Should Massa have been black flagged?

[Knock-on]

Not having a go at Massa specifically but in his own words, he doesn't have a clue why he couldn't keep it on the Island. He had a minimum of 5 spinns and spent more time going backwards in the GP than forwards.

When doe an occassional "off" become a continuing danger to other competitors?

He obviously couldn't drive the car on Inters so either play safe and go full wets or get out the way before he takes someone else off?

[ten-tenths]

thats a bit harsh for massa. i dont have a clue how he does in the wet though. was today just an abberation or is he not as competitive in the wet?

[Dave B]

In more junior formula, maybe he should have been black-flagged. But in F1 drivers can generally be trusted not to endanger themselves or others - for example Massa was extremely circumspect when rejoining the track. I think yesterday's circumstances were exceptional, there was a huge amount of water and Massa and/or his car clearly had some sort of issue.

[Ranger]

thats a bit harsh for massa. i dont have a clue how he does in the wet though. was today just an abberation or is he not as competitive in the wet?

He was fine in Monaco (also wet), although, IMO, he drives on confidence.

At Monaco he was over the moon at his qualifying performance (He qualified on pole with significantly more fuel than anyone around him) and consequently did a solid race with only 1 mistake.

At Silverstone he had a huge crash on Friday on some oil, bummed out (due to both team and driver) on Saturday and then spun 5 times during the race on Sunday.

So the confidence link would hold some water in explaining this phenomenon.

Just my opinion, though.

[ioan]

Not having a go at Massa specifically but in his own words, he doesn't have a clue why he couldn't keep it on the Island. He had a minimum of 5 spinns and spent more time going backwards in the GP than forwards.

When doe an occassional "off" become a continuing danger to other competitors?

He obviously couldn't drive the car on Inters so either play safe and go full wets or get out the way before he takes someone else off?

Stupid thread.

[Storm]

Why the need to black flag a driver? He wasn't spinning his car and endangering others on purpose was he?

He drove badly with probably a lack of confidence/negativity combined with maybe some car problems and ended up spinning a lot of times.

[BDunnell]

In more junior formula, maybe he should have been black-flagged. But in F1 drivers can generally be trusted not to endanger themselves or others - for example Massa was extremely circumspect when rejoining the track. I think yesterday's circumstances were exceptional, there was a huge amount of water and Massa and/or his car clearly had some sort of issue.

Agreed.

[ioan]

Why the need to black flag a driver? He wasn't spinning his car and endangering others on purpose was he?

In fact they should have black flagged Hamilton:


"When Rubens was catching me, I didn't even know. I couldn't see in my wing mirrors, I could barely see out of my visor," Hamilton continued.

"All I could hear was the tone of two engines: my engine and someone else's, and for a second, I thought 'oh God, just let him past.'

"So I stayed on inside and braked early and he came flying down the outside. But it was so slippery, it was so tough, it was a real mental challenge."


http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_3787962,00.html

Come on Knockie, what do you think? Shouldn't they have black flagged a driver who had a faulty helmet and couldn't see through his visor?! (unless he is again making up things)

[Knock-on]

Stupid thread.

Stupid post :p :

All I was asking ioan is whether his driving constituted an unnaceptable danger to other competitors.

You would have been the first to moan if it was someone like Sato :D

[Mifune]

Stupid thread.

that explains your presence here.

[leopard]

Was it only my eyesight, I saw something around the track crossing over far in front of Massa's car in his second spin at around lap 37, supposedly a black cat. Cat, more over crash a cat would be precedence of unluckiness.

Sorry interrupting discussion with something superstitious, carry on ... :)

[gravity]

Maybe a hare? Not a cat. Were def not leapards leaping.

[ioan]

Stupid post :p :

All I was asking ioan is whether his driving constituted an unnaceptable danger to other competitors.

You would have been the first to moan if it was someone like Sato :D

In fact I was supporting Sato over Button!

I still didn't see your answer about Hamilton's visor, and if he should have been black flagged! Show us your "unbiased" opinion.

[ioan]

that explains your presence here.

Yours too! :p :

[Storm]

leopardsleeping, do you get Star Sports commentry?
Steve Slater said it was a rabbit....could be wrong since Slater is almost never right.....the number of times he and Julian Bailey called Alonso as "Piquet" even after Piquet had crashed out was amusing.

[gravity]

I still didn't see your answer about Hamilton's visor, and if he should have been black flagged! Show us your "unbiased" opinion.

I would agree that he admitted to driving under dangerous conditions *having to clean the inside of his visor on occasion). Hosting the race under those conditions was the track steward/organiser's choice. If they felt the conditions were dangerous for the drivers I'm sure they wouldn't have started the event.
If all the drivers were spinning repeatedly, they might also have red flagged the race. Massa was obviously having trouble. If he was going to be brought into the pits, it would have been up to the team to make that call, not the FIA or stewards.

Of course, as Ferrari didn't call him in, and knowing that Ferrari have been making wrong calls lately, it's prob safe to say they should have called him in. :D

[ShiftingGears]

leopardsleeping, do you get Star Sports commentry?
Steve Slater said it was a rabbit....could be wrong since Slater is almost never right.....the number of times he and Julian Bailey called Alonso as "Piquet" even after Piquet had crashed out was amusing.

It was a hare.

[ioan]

I would agree that he admitted to driving under dangerous conditions *having to clean the inside of his visor on occasion). Hosting the race under those conditions was the track steward/organiser's choice. If they felt the conditions were dangerous for the drivers I'm sure they wouldn't have started the event.
If all the drivers were spinning repeatedly, they might also have red flagged the race. Massa was obviously having trouble. If he was going to be brought into the pits, it would have been up to the team to make that call, not the FIA or stewards.

Of course, as Ferrari didn't call him in, and knowing that Ferrari have been making wrong calls lately, it's prob safe to say they should have called him in. :D

Hamilton was the only one who came and said he didn't see because of his visor. Seems a very dangerous thing, not to be able to see while driving around at 300+ kph.

Massa spun 5 times, Webber 4 times I think, Raikkonen twice, Kovalainen at least once and there were many others who spun or went off, including Sutil's highly dangerous move.

In these conditions I'm yet to be clarified why was only Massa a dangerous driver out there.

Anyway I see that Knockie chickened out after his little trolling number.

[Daniel]

Stupid post :p :
.....
You would have been the first to moan if it was someone like Sato :D

.... and you be the first on here saying how hard the conditions were in his dog of a car if it were Hamilton.

Pot, kettle, black.

[MrJan]

The only reason you knew that Hamilton had a fogged visor was because he said so. In no way did his driving represent a danger that was any greater than the other drivers.

I can see the point that is being made in the OP. As Mr Brockman said he wold have been done in lower classes and I don't see why they should change. Every single time that Massa spun he was out of control of the vehicle and posed a danger, same as all the other spinners.

I don't actually think that he should have been black flagged, just that there could have been justification for one :)

[Daniel]

The only reason you knew that Hamilton had a fogged visor was because he said so. In no way did his driving represent a danger that was any greater than the other drivers.

I can see the point that is being made in the OP. As Mr Brockman said he wold have been done in lower classes and I don't see why they should change. Every single time that Massa spun he was out of control of the vehicle and posed a danger, same as all the other spinners.

I don't actually think that he should have been black flagged, just that there could have been justification for one :)

Thing is drivers make mistakes. IMHO driving with a fogged up visor is more dangerous.

[ioan]

The only reason you knew that Hamilton had a fogged visor was because he said so. In no way did his driving represent a danger that was any greater than the other drivers.

He also said he had to clean it by opening it almost every lap, I bet the stewards and the race director had on-board camera footage of this.

But hey where's Knockie?! trying to repair Hamilton's helmet ventilation system? :laugh:

[MrJan]

Thing is drivers make mistakes. IMHO driving with a fogged up visor is more dangerous.

MOst likely that all the driver's were fogged up and anyone in the spray would have been as good as. There was no way to see that his view was impaired and he was driving better than most of the field. In other words, no one knew he could be black flagged :D

[Daniel]

MOst likely that all the driver's were fogged up and anyone in the spray would have been as good as. There was no way to see that his view was impaired and he was driving better than most of the field. In other words, no one knew he could be black flagged :D
Well if we use Knockie-Logic then he should be black flagged retrospectively.

Personally I think Formula 1 isn't a sport for little teenie bopper girls. People will spin. If Lewis hadn't taken fresh tyres he would have been spinning like Kimi was. **** happens get over it and so on. No need for anyone to be black flagged IMHO

[Dave B]

Thing is drivers make mistakes. IMHO driving with a fogged up visor is more dangerous.

Everybody apart from the race leader, or those trailing so far behind another car, would have had near-zero visibilty thanks to the spray. Should they all have been black-flagged too?

[Daniel]

Everybody apart from the race leader, or those trailing so far behind another car, would have had near-zero visibilty thanks to the spray. Should they all have been black-flagged too?
I didn't say they should have been :p I simply said it was more dangerous than a spinner :p

[ioan]

For the record, I don't think Lewy should have been black flagged, he was one of those who did very few mistakes.
I brought this up to give the starter of the thread the chance to give his "objective" opinion on another dangerous driver out there! :p :
I won't ask about the other 18! ;)

[GridGirl]

I don't really think Massa being blacked flagged yesterday but I was thinking about the race in 2002 when there was also a bit of rain and Massa must of span about 3 or 4 times. He definately span infront of us and showered us with gravel at one point. Maybe in 2002 he was just full or Rookie mistakes or then again maybe he just can't drive Silverstone when it rains.

Unfortunately two went Silverstone races where he is appauling can't really be classed as a trend so start your rain dances for the 2009 British GP now. If a trend can be proven we might as well black flag him before he even attempts a wet Silverstone in future, if only to save him embarassing himself once again. ;)

[GridGirl]

Edited for double post.

[MrJan]

I didn't say they should have been :p I simply said it was more dangerous than a spinner :p

And I only said that there was a possibility for FM to be black flagged :)

As for what Ioan said, drivers play with their helmets all the time, be it taking off tear offs. In retrospect I now realise that I saw him doing it and said to my Dad "What's he up to?" We just assumed that he was adjusting his helmet (oooh eerr missus)

[Knock-on]

Hamilton was the only one who came and said he didn't see because of his visor. Seems a very dangerous thing, not to be able to see while driving around at 300+ kph.

Massa spun 5 times, Webber 4 times I think, Raikkonen twice, Kovalainen at least once and there were many others who spun or went off, including Sutil's highly dangerous move.

In these conditions I'm yet to be clarified why was only Massa a dangerous driver out there.

Anyway I see that Knockie chickened out after his little trolling number.

Sorry ioan, I have a job to do rather than answering your insightful posts :p :

Please re-read the first post.

"Should Massa have been Black Flagged?"

.. Is a question. I did not say he should have been.

I also said that I was not aiming this at Massa specifically but asked when a driver, that admits he had no idea what was going on with the car and why he kept spinning, is constituted a danger to himself and others.

However, you choose to compare a superb drive by the winner as being on par with the worst driver of the day and you accuse me of bias :laugh:

Yep, lewis won, black flag him. I can see why you like Max so much :p :

[Daniel]

Sorry ioan, I have a job to do rather than answering your insightful posts :p :

Please re-read the first post.

"Should Massa have been Black Flagged?"

.. Is a question. I did not say he should have been.

I also said that I was not aiming this at Massa specifically but asked when a driver, that admits he had no idea what was going on with the car and why he kept spinning, is constituted a danger to himself and others.

However, you choose to compare a superb drive by the winner as being on par with the worst driver of the day and you accuse me of bias :laugh:

Yep, lewis won, black flag him. I can see why you like Max so much :p :

Where in his post does he compare Hamilton with Massa?

You live under a bridge don't you.....

[ioan]

Sorry ioan, I have a job to do rather than answering your insightful posts :p :

Please re-read the first post.

"Should Massa have been Black Flagged?"

.. Is a question. I did not say he should have been.

I also said that I was not aiming this at Massa specifically but asked when a driver, that admits he had no idea what was going on with the car and why he kept spinning, is constituted a danger to himself and others.

You could have asked " Should drivers be black flagged for spinning on track?".
Massa spun 5 times, MW 4 times, and there were others who lost in a very very dangerous way compared to Massa's spins, still I only see you attacking the one you profoundly dislike. So much about not aiming Massa with your thread. :rolleyes:

Still you are not answering the question about Hamilton not seeing out of his helmet while driving at 300+ kph! Can't you be as "objective" with Lewy as you are being with Massa?! :p :

[ioan]

Where in his post does he compare Hamilton with Massa?

You live under a bridge don't you.....

No, he lives under a rock. And only comes out when he has the occasion to spit his venom.

[ArrowsFA1]

Should Massa have been black flagged?

No

[Knock-on]

Typical of you two. When you have no answer based on logic, resort to insult and accusation :laugh:

Bring it on :p :

ioan, please give me one (1) instance where I have spat venom at Massa? I really like the bloke but question his ability. He started this year badly, got better but yesterdays performance was terrible. Whether it was the car or driver is up for discussion but Kimi managed in the sister car much better.

So, get back to facts, justify your claim and stop being silly ;)

[Daniel]

Whether it was the car or driver is up for discussion but Kimi managed in the sister car much better.

You say there might be an outside reason (screwed car) and then say how Kimi did better and infer that this somehow means Massa is to blame even though something looked to be wrong with his car and then you have the nerve to come and argue that your arguments are logical and ours are not :rolleyes:

[DezinerPaul]

To have so many world class drivers spin, indicates a real problem with the circumstances. When it rains, they should postpone the race, the only problem is that in parts of Europe, rain is a part of everyday life. What is the point of having an exotic piece of equipment that cannot driven to it's potential. Of course those in Europe will say that the rain is part of the whole thing. For my money, I am not interested standing around uncomfortable in the rain, hardly able to see cars going by, because of the spray and rain. Racing in real rain, is not enjoyable to watch, dangerous and antiquated!

[Daniel]

To have so many world class drivers spin, indicates a real problem with the circumstances. When it rains, they should postpone the race, the only problem is that in parts of Europe, rain is a part of everyday life. What is the point of having an exotic piece of equipment that cannot driven to it's potential. Of course those in Europe will say that the rain is part of the whole thing. For my money, I am not interested standing around uncomfortable in the rain, hardly able to see cars going by, because of the spray and rain. Racing in real rain, is not enjoyable to watch, dangerous and antiquated!
Bah. Load of crap. Rain generally sorts out the men from the boys and allows the drivers to fight on an even footing. I fail to see what's wrong with that. It's no coincidence that it rained and Rubens could have been up to 2nd in a dog of a car if not for the fuel rig problems.

[DezinerPaul]

Bah. Load of crap. Rain generally sorts out the men from the boys and allows the drivers to fight on an even footing. I fail to see what's wrong with that. It's no coincidence that it rained and Rubens could have been up to 2nd in a dog of a car if not for the fuel rig problems.'


Slushing around in the mud, is not my idea of a good afternoon, not to mention that the racing sucks!

[ioan]

ioan, please give me one (1) instance where I have spat venom at Massa?

:laugh:

1? There are at least 11 of them! you don't remember them? Try the search function. I'm not indexing all your biased opinions.

[Daniel]

'


Slushing around in the mud, is not my idea of a good afternoon, not to mention that the racing sucks!
Perhaps it's not all about what you think. If you don't like sport in the rain then why don't you watch tennis? Slightest bit of rain and they stop..... it's not my thing but I don't go on a tennis forum and bitch about it :)

[ioan]

You say there might be an outside reason (screwed car) and then say how Kimi did better and infer that this somehow means Massa is to blame even though something looked to be wrong with his car and then you have the nerve to come and argue that your arguments are logical and ours are not :rolleyes:

Couldn't have put it better. :up:

[DezinerPaul]

Perhaps it's not all about what you think. If you don't like sport in the rain then why don't you watch tennis? Slightest bit of rain and they stop..... it's not my thing but I don't go on a tennis forum and bitch about it :)

What in the Blue Moon does Tennis have to do with this? Rain and road racing suck, I hated having to race in the rain, I hated watching races in the rain. At home, if it is raining the last thing I want to do is go for a drive. My guess is that most fans do not like standing around in the rain, waiting for a few cars to go by unseen. You can bet that are a lot of racers that do not like to race in the rain!

[Daniel]

What in the Blue Moon does Tennis have to do with this? Rain and road racing suck, I hated having to race in the rain, I hated watching races in the rain. At home, if it is raining the last thing I want to do is go for a drive. My guess is that most fans do not like standing around in the rain, waiting for a few cars to go by unseen. You can bet that are a lot of racers that do not like to race in the rain!

I said if you DON'T like watching a sport in the rain then watch tennis because they don't play in the rain. Pretty simple.

As I said before F1 is not simply here to please just you :) Even though the result wasn't what I wanted I quite enjoyed the race yesterday.

[Firstgear]

Black flagged? No. But Ferrari should've pulled him in after about spin #3 and told him there was something wrong with his car (even if there wasn't) just to save his confidence from the bruising.

[DezinerPaul]

I said if you DON'T like watching a sport in the rain then watch tennis because they don't play in the rain. Pretty simple.

As I said before F1 is not simply here to please just you :) Even though the result wasn't what I wanted I quite enjoyed the race yesterday.



Did you watch the race on TV, or at the track.

[SGWilko]

I hated having to race in the rain

:rotflmao: Welcome, Mr Alain!

[SGWilko]

I hated having to race in the rain

:rotflmao: Welcome, Alain!

[N. Jones]

Stupid thread.

Wow, three pages about this means this thread turned into an argument instead of a discussion. I am marking this thread down as another in a long line that I am avoiding. :|

[ioan]

:rotflmao: Welcome, Alain!

:rotflmao:

[Daniel]

Did you watch the race on TV, or at the track.
I've watched many a rally in the rain. Rain (within reason) doesn't both a true motorsport fan or competitor.

[DezinerPaul]

I've watched many a rally in the rain. Rain (within reason) doesn't both a true motorsport fan or competitor.


Ah, Rally, that would explain it, that is not real racing!

[Daniel]

Ah, Rally, that would explain it, that is not real racing!
Well I'll be! There was me wondering why in all my time watching rallying I'd never seen any overtaking :laugh:

[DezinerPaul]

Well I'll be! There was me wondering why in all my time watching rallying I'd never seen any overtaking :laugh:


WRC, is the commercial equivalent of the black death, nobody really cares about it!

[Daniel]

WRC, is the commercial equivalent of the black death, nobody really cares about it!
I'd still much rather go to a WRC event than an F1 event. Just my personal tastes. I think you'll find a lot of people and companies care about the WRC anyway. Perhaps just not yourself. You do know you're opinion is not the same as that of everyone on the planet right?

[Dave B]

To have so many world class drivers spin, indicates a real problem with the circumstances. When it rains, they should postpone the race, the only problem is that in parts of Europe, rain is a part of everyday life. What is the point of having an exotic piece of equipment that cannot driven to it's potential. Of course those in Europe will say that the rain is part of the whole thing. For my money, I am not interested standing around uncomfortable in the rain, hardly able to see cars going by, because of the spray and rain. Racing in real rain, is not enjoyable to watch, dangerous and antiquated!

Exotic equipment? Of course it is, it's supposed to be the premier racing series in the world! It's testiment to the skill of the teams that they can set the cars up for vastly differing weather conditions, and being able to adapt to varying weather is part of the drivers' skillset. Those who can cope best with unpredictable conditions have generally turned out to be the best drivers overall - your mate Schuey being the most obvious example.

Why should races be postponed just becuase of poor weather? This isn't NASCAR! Naturally race control won't endanger drivers, spectators or marshalls; but a bit of rain never hurt anybody.

I think standing at Silverstone or Knockhill or in the Welsh forests, soaked through to the skin, is a rite of passage for any true motorsport fan.

[DezinerPaul]

I'd still much rather go to a WRC event than an F1 event. Just my personal tastes. I think you'll find a lot of people and companies care about the WRC anyway. Perhaps just not yourself. You do know you're opinion is not the same as that of everyone on the planet right?


This is true, of course not everybody has the same opinion, there are however a lot of people who would not give WRC a second look!

[DezinerPaul]

Exotic equipment? Of course it is, it's supposed to be the premier racing series in the world! It's testiment to the skill of the teams that they can set the cars up for vastly differing weather conditions, and being able to adapt to varying weather is part of the drivers' skillset. Those who can cope best with unpredictable conditions have generally turned out to be the best drivers overall - your mate Schuey being the most obvious example.

Why should races be postponed just becuase of poor weather? This isn't NASCAR! Naturally race control won't endanger drivers, spectators or marshalls; but a bit of rain never hurt anybody.

I think standing at Silverstone or Knockhill or in the Welsh forests, soaked through to the skin, is a rite of passage for any true motorsport fan.




"I think standing at Silverstone or Knockhill or in the Welsh forests, soaked through to the skin, is a rite of passage for any true motorsport "


Spoken like true rain soaked Englishman

[MrJan]

Rain is for men. Sissys run inside when it gets wet. This weekends race was actually interesting because of it. Yes there have been days on Epynt, soaked to the skin when I can't see the point but it's far better than going racing and not being able to see anything because the drivers are old women.

[Daniel]

This is true, of course not everybody has the same opinion, there are however a lot of people who would not give WRC a second look!
I know lots of people who wouldn't give F1 a second look either.

Agree with you Dave. Rain and motorsport together are a rite of passage for a true motorsport fan :up:

[DezinerPaul]

Rain is for men. Sissys run inside when it gets wet. This weekends race was actually interesting because of it. Yes there have been days on Epynt, soaked to the skin when I can't see the point but it's far better than going racing and not being able to see anything because the drivers are old women.



What else can a person living soggy Britain say?

[MrJan]

What else can a person living soggy Britain say?

If I'm watching the best in the world then I'd like to know that they can drive in all kinds of conditions. Personally I hate driving in the wet but then I'm a long way from being the world's best driver :D

And yes Britain has rain. If we stopped races because it was wet then we wouldn't see half the motorsport that we do. Yet still we have championships which give rise to some of the best drivers in the world (of the current grid I can think of 8 that came through the ranks in the UK. 4 of them finished in points at the weekend :D

[Mickey T]

this thread began with a question and, with the kind of visibility on offer at silverstone, it's a question worth asking.

for mine, no, he shouldn't have been black flagged.

that said, it might have been worth the stewards' time to pop down to ferrari and ask a couple of pertinent questions, such as 'is there a mechanical reason for this succession of spins?' or 'did he have a big night on the turps last night?'.

if there was a mechanical reason, they could have meatballed him.

i'd almost turn it the other way and ask why it wasn't declared a wet race to begin with, thereby mandating full wets.

more concerning than massa's spins (bearing in mind that the five i saw him have were on the exits of two corners) were the incidents involving kubica and sutil.

deciding how to get on the throttle on the exit is a key part of a driver's job and, for whatever reason, massa struggled to do that yesterday. that could have been that they went more aggressively dry on setup hoping the track would clear or any number of things.

when people start aquaplaning, it's not their fault and they are passengers.

that's much, much more of a worry.

[yodasarmpit]

No need to black flag in my opinion.

[Mark]

I know you are trolling but you are right it rains in Britain far too bloomin much.

[Hawkmoon]

Every driver, with the possible exception of Heidfeld and Barrichello, had at least one "off" on the weekend. Even Hamilton, who was in a class of 1, had a moment, so black flagging Massa would have been a bit extreme. Webber was almost as bad and he's generally considered as being a good wet weather driver.

I say give the guy a break. He didn't hit anything or anyone, unlike DC, yet again!

[airshifter]

I thought the original question was very valid, and it was clearly stated as not being directed at Massa or any specific driver.

Regardless of the race, driver or conditions, at what point is it obvious that a driver is not driving within their abilities and creating a hazard to other drivers on the race track? There were a number of spins by a number of drivers, but none of them do anything for safety of the other drivers that manage to stay on track. At what point to you pull the plug and tell a driver to stop?


I personally think if one of the crap back of the field drivers had spun so many times the opinions of many would be different.

Also as a comment related, cheers to Heiki and the many others that managed incredible car control and giant slides in a number of corners rather than letting the car spin. There were some incredible saves in that race!

[ArrowsFA1]

Also as a comment related, cheers to Heiki and the many others that managed incredible car control and giant slides in a number of corners rather than letting the car spin. There were some incredible saves in that race!
Yeah, that's a good point :up: We tend to focus on the spins and errors, but every corner of every lap must have been an adventure for all the drivers :eek:

[Storm]

There was actually a shot just after Hamilton had passed Kovalainen when the 2 McLarens went sideways through a corner one after the other....incredible to see :up:

[TMorel]

I don't care how rubbish even the poorest driver on that grid is considered, to even get that car round a single lap is damn impressive and much more than I could ever do (unless I'm playing on the playstation obviously)

I think if any car had been losing control as often as Massa and others in a dry race but still refusing to park it then yes, race control should consider black flagging them, but in those conditions, no it wouldn't have been the right call.

[Knock-on]

this thread began with a question and, with the kind of visibility on offer at silverstone, it's a question worth asking.

for mine, no, he shouldn't have been black flagged.

that said, it might have been worth the stewards' time to pop down to ferrari and ask a couple of pertinent questions, such as 'is there a mechanical reason for this succession of spins?' or 'did he have a big night on the turps last night?'.

if there was a mechanical reason, they could have meatballed him.

i'd almost turn it the other way and ask why it wasn't declared a wet race to begin with, thereby mandating full wets.

more concerning than massa's spins (bearing in mind that the five i saw him have were on the exits of two corners) were the incidents involving kubica and sutil.

deciding how to get on the throttle on the exit is a key part of a driver's job and, for whatever reason, massa struggled to do that yesterday. that could have been that they went more aggressively dry on setup hoping the track would clear or any number of things.

when people start aquaplaning, it's not their fault and they are passengers.

that's much, much more of a worry.

I think that's pretty much my opinion as well.

It's a difficult question but I like your idea of the FIA officials requiring an explanation from the team as to whether there is an issue.

I always tend to look at the "what if" scenario and "if" Massa had of had spin #5 into Lewis, I think I would have been pi$$ed off. I also imaging that if Massa had have had spin #5 in Kimi, taking both Ferrari's out, ioan would have been justifiably upset.

If there was a mechanical issue with the car that rendered him dangerous, then like any other driver, he should have been brought in to correct it or retire.

If there was nothing wrong, it is very hard to black flag someone who cannot keep it on the island at this level. It's not a Formula Ford race but F1. The conditions were very challenging and thankfully he didn't collide with anyone.

[Knock-on]

:laugh:

1? There are at least 11 of them! you don't remember them? Try the search function. I'm not indexing all your biased opinions.

So, basically you cannot find one :p :

Talking lies again :D

[ioan]

So, basically you cannot find one :p :

Talking lies again :D

I just have better things to do. As soon as I'll get some spare time I'll take a look in the threads bashing Massa, there will surely be some cases! :D

[AJP]

As far As I know...Webber spun twice...I may well be wrong of course.
As for the fogging of the visor, anyone who has raced in the wet will know that this happens all the time.

[Knock-on]

I just have better things to do. As soon as I'll get some spare time I'll take a look in the threads bashing Massa, there will surely be some cases! :D

I'm sure there will.

Please post examples so I can conceed you are correct.

[truefan72]

Black flagged? No. But Ferrari should've pulled him in after about spin #3 and told him there was something wrong with his car (even if there wasn't) just to save his confidence from the bruising.

precisely

it was obvious that he was just toiling around out there,

and in one of his maneuvers to correct his spin, he came dangerously close to hitting a driver going at top speed. I believe that was in abby.

[call_me_andrew]

I did not watch the race, but I have seen hilights of it. And from those I learned that Ferrari had Massa double-stint intermediate tires just before the rain became harder and did not put him on full-wet tires. Fingers should be pointing at Ferrari, not Massa.

I think it's rained at almost half of the races I've ever been to. Unfortunetly they've all been at paved ovals and drag strips.

[Jimbo Mc]

I was at silverstone and spent most of the race laughing at massa. I felt a bit sorry for him but even the massa fans standing next to us wished he would just give up!!!

[Valve Bounce]

Not having a go at Massa specifically but in his own words, he doesn't have a clue why he couldn't keep it on the Island. He had a minimum of 5 spinns and spent more time going backwards in the GP than forwards.

When doe an occassional "off" become a continuing danger to other competitors?

He obviously couldn't drive the car on Inters so either play safe and go full wets or get out the way before he takes someone else off?

You want to lay off that cool aid stuff, Knockie.

[DezinerPaul]

If I'm watching the best in the world then I'd like to know that they can drive in all kinds of conditions. Personally I hate driving in the wet but then I'm a long way from being the world's best driver :D

And yes Britain has rain. If we stopped races because it was wet then we wouldn't see half the motorsport that we do. Yet still we have championships which give rise to some of the best drivers in the world (of the current grid I can think of 8 that came through the ranks in the UK. 4 of them finished in points at the weekend :D


How many are English?

[Knock-on]

You want to lay off that cool aid stuff, Knockie.

Care to explain VB. Never very good with the cryptic remarks. Hell, I misunderstand people when they're not being cryptic :D