IRC apparently gives a better spectacle than WRC, ask any IRC driver if they would take a top WRC ride, I bet 100% would answer yes.

so it's like comparing GP2 with F1 or NASCAR Nationwide with NASCAR Sprint.
while the "lesser" series might give better events, the top one is still the top on where almost everyone is whishing to go to.

So basically not much point in comparing.

[tmx]

I don't think the two championship are in competition with each other. They are different formulas. The cars in IRC is more about revolutions and the WRC cars are more about torque. It runs a bit differently and the challenges are a bit different due to the length.

It depends on what you mean by best. Right now I'm impressed with the IRC races, though they are a two days event, the times classification in the end are much closer that WRC, which must means to me, more competition.

[AndyRAC]

It' s like comparing Moto GP vs World Superbikes. One is the 'Blue Riband' but the other one probably has more action.
WRC is were everyone wants to be, while the other is more cost effective and probably more exciting.

[N.O.T]

well all the best drivers are currently in the WRC most of the drivers in IRC are second class or local heroes who never did it in the big league..... IRC is sure more fun to watch right now if you are interested in battles and spectacle but if you want to see real driving then its the wrc.

[Tomi]

WRC and by far, better drivers, faster cars, better tv coverage too, even there was much talk about it before the challenge started.
IRC is a good series for those who dont aim to the top of the sport or never really made the top but still want to drive.

[RS]

WRC obviously has more prestige and the cars are more powerful but the competition is closer in IRC, the cars are better to watch (and listen to) and the choice of events are a bit nicer.

I find WRC so bland these days; next event two weeks later, same things happen, same three drivers fighting out for victory...

I also dispute that the level of drivers in WRC is much higher, I think we discussed that on another thread somewhere already. The very cream of the crop in WRC are surely better, but there are also many mediocre drivers in WRC teams (if you count M2 teams) who would probably struggle in IRC. I am not even convinced that Hirvonen could win the IRC title with it's fairly heavy tarmac bias.

I'd also dispute that IRC is only "good for people who don't aim for the top or who never really made it to the top". It surely is a better alternative than pWRC or jWRC for upcoming drivers.

[Tomi]

I'd also dispute that IRC is only "good for people who don't aim for the top or who never really made it to the top". It surely is a better alternative than pWRC or jWRC for upcoming drivers.

In what way?

[RS]

In what way?

Look at the championship standings in either series, they are a joke.

They might be ok for making pace notes, but then surely pacenotes are quite different if you are diving a WRCar to an S1600?

Surely it is better for an up and coming driver to have some real competition to sharpen his driving skills?

[Tomi]

Look at the championship standings in either series, they are a joke.

They might be ok for making pace notes, but then surely pacenotes are quite different if you are diving a WRCar to an S1600?

Surely it is better for an up and coming driver to have some real competition to sharpen his driving skills?

Championship standings has nothing to do with it, how much real competition did Hänninen have in the Russian round? I think he has had much more in every PWRC event this year.

[RS]

Championship standings has nothing to do with it, how much real competition did Hänninen have in the Russian round? I think he has had much more in every PWRC event this year.

Haninen only drove 2 pWRC events this year as far as I can see?

To be fair, Sweden was very good, but he looked pretty dominant in Acropolis on stage times at least.

Juho's performance in Russia was great, but don't forget he also drove IRC in Portugal and was nothing special there.

Both JWRC and PWRC seem too much about endurance though, there seem to be a lot of retirements and the gaps in JWRC especially are huge by the end of the rallies (like tens of minutes)

[Tomi]

Juho's performance in Russia was great, but don't forget he also drove IRC in Portugal and was nothing special there.

In Portugal he did drive a GrN car, I dont remember how he did against other GrN cars, but the good thing is that he can drive where he wants or when he is asked by different teams to drive, can Alen do the same, or does he have to be happy with the seat time Fiat gives him? in a phase of the carreer where seat time is the most important.

[RS]

In Portugal he did drive a GrN car, I dont remember how he did against other GrN cars, but the good thing is that he can drive where he wants or when he is asked by different teams to drive, can Alen do the same, or does he have to be happy with the seat time Fiat gives him? in a phase of the carreer where seat time is the most important.

Juho did pretty good vs. the other Grp N drivers in Portugal but he was a long way off the pace of the S2000 cars if you look at the stage times. Had he been in an S2000 there he would surely have been closer to the front, but the gaps are big enough to suggest he would not have dominated.

Anyhow, there is no doubting Haninen's talent... Regarding Alen, you have a very good point, but this is a matter of his contract with Fiat and not IRC. I thought Alen would have performed better so far this year than he has and things aren't likely to get a lot better on his next few events although they will be a great opportunity to practice his tarmac driving skills :)

[jparker]

N.O.T 03:43 14th Jul 08
well all the best drivers are currently in the WRC most of the drivers in IRC are second class or local heroes who never did it in the big league...
I don't buy this for a second. How many drivers are you talking about? 3?
How can you compare driving skils when the machinery is totally different. Having few guys driving cars unreachable for the rest is hardly any base for comparison.

[Wim_Impreza]

WRC and by far, better drivers, faster cars, better tv coverage too, even there was much talk about it before the challenge started.
IRC is a good series for those who dont aim to the top of the sport or never really made the top but still want to drive.

I agree.

In IRC Peugeot is too dominating and Group N cars don't have a chance for a good position. It is also horrible that they never spend one sentence about marques who are not inscribed. S2000's are for me so boring, when they come out a small corner, they haven't much accelaration and they have not much spectacle.

[bluuford]

In my mind IRC is trying to do some things better than WRC, which is marketing and they are quite successful in some areas. Many people are saying the IRC, good thing, very intense competition and etc. For me it smells like marketing story. So, usually I try to use very simple statistics to prove that there is not much difference in competition. I did it in a following way.

I took all four IRC events that have taken place in 2008 and their final overall top 10 standings.
For comparison I made some pairs with little bit similar wrc events. pairs were:
IRCTurkey-WRCTurkey2007;
IRCPortugal-WRCPortugal2007;
IRCYrpes-WRCGermany2007;
IRCRussia-WRCSardegna2008.
Next I took account the fact that WRC events are much longer and therefore I took the standings that were after about same long driving (written behind the first driver hh:min).
here are the results (Sorry about the abbreviations):
IRC standings:
Tur ------- Por ------ Belg ------ Rus
1) ros 2:25 - ros 2:57 - loi 2:45 - han 2:14
2) voi 0.23 - jan 0.46 - voi 0.59 - al 2.11
3) ale 1.27 - voi 1.38 - ros 1.27 - bas 2.44
4) ren 2.12 - bass 2.19 - cas 1.35 - loi 3.29
5) jan 2.14 - juh 2.21 - snj 1.44 - voi 5.31
6) sol 2.24 - bru 3.11 - bas 3.22 - jan 6.54
7) isik 4.47 - 7 3.51 - vand 4.44 - tira 9.03
8) loi 4.48 - aig 8.1 - brui 6.19 - sim 10.42
9) yag 10.29 - per 10.46 - liet 6.21 - x 17.07
10)kara 10.38 - lop 10.57 - aq 7.42 - xx 17.26

WRC standings:
Tur ------ Por ------ Ger ------ Sard
1) hirv 2.37 - loe 3.01 - loe 2.48 - loe 2.16
2) latv 02.9 - gro 0.40 - gro 0.38 - hirv 0.42
3) gal 05.2 - hir 1.57 - duv 0.50 - lat 0.54
4) loe 13.7 - sol 2.1 - hir 0.56 - sor 0.56
5) sol 45.4 - sor 3.59 - kop 2.49 - gal 1.15
6) sol 1.34 - lat 4.5 - gard 2.51 - atk 1.56
7) sor 1.51 - solb 6.49 - sol 3.07 - solb 3.18
8) wil 2.09 - carls 6.56 - pon 4.16 - aava 3.24
9) raut 4.01 - galli 8.12 - lat 4.54 - gard 4.12
10)vill 4.16 - stoh 11.2 - atk 8.5 - and 4.13

You can see that in most cases the competition in WRC is muc, much, much more tighter. So, nice marketing trick:-) Or do you have any better statistics?
Yes I know that there are some weak spots in my methods, but it is the best I could :-)

[Tomi]

I agree. It is also horrible that they never spend one sentence about marques who are not inscribed.

I noticed that too not a single mention about the russian guy who did drive well. (LOL, I had to re-check the results, if the guy was excluded or something).
The coverage else was quite crap too, much lousier than what we here in Finland get from the WRC.

What comes to the car makes, the idea is to build better cars than the competitor has, it has always been in rally that some cars are stronger than others, it does not change until everyone drives same cars.

[jparker]

To say one is better, you need many to compare. Claming one is the best by restrictig other competitors is like buying yourself rally fame.
Currently IRC is testig driver's skills, WRC is testing ability to cheet, to survive long stages with crap tyres, quickly changing wheels. On other hand, Citroen are testing how long Fins will suffer before giving up on the World title. It's kind of entertaining, but that's not rallying.

[Tomi]

To say one is better, you need many to compare. Claming one is the best by restrictig other competitors is like buying yourself rally fame.
Currently IRC is testig driver's skills, WRC is testing ability to cheet, to survive long stages with crap tyres, quickly changing wheels. On other hand, Citroen are testing how long Fins will suffer before giving up on the World title. It's kind of entertaining, but that's not rallying.

as usual complete bull, for once can you back up something you say, or is the wind moving your lips again.

[MikeD]

I am pretty surprised to see the current results in the poll (fun idea btw C4).

41% for WRC and 31% for IRC. It's simply beyond me that anybody prefers IRC. Watching Freddy Loix dominating a rally in IRC (Ypres) just tell the whole story about the quality of drivers in that series.

I would pick WRC anyday, anytime ... like I pick F1 and MotoGP because that is where the best in the world are. Watching second class drivers/riders is never good enough for me.

[MikeD]

To say one is better, you need many to compare. Claming one is the best by restrictig other competitors is like buying yourself rally fame.
Currently IRC is testig driver's skills, WRC is testing ability to cheet, to survive long stages with crap tyres, quickly changing wheels. On other hand, Citroen are testing how long Fins will suffer before giving up on the World title. It's kind of entertaining, but that's not rallying.

What a load of BS!

[jparker]

@Tomi: I guess it's beyond you why many car makers are gearing up to join IRC, and nobody for WRC.

[Tomi]

@Tomi: I guess it's beyond you why many car makers are gearing up to join IRC, and nobody for WRC.

To my knowledge, some of cars makes that now drives in IRC (Fiat, Peugeot too if Citroen stops) will propably join the WRC after the new rules about the cars comes. Also I think that there will be next year several S2000 cars in PWRC if they get them more reliable, at the moment its no idea to use S2000 there, too fragile car.
About how many makes will join IRC I dont know, and actually it is quite irrelevant.

[DonJippo]

@Tomi: I guess it's beyond you why many car makers are gearing up to join IRC, and nobody for WRC.

Please name one that is gearing up to join IRC? And I mean as a proper works team effort not a single cash payment to series promoter as an point scoring fee.

[jparker]

DonJippo 09:05 14th Jul 08
Please name one that is gearing up to join IRC? And I mean as a proper works team effort not a single cash payment to series promoter as an point scoring fee
Good point. I guess they are waiting to see the new WRC rules. But the cars are out there, proper work teams or not, they will continue to race, and that's what matters.

[koko0703]

I'll be honest. I don't watch or follow IRC, so I can't compare the two. But I like WRC, and that's why I follow WRC and come to this forum everyday :D

[feresc13]

IMO the best cars and probably the best drivers are in the WRC, but the most competetive, and then most exciting championship, is the IRC. So my answer depends on the point of view

[SubaruNorway]

Just watched the IRC from Russia and it was pretty horrible to be honest. Day1 had no car sound, just inboard audio put over everything else.

It doesn't apeal to me at all really. I find a series like the ARC which has the same cars with mixed S2000 and Group N much more enjoyable to watch.

Think the IRC could have been much better if North One did the production.

[Simmi]

They are both average series not in the best of strength and both with huge flaws. The concept of there being more companies interested in S2000/IRC seems like a bit of a myth to be honest. All I see is that has any weight or money behind it is Peugeot and Abarth.

[jparker]

To my knowledge, some of cars makes that now drives in IRC (Fiat, Peugeot too if Citroen stops) will propably join the WRC after the new rules about the cars comes. Also I think that there will be next year several S2000 cars in PWRC if they get them more reliable, at the moment its no idea to use S2000 there, too fragile car.
About how many makes will join IRC I dont know, and actually it is quite irrelevant.
And your knowledge about Fiat and Pug comes from where?

[RS]

Watching Freddy Loix dominating a rally in IRC (Ypres) just tell the whole story about the quality of drivers in that series.

You have to remember that Freddy was driving the best car on his home rally, which is quite a specialist one.


Watching second class drivers/riders is never good enough for me.

So what are you going to do when Loeb retires? :D

[Tomi]

And your knowledge about Fiat and Pug comes from where?

Different sourses, but about PSA its still depends on a few things.

[RS]

In my mind IRC is trying to do some things better than WRC, which is marketing and they are quite successful in some areas. Many people are saying the IRC, good thing, very intense competition and etc. For me it smells like marketing story. So, usually I try to use very simple statistics to prove that there is not much difference in competition. I did it in a following way.

I took all four IRC events that have taken place in 2008 and their final overall top 10 standings.
For comparison I made some pairs with little bit similar wrc events. pairs were:
IRCTurkey-WRCTurkey2007;
IRCPortugal-WRCPortugal2007;
IRCYrpes-WRCGermany2007;
IRCRussia-WRCSardegna2008.
Next I took account the fact that WRC events are much longer and therefore I took the standings that were after about same long driving (written behind the first driver hh:min).
here are the results (Sorry about the abbreviations):
IRC standings:
Tur ------- Por ------ Belg ------ Rus
1) ros 2:25 - ros 2:57 - loi 2:45 - han 2:14
2) voi 0.23 - jan 0.46 - voi 0.59 - al 2.11
3) ale 1.27 - voi 1.38 - ros 1.27 - bas 2.44
4) ren 2.12 - bass 2.19 - cas 1.35 - loi 3.29
5) jan 2.14 - juh 2.21 - snj 1.44 - voi 5.31
6) sol 2.24 - bru 3.11 - bas 3.22 - jan 6.54
7) isik 4.47 - 7 3.51 - vand 4.44 - tira 9.03
8) loi 4.48 - aig 8.1 - brui 6.19 - sim 10.42
9) yag 10.29 - per 10.46 - liet 6.21 - x 17.07
10)kara 10.38 - lop 10.57 - aq 7.42 - xx 17.26

WRC standings:
Tur ------ Por ------ Ger ------ Sard
1) hirv 2.37 - loe 3.01 - loe 2.48 - loe 2.16
2) latv 02.9 - gro 0.40 - gro 0.38 - hirv 0.42
3) gal 05.2 - hir 1.57 - duv 0.50 - lat 0.54
4) loe 13.7 - sol 2.1 - hir 0.56 - sor 0.56
5) sol 45.4 - sor 3.59 - kop 2.49 - gal 1.15
6) sol 1.34 - lat 4.5 - gard 2.51 - atk 1.56
7) sor 1.51 - solb 6.49 - sol 3.07 - solb 3.18
8) wil 2.09 - carls 6.56 - pon 4.16 - aava 3.24
9) raut 4.01 - galli 8.12 - lat 4.54 - gard 4.12
10)vill 4.16 - stoh 11.2 - atk 8.5 - and 4.13

You can see that in most cases the competition in WRC is muc, much, much more tighter. So, nice marketing trick:-) Or do you have any better statistics?
Yes I know that there are some weak spots in my methods, but it is the best I could :-)

This is quite interesting but you perhaps need to look at some WRC events from 2008 more as this series has suffered a bit of a decline in competitiveness this year.

I think the impression of the closeness of competition in IRC (which I also believe) is because you arrive at any given event not knowing who is going to win or what the podium is going to be. In WRC there are three guys, then the rest....

[Roy]

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/wrc/news/166070-0/malcolm_wilson_-_ford_qa_-_exclusive.html
Malcolm Wilson at Crash.net over IRC:


Crash.net:
What do you think of the IRC?

MW:
"There is obviously no real manufacturer in it. But it is a good formula and that is obviously the basis of our next future World Rally Car, which is great from a Ford point of view because it does open up the possibilities. It is a market that we have not been in before. It opens up another sales avenue."

Crash.net:
Could you ever see the IRC rivalling the WRC?

MW:
No I don't think so. It is a totally different category with different types of events. Also the way that the FIA is going now with the World Rally Championship and the fact there is going to be a global promoter hopefully announced in the not too distant future, that carries the weight of what the manufacturers and everybody are looking for.

[Raven]

For me WRC is boring right now, this serie was killed when p206wrc entered the stage. That was the time when I switched the tv off and preffered to watch paint dry. Too much electronics, too liitle spectacle...

I follow (and always followed) ERC, IRC and national championships right now. It's far more fun.

Oh, and how many drivers in WRC are first class? Three, maybe four?

[Roy]

I follow WRC. IRC is a little boring IMO. To slow cars, not big names (= old rally drivers and young guns.) Only good thing is the beauty of the cars. I like the Fiat/abarth. 207 is nice too.
I prefer WRC because the speed and professionalism. WRC events are longer competitive kilometres. It is much more in comparison of IRC.

[Tomi]

Oh, and how many drivers in WRC are first class? Three, maybe four?

Hey thats 4 more than in all the other series you mentined, not bad.

[WRC1]

Hey thats 4 more than in all the other series you mentined, not bad.

:up: :up: :up:

hänninen was by far the fastest man in russia (in his first run in s2000)

in wrc he is not even in pwrc the absolut best....

reg



wrc1

[RS]

For me WRC is boring right now, this serie was killed when p206wrc entered the stage. That was the time when I switched the tv off and preffered to watch paint dry. Too much electronics, too liitle spectacle...

I follow (and always followed) ERC, IRC and national championships right now. It's far more fun.

Oh, and how many drivers in WRC are first class? Three, maybe four?

Don't turn your TV back on yet Raven, in comparison to a Focus, the 206 is exhilerating.

For me, the power delivery of the modern WRCars is too linear, there is no agression to them. They may have 300BHP+ and 600NM but it just doesn't look it. I honestly think, to the average man in the street watching on TV, S2000 cars will look at least as fast, if not faster than a WRCar. An illusion probably helped by the sound. Latest Focus or Impreza sounds like granny driving to the shops with a broken exhaust.

And how many WRC drivers are first class? Well I think right now Loeb is in a class of his own, so the answer is one. Similar to the Schumacher era of F1.

[RS]

:up: :up: :up:

hänninen was by far the fastest man in russia (in his first run in s2000)

in wrc he is not even in pwrc the absolut best....

reg



wrc1


Hanninen is undoubtedly a talent and was fantastic in Russia but I doubt he would win the IRC if he were doing a full season (too much tarmac where he has little experience, and Russia suits the Finns more than most IRC runners)

I believe he also won on his pWRC debut?

[Tomi]

Hanninen is undoubtedly a talent and was fantastic in Russia but I doubt he would win the IRC if he were doing a full season (too much tarmac where he has little experience, and Russia suits the Finns more than most IRC runners)

I believe he also won on his pWRC debut?

Well his goal propably is somewhere else that IRC.

[c4]

The IRC, IMHO, is starting to provide a relatively healthy alternative to the currently lacklustre WRC, but will this only be short term?

I notice Monte Carlo organisers are pleading for media coverage next year
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69162




Poll update; WRC leading on 45% while the IRC has 30% of the votes
http://rallybuzz.stagetimes.com/vote-best-rally-championship-poll-wrc-irc/

[Tomi]

The IRC, IMHO, is starting to provide a relatively healthy alternative to the currently lacklustre WRC, but will this only be short term?

It depends how long time eurosport is interested, when IRC started i remember that some people spoke about several hours coverage/event, well I dont think its true really, the coverage is not very good, and a big part is from the service park.

[AndyRAC]

The IRC, IMHO, is starting to provide a relatively healthy alternative to the currently lacklustre WRC, but will this only be short term?

It depends how long time eurosport is interested, when IRC started i remember that some people spoke about several hours coverage/event, well I dont think its true really, the coverage is not very good, and a big part is from the service park.

As I've just had satellite TV installed, I watched the coverage of Rally Russia on Eurosport. To be quite frank the TV coverage was awful - you couldn't really hear the cars as the voice over was too loud! And I thought the WRC coverage was bad. Not good at all.

[Finni]

in wrc he is not even in pwrc the absolut best....


Hänninen is quite clearly the best pwrc driver at the moment. He is not leading the series just because in Greece his car suffered from technical problems as almost all other cars as well.

I guess that Hänninen has won 50-80% of stages he has done this year pwrc.

In my view Hänninen is the most promising young finn. Give that guy proper wrc and he is at the top level after one year (like Latvala). Last year he was already beating stage times of H. Solberg and likes with private Mitsubishi wrc.

One interesting feature in Hänninen is that he has never retired the rally due to crash (according to Chris Biewer). He has suffered few incidents but has never left the rally due to crash.

[Finni]

Jean-Pierre Nicolas said: “It’s been another closelyfought
rally, in which we at Eurosport Events have been very happy to seef the emergence of
an exciting new talent in the shape of Juho Hanninen. He seems set to be the latest in the
long line of Finns that have lifted the profile of the sport, and we hope to see him out on the
IRC again soon.”

[Tomi]

He for sure has big potential, what never stops to amaze me is that even the events are new he is on the pace right away.
Hopefully he will get a WRC for a few events next year, a Citroen or Ford would be good.

[Raven]

Belive me, put Latvala in S2000 car and he will be beaten by Rossetti. Of course in opposite direction is the same situation.
If a driver is in WRC that doesn't mean he is fast, in 80% of cases he has money and is average.

In other series that is not so obvious.

I can see very silly comments here, how you can compare series by length of their tv coverage? VERY BIG LOL


Don't turn your TV back on yet Raven, in comparison to a Focus, the 206 is exhilerating.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
Don't wory, the paint is not dry enough yet! :D :D

Ok, I'm going back to ERC section, it's a miracle I wrote anything here!

[DonJippo]

I can see very silly comments here, how you can compare series by length of their tv coverage? VERY BIG LOL

In the beginning IRC promised to have 8 hours worth of coverage from every event on Eurosport, ofcourse they forgot to tell that this 8 hours includes all re-runs and Eurosport Apac as well but if you are happy with this then by all means. It just happens to be that a good media and especially TV coverage is a must in modern world for succesfull series and if the current coverage is any indication of the overall quality of IRC then it won't take long before it's gone by the wind...

[tmx]

To be quite frank the TV coverage was awful - you couldn't really hear the cars as the voice over was too loud! And I thought the WRC coverage was bad.

So both IRC and WRC are boring then, that settled that.

[MikeD]

You have to remember that Freddy was driving the best car on his home rally, which is quite a specialist one.

I know, but if the Ypres rally had Loeb, Hirvonen, Latvala, Sordo, P.Solberg, Galli etc. then Loix wouldn't stand a chance of winning it. That's my main problem with the IRC. The drivers simply aren't world class, and I want to see the best.
I only watch it from time to time to have a look at the beautiful Abarth cars.




So what are you going to do when Loeb retires? :D

I'll still watch as much WRC. Maybe support Sordo or Ogier if he proves to be really good. I would still love to see Loeb win a drivers title for Ford though.

[wwbroe]

I know, but if the Ypres rally had Loeb, Hirvonen, Latvala, Sordo, P.Solberg, Galli etc. then Loix wouldn't stand a chance of winning it. That's my main problem with the IRC. The drivers simply aren't world class, and I want to see the best.

From all the drivers you are mentioning, i am sure that only Loeb and maybe Sordo could fight for victory. The rest wouldn't make anything in Ypres as they are just not fast enough on asfalt, ans certainly not on the asfalt of Ypres stages. It is a very specific event where not to many drivers would stand a chance if Loix don't have problems.

[HaCo]

I know, but if the Ypres rally had Loeb, Hirvonen, Latvala, Sordo, P.Solberg, Galli etc. then Loix wouldn't stand a chance of winning it. That's my main problem with the IRC. The drivers simply aren't world class, and I want to see the best.
I only watch it from time to time to have a look at the beautiful Abarth cars.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Don't forget that the other fast Belgian driver, Duval, was kicked his ass by Loix in the Condroz rally the first day. With kicked ass I mean he was a little bit faster. Now Duval happens to be the only driver who could match the speed on asphalt of Loeb and even beat him (I'm looking forward to Germany).
Loix is a topclass driver, as are some others in IRC. So don't put them on the 'not-world-class-shelf', just because they don't have the money to pay the 'world-class' drive. There are BTW more non-world-class drivers in the WRC then there are of the world-class type...

Now to evaluate your list, on tarmac Loix is certainly faster than Galli, P Solberg, Hirvonen and Latvala. For sure Basso, Vouilloz, Rosetti, Kopecky are as fast or a bit faster/slower than Loix, so imagine what a great competition on an asfalt we would have, if they could all pay the drive.

Telling IRC is for 'slower' drivers is easy talk. I hope we will see Loeb in Monte next year, in a C2 S1600, next to guys like Kris Meeke and Guy Wilks in a topclass FWD car. Let's see who's ass will be kicked then. ;)

[Finni]

Now to evaluate your list, on tarmac Loix is certainly faster than Galli, P Solberg, Hirvonen and Latvala.

That's brave statement. In Peugeot Loix was trashed by Grönholm in asphalt. In normal conditions he was 1 sec/km slower than Grönholm. Only in spesific Belgium event could Loix challenge drivers you mentioned.

[wwbroe]

That's brave statement. In Peugeot Loix was trashed by Grönholm in asphalt. In normal conditions he was 1 sec/km slower than Grönholm. Only in spesific Belgium event could Loix challenge drivers you mentioned.

The time that Loix was in Peugeot 307, it was only in Monte Carlo that he had the opportunity to have the same car as Gronholm. He was sacked by Peugeot after only three events, because he was complaining about the car. The same complaints that later on were proven by other drivers.
The time they put him back in the car (like in Deutschland) he didn't have a decent car, it was stupid Provera with his cigar that only supported Gronholm. Remember also what happened with Carlsson and Bengue in this bul second car. I remember very well the time that Gronholm and Loix were both in Toyota Celica's in Bianchi Rally, and Gronholm didn't touch any wood, he was loosing about a second each kilometer against Loix.
The time he was driving with Mitsu together with Makinen it was Finnish maffia who blocked his career. Let's not make a joke off it, i liked Gronholm very much as a driver but i am very sure that Loix can equal him on asfalt.
He is not as talented as Duval but is for more PR-friendly and still very fast on asfalt. He could not match with the finnisch drivers on gravel, but the times he had a decent car, he did rather well. I rest my case now. :D

[Tomi]

[quote="wwbroe"] it was Finnish maffia who blocked his career./QUOTE]

Who actually is this maffia, who has so much power that they can block someones carreer? Im sure you dont mean Mitsu testdriver.

[HaCo]

If Loix would have had the same freedom as he had with Toyota. The unfortunate Richard Burns would probably be able to tell us more about the time with Mitsu next to Makinnen. Others can tell a lot about the 307 as well, of course Mr Gronholm himself.

Of course, these are just reasons to show why Loix never made it to the top and you're right, he didn't. But tell that he is a second slower than Gronholm every km on asphalt is far out of boundaries. Who knows Gronholm will do the same as Auriol does, pick up an S2000 and challenge the IRC guys. Both Gronholm and Auriol think the IRC is a lot more fun and relaxed than the 'almost F1' WRC.

Anyway, Gronholm is no longer in WRC. So he doesn't count any more in the 'world class drivers of WRC' shelf, although he is a TOP driver. So how many 'top class WRC' drivers are there left and do they bring more excitement than IRC?

I hope so, cause the more, the better. I'm happy there are 2 championships so we have to luxury to pick one or even both which I'm doing right now. :)

[DonJippo]

Both Gronholm and Auriol think the IRC is a lot more fun and relaxed than the 'almost F1' WRC.

And you have something to back this up?

[DonJippo]

The time he was driving with Mitsu together with Makinen it was Finnish maffia who blocked his career.

I thought this bs was allready past us :rolleyes:

[Tomi]

If Loix would have had the same freedom as he had with Toyota. The unfortunate Richard Burns would probably be able to tell us more about the time with Mitsu next to Makinnen. Others can tell a lot about the 307 as well, of course Mr Gronholm himself.

Of course, these are just reasons to show why Loix never made it to the top and you're right, he didn't. But tell that he is a second slower than Gronholm every km on asphalt is far out of boundaries. Who knows Gronholm will do the same as Auriol does, pick up an S2000 and challenge the IRC guys. Both Gronholm and Auriol think the IRC is a lot more fun and relaxed than the 'almost F1' WRC.

Anyway, Gronholm is no longer in WRC. So he doesn't count any more in the 'world class drivers of WRC' shelf, although he is a TOP driver. So how many 'top class WRC' drivers are there left and do they bring more excitement than IRC?

I hope so, cause the more, the better. I'm happy there are 2 championships so we have to luxury to pick one or even both which I'm doing right now. :)

Why dont you tell, instead of running behind the back of a dead driver, you are the one who make the accusations!

[Wim_Impreza]

I am also a Belgian and I must say that I was never impressed about Loix in the Mitsu period. He made too much mistakes and was never able to fight for the victory in that years. In the Hyundai, he showed some speed and especially in Sweden with a broken feet.

It is a shame that a real rally legend as Grönholm is compared by Loix, who has never won a rally in the WRC. Loix is also not so fast as I expected in IRC this year. Last year, it was the car in IRC, in Condroz he retired without a good reason.

[wwbroe]

Why dont you tell, instead of running behind the back of a dead driver, you are the one who make the accusations!

Well, the former Mitsu testdriver certainly had something to do with it, together with a certain manager that you Finn's know certainly very well. He is the one that makes or brakes careers. But to me it is not all that important anymore, i enjoy IRC as i do enjoy WRC, alltough i enjoyed the WRC a lot more in the "old" days. That is the main reason that i am visiting more IRC events now, instead off WRC events. I am still going but not as much as i used to be. For me it is not all that important, i was just reacting on something Finny wrote about Loix, thats all.

[Tomi]

Well, the former Mitsu testdriver certainly had something to do with it, together with a certain manager that you Finn's know certainly very well. He is the one that makes or brakes careers. But to me it is not all that important anymore, i enjoy IRC as i do enjoy WRC, alltough i enjoyed the WRC a lot more in the "old" days. That is the main reason that i am visiting more IRC events now, instead off WRC events. I am still going but not as much as i used to be. For me it is not all that important, i was just reacting on something Finny wrote about Loix, thats all.

Again you refer to that Lampi and Jouhki has done something, but not what, also you could tell us what is teamboss Cowans part in this conspiracy, and the most important, what did Mitsu as a team benefit by sabotage the other driver.

[jparker]

Why did Finns started to b**t IRC right from the begining? Do they think rallying belongs to them and everything in rally has to evolve around them?
Rallying is a sport with too many different aspects, everyone is free to enjoy the parts he likes most. IRC may not be better, but it's different and it has its audience. I hope we can agree at least on that one.

[RS]

Again you refer to that Lampi and Jouhki has done something, but not what, also you could tell us what is teamboss Cowans part in this conspiracy, and the most important, what did Mitsu as a team benefit by sabotage the other driver.

I don't think there was anything malicious to it, simply the Mitsubishi was a very specific car which pretty much only Makinen ad Burns got along with. The results of McRae and Delecour were pretty awful in the post Makinen years.

It had a different transmission set up to the other WRCars and I guess Lampi knew how Makinen liked to drive so it was quite natural for the car to be developed to his taste as a world champion and not the No.2 driver.

[RS]

Why did Finns started to b**t IRC right from the begining? Do they think rallying belongs to them and everything in rally has to evolve around them?


Something to do with there being no Finnish round, few Finnish drivers and a large amount of asphalt? Of course it can't be a serious championship unless a Finn is winning!

;) Only teasing.

[Tomi]

Why did Finns started to b**t IRC right from the begining? Do they think rallying belongs to them and everything in rally has to evolve around them?
Rallying is a sport with too many different aspects, everyone is free to enjoy the parts he likes most. IRC may not be better, but it's different and it has its audience. I hope we can agree at least on that one.

Lol, no rallying I think belongs everyone, but the question was, What is currently best - WRC or IRC.

[Tomi]

I don't think there was anything malicious to it, simply the Mitsubishi was a very specific car which pretty much only Makinen ad Burns got along with. The results of McRae and Delecour were pretty awful in the post Makinen years.

It had a different transmission set up to the other WRCars and I guess Lampi knew how Makinen liked to drive so it was quite natural for the car to be developed to his taste as a world champion and not the No.2 driver.

This I have heard too, that because of the transmission there was a delay not many could cope with.

[Finni]

Yeah first poor-Freddy was trashed by Mitsu and then by Peugeot. Bad, bad manufacturers.

This thread has gone beyond smart discussion. We should probably do own thread about malicious conspracies by Peugeot and Mitsu toward poor little Freddy..

[jparker]

Tomi 02:33 17th Jul 08
Lol, no rallying I think belongs everyone, but the question was, What is currently best - WRC or IRC.
Question with no possible answer, but I asked another question and you choose not to answer. When somebody starts bashing something with no particular reason, then questions arise.

[Tomi]

When somebody starts bashing something with no particular reason, then questions arise.

What bashing?

[HaCo]

Wim, you're right. It's not 'right' to compare Gronholm with Loix, Gronholm has got very much WRC wins and even the championship. But in terms of speed, would he be much faster than Loix (1sec/km like one stated here?) and apart from Loix, so much faster than the other IRC boys? I still don't think so and I still hope one day the fast men of WRC and IRC will meet in the same type of cars on the same rally, I think that would be a great rally.
(Was Panizzi so much faster than the other IRC boys last year, in a car he helped developing, he was the WRC asphalt specialist, wasn't he?)

It's so easy to say, the drivers in IRC are just the slower WRC's ones who didn't made it (like Loix and Kopecky) to the top. But 'speed' is not the only thing that makes or brakes career.

And IF the WRC drivers are so much faster then the IRC drivers, so wath? If the the rallies are exciting and the drivers are fighting for seconds, I think it is great already.

[RS]

It's so easy to say, the drivers in IRC are just the slower WRC's ones who didn't made it (like Loix and Kopecky) to the top. But 'speed' is not the only thing that makes or brakes career.



Kopecky has shown in the last couple of years he is one of the WRCs fastest asphalt drivers, good point about Panizzi also, even if he is past his best.

For me, one of the main things that could be said in this thread is that IRC is very much "on the up" (this years driver lineup and entry lists have already been much stronger than last year. WRC is, at best, stagnant.

I am hopeful that if the new rules are allowed in, and the manufacturers wishes regarding the calendar are met, and promotion improves then it may bring in some more manufacturers which will mean drivers are hired on talent and not $$$.

[Finni]

Wim, you're right. It's not 'right' to compare Gronholm with Loix, Gronholm has got very much WRC wins and even the championship. But in terms of speed, would he be much faster than Loix (1sec/km like one stated here?)

Nobody has stated that Grönholm is one sec per/km faster than Loix on asphalt. I was just bringing Pug-time difference in order to imply that Grönholm is faster. Not saying that Grönholm would have trashed Freddy so badly in every car.

[Nikey]

Why did Finns started to b**t IRC right from the begining? Do they think rallying belongs to them and everything in rally has to evolve around them?

Yeah, we do. :D

But I for one enjoy IRC more at the moment. World Rally Championship seems to have lost its touch to "real rallying". It´s gone all too über-tech and rallyes are too alike. Damn, I wish I had been born 20 years earlier...

[pantealex]

I still don't think so and I still hope one day the fast men of WRC and IRC will meet in the same type of cars on the same rally, I think that would be a great rally.
PWRC is open to every IRC driver, welcome 2009! Winner can call him/herself World Champion! I know PWRC is B-league, but if you can´t win in B-league, don´t go to A-league!
(btw.I like S2000 cars very much, so sorry that Finland is group N mitsu country, those are boring)

[jparker]

@pantealex: PWRC (as you know very well) is gravel league, IRC is asphalt one. Two different rally cultures, it's good they can exist independently.

[Brother John]

I am also a Belgian and I must say that I was never impressed about Loix in the Mitsu period. He made too much mistakes and was never able to fight for the victory in that years. In the Hyundai, he showed some speed and especially in Sweden with a broken feet.

It is a shame that a real rally legend as Grönholm is compared by Loix, who has never won a rally in the WRC. Loix is also not so fast as I expected in IRC this year. Last year, it was the car in IRC, in Condroz he retired without a good reason.

@Wim, as a ex belgian I entirely agree. :s mokin:

[Tomi]

@Wim, as a ex belgian I entirely agree. :s mokin:

You should not have taken his struggling so seriously that you changed nationality. :)

[pantealex]

@pantealex: PWRC (as you know very well) is gravel league, IRC is asphalt one. Two different rally cultures, it's good they can exist independently.
I agree!

[DonJippo]

IRC is asphalt one.

Is not.

[N.O.T]

well out of 10 events 4 are only the gravel ones and from those china and russia are skipped by the majority of competitors whoi aim for the title so it may not be 100% asphalt but definately if you are tarmac orientaed you have bigger chances to win the title.

[RS]

well out of 10 events 4 are only the gravel ones and from those china and russia are skipped by the majority of competitors whoi aim for the title so it may not be 100% asphalt but definately if you are tarmac orientaed you have bigger chances to win the title.

At least that is a better split than PWRC's calendar.

[jso1985]

Why did Finns started to b**t IRC right from the begining? Do they think rallying belongs to them and everything in rally has to evolve around them?
Rallying is a sport with too many different aspects, everyone is free to enjoy the parts he likes most. IRC may not be better, but it's different and it has its audience. I hope we can agree at least on that one.

IRC is not worse or better, as it cannot be considered a true competition or alternative to WRC.
while compared to other more similar series, it is better than PWRC or JRC IMO

[jparker]

jso1985 23:16 18th Jul 08
IRC is not worse or better, as it cannot be considered a true competition or alternative to WRC.
Why's that?
What's your definition of "true competition"?
As a matter of fact, I hardly see any competition in WRC. PWRC maybe, but not WRC.

[Wim_Impreza]

Wim, you're right. It's not 'right' to compare Gronholm with Loix, Gronholm has got very much WRC wins and even the championship. But in terms of speed, would he be much faster than Loix (1sec/km like one stated here?) and apart from Loix, so much faster than the other IRC boys? I still don't think so and I still hope one day the fast men of WRC and IRC will meet in the same type of cars on the same rally, I think that would be a great rally.
(Was Panizzi so much faster than the other IRC boys last year, in a car he helped developing, he was the WRC asphalt specialist, wasn't he?)

It's so easy to say, the drivers in IRC are just the slower WRC's ones who didn't made it (like Loix and Kopecky) to the top. But 'speed' is not the only thing that makes or brakes career.

And IF the WRC drivers are so much faster then the IRC drivers, so wath? If the the rallies are exciting and the drivers are fighting for seconds, I think it is great already.

On asphalt, I think Grönholm is much faster than Loix, too. Don't forget that Grönholm his tarmac speed is not bad. Probably not 1 sec/km on tarmac on a normal tarmac rally and for sure not in a rally like Ypres. Panizzi was last year not top in Sanremo, but Loix was also struggling in that rally. And yes, he was the tarmac specialist in WRC. My opinion is that Kopecký has not had a real chance in WRC. I think and hope we will see him back in WRC in 2010 with the Škoda Fabia Super 2000.

[Sulland]

For me as a spectator IRC is for the moment much more fun to follow live. It is much closer btw the cars/teams and can change much more from stage to stage.

WRC has too few that can fight for victories last couple of years. That has to change somehow to pass IRC again !

[jso1985]

Why's that?
What's your definition of "true competition"?
As a matter of fact, I hardly see any competition in WRC. PWRC maybe, but not WRC.

I'm not saying there's no competition inside the IRC.

what I meant is that taking count the characteristics of the category, IRC cannot be considered an alternative to WRC but being actually a really good feeder series(or lesser series if you want to take it like that)

[HaCo]

Here a quote of Luca Rosetti after rally of Portugak '08, that answers the topic:

“The IRC, however, is
fantastic. Here in Portugal
you could honestly say any
one of 12 drivers could win –
now wouldn’t the World Rally
Championship like to be the
same!

“Okay, maybe we are not on
the same level as the Loebs
and the Gronholms of this
world, but there are so many
drivers all of whom are on a
comparable level, and that
makes for great rallying!”
From GPWeek: http://www.gpweek.com/PDF/GP010.pdf

[bluuford]

I just came from South-Estonian rally. I must say that I have not seen such a competition in IRC or in WRC like I have seen in last two Estonian rallies. Well, Aava of course won that rally by a mile in front of Rautenbach but in group N the time difference between first and 10th driver was only one minute! Well it grew a little longer on the last long stage but it was still so close that third place was decided according to the results of the first stage :-) http://www.rally.ee/?a=a009&b=6597
So, to have a nice competition you need to have many competitors. to have many competitors you need many rally fans to open the interest of sponsors. and to have many rally fans you need to create something spectacle for them. I think that very interesting is one project which collects all kind of video footages from the spectators and compiles a really nice overview of the rally. So, You can get very good idea about how different drivers drive in different conditions. So, you can see how one driver has driven captured by about 10-20 different cameraman+moments at the end of video. So, here is the link of those overview videos. If you watch it you can get better idea about what I am trying to tell you: http://www.rallyvideos.net/videod/videogalerii_est.html
The first video is about previous rally.
So, what I am thinking about is that there should be also some kind of central service that captures all the nice moments not only those few that are captured by a few official cameras.

[RS]

Many people are saying the IRC, good thing, very intense competition and etc. For me it smells like marketing story.

Take a look at the stage times and results of last weekend's Rally Madeira and perhaps reconsider your opinion :)

http://www.rallye-info.com/event_results.asp?event=481&leg=66

[racecraze]

Hello,

I saw this thread of excited title, WRC is the everyone's choice even they are newly watching people, many new people say its WRC as they watching any race. Because its the name which people know very first about race.