FIA finally announces framework for Formula 2

[Giuseppe F1]

FIA confirm new F2 series will operate an 'arrive and drive' system!!!!!!

Sounds like a glorified 'Formula Palmer Audi' to me with whichever 'manufacturer' (do they mean a 'dallara' type or 'bmw' type??) who wins the tender, taking on huge running costs:





http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69114




FIA sets out framework for Formula 2

By Simon Strang Sunday, July 13th 2008, 11:39 GMT



FIA motorhomeThe FIA's proposed Formula 2 Championship is to take the form of a one-make arrive-and-drive category, the sport's governing body has indicated after announcing on Saturday that it has launched the tender process for the series.

In a statement on the FIA's website, the governing body invited manufacturers to pitch for an exclusive three-year deal to supply the cars from 2009 onwards.

Doubts had been raised by several team principals from current feeder formulas about containing costs to the specified target figure of €200,000, but the FIA appears to have got around this by transferring the cost to the manufacturer, which would receive 20% of each car's bodywork space to advertise its brand.

"The selected tenderer will be responsible not only for the design, production and transportation of a sufficient number of race-ready and technically identical cars to each event and official testing but also for all maintenance and repair work on those cars throughout the season," the FIA said in a separate 74-page tender document.

"It will also be responsible for supplying all fuel, tyres and other consumables, all spare parts and for providing a number of technical personnel to support the competitors at events and official testing.

"It is envisaged that competitors would be responsible for the cost of replacing parts damaged as a result of racing accidents."

The successful constructor would also be responsible for producing the identical 400bhp machines, which would be supplied to teams for six tests and 10 two-day weekend events during a European-based season.

After each event the cars would be returned to the constructor and teams then draw lots to find out which chassis they receive at the next event.

Each event would include one hour of free practice, one hour of qualifying and one race of approximately 175km, although this format could change into a heats/final system if more than 26 entries are received for the series.

The FIA's proposed category, which has been seen as a direct rival to the Renault-powered GP2 Series, would allow for two-car teams. But entries would have to be for the full season rather than on a race-by-race basis.

The FIA is even considering allowing the successful vendor to include its name in the championship's title.

The governing body also indicated that the engines, the specifications of which remain undetermind other than that they need to be of a four-stroke nature, would need to be capable of lasting a full season.

"It is hoped that the cost to a competitor of competing in the championship for a calendar year - to include full participation in all official testing and events - could be in the region of €200,000 per car, though no minimum or maximum price is indicated in this tender," read the statement.

All bids must be submitted by August 29, and the successful applicant will then be notified by September 8.

[Giuseppe F1]

Presuming the normal season for single-seaters starts in March and the FIA want this up in running in 2009...............6 months to design, test, build a car and attract drivers/teams......

.......whatever Max!!

[Sleeper]

Well, unless someone wants a tie-up, this cus out all the race manufacturers like Lola and Dallara, leaving it to just the major car manufacturers, and I cant see how they would find this financially viable, the running costs for them are going to end up huge.

[Giuseppe F1]

Well, unless someone wants a tie-up, this cus out all the race manufacturers like Lola and Dallara, leaving it to just the major car manufacturers, and I cant see how they would find this financially viable, the running costs for them are going to end up huge.



Exactly -

its almost as if Max WANT no-one to tender so that the concept will die and he then wont have to admit this was all a bluff owing to his fall-out with Bernie

[Giuseppe F1]

Also 400bhp doesnt really pitch it around the Formula 2 level of todays OW racing make up (i.e. GP2, World Series, A1)

[jso1985]

LOL 200,000€ per car?

with that budget the best they're gonna get is Honda throwing some used Civics used in the BTCC...

[Knock-on]

LOL 200,000€ per car?

with that budget the best they're gonna get is Honda throwing some used Civics used in the BTCC...

I was actually thinking formula BMW :D

No, seriously. Formula BMW with a big old after market Blower bolted on could do the trick. Of course, the engines will not last a full season but it would be bloody good fun. I think I'm going to change my mind and support Max in this afterall.

Team Knock-on is back up and running chaps. I've checked my piggy bank and have about 18 euro saved so far. Anyone want to sponsor me?

[SGWilko]

I was actually thinking formula BMW :D

No, seriously. Formula BMW with a big old after market Blower bolted on could do the trick. Of course, the engines will not last a full season but it would be bloody good fun. I think I'm going to change my mind and support Max in this afterall.

Team Knock-on is back up and running chaps. I've checked my piggy bank and have about 18 euro saved so far. Anyone want to sponsor me?

Hang on Knockie, I'll get the Trouble and Strife to check down the back of the sofa, usually a few squid down there..... :laugh:

[Knock-on]

Hang on Knockie, I'll get the Trouble and Strife to check down the back of the sofa, usually a few squid down there..... :laugh:

Hey, it's Euro's so it's not like "real" money ;)

What I want to know is whether there is any qualification for this new series. If it's supposed to be a "cheap as chips" feeder series for F1, it's going to be inundated with applicants.

Now, do they have to finish above a certain place in such and such a series or is it free for all?

For £150,000, you could have grids 40 or 50 deep with anyone with a fairly well off daddy taking part.

[SGWilko]

Hey, it's Euro's so it's not like "real" money ;)

What I want to know is whether there is any qualification for this new series. If it's supposed to be a "cheap as chips" feeder series for F1, it's going to be inundated with applicants.

Now, do they have to finish above a certain place in such and such a series or is it free for all?

For £150,000, you could have grids 40 or 50 deep with anyone with a fairly well off daddy taking part.

When he thought this one up, I imagine Max looked like commissioner Dreyfuss - all nervous ticks and an inability to remain still.... ;)

[MAX_THRUST]

Max really has had the sense knocked out of him. WHY DOES EUROPE NEED ANOTHER SINGLE SEATER SERIES????

THis is not gonna happen surely...........

[Knock-on]

This is such a load of crap it's insulting. This series will never happen without the budget being increased by a factor of 10.

Let me explain.

26 cars at 200k Euro each = €5.2M or in real money, £4.15M

Now, a manufacturer has to design, produce, test, transport, maintain, repair, provide tyres, consumables and everything else to make them ready for 10 race weekends and 6 tests.

For this, he is going to receive 20% of the car for sponsors looking to invest in a Mickey Mouse formula, with no established fan base and being intimately associated with Max Mosley. Yeah, right!

But, let’s forget about designing the cars and the 1000’s of man hours that will entail.

Let us forget the 100’s of hours of simulation and building of scale models. The amount of testing and 1000’s of hours of engine bench testing to get a prototype.

Let us also forget the production costs for putting a F2 car together and the number that will have to go over D and ND testing to authorize these cars to FIA standard.

(How many £Millions are we up to?)

Let us forget about Transporting 26 Cars around the planet on Long Haul flights and the Transporters and equipment that would be necessary ( :eek: Scary costs) and let us forget about the support staff, food, hotels etc needed for each car that the “successful” tender winner would have to supply to maintain each car. I mean, to make it worthwhile, you would have Aus, Singapore, Monaco, Germany, Italy, UK, Canada, Brazil, China and Bahrain as a quick guess at a calendar?

Forget too about the 6 days of testing for each driver and also, all the Tyres, Oil, Spark plugs etc that would be got through.

In fact, let’s just look at the fuel that would be used for the tests and races for a 400 HP world class race car.

I think I’m right in saying that there is a 175 km race and 2 hours of practice. I’m not including qualifying as this may be in the practice.

Lets say that each car does 350km per weekend which equates to 3,500km over the year.

Then you have 6 days testing where you are going to put in a minimum of 50 laps in per day so lets take Silverstone as a test circuit with a length of over 5km so lets call it 5.

That’s an additional 1,500 per year making a grand total of 5000km per your MINIMUM

Again, that’s roughly 3,100 miles per driver times 26 = 80,600 miles or just race miles.

Fuel at £5 per gallon and the cars do 10 miles per gallon is £40k or 1% of the cost for the year.

I have been ultra conservative and it’s likely to be a lot more than that but you may be able to sell 5% of the cars available advertising space to BP as fuel sponsor and get Oils thrown in for free.

Come on chaps, we’re talking incidentals here. Fuel for gods sake is not supposed to be something of consequence yet 2% of the budget or 25% of your potential advertising revenue has been taken.

Go on; ask yourself how much transportation costs will be.

Lease 6 Transporters for a year to take the cars and equipment around the world. Hell, the six drivers / riggers alone would cost 40k year each so that’s £200k for their wages or another 5% of the budget without the cost of the Fuel, leasing, insurance etc for the transporters of the planes for the long haul journeys.

Actually, can anyone tell me how much Stoddy would charge to get 6 transporters from UK to Bahrain, China, Singapore, Aus, Brazil, Canada and back to the UK? £1m? More?

Well, you’re talking at least 25% of your budget and possibly more…. Much more.

And how many people to maintain and operate each car from the manufacturer. Say an engineer and technician so that’s 52 people at £50k per year or about that so that’s £2.6M or over 60% of the budget for the year?

And then we have travel and subsistence for these people. What about that?

What do you mean there’s no money left in the kitty for that? We haven’t bought the cars yet, not even designed them, and not even got the workshops, computers, nothing.

But, we still have ¾ of our advertising space left. Well, after we assign a 5% of the cars space for a Tyre sponsor, we will have 50% of 20% of space for advertising.

So for a 10% advertising area on a car, what can we sell that for?

[Roamy]

The idiot just keeps on whipping everyone in his way. This is stupid unless you get rid of some other series. Right now they should let A1 field 2 or 3 cars per country.

[V12]

I was initially excited when I first read the headline (not the actual story) about the possibility of F2 being revived, but now I hope it falls flat on its arse, and the sooner the better.

I agree with the "glorified FPA" sentiments - one-make series are bad enough but at least GP2 allows professional teams to operate independently and compete with one another, the whole centrally-prepared idea is too driver-oriented, it takes not only specialist chassis and engine builders out of the equation but also the teams that are the lifeblood of single seater racing below F1

The ONLY way F2 could work, IMO, would be as a sensibly restricted, open formula placed squarely between F1 and F3 in terms of power, cost, and technical freedom within the regulations, anything else is a farce.

[ArrowsFA1]

Plans by the FIA to make its new Formula Two championship an 'arrive-and-drive' series could negate the need for traditional racing teams, claims a number of senior figures within the sport.

Raikkonen Robertson Racing team manager: "We'd obviously have to employ mechanics and engineers, but if we can't touch the cars between races, what do they do during the week?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69145

[gravity]

"The arrive-and-drive style seems like a good idea for the drivers, but why would they need teams?" he explained.
"You'd lose any changes you make to your cars when you get a different one for the next race, and you don't know who has been maintaining the car you get. That's not an attractive thought. I think it would make more sense to run the cars centrally."



Maybe u'll end up with drivers who run their own teams? Instead of it being a lead-up for F1 drivers, maybe it'll be where all the retired drivers go to keep themselves entertained?

[inimitablestoo]

The ONLY way F2 could work, IMO, would be as a sensibly restricted, open formula placed squarely between F1 and F3 in terms of power, cost, and technical freedom within the regulations, anything else is a farce.

Hear, hear! :up: A proper battle between Dallara, Lola, Tatuus, Mygale, perhaps Epsilon Euskadi, who seem to be heading down that route, with engines of at least 2.5 litres, would be great to see. Or at the very least, a spec chassis with engine choice, or a spec engine in a variety of chassis. I'd love to see it happen, but sadly it seems unlikely any single-seater series of any note will ever set up as a multi-make series again.

Good luck to them with the arrive'n'drive format, but I remain to be convinced. However, I did notice the lack of restriction of numbers of cars, which definitely gets another :up: from me.

In fact, the domination of one-make series, particularly with Dallaras featuring strongly, leads to an interesting pub quiz question: how many current drivers have made it to Formula 1 without ever racing a Dallara? I reckon it's three: Raikkonen, Coulthard and Barrichello. I stand to be corrected.

how many current drivers have made it to Formula 1 without ever racing a Dallara? I reckon it's three: Raikkonen, Coulthard and Barrichello. I stand to be corrected.

Not sure, but what about Fernando Alonso?

Straight from Karts, he won the Formula Nissan series in 1999, but Coloni made the chassis back then, not Dallara. F3000 were Lola's when Alonso drove there in 2000.

[inimitablestoo]

Ooh, good point. I'd forgotten Dallara weren't involved in the Nissan/Renault thingy until later.

Here's a prediction: whoever gets the contract for F2, it won't be Dallara or Renault. Partly a prediction, partly a hope, if only for some sort of variety at this level.

[gloomyDAY]

http://brooklynheightsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/soapbox.jpg

€200,000, right?

[Knock-on]

http://brooklynheightsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/soapbox.jpg

€200,000, right?

:laugh:

[gravity]

^^ Racing drawers... Max might enjoy it!
Maybe they'll enforce the Hans device tho.

:D

[tsarcasm]

400bhp is also quite slow for open wheel, Max is just pouting as he and Bernie are breaking up. I wonder what Flavio thinks about all this (he still owns Mechachrome). F2 is just hotair, GP2 is proven, established and paid for, (and may already have contracts signed for the upcoming future)

[ArrowsFA1]

I guess yet another series added to an already cluttered calendar may help some drivers find a "home" while they wait in hope of an F1 seat, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see "F2" fade away.

It was a political creation, rather like Superleague Formula is a marketing creation, not one that is needed or wanted.

[Knock-on]

I guess yet another series added to an already cluttered calendar may help some drivers find a "home" while they wait in hope of an F1 seat, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see "F2" fade away.

It was a political creation, rather like Superleague Formula is a marketing creation, not one that is needed or wanted.

I cannot see anyone taking this seriously. Max might bankrole it for political reasons till he has made a point and then it will be quietly dropped (along with all the poor investors money).

Max seems to enjoy banging a big drum and then sweeping it under the carpet when the spotlights off him. What ever did happen to the Martin Brundell case ;)

[Oli_M]

Given we are talking about some pretty low budgets, should we perhaps be expecting manufacturers to be using chassis from other series (perhaps slighly modified to fit F2 engines?)...... Maybe the old Lola or Panoz chassis from ChampCar which have no use now? Or even a modified WSR chassis?

[V12]

Just read in today's Autosport that the plan is for the stock of chassis to be "painted a neutral colour" and for drivers after they "arrive" to apply their sponsors logos before removing them after the race weekend!

This is seriously starting to take the.....

[seb_sh]

I can't believe they're actually suggesting this, while it's not all bad it's pretty clear they haven't thought it through.

I'm curious if any manufacturer is going to consider this. BMW is the only one that comes to mind seeing as they already have a car and some kind of structure in place already.

But seriously, Max, nah...

[inimitablestoo]

I also see in Autosport that, contrary to what was earlier suggested, entries will be capped at 26 :( Why can't we have an open entry list any more?

(Throws hands in air in frustration, walks away from computer mumbling something about it not being like the good old days, decides to return to look up some old multi-make F3000 clips on YouTube if there are any...)

[Oli_M]

I'm curious if any manufacturer is going to consider this. BMW is the only one that comes to mind seeing as they already have a car and some kind of structure in place already.

Although, unless this is clearly going to be a new level above F-BMW (which although thats what Max is aiming at, the price range surely puts it at around F-BMW territory?) then why would they want to? 30+ cars in BMW Europe is a pretty healthy entry....

"IF" it is a level above the current F-BMW, does that mean its going to be a rival to Euro F3, World Series??

Where - REALISTICALLY - will this fit in. Because I don't see how its going to be able to be anything like on GP2 / A1GP level??

[Knock-on]

How do you decide which 26 drivers get a shot.

Hang on, it's Max pulling the strings.

It might only be 200k for the drive but how much more will a driver have to pay ;)

Not like he hasn't got history :D

[Tallgeese]

GP2 & F2 will eventually have to merge. I don't exactly see how F2 will be recieved by FOM (Formula One Management) but seeing how it oversees F1 & GP2 under FIA's own juristiction one wonders what purpose F2 is supposed to serve & how both the F1 and GP2 community will see it. One could argue that F2 is already alive in GP2 (which is really just F2 with a different name).

Works for me though, I have been trying to get into an F3 seat since the beginning of the year, & the more stepping stone options, the better :D

[Knock-on]

That's a very good point.

What calander will they get on?

FOM are likely to feck them over to get on the F1 calender making it unattractive. After all, if it's the fore runner to F1, it must expect to pay a premium ;)

So, it will become second fiddle on a WTC program or worse.

Hmmmmm, real stepping stone to F1 :laugh:

[Crank]

As everyone else I thought that they were setting up something serious, but when I read the full thing, I smelt the smoke from Max diverting the attention from himself and putting a some pressure into Bernie so he can get more money out of the new Concorde agreement...to me it looks like a GP series not run by manufacturers but by lawyers.

As for Team Knock-On...I hope I'm still in the picture boss :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

It's interesting to see news (http://www.italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=20220&cat=32) from Italy that the established Formula Master (http://www.formulamaster.net) series will become GP3 and support a number of GPs next year.

There's been little news of Max's "F2", but it seems that Bernie's GP brand is working to establish itself as the stepladder to F1 - GP3->GP2->F1.

As with GP2 and Renault, GP3 has the support of a major manufacturer (Honda) with the series champion getting an F1 test drive with Honda, and the runner up getting at GP2 test.

It all rather emphasises how redundant "F2" is, even before it is up and running!

[Knock-on]

It's interesting to see news (http://www.italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=20220&cat=32) from Italy that the established Formula Master (http://www.formulamaster.net) series will become GP3 and support a number of GPs next year.

There's been little news of Max's "F2", but it seems that Bernie's GP brand is working to establish itself as the stepladder to F1 - GP3->GP2->F1.

As with GP2 and Renault, GP3 has the support of a major manufacturer (Honda) with the series champion getting an F1 test drive with Honda, and the runner up getting at GP2 test.

It all rather emphasises how redundant "F2" is, even before it is up and running!

It was never up and running, was never likely to be up and running and never will be up and running.

Yet more BS from Max and another example of his lack of ability to perform his role.

[speeddurango]

I sort of like how FIA manage all sorts of things that their decision often stirs the internet forums. While it's true most of the time people are bit**ing about the governments it's not often the case that government is trying something new which causes the stir. But FIA is different, they're always coming up with new and innovative or whatever radical ideas that can make people instantly linked 3 words "Mad", "Max", "FIA" together. It's like they're such a efficient group of people more like a small company that is always trying new ways to strive than a governing body, it's like a miracle a governing body should work this way, I do rarely see such cases. So be it a possible way or not to work out their new formula series, my full respect goes to them already.

[harsha]

this must be one of the worst Ideas that MAD MAX has had

[ArrowsFA1]

Sounds like a glorified 'Formula Palmer Audi' to me...
Looks like you were right :p

http://www.italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=20224&cat=21

[gloomyDAY]

Looks like you were right :p

http://www.italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=20224&cat=21English version?

I need some comical relief.

[ArrowsFA1]

A rough, and brief, translation!! pino would be able to help more :s mokin:

Like from we anticipated on the 10 July, it appears that the chassis for F2 will be produced by Mygale....Italiaracing has moreover learned that the management of F2 will be entrusted to Jonathan Palmer who runs Formula Palmer Audi in the UK.

[harsha]

Looks like Max has decided to bankrupt some unlucky people before he goes

[Knock-on]

Looks like Max has decided to bankrupt some unlucky people before he goes

:laugh:

Mind you Dr Palmer likes new series and he never got BTCC ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

It's all gone a little quiet on the "F2" front :crazy:

As GPWeek said a while ago "Anyone who thinks they can produce an F1 feeder chassis, engine and gearbox for the price of a season of karting, test and develop them and then manufacture enough for a viable field within the next six months, is invited to send all applications to the F2 office in Cloud Cuckoo Land."

:laugh:

[V12]

Palmer submits F2 tender: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70266

Seriously, reading that story was SO depressing!! The word "tender" was said six times in the news item including the title! That word should be banned from all forms of professional motorsport! We are very rapidly getting to the stage where sports prototypes and MotoGP will be the only proper forms of motorsport left!

[ArrowsFA1]

Ahhhh so there is news :) Interesting that Palmer's bid "is believed to involve input from the Williams F1 team."

[ioan]

So, not laughing anymore, huh?!

[ArrowsFA1]

So, not laughing anymore, huh?!
Laughing? No. But then I never was about this. It's always been my view that Max's F2 serves no purpose other than politics.

Given that Palmer has run the FPA series for many years it it not particularly surprising that he wants to get involved. The structure of FPA is very similar to Max's idea for his F2 series, and Palmer may see it as an opportunity to expand what was his idea.

[Oli_M]

Palmer bid accepted. And its "Williams designed cars" and "powered by a turbocharged Audi engine".

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43986

Testing starting in November! Thats a month and a half to design and build the car, and probably find some people to drive it too. To be honest, its sounding more and more like it will sit below GP2 (perhaps on a par with F3 Euro?)

[ArrowsFA1]

To be honest, its sounding more and more like it will sit below GP2 (perhaps on a par with F3 Euro?)
Or just above FPA ;)