why does red bull think renault is better?

[johnny shell]

why do they think the renault engine will be so much better than the ferrrari engine they had last year?

don't get much f1 covereage here and maybe I'm missing something....

[janneppi]

If i remember correctly, Renault engine is smaller in size and Ferrari engine supposedly is difficult to setup.

[Donney]

And besides it is a very reliable engine and needs (I think) a simpler cooling system.

[jens]

Maybe it was so last year, but who has said that this should be so this season as well? As Ferrari is said to be the title favourite, then they can't have a mediocre engine.

[inimitablestoo]

I'm not so sure they do think the Renault is that much better, but the support they'll get from Renault is likely to be better than they got from Ferrari. Renault has a proven history of being able to supply more than one team and be reasonably competitive at least.

[DanielB]

Maybe it was so last year, but who has said that this should be so this season as well?
It's the same engine as last year....

[Hondo]

I've only read about cooling system issues. Red Bull feels the cooling system requirements of the Renault engine won't interfere with their areo scheme like the Ferrari engine did.

[jso1985]

I think they switched to Renault on Newey's request. maybe he knows something we don't

[Sleeper]

Th Ferrari engine is said to be the most powerfull in the field but Renault have made engines that are easier to drive than many others for a few years now I gather. Plus the Ferrari engine is worse at heat reduction than the Renault and so the Renault allowes for better packaging, or so the theore goes at least.

Considering the cooling problems that ruined RBR's season last year I'm not surprised that they wanted to change the engine.

[cos]

why do they think the renault engine will be so much better than the ferrrari engine they had last year?

Maybe because since Ferrari started supplying customer engines no other constructor with a Ferrari powerplant has won a F1 race?

[DimitraF1]

it will be interesting to watch the same chassi with 2 different engines from str and redbull... :) a renault-ferrari junior challenge maybe?

[jjanicke]

Maybe it was so last year, but who has said that this should be so this season as well? As Ferrari is said to be the title favourite, then they can't have a mediocre engine.

why so defensive? no one attacked the ferrari engine, just said the renault was much easier to integrate.

calm down!

jes'

[harsha]

I'm not so sure they do think the Renault is that much better, but the support they'll get from Renault is likely to be better than they got from Ferrari. Renault has a proven history of being able to supply more than one team and be reasonably competitive at least.

:up: i agree,that's probably the reason why Red Bull went for the Renault engines......

[RJL25]

actually the main difference is related to cooling. Red Bull had a massive amount of problems at the start of testing last year with the ferrari engine as they hadn't anticipated its extra cooling needs, and the sidepod design, and therefore aerodynamics, where compromised as a result

the renault engine on the other hand requires less cooling then the ferrari, which allows for more compact and sculpted sidepod design, and therefore better aero

[harsha]

are both the RedBull and the Torro Rosso cars designed by the team led by Adrian Newey :?:

[RJL25]

are both the RedBull and the Torro Rosso cars designed by the team led by Adrian Newey :?:

yep it'll be the same car just with slightly different sidepod designs.

[savage86]

Does this mean RBR will have those brilliant Renault getaway's from the start? ;-)

[RJL25]

good question! I guess that depends on whether the fast getaways where the product of the engine or the gearbox....

[agwiii]

Does this mean RBR will have those brilliant Renault getaway's from the start? ;-)

I doubt that Renault will let RBR have their secret launch control software. That would be letting the cat out of the bag, although if the Renaults continue to leave the way they have in the past, and the RBR do not, perhaps the elderly men of F1 will notice it.

[RJL25]

im surprised that renaults "secret" to amazingly fast get aways is still a secret after what, 3 seasons now? You wonder when the rest of the field is gonna fully close the gap...

[harsha]

Renault always had incredible starts,is it more due to the traction/launch control system or due to the gear box :?:

[jens]

Renault's great starts have been due to the center of gravity, which has been located more rear than the other teams. Nothing to do with engine.

[agwiii]

Renault's great starts have been due to the center of gravity, which has been located more rear than the other teams. Nothing to do with engine.

I disagree. Their great launches are due to their great launch control. It's not a matter of mechanical grip.

[futuretiger9]

Renault have usually produced reliable, user-friendly units, and the Adrian Newey factor cannot be ignored. He has obviously had experience in the past of accommodating Renault engine requirements such as cooling, exhausts, packaging etc within a chassis design.

In moving up the grid, Red Bull are seeking to minimize the unfavourable variables. You could argue that they are "playing safe" in some ways, buying an arguably more conservative engine package, and hiring two older drivers. These may not be major factors if Mr Newey can demonstate that he has not lost the Midas touch. The overall package could prove to be very potent. Time will tell....

[msaxman]

good question! I guess that depends on whether the fast getaways where the product of the engine or the gearbox....

or alonso

[Sleeper]

or alonso
Since Fisi was also getting good starts it wouldnt be down to the driver other than his reaction times and getting the start procedure right.

I think its a combination of gearbox and weight distribution, if it was ilegal launch controle Ferarri would have thrown a fit by now.

[Dazz9908]

Wasn't the Renault a lower revving engine last yr compared to the Ferrari's higher revving engine.
Now the engines are capped to 19K RPM for this yr and beyond, I think Renault is more the logical choice.

And Didn't Ferrari have a vibration problem, causing setup problems.

In History Renault gave their customer a fairer/equal motor compaired to rival.
Time wil tell who's got the better motor. (Chassis not included)

[Roamy]

Actually the great starts by renault are because of TAD - The electronics wizard who cheated MS to countless titles.

[harsha]

^^^^except that launch control system is legal now....

[Roamy]

that is why you have TAD

[cosmicpanda]

Renault's great starts have been due to the center of gravity, which has been located more rear than the other teams. Nothing to do with engine.


if it was that simple, every team would have a centre of gravity like that.

[RJL25]

^^^^except that launch control system is legal now....

if you believe that ANY current F1 car is 100% legal and above board then you also believe in little fairy's living in your garden

[DexDexter]

I don't think the engine characteristics are the main issue here, I believe they (at Red Bull) believe that Renault will allow them to compete against the factory team, whereas Ferrari wouldn't allow that to happen. An example: In the early 90's (92?) when my countryman JJ Lehto drove for Scuderia Italia which was powered by Ferrari engines, Ferrari had the awful double floor car which wasn't that quick and on a couple of occasions the Scuderia Italia cars were actually almost as quick as the real Ferraris. According to Lehto's quote, in one race (Ferrari were afraid of Capelli being outqualified by the Scuderia Italias) Ferrari suddenly gave them pump or whatever fuel instead of the usual one which took away a lot of horsepower from the Scuderia Italia cars and made them slower than Capelli. Now that's an old example but why should Ferrari be any different these days? A Red Bull car in front of a Ferrari might suddenly have engine problems...

[ioan]

Renault's great starts have been due to the center of gravity, which has been located more rear than the other teams. Nothing to do with engine.

You're right, Ross Brawn and Jean Todt said it often that they knew how to get the same starts but it would have negative effects on the handling of the car in the race.

With the new tires hey get this year all of them will need more downforce on the front end of the car and this means that maybe even Renault will have to move the COG towards the front and lose their starting advantage in the process.

[ioan]

I don't think the engine characteristics are the main issue here, I believe they (at Red Bull) believe that Renault will allow them to compete against the factory team, whereas Ferrari wouldn't allow that to happen. An example: In the early 90's (92?) when my countryman JJ Lehto drove for Scuderia Italia which was powered by Ferrari engines, Ferrari had the awful double floor car which wasn't that quick and on a couple of occasions the Scuderia Italia cars were actually almost as quick as the real Ferraris. According to Lehto's quote, in one race (Ferrari were afraid of Capelli being outqualified by the Scuderia Italias) Ferrari suddenly gave them pump or whatever fuel instead of the usual one which took away a lot of horsepower from the Scuderia Italia cars and made them slower than Capelli. Now that's an old example but why should Ferrari be any different these days? A Red Bull car in front of a Ferrari might suddenly have engine problems...

Link to the story?


A Red Bull car in front of a Ferrari might suddenly have engine problems...

Mabe you also tell us how could Ferrari manage to do that, unless they have discovered a magic wand?!

[ioan]

Actually the great starts by renault are because of TAD - The electronics wizard who cheated MS to countless titles.

How many exactly?
BTW we are still waiting for the proof you promised many seasons ago! :p :

[ioan]

I'm not so sure they do think the Renault is that much better, but the support they'll get from Renault is likely to be better than they got from Ferrari. Renault has a proven history of being able to supply more than one team and be reasonably competitive at least.
Ever happened that a Renault customer team did better than the Renault factory team?

[inimitablestoo]

It has, though for a consistent season-long basis you'd probably need to go back to the turbo era.

[ShiftingGears]

Ever happened that a Renault customer team did better than the Renault factory team?

Yes - the Lotus and Ligier teams with Renault engines beat the factory team in 1985.

[ioan]

It has, though for a consistent season-long basis you'd probably need to go back to the turbo era.

Well if we go back long enough we may find also cutomer ferrari cars beating factory Ferrari cars too.

[harsha]

if you believe that ANY current F1 car is 100% legal and above board then you also believe in little fairy's living in your garden

i would just say innocent until found guilty.....

[wedge]

^^^^except that launch control system is legal now....

I thought LC is now banned but TC isn't????

The drivers aren't allowed to press a button on the steering wheel, but now manually operate the clutch and throttle?

But yeah, I completely agree the software engineers have now optimised TC on the startline.

[Tazio]

Anyone interested in what A.N. says the reason is?
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=38357

[inimitablestoo]

Well if we go back long enough we may find also cutomer ferrari cars beating factory Ferrari cars too.
Occasionally, maybe. Not that the question was ever raised about Red Bull being able to beat Renault, but it's an interesting tangent you've gone off on there :s

[Roamy]

Ever happened that a Renault customer team did better than the Renault factory team?

It possible could reflect back to the supertec/ williams era. Renault was providing engines and while not in the series the engines seems very even. I would suspect Ferrari holds back some secrets. I think if I recall the Sauber engine has some different parts and perhaps was not alway current spec. I would imagine Red Bull will be getting current spect engines.

[agwiii]

if you believe that ANY current F1 car is 100% legal and above board then you also believe in little fairy's living in your garden

Abso***inglutely! Given the complexity (and idiocy) of today's F1 Rules, I doubt that it is possible for any car to te 100% legal. I also suspect there is more than one team that has taken Smokey Yunick's approach to heart.

[jens]

if it was that simple, every team would have a centre of gravity like that.

:p : Well, everything has pros and cons. It's not like that something has an advantage in one area and it's automatically better in overall. Read this:


You're right, Ross Brawn and Jean Todt said it often that they knew how to get the same starts but it would have negative effects on the handling of the car in the race.

[agwiii]

:p : Well, everything has pros and cons. It's not like that something has an advantage in one area and it's automatically better in overall. Read this:

Exactly so! If there one "correct" approach, all of the teams would adopt it. Instead, engineering an F1 car is all about compromises, in part because of the dynamics of the cars.

[DexDexter]

Link to the story? Mabe you also tell us how could Ferrari manage to do that, unless they have discovered a magic wand?!


Yeah, Finnish magazine VM (the World of Speed) September or October 1992. Sorry no links from that time...lol..... About engine problems, I did not mean it literally, but I'm sure engineers have ways to make an engine a little bit less powerful at least by the next race weekend if there are problems concerning the factory team's ability to beat a customer team. With all the stuff that Ferrari's been doing with team orders etc. I wouldn't be at all suprised about those sorts of things. And why should they let a customer Ferrari beat the works car? I wouldn't if I were Jean Todt.

[Dazz9908]

Ever happened that a Renault customer team did better than the Renault factory team?

Yes - the Lotus and Ligier teams with Renault engines beat the factory team in 1985.
To be correct the Lotus-Renault was always better than the Factory team from 84 on!

[harsha]

that could depend on who were driving for Lotus,i remember Senna and De Angelis in 85......remember reading about it somewhere

[ioan]

And why should they let a customer Ferrari beat the works car? I wouldn't if I were Jean Todt.

Than why criticize him?! :p :

[ioan]

Anyone interested in what A.N. says the reason is?
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=38357

So essentially he says that they will share development work with Renault and thus gain more, and he also says that the engine configuration will be frozen and thus they will only gain some in the engine management department, contradicting somehow his previously exposed point.

I don't know which part of engine management can't be done with computer simulation, maybe some people can clarify this aspect.

After reading what Newey had to say, the only valuable thing from the deal is that he knows some people who were there 10 years ago too, not too say that reports last year said that the Renault deal is more expensive than the Ferrari one.

In the end we will see if they did right or not in little less than 2 months.

[harsha]

it won't take two months though ioan,i'd say 3 races would be enough to decide that :p :

[ioan]

it won't take two months though ioan,i'd say 3 races would be enough to decide that :p :

That might be true, but the first race will be only in 7 weeks (almost 2 months, as I said)! :D :p :

[harsha]

only 7 weeks :o : :p :,we need races otherwise i am gonna go crazy :p :

[ioan]

only 7 weeks :o : :p :,we need races otherwise i am gonna go crazy :p :

Don't know if it makes you feel better, but if you take a closer look you might see you are not the only one! ;)

[harsha]

Once Schumacher retired,we don't seem to have the off season entertainment too :D

[Tazio]

it won't take two months though ioan,i'd say 3 races would be enough to decide that :p :

It will be more than 2 months betore there are 3 race's run!


Qoute:
Renault are not supplying us engines for profit, they’re doing it – at best – at cost," he confirmed.

"They’re doing it because they want more units out in the field so that they can learn about the performance and reliability of the engine.

"And that puts a fundamentally different tone on the relationship, and one which I’m very happy with.

I find it a stretch to believe that Renault are providing engines at cost! Cost plus maybe!
I think this is the fundamental difference between the two. Renault will let, and welcome data, and input from customers. Ferrari will supply an engine, and in essence say "we think you will like it! good luck!". This is perfectly consistent with Ferrari's Autonomous posture in F-1!

[ioan]

It will be more than 2 months betore there are 3 race's run!


Qoute:
Renault are not supplying us engines for profit, they’re doing it – at best – at cost," he confirmed.

"They’re doing it because they want more units out in the field so that they can learn about the performance and reliability of the engine.

"And that puts a fundamentally different tone on the relationship, and one which I’m very happy with.

I find it a stretch to believe that Renault are providing engines at cost! Cost plus maybe!
I think this is the fundamental difference between the two. Renault will let, and welcome data, and input from customers. Ferrari will supply an engine, and in essence say "we think you will like it! good luck!". This is perfectly consistent with Ferrari's Autonomous posture in F-1!

I remember reading about the cost of the two different engines and the Renault ones were more expensive than the Ferrari engines, so maybe Newey tries to convince Mateschitz that they made a good deal.

Also as he reckons engine configurations are/will be frozen for a few seasons, so where is the difference between running 2 or 4 engines if you can't use the data to change the improve the engine?

Newey couldn't make last years RB2 chassis perform well with the Ferrari engine and he took the chance with the Renault engine, in any case it can't be much worse than last season, but I doubt he will say it.

[wmcot]

if you believe that ANY current F1 car is 100% legal and above board then you also believe in little fairy's living in your garden

Hey! Leave my garden out of this - and besides, "fairies" is no longer politically correct! :)

[Dazz9908]

I read in my Local Racing Mag, that Newey prefers the Renault over th Ferrari, due to the lower Temperatures it produces, allowing a more sculptured bodywork for aero Efficiency.
Also Newey has gone back to the twin keel front end!

[DexDexter]

I think that one factor that we should bear in mind when analysing Red Bull's decision to swap engines is Renault's future in F1 as a team. There were some rumours a while ago about Renault possibly closing the doors of the factory team. So perhaps, just perhaps, if Red Bull were to outpace Renault, Renault chiefs might well decide to continue in F1 as just an engine supplier for Red Bull, for example...with Ferrari, that is never going to happen, and realistically you are not going to be able to fight for world championships in a "customer" Ferrari if one of your opponents is your engine supplier. With Renault, we don't know what'll happen if customer cars start to beat the works car, but with Ferrari we do.