Donkey of the Race (British GP Edition)

[gloomyDAY]

Massa.

Carry on.

[christophulus]

Agreed, but his car looked awful.

Can I nominate the entire Ferrari team? I don't think they made a good decision all day.

[markabilly]

Ferrari

[gloomyDAY]

Yeah, I'm really disappointed. I wanted Massa or Lewis to win this race.
Just shocked at Ferrari's form today. Kimi and Felipe were let down.

[yodasarmpit]

Massa, but the Ferrari team were shocking today.

[I am evil Homer]

Ferrari didn't do well..mind you very few did. But Massa's inability to regulate his right foot was embarassing at times.

[Knock-on]

We asked about the difference Ross Brawns departure would have to the team. I think we know :)

Massa for me as well because Kimi (although he was a bit weak IMHO) at least made it work. Lets not forget the Ferrari is the best car this year and that performance was Merde!

[iJones]

Yeah, Fiats went out for a spin. :laugh:

[gm99]

Ferrari was a team of donkeys today, so to speak ;)

I can't understand why they didn't change Kimi's tires on the first stop, or why they let him continue with those tires when he was losing close to ten seconds a lap with them.

Massa drove like he had never been at the wheel of any vehicle in the wet before...

[ioan]

Ferrari, they destroyed Massa's chances in the qualy and than just piled some more stupidity on it by deciding for a dry set-up for the race. Both drivers were driving like on ice.

I simply can't put it on any driver, plenty of them spun, even Hamilton and Heidfeld went of the road, but at least they had a car set-up for the conditions.

[ioan]

...because Kimi (although he was a bit weak IMHO) at least made it work.

Really?!
That's how it looked to me too after the 1st pitstop, lost 10 seconds in 2 laps! Not by his fault , and I wouldn't say he was weak at all), and it proves what donkey strategists they have.

[markabilly]

Simple if brawn could get a rubens in a honda to third, he could easily get a Kimi to 2nd in a ferrari....Kimi was lucky to be where he was at the end I thought, very lucky.

And given that, perhaps Massa was even luckier to be where he was, notwithstanding the "appearance" that makes him a fav for donkey.

[ioan]

Yeah, Fiats went out for a spin. :laugh:

:rotflmao:

[truefan72]

Kovaleinen... with all things being equal. ( I think Massa's car had an issue, maybe)

lost the lead, spun at the wrong times, couldn't maintain the pace to catch up the guys in front. couldn't get past alonso, got "taken" by heidfeld.

etc. etc. etc. The team needs him to do better.

2. Webber. I really though he would podium.

[Big Ben]

massa... no doubt... the car´s set-up might not have been perfect but how many times did he spun? 6-7?

[gloomyDAY]

Kovaleinen... with all things being equal. ( I think Massa's car had an issue, maybe)

lost the lead, spun at the wrong times, couldn't maintain the pace to catch up the guys in front. couldn't get past alonso, got "taken" by heidfeld.

etc. etc. etc. The team needs him to do better.

2. Webber. I really though he would podium.Good point about Kovy. Where did our pole sitter end up? 5th! I'm not too sure that Ron was impressed over such a dismal race for Heikki.

[HenryM]

massa,
dear god, he spin 6 times or more..
ferrari also deserve to be mentioned..

[MrJan]

Yup. Massa was an embarassment today but the Ferrari did not look good. Amazed that Kimi got a decent points haul, especially as he spun 2 or 3 times.

Heikki didn't have a bad race really, could have been much worse given the conditions. TBH all the boys that finished in the points did fairly well.

[ioan]

massa... no doubt... the car´s set-up might not have been perfect but how many times did he spun? 6-7?

Yeah the set-up was surely not even close to perfect, it was a dry weather set-up, and trying wasn't crime ever before.

[ioan]

( I think Massa's car had an issue, maybe)

Yeah the dry weather set-up, and most appalling was that they didn't even try to change something during pit stops.

[Tazio]

My vote goes to Webber.
If he drove the whole distance he would have out-spun Massa :D

[MrJan]

If Massa was on a full dry set up then it was his own fault. All the other drivers qualified in the same conditions and had the same parc ferme rules but did much better.

[veeten]

what's that old saying... "Once is a fluke, twice is coincidence, three is a trend".

You could see, from the outset, that Ferrari was in for a long, exasperating day. Improper set up, combined with a wet track, was going to kick their collective a$$es. Monaco, all over again. :s

They really need to get their wet weather setup sorted out fast... something tells me that this won't be the last rain-soaked race they'll run into this season.

[VkmSpouge]

Felipe Massa was the worst driver today by some margin. He spun 5 times which is an average of once every 12 laps. Kimi Raikkonen despite spinning twice salvaged 4th place. A total of 7 Ferrari spins means a Ferrari was spinning once every 8.57 laps.

[markabilly]

If Massa was on a full dry set up then it was his own fault. All the other drivers qualified in the same conditions and had the same parc ferme rules but did much better.
In this day and age, drivers have "some input" into the decsion making process, but not much. Things are determined by the engineering team. MS was probably the recent driver who had the most say, and all the conversations I ever heard over the radio, was his saying "yes sir" to Jean Todt and Ross Brawn, and I would imagine most conversations went like that elsewhere as well.

Trying to manage your strategy while also driving, is just beyond the way the current set up works and should work, and if a driver is doing that, then this is a team that needs some new engineers.

In a pre-rce interview, Massa said Ferrari was basically baffled by the silverstone track in qualifying and presumably practice.

[superocean]

Although Massa was the donkey of the day, I'd like to say that DC was pretty bad as well takign him and Vettle out of the race.
I was looking forward to seeing Vettle in the rain again but thanks no thanks to DC, no can do. Webber had some pace today but too bad it didn't pan out. He was passing cars like he was in a ferrari on a dry day and Massa wasn't doing much behind Rosberg. Maybe it's time to replace Massa.

[F1boat]

Massa, I believe. The Ferrari team were bad, but with the same car Kimi scored 5 points who could turn to be prescious.

[yodasarmpit]

Although Massa was the donkey of the day, I'd like to say that DC was pretty bad as well takign him and Vettle out of the race.
I was looking forward to seeing Vettle in the rain again but thanks no thanks to DC, no can do. Webber had some pace today but too bad it didn't pan out. He was passing cars like he was in a ferrari on a dry day and Massa wasn't doing much behind Rosberg. Maybe it's time to replace Massa.I had forgot about that, DC's off was pretty donkey'ish :)

[VkmSpouge]

DC being involved in yet another hit with a car was pretty bad, great synchronised spinning by the Red Bull and Toro Rosso though.

[BDunnell]

From seeing the Coulthard/Vettel incident very briefly, I couldn't see whether there was contact.

As for Massa, it looked very much like he had some problem beyond the conditions. I have never seen someone spin so easily. It didn't look like he was doing anything wrong — jabbing too hard at the throttle, for example — that was inducing the spins. I felt rather sorry for him.

[gloomyDAY]

Although Massa was the donkey of the day, I'd like to say that DC was pretty bad as well takign him and Vettle out of the race.
I was looking forward to seeing Vettle in the rain again but thanks no thanks to DC, no can do. Webber had some pace today but too bad it didn't pan out. He was passing cars like he was in a ferrari on a dry day and Massa wasn't doing much behind Rosberg. Maybe it's time to replace Massa.I didn't forget about DC! That old man punted his successor off the track before the end of 1 lap. His apology, although genuine and sincere, isn't going to make much of an impression. DC took out a regenmaster and Horner is more than ready to throw the German into the RBR machine.

Any possibility that DC gets swapped for Vettel before the end of the season?
One can only hope.

[F1boat]

At this condition, you couldn't say that there was a donkey, really. Even the GT cars of Porsche had trouble driving in this horrible weather.

[Tazio]

My vote goes to Webber.
If he drove the whole distance he would have out-spun Massa :D

My bad Mark did finish the race!
I'll let Kubica champion his cause
Terrible race for the Pole!

[gloomyDAY]

My bad Mark did finish the race!
I'll let Kubica champion his cause
Terrible race for the Pole!Looked at the results when I read that post. Placed a bet against Valve on sigs. over Webber even finishing the race. I lost, so shhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :)

Onto Germany people!

[BDunnell]

I didn't forget about DC! That old man punted his successor off the track before the end of 1 lap. His apology, although genuine and sincere, isn't going to make much of an impression.

Ah, I didn't see/hear that he'd owned up to it.

[gloomyDAY]

Ah, I didn't see/hear that he'd owned up to it.Here is the quote. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68922)

[gravity]

As far as I could tell, it looked like HK had a dry setup for the race (which also might explain his quali performance).
FM not having a good day seemed to have to do with the engine mapping program running. From the onboard footage, it seemed he went through a dead spot, then full accel... which u could prob drive around on a dry track, but impossible on a wet track.
As for changing a setup from wet to dry, there isn't much u can change in a pitstop other than your front wing angle.
Most of the changes required involve replacing components (dampers), adjusting ride heights and engine/gear ratio settings. These decisions/settings are what drivers get paid for. Of course the team has some influence in the decision (as in requesting a setup that leans towards a scenario as a contingency plan... like Mclaren did with HK perhaps).

[Daniel]

We asked about the difference Ross Brawns departure would have to the team. I think we know :)

What are you on about? Still leading the manufacturers and with 2 drivers equal first in the title..... There was clearly something wrong with Massa's car. Nothing to do with not having Ross Brawn. But of course you'll dress everything up as you want :D

[ioan]

Maybe it's time to replace Massa.

:rotflmao:
Yeah, let's replace the championship leader, he must be a bad driver. :laugh:

[Robinho]

today Massa, although i hope for his sake it wasn't all him, but no mention of set up or car problems here http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43269 however it did lok like they were opting for the dryer of the weather, given that Kimi was quickest (in comparison with the rest) when the track was dryest

[elinagr]

Ferrari team for not changing Kimis tyres and then they lost 5 sec a lap..if they pit him immidiately with extreme wets he could be up to second...!!!

[ArrowsFA1]

Yeah the set-up was surely not even close to perfect, it was a dry weather set-up, and trying wasn't crime ever before.
Has this been confirmed? Felipe has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68950) "I was in trouble to drive the car in the wet and I made so many mistakes." There's no mention of a dry set-up from Stefano Domenicali either that I've seen.

There was clearly something wrong with Massa's car.
There's nothing that Ferrari have mentioned yet AFAIK apart from them admitting to errors.

[Daniel]

There's nothing that Ferrari have mentioned yet AFAIK apart from them admitting to errors.

Perhaps I was wrong about yourself and Knockie having binocular vision between you :laugh: Did you not catch the race today or qualifying yesterday?

[ArrowsFA1]

Did you not catch the race today or qualifying yesterday?
I said AFAIK. Having watched the race, been out for the afternoon, and now having a spare 5 mins to check emails and come on here I have not seen anything to suggest Massa was running a dry set-up or that there has been any other explaination for his errors.

I could have missed an explaination.

But that is why I said AFAIK.

[ioan]

Has this been confirmed? Felipe has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68950) "I was in trouble to drive the car in the wet and I made so many mistakes." There's no mention of a dry set-up from Stefano Domenicali either that I've seen.

There's nothing that Ferrari have mentioned yet AFAIK apart from them admitting to errors.

Do you remember that guy, multiple WDC, who dared to say after a race his Ferrari was crap?!
You sure remember what happened to him. Massa isn't stupid! ;)

As for Domenicalli, if he publicly owned up for this disaster, and he should as team manager, it would be like signing his demise. There were to many cock-ups this season already, he's on thin ice at the moment.

Cheers,

Ioan

[jens]

Massa. :rotflmao: His performance was identical to what he showed back in 2002 at wet Silverstone. Six years has passed and nothing has changed. :D

Among the teams Ferrari. It's quite amazing that whenever there are critical situations, which demand quick thinking and decision-making, they always get it wrong. I have to say that although Ferrari as a team is very strong, then they have the worst strategists in F1. And that's quite a harsh statement, because even Toyota, who has usually held No.1 status in this area, has been making better calls this year.

[Daniel]

I said AFAIK. Having watched the race, been out for the afternoon, and now having a spare 5 mins to check emails and come on here I have not seen anything to suggest Massa was running a dry set-up or that there has been any other explaination for his errors.

I could have missed an explaination.

But that is why I said AFAIK.

I ask again. Did you actually watch the race and qualifying?

[ioan]

Has this been confirmed? Felipe has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68950) "I was in trouble to drive the car in the wet and I made so many mistakes." There's no mention of a dry set-up from Stefano Domenicali either that I've seen.

There's nothing that Ferrari have mentioned yet AFAIK apart from them admitting to errors.

Sorry for this new post, but I forgot to explain why I think they were bad because of a dry race set-up.

Both drivers spun several times when the track was at it's worse, however both posted competitive times when it was drying up, as competitive that Kimi had the fastest lap of the race and was catching Hamilton by more than 2nd per lap before the 1st stop.

I think they gambled for mixed conditions but rather dry ones than wet.

The same for Mark Weber, which explains his good showing in the qualifying, and also why he spun a few times although he is not a bad wet weather racer.

[harvick#1]

DC for punting Vettel right at the beginning.

but after that Ferrari

[gravity]

Did Kimi get fastest lap today? Isn't that a record? 6 consecutive 'fastest laps'?

[ioan]

Did Kimi get fastest lap today? Isn't that a record? 6 consecutive 'fastest laps'?

I think you are right on that one.

[Jag_Warrior]

I'd say Massa has the Donkey Award wrapped up by... two laps or so. A lot of drivers had issues today. But given what he and Ferrari are supposed to be able to do, he and the entire team have to wear the Donkey pin this weekend.

I've never really cared for Massa, but even I felt sorry for him today. By Wednesday, there'll probably be rumors of Danica Patrick taking his seat next season. Sad. Really sad.

[truefan72]

Yeah the dry weather set-up, and most appalling was that they didn't even try to change something during pit stops.

aha I see. So is that Massa's fault or the teams or both?
yeah, either way he does get an honorable mention.
I do believe that Schumi ( although I wasn't a fan,but is probably tops on my all time list) would have made the best of the situation and probably done a minor miracle. It's times like these that one appreciates what he was able to do in/with a car. Massa needed to show world class race craft which i do believe he's a step behind LH, KR, FA and probably Kubica (although the latter spun). Unless conditions are ideal, Massa usually doesn't do well. I can't recall a race where he won if he didn;t start off on the pole.


I didn't forget about DC! That old man punted his successor off the track before the end of 1 lap. His apology, although genuine and sincere, isn't going to make much of an impression. DC took out a regenmaster and Horner is more than ready to throw the German into the RBR machine.

Any possibility that DC gets swapped for Vettel before the end of the season?
One can only hope.

probably, it was another case of DC being DC. And as you said, there comes a time when apologies and sincerity just don't suffice. They should swap cars and let Vettel do his thing, while DC can add needed expertise to bothe Bourdais and STR.

[ioan]

Unless conditions are ideal, Massa usually doesn't do well. I can't recall a race where he won if he didn;t start off on the pole.

Than you have a bad memory, as there have been two such races this year! :p :

[MrJan]

Sorry for this new post, but I forgot to explain why I think they were bad because of a dry race set-up.

Both drivers spun several times when the track was at it's worse, however both posted competitive times when it was drying up, as competitive that Kimi had the fastest lap of the race and was catching Hamilton by more than 2nd per lap before the 1st stop.

I think they gambled for mixed conditions but rather dry ones than wet.

The same for Mark Weber, which explains his good showing in the qualifying, and also why he spun a few times although he is not a bad wet weather racer.

I don't necessarily agree. Firstly Webber dropped it at the start in awful conditions on inters. However he was lapping about 3 seconds quicker than most of the blokes in front of him once he recovered, even though it was only the second lap and still wet. Kimi was also lapping very quickly and more so just before the first set of pit stops. However when they pitted they both stayed on the same tyres which proved to be the wrong decision because it hammered down with rain. This is when both of them did the most spinning, largely because they were on scrubbed inters. Meanwhile even Hamilton was struggling on fresh inters and almost everyone went off the track. Seemingly the only guy capable of being quick at this time was Rubens on his full wets.

I do not believe that a team like Ferrari would send out 2 cars on dry set up in what is obviously a wet race. Even a few turns on the front wing will make some kind of difference. Massa I think was just stabbing the throttle too much. He's always struck me as an agressive driver in this way and I think he just had some problems on the exit of Woodcote. Oh and the dodgy aquaplaning incident which was just bad luck.

[BDunnell]

Massa I think was just stabbing the throttle too much. He's always struck me as an agressive driver in this way and I think he just had some problems on the exit of Woodcote. Oh and the dodgy aquaplaning incident which was just bad luck.

I thought exactly the opposite, and that he was being extremely gentle on the throttle to try and avoid this happening, but that the car kept on going round nonetheless. On all the occasions it happened, his throttle inputs looked anything but aggressive. He clearly knows how to drive the non-TC car in the wet.

My verdict is that there must have been something else wrong, but given that there seems to be no hard evidence for the team running a dry set-up (unless I've missed something), what it was remains a mystery.

[Daniel]

I agree with bdunnell. There was clearly something wrong with the car. It was like what I imaging Conrad Rautenbach would be like if he drove an F1 car on a dry track.

[Sleeper]

I'll have to give this to the prancing Donkey.......errrrrrrrr Horse.

There must have been something wrong with Massa's car for him to spin so many times (he's come on a long way since Silverstone 02). And before anyone says "dry setup" again, I'll point out that these days the only difference between a dry and wet setup is wing angle and tyre pressure, both of which can be adjusted under parc-ferme rules for wet conditions. The suspension isnt touched anymore. I've read this from both Mark Hughes and Gary Anderson in Autosport and heard Brundle mention it on the grid today, before anyone asks.

[Sleeper]

I agree with bdunnell. There was clearly something wrong with the car. It was like what I imaging Conrad Rautenbach would be like if he drove an F1 car on a dry track.

Brundle suggested he might have had the wrong Throttle maps on the car. If the throttle response was far too aggressive then it would have been very difficult
for Massa to avoid spinning so often.

[BDunnell]

I'll have to give this to the prancing Donkey.......errrrrrrrr Horse.

There must have been something wrong with Massa's car for him to spin so many times (he's come on a long way since Silverstone 02). And before anyone says "dry setup" again, I'll point out that these days the only difference between a dry and wet setup is wing angle and tyre pressure, both of which can be adjusted under parc-ferme rules for wet conditions. The suspension isnt touched anymore. I've read this from both Mark Hughes and Gary Anderson in Autosport and heard Brundle mention it on the grid today, before anyone asks.

And there is no evidence at all for a dry set-up having been put on the car. But while I think it looked as though there was something else wrong with the car, there is admittedly no evidence for this either, so far.

[MrJan]

I thought exactly the opposite, and that he was being extremely gentle on the throttle to try and avoid this happening, but that the car kept on going round nonetheless. On all the occasions it happened, his throttle inputs looked anything but aggressive. He clearly knows how to drive the non-TC car in the wet.

I couldn't really hear the engine note and it seemed to happen a lot at Woodcote so just thought he was putting the power on too early. Especially as I've always thought that he was a balls out power driver.

I find it very, very hard to believe that Ferrari wouldn't make the small changes allowed, especially as pressures and front wing can be changed in pit stops. All the other teams were allowed to make the changes (and did) and there is no way that the team would gamble when their guy was leading the WDC.

INstead of problems could it all be down to Felipe having 'one of those days'? We've all had 'em, when nothing seems to go right.

[BDunnell]

I couldn't really hear the engine note and it seemed to happen a lot at Woodcote so just thought he was putting the power on too early. Especially as I've always thought that he was a balls out power driver.

I find it very, very hard to believe that Ferrari wouldn't make the small changes allowed, especially as pressures and front wing can be changed in pit stops. All the other teams were allowed to make the changes (and did) and there is no way that the team would gamble when their guy was leading the WDC.

INstead of problems could it all be down to Felipe having 'one of those days'? We've all had 'em, when nothing seems to go right.

Indeed, his post-race comments seem to bear this out. But it was precisely because he seemed to be handling the throttle so gently, especially by his standards of the past, that I thought it so odd. For what it's worth, Martin Brundle (a Massa fan, admittedly, as he says in this month's Motor Sport thought so too.

[Rollo]

Lewis Hamilton.

Any other driver in "the best car" should have lapped every other car in the field at least thirty times. Running consistent 1.34s and winning by over a minute, in conditions where drivers spun without being tagged, where visibility was shocking, shows he was lazy.

Winning by only 68s is not acceptable.

[markabilly]

Indeed, his post-race comments seem to bear this out. But it was precisely because he seemed to be handling the throttle so gently, especially by his standards of the past, that I thought it so odd. For what it's worth, Martin Brundle (a Massa fan, admittedly, as he says in this month's Motor Sport thought so too.
It appearred to me that some cars were spining when traveling in a straight line, a clear indication of the power of water on this particular day

[jso1985]

Massa spun at least once on a straight which shows the problem wasn't just a dry set-up on the car IMO

Ok he wasn't the only one spinning around, but hey the other drivers weren't the WDC leader, so as we expected much more from him I give him the award

[ArrowsFA1]

I ask again. Did you actually watch the race and qualifying?
You know what, in hindsight, maybe I didn't. AFAIK I was watching the pictures and listening to the commentary, but maybe I didn't actually watch the race :rolleyes:

The fact is, armchair speculation aside, there is (as yet) no explaination for Massa's poor performance. As BDunnell says it may have looked as if there was something wrong with the car, but there is no evidence to say there was.

[Daniel]

You know what, in hindsight, maybe I didn't. AFAIK I was watching the pictures and listening to the commentary, but maybe I didn't actually watch the race :rolleyes:

I think perhaps you should just stop there :)

The position Massa qualified in and the reason why should give you an idea that something's wrong.

[ArrowsFA1]

The position Massa qualified in and the reason why should give you an idea that something's wrong.
How does a problem releasing a tyre during qualifying explain why he had absolutely no handle on the conditions on Sunday? Ok, he may have qualified in the top four without that problem but the evidence of the race suggests wherever he qualified would have made no difference to his performance

Perhaps it is your view that his accident affected him more than he has said. But even then, he was fastest at the end of that session and pleased with the balance of the car. Kimi was the one struggling at that point.

[Daniel]

How does a problem releasing a tyre during qualifying explain why he had absolutely no handle on the conditions on Sunday? Ok, he may have qualified in the top four without that problem but the evidence of the race suggests wherever he qualified would have made no difference to his performance

Perhaps it is your view that his accident affected him more than he has said. But even then, he was fastest at the end of that session and pleased with the balance of the car. Kimi was the one struggling at that point.
Listen. Brundle and everyone else with two eyes and ears heard and saw that the guy was spinning with little or no throttle input. That's not normal Formula 1 car behaviour even in the conditions they had yesterday.

[ioan]

Some people were going to bash Massa even if he had only one off yesterday, and I'm not surprised after seeing their comments at the beginning of the season. They don't care if there was a problem with the car, be it set-up or engine mapping, they got what they starving for 6 races in a row, a chance to bash him.

Do as you like, he's still on top of the championship. :p :

[BDunnell]

Some people were going to bash Massa even if he had only one off yesterday, and I'm not surprised after seeing their comments at the beginning of the season. They don't care if there was a problem with the car, be it set-up or engine mapping, they got what they starving for 6 races in a row, a chance to bash him.

I agree, but there is no actual evidence for him having had a problem, and his comments bear this out, even though you, I and others may think it looked like he had.

I think that has to be my last comment on the matter, otherwise I'll just end up posting the same thing over and over again.

[Knock-on]

The problem is lack of TC for Massa.

Quite a few people struggled and others shone. Massa is a F1 driver and these boys are supposed to be the best of the best. If they have a problem, they drive round it. Others do.

There is no excuse for this IMHO. He could have changed up earlier, feathered the throttle more before getting on it.

I think he has a heavy right foot and the touch of an Elephant.

Defend him all you like but the Ferrari is the best car out there and his drive yesterday was rubbish.

[Dave B]

Sorry ioan, but I'm also nominating Massa as the Donkey of the Race.

Maybe his Friday crash and subsequent repairs left the car with a problem, but he had two practice sessions to get used to it or to dial it out. His pace in qualifying left some of us speculating that he was fuel-heavy and running a wet-weather setup, but his performance on Sunday didn't bear this out.

There's been plenty of opportunity since the race finished for Massa or Ferrari to say there was some sort of technical problem, but all we've heard is the driver admit that he made mistakes.

[Azumanga Davo]

The problem is lack of TC for Massa.

Quite a few people struggled and others shone. Massa is a F1 driver and these boys are supposed to be the best of the best. If they have a problem, they drive round it. Others do.

There is no excuse for this IMHO. He could have changed up earlier, feathered the throttle more before getting on it.

I think he has a heavy right foot and the touch of an Elephant.

Defend him all you like but the Ferrari is the best car out there and his drive yesterday was rubbish.

It was certainly nowhere near the best car out there yesterday. Neither of them were. I don't believe Massa, Webber et al could be blamed for the more than atrocious conditions. It caught a lot of people by surprise (I of course refer to the severity of the weather rather than the longevity).

My pick would be the Ferrari strategists, as they obviously would miss a trick even if Tommy Cooper performed it.

[ioan]

The problem is lack of TC for Massa.

Monaco was the perfect counter example, damp street circuit, lack of TC still he didn't spun or hit anything, unlike other drivers that you rate higher.

If I were you I would wonder why Button boy is being shown for a mediocre driver by MS's lapdog! Lack of TC maybe? Or maybe a lack of talent?!

No matter how you put it Massa is at the top of the Championship, while Button ... well I have no idea because he's pants! :p :

[555-04Q2]

The whole Ferrari team. What a mess-up this weekend was :(

[gravity]

...
while Button ... well I have no idea because he's pants! :p :

That's below the belt :rotflmao:

[Ranger]

The whole Ferrari team. What a mess-up this weekend was :(

Yep, that's pretty much it.

However, all things considered, both drivers are on top of the standings. That's not so bad.

[ioan]

Sorry ioan, but I'm also nominating Massa as the Donkey of the Race.

Maybe his Friday crash and subsequent repairs left the car with a problem, but he had two practice sessions to get used to it or to dial it out. His pace in qualifying left some of us speculating that he was fuel-heavy and running a wet-weather setup, but his performance on Sunday didn't bear this out.

There's been plenty of opportunity since the race finished for Massa or Ferrari to say there was some sort of technical problem, but all we've heard is the driver admit that he made mistakes.

His time on Friday was the fastest time posted during the whole week end. However from that moment they went slower and slower and slower.
He had the right set-up right at the beginning. Clearly the team wasn't able to reproduce that kind of set-up after the crash. I hope people were not expecting him to be the one who rebuilds the car! :rolleyes:

The team will not admit to anything anymore, they are on the brink of being shown the door after all the mistakes they did since they are on charge this season. So they rather keep a low profile and try to get it right next time. Be assured they all know what was happening, as a clue even Kimi managed to spin it 2 times.

Massa won't point a finger to the team because he is part of the team and we are talking about Ferrari not about McLaren where everyone runs their mouth one against the other and they manage to find some fantastic reason for every failure they have.

[ioan]

That's below the belt :rotflmao:

It was meant to be like that! :D

[SGWilko]

Oh and the dodgy aquaplaning incident which was just bad luck.

Ioan is maybe right methinks. To aquaplane in a straight line (when others were not) suggest a car that is too low - i.e. dry setup.

Given that LH had more fuel than HK, his first Q3 lap was on for pole - shame he overcooked it/got a gust of wind at the wrong time.

[Storm]

If I were you I would wonder why Button boy is being shown for a mediocre driver by MS's lapdog! Lack of TC maybe? Or maybe a lack of talent?!



Its all gone strangely quiet on that front hasn't it? :p :

Maybe Massa had problems but all the spinning around does tend to give him the donks title for this race...He has been showing his maturity and his speed until recently but he needs to forget Silverstone in a hurry one way or other.

The conditions were so bad that its hard to call anyone a donkey really but Massa got closest to it...

[TMorel]

Well personally I find the behaviour of leaving Massa out to dry so to speak to be worse than any crap to Ron Dennis normally comes out with.
If there WAS an issue with Massa's car then they should have the balls to come out and defend their driver.

[Daniel]

I vote for Anthony Davidson.

http://crashnet.cars.msn.co.uk/news_view.asp?cid=1&id=165876

What a clot. You can bet you'll never see him in an F1 car again even moreso than you would have before.

[mstillhere]

Agreed, but his car looked awful.

Can I nominate the entire Ferrari team? I don't think they made a good decision all day.

All week end I dare saying

[jens]

Actually I think even Mr. Alex Yoong would have at least matched Massa yesterday. :p : To get lapped almost by everyone in a top car is truly embarrasing, it's even hard to recall such poor performance by a driver. As there wasn't a specific problem, then it can be suggested he simply didn't have any confidence at all. Lost the car for once and after this incident his mindset wasn't right any more.

[ioan]

I vote for Anthony Davidson.

http://crashnet.cars.msn.co.uk/news_view.asp?cid=1&id=165876

What a clot. You can bet you'll never see him in an F1 car again even moreso than you would have before.

He's a butt. A pathetic one.

[ioan]

As there wasn't a specific problem,...

And you know that for sure.

[Knock-on]

Its all gone strangely quiet on that front hasn't it? :p :



I though Button was doing OK until he went off. He had one problem and then the issue with being stacked in the Pits but was on for a points finish when he looks like he lost it. Plenty of people did that and some didn't get away with it :D

[Ranger]

And you know that for sure.
Well, Massa said there wasn't, Ferrari said there wasn't. What else is to be assumed?

[Daniel]

Well, Massa said there wasn't, Ferrari said there wasn't. What else is to be assumed?
Come on. Massa was spinning wildly with practically no throttle input. There was obviously something very much wrong with his car. Teams don't always admit when something is wrong with the car. Teams will only ever admit mistakes or problems when there is no opportunity to deny them. People seem to be thinking Ferrari had no problems so Ferrari seem to be getting away with it. How long till there's another "Massa can't drive without TC thread"? Followed shortly by Massa winning a race or two and shutting people up yet again.

[ArrowsFA1]

Brundle and everyone else with two eyes and ears heard and saw that the guy was spinning with little or no throttle input.
And they may be right, but you said "the position Massa qualified in and the reason why should give you an idea that something's wrong."

Ferrari cocked up a wheel change in qualifying which then affected his position on the grid. How does that explain his performance on Sunday?

[ioan]

Well, Massa said there wasn't, Ferrari said there wasn't. What else is to be assumed?

The team didn't say there wasn't, and he said he can't explain it.

And commentators said that it was bizarre that he was spinning even when there was little or no throttle input.

[Daniel]

And they may be right, but you said "the position Massa qualified in and the reason why should give you an idea that something's wrong."

Ferrari cocked up a wheel change in qualifying which then affected his position on the grid. How does that explain his performance on Sunday?
I thought I read something about there being a link. I could be very much wrong. Regardless of any link it was clear that there was a problem with the car. Spinning in a straight line with very little throttle is not something we're used to seeing in F1. Regardless of whether there was a damaged component or simply bad setup. There was something very much wrong with Massa's car.

[Daniel]

The team didn't say there wasn't, and he said he can't explain it.

And commentators said that it was bizarre that he was spinning even when there was little or no throttle input.
Some people are getting confused between "The team not saying there was a problem" (what happened) and "The team saying there was no problem" (not what happened) mate :)

[ioan]

Did the team ever fully explained why he and Kimi spun in Oz. What about Sepang?!
I don't remember them being very specific on those occasions, and now they say nothing as they can hide it under the wet aspect of the track.

People were pointing to the engine mapping back than and they are doing it again. Coincidence?

[Daniel]

Did the team ever fully explained why he and Kimi spun in Oz. What about Sepang?!
I don't remember them being very specific on those occasions, and now they say nothing as they can hide it under the wet aspect of the track.

People were pointing to the engine mapping back than and they are doing it again. Coincidence?

If I used my brain I would say there was something wrong with the cars perhaps in regards to how they work in the wet and Ferrari want to pin it on the drivers rather than the cars because they don't want to give the other teams the impression that Ferrari won't be able to fight for points in other wet races.

Teams have a habit of not letting other teams know when they have problems which give the others a big advantage.

[jens]

Ioan, when Lewis spins, then you'd never seek for explanations, but would bash him with great enthusiasm. :p :

Massa is a joint WDC leader, is still a serious title contender, has shown in the past races he can race well and showed at Monaco he can race well in the wet,...
but it can't be denied his performance at Silverstone was utterly awful whatever hypothetical reasons folks are trying to find. Btw, even in a car with dry setup it is possible to race in the wet without spinning and not getting lapped by everybody. Yeah, actually I think Yoong would have beaten him. Sorry.

[ArrowsFA1]

Spinning in a straight line with very little throttle is not something we're used to seeing in F1.
But aquaplaning can be a common situation seen in the kind of conditions we saw on Sunday. As was said there was a lot of standing water on the circuit.

Meanwhile Stefan Dominicali continues to be rather evasive when asked:

Q. Can you summarise the team's position as to what happened in Felipe's race?
SD: I think it was a difficult race for Felipe. Of course the thing that we need to bear in mind is the fault that was on us as a team, not to give him the chance to do another run yesterday in qualifying, so it's always difficult to have a nice when you are in the middle of the field in this condition. Then of course, after the first pit stop, the race, as we said, because of the situation, is almost over.
It is a Sunday to forget and in terms of the sporting result, it's a Sunday that we need to remember - not only a Sunday – a weekend that we need to remember in order to be focused on the job that we have to do at home, there will be a lot, and really, all of us are looking forward to the next weekend because for sure that's not our standard, and that, for sure, is something that we would like to avoid, but that's racing.

Q. Stefano, I believe that Felipe spun five times. Did he have a problem with the car or just his bad luck today?
SD: Yeah, I think that it's always difficult when you are in that situation, it was a difficult race for the team, when I speak about the team, I am speaking about the team and the drivers. The good point in a way is that there is a very tight situation in the championship and that's frustrating in a way because of course with all these points, our main competitors are very close to us. We need to look ahead and work, keep the head up so we may have these Sundays, I don't want to remember the song of a British group but anyway… we need to be really focused for the next Grand Prix.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68963

[Daniel]

Arrows thanks for the quote :up:

If it was Felipe I'm sure Stefano would be more than happy to hang it all on him.

*taps nose knowingly*

Mereckons Ferrari have a bit of a problem in the wet.

[ioan]

But aquaplaning can be a common situation seen in the kind of conditions we saw on Sunday. As was said there was a lot of standing water on the circuit.

Sure thing, but aquaplaning on a straight with little or no throttle input?!



Meanwhile Stefan Dominicali continues to be rather evasive when asked:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68963

One has to wonder why is this happening.

[jens]

I think Ferrari team and also Felipe himself are so amazed by his poor performance that they are really struggling to find an explanation and are talking in circles.

Something that has happened to me in a computer game. :laugh: I remember this happening a few times in a race - somehow lost the rhythm, no driving confidence, spun almost every lap. Of course my explanation would be "I don't know what happened". It's just too puzzling. The performance was worse than "I made a mistake" or "it was my fault" - in fact a performance can be so poor that it even can't be explained!

[ioan]

I think Ferrari team and also Felipe himself are so amazed by his poor performance that they are really struggling to find an explanation and are talking in circles.

Something that has happened to me in a computer game. :laugh: I remember this happening a few times in a race - somehow lost the rhythm, no driving confidence, spun almost every lap. Of course my explanation would be "I don't know what happened". It's just too puzzling. The performance was worse than "I made a mistake" or "it was my fault" - in fact a performance can be so poor that it even can't be explained!

Are you comparing a real wet F1 race with you playing it on a PC?!

[ArrowsFA1]

Sure thing, but aquaplaning on a straight with little or no throttle input?!
Just look at what happened to Sutil:

At the time of my spin, the track was starting to dry and it was tricky to tell where the wet patches were. This is what happened in my case - I just went on one of these puddles and aquaplaned off completely
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68930

[gravity]

Are you comparing a real wet F1 race with you playing it on a PC?!

Yes! I think he did.
I can't see the problem with his comparison in that context. A lot of new drivers into any form of racing (including F1) use simulators to learn everything from lines around a new track, different setups for a new track or even getting around the track under different conditions.

This simulator software is avail to the public (although I would imagine that the F1 teams are using a newer version by now?). If it's good enough for them, surely it's worth using in a comparison.

[ioan]

Yes! I think he did.
I can't see the problem with his comparison in that context. A lot of new drivers into any form of racing (including F1) use simulators to learn everything from lines around a new track, different setups for a new track or even getting around the track under different conditions.

This simulator software is avail to the public (although I would imagine that the F1 teams are using a newer version by now?). If it's good enough for them, surely it's worth using in a comparison.

You kidding?
How the hell can you compare sitting in the car with all the different sensations they get, with sitting in front of the PC and all you get is the road on the screen and the sound of the engine.

Not to mention that the simulators the teams use are much more advanced than what we ever saw on PC until now.

[gravity]

Am I kidding? No
As for comparing the sensations 'in the car' with sitting in front of a pc... there are enough force feedback devices programmed into simulator models that allow for a user (sitting at home with a seat/wheel/screen/pedal combo) to be able to relate to the situation as Jens did.

What we have on PC now is BETTER than what F1 teams had for their drivers 10-15 years ago. Some of the software that gamers use in their simulation games was developed by the teams/partners themselves.

Have you ever tried any of these simulation 'games' properly? (ie: with the FF wheel/seat/pedal?)

[Daniel]

Am I kidding? No
As for comparing the sensations 'in the car' with sitting in front of a pc... there are enough force feedback devices programmed into simulator models that allow for a user (sitting at home with a seat/wheel/screen/pedal combo) to be able to relate to the situation as Jens did.

What we have on PC now is BETTER than what F1 teams had for their drivers 10-15 years ago. Some of the software that gamers use in their simulation games was developed by the teams/partners themselves.

Have you ever tried any of these simulation 'games' properly? (ie: with the FF wheel/seat/pedal?)
I'm sorry but that's still a silly argument. There is a lot to driving a car above and beyond the feedback you get through the steering wheel.

[ioan]

Am I kidding? No
As for comparing the sensations 'in the car' with sitting in front of a pc... there are enough force feedback devices programmed into simulator models that allow for a user (sitting at home with a seat/wheel/screen/pedal combo) to be able to relate to the situation as Jens did.

What we have on PC now is BETTER than what F1 teams had for their drivers 10-15 years ago. Some of the software that gamers use in their simulation games was developed by the teams/partners themselves.

Have you ever tried any of these simulation 'games' properly? (ie: with the FF wheel/seat/pedal?)

Honestly I was hopping that you were kidding.

[gravity]

I'm not arguing that you get as much or nearly enough feedback from a simulation to compare it to driving a car for real.
But having had experience in developing and competing in that field, I am certain that you get enough feedback from a simulation to be able to relate to the situation that Jens was referring to.

[jens]

When I brought in the PC example, then my goal wasn't so much to compare it's similarity to real racing, but more likely to emphasize the psychological side of competing as such - and competition as such can take place in anything. There may occur situations (although rarely), where a competitor for some reason seems totally lost and it can be hard to find a good explanation in such situations (maybe wasn't simply ready for the competition that was about to begin).

[Firstgear]

Sure thing, but aquaplaning on a straight with little or no throttle input?!

Aquaplaning has to do with depth of water and speed over the water. Nothing to do with "little or no throttle input". If you're going fast enough, over sufficiently deep water you will aquaplane.

Also, when you're aquaplaning you have no control over steering so you WILL be going in a strait line, and possibly start spinning when you stop aquaplaning and regain control of your steering.

[ten-tenths]

is it so hard to fathom massa spinning just on his own? why do people need to make excuses for him? the guy just had a race to forget.

[Hawkmoon]

Massa definently has a weakness in the wet. But he's nowhere near as bad as this race would suggest. He finished 3rd at a wet Monaco this year and 2nd a year ago at the Nurburgring.

I think his peformance at Silverstone was largely a confidence thing, as others have alluded to. Massa is very much a confidence type of driver which is why I think he does so well from pole or does so well at circuits like Istanbull and Sakhir. He loves those circuits, hence three straight wins in Turkey.

That said, it was a pathetic effort for a world championship contender and one that he needs to analyse, learn from and then forget. He can't let it get to him, which is easy said from my computer chair and not so easy done from his F2008 cockpit.

[Nikey]

I say Fisichella, Glock and Massa. Fisichella didn´t let Hamilton lap him which caused Fisico to spin and he wasn´t too far from taking out Lewis as well. (Even if I dislike him) Hamilton was clearly the fastest in Silverstone (first time whole season) so it wouldn´t have been fair if he had lost it because of a "never-was". Glock and Massa on the other hand seemed to spend more time on the grass than track...

[ShiftingGears]

Massa. And many, many strategists.

[leopard]

I think Massa was driver with the highest AQ (Adversity Quotient), most of drivers would easily give up after five times spinning at a race, he was exceptionally robust, he told us what it takes to become more resilient.

[SGWilko]

Honestly I was hopping that you were kidding.

You should see the specialist seat/wheel/pedal makers in Japan that cater for the racing sim gamers - that'll tell you how realistic this stuff can get... (they even cater for the effect of fuel sloshing about in the tank FFS - these guys are hardcore nerds!

Anyway, I thought you were just hopping....... :p :

[Knock-on]

Massa definently has a weakness in the wet. But he's nowhere near as bad as this race would suggest. He finished 3rd at a wet Monaco this year and 2nd a year ago at the Nurburgring.

I think his peformance at Silverstone was largely a confidence thing, as others have alluded to. Massa is very much a confidence type of driver which is why I think he does so well from pole or does so well at circuits like Istanbull and Sakhir. He loves those circuits, hence three straight wins in Turkey.

That said, it was a pathetic effort for a world championship contender and one that he needs to analyse, learn from and then forget. He can't let it get to him, which is easy said from my computer chair and not so easy done from his F2008 cockpit.

I think you're pretty close to hitting the nail on the head there.

With his accident, he was probably a little more shaken than reported to the media. Couple that with less preperation and test time in the car denying him the chance to "dial" himself in.

What you have is a car not 100% suited to the conditions (but then again, was anyones?) and a driver with no confidence.

As SD says, a GP for Massa and Ferrari to forget. He will have to just pull it together for the next as Lewis had to after a terrible GP.


Aquaplaning has to do with depth of water and speed over the water. Nothing to do with "little or no throttle input". If you're going fast enough, over sufficiently deep water you will aquaplane.

Also, when you're aquaplaning you have no control over steering so you WILL be going in a strait line, and possibly start spinning when you stop aquaplaning and regain control of your steering.

Spot on. Aquaplaning is where the tyres cannot clear the water to connect with the tarmac and float (plane) above the water.

Surprisingly, it can happen at less speed than you would think.

[Azumanga Davo]

is it so hard to fathom massa spinning just on his own? why do people need to make excuses for him? the guy just had a race to forget.

Finally a sensible post.

[Storm]

Am I kidding? No
As for comparing the sensations 'in the car' with sitting in front of a pc... there are enough force feedback devices programmed into simulator models that allow for a user (sitting at home with a seat/wheel/screen/pedal combo) to be able to relate to the situation as Jens did.

Have you ever tried any of these simulation 'games' properly? (ie: with the FF wheel/seat/pedal?)

So for races like last sunday do we need to sit in a bathtub and turn on the shower to get the real "feeling" ? :p :