Danica Patrick crashes in Pits - again...

[SoCalPVguy]

That woman is a menace to the crews !!!

[NickFalzone]

This could very well be an occasion where she just drove it too hard out of her pit box, but it could also have been a steering issue. Between the paddle-shifter/electronics issues, I'm willing to guess that there's more to this story than simply "Danica screwed up".

[anthonyvop]

This could very well be an occasion where she just drove it too hard out of her pit box, but it could also have been a steering issue. Between the paddle-shifter/electronics issues, I'm willing to guess that there's more to this story than simply "Danica screwed up".
Steering issue?

Ah the steered fine after she almost killed some pit crew members......again!

[Chris Herr]

I think it's more of a case of "Danica screwed up!", as did Milka Duno and Scott Dixon. What scares me about Danica's incident is how exposed and vulnerable crew menbers are.

[FORMULA-A]

What scares me is the media not talking about it all. Scott Dixon has not backed down from his criticism of her driving and from what i have (not) heard and as AUTOWEEK reported the other drivers coming to her defense is NILL.

[NickFalzone]

In other words, her steering was a bit off to the right when entering the pits, and when she accelerated quickly out she didn't have any time to zero it. Theres #'s on the dash that show this, but obviously she wasn't paying attention. I would say this is about as dumb a move as Dixon made, but not more so.

[Rogelio]

Without a doubt, it looks like Danica simply screwed up. The ICS, along with the media have built her up and placed her on a pedestal. She has more that welcomed the hype and overbilling, now will see if she is willing to accept responsibilty.

I personally believe that Danica has mediocre ability and on a road course, which is more demanding and more reflective of a driver's talent, she clearly shows that she is not a top driver.

[e2mtt]

I recall that in her first couple of years, she made a pit-road or caution mistake almost every race... I made the comment here on this forum years ago that I just didn't think she had the mental capacity to be a top-level driver. That was a pure engage-throttle, disengage-brain moment there.

Of course I'm not sure what went wrong with Dixon either, except "mistakes breed mistakes, and cautions breed cautions"

[Jag_Warrior]

Sports Center just showed it. :eek:

I've seen drivers come in hot and get crossed up with the pit crew (usually their own). But I can honestly say, I have never seen anyone do anything close to that before. Yeah, I think there was something wrong with her steering: the person holding the wheel.

Luckily no one was killed. ESPN didn't say if any of the Target guys were injured or not. They didn't hold the shot long enough to show if anyone smacked her upside her helmet, but they should have. Wonder who or what she'll blame for this one?

[gofastandwynn]

Sports Center just showed it. :eek:

I've seen drivers come in hot and get crossed up with the pit crew (usually their own). But I can honestly say, I have never seen anyone do anything close to that before. Yeah, I think there was something wrong with her steering: the person holding the wheel.



I remember Mario Andretti doing that right infront of me at Michigan in 93 or 94, and seeing people spin leaving the pits on cold tires quite often in the CART days...

EDIT: Found the video on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jjZkTqk3Os About the 14:00 min mark

[Chris R]

Unfortunately, I did not get to see the race (sad day that F-1 was not on at 7.30AM - it is the only time I get to watch a whole race, AND I could only watch the start of the Indycars before running out the door...)

Anyway, it sounds like a serious incident and it got NO coverage of significance anywhere I could fine easily last night or this morning.....

It sounds like she made a pretty big mistake and it smacks of NASCAR that it i=has not received the attention of Dixon's brain-fade.....

Must be something in the water up there....

[anthonyvop]

I think it's more of a case of "Danica screwed up!", as did Milka Duno and Scott Dixon. What scares me about Danica's incident is how exposed and vulnerable crew menbers are.


And what about Foyt4? Milka might have had to move over to avoid hitting the car in front but was was Foyt4 doing there anyway? He was suppose to be behind her.

OMG Did I just defend Milka?

[beachbum]

What is it with the Danica! fans? Have they caught the "blame the other person" disease from her? Whenever she shows a lack of judgment or makes a mistake, they always seem to try to deflect or minimize the situation by presenting some conspiracy theory that makes no sense. Either she had a valid "reason", it was someone else's fault, driver xyz did something even worse, the story is made up, or there was something wrong with the car. She ALWAYS has something wrong with her car. Its steering problems, understeer, no rear grip, yatta yatta yatta. Its never her fault according to them. In this case, some silly fans have even suggested the Dixon crew threw the tire in front of her causing a crash. Incredible. At least BB had the guts to finally penalize her, even if it was just a drive-through.

If you want to see the video, it is at indy500.com. Unlike indycar.com, they post every incident in the video library and let you judge for yourself. The question I have is why did she even think it was ok to do a long smoky burn out through all of the other pit boxes. NONE of the other drivers in the video saw any need to play top-fuel dragster and they all moved out into the proper pit lane after leaving their pit. What was her problem?

However, someone posted a video on YouTube that has a bit more. After she hit the wall, only one of Danica!'s crew started down pit lane and then stopped. They turned around and walked slowly back to their pit. I do remember watching the online coverage and her crew turned around and looked the other way. When the crew did finally wonder down to pull her back, they walked pretty slowly. I guess when you throw your team under the bus on a regular basis their motivation level isn't very high.

[DrDomm]

I remember Mario Andretti doing that right infront of me at Michigan in 93 or 94, and seeing people spin leaving the pits on cold tires quite often in the CART days...

If Mario spins in the pits, and Danica spins in the pits, Danica must be as good as Mario...?

Good point.

[Chris R]

I watched the Indy500.com video and also read the story in autosport.com this morning about the race and it quoted Danica as saying she hit a tire that caused her to spin - it also said she apologized for the incident.

I am glad she apologized. The video does not seem to show her hitting anything to cause the spin- just getting on the gas too hard and losing control of the car - kind of like a teenage guy showing off if you ask me.... although I wonder i the diff did something funny or if there might be some traction control device that kicked in suddenly (you know -like the one at Bennetton in 1995 that they "forgot" to remove from the software but was not working ;) !!)

Well, at least both of the top openwheel series racing this weekend seemed to exhibit an unusual amount of brain fade (although at least conditions at Silverstone warranted mistakes)...

Hey, sometimes I kill perfectly good plants doing stupid things ( I am a 4th generation nursery owner and grow 500,000+/- shrubs a year).... it can happen.....

[Chris R]

If Mario spins in the pits, and Danica spins in the pits, Danica must be as good as Mario...?

Good point.

Mario had his share of brain fade in his day... you gotta love the safety truck incident.... It seems to me he was pretty good a deflecting blame too... almost as good as Danica....

that being said - well, obviously, Danica is no Mario (I don't really think that was implied - but I do not want anyone to think I even come close to thinking there is a legit comparison of their driving skills).

[DrDomm]

Yeah, I was just joking about the Mario thing.

I was at the Glen. I did see a tire get away, and originally thought it came off of her car. However, there was a replay on the "big screen", and it looked like the loose tire was behind her. She definitely had 4 tires on her car after the incident.

[Dagger]

No connection between right foot and frontal lobe?

[Chris R]

No connection between right foot and frontal lobe?

Perhaps the "fly-by-wire" connection between the CPU and throttle actuator failed :D

[JSH]

It's a pity Briscoe wasn't alongside her so that he could've helped straighten her up....

[anthonyvop]

It would be interesting to see how many Pit road incidents Danica has had over her career in the IRL compared to other drivers in the same time period.

[Gluaistean]

And what about Foyt4? Milka might have had to move over to avoid hitting the car in front but was was Foyt4 doing there anyway? He was suppose to be behind her.

OMG Did I just defend Milka?

Yes you did and in fact I have to agree with you. This is one time that I think Duno deserves the benefit of the doubt. She moved to avoid whomever was in front of her. She is the one that got hit. When I saw Foyt gesticulating ,pounding the steering wheel etcetra it gave the impression of being wronged. Sorry.

As for Danica, well, her ability to take out crews and cars is only surpassed by the adulation bestowed on her by ESPN and Jack Arute.

[OWFan19]

Dancia is so protected that if you discuss her in any negative light over at the other forum, you will be suspended(me and others), the thread will be closed down, yada yada yada. I am suprised the moderators have not shut this down.

I have seen nothing on SportsCenter, nothing but baseball and Tennis. Danica is off limits. Funny how she calls out Briscoe, makes a big stink of his incident, but she is mum on hers.

[downtowndeco]

She's good , she's bad, she has talent she is talentless etc etc etc.

Another long tread debating her merits means she's worth every penny she gets paid because people do like to talk about her.

[beachbum]

Dancia is so protected that if you discuss her in any negative light over at the other forum, you will be suspended(me and others), the thread will be closed down, yada yada yada. I am suprised the moderators have not shut this down.

I have seen nothing on SportsCenter, nothing but baseball and Tennis. Danica is off limits. Funny how she calls out Briscoe, makes a big stink of his incident, but she is mum on hers.Ain't that the truth. Ok, just for the record (I hope we are still allowed to present factual data), anyone can go to indy500.com and view the incident frame by frame on the video. A couple things pop out and offer some explanations.

1. She did apparently hit a tire leaving her pit, her own left rear. The video shows it in the air and apparently hit by Mutoh. That may indeed be the cause of the drive through.

2. When she hit the tire, it didn't change her trajectory, the car remained straight as shown from her in-car looking out the back.

3. The in-car shows her car actually began to rotate toward pit wall before her left rear hit the paint. The tire marks shows a consistent arc out and over the paint.

4. After she hit the wall, an official can be seen being helped up by one of Wheldon's crew after they dove over the wall. The official had been standing just before the point where she hit the wall.

5. Dixons whole crew was over the wall, including his fueler still holding the hose. He dove over the wall right at the instant of impact.

6. The tire she hit was being held by a crewman who appeared to reach for it to put over the wall just she hit it.

7. When she hit the wall, she let off the brake and slid down the wall a small amount until she hit the tire.

8. The tire impact lifted her whole car into the air and deflected it back into pitlane and not along the wall where the crew was standing. The tire helped prevent them from being hit directly

9. Her wing did hit at least one crewman including the one who set it on top of her front tires.

10. Dixons crew then just walked away. No one was in any hurry to come to her aid, including her own crew.

She was very lucky as she hit between where people were moving along the wall (as they would be right after a stop) and the tire pushed her away from the crew. That was very close to a disaster. One can only guess what would have happened if the official was a bit less observant or agile or she would have pinned the fueler to the wall. I can accept her apology, but lets see if it changes her behavior next time.

I do expect that the apologists will tear this apart like the Zapruter film and provide all kinds of explanantions. Thats ok, everyone has their own opinions. This happens to be mine.

By the way, some celebrities today get lots of press but lots of negative press doesn't improve your value, it eventually destroys it in a very public way.

[Blancvino]

She's good , she's bad, she has talent she is talentless etc etc etc.

Another long tread debating her merits means she's worth every penny she gets paid because people do like to talk about her.


Spoken like a true believer. Any one up for aother glass of Jim Jones Grape?

[downtowndeco]

Spoken like a true believer. Any one up for aother glass of Jim Jones Grape?


Don't read something into my post that isn't there just because you have a bias.

People like her. They like to talk about her. She helps the IRL through her populartity. Perhaps that is the true reason so many have a beef with her. They'd love to see the IRL falter & fade like that other series. You know, the "If we can succeed we don't want anyone to succeed" mentality.

[Blancvino]

Don't read something into my post that isn't there just because you have a bias.

People like her. They like to talk about her. She helps the IRL through her populartity. Perhaps that is the true reason so many have a beef with her. They'd love to see the IRL falter & fade like that other series. You know, the "If we can succeed we don't want anyone to succeed" mentality.

I'll let your post history do the talking.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=318852

[cartpix]

I think she owes Brisco an apology, too.

Jeff

[downtowndeco]

I'll let your post history do the talking.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=318852

Likewise.

[weeflyonthewall]

Is Danica really blonde? If its true she reported her car was pulling a little to the right then why didn't she compensate when leaving the pits? Lighting up the rears like that just amplified the problem. Its a blessing nobody got hurt.

[Chris R]

For Danica supporters and detractors alike - I am not sure this incident has much to do with "Danica" per se. It is about a professional racing driver who has been willing to publicly call out his/her fellow drivers on more than one occasion. It is about the same driver making a VERY big and VERY amateur mistake and therefore reaping what he/she sows....

[MDS]

There was no tire, the paint didn't twist her car around. She lost it, that smiple. She isn't the greatest driver in the world. Yes she is the best woman out there, but she is still an average driver who gets far more stress and attention than her skills warrant.

One reason this incident is getting so much attention is that the racing was just so dull. More happened under those two caution periods than happened on track the entire race. I know it has history and the drivers like it, but it needs to go. Bring on Cleveland on the 4th of July next year.

[garyshell]

There was no tire, the paint didn't twist her car around. She lost it, that smiple. She isn't the greatest driver in the world. Yes she is the best woman out there, but she is still an average driver who gets far more stress and attention than her skills warrant.

One reason this incident is getting so much attention is that the racing was just so dull. More happened under those two caution periods than happened on track the entire race. I know it has history and the drivers like it, but it needs to go. Bring on Cleveland on the 4th of July next year.


There WAS a tire, look at the video at www.indy500.com (http://www.indy500.com) . It can be seen in the air. What is NOT clear from the video is if she actually hit it or not. And what is even LESS clear is did it REALLY affect here pit exit. From the video posted on indy500.com it does not look like it affected her trajectory at all. I too, think she lit up the tires WAY too much and lost it.

Gary

[jarrambide]

For Danica supporters and detractors alike - I am not sure this incident has much to do with "Danica" per se. It is about a professional racing driver who has been willing to publicly call out his/her fellow drivers on more than one occasion. It is about the same driver making a VERY big and VERY amateur mistake and therefore reaping what he/she sows....

My thoughts exactly, but as I mentioned last week when Manning publicly call out his fellow drivers, the outrage is less when is a man, almost no one got outrage at Manning.

If Manning makes a mistake I will feel he was reaping what he sows, but I don´t think the thread would be as long as this one.

[BenRoethig]

Looked like she forgot you turn left to get out of the pits at the glen instead of right.

[Chris R]

oh yeah - the tire is there - it looks like her front left tire - but like Gary says - it does not look like that caused the issue unless it just got her out of synch mentally.....

[pits4me]

Actually she came in contact with three tires.

One saved a Penkse crew member from possible injury, the tire in the 2nd clip followed her down pit lane, the tire in the 3rd clip went backwards and appeared to hit the car behind her. She couldn't pull out left because the car had not moved over. She would have been better off waiting for the car to go by instead of fighting for the position. Who gave her the green light to leave the pit box anyway? No wonder the crew didn't run to her rescue.....

[harvick#1]

after seeing the video, she lost control, maybe from smoking the tires for that long, but I never saw her hit a tire causing her to lose control, she lost it on her own, luckly none of the Target pitcrew members were hit, this could've been much worse than it really was.

plus the Target guys aren't gonna care about Danica, I think most of of them prolly has has enough of her, so they picked up their stuff and carried on with their job in hand (along with the one member basically kicking the front wing back to her)

[pits4me]

Yes she is the best woman out there


In the ICS. Katherine Legge might be surprising given a comparable opportunity.


she is still an average driver who gets far more stress and attention than her skills warrant.

Every series needs a drama queen. This one just happens to wear a dress on her evening out.

[coogmaster]

Get a load of this:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/SPORTS0107/807070335

Apparently, the excuse this time is that "paint is always slippery." Of course, there is NO WAY it could have been complete driver error.

Love Kanaan's comment at the end... "The paint might be slippery, but its been there all weekend."

[Chris R]

Based on that article, she pretty much admitted it was a stupid mistake. good for her - as long as she can accept blame as well as dish it out than I do not have a problem (not that what I think matters for a hill of beans!! ;) )

[gofastandwynn]

In the ICS. Katherine Legge might be surprising given a comparable opportunity.



Well, maybe. Lets look at the stats.

Legge never had a top 5 finish in CC, best season ending points finish was 15th, and is currently ranked 19th out of 19 in the DTM.

[garyshell]

In the ICS. Katherine Legge might be surprising given a comparable opportunity.


Well, maybe. Lets look at the stats.

Legge never had a top 5 finish in CC, best season ending points finish was 15th...

And which part of "given a comparable opportunity" didn't you understand?

Gary

[MDS]

My thoughts exactly, but as I mentioned last week when Manning publicly call out his fellow drivers, the outrage is less when is a man, almost no one got outrage at Manning.

If Manning makes a mistake I will feel he was reaping what he sows, but I don´t think the thread would be as long as this one.

There is a big difference in their levels of visibility. I barely know who Darren Manning is. Typically he's a non-factor. Yes I know Danica is an non-factor as well, but I don't see Darren Manning in a thin speedo in the SI swimsuit edtion.


Well, maybe. Lets look at the stats.

Legge never had a top 5 finish in CC, best season ending points finish was 15th, and is currently ranked 19th out of 19 in the DTM.

In Kat's defense she won two Atlantic races against the similar fields Danica raced in. Also she never wrecked a car coming in to make pit stop, Took out her own teammate in the pits, rammed the side of another car under caution, spun out and nearly injured a pit crew, walked down pit road to create a public incident nor has she pushed and shoved another driver in the garage.

I think Legge's career is pretty much done unless Derrick Walker can find some money. He was reportedly high on her and was working on a third car for her in 2008. I doubt we'll see much of her in this country again. I hope I'm wrong, but I think she's done with the US.

[icehammer97]

Looking at the video, and being able to see it at the track from where I was sitting. The tire in question in DP's pits is her left rear it is not moving at all until Mutoh hits it. It has nothing to do with the spin and the paint excuse is the worst I have ever heard. There is paint all weekend and in every pit and DP is the only one that has that problem... haha right.

On the DP vs Legge argument. Yes in the top level DP has better results but Legge won a few races in Atlantics where DP could never finish in the top few spots so I could see her doing better, espically on road courses, then DP if she was in an AGR car.

[BobGarage]

In Kat's defense she won two Atlantic races against the similar fields Danica raced in.

three race wins ;)



I think Legge's career is pretty much done unless Derrick Walker can find some money.

she's got a full time ride for audi in dtm (albeit in a 2 year+ old car) she's not coming back even if walker finds money.

[MDS]

three race wins ;)



she's got a full time ride for audi in dtm (albeit in a 2 year+ old car) she's not coming back even if walker finds money.

I'm sorry, I meant to say her career is done in America. I thought it, but didn't write it apparently.

[pits4me]

And which part of "given a comparable opportunity" didn't you understand?

Gary

The part that doesn't fit with gofastandwynn's agenda Gary. Lead dog in the
DP prognosticator pack often avoids the fact Danica had almost 3 times the racing experience at junior formula level than Kat. That demonstrates just how quickly Legge adapted to the top rung. We'll never know how she would do in ICS with a AGR level team but her first oval race in Milwaukee (6th place) took many by surprise.

[pits4me]

three race wins ;)
she's got a full time ride for audi in dtm (albeit in a 2 year+ old car) she's not coming back even if walker finds money.

Similar situation to other first season Audi drivers. It would be a treat to see her in an Audi LMP1 (ALMS) at Long Beach next season.

[gofastandwynn]

In Kat's defense she won two Atlantic races against the similar fields Danica raced in. Also she never wrecked a car coming in to make pit stop, Took out her own teammate in the pits, rammed the side of another car under caution, spun out and nearly injured a pit crew, walked down pit road to create a public incident nor has she pushed and shoved another driver in the garage.


Similar fields? in quantity, but certainly not quality and argureably one of the weakest Formula Atlantic fields in history.

In 2004 you had Jon Fogarty winning his 2nd Atlantic championship, with Ryan Dalziel 2nd, Danica 3rd & Andrew Ranger 4th.

In 2005 you had Charles Zwolsman 1st, Tõnis Kasemets 2nd, and in a tie for 3rd Legge and Antoine Bessette (who I think is selling cars somewhere now)

For compairson Kasemets finished the season in 13th in 2004.

As far as lap times go, lets look at a comparison

2004 Pole time / Danica Q time
2005 Pole Time / Legge Q Time

Long Beach
2004 Dalziel : 1:18.563 / Danica : 1:19.275
2005 Bessette : 1:19.375 / Legge : 1:20.027

Monterry
2004 Dalziel : 1:24.753 / Danica : 1:25.341
2005 Zwolsman : 1:26.831 / Legge : 1:28.863

Portland 1
2004 Fogarty : 1:08.404 / Danica : 1:08.686
2005 Wirth : 1:08.546 / Legge : 1:10.710

Portland 2
2004 Danica : 1:07.155 (Pole)
2005 Kasemets : 1:09.152 / Legge : 1:13.347

Cleveland
2004 Dalziel : 1:06.447 / Danica : 1:07.727
2005 Zwolsman : 1:07.854 / Legge : 1:08.542

Toronto
2004 Fogarty : 1:05.803 / Danica : 1:06.430
2005 Zwolsman : 1:07.335 / Legge : 1:07.944

Road America
2004 Dalziel : 1:59.504 / Danica : 2:00.970
2005 Kasemets : 2:01.747 / Legge : 2:02.871

Montreal
2004 Fogarty : 1:32.913 / Danica : 1:33.376
2005 Martinez : 1:35.084 / Legge : 1:35.970

And even with Legge's 3 wins, she still scored less points that Danica did.

[LTalbot]

The Danica vs. Katherine argument is just silly. The only conclusion that can be reached in the end is that they are both racers and deserve to be taken seriously. Sure I wish Legge survived the blendification and was racing here now, but I also wish Paul Tracy, and Nelson Phillipe and some other really fast drivers who only wanted to be paid for their services were in the series. But it is what it is and that boat has sailed, so we need to move on.

Regardless of what her teamates think of her, and really, most drivers would run over their mothers for a race win, The bottom line is Danica finishes ahead of more equally talented male drivers than she finishes behind.

[pits4me]

You assume track conditions and weather were identical. I know for a fact there was rain in Portland and a slight change to Clevelend because they added the stupid barrel in turn 1 that caused major problems with both CC and Atlantics.

Its also obvious you didn't speak to any of the returning Atlantic drivers, engineers or teams otherwise you might have known the year over year performance drop from 2004 to 2005 was due more to rule changes than driver quality.

Besides minor chassis mods there was also the mandated change to Hasselgren built 4A-GE engines and drop in rpm limit to help the engines last more races. All in the spirit of controlling escallating costs. The performance delta was not the same at all venues. Pre-season testing pegged the difference around 1.4 m.p.h.

Instead of comparing pole times, maybe you should consider comparing aggregate or best race lap times. Your darling Danica ran 1:18.937 (89.753 mph) while Kat ran 1:19.145 (89.517 mph). When you factor in the 1 mph difference in pace between the seasons, Kat was actually faster than DP and Bessette faster than Dalziel.

Everything is not as black and white as you'd like it to be.


Similar fields? in quantity, but certainly not quality and argureably one of the weakest Formula Atlantic fields in history.

In 2004 you had Jon Fogarty winning his 2nd Atlantic championship, with Ryan Dalziel 2nd, Danica 3rd & Andrew Ranger 4th.

In 2005 you had Charles Zwolsman 1st, Tõnis Kasemets 2nd, and in a tie for 3rd Legge and Antoine Bessette (who I think is selling cars somewhere now)

For compairson Kasemets finished the season in 13th in 2004.

As far as lap times go, lets look at a comparison

2004 Pole time / Danica Q time
2005 Pole Time / Legge Q Time

Long Beach
2004 Dalziel : 1:18.563 / Danica : 1:19.275
2005 Bessette : 1:19.375 / Legge : 1:20.027

Monterry
2004 Dalziel : 1:24.753 / Danica : 1:25.341
2005 Zwolsman : 1:26.831 / Legge : 1:28.863

Portland 1
2004 Fogarty : 1:08.404 / Danica : 1:08.686
2005 Wirth : 1:08.546 / Legge : 1:10.710

Portland 2
2004 Danica : 1:07.155 (Pole)
2005 Kasemets : 1:09.152 / Legge : 1:13.347

Cleveland
2004 Dalziel : 1:06.447 / Danica : 1:07.727
2005 Zwolsman : 1:07.854 / Legge : 1:08.542

Toronto
2004 Fogarty : 1:05.803 / Danica : 1:06.430
2005 Zwolsman : 1:07.335 / Legge : 1:07.944

Road America
2004 Dalziel : 1:59.504 / Danica : 2:00.970
2005 Kasemets : 2:01.747 / Legge : 2:02.871

Montreal
2004 Fogarty : 1:32.913 / Danica : 1:33.376
2005 Martinez : 1:35.084 / Legge : 1:35.970

And even with Legge's 3 wins, she still scored less points that Danica did.

[Jag_Warrior]

I remember Mario Andretti doing that right infront of me at Michigan in 93 or 94, and seeing people spin leaving the pits on cold tires quite often in the CART days...

EDIT: Found the video on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jjZkTqk3Os About the 14:00 min mark

You enabled me to go back in time 15 years and hang out for 37 minutes. For that I thank you greatly. Watching two World Driving Champions battle it out at Michigan warmed my heart.

The only similarity that I see between Mario's incident and Danica's is that they both lost control of their cars while leaving the pits. But that's where the similarity ends. Mario didn't hit anything (or anyone), didn't go flying through anyone else's pits... and even lit a nasty bootleg that brought the crowd to a roar with his daring and skill. He was just a bad mutha... Shut yo mouth! Hey, I'm talkin' about Mario Andretti! Danica, on the other hand... I understand that Ralph Nader has a search party out looking for her today. IMO, this is simply another example of her talent and skill level not meeting with the hype that surrounds her. Nothing more. Nothing less.

How about that Mario looking all fresh & cool after 500 hard miles and Mansell looking like a whipped dog? 14 years older and the old man still had that jazz!

And I do mean it: thanks for posting that YouTube link. For anyone that can't spare 37 minutes to be REALLY happy, skip ahead to 14 minutes in.

[ShiftingGears]

It's pretty unfortunate that IndyCar has to resort to promoting itself through Danica to gain ratings.

[Jag_Warrior]

My thoughts exactly, but as I mentioned last week when Manning publicly call out his fellow drivers, the outrage is less when is a man, almost no one got outrage at Manning.

If Manning makes a mistake I will feel he was reaping what he sows, but I don´t think the thread would be as long as this one.

Manning, a driver with an impressive racing resume (much more impressive than Danica's), but largely unknown in the U.S. Even though he has more lifetime pro championships than she has lifetime pro wins, Manning is nothing more than a face in the crowd in the U.S. No one mentioned anything that he might have said (what did he say anyway?) probably because almost no one knows who he is. I saw him a few times years ago. But by now, I doubt I could pick him out in a 2 person lineup. While her PR team likely rivals the size of Manning's pitcrew.

Other than being a female, I respectfully ask, what else does Danica have going for her? Emotion aside. Really. What? An F3 win or two? A Barber-Dodge championship? Even a single win? Anything? Danica finally won a pro race this year. And I congratulate her on that accomplishment. But at what point can we speak of her in racing terms, without someone having to defend her using her gender as a basis?

Here's how I see it:
Angelle Sampey is an accomplished racer.
At best, Danica Patrick is an accomplished female racer.

It would be hard to spin it otherwise, IMO.

[jarrambide]

Manning, a driver with an impressive racing resume (much more impressive than Danica's), but largely unknown in the U.S. Even though he has more lifetime pro championships than she has lifetime pro wins, Manning is nothing more than a face in the crowd in the U.S. No one mentioned anything that he might have said (what did he say anyway?) probably because almost no one knows who he is. I saw him a few times years ago. But by now, I doubt I could pick him out in a 2 person lineup. While her PR team likely rivals the size of Manning's pitcrew.

Other than being a female, I respectfully ask, what else does Danica have going for her? Emotion aside. Really. What? An F3 win or two? A Barber-Dodge championship? Even a single win? Anything? Danica finally won a pro race this year. And I congratulate her on that accomplishment. But at what point can we speak of her in racing terms, without someone having to defend her using her gender as a basis?

Here's how I see it:
Angelle Sampey is an accomplished racer.
At best, Danica Patrick is an accomplished female racer.

It would be hard to spin it otherwise, IMO.

Are we talking about the same Manning?, I´m talking about Darren Manning, the Darren Manning that is in his 4th year in the IRL and after 51 starts has not a single win in his "impressive" resume, the same Darren Manning that after 51 stars has one podium, the one he got last weekend.

I´m talking about the Darren Manning that in 19 starts in CART/CC had no wins and only one podium.

I´m talking about the Darren Manning that in 21 starts in Formula 3000 had no wins, he had 2 podiums, but no wins.

The last time Manning won was in 1999, in the Japan Formula 3 series, he was the champion, but not even winning a single race after winning a Formula 3 series is not impressive.

I dislike Patrick a lot, I hate the fact she feels she is so good that with only one win under her resume she calls other drivers amateurs and stupids, but seeing that a driver like Manning with no wins at all on a major formula, a driver that has not won a race in 9 years and has only 4 podiums in those 9 years gets a free pass for saying the same things as Danica, a free pass because he is a male driver, not only that, his resume is called impressive (much more impressive than Danica´s) to keep bashing Danica.

Danica is also on her 4th year as an Indy Car driver, she has 1 win (one more than Manning), and 3 more podiums (obviously a total of 4 with the win), 3 more than Manning. She was in the Atlantic series for 2 years(2003 and 2004), no wins, but 4 podiums.

Manning from 2000 until 2008, no wins and 4 podiums, Patrick from 2003 until 2008 1 win and 8 podiums (including her win), none have an impressive resume, and is unfair to compare different teams and formulas, but Manning definitively has not a resume better than Danica, but he gets a free ride.

My point is still the same, I dislike drivers, specially non stellar drivers like Manning and Patrick, calling out other drivers, but I see that Patrick gets more heat than male drivers.

[gofastandwynn]

You assume track conditions and weather were identical. I know for a fact there was rain in Portland and a slight change to Clevelend because they added the stupid barrel in turn 1 that caused major problems with both CC and Atlantics.

Its also obvious you didn't speak to any of the returning Atlantic drivers, engineers or teams otherwise you might have known the year over year performance drop from 2004 to 2005 was due more to rule changes than driver quality.

Besides minor chassis mods there was also the mandated change to Hasselgren built 4A-GE engines and drop in rpm limit to help the engines last more races. All in the spirit of controlling escallating costs. The performance delta was not the same at all venues. Pre-season testing pegged the difference around 1.4 m.p.h.

Instead of comparing pole times, maybe you should consider comparing aggregate or best race lap times. Your darling Danica ran 1:18.937 (89.753 mph) while Kat ran 1:19.145 (89.517 mph). When you factor in the 1 mph difference in pace between the seasons, Kat was actually faster than DP and Bessette faster than Dalziel.

Everything is not as black and white as you'd like it to be.

If I wanted to compare both of their times, I would have just posted Danica & Legge's times. I posted the pole sitters times to give comparison of how much they were off the pace to show that time wise they were in the same zone. (I know that doesn't fit with your agenda, but I can see how you want to interpret it that way)

[NickFalzone]

Watching this again, I agree that she just lost it. It looks like she made a slight correction to the right coming out of her pit, and because she spun the back tires so hard the car completely lost traction. It sounds like AGR was planning on Danica making her spots in the pits, not on the course, so they had her gearing optimized for standing starts. Too much for her to handle.

As far as Danica vs Legge, well it's a stupid comparison. Like Fisher vs DP. True, Fisher has not had the cars that DP has had. But the fact of the matter is that Danica has run well for several years, top 10 in IRL and has a win, Legge and Fisher have not.

Edit: I just read TK's comment in the Indy Star article. Very funny. He's been around racing too long to let her off on a slippery paint excuse.

[gofastandwynn]

The only similarity that I see between Mario's incident and Danica's is that they both lost control of their cars while leaving the pits. But that's where the similarity ends. Mario didn't hit anything (or anyone), didn't go flying through anyone else's pits... and even lit a nasty bootleg that brought the crowd to a roar with his daring and skill. He was just a bad mutha... Shut yo mouth! Hey, I'm talkin' about Mario Andretti! Danica, on the other hand... I understand that Ralph Nader has a search party out looking for her today. IMO, this is simply another example of her talent and skill level not meeting with the hype that surrounds her. Nothing more. Nothing less.



That is because they both have the same cause. Some one leaving the pits on cold tires and spinning out. If Mario was 10 feet in he would have done the same thing. (The thing that kept Danica from going all the way around was the pit wall) The this was an admitted driver error that she took responsibility for. The only one making a big deal out of it is people on the internet. I just don't see it as a big deal. Where is the uproar for Dixon taking out Briscone? Wasn't Dixon the one calling out Patrick for being a menace a few week ago, then he does that? Where is his uproar?

P.S. oh yea, for Jag any anyone else who wants classic youtube racing, check out racingfan99 (http://www.youtube.com/user/racingfan99) & champcar4ever (http://www.youtube.com/user/champcar4ever)

[Jag_Warrior]

Are we talking about the same Manning?, I´m talking about Darren Manning, the Darren Manning that is in his 4th year in the IRL and after 51 starts has not a single win in his "impressive" resume, the same Darren Manning that after 51 stars has one podium, the one he got last weekend.

I´m talking about the Darren Manning that in 19 starts in CART/CC had no wins and only one podium.

I´m talking about the Darren Manning that in 21 starts in Formula 3000 had no wins, he had 2 podiums, but no wins.

The last time Manning won was in 1999, in the Japan Formula 3 series, he was the champion, but not even winning a single race after winning a Formula 3 series is not impressive.

I dislike Patrick a lot, I hate the fact she feels she is so good that with only one win under her resume she calls other drivers amateurs and stupids, but seeing that a driver like Manning with no wins at all on a major formula, a driver that has not won a race in 9 years and has only 4 podiums in those 9 years gets a free pass for saying the same things as Danica, a free pass because he is a male driver, not only that, his resume is called impressive (much more impressive than Danica´s) to keep bashing Danica.

Danica is also on her 4th year as an Indy Car driver, she has 1 win (one more than Manning), and 3 more podiums (obviously a total of 4 with the win), 3 more than Manning. She was in the Atlantic series for 2 years(2003 and 2004), no wins, but 4 podiums.

Manning from 2000 until 2008, no wins and 4 podiums, Patrick from 2003 until 2008 1 win and 8 podiums (including her win), none have an impressive resume, and is unfair to compare different teams and formulas, but Manning definitively has not a resume better than Danica, but he gets a free ride.

My point is still the same, I dislike drivers, specially non stellar drivers like Manning and Patrick, calling out other drivers, but I see that Patrick gets more heat than male drivers.

OK. When Darren Manning becomes (even) the second most popular and fawned over driver in the IRL, I'd be more than happy to agree with all of what you say. With that, he should get nearly the same heat as Patrick, so that everything would balance.

But the posts we've traded are about the only times Manning has been brought up on this or any other board I'm on - positive or negative. I'd say (by your own data) that the reason for that is that Manning isn't much to talk about.

Danica gets more heat than male drivers. Well, other than Duno, I think all of the other drivers are male. So it's sexism, pure and simple? She's just a little innocent waif, who hasn't tried to fly near the flame. We should forget that Danica is the highest profile IRL driver? Can I ask, what is it about Danica that makes people speak of her so much? Other than being a female, what does she have going for her? Why do you think that a person, who up until a few months ago had never won a professional auto race in her life, became such a media darling?

[weeflyonthewall]

Why do I think that a person, who up until a few months ago had never won a professional auto race in her life, became such a media darling?
Desperate times prompted desperate measures. OW lacked drivers with celebrity status so the TG/IRL machine went into high gear. When fans questioned Danica's performance, we were given the Motegi result to appease us. They will no doubt arrange another win before the season is over.

[downtowndeco]

Why do I think that a person, who up until a few months ago had never won a professional auto race in her life, became such a media darling?
Desperate times prompted desperate measures. OW lacked drivers with celebrity status so the TG/IRL machine went into high gear. When fans questioned Danica's performance, we were given the Motegi result to appease us. They will no doubt arrange another win before the season is over.

While she's no Foyt (Sr.) or Mario she has consistantly ran in the top 10 & is currently 7th (I think) in the points. It was only a matter of time until the cards fell her way & she got a win.

[Chris R]

Gheesh - why all the hang-ups on Danica?

Yes, she gets more attention than her driving skill would get her if she was a male.

No, that is not a bad thing - it is just the way things are.. She would be foolish not to exploit whatever advantage she has (whether it be recognition due to gender or weight)

She is not a bad driver. She may not be the best out there but she has certainly shown the ability to compete in the series. I would place her square in the middle of all the drivers in terms of overall talent.

She made a stupid mistake on Sunday - I did not like the fact that it got less coverage than Dixon's mistake - but I do not see a whole bunch of people questioning his skill or anything because he screwed up....

bottom line is she fessed up to screwing up, she is a decent driver and she has a ton of marketability sue to her gender and generally fiery disposition. It is annoying that a many non-fans think Indycar racing is all about Danica - but at least they are watching and all of the hard core fans pretty much regard her for what she is - which is neither good nor bad.....

[harvick#1]

no offense, but she is driving for one of the top teams in the IRL, while the transition is still being made, Penske, AGR, and Ganassi are always the front runners, with RLR and some others run up front sometimes.

yeah she has plenty of top tens, but what was the car count before the merger, 15-16 cars tops, she was in top equipment still. She is still an average driver in top equipment.

[jarrambide]

OK. When Darren Manning becomes (even) the second most popular and fawned over driver in the IRL, I'd be more than happy to agree with all of what you say. With that, he should get nearly the same heat as Patrick, so that everything would balance.

But the posts we've traded are about the only times Manning has been brought up on this or any other board I'm on - positive or negative. I'd say (by your own data) that the reason for that is that Manning isn't much to talk about.

Danica gets more heat than male drivers. Well, other than Duno, I think all of the other drivers are male. So it's sexism, pure and simple? She's just a little innocent waif, who hasn't tried to fly near the flame. We should forget that Danica is the highest profile IRL driver? Can I ask, what is it about Danica that makes people speak of her so much? Other than being a female, what does she have going for her? Why do you think that a person, who up until a few months ago had never won a professional auto race in her life, became such a media darling?
First it was because Manning had an impressive record with much more championships under his belt than Danica´s wins (which turn out to be that Manning has no wins in the last 9 years after driving in Formula 3000, CC, IRL and A1 Grand Prix), now is because she is the most popular driver in the IRL, funny how the reason can change in hours or even minutes.

The part about what does she has going for her, why she is a media darling, that has nothing to do with the point I´m discussing, the point is why she gets bash while other drivers either don´t get a single comment or just a few when they do the same mistakes or say the same things.

Is she a great driver?, not in my book, should TV, newspapers and other media outlets spend so much time on her?, not in my book, but I do welcome the attention we certainly wouldn´t be receiving without her, is she the worst driver in the IRL?, no she is not, I think she is better than a lot of the current drivers, I think she is just a little better than mediocre, but she certainly is good enough to be in the IRL, specially when you see some of the other drivers, should she be calling out other drivers?, heck no, she is a driver with only one win, mediocre drivers don´t get to talk like that, but the same goes to the male mediocre drivers.

So, obviously, if she is not that good, why does the medias and many new fans give her so much attention?, because she is a girl?, is this fair? of course not, but then again, why does she gets much more heat by some fans than other male drivers when they do the same mistakes or say the same dumb stuff?, for the same reason, she is a girl.

The most amusing part about it all, is that the same fans that complain about the fact she gets threated differently for being a girl, are the same fans that threat her different because she is a girl, they are doing exactly the same, I´m just trying to pint the hypocrisy of it all, "Ein Esel schilt den andern Langohr."

[downtowndeco]

no offense, but she is driving for one of the top teams in the IRL, while the transition is still being made, Penske, AGR, and Ganassi are always the front runners, with RLR and some others run up front sometimes.

yeah she has plenty of top tens, but what was the car count before the merger, 15-16 cars tops, she was in top equipment still. She is still an average driver in top equipment.


I don't recall the IRL ever having fields as low as 15 or 16 cars, I think you might be thinking of another series.

[icehammer97]

I don't recall the IRL ever having fields as low as 15 or 16 cars, I think you might be thinking of another series.

There was never 15 or 16 cars but in 2006 there were only 16 drivers that made more then 8 starts (of 14) so the actual car count was higher it was alot of cars making only a few starts that were just field fillers to make the car count look better.

[gofastandwynn]

Why do I think that a person, who up until a few months ago had never won a professional auto race in her life, became such a media darling?
Desperate times prompted desperate measures. OW lacked drivers with celebrity status so the TG/IRL machine went into high gear. When fans questioned Danica's performance, we were given the Motegi result to appease us. They will no doubt arrange another win before the season is over.

Oh please. The press decides what they want to report on.

Why do you think? Because she is a woman in a man's game, and perhaps most importantly, the first attractive one. Guthrie, St. James & Fisher, while all talented, were tomboys while Danica was the first "girly girl" to come along. That is why.

Fair, no. Is ride buying fair? Is it fair that for people who use their last names to get rides? (How many championships had Marco & Graham won before they moved up?) It's life.

This isn't even the first time this has happened. When Shirley Muldowney was racing Funny Car she became a media darling with "Cha-Cha" & "First Lady of Drag Racing", you know how many nation events she won? ZERO. You know how many Funny Car events she ever won? ZERO. She didn't become a contender until the early 80's, but that didn't stop the media from falling for her. It is happening again with the press Ashley Force is getting.

And don't even start with the "it is rigged" BS, because that is all it is, BS. If you think it is rigged, then don't watch.

[garyshell]

Oh please. The press decides what they want to report on.

Why do you think? Because she is a woman in a man's game, and perhaps most importantly, the first attractive one. Guthrie, St. James & Fisher, while all talented, were tomboys while Danica was the first "girly girl" to come along. That is why.

Fair, no. Is ride buying fair? Is it fair that for people who use their last names to get rides? (How many championships had Marco & Graham won before they moved up?) It's life.

This isn't even the first time this has happened. When Shirley Muldowney was racing Funny Car she became a media darling with "Cha-Cha" & "First Lady of Drag Racing", you know how many nation events she won? ZERO. You know how many Funny Car events she ever won? ZERO. She didn't become a contender until the early 80's, but that didn't stop the media from falling for her. It is happening again with the press Ashley Force is getting.

And don't even start with the "it is rigged" BS, because that is all it is, BS. If you think it is rigged, then don't watch.


Wow, gofast!!! Finally we agree on something. I can't see how someone could possibly rig the race and permanently muzzle all the folks who would have to be involved. The only thing you could POSSIBLY do was increase the horsepower, but that would be so blatantly obvious. Sorry weefly, but you're off in the wrong direction on this one.

Gary

[weeflyonthewall]

Who said anything about rigged? Even NASCAR gets away with giving someone the call. Just a combination of circumstances. Right?!
Castroneves lets her by because he thought she was a lap down? Her win wasn't nearly as convincing as that Swiss chick in the Long Beach Atlantic opener.

[garyshell]

Castroneves lets her by because he thought she was a lap down? Her win wasn't nearly as convincing as that Swiss chick in the Long Beach Atlantic opener.


Do you honestly think that if Helio let her by for any other reason that no one else on the team knew it and you could keep that sort of information contained? I don't. Sorry. Normally you and I see pretty much eye to eye. But not on this one.

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

Castroneves lets her by because he thought she was a lap down?

Scoring a race from the cockpit of a race car has cost many people victories. Including Jimmy Clark.

[Jag_Warrior]

First it was because Manning had an impressive record with much more championships under his belt than Danica´s wins (which turn out to be that Manning has no wins in the last 9 years after driving in Formula 3000, CC, IRL and A1 Grand Prix), now is because she is the most popular driver in the IRL, funny how the reason can change in hours or even minutes.

No, you're reaching now. I'll own up to my mistake. I thought that Manning had won in CART, when it was actually Ryan Hunter-Reay. Sorry, I got the records of two (obscure) drivers confused. It's not a case of first it was this and now it's that. My position on Danica has been the same for a very long time. Spin it as you choose. You seem to have it in your mind that anyone and everyone who doesn't care for Danica Patrick is a misogynist. If that's how you see the world, it's not my job to change your mind. Are there people who don't like her simply because she's a female? Absolutely. There was a poster on the F1 forum who admitted that his main reason for not liking Lewis Hamilton was because he's Black. But not EVERY person who dislikes Danica is a woman hater and not every person who dislikes Hamilton is a cross burner. But like Hillary Clinton seemed to believe, with group & identity followers, if you're not on the bandwagon of the PC hero du jour, you're a bigot of some type. :rolleyes:


The part about what does she has going for her, why she is a media darling, that has nothing to do with the point I´m discussing, the point is why she gets bash while other drivers either don´t get a single comment or just a few when they do the same mistakes or say the same things.

So, what she has as a racing driver has nothing to do with why she gets bashed (is "bash" group & identity codespeak for any and all criticism?). Other drivers, who are not nearly as high profile as Danica, and don't get ANY broad coverage, good or bad... they don't get any focus when they make mistakes? Imagine that. And her fame has nothing to do with it, eh? I guess it must be misogyny. Odd that Dixon said that what he said about Patrick got so much press because it was about Danica. He seems to believe that anything said in relation to her gets more press than if said about any other driver. He's probably a misogynist too. Ed Carpenter? Misogynist. Only good things should be said about Danica. Anything short of that? Misogyny.


Is she a great driver?, not in my book, should TV, newspapers and other media outlets spend so much time on her?, not in my book, but I do welcome the attention we certainly wouldn´t be receiving without her, is she the worst driver in the IRL?, no she is not, I think she is better than a lot of the current drivers, I think she is just a little better than mediocre, but she certainly is good enough to be in the IRL, specially when you see some of the other drivers, should she be calling out other drivers?, heck no, she is a driver with only one win, mediocre drivers don´t get to talk like that, but the same goes to the male mediocre drivers.

Find a post where I've (EVER) said that she's not good enough to be in the IRL and I'll give you my lucky dollar. What I've said, and what I'll continue to say is that she is overhyped and overrated based on her accomplishments as a racing driver. As a celebrity, I have no quarrel with her on that one.


So, obviously, if she is not that good, why does the medias and many new fans give her so much attention?, because she is a girl?, is this fair? of course not, but then again, why does she gets much more heat by some fans than other male drivers when they do the same mistakes or say the same dumb stuff?, for the same reason, she is a girl.

I think your conclusion is overly simplistic on both ends. Sarah Fisher is a girl, yet she's taking donations to keep racing. If Milka Duno's husband wasn't more connected than Don Corleone, she'd have never set foot in a race car (and she wasn't that bad early on - she just got a very late start in life to race). And there's no doubt about Milka's gender - Stevie Wonder would know she's a female. What's Ianina Zanazzi and Sara Senke up to these day? They were both girls of moderate talent. There's more to the Danica! phenomenon than her JUST being a female. Her gender makes her somewhat unique in auto racing, but she and her media people have built a nice franchise. Some of us say that the franchise is bogus in its enormity, in terms of her being measured as a racing driver.


The most amusing part about it all, is that the same fans that complain about the fact she gets threated differently for being a girl, are the same fans that threat her different because she is a girl, they are doing exactly the same, I´m just trying to pint the hypocrisy of it all, "Ein Esel schilt den andern Langohr."

All the same fans, huh? Well, we've already established that we're all women haters, who believe in keepin' 'em barefoot & pregnant. I assume that's German you wrote? I don't like Germans... as I didn't like Michael Schumacher. I rode him a lot harder than I ride Danica. And don't speak French. I didn't like Prost at all - so I'm prejudiced against Frenchmen. Forget about speaking Japanese too. I spent much bandwidth making fun of Shiggy Hattori back in the day - so I'm obviously prejudiced against Asians.

Gee, I didn't know how bad I was. I guess I'll have to start watching races with David Duke. Excuse me now, while I go pray for the (putrid) soul of Jesse Helms.

BTW, my views on Danica pretty much mirror those of a female racing champion. I bet she's a misogynist too. An unfortunate self-hating woman. She needs to get on the Danica Apologists Bandwagon before it's too late.

[jarrambide]

Jag-Warrior, I´m reaching but then you assume I called a misogynist?, I never said you or any other member or racing fan was one, never said people that dislike her are women haters, I dislike her, a lot, go back since the first races she had in the IRL, I have always complain about all the press she gets and the media attention she received before even winning a single race (I disliked the attention Legge received during her CC years), but I also complain about the opposite, she receiving way more attention for saying dumb things or making mistakes.

I was one of the first persons to criticize her a couple of races ago when she called almost every one amateur and stupid, I think I even opened a thread (using your own theory I just called me a women hater), but when Manning does the same and I also criticize him and see the huge difference, no one complains about Manning, but Patrick is call a few different names I can´t but to think that she gets lots of undeserving attention (good and bad attention) because she is a girl, yes, the good press is not only because she is a girl, her swimsuit or small shorts pictures help, her PR people help too, but the fact she si a girl is a huge part of her undeserving attention, the good and the bad.

And for the record, no, I don´t think every one that criticizes DP is doing it because she is a girl, I have criticize her a lot of times, but obviously when you complain that people bash her for being a girl, you are indirectly accusing innocent people, but then again, "la nuit, tous les chats sont gris".

[Jag_Warrior]

This isn't even the first time this has happened. When Shirley Muldowney was racing Funny Car she became a media darling with "Cha-Cha" & "First Lady of Drag Racing", you know how many nation events she won? ZERO. You know how many Funny Car events she ever won? ZERO.

Let's not drag down one of the most incredible drag racers of our time. You're leaving out the fact that Shirley was primarily a dragster racer. She only raced in NHRA funny car for a couple of seasons.... then she got tired of getting burned up in enclosed spaces. Her wins and championships came in the Top Fuel category. Top Fuel was the fastest category, and that's where she made her name and legend. I'm not saying that she didn't get some press as "Cha Cha", but she didn't explode on the scene until she moved to Top Fuel and started taking on Big Daddy Don. She's said that "Cha Cha" was a name that Kalitta came up with and she didn't like it, because it was a name for a bimbo. It was the Top Fuel match races she did against Garlits that made Hot Rod, Car Craft and the magazines I read at that time.



She didn't become a contender until the early 80's, but that didn't stop the media from falling for her.

Didn't become a contender until the early 80's?! She won her first NHRA Championship in '77. She became the first NHRA racer to win three races in a row in '77. She won another NHRA Championship in '80. The media falling for her??? She won the NHRA Top Fuel Championship and placed 2nd in the AHRA Top Fuel Championship in the same year. From about 2001 forward, there's not a soul I would compare her accomplishments to in AOWR (not a male or female, not a CART, CCWS or IRL driver).



It is happening again with the press Ashley Force is getting.

With the legend that her dad is, plus the fact that she's attractive... and uh, plus the fact that she's actually a very good drag racer who has led the Funny Car points championship (I believe before she got her first win), won rounds and a national Funny Car event... yeah.



And don't even start with the "it is rigged" BS, because that is all it is, BS. If you think it is rigged, then don't watch.

I agree with that.

[Jag_Warrior]

Jag-Warrior, I´m reaching but then you assume I called a misogynist?, I never said you or any other member or racing fan was one, never said people that dislike her are women haters


My thoughts exactly, but as I mentioned last week when Manning publicly call out his fellow drivers, the outrage is less when is a man, almost no one got outrage at Manning.

This post^, yours, was the first post I saw in this thread that made a real issue of gender and bias. :confused:



And for the record, no, I don´t think every one that criticizes DP is doing it because she is a girl, I have criticize her a lot of times, but obviously when you complain that people bash her for being a girl, you are indirectly accusing innocent people,

Fair enough.



but then again, "la nuit, tous les chats sont gris".

Per favore, non parlar la lingua delle rane. Il gatto grande mangia la rana. :D

[speeddurango]

She's too nervous in the car or just not concentrating, I won't call it driver ability or even gender issue. She's shown she can drive fast, twice starting on the front row on road courses don't come from a bad driver.

[Easy Drifter]

Quite a few open wheel drivers, including F1 drivers have crashed in the pits. See Hamilton in Mtl. The trouble is that Stompin' Danica seems to be making a career out of it.

[beachbum]

This thread took a while to read, but overall some good points were made, only to end with the usual post that she messes up, but so did others. Well, if you screw up at work, is your defense going to be "well, so and so in another department did something stupid last week"? Yeah, that will work. NOT.

Judge the Helmet by her own record, don't try to justify her actions by deflection or dragging out unconnected events.

Why does she generate pages and pages of "commentary"? Perhaps each side needs to step back and look at the the other side.

Why do some fans idolize her?
Well a lot do, so there must be some reason. IMHO, she is the product of marketing, but any such product needs some substance. She is considered attractive to some, she has played up sexual stereotypes to get the young male demographic in a froth, she does have some real driving talent, she is extremely determined, and has played into the princess fantasy of a young attractive girl reaching a dream. She is, with out a doubt, a celebrity. Some see her aggressiveness on and off the track, and say "you go girl", and secretly wish they could get away with that in real life. She also has raced well enough to be considered a challenger, and has a win. If you idolize her for her celebrity, that is based on belief and image. Any negativity toward the focus of that image can be taken as a personal attack on those beliefs.

Why do some fans dislike her?
Some just because she is female and think females shouldn't be in racing. Like it or not, that is real. Some fans are so artificially macho they are threatened by strong women. Some are offended that she got to the top because of powerful mentors along the way, like Rahal. Another driver in another series (F1) gets the same negativity for the same reasons, but that has been part of racing since day 1. But IMHO, many hard core racers don't care much for her because she isn't a "real racer", her celebrity doesn't match her results. She wasn't a standout in Karting, or the British racing scene, (one good result from attrition), her short time in Barber Dodge was mediocre, she was better in Atlantics, and has been competitive in the IRL. Her very few forays into sportcars were dismal. Overall, an average driver. From time to time, the cry becomes - she doesn't belong in the IRL. But there are a number of average drivers in the IRL now and in the past.

Ok, what is my take? (not that it carries any weight)
Having spent a bit of time in racing working with a female running in a pro series, I have heard both sides of the argument. It exists for anyone not fitting some "racer" stereotype. What bothers me is that a look at Danica!'s portfolio shows lots of PR with typical PR "polish" and oversight, and an average driver with a serious attitude problem. (look at dear old Dad, she comes by it honestly) Without the PR, she would be a footnote, doing promotional drives for BMW (she did that - look it up). As a racer, she could never be called cerebral, but more of a stab it and steer driver, who has the courage to hold the throttle down and hang on, and quick reflexes to make it work. There appears to be no planning or strategy in her driving, just go. What worries me is that she doesn't seem that interested in working on improving her driving skills. She drives today just as she did in Atlantics. On ovals, she hugs the bottom, almost never tries an outside pass, and can be spooked easily. There is anecdotal evidence she also sometimes wonders all over the track, which is common for a racer driving purely by instinct, not thinking.

The very old proverb applies here "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill". She won't be young forever with fast reflexes, and if she wants a long career (I seriously doubt that), she better learn to think more on track, and drive more with her head than with her aggression. IMHO, racing for Danica is a vehicle to get celebrity and everything she and her family has done seems aimed at advancing her celebrity status, not becoming a better driver.

I honor the cerebral drivers who race for the love of racing rather than any reward, and get the most of what they have, and make very few mistakes (no driver is perfect). Drivers like Rick Mears, current drivers like Dixon, Helio, and even Kannan. Yeah sometimes they put the brain in neutral and just go for it, but much of the time they are in control of their driving, and especially their emotions. Danica seems out of control much of the time. As a former racer, an out of control racer worries me.

Ok, polishers and haters, rip it apart.

[Easy Drifter]

Excellent post Beachbum.
If you are referring to my post regarding other drivers crashing in the pits note that I point out others have, but she is doing with some regularity. I have been around this sport for over 50 years and I have never seen anyone have anywhere near as many incidents (or f ups) in or around the pits like Danica has.
Oh yes, I also crewed for a very good woman racer for several years during my 20 odd years as a race mechanic.

[downtowndeco]

She has had a few incidents in the pits. On the track she has been fairly steady and rare is the time when she crashes herself out.

[beachbum]

Excellent post Beachbum.
If you are referring to my post regarding other drivers crashing in the pits note that I point out others have, but she is doing with some regularity. I have been around this sport for over 50 years and I have never seen anyone have anywhere near as many incidents (or f ups) in or around the pits like Danica has.
Oh yes, I also crewed for a very good woman racer for several years during my 20 odd years as a race mechanic.IHMO, her lack of restraint and poor judgment is illustrated not only in the pit incidents, but such events as her nearly collecting a safety vehicle at Kentucky last year. Add in her overall attitude and I find myself agreeing with Dixon.

Harsh self-evaluation is a hallmark of a champion. I just don't see that in her. There is always some external reason for her "issues" - almost never her fault. If you have been around the sport for that long, you know racing is a serious, dangerous business and poor judgment and lack of self-control often lead to very bad consequences. In some ways, she has been extremely lucky, but that may not last forever.