Will team Honda benefit.

[scaliwag]

Will team Honda benefit?
We all knew team Honda have been lacking in the aero department from day one, however we didn't know to what extent.
It would seem Honda's aero department has been bereft of
aerodynamicists.
Now with the aero department is fully staffed, can we expect to see an improvement?

From N. Fry's statement below it would seem JB has been working miracles with the Honda machinery.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CEO Nick Fry talked about the investment put into the team -- such as the new wind tunnel becoming operational and additional machining facilities -- and he now believes there are enough resources for Honda to continue development through the season.
"We have now four times the number of aerodynamicists that we had 12 months ago, which brings us not ahead of the other large teams, but it brings us to at least on par," he said. "It's the first time we are starting to work on a level field with the other teams. We now have a similar number of people as McLaren, Renault and maybe Ferrari..."

Regards scaliwag.

[zoostation]

interesting...

...link to story?

[ioan]

Will team Honda benefit?
We all knew team Honda have been lacking in the aero department from day one, however we didn't know to what extent.
It would seem Honda's aero department has been bereft of
aerodynamicists.
Now with the aero department is fully staffed, can we expect to see an improvement?

From N. Fry's statement below it would seem JB has been working miracles with the Honda machinery.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CEO Nick Fry talked about the investment put into the team -- such as the new wind tunnel becoming operational and additional machining facilities -- and he now believes there are enough resources for Honda to continue development through the season.
"We have now four times the number of aerodynamicists that we had 12 months ago, which brings us not ahead of the other large teams, but it brings us to at least on par," he said. "It's the first time we are starting to work on a level field with the other teams. We now have a similar number of people as McLaren, Renault and maybe Ferrari..."

Regards scaliwag.

The question is:
"Are the Honda aerodynamicists as good as those at Ferrari, do they have the same level of experience?"

The answer is:
"It's higly unlikely."

[Sleeper]

It was no secret that aero was Honda's weakest area in the last couple of years and from what I've heard is that Geof Willis was very conservative on the development path. Now that he's gone we can see just how good the team is.

[DimitraF1]

we will see be patient :p march is close

[scaliwag]

interesting...

...link to story?

By Nikki Reynolds - Motorsport.com

[Ian McC]

Well as Toyota have shown us big cash does not equate to good car, they can have as many as they like but if they don't do the job then it just wont matter.

Still, some is certainly better than none :D

[scaliwag]

Well as Toyota have shown us big cash does not equate to good car, they can have as many as they like but if they don't do the job then it just wont matter.

Still, some is certainly better than none :D

Agreed Mac,
However my point is JB has done extreamy well to keep the Honda at the front dispite the teams lack of a real aero package.
More good news for Honda fans below.
Racing series F1
Date 2007-01-26

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacky Eeckelaert - Engineering Director:

"The aero data collected from the RA107 this week shows a very good correlation with the model data from the wind tunnel so we are pleased with that. Now that the car has gone through all of its reliability checks, we will start work on set-up evaluation in Valencia next week."

Regards scaliwag.

[jens]

Jacky Eeckelaert - Engineering Director:

"The aero data collected from the RA107 this week shows a very good correlation with the model data from the wind tunnel so we are pleased with that. Now that the car has gone through all of its reliability checks, we will start work on set-up evaluation in Valencia next week."


Every team is trying to hype itself up, so we can't make serious conclusions from that.

[scaliwag]

Every team is trying to hype itself up, so we can't make serious conclusions from that.

Ok jens, good point.
However if Honda engineers state the new aero shows good results, why dismiss their findings out of hand?????
Regards scaliwag.

[futuretiger9]

On the surface, it looks like Honda are just throwing money at the problem, and hoping that it produces the desired results. It does not always work like that. You can have as many people as you like, if they don't work well with the other engineers, success is not guaranteed.

However, the team are making positive noises about this element of the car. Honda really do need to continue the momentum from the latter part of 2006, to achieve this they will need to make aerodynamic improvements. The trouble is, I don't expect that Ferrari, Renault and McLaren have exactly been resting on their laurels either....

[ClarkFan]

It's not so much that Honda is throwing money at a problem, Toyota-style, as bringing an area where BAR was substandard up to par with the other better teams.

Will they get all the way to the front in one jump? Doesn't seem likely - no other team has really done that in the last 15+ years. Even with MS it took Ferrari several years to get to the front and the Williams juggernaut of the 1990s took 1990 and 1991 building momentum.

What I hope to see is Honda more consistently battling for the lead and winning several races this year, but probably not fighting for the championship(s). Next year, if they have gotten their sums right, they could be in the middle of it.

ClarkFan

[airshifter]

As long as they continue to learn from their shortcomings, Honda will become a team to challenge others.

The one advantage that many of the top teams has had in the past was drivers with a lot of experience that can help the teams understand what aero changes work, and which don't. Although Honda doesn't have the most experienced drivers, recent changes move Button up in the experience department compared to some big teams. I would bet money that MS staying with Ferrari is to fill a void that even Kimi and Felipe can't fill when it comes to setting up the cars.

[scaliwag]

It's not so much that Honda is throwing money at a problem, Toyota-style, as bringing an area where BAR was substandard up to par with the other better teams.

Will they get all the way to the front in one jump? Doesn't seem likely - no other team has really done that in the last 15+ years. Even with MS it took Ferrari several years to get to the front and the Williams juggernaut of the 1990s took 1990 and 1991 building momentum.

What I hope to see is Honda more consistently battling for the lead and winning several races this year, but probably not fighting for the championship(s). Next year, if they have gotten their sums right, they could be in the middle of it.

ClarkFan


Clarkfan.
Very much appreciate your input, your posts on all aspects of F1 techno show great insight.
How far do you think Honda are behind the other leading teams, with regard to aero, just how quickly can Honda catch up, is it simply a matter of transferring new aero info into design, (or is it a matter of) try this engineers and hope the new aero info works?
Regards scaliwag.

[Knock-on]

Clarkfan.
Very much appreciate your input, your posts on all aspects of F1 techno show great insight.
How far do you think Honda are behind the other leading teams, with regard to aero, just how quickly can Honda catch up, is it simply a matter of transferring new aero info into design, (or is it a matter of) try this engineers and hope the new aero info works?
Regards scaliwag.


It's not just a case of putting a new, more efficient aero package on the car as matching the aero package to the handling of the car.

One of the problems with the Honda has been it's efficiency over a race distance. It was a good qualifying car that showed such promise. Jenson would wring the socks off the thing and get it up there in a position it shouldn't be. However, the car was never capable of maintaining good race speed because it was working itself too hard. Tyres, brakes etc.

With a more efficient aero package, this can be improved to make a car that isn't just fast but can maintain a good pace for the race. Ferrari are great at this. They can wind it up when they need but most of the time are at 90% to maintain good race pace and reliability. Everyone else is pushing the limits and suffering.

That's why MS only broke down once in the last 3 years. They never really were 10/10ths but they had to be at the end of 06 and we know what happened.

[ioan]

One of the problems with the Honda has been it's efficiency over a race distance. It was a good qualifying car that showed such promise. Jenson would wring the socks off the thing and get it up there in a position it shouldn't be. However, the car was never capable of maintaining good race speed because it was working itself too hard. Tyres, brakes etc.

Driver!
I doubt that the car gets more tired than the driver anyway! :D

[Valve Bounce]

Honda's biggest problem is that they have lost the best test driver in F1 and possibly a very, very good racer. It remains to be seen how much feedback they are going to get from Super Aguri which may conflict with feedback they get from their own test drivers and race drivers.

I am putting all my marbles in the ring here, and predict that the ant will be the big surprise of this year. (well at least to some people he will be a surprise, but not to me).

According to Eiji, Honda have two parallel departments working on R&D, Toshigi and Honda themselves (I don't know the independance or otherwise of Toshigi), and I still don't know whether Super Aguri's vchassis is kosher. Can somebody shed some light on this?

[scaliwag]

Thanks everybody for contributing to this thread, I apologise for not answering all the posts.

The reason, one of our family dogs, Red is coming to the end of her life and I have to be with her.
May God bless you all.
Regards scaliwag.

[captin 1 VXR]

Jenson would wring the socks off the thing and get it up there in a position it shouldn't be. However, the car was never capable of maintaining good race speed because it was working itself too hard. Tyres, brakes etc.


well have to say with your comment about tyres you are so far off there .
jenson is one of the smoothest driver out there . and tyre wear was not a problem for the team on jensons side .

areo side . yes thay did have major hick ups but now thay have the wind tunnel on the factory site . this will help them and should give them a upper hand over some other teams .

[Knock-on]

well have to say with your comment about tyres you are so far off there .
jenson is one of the smoothest driver out there . and tyre wear was not a problem for the team on jensons side .

areo side . yes thay did have major hick ups but now thay have the wind tunnel on the factory site . this will help them and should give them a upper hand over some other teams .


I totally agree with Jensons skill. I have been banging on about his preciseness and ability for years :D

He is one of, if not the least demanding driver out there for the speed he gets out of the car. It's no coincidence IMHO that his team mates get more car failures as the Honda has been a bit fragile on occasions and their driving style has not lent well to the longevity of the cars.

What I was trying to say is that the aero package was not benefiting the equipment as say it was in the Ferrari.

Put any of the other drivers in the Honda and I would guess Jenson will come off with the fastest time and best tyres at the end of it.

[Valve Bounce]

Thanks everybody for contributing to this thread, I apologise for not answering all the posts.

The reason, one of our family dogs, Red is coming to the end of her life and I have to be with her.
May God bless you all.
Regards scaliwag.


I am so sorry. We lost Toko, our Chihuahua in July, and we stilll grieve for her. I hope you'll be OK.

[Valve Bounce]

Put any of the other drivers in the Honda and I would guess Jenson will come off with the fastest time and best tyres at the end of it.


Good grief!! are we going to canonise the guy or what? maybe we could enlist his help in the Pommy Cricket team.
:p :

[Ian McC]

Good grief!! are we going to canonise the guy or what? maybe we could enlist his help in the Pommy Cricket team.
:p :

*sigh* Getting worried that DC will out do Webber? :p :

[93VTEC]

IMHO Having more people, can't be much worse than having none. Sure someone will go in the wrong direction, but that is why they have a team. I am sure HONDA would not just hire a whole bunch of people and let them loose. In '06 HONDA was lacking in aero, but they did OK, which would indicate to me that someone in the squad that was responsible for aero knew what they were doing to some extent.
Now you add more people, and perhaps that person that appeared to be OK in the aero department turns out to be a brilliand designer, that just simply needed some extra help to realize his/her full potential.
At least that is what I am hopong will happen.

[Valve Bounce]

According to Eiji, Honda and Toshigi are carying out parallel R&D. Let's hope that, with St Bunsen on the grid, there will be wins galore this year.

[93VTEC]

According to Eiji, Honda and Toshigi are carying out parallel R&D. Let's hope that, with St Bunsen on the grid, there will be wins galore this year.

Hope so

[Valve Bounce]

Hey!! I was just kidding :D

[jens]

What more I follow that winter testing, that more clear it comes that Honda has "done it again" - it means more words than deeds. Can't see them fighting for the title. Title? More likely they have a lot of work to do to defend even their 4th position from the attacks of BMW and maybe Toyota. And at least at the start of the season Honda may well be in trouble to outdrive even Williams.

If the season turns out to be another "2005" for Honda, then I must feel really sorry for the drivers. I'd like to see Button driving a winning car one day to see what he can do, but that day seems to become less probable every year. And for Rubens it's not gonna be the best way to finish a Formula One career.

[Tazio]

Honda's biggest problem is that they have lost the best test driver in F1 and possibly a very, very good racer. It remains to be seen how much feedback they are going to get from Super Aguri which may conflict with feedback they get from their own test drivers and race drivers.

I am putting all my marbles in the ring here, and predict that the ant will be the big surprise of this year. (well at least to some people he will be a surprise, but not to me).

According to Eiji, Honda have two parallel departments working on R&D, Toshigi and Honda themselves (I don't know the independance or otherwise of Toshigi), and I still don't know whether Super Aguri's vchassis is kosher. Can somebody shed some light on this?

Well the ant is still in the fold, and the guy they replaced him with will be as useful or more!
I'm glad Honda is giving CK a seat. I admire him for "taking the high road" when Red Bull gave him the ultimatum!

[futuretiger9]

What more I follow that winter testing, that more clear it comes that Honda has "done it again" - it means more words than deeds. Can't see them fighting for the title. Title? More likely they have a lot of work to do to defend even their 4th position from the attacks of BMW and maybe Toyota. And at least at the start of the season Honda may well be in trouble to outdrive even Williams.

If the season turns out to be another "2005" for Honda, then I must feel really sorry for the drivers. I'd like to see Button driving a winning car one day to see what he can do, but that day seems to become less probable every year. And for Rubens it's not gonna be the best way to finish a Formula One career.


It is disappointing to see Honda look so unimpressive at this stage. It looks like they will again have to rely on improvements and developments later in the season in order to achieve any success. As you said, the people to feel sorry for are the drivers.

[jens]

It is disappointing to see Honda look so unimpressive at this stage. It looks like they will again have to rely on improvements and developments later in the season in order to achieve any success. As you said, the people to feel sorry for are the drivers.

Yup. Actually I have never quite understood the hype around Honda as people seem always very optimistic about them before seasons. This year they have probably lost their "winter testing World Champion" title. :p : Anyway, Honda had a brilliant situation into the season with minimal changes. They had practically all the opportunities to make a breakthrough and I thought that this season should be "now or never" for Honda. I mean if they can't do it now in such a brilliant situation, then how can they do it in other situations? So, what is wrong? Why they can't do it?

I'm starting to believe that replacing David Richards with Nick Fry after 2004 was a mistake.
I'm starting to believe that sacking Geoff Willis last year was a mistake - the man, who was behind the great rise of BAR. When I heard about his contract with BAR at the end of 2002, I thought straightaway that BAR is gonna be a team on a rise. And it proved so.
And maybe even Valve Bounce has some truth in the words that the loss of Davidson might reflect Honda's performance. :p : Whatever Ant is as a racing driver, but he indeed is a top-class test driver.

If Button wants to become a champion one day, then he probably needs to change the team, although here comes another problem - he has practically nowhere to go, hasn't he? Teams with good outlooks (Fer, McL, Ren, BMW) all seem to be filled for next seasons and other teams are probably not attractive enough and are not a better exchange for Honda.