Just how good is Stoner? [Archive]

gco0307

3rd July 2008, 10:55

1. Can he keep up his constant demolition of teammates? Not sure that it is his constant demolition more than the others not lifting their game to compete. I would expect that he will not keep demolishing his team-mate when another competitive rider (in terms of on that machine) is found but I can guarantee that he is looking forward to the challenge.

2. How many more years of riding at this level (or higher) will it take for Stoner to become a motorcycling 'great' the same way that Rossi or Agostini or Hailwood are? It probably depends on the judge. To me there are very few true greats in global terms and I rate very few riders as great. Mind you this is because I only rate those riders that I have seen ride whether that be on television (watching their career) or in person.
There is absolutely no doubt (IMO) that CS can one day make the all time great list but I feel that he needs to sustain a high level of performance (consistency), overcome adversity and setbacks and win a few more championships.

Without a doubt he's good but is he more exciting to watch than Rossi? I dont think so :D

I recognise what you mean but I suppose it comes down to what one wants to see when watching (and that is not criticism).
Me, I just enjoy watching the rider input as he/she tries to control the beast of a bike while hitting their same lines and markers, the symetry of man and machine, the sheer ness of the bikes and so on.
Whether a race be won by 15 seconds or has 15 bikes separated by 1 second, I can enjoy it based on what I look for in a race.
Of course, a close hard fought battle can provide far more 'edge of seats' viewing than a runaway, but for me each can well be equal in many terms.

Sure he's good, maybe the best in the world with his Ducati? But next to that, he's for sure the most boring GP rider at the moment(Y)

Just wondering, how is Stoner boring?

Or do you mean the manner of his wins?

Garry

Corny

3rd July 2008, 10:59

gco0307

3rd July 2008, 11:38

indeed the way he wins, I haven't even seen him cheering to the public in Assen for one time!

Next to that, he's ALWAYS complaining about something..

I've heard him pushing his fans away when they asked his signature!

the only thing that is not boring about him, is his bike and its sound..

Well, in the complaining department he sure is not alone as all riders complain when things go wrong, and often even when things go right. CS is no worse in the complaining department than most other riders, just that due to his position as both World Champion and Rossi challenger he gets a lot or air play on the media. Personally, for me it is not even 'complaining' as it is his job to ensure that everything is right in terms of meeting his end goal, if he has to voice a concern then so be it.

Interesting also that you comment about his 'allegedly' pushing fans away as I have heard the complete opposite from a number of people. Actually, I know of a number of people who have actually found him very accomodating, pleasant and only to willing to please when they have spoken with or asked him a question.

Mind you, the circumstances are crucial as these people all made sure that he was not in 'race mode' as every rider will be somewhat 'prickly' when they have that race face on.

Garry

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 11:57

People are used to Rossi being champion who is a very flamboyant character, both on and off the bike. Stoner is one of these people that just wants to win, whereas Rossi seems to enjoy the fight to win and I think that is the difference.

Most riders display some sort of passion, Nicky, Colin, Vale, Loris, they're all riders who where their heart on their sleve where people like Pedrosa and Stoner are much more introverted

Rallyst3ve

3rd July 2008, 12:16

Yep Stoner is a great rider but for me personally its more enjoyable to see a great battle at the front of the field lets hope that happens at the next round :D

maxu05

3rd July 2008, 12:50

It seems that many people expect CS to be a rock star or an entertainer. There have been a few riders that have been extroverts, Barry Sheene, Rossi spring to mind. I have watched Lorenzo try to emulate Rossi with his post race celebrations, and IMO, just looks foolish. I would rather that CS does his own thing, and that's just what he does. If there is a problem with the bike, he says it, if he makes a mistake, he says it. I don't like to see riders have a problem, and smile at the camera like everything is cool just to appease the sponsors. Mick Doohan told it like it is, Bayliss tells it like it is. I guess that's the way Aussies are, NO BS :)

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 13:05

3rd July 2008, 13:25

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 13:53

Yeah..........must be a bit of a bore to some people seeing that Casey Stoner is just a stock-standard, uncomplicated, well-rounded, experienced, cool-headed, top-shelf rider and world champion who doesn't even wear his cap back-to-front.

Ummm, yeah. That was pretty much my point. As I said already, one performing seal is enough and he's pretty damn good at it.

No one has called into question the talent of the bloke but if I was given the option of going down the pub with either him or Colin Edwards or Nicky, or Vale then I'd choose one of the latter 3 because I get the impression that by about half nine Casey would be making his excuses and going home*. I'm not saying that he's not what a bike rider should be but that he is a bit of a dull bloke (at least that's the impression I get). It is far easier to acheive legendary status if you are also a bit of a character (whether you like it or not, it is most probably true).

If Casey continues to have a bike which he can win with then he will become a legend but it would be quicker to happen if he had a different image. I'm not saying that it's right that it should be that way, just that I believe it to be the case.

*Mind you the missus isn't a bad excuse to go home at 9:30 ;)

maxu05

3rd July 2008, 14:16

ZX7Robert

3rd July 2008, 15:13

For being World Champions, both the Ducati bike and Stoner himself remain as enigmatic as ever, making questions like this practically unanswerable.

We saw Ducati relatively competitive right out of the box in MotoGP, then take a step backwards, then find their way again with Capirossi. Stoner has made inferrences to the fact that the Capirossi-era bike and his are basically incomparable. So, coupled with the fact that Melandri says he can't turn the thing, is this bike even all that great? Did it actually take a step *backwards* last year? Sure, it's quick in a straight line, but is it more delinquent in the corners as it is dominant on the straights? And is its straight-line prowess at least somewhat due to Stoner's superior corner exits?

I don't think anyone knows the answer to these questions. Well, actually, quite a few people do, but I don't think Ducati would tell the world how Stoner has to work miracles to compensate for their sub-standard bike, if that were the case.

Maybe just as apt a question is, how good is Niccolo Canepa?

I don't think the racing world has seen a situation like this; where you have a championship-winning vehicle, a quality 2nd driver/rider (a world champion in his own right!) of like nationality that one would think is getting full factory support (both mechanically AND emotionally), and yet he can't ride/drive the vehicle. He just can't.

It's a weird deal. But one thing no one can do, given the information we have, is say that Stoner is overrated, or that he's just winning because of the bike; the evidence just doesn't support that.

DezinerPaul

3rd July 2008, 15:29

1. Can he keep up his constant demolition of teammates?

2. How many more years of riding at this level (or higher) will it take for Stoner to become a motorcycling 'great' the same way that Rossi or Agostini or Hailwood are?

He will NEVER be an Ago or "The Doctor". He is a young kid with a rocket for a bike. There is one kid who is about to become the man, it's not Stoner.

maxu05

3rd July 2008, 15:53

A rocket of a bike that only one rider has mastered. before 2007, Casey had not won a world title, Melandri had, so he is no mug. We have 3 other riders aboard the Ducati, yet they struggle from week to week. So you are saying that a rider that can master the hardest bike to ride in the Motogp paddock, battle with arguably the greatest rider in Motogp/500cc history and beat him, has no hope of becoming one of the greats. All I can say is "watch this space"

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 15:58

Aah crap. DezinerPaul is here. There goes the friendly neighbourhood. :laugh:

ShiftingGears

3rd July 2008, 16:15

He will NEVER be an Ago or "The Doctor". He is a young kid with a rocket for a bike. There is one kid who is about to become the man, it's not Stoner.

Thanks for once again presenting your opinions as facts.

ShiftingGears

3rd July 2008, 16:22

Yep Stoner is a great rider but for me personally its more enjoyable to see a great battle at the front of the field lets hope that happens at the next round :D

It's happened several times with Stoner, like Catalunya last year, and Qatar last year. Edge of your seat racing, and great duelling.

You'll see more of it when Stoner's bike is evenly matched with the frontrunners.

Anyone who thinks Stoner is boring on the bike just might be overlooking Pedrosa! I've never seen him in a duel, because whenever he's challenged he just goes backwards!

DezinerPaul

3rd July 2008, 16:27

Thanks for once again presenting your opinions as facts.

We are talking about mototrcycles, different ball game. Now back to the question, regarding Casey. As much as he seems a nice kid and is riding the bike well, you can take it to the bank that he is not the second coming, he will not even become Aust best. All that being said, Casey has been in Europe for a long time and has raced these guys and never before has got the better of them. The difference for CS, is clearly the bike and what a great bike it is, it's pull at the end of the long straights is unbelievable.
There is however a young guy, that is clearly marked for stardom Jorge Lorenza, he I think is the only person than can stop Dani Pedroza, the two are clearly the class of the field when it comes to talent!

ShiftingGears

3rd July 2008, 16:44

We are talking about mototrcycles, different ball game.

Irrelevant.

Now back to the question, regarding Casey. As much as he seems a nice kid and is riding the bike well, you can take it to the bank that he is not the second coming, he will not even become Aust best.

Nearly won in that highly second rate bike in '06, in one of his first races.
Avoid using definites, it makes you look like an idiot.

All that being said, Casey has been in Europe for a long time and has raced these guys and never before has got the better of them.
How, then?

Since you will probably use the Pedrosa in 250cc statistic from 2005, lets cover that. They weren't teammates, and four out of the top five in the championship rode Hondas. That suggests to me that Pedrosa was on the superior bike that year.

The difference for CS, is clearly the bike and what a great bike it is, it's pull at the end of the long straights is unbelievable.
There is however a young guy, that is clearly marked for stardom Jorge Lorenza, he I think is the only person than can stop Dani Pedroza, the two are clearly the class of the field when it comes to talent!

Oh. So whenever Stoner wins it's because of the bike, and whenever Pedrosa Or Lorenzo wins its because they're the second coming.

Get real.

Considering how Casey Stoner has crushed his teammates, I think thats entirely wrong. Pedrosa can't even put a move on someone unless he's ahead going into the braking zone. He lacks commitment and its damn obvious. And he can't ride in the wet. We will see about Jorge, and whether he will regain confidence.

Ordinary riders do not crush their racewinning teammates like Stoner does.

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 16:49

We are talking about mototrcycles, different ball game. Now back to the question, regarding Casey. As much as he seems a nice kid and is riding the bike well, you can take it to the bank that he is not the second coming, he will not even become Aust best. All that being said, Casey has been in Europe for a long time and has raced these guys and never before has got the better of them. The difference for CS, is clearly the bike and what a great bike it is, it's pull at the end of the long straights is unbelievable.
There is however a young guy, that is clearly marked for stardom Jorge Lorenza, he I think is the only person than can stop Dani Pedroza, the two are clearly the class of the field when it comes to talent!

You obviously don't pay much attention because the Ducati is known to be a bit of a dog. Yes it's got straight line speed (although other bikes are closer now) but it's not really that good. Stoner is the only guy that can do anything on the bike while his team mate Melandri and the satellite riders are right at the tail end.

I don't know if you are just fishing but what you just said made you come across as a bit stupid and you will be laughed out of town by most of the regular GP viewers on this forum.

Before Lorenzo can stop Pedrosa, Dani will first have to stop Stoner and Rossi. As Mr Squirrel said Dani struggles in battles, largely because he just isn't very good on the brakes. Certainly Lorenzo and Pedrosa are fantastic riders but I think that Rossi and Stoner are better by a tiny amount. All 4 will probably be world champs at some point in the future but if I was going to lay money on any of them it'd be Rossi or Stoner.

DezinerPaul

3rd July 2008, 17:15

You obviously don't pay much attention because the Ducati is known to be a bit of a dog. Yes it's got straight line speed (although other bikes are closer now) but it's not really that good. Stoner is the only guy that can do anything on the bike while his team mate Melandri and the satellite riders are right at the tail end.

I don't know if you are just fishing but what you just said made you come across as a bit stupid and you will be laughed out of town by most of the regular GP viewers on this forum.

Before Lorenzo can stop Pedrosa, Dani will first have to stop Stoner and Rossi. As Mr Squirrel said Dani struggles in battles, largely because he just isn't very good on the brakes. Certainly Lorenzo and Pedrosa are fantastic riders but I think that Rossi and Stoner are better by a tiny amount. All 4 will probably be world champs at some point in the future but if I was going to lay money on any of them it'd be Rossi or Stoner.

Rossi is in the twilight of his career. DP and JL are proven over their entire careers, they are the future of Moto GP. Why do you think that JL was picked as VR team mate, because they feel that he is the real deal.
As for the Duc being a bit of a dog, fiddle sticks. Don't judge the bike by Marco, the guy had some serious off's and has lost it, shame as he really was starting to sparkle. As for title, DP will very hard to beat this year., he is so consistent, not sure he can be caught!

ShiftingGears

3rd July 2008, 17:25

As for the Duc being a bit of a dog, fiddle sticks.

:laugh: :laugh:

What is this based on?

:laugh:

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 17:36

Rossi is in the twilight of his career. Yup :up: At 29 he's really looking at buying a zimmer frame :rolleyes:

DP and JL are proven over their entire careers, they are the future of Moto GP.

Right, and the current World Champion and 7 times champ aren't?

Why do you think that JL was picked as VR team mate, because they feel that he is the real deal.

Agreed, as are Pedrosa, Stoner and Rossi.

As for the Duc being a bit of a dog, fiddle sticks. Don't judge the bike by Marco, the guy had some serious off's and has lost it, shame as he really was starting to sparkle.

Don't judge it by Marco, or anything that is being said by people around MotoGP? Melandri finished 5th in last years championship and is a race winner. Now if we're talking serious offs and losing sparkle the man of the moment is Lorenzo who seems to have no confidence at the minute.

As for title, DP will very hard to beat this year., he is so consistent, not sure he can be caught!

Yup, 4 points is a lot to make up in MotoGP :rolleyes:

DezinerPaul

3rd July 2008, 18:04

:laugh: :laugh:

What is this based on?

:laugh:

The fact that a guy, who could not win, if his life depended on it, starts winning when he gets on the bike!

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 18:10

The fact that a guy, who could not win, if his life depended on it, starts winning when he gets on the bike!

Yet a guy who could win got on it and started losing, go figure.

maxu05

3rd July 2008, 18:13

DezinerPaul

3rd July 2008, 18:21

You are in the wrong forum DezinerPaul. Over here we look at things in a more constructive manner, and respect each others views. Please consider this when you post here please. You have a right to your opinion of course, but please back it up and try not to insult others with outlandish claims.

Not sure what you are smoking, you sure are not reading what I have said. The fact is I have an opinion, like anybody else, I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here. You ask me to back up my opinion, yet the person who started this topic, had the opinion, that Stoner was the second coming, without backing it up. As for your condescending attitude, please keep it to yourself.

maxu05

3rd July 2008, 18:24

Yeah right. Bye, please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

F1boat

3rd July 2008, 18:34

I like Casey. I think that he is better than Pedrosa and about Lorenzo, we'll see. He's too wild IMO.
I also like Casey's personality and way of winning. Vale's way is annoying to me. Casey loooks like dominator, on and off track. He is great.
The bike argument is laughable. Ask Marco Melandri.

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 18:37

I don't think John was condescending. Everyone gets along alright on the bike forum, which I think most of us are fairly proud about. If anything your assumption that you know more about racing than any of us is the condescending (and arrogant) comment.

You say you know more about racing than most but seem to have a view that is different from pretty much everyone else involved in the sport. Stoner is undoubtedly a quick rider. He has absolutely walked the last two GPs whilst good riders on the same bike have struggled. Whilst you could attribute Assen to the Dukes speed advantage (which I think speed traps will tell you is not as big as it was), Donnington is not a straightline track.

In fact at high speed tracks like Catalunya and Estoril he has struggled. At Shanghai and PortugalRossi was only 3 kph off the Ducatis. Sorry but that small speed advantage cannot account for such a gap.

MrJan

3rd July 2008, 18:37

Yeah right. Bye, please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yeah, we don't want to chip the paint :D

maxu05

3rd July 2008, 18:41

:cheese:

4th July 2008, 00:31

Facts from official Moto GP site.......................................

"With a background in Australian dirt-track, Stoner boldly moved to Europe as a teenager, where he shone on a 125cc machine in the UK and Spain. A five-year rise into MotoGP saw two 125cc wins and five 250cc successes, and he even managed a podium result with 2nd place on only his third MotoGP outing in 2006.

After only two years Stoner is already the 5th best performer ever in MotoGP in terms of appearances and victories. Only four other riders have won 8 or more premier-class races in a single season - Mick Doohan, Giacomo Agostini, Valentino Rossi and Mike Hailwood.
Stoner is the second youngest rider to win the premier class title after 1983 Champion Freddie Spencer. His debut win in Qatar in 2007 made him the first Australian rider to win in all three current GP classes."

His history speaks for itself. This is racing at its finest so sit back and enjoy.

gco0307

4th July 2008, 01:25

Not sure what you are smoking, you sure are not reading what I have said. The fact is I have an opinion, like anybody else, I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here.

Mate, with respects.

When you go making a statement like 'I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here' I sure do hope you can back it up if asked. So, before I answer I will say where I am coming from, so that you may (or may not) understand.

Have been following racing for 25 or so years and worked numerous race meetings throughout Australia for a few years now. Have a number of personal friends and acquantainces who have worked in all forms of racing internationally from officials, through riders, through to team members. This has given me an insight into the racing scene but I can guarantee you taht there are many in this forum and other places that have far more knowledge that I do. So that out of the way, into my comments.

You have every right to believe the way you do, it is after all you opinion but do not be surprised if people as you to back it up and times anmd/or explain in a different manner to make your thoughts more understood.

I see that for one, you obviously do not rate Casey Stoner to highly by comparison to Jorge Lorenzo (JL) or Dani Pedrosa (DP) when talk of sheer abilities is discussed. As a comparison, in the 2005 250cc championship woin by DP with 309 points (won 8 races), CS finished second on 254 points (won 5 races) and JL fith on 167 (no wins but 4 seconds). That year saw CS as the only non Honda in the top 4 which would indicate that teh Honda had the better bike, or riders (individual take on that one).

In 2004, DP won the world 250cc title with 317 points and 7 race wins. That year CS and JL both competed in the 125cc with JL fourth on 179 points (3 wins, 5 dnf) to CS in fith on 145 points (1 win, 7 dnf's). In the case of 2004, JL slightly shaded CS and neither can be compared to DP.

Now, lets looks at 2006 (leaving JL out as he was not in MotoGP).

DP was signed by teh Respol Honda factory team, one of the more sought after positions in the paddock whilst CS entered MotpGP with LCR to ride a satellite Honda. It is commonly accepoted (and acknowledged world wide) that the satellite bikes are not the equal of the factory bikes, nor do they receive the same support or equipment from other suppliers.

In 2006 Dani finished fifth in his rookie year, a tremendous result with 2 wins and 2 seconds (2 dnf), whilst Casey finished 8th with a second as his best result (7 dnf). Certainly on results one could suggest that DP was superior in 2006, although I would argue that when the teams and equipment levels are weighted the season of CS was impressive.

In that rookie year CS finished in front of established riders (in descending order from 9th) Hopkins, Vermuelen, Tamada, Gibernau, Nakano, Chea and others.

In my opinion, CS' first year showed that the guy has the ability necessary to master the larger capacity machine.

To date in the premier class it is fair to say that CS has the better reults of both DP and JL but all are in the early stages of their careers and without doubt all will continue to learn and improve. It will be clearer to all in 5 or so years where these three riders sit in terms of championships and also how history will judge them.

For me, CS is at this stage the better or the listed three in the MotoGP class, although I must say that Lorenzo has really impressed (IMO, far more so than DP).

Garry

patnicholls

4th July 2008, 01:28

Not sure what you are smoking, you sure are not reading what I have said. The fact is I have an opinion, like anybody else, I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here. You ask me to back up my opinion, yet the person who started this topic, had the opinion, that Stoner was the second coming, without backing it up. As for your condescending attitude, please keep it to yourself.

Hello.

Welcome to the forums.

You might want to try being on here for more than five days before you decide to slag off people who have been on here for years and are well-known and respected amongst these parts. ("I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most on here" - way to endear yourself, I don't think)

As for your posts - yep, Vale is definitely in the twilight of his career. Except that it's been a good twilight as he was leading the championship before Assen with a few wins, and is just 4 points behind at present. Not to mention the seven titles beforehand, as Jan mentioned.

No-one's saying Dani, Jorge, or Casey are rubbish - far from it as already mentioned. Indeed, the starter of this thread was posing the question as to how good Casey is.

DezinerPaul

4th July 2008, 05:31

Mate, with respects.

When you go making a statement like 'I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here' I sure do hope you can back it up if asked. So, before I answer I will say where I am coming from, so that you may (or may not) understand.

Have been following racing for 25 or so years and worked numerous race meetings throughout Australia for a few years now. Have a number of personal friends and acquantainces who have worked in all forms of racing internationally from officials, through riders, through to team members. This has given me an insight into the racing scene but I can guarantee you taht there are many in this forum and other places that have far more knowledge that I do. So that out of the way, into my comments.

You have every right to believe the way you do, it is after all you opinion but do not be surprised if people as you to back it up and times anmd/or explain in a different manner to make your thoughts more understood.

I see that for one, you obviously do not rate Casey Stoner to highly by comparison to Jorge Lorenzo (JL) or Dani Pedrosa (DP) when talk of sheer abilities is discussed. As a comparison, in the 2005 250cc championship woin by DP with 309 points (won 8 races), CS finished second on 254 points (won 5 races) and JL fith on 167 (no wins but 4 seconds). That year saw CS as the only non Honda in the top 4 which would indicate that teh Honda had the better bike, or riders (individual take on that one).

In 2004, DP won the world 250cc title with 317 points and 7 race wins. That year CS and JL both competed in the 125cc with JL fourth on 179 points (3 wins, 5 dnf) to CS in fith on 145 points (1 win, 7 dnf's). In the case of 2004, JL slightly shaded CS and neither can be compared to DP.

Now, lets looks at 2006 (leaving JL out as he was not in MotoGP).

DP was signed by teh Respol Honda factory team, one of the more sought after positions in the paddock whilst CS entered MotpGP with LCR to ride a satellite Honda. It is commonly accepoted (and acknowledged world wide) that the satellite bikes are not the equal of the factory bikes, nor do they receive the same support or equipment from other suppliers.

In 2006 Dani finished fifth in his rookie year, a tremendous result with 2 wins and 2 seconds (2 dnf), whilst Casey finished 8th with a second as his best result (7 dnf). Certainly on results one could suggest that DP was superior in 2006, although I would argue that when the teams and equipment levels are weighted the season of CS was impressive.

In that rookie year CS finished in front of established riders (in descending order from 9th) Hopkins, Vermuelen, Tamada, Gibernau, Nakano, Chea and others.

In my opinion, CS' first year showed that the guy has the ability necessary to master the larger capacity machine.

To date in the premier class it is fair to say that CS has the better reults of both DP and JL but all are in the early stages of their careers and without doubt all will continue to learn and improve. It will be clearer to all in 5 or so years where these three riders sit in terms of championships and also how history will judge them.

For me, CS is at this stage the better or the listed three in the MotoGP class, although I must say that Lorenzo has really impressed (IMO, far more so than DP).

Garry

Nice post, I agree with a lot that you said. Same two points though, Casey has never dominated, before the Duc, his KTM was clearly the class of the field in it's last season, it was him that blew a title chance, not the bike.
To say at this point, that he is the second coming is doing a huge injustice , to the real greats, Micky D, Ago, VR and Hailwood. Those guys are just very special and Casey has never looked to be in their class. You said forget Jorge, but the guy dominated 250's for 2 years, he comes in to Moto and is faster than Vali, sure he has had some huge offs, yet even though he is riding with serious pain ‘X Fuera’ is still in the top 4 and is still making passes late in the race. If there is one young guy, that looks like a VR in the making it is him. That being said Dani P is still to guy to beat this year, he is just so consistent, Vali has had a few mistakes that have let others in (never thought I would say that)

DezinerPaul

4th July 2008, 05:37

Hello.

Welcome to the forums.

You might want to try being on here for more than five days before you decide to slag off people who have been on here for years and are well-known and respected amongst these parts. ("I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most on here" - way to endear yourself, I don't think)

As for your posts - yep, Vale is definitely in the twilight of his career. Except that it's been a good twilight as he was leading the championship before Assen with a few wins, and is just 4 points behind at present. Not to mention the seven titles beforehand, as Jan mentioned.

No-one's saying Dani, Jorge, or Casey are rubbish - far from it as already mentioned. Indeed, the starter of this thread was posing the question as to how good Casey is.

It was said tongue in cheek so to speak, was sparked at one particular person and did not choose my words wisely. Nobody can question Stoner's ability, just want to make it clear, that if one is objective, they are not going to consider him as the second coming.
His chances of the title this year are not that good, last year he had a dominant bike, end of.
How good is Stoner? My guess is that he could end up with 2 maybe 3 titles, is he as good as ‘X Fuera’ for my money, I am not sure anybody is as good as the young man from Spain, he is a rare talent.

gco0307

4th July 2008, 06:10

Nice post, I agree with a lot that you said. Same two points though, Casey has never dominated, before the Duc, his KTM was clearly the class of the field in it's last season, it was him that blew a title chance, not the bike.
To say at this point, that he is the second coming is doing a huge injustice , to the real greats, Micky D, Ago, VR and Hailwood. Those guys are just very special and Casey has never looked to be in their class. You said forget Jorge, but the guy dominated 250's for 2 years, he comes in to Moto and is faster than Vali, sure he has had some huge offs, yet even though he is riding with serious pain ‘X Fuera’ is still in the top 4 and is still making passes late in the race. If there is one young guy, that looks like a VR in the making it is him. That being said Dani P is still to guy to beat this year, he is just so consistent, Vali has had a few mistakes that have let others in (never thought I would say that)

CS is (IMO) not the second coming and will need to do some wondrous things before I rate hims as such, nor do I see to many people doing so just yet. For me, the true greats from those I have seen are the likes of Doohan, Rainey, Lawson, Spencer and very few others come close (I so miss the 500 era).

With regards to Lorenzo, I meant forget him in terms of my 2006 comparison as he was alone in 250cc (not competing against either of the other two), apologies I did not clarify that aspect.

I must say that I do disagree in terms with your ratings of CS as I feel that at this stage and in MGP terms he is readily the equal of DP (possibly slightly surpassed) and that Lorenzo is not yet there (although I suspect will be next year and for me, is easily the rookie of the year no matter what happens).

The shame is that many people are already lamenting the loss of Rossi when he retires, but me, I am so looking forward to the likes of CS, DP, JL and the multitude of others that will be there to provide what I feel will be another golden age of talent.

Garry

The Phantom

4th July 2008, 06:23

Rossi is in the twilight of his career.

That one's not worth touching.

DP and JL are proven over their entire careers, they are the future of Moto GP.

They are, but you seem to forget that those two have had the top machinery and tyres all the way through. Stoner was on privateer bikes most of the time, and the KTM was still in development when he rode it and was certainly not the top bike in the field at any point.

Why do you think that JL was picked as VR team mate, because they feel that he is the real deal.

Because he is a Spanish golden boy. If you don't know how that side of the race equation works, you're wasting your time here.

Ignoring the post-MotoGP careers of all three former 250 greats, it's Stoner who has the runs on the board in MotoGP, no? So for the time being, the 'future of MotoGP' have got to beat both Stoner and Rossi to prove their claim to the title... they are the ones with something to prove, not Stoner. So for all intents and purposes they are irrelevant in this discussion.

Rossi, however, is not irrelevant when talking of Stoner's claim to (future) fame.

If you know both Rossi and Stoner's histories (from childhood) you'll know that in many senses they have grown up to become the dominant riders of their times. Both have raced and won from the earliest age, and have dominated in every series available to them.

Stoner certainly has the potential to go down in the books as one of the greats.

Regarding the 'boring' comments - Rossi was as dominant as Stoner for years, but the big difference is that Rossi makes errors, then has to ride like a demon to get back to the front. How many times has he thrilled us in this scenario?

Stoner, however, doesn't make so many mistakes - although we have seen a few in 08 while he attempts to tame the recalcitrant GP8. Now that it seems to be sorted, perhaps people could nicely ask Stoner if he will slow down a bit to give the fans a bit more of a spectacle? :rolleyes:

gco0307

4th July 2008, 06:25

How good is Stoner? My guess is that he could end up with 2 maybe 3 titles, is he as good as ‘X Fuera’ for my money, I am not sure anybody is as good as the young man from Spain, he is a rare talent.

Being honest, we will soon find out how good JL really is (and I suspect that he is the goods).

Why do I say this?

Well, to me one mark of a rider is how they recover from setbacks (in terms of injury) and this year JL has had his fair share, just as CS also experienced his in the years gone prior to 2007. To me it is how a rider recovers from these injuries in terms of whether it has a negative impact on their racing, that determines whether a person has the necessary mental and physical drive to succeed (not all racers go through it I might add).

This year we have seen JL suffer a few injuries which could well dent the confidence of some, so how he comes back will be a good measure. To date, it does look positive for him in that recovery but we will need to see at the end of the year or start of next.

I say this in terms of the person I use as the ultimate measure, Mick Doohan (CS reminds me of MD in so many ways). MD suffered a number of injuries that woudl have destroyed many a career but through sheer mental and physical toughness went on to become one of the greatest of all time. He was able to show the necessary determination that IMO is a prerequisite and defining character between a very good rider, a great rider, and a freak.

Garry

DezinerPaul

4th July 2008, 07:42

Being honest, we will soon find out how good JL really is (and I suspect that he is the goods).

Why do I say this?

Well, to me one mark of a rider is how they recover from setbacks (in terms of injury) and this year JL has had his fair share, just as CS also experienced his in the years gone prior to 2007. To me it is how a rider recovers from these injuries in terms of whether it has a negative impact on their racing, that determines whether a person has the necessary mental and physical drive to succeed (not all racers go through it I might add).

This year we have seen JL suffer a few injuries which could well dent the confidence of some, so how he comes back will be a good measure. To date, it does look positive for him in that recovery but we will need to see at the end of the year or start of next.

I say this in terms of the person I use as the ultimate measure, Mick Doohan (CS reminds me of MD in so many ways). MD suffered a number of injuries that woudl have destroyed many a career but through sheer mental and physical toughness went on to become one of the greatest of all time. He was able to show the necessary determination that IMO is a prerequisite and defining character between a very good rider, a great rider, and a freak.

Garry

While one poster keeps trying to tell me that Stoner has always been a force and that his career, is close to that of VR (which I find laughable) Your post make far more sense, although I cannot see and part of Micky D is Stoner, he has just not been the bright light that Mick was. That being said Mick did have a dominant Honda for most of his GP career and he took some time to shine at that level, however his form with Yamaha in the late 80's was sparkling, he was the man in Japan for quite some time.
The best of the modern era is Vali, nobody else is close and Casey Stoner is no Rossi and he never will be.

ShiftingGears

4th July 2008, 08:24

Casey Stoner is no Rossi and he never will be.

You haven't supported this with any fact (besides saying that Stoner didn't win because his machinery was second rate). And for your information, Stoner came damn close to winning with that privateer bike in Turkey '06. Now for your superior knowledge (or inability to accept opinions other than your own) you should have known that.

I did not say he is the second coming. But if he keeps obliterating teammates in the fashion he has, I think he will be one of the greats.

leopard

4th July 2008, 08:41

Great to have new names, keep posting :up:

General viewers, except the fanatic fans of Rossi, wouldn't be lamenting too bad once Rossi decided to leave motoGP, retired or racing elsewhere. Stoner-Pedrosa dice can give the same unpredicted result who will frequently appear on top of another. Another side of the dice we have Lorenzo and Dovisiozo, also have their probability to be on top of the main side of the dice. I think the fight will remain sweet with or without Rossi.

We might roughly conclude how good Stoner was, at least from his last year title and incomparable teammate who have the same talent to ride the same bike as that of Stoner. So... I think No, he doesn't need to slow the bike down for the sake of spectator. We know that it wasn't easy to ride the bike, he is just clever. :)

maxu05

4th July 2008, 09:24

gco0307

4th July 2008, 09:54

Your post make far more sense, although I cannot see and part of Micky D is Stoner, he has just not been the bright light that Mick was. That being said Mick did have a dominant Honda for most of his GP career and he took some time to shine at that level, however his form with Yamaha in the late 80's was sparkling, he was the man in Japan for quite some time.
The best of the modern era is Vali, nobody else is close and Casey Stoner is no Rossi and he never will be.

Their careers parallel in terms of the manner of their riding.

They both are the type of rider who will dominate both individual race fields or championship years as they share the same 'rub their noses in it' winning mentality. MD would just as rather win by 40 seconds (and did on occasions) than 4, CS is the same.

Both had troublesome first years (md as third HRC rider behind Lawson and Gardner) with those years being interspersed with spectacular crashes (Dooham losing finger as example).

Needless to say, both are Aussies with a 'take it or leave it' attitude and bot 'say as they see' which can get them offside as they don't play the 'political game'.

IMO, there is a lot of MD in CS in teh way he approaches everything about his racing.

There you lose me as Mick did not ride for Yamaha in Japan as a team member. Mick was drafter to Honda as the direct result of his winning both rounds of the the WSBK races held at Oran Park on Sydney's outskirts lapping then cham,pion Fred Merkel (amongst other WC contenders of the era) in both races. Certainly he was racing a Yamaha 750 at the time but it was with the Australian domestic Yamaha team (team-mate was Mick Dowson who finished second in both races).

Now, of course CS is no VR and never will be, that also goes without saying.

CS is not the media savvy (some would say seeking) extroverted personality of VR, nor does he put on post race celebrations in the style of VR (give me a CS wheelie any day). Without doubt, he does not want to be like him in this regard as the intrusion is to great and CS is a humble, private person.

But on a results fron, CS still has plenty of time to get close, equal or better VR's premier class record should all things fall into place. Do I expect it to occur, no I don't, but to say that he 'never will be' is neither correct or prophetic at this stage.

Garry

gco0307

4th July 2008, 10:06

Anyone that can ride a bike that the likes of Melandri, Capirossi, Elias, Bayliss,(except for one race in Troys case) and Guintoli have floundered on and dominated a seaon and won the title, and is now beginning to show the same form after a not so good start to the season, has earned my respect, and shows that he is a major force in Motogp.

Agree.

I will be fair and say that IMO we have to look at 2007 and 2008 separately given that CS had very little, if indeed any input into the 2007 bike which would have primarily been developed for Loris as he was the established rider. IMO this makes CS' performance in 2007 (particularly) in the early pieces of the season more meritorious. However, we also need to temper that with the fact that we had a change in capacity and fuel limits at the time which meant that each and every bike was an unknown quantity.

In 2007 CS and the Ducati had found the perfect matches for each other and it showed from the start and whilst the others made ground, they simply could not catch, never mind surpass the CS/Ducati package..

In 2008, the bike wasn't quite there at the start but CS still won in Qatar, after that however things did not go well. The bike showed some cantankerous stability, handling and steering issues which meant that CS often looked like he was riding a wild bucking bronco of a motorcycle, being honest, much like the old 500 days. The impressive thing being that he still managed more than acceptable results by anyone's standards and placed the bike on the podium or near enough.

To me this was more impressive that 2007 as in 2008 both Yamaha and Honda had lifted their games substantially to the point where they were superior packages, yet CS was still up there with them. Now of course Ducati have sorted issues and CS is back 'at home' with the bike and the results are there for all to see.

IMO, CS has more than enough ability, mental toughness, attitude and above all, desire to be a success in MGP for a great number of years. But I temper that by saying that I believe we are headed to an era where to dominate will be difficult given the number of extremely gifted youngsters either in MGP or on their way.

The very interesting point regarding the other Ducati's came in the recent Assen race, where both Melandri and Elias improved their lap-times by 0.800 of a second or thereabouts as VR caught them. Whilst it may seem that the riders here are the rpoblem, the times improved as they pushed the bike, something that CS does from the get go.

The guy is good, you don't get to MGP without some form of pedigree.

Garry

NinjaMaster

4th July 2008, 14:08

1. Can he keep up his constant demolition of teammates?

2. How many more years of riding at this level (or higher) will it take for Stoner to become a motorcycling 'great' the same way that Rossi or Agostini or Hailwood are?

Wouldn't have thought this thread suggested that Stoner was anything but asked how good he is/will be.

Stoner is a sensational talent though to be considered an all time great he's really gonna have to win 4 or 5 titles I would've thought. Which would be a mammoth effort against Rossi (still a massive force even in the 'twilight' of his career), Pedrosa, Lorenzo and Dovizioso and who knows who else will come along during the period of their careers. I really see those 5 of fairly similar ability with perhaps the separating factors being a small edge in machinery as well as the mental strength to fight like their life depends on it.
Like a few on here, I would also compare Casey to Doohan in terms of character. Mick crashed a bit early in his career much like Casey but when they matured, domination is their aim. Both are of a fairly quiet nature but not shy, they will say what they think without pulling any punches. Time will tell if his record will be comparable to Mighty Mick's.

We really are spoilt for quality in MotoGP at the moment. The next decade will be a classic era of Grand Prix racing and we are privileged to witness it.

DezinerPaul

5th July 2008, 04:16

Wouldn't have thought this thread suggested that Stoner was anything but asked how good he is/will be.

Stoner is a sensational talent though to be considered an all time great he's really gonna have to win 4 or 5 titles I would've thought. Which would be a mammoth effort against Rossi (still a massive force even in the 'twilight' of his career), Pedrosa, Lorenzo and Dovizioso and who knows who else will come along during the period of their careers. I really see those 5 of fairly similar ability with perhaps the separating factors being a small edge in machinery as well as the mental strength to fight like their life depends on it.
Like a few on here, I would also compare Casey to Doohan in terms of character. Mick crashed a bit early in his career much like Casey but when they matured, domination is their aim. Both are of a fairly quiet nature but not shy, they will say what they think without pulling any punches. Time will tell if his record will be comparable to Mighty Mick's.

We really are spoilt for quality in MotoGP at the moment. The next decade will be a classic era of Grand Prix racing and we are privileged to witness it.

Good call, I agree that we could be on the verge of the best ever GP racing, the stage is set, talent, committed teams, huge fan base. For my money, I see JL as the most exciting prospect since The Doctor, time will tell.

Mach24

5th July 2008, 10:33

Casey is a Champion and I beleive he has a few more in him. Perhaps not to the extend of Rossi and Doohan before him.

The two young Spaniards have something to prove. We saw it with Sete and Alex Criville, mental strength to perform under extreme pressure at the highest level. I think both Dani and Jorge are the best all round Spanish riders yet to front on a MotoGP (500cc) grid.

The other quantity not to write off is Dovi, I think he has the aura of a Champion and he will be a force once on factory HRC machinery in 09. However Dani is the number one son and will therefore get the total support of HRC.

MrJan

5th July 2008, 10:47

The other quantity not to write off is Dovi, I think he has the aura of a Champion and he will be a force once on factory HRC machinery in 09. However Dani is the number one son and will therefore get the total support of HRC.

:up: I've been very impressed with Dovi thus far on the independant machine. Could he be the next Stoner? ;) :p :

Corny

5th July 2008, 10:50

BTW isn't it a bit weird to make a thread with how good Stoner is? He's the world champion of MotoGP, everyone that gets champion in a way he did, is an exceptional talent..

Even though I don't like him :p

Mach24

5th July 2008, 11:38

:up: I've been very impressed with Dovi thus far on the independant machine. Could he be the next Stoner? ;) :p :

The Third coming, so to speak.

Mike65

5th July 2008, 18:06

:up: I've been very impressed with Dovi thus far on the independant machine. Could he be the next Stoner? ;) :p :

It's a little early to say, but if Bautistas can get some constistancy, and maintain that and his impressive pace into motgp then a few years down the track we may find out that Stoner was actually the previous Bautista.

Wim_Impreza

5th July 2008, 18:49

It's a little early to say, but if Bautistas can get some constistancy, and maintain that and his impressive pace into motgp then a few years down the track we may find out that Stoner was actually the previous Bautista.

Please don't say that. Bautista is performing very bad in rain, Stoner is excellent in rain. A complete rider drives well in all weather conditions, this is my opinion.

NinjaMaster

6th July 2008, 09:13

Please don't say that. Bautista is performing very bad in rain, Stoner is excellent in rain. A complete rider drives well in all weather conditions, this is my opinion.
Yes but Vale was pretty ordinary in the rain during his tiddler and early 500 days but is now pretty much as good as anyone. Pedrosa was also woeful but now is a fiarly solid wet rider and getting better. Remember that these guys are still very young and getting better. Said that, I'm not 100% sold on Alvaro yet.

The Phantom

6th July 2008, 16:38

I like this quote from Kropotkin (discussing the finer point of qualifying and getting off the line in the race):

The reigning World Champion Casey Stoner is a master of both arts. His starting reflexes are sublime, honed as a child dirt-track racer. When the race only lasts a couple of minutes, you can't afford to waste even the tiniest fraction of a second, and Casey Stoner cherishes every thousandth he can gain. But Stoner is also astounding in practice, establishing his place at the top of the timesheets in any given session early, and not relinquishing it without a major fight. He has a knack of dominating almost every session of practice at an event from the moment the bikes roll out on track, and doesn't appear to understand the concept of building up slowly.

NinjaMaster

7th July 2008, 10:28

That was something that crossed my mind the other day Phantom, with regards to Stoner's starts. Even on the Honda he was amazing. And that is the thing that 'kills' the spectacle is that because he so often can get the holeshot that he is gone before the others know what him 'em whereas Vale has never really been known for being tops off the line which is what made so many races closer was that he had to pick his way through the pack.

maxu05

13th July 2008, 15:20

How good is Stoner?, pretty damn good if you ask me :up:

The Phantom

13th July 2008, 18:38

The best.

Corny

13th July 2008, 18:41

Stoner together with his ducati, are the best ;)

markabilly

13th July 2008, 19:54

Stoner???
That good?? On current bikes, maybe.

But as to the greats such as Rossi and those before Rossi???

:rotflmao:

On the current electronic traction control Ducati, where what matters most is the willingness to crank open the throttle all the way, just hang on and hold it open, be as skinny as possible (less weight), he is excellent. And some riders that did well a few years ago, can not or will not have the right mental thought process for that kind of riding (Melandri seems to be an excellent example)

Last year, the american and australian wild card riders at Seca, were stunned to discover how good traction control had become in motogp. Just crank it wide open, hold on and go.

Do that on superbike, and it would be crash out city--do that on a 500 back a few years ago, one would be crashing at each and every corner.

Do it on a motogp a few years ago, and as Casey showed time and time again, it was crash out, high side, bounce it everywhere. :arrows:

ROSSI had a special skill at throttle control that made him very superior.

All the great racers (MD, Roberts, et al) have had as it was the fundamental necessity for winning until last year.

Today the need for that skill, that touch is gone.

And the riders of today as long as TC is as it is or gets better, can never be compared to the greats of yesterday.

Ban TC, and Casey would be back to crashing and Rossi back to dominating.

Period.

T-D

13th July 2008, 20:18

markabilly

13th July 2008, 20:32

the urban legend that casey is great because he is able to crank the throttle on the ducati while others cannot is so intuitively wrong that one wonders how it persists. a monkey could crack the throttle open, and the current group of motogp riders would have no problem with that.

casey crashed out because he got crap tires consistently. he was fast. he got a bike that matched his capabilities and tires that provided confidence he needed. the combination is magic.

Not saying there is not some special skills to go like that on that bike, but that which seperated the very good from the very great, is gone.

Casey crashed out because he was always overloading himself on his throttle. No question that Casey had large stones.

Back before TC he was always getting in trouble by being too aggressive with the throttle. Too many highsides coming out of corners demonstrated that. :eek:

Watched him low side himself at Seca, by slamming the throttle on too early, his first year there, at the corner right before the front straight.

My guess is that for current riders who have tossed themselves through their windshield, the record would be held by Stoner. :(

Now, for him, there is not that problem anymore....and the combo of TC and an overly aggressive approach to throttle control is magic for Casey. :D

Corny

13th July 2008, 20:59

Ban TC, and Casey would be back to crashing and Rossi back to dominating.

Yes, the same was said about Felipe Massa, and look who's leading that championship now...

osg

13th July 2008, 21:25

Geez..... i move house and go a few weeks without internet ...... a new bloke rides in and tries to force his views down our throats!!!

DezinerPaul..... care to enlighten us on how your "Golden Children of the 2nd coming" went last night?

What happened?

When are they gonna learn to ride in the wet to make them good in all conditions?

Enlighten me Deziner......

F1boat

13th July 2008, 21:45

Yes, the same was said about Felipe Massa, and look who's leading that championship now...

Besides, everybody who has won so many races is special. I am very tired by people who try to diminish Casey's amazing skills, even when he wins in a wet and hard races like this one.
I hope that he proves himself with several championships.

Wim_Impreza

13th July 2008, 21:47

Yes, the same was said about Felipe Massa, and look who's leading that championship now...

But Massa is really really bad in rain as we again saw last weekend, Stoner is good in all conditions. ;)

markabilly

13th July 2008, 21:59

Yes, the same was said about Felipe Massa, and look who's leading that championship now...
And in the british grand Prix, who was back to crashing.....................our old friend Felipe

The difference is that Rossi and crew were all riding before TC became such a miracle (and if Matt and all the rest of the wildcard riders at Seca last year were to be beleived, it is something of a miracle), and when that was true, Casey was a crashing all the time...must have been the tires,?? Yeah right.

It was the willingness to over-use the right hand, and when TC became the miracle, Roosi lost the edge he had held for so long, the same edge like Mick and all the rest before him, and now Casey was in hog heaven.

When I learned to ride really well and fast, it was when I learned to not use the brake, but to use and control the throttle.

At Code's Superbike school, they use to have the excercise of riding the course and NOT touching the brake, just relying on the throttle. Amazing to see riders suddenly seeing how the throttle was truly the key and over-use of the brakes (and late braking) was costing them some serious time and upsetting the balance of the bike upon entry that affected the exit.

Guys who loved to lift the rear wheel and late brake, discovered why they were getting passed out of the corners and down the straight ("Gee, I figured the other guy just had much more HP" no, he got a better start out of the corner, and was down the road much faster)

All you need is to watch early Motogp, and watch how Rossi was coming out of corners compared to others (esp the close up of his throttle hand)....and others where commentators were talking how old Mick's 500cc "honda factory motor just has more horsepower than others, just watch how he leaves them behind going down the straight..."

well, the advantage was by the time everyone straighten up the bikes out of the corner, old Mick already had about 5 to 10 mph more speed at the start of the straight and the engine into the meat of the narrowest power band on two wheels, with a solid smooth exit, while everyone else was working the throttle and the bike, trying not to highside but not to run off the edge of the tarmac......

Such skills are not the essential that they were.....And I am not really bashing Casey, as he is taking better advantage of what he has got NOW compared to folks like Rossi and all the rest, but for me the one thrill and interst of Motogp, was the fact that rider skill was still paramount over just point and shoot driving like F1 has become and still is [partial TC still exists, via engine mapping---have you not noticed how F1 cars when they start, do not leave behind black marks and smoke...well by careful maps (and the drivers have a number of maps to chose depending on tracks and conditions) the engine does not have the ability to suddenly free rev as it did 20 years or 30 years ago]

maxu05

13th July 2008, 22:36

Perhaps you can give Marco some tips, and get him up to speed :)

patnicholls

13th July 2008, 22:44

The difference is that Rossi and crew were all riding before TC became such a miracle (and if Matt and all the rest of the wildcard riders at Seca last year were to be beleived, it is something of a miracle), and when that was true, Casey was a crashing all the time...must have been the tires,?? Yeah right.

Matt who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_motorcycle_Grand_Prix

There was only one wildcard in at Laguna last year, Roger Lee Hayden. (AMA regulars Chaz Davies and Miguel DuHamel appeared as replacements, Chaz having mechanical trouble and Miguel pulling in with what was best described as 'severe embarrassment at being so slow').

----

To an extent, the point that Casey can't be compared with Rossi, Ago, Hailwood, Mick, etc is correct - but that's obviously got to be true as Casey is only 22 years old and has only two-and-a-half seasons' experience in the top class. That question will be answered when Casey's thirty, 35, at the end of his career.

His much-maligned debut season in 2006 was to most people's eyes bloody good - hence why he got the Ducati seat in the first place. He did have a fair few crashes, but was getting top sixes and better when he finished on probably the least-supported Honda squad in a one-rider team in his debut season - a ride which the two experienced incumbents since have failed to do anything at all with (Checa and de Puniet).

The point about traction control is almost irrelevent in terms of discussing his talent - just as in F1, whether you like it or not, racing precedes technology for the road so in one way or another electronic engine control will be in all racing engines in one form or another and has been for some time. If it seems that it arrived as a 'miracle' in 2007, you could look at it the other way and say that Ducati made a massive positive leap that none of the other factories have managed yet, which isn't Ducati's or Casey's fault. The other point is that traction control isn't a magic wand - it might stop you crashing but it won't make you fast (see Melandri, M., Ducati 2008 for details). Sylvain Guintoli took 6th today - the second-best result of his career - and said he switched the traction control off to do it. Fonsi Nieto said the same after taking his first Superbike win in Qatar in February (in the dry). It's a bit more complex than saying that it'll just let you wind the power on as much as you want and it'll save you, as far as I can see. Alex de Angelis is known for having the most on/off throttle control of any rider in GPs, and he's generally not been at the front so far (although admittedly it is his debut year).

Personally, I think Casey's very good indeed. Rossi-good? Wait and see, but potentially he could be.

maxu05

13th July 2008, 22:52

Agree with what you say Pat. Casey is not the next Rossi or Doohan, he is CASEY.

markabilly

14th July 2008, 03:22

[quote="patnicholls"]Matt who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_motorcycle_Grand_Prix

There was only one wildcard in at Laguna last year, Roger Lee Hayden. (AMA regulars Chaz Davies and Miguel DuHamel appeared as replacements, Chaz having mechanical trouble and Miguel pulling in with what was best described as 'severe embarrassment at being so slow').

----

To an extent, the point that Casey can't be compared with Rossi, Ago, Hailwood, Mick, etc is correct - but that's obviously got to be true as Casey is only 22 years old and has only two-and-a-half seasons' experience in the top class. That question will be answered when Casey's thirty, 35, at the end of his career.

His much-maligned debut season in 2006 was to most people's eyes bloody good - hence why he got the Ducati seat in the first place. He did have a fair few crashes, but was getting top sixes and better when he finished on probably the least-supported Honda squad in a one-rider team in his debut season - a ride which the two experienced incumbents since have failed to do anything at all with (Checa and de Puniet).

The point about traction control is almost irrelevent in terms of discussing his talent - just as in F1, whether you like it or not, racing precedes technology for the road so in one way or another electronic engine control will be in all racing engines in one form or another and has been for some time. If it seems that it arrived as a 'miracle' in 2007, you could look at it the other way and say that Ducati made a massive positive leap that none of the other factories have managed yet, which isn't Ducati's or Casey's fault.

quote]

well excuse me, replacement, wild card, or whatever....geez, get real dude, and get off the hero worship wagon

The comment of Miguel and even matt (who practiced and diid not race), and Hayden expressed well their amazement at the incredible level of TC--I found it surprizing-indeed shocking-- to watch a rider collide in the middle of a corner, SHUT OFF the throttle, yet the bike continued to motor on, running over and breaking his foot or ankle or whatever, until it ended up piled up, in front of me at Seca last year. More than enuff to demo that electronics has taken over.

some will do well with the tc no doubt.

Casey has demonstrated he is one of those who has adopted to TC, but simple fact is, if not for that, against those guys who rode before TC became what it is today, if casey had run against them back then (and he DID!!well duh :s pin: ) , Casey would have remained an also-ran, setting records for busting his windshield as he crashed out----

Please mention not his name in the same breath as those champions of before, and that list includes Rossi.

There should be an astirk put by the names of such future winners as Casey "rode in the day of TC"

But as the scrawy runt that he is, he does have a weight advantage that other riders will be hard pressed to match :D and no doubt will win many championships..... :dozey:

big deal

markabilly

14th July 2008, 03:25

Matt who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_motorcycle_Grand_Prix

There was only one wildcard in at Laguna last year, Roger Lee Hayden. (AMA regulars Chaz Davies and Miguel DuHamel appeared as replacements, Chaz having mechanical trouble and Miguel pulling in with what was best described as 'severe embarrassment at being so slow').

----

To an extent, the point that Casey can't be compared with Rossi, Ago, Hailwood, Mick, etc is correct - but that's obviously got to be true as Casey is only 22 years old and has only two-and-a-half seasons' experience in the top class. That question will be answered when Casey's thirty, 35, at the end of his career.

The point about traction control is almost irrelevent in terms of discussing his talent - just as in F1, whether you like it or not, racing precedes technology for the road so in one way or another electronic engine control will be in all racing engines in one form or another and has been for some time. The other point is that traction control isn't a magic wand - it might stop you crashing but it won't make you fast (see Melandri, M., Ducati 2008 for details).

Personally, I think Casey's very good indeed. Rossi-good? Wait and see, but potentially he could be.

well excuse me, replacement, wild card, or whatever....geez, get real dude, and get off the hero worship wagon

The comment of Miguel and even matt (who practiced and diid not race), and Hayden expressed well their amazement at the incredible level of TC--I found it surprizing-indeed shocking-- to watch a rider collide in the middle of a corner, SHUT OFF the throttle, yet the bike continued to motor on, running over and breaking his foot or ankle or whatever, until it ended up piled up, in front of me at Seca last year. More than enuff to demo that electronics has taken over.

But what do I know, since i only raced and watched while Edwards and the Haydens did their first road races.....years ago at a place called Oak Hill, same as Freddie S.

some will do well with the tc no doubt.

Casey has demonstrated he is one of those who has adopted to TC, but simple fact is, if not for that, against those guys who rode before TC became what it is today, if casey had run against them back then (and he DID!!well duh :s pin: ) , Casey would have remained an also-ran, setting records for busting his windshield as he crashed out----

Please mention not his name in the same breath as those champions of before, and that list includes Rossi.

There should be an astirk put by the names of such future winners as Casey "rode in the day of TC"

But as the scrawy runt that he is, he does have a weight advantage that other riders will be hard pressed to match :D and no doubt will win many championships..... :dozey:

big deal

ShiftingGears

14th July 2008, 03:33

well excuse me, replacement, wild card, or whatever....geez, get real dude, and get off the hero worship wagon

The comment of Miguel and even matt (who practiced and diid not race), and Hayden expressed well their amazement at the incredible level of TC--I found it surprizing-indeed shocking-- to watch a rider collide in the middle of a corner, SHUT OFF the throttle, yet the bike continued to motor on, running over and breaking his foot or ankle or whatever, until it ended up piled up, in front of me at Seca last year. More than enuff to demo that electronics has taken over.

some will do well with the tc no doubt.

Casey has demonstrated he is one of those who has adopted to TC, but simple fact is, if not for that, against those guys who rode before TC became what it is today, if casey had run against them back then (and he DID!!well duh :s pin: ) , Casey would have remained an also-ran, setting records for busting his windshield as he crashed out----

Please mention not his name in the same breath as those champions of before, and that list includes Rossi.

There should be an astirk put by the names of such future winners as Casey "rode in the day of TC"

But as the scrawy runt that he is, he does have a weight advantage that other riders will be hard pressed to match :D and no doubt will win many championships..... :dozey:

big deal

What he did in 2006 was do what is expected of a rookie with potential and that's to go flat out and find the limit of the bike. And he was quick - nearly won Turkey in that privateer bike.

In comparison, he was flawless in '07. A clear sign he matured as a rider. He surprised me very much in 2007 with his consistency.

I think you'll find that, as with F1, when the traction control is taken away, the best drivers/riders with TC are also the best drivers/riders without TC, because they know how to extract the maximum out of their machinery.

Having said that, TC has no place in premier classes of motorsport.

markabilly

14th July 2008, 03:47

Having said that, TC has no place in premier classes of motorsport.
On that i agree very very much, for both F1 and Motogp....sad though even under the current regs, the electornics have gotten so good that F1 still has a form of traction control with engine mapping....

T-D

14th July 2008, 03:59

well excuse me, replacement, wild card, or whatever....geez, get real dude, and get off the hero worship wagon

The comment of Miguel and even matt (who practiced and diid not race), and Hayden expressed well their amazement at the incredible level of TC--I found it surprizing-indeed shocking-- to watch a rider collide in the middle of a corner, SHUT OFF the throttle, yet the bike continued to motor on, running over and breaking his foot or ankle or whatever, until it ended up piled up, in front of me at Seca last year. More than enuff to demo that electronics has taken over.

But what do I know, since i only raced and watched while Edwards and the Haydens did their first road races.....years ago at a place called Oak Hill, same as Freddie S.

some will do well with the tc no doubt.

Casey has demonstrated he is one of those who has adopted to TC, but simple fact is, if not for that, against those guys who rode before TC became what it is today, if casey had run against them back then (and he DID!!well duh :s pin: ) , Casey would have remained an also-ran, setting records for busting his windshield as he crashed out----

Please mention not his name in the same breath as those champions of before, and that list includes Rossi.

There should be an astirk put by the names of such future winners as Casey "rode in the day of TC"

But as the scrawy runt that he is, he does have a weight advantage that other riders will be hard pressed to match :D and no doubt will win many championships..... :dozey:

big dealyou throw a lot of stuff against the wall, and not much of it sticks. rossi won 5 motogp championships in the tc era with the best equipment. put an asterisk there. casey weighs about the median for riders in motogp. probably half are above him and half are below him.

his performance without tc is mere speculation. you have no basis for your opinion other than your feelings and biases toward casey and rossi, whom i suspect you love and worship.

gco0307

14th July 2008, 04:05

to watch a rider collide in the middle of a corner, SHUT OFF the throttle, yet the bike continued to motor on, running over and breaking his foot or ankle or whatever, until it ended up piled up, in front of me at Seca last year. More than enuff to demo that electronics has taken over.

So, are you saying by the above statement that the despite the throttle having been shut off (which you could see), the bike continued on running over a rider and breaking his foot/ankle?

Would this have been the Melandri crash?

Now, I am being pedantic definitely but there is such a thing as momentum that will cause the motorcycle to continue even though the throttle has been shut, the engine cut or any other number of variations to the 'shut off' them. As you purport to have raced this would be nothing that you are not familiar with so I am surprised that you seem to indicate that it was caused by TC and TC alone.

But what do I know, since i only raced and watched while Edwards and the Haydens did their first road races.....years ago at a place called Oak Hill, same as Freddie S.

Congratulations.

I am sure that such events must be great days to recall where you are fortunate to be able to look back and know that you were there for those days.

some will do well with the tc no doubt.

Definitely, but just because a riders does wel with TC does not mean that they cannot do well without TC (and vice versa).

Casey has demonstrated he is one of those who has adopted to TC, but simple fact is, if not for that, against those guys who rode before TC became what it is today, if casey had run against them back then (and he DID!!well duh :s pin: ) , Casey would have remained an also-ran, setting records for busting his windshield as he crashed out----

Just for interest, when is this pre-TC time to which you refer?

I ask as TC is not new to the 800's and was readily available on the 990's but given that CS did not ridet he 500cc era one cannot say how he would have gone as it is pure fantasy.

There does appear to be a distinct belief that the 800 era saw in the start or impacts of TC but one can be assured that TC in various guises has been around well beforet he 800 era.]

Please mention not his name in the same breath as those champions of before, and that list includes Rossi.

Agreed.

He is not yet in a class to be mentioned in the same breath as those that I consider true greats of the sport (Doohan, Rainey, Lawson, Spencer etc)

There should be an astirk put by the names of such future winners as Casey "rode in the day of TC"

Given that TC has been with us throughout the 990 era as well, doest he same apply for VR's championships won in that era?

A championship is a championship and technology exists now that did not five short years ago and so on. Each era of race has benefitted from advanced technology that was not available to those of the eras previously (Carbon vs Steel brakes, Disk vs Drum breaks etc), does it lessen the achievements of those riders. Hell no, they are real racers and champions of their own.

But as the scrawy runt that he is, he does have a weight advantage that other riders will be hard pressed to match :D and no doubt will win many championships..... :dozey:

Funnily enough he is not the lightest of the racers, nor the smallest but that is the way the sport is headed.

Garry

DezinerPaul

14th July 2008, 05:17

gco0307

14th July 2008, 05:39

Well there is one way that Stoner excels, luck ! Dani P was in another class, before he went down he was pulling 2 secs a lap. Dani P will win the title this year, he is many times the rider of Stoner, no contest!

Realise that this is a fishing exercise but how is CS lucky?

DP crashed out, a few races ago CS had a mechanical no points result and Assen VR crashed, remounted and got points.

Throughout a year each rider will have what some see as 'good luck' and will have their share of what is seen as 'bad luck'. By the end of the year each rider will likely have had their fair share and it will be even.

But, there will always be cases where rider errors cause issue and these are neither good luck or bad luck, but simple stuff ups.

As for DP being the superior rider of the two, it is a matter of opinion and likely to be a debate that will rage for a while but will not just be restriected to these two riders (will include Lorenzo, Dovi etc).

Now, if you look at points earnt in the premier class CS clearly has DP's measure by 25 points (were equal before Germany), although IMO that does show little. But along with that little stat, CS has more premier class wins, more premier class poles, I believe he has more laps led, but still he does not get the credit he deserves thoughout the forums of the world.

Bet he doesn't care.

Garry

14th July 2008, 06:10

Well there is one way that Stoner excels, luck ! Dani P was in another class, before he went down he was pulling 2 secs a lap. Dani P will win the title this year, he is many times the rider of Stoner, no contest!

Luck has nothing to do with it. Both Stoner and Rossi were riding within their limits and those of their bikes having regard to the prevailing conditions.

Pedrosa was not and down he went.... So yes, I suppose you could say he was in another class before he went down......The class taking a crash course in DNF.

Don't get me wrong, all three of them are great riders and no doubt the best in Moto GP at present. Pedrosa just over-cooked it on this occasion by pushing too hard at that stage of the race while Stoner and Rossi rode sensibly but still on the ragged edge.

F1boat

14th July 2008, 07:48

ChrisS

14th July 2008, 07:48

Just for interest, when is this pre-TC time to which you refer?

I ask as TC is not new to the 800's and was readily available on the 990's but given that CS did not ridet he 500cc era one cannot say how he would have gone as it is pure fantasy.

There does appear to be a distinct belief that the 800 era saw in the start or impacts of TC but one can be assured that TC in various guises has been around well beforet he 800 era.]

Without questioning Stoner's talent as he is clearly a talented rider, he was able to find nearly 1sec after Ducati sorted out the GP8 electronics. I think its undeniable that electronics are a greater factor in the 800cc MotoGP than ever before. Not just TC but all electronics

gco0307

14th July 2008, 08:57

Without questioning Stoner's talent as he is clearly a talented rider, he was able to find nearly 1sec after Ducati sorted out the GP8 electronics. I think its undeniable that electronics are a greater factor in the 800cc MotoGP than ever before. Not just TC but all electronics

Absolutely agree.

Whilst I do not think that the alleged 1 second per lap is totally the result of 'upgraded software' no doubt it plays a part in allowing the full package to achieve the improvement.

A question though.

I have often seen this 1 second per lap quoted and in many different contexts (ie. comparing Barcelona times race/Monday test, Donnington 07 v 08 etc), where does it come from?

The shame of the current situation appears to be that because CS is not the gregarious media 'darling' of a Rossi together with the fact that he is beating someone so readily admired in VR, many people do not like him (go figure?). Unfortunately CS also happens to be around when rule changes (800cc, Fuel limit) have had a greater impact than was likely anticipated by anyone. Now, because the impacts of these changes have really bought Ducati to the fore, many are questioning whether it be CS, the Ducati, Magnetti Marelli or a combination that ist he real champion.

Whilst questioning they overlook that this category is about development and technology and that many champions (some regarded as legends) have profitted from this technology, but these champions are not questioned.

Stoner is an incredible talent and I now look back at something I was told by a person with whom I work race meets a few years ago before CS was in MotoGP (was in the lower classes). He simply said that he has seen many talents come and go across the 40 years he has been involved in the Australian racing scene but he has never seen anyone like Stoner. He rated him the complete package and easily the best Australian rider he had ever seen.

Considering that this person has worked as a paid FiM official worldwide over the last 25 or so years, I take his word highly. When I last spoke with him earlier this year and we spoke of CS, he simply smiled and said 'wait until he really learns to ride a bike, then you will see.

Personally I do not rate CS as highly yet, but then my experience is far less than this guy and when you have been around, seen it and done it, I trust his judgement.

Garry

leopard

14th July 2008, 10:01

It is not luck that Dani made a crucial mistake. To fiinish first, first you have to finish.
And Pedrosa didn't.

In wet races every single mistake costs dear, how smooth the riders open the throttle and brake will determine them to finish the race.

It might not have relationship with luck, no hares were around. :)

ShiftingGears

14th July 2008, 10:24

Dani P was in another class

Yeah!

The non-finishers class!

DezinerPaul

14th July 2008, 10:53

Yeah!

The non-finishers class!

We will see at seasons end, Stoner will have no excuses! He will NOT take the title this year!

markabilly

14th July 2008, 11:19

So, are you saying by the above statement that the despite the throttle having been shut off (which you could see), the bike continued on running over a rider and breaking his foot/ankle?

Would this have been the Melandri crash?

Now, I am being pedantic definitely but there is such a thing as momentum that will cause the motorcycle to continue even though the throttle has been shut, the engine cut or any other number of variations to the 'shut off' them. As you purport to have raced this would be nothing that you are not familiar with so I am surprised that you seem to indicate that it was caused by TC and TC alone.

Just for interest, when is this pre-TC time to which you refer?

I ask as TC is not new to the 800's and was readily available on the 990's but given that CS did not ridet he 500cc era one cannot say how he would have gone as it is pure fantasy.

There does appear to be a distinct belief that the 800 era saw in the start or impacts of TC but one can be assured that TC in various guises has been around well beforet he 800 era.]

Agreed.

He is not yet in a class to be mentioned in the same breath as those that I consider true greats of the sport (Doohan, Rainey, Lawson, Spencer etc)

Funnily enough he is not the lightest of the racers, nor the smallest but that is the way the sport is headed.

Garry
When the engine keeps going, when the rider has shut the throttle on the handlebar, apparently due to programming designed to prevent highsides, that says it all. The 990 bikes never had real TC, nothing like today

I do not blindly worship any of them, and never cared much for Rossi the person, but my suspicion is that the runt riders will dominate now, esp with all the absolutely fantastic TC of today, and right now, Stoner appears to be the best of the lot 9and for many, they are thrilled he is a aussie, next best thing to being a Brit)

F1boat

14th July 2008, 11:19

We will see at seasons end, Stoner will have no excuses! He will NOT take the title this year!

We will see, Paul.
We will see ;)

DezinerPaul

14th July 2008, 11:26

Indeed we will, my guess Stoner 3rd

gco0307

14th July 2008, 11:40

When the engine keeps going, when the rider has shut the throttle on the handlebar, apparently due to programming designed to prevent highsides, that says it all. The 990 bikes never had real TC, nothing like today

Did see an article that partly supports what you are saying but did details that there are a number of parameters that are fed to the electronics not just the throttle being closed. The article was specifically aimed at cornering and not closing throttle when teh bike was upright (or near to) but there was mention made of minimal electronic involvement under some circumstances.

As for 990 I suspect that they had near the same TC/electronics system and as advanced, just that the impact was less.

I personally have a problem where people are blaming the TC/electronic era for causing the alleged 'boring' racing and leading people to question whether the sport can survive. IMO, the issue is more the 800 capacity and furl restriction which results in the electronics mapping fuel usage and therefore burn, resulting in the leaning off and subsequent 'diminished' power output. If the bikes could run a few more litres of fuel and remove that component we will see riders being able to push to the limit all the time and have all the power necessary to make the required challenges.

I do not blindly worship any of them, and never cared much for Rossi the person, but my suspicion is that the runt riders will dominate now, esp with all the absolutely fantastic TC of today, and right now, Stoner appears to be the best of the lot (and for many, they are thrilled he is a aussie, next best thing to being a Brit)

Whether CS is the best of the lot I am sure that DezinerPaul and others may argue, but is it a fault of his that he is in that position?

Whilst many will disagree, IMO CS did extremely well in his lone year (his rookie year) on the 990 Honda customer bike. He had a pole position, a second place and yes a number of crashes, which is quite 'standard fair' in a rookie season. He was not the 'star rookie' as that fell to Dani Pedrosa and as has been reported in numerous places, CS did ruffle many feathers with his results. IMO, his rookie year was very damn good and it was on the 990.

Unfortunately for him, he just seems to the rider who has, along with his team acclimatised most to the rule changes (well, up to this point anyway).

Garry

markabilly

14th July 2008, 12:07

Did see an article that partly supports what you are saying but did details that there are a number of parameters that are fed to the electronics not just the throttle being closed. The article was specifically aimed at cornering and not closing throttle when teh bike was upright (or near to) but there was mention made of minimal electronic involvement under some circumstances.

As for 990 I suspect that they had near the same TC/electronics system and as advanced, just that the impact was less.

I).

Garry

TC has gone way beyond in 2007--the wildcard/replacement riders were stunned last year at the difference between 06 and 07, even Rossi has admitted tha he has had trouble adopting and being competitve, and these were suzuki and Kawasaki bikes, not the appearant cream such as Ducati, that the wildard/replacement guys were on

DezinerPaul

14th July 2008, 12:21

maxu05

14th July 2008, 12:23

Well there is one way that Stoner excels, luck ! Dani P was in another class, before he went down he was pulling 2 secs a lap. Dani P will win the title this year, he is many times the rider of Stoner, no contest!

Yes, I agree, Dani was in another class, 'Crash class' . Stoner has a lot of work to do to catch up, if only he had your support, he would win a race or two, wait a minute, he is winning :s hock: WOW, 3 in a row. Who's a lucky monkey then.

DezinerPaul

14th July 2008, 12:42

Yes, I agree, Dani was in another class, 'Crash class' . Stoner has a lot of work to do to catch up, if only he had your support, he would win a race or two, wait a minute, he is winning :s hock: WOW, 3 in a row. Who's a lucky monkey then.

well lets hope the Olympics are a flop, just for you!

maxu05

14th July 2008, 12:45

What a lovely chap :)

osg

14th July 2008, 13:43

For my money, he is a very lucky guy, right time and right bike!
Just being honest, I do not think he is some great talent, I do feel he has a fantastic bike. Now I know Webber fans, sorry I mean the Stoner fans will rant and rave, but the guy was just another rider without that bike!

So.....your thoughts on why Pedrosa does not have a MotoGP World Title to his name even though he has been on top flite equipment since entering the class????

Even Hayden has a MotoGP World Title..........

so.............

T-D

14th July 2008, 13:44

ducati did not come to the fore in 2007. the 2006 ducati was a championship contender. many believe that loris would have won ducati's first championship but for the horrible crash in barcelona.

the software change responsible for the improved lap times was the engine mapping that allowed the bike to get better drive out of the corners. casey has confirmed this in several articles, just search autosport and you will find several articles confirming this. in response, i say: "so what". in the age of electronics, (not just 800 cc), this is how many--not all--technical improvements are made. the rider communicates the weakness to the engineers, who attempt to fix it given the available resources. would it be more satisfactory if the improvement were mechanical, say an imoroved shock or swingarm?

DezinerPaul

14th July 2008, 15:17

So.....your thoughts on why Pedrosa does not have a MotoGP World Title to his name even though he has been on top flite equipment since entering the class????

Even Hayden has a MotoGP World Title..........

so.............

You mean those three World Champions mean nothing?

Ranger

14th July 2008, 15:34

You mean those three World Champions mean nothing?
One world championship doesn't mean much to a certain Italian Ducati rider right now. ;)

EDIT: The inherent point here is that minor GP titles, all in all, mean diddly squat when evaluating someone's premier-class MotoGP career.

DezinerPaul

14th July 2008, 17:51

One world championship doesn't mean much to a certain Italian Ducati rider right now. ;)

EDIT: The inherent point here is that minor GP titles, all in all, mean diddly squat when evaluating someone's premier-class MotoGP career.

That is the biggest bunch of cr*p I have ever heard. My guess is that you have that view because Stone was never worth diddly squat, in those classes.

osg

14th July 2008, 21:09

You mean those three World Champions mean nothing?

answer the question:

Why has Dani Pedrosa failed to win a MotoGP World Title in the top class???

Corny

14th July 2008, 21:18

In 2006? Because he sucked in rain

In 2007? Because that Honda was such a useless machine

In 2008? Because he's not able to overtake ;)

I think he is doing an absolute amazing job this year, I don't think that Honda is up to the yamaha or ducati, and still he's very very close.. Also the bridgestones are slightly better at the moment and still he remains close

The Phantom

15th July 2008, 18:00

Randy Mamola - an outspoken critic of TC - commented recently that Stoner actually uses less TC than any other rider.

Strange indeed to say that Stoner relied on luck to win in Germany - any mug punter could see that Pedrosa was riding too hard for the conditions. He is improving as a wet rider, but when the good wet riders can't stay with the novice wet rider, it can only end in tears. I fully expected him to crash and sure enough he obliged (my wife asked 'what is so funny?' from the study about six laps into the race - not saying that his injuries are funny mind you, just the event itself).

Pedrosa will be lucky to take one MotoGP title while Stoner is racing. Rossi is the only guy out there who can stop Stoner this year. Next year I'd expect Lorenzo, Rossi and Stoner to be the top three; Pedrosa is the Criville of the era.

ChrisS

15th July 2008, 18:10

DezinerPaul

15th July 2008, 18:13

Corny

15th July 2008, 19:06

Dani is probably the best rider indeed this year, but purely on riding laps. He could've scored so much more points if he was a master in overtaking (like Rossi)

The Phantom

15th July 2008, 19:29

What's with all the Pedrosa bashing? He isn't the most liked rider but he is talented non the less

He was in a league above the rest last Sunday. He wasnt trying to get more out of the bike when it wasnt possible, he isnt an idiot, he was riding on a pace he was comfortable and he was much faster than the rest but he made a mistake and he paid for it.

Pedrosa is a great rider. Just not the complete package that Stoner and Rossi are - although he is always improving. But then again, so are they. And then there's Lorenzo, who seems to be a bit special too, it's a shame he's had so many injuries this year otherwise he may have lifted the title himself.

The mistake Pedrosa made on Sunday was to cross the fine line between talent and luck. The chasing pack seemed to be more cogniscient of the fact that points for placings are a better bet than zero points in a chase for glory...

T-D

15th July 2008, 20:05

osg

15th July 2008, 21:18

ChrisS

15th July 2008, 23:26

........still waiting for you to answer my question.....

Why has Dani not won a premier class title yet Deziner?

Thats a silly question to be honest. He only raced for 2 full seasons so far. You wont find many riders that won the 500/MotoGP title in just 2 seasons. Doohan didnt win until his 6th season, and then he won 5 of them

fatman

16th July 2008, 00:19

Wow, it's the Stoner Fanboys VS the Dani Fanboys. Let's get the West Fanboys in here and really get the thread rocking.

The Phantom

16th July 2008, 01:05

Thats a silly question to be honest. He only raced for 2 full seasons so far. You wont find many riders that won the 500/MotoGP title in just 2 seasons.

I think there are only two - Stoner and Rossi - so it is certainly possible...

Lorenzo was on his way to doing it in his rookie season.

Pedrosa just hasn't shown that he has what it takes, he may get there but not until Stoner is off the scene.

Ranger

16th July 2008, 02:05

That is the biggest bunch of cr*p I have ever heard. My guess is that you have that view because Stone was never worth diddly squat, in those classes.

I'm not sure about you, but I'd take a single premier class title over three 125cc and 250cc titles any day.

16th July 2008, 02:38

I don't believe anyone doubts that Pedrosa has talent and I hope he learns from his "mistake" which cost him dearly last Sunday and which may result in him either not riding or being affected accordingly at Laguna Seca and dropping even more championship points.

I see his "mistake" as simply trying too hard and over-stepping the limits in the prevailing conditions on this occasion. It can and will happen to the best of them at some stage.

You won't know what the limit is in most case until you exceed it.

DezinerPaul

16th July 2008, 07:13

I'm not sure about you, but I'd take a single premier class title over three 125cc and 250cc titles any day.

You mean the titles he was bust winning, while Stoner was an also ran?

The Phantom

16th July 2008, 11:32

You mean the titles he was bust winning, while Stoner was an also ran?

It's virtually been said in this topic already, but you're not much of a reader are you. I'll write it anyway, as there are plenty of intelligent contributors here to discuss this stuff with, and you'll be gone - again, but permanently this time - before long.

Pedrosa was on the top equipment in 125/250 and Stoner was on a customer bike. Stoner still managed to push Pedrosa all the way to the title.

They both go to MotoGP, same thing - top level bike for Pedrosa, customer bike for Stoner. Similar outcome except in MotoGP Pedrosa was suddenly not the top dog - he was doing a little better than Stoner, when he should have been trouncing him.

One year later and both are on factory bikes. Which one took the title? And which one is ahead in all but points this year.

Rossi rates Stoner as his most fearsome rival to date, which for me says all that needs to be said.

gco0307

16th July 2008, 11:33

The Webber/Stoner brigade are out in full force. This year Dani P is the class of the field. Stoner is just not that good, history tells us that, he is just a lucky kid on a dominant bike, end of!

I personally disagree with your assertion that DP is the 'class of the field' as you say, but readily recognise that it is an opinion to which you are fully entitled. IMO, at this stage there is no true 'class of the field' as the championship is to clase, nor has any one rider dominated the season to date .

At this stage of the championship Dani is not the 'class of the field' as you suggest as (and correct me if I am wrong) he is currently second in the title chase. ergo, he is currently the second best rider in the field (and yes, that does make Stoner the third best rider at this point in the year.

As for CS being a lucky kid on a dominant bike the current manufacturer points tell a totally different story (one that correlates with the Riders championship actually). Currently, Yamaha lead the manufacturers championship with 216 points, followed by Honda (184), Ducati (172), Suzuki (96) and Kawasaki (47). If this is a guide (and it is a good guide) it would indicate that the Ducati is the third best bike in the field by manufacturer.

As for the Teams championship it again follows the previous two situations with the Fiat Yamaha team on 301, followed by Repsol Honda on 244, Ducati Marlboro on 199, Tech 3 Yamaha on 163, Rizla Suzuki on 135, Honda Gresini 102, JIR Scot Honda 90, Alice Ducati 71, Kawasaki 54 and Honda LCR on 30.

The above may mean nothing to some people who are blined either way (be it Ross, Stoner, Pedrosa etc), but they are the current championship standings which are a fact.

Garry

gco0307

16th July 2008, 11:36

Rossi rates Stoner as his most fearsome rival to date, which for me says all that needs to be said.

Read that in an article and saw VR say it himself in an interview which just makes me wonder if now he is on equal tyres etc, he has greatly adjusted his opinion of CS as VR did not seem that 'concerned' with CS last year.

Garry

The Phantom

16th July 2008, 11:45

DezinerPaul

16th July 2008, 11:48

Rossi will say anything to please. At the end of the day, the winner this year will say it all. My money is on Dani P and it is safe!

jim mcglinchey

16th July 2008, 12:22

Heres why I think that Casey is a better rider than Dani. If you were a rider and you were to have one crack at the Moto GP world championship you would still pick the factory Honda team with its money and backing, and its winning heritage going back to Doohan. Lately there have been a few glitches but even Nicky managed the win because he was the No 1 HONDA RIDER, and now Dani's in that position but he cant capitalise on the privilege.

Low on your list two years ago would ve been the Ducati, but Stoner made that switch and the rest is history. Thats why he gets my respect.

osg

16th July 2008, 12:41

Rossi will say anything to please. At the end of the day, the winner this year will say it all. My money is on Dani P and it is safe!

Considering he's less than 50% chance to ride at Laguna Seca and could very well end up 30+ points down on Valentino post Laguna Seca...... your confidence might be misplaced.

For what it's worth, you won't see Dani battling for the podium whilst riding injured like Jorge..... he's not that tough.

Heres why I think that Casey is a better rider than Dani. If you were a rider and you were to have one crack at the Moto GP world championship you would still pick the factory Honda team with its money and backing, and its winning heritage going back to Doohan. Lately there have been a few glitches but even Nicky managed the win because he was the No 1 HONDA RIDER, and now Dani's in that position but he cant capitalise on the privilege.

Low on your list two years ago would ve been the Ducati, but Stoner made that switch and the rest is history. Thats why he gets my respect.

+1 Jim... well said. Add to that for me he's an Aussie also....... My admiration and respect remains with Valentino, but i have a spot for Casey there also.

maxu05

16th July 2008, 12:55

Good post Garry.

I forgot to add - DezinerPaul is here merely to troll, his MO seems to be to start a topic bagging a rider then add fuel to the fire as he goes along - see the F1 forum for examples. He posts in no other topics. He's already had a two week ban despite having only been here since June.

I won't bother responding to any of his trolling in future.

I agree 100% No response is the best response. The virus will go away soon I hope.

MrJan

16th July 2008, 13:32

Wow, it's the Stoner Fanboys VS the Dani Fanboys. Let's get the West Fanboys in here and really get the thread rocking.

I'm a MotoGP fanboy :D Which is why I can see that both Dani and Casey are amazing but still believe that Rossi will win this season. Oh, and Westy is the grid's biggest underacheiver after Melandri :cheese: ;) :p :

NinjaMaster

16th July 2008, 14:21

This board is widely regarded for it's level headedness but it seems that some of the opinions in this thread are so unbalanced that any sense fell out of them!

Firstly, to suggest that Stoner is nothing more than an also-ran rider is absurd and plain ignorant. He was also fast, even in the tiddler classes but crashed too much. He doesn't crash much now and the speed is converting into consistent wins. And for people's arguments about him crashing earlier in his career, he was friggin young and over-exuberant for crying out loud! He's not a 15 year crash-his-brains-out veteran like Checa was. He could be compared to the all time greats of racing if he manages to win 4 or 5 championships, especially considering the depth of talent he is up against. At the end of the day, you can only beat the opposition available to you at the time on the equipment you have to ride.

Also, the criticism of Pedrosa has also been over harsh I think. He's a supremely talented rider who is already a multi world champion. The only question mark I have over him is whether or not he is a balls-out racer or more of an insanely fast rider. I've had the same query of Troy Corser earlier in his career who is very fast but doesn't seem to really like a handlebar to handlebar fight.

Lorenzo is clearly a sensational talent but the same criticism that has been leveled at Stoner for his title win last year, that he had the best bike, can equally be pointed at Jorge who clearly had a significant machinery advantage over Dovizioso the past 2 years. It was/is also apparent that the Yamaha was clearly the best bike to start this year. Also, ask him if TC means you can just crack the throttle in a ham fisted manner to win races in MotoGP.

As I've said previously, all of Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Dovizioso are amazing talents who will fight it out for the title (possibly along with Melandri) for likely the next 10 years (for Rossi, til he retires). We are very lucky to witness such talent and I'm certain all those names will be revered by the end of their careers. :up:

DezinerPaul

16th July 2008, 19:40

Good post Garry.

I forgot to add - DezinerPaul is here merely to troll, his MO seems to be to start a topic bagging a rider then add fuel to the fire as he goes along - see the F1 forum for examples. He posts in no other topics. He's already had a two week ban despite having only been here since June.

I won't bother responding to any of his trolling in future.

Get your facts straight, it was three days. As for what topics I post in, my posts are in the subjects that I follow. Talk about me trolling, yet all you and the rest of the Webber /Stoner brigade is stroke each other!

MrJan

16th July 2008, 23:49

Get your facts straight, it was three days. As for what topics I post in, my posts are in the subjects that I follow. Talk about me trolling, yet all you and the rest of the Webber /Stoner brigade is stroke each other!

To moat people it just seems that you like to make outrageous statements about decent racers. Frinstance saying Stoner is just lucky. You cannot win a championship in anything by just being lucky, it takes skill and hard work. Yes he had a good bike but so did his team mate and so did the Honda boys.

I'm not really a Stoner or Webber fan but I can appreciate that both are very good at what they do, Stoner certainly has the potential to become something special. Besides the original post was more about what he'd have to do to be regarded as special, not whether we think he is now.

patnicholls

17th July 2008, 00:47

Get your facts straight, it was three days. As for what topics I post in, my posts are in the subjects that I follow. Talk about me trolling, yet all you and the rest of the Webber /Stoner brigade is stroke each other!

Disputing the 'facts' about the length of your (first) ban isn't the point of this thread, especially since that information isn't available to non-moderators. And if you were behaving yourself, you wouldn't be getting banned within just over two weeks of joining this forum.

YOU were also the one who brought Mark Webber into this thread TWICE before anyone else mentioned him. STICK TO THE TOPIC - this is a bike racing section of the forum.

leopard

17th July 2008, 08:39

As I've said previously, all of Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Dovizioso are amazing talents who will fight it out for the title (possibly along with Melandri) for likely the next 10 years (for Rossi, til he retires).
If we have to include Melandri, perhaps on a bike other than Ducati. :)

neninja

17th July 2008, 11:42

As has been said to suggest that Casey is only winning because of TC is a massive crock of sh*t

The top riders use almost no traction control at all during qualifying (including Casey). Yet Casey gets pole on a regular basis.

Traction control is more to do with tyre management during the race and also to allow the riders a margin of error during the race when they start to get tired.

Casey is a worthy champion and at the moment I wouldn't bet against him winning back to back titles. At moment he is part of the best package - an in-form rider who has confidence in his bike and tyres that all gel and deliver time after time.

He's still got alot to prove if he wants to be regarded as being in the same league as Rossi, Doohan, Hailwood, Agostini, Roberts (snr) but I see no reason why he can't end up ultimately being a multiple champion and up there with the best.

Casey's frequent crashes with the Honda have been discounted by other people on here - he was on 3rd rate tyres and couldn't get a front end set up that worked with them. In my opinion those crashes were nothing to do with poor throttle control as one poster has suggested as most of them were front end related. Even his team said that the data-logging could find no reason for most of the crashes - he'd go through a corner on less lean, less speed etc than a previous lap and the front would just let go.

Roby44

17th July 2008, 12:21

Wow, it's the Stoner Fanboys VS the Dani Fanboys. Let's get the West Fanboys in here and really get the thread rocking.

We aren't all boys on here!! :p But out of the three choices, Dani, Casey and Ant

I'm a West fanperson!! :D

Roby44

17th July 2008, 12:25

If we have to include Melandri, perhaps on a bike other than Ducati. :)

Marco was really a good rider in the 250 cc and his early days in MotoGP wasn't he?? or is it just me that thinks that.. Something must have happened to cause him to "go bad" on the bike.

Poggiali was good too but then he hit a bad patch,after the death of his father I think it was, and then retired. His comeback hasn't been all that flash though has it..

I guess the riders go through these bad patches like with any "job"

gco0307

17th July 2008, 12:46

Marco was really a good rider in the 250 cc and his early days in MotoGP wasn't he?? or is it just me that thinks that.. Something must have happened to cause him to "go bad" on the bike.

Melandri actually was pretty ordinary in his first two years in the top class which were spent on the Yamaha of the time.

MM's best years were on the Honda which interestingly enough was predicted by Rossi who allegedly 'suggested' that it would suit his style and that the Honda 'family' would better look after him (claimed to allude to MM's need for constant attention).

But, he did shine on a Honda and I would expect that he would need to return to Honda do any good.

Garry

leopard

17th July 2008, 12:54

Marco was really a good rider in the 250 cc and his early days in MotoGP wasn't he?? or is it just me that thinks that.. Something must have happened to cause him to "go bad" on the bike.

Poggiali was good too but then he hit a bad patch,after the death of his father I think it was, and then retired. His comeback hasn't been all that flash though has it..

I guess the riders go through these bad patches like with any "job"
This might be only your personal point of view, having job(s) I think somehow better than without job. :) ;)

btw, you maybe right Poggiali can't get rid of memory of his father altogether, and has contributed to his going-down-performance, I didn't hear the news before, thanks. :)

Roby44

17th July 2008, 22:20

Melandri actually was pretty ordinary in his first two years in the top class which were spent on the Yamaha of the time.

MM's best years were on the Honda which interestingly enough was predicted by Rossi who allegedly 'suggested' that it would suit his style and that the Honda 'family' would better look after him (claimed to allude to MM's need for constant attention).

But, he did shine on a Honda and I would expect that he would need to return to Honda do any good.

Garry

I had forgotten about Valentino "suggesting" that for Marco.... :o
I did like MM in 250cc though...

Roby44

17th July 2008, 22:22

This might be only your personal point of view, having job(s) I think somehow better than without job. :) ;)

There are days when I think I would really like to see what life is like without a job!! Some days my job really s**ks... :(

But it does pay the bills.. :rolleyes:

maxu05

18th July 2008, 04:25

There are days when I think I would really like to see what life is like without a job!! Some days my job really s**ks... :(

But it does pay the bills.. :rolleyes:

Join the club

leopard

18th July 2008, 06:28

I did like MM in 250cc though...

If you have replay of his 250cc season, you can watch it. :)

Roby44

18th July 2008, 09:31

If you have replay of his 250cc season, you can watch it. :)

Well it could be more interesting than some races this year have been.. :)

Roby44

18th July 2008, 09:32

Join the club

Yeah but you are moving on to perhaps "better" things.... :)

MrJan

18th July 2008, 10:06

Yeah but you are moving on to perhaps "better" things.... :)

Nah, once an Aussie, always an Aussie :p :

Ha, nice bit of casual racism while the moderator is away :D ;)

The Phantom

20th July 2008, 03:07

Laguna Seca - Stoner broke the lap record in first practice, then went under it in each subsequent practice - finally setting pole with a time 1.5 seconds under Haydens previous lap record.

He is now also the only other rider apart from Rossi to take 5 straight poles, and is on track for his fourth straight pole-to-win race.

Whingers and Aussie-bashers, form an orderly queue at the exit please - you're not going to enjoy the next few years of MotoGP :)

markabilly

20th July 2008, 03:58

alfa155btcc

22nd July 2008, 18:36

jim mcglinchey

22nd July 2008, 21:52

Nah, I couldnt see Dani dicing it with either of the others in that way.

Roby44

22nd July 2008, 23:02

Wait till Dovi gets a "good" Honda under him....

ChrisS

23rd July 2008, 00:59

Wait till Dovi gets a "good" Honda under him....

Rumours want Nakano getting a "good" Honda under him at Brno. A 3rd full factory RCV.

ShiftingGears

23rd July 2008, 05:45

Nah, I couldnt see Dani dicing it with either of the others in that way.

My thoughts exactly. I don't think I've seen a bold overtaking move from him since Portugal '06.

gco0307

23rd July 2008, 06:25

How good is Stoner well he and Rossi and when Pedrosa is finally fit then these 3 are by far the best in the world so far, but for me Rossi is probably the best there has ever been and until Stoner equals what Rossi has done then we can talk about how great he is or is`nt.
:s mokin:

Gotta say that I disagree with you on two fronts, the first being that we can readily discuss how great CS is or will be irrespective of his record now or when he retires. But, if one is to compare CS' greatness against VR, then he must produce VR like results and I do not see that comparison being made.

As for VR being the GoaT I have a different opinion (for another subject) but that is because of my personal preferences. In other forums I have opened myself up but I rate the likes of Doohan, Lawson, Rainey and Spencer but readily accept that VR is without doubt the GoaaT in the four stroke era.

That said, I do believe that CS has all that he needs to obtain greatness but doubt that we will see anyone win the number of championships of VR for many a year, specifically because I believe the competition is greater.

Garry

osg

26th July 2008, 01:14

Rumours want Nakano getting a "good" Honda under him at Brno. A 3rd full factory RCV.

which has been confirmed today....... http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/news/166782-0/nakano_to_get_factory_honda_at_brno.html

harsha

26th July 2008, 12:44

don't think Dani is in the same league as the Doctor and Stoner...

DezinerPaul

27th July 2008, 05:42

leopard

28th July 2008, 06:39

Yeah, but we need competitive season, not rider benefited from someone else trouble, by virtue of luckiness, or similar reason. Today on the Duke, Stoner has what it takes to handle pressures from Rossi, and otherwise he can give Rossi pressures.

I see him another version of Sete, perhaps Stoner is better in term of natural skill and adjustability riding a bike. Although already in doubt whether Sete can give us expectation for the more entertaining season like Stoner does, I trust him that he can manage a place not too far drifted behind his teammate. We need riders with strong mentality, probably like them.

Roby44

28th July 2008, 11:14

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/18july08_stoner.htm

DezinerPaul

28th July 2008, 13:26

gco0307

28th July 2008, 13:53

Lets be honest, Stoner has a brilliant bike, so dominant, nobody can get close. This is clearly the case of the bike making the rider, it is one special machine. Just how good is Stoner, lets see if Rossi has crawled inside his head, the way he did to Sete. Rhetoric means nothing, the answers about how good is Stoner are about to be anbswered, He has the best bike, there is nothing stopping from the title, except himself, we will see!

If he has, as you suggest the best bike, why is he not leading the championship?

What are Yamaha the leading manufacturer (in current manufacturers chase)?

Why are Fiat Yamaha the leading team?

Given that Ducati are not leading any of these categories it would indicate that they are not the best bike.

Additionally, both Yamaha and Ducati use Magnetti Marelli electronic systems. Given that Magnetti Marelli are owned by Fiat one could rightly assume that the system supplied to Ducati would not be superior to that supplied to the very team sponsored by the owner of Magnetti Marelli. As such one could assume that the Yamaha team have the equal electronics to that of Ducati and likely have later version (overseas rumours would indicate that Yamah do indeed have a later version).

So, with all that, please do explain how Stoner's bike is the sole reason why he is able to challenge Rossi.

Garry

DezinerPaul

28th July 2008, 16:29

If he has, as you suggest the best bike, why is he not leading the championship?

What are Yamaha the leading manufacturer (in current manufacturers chase)?

Why are Fiat Yamaha the leading team?

Given that Ducati are not leading any of these categories it would indicate that they are not the best bike.

Additionally, both Yamaha and Ducati use Magnetti Marelli electronic systems. Given that Magnetti Marelli are owned by Fiat one could rightly assume that the system supplied to Ducati would not be superior to that supplied to the very team sponsored by the owner of Magnetti Marelli. As such one could assume that the Yamaha team have the equal electronics to that of Ducati and likely have later version (overseas rumours would indicate that Yamah do indeed have a later version).

So, with all that, please do explain how Stoner's bike is the sole reason why he is able to challenge Rossi.

Garry

He is not leading the championship, simply because of the problems the bike had early in the year. If there was such parity, as you suggest, how did Stoner blitz the field the last 3 races? The reason that the Duc is not at the top as a Team, is that MM has lost his bottle. It seems that those huge offs have taken their toll. It is no shame that he is winning because of the bike, that is where most of the wins come from. There is such a huge difference between Stoner and Rossi and it was laid out at the USGP for all to see.

alfa155btcc

28th July 2008, 18:27

He is not leading the championship, simply because of the problems the bike had early in the year. If there was such parity, as you suggest, how did Stoner blitz the field the last 3 races? The reason that the Duc is not at the top as a Team, is that MM has lost his bottle. It seems that those huge offs have taken their toll. It is no shame that he is winning because of the bike, that is where most of the wins come from. There is such a huge difference between Stoner and Rossi and it was laid out at the USGP for all to see.

Very Well said, as i jave said before just how good stoner is can only be judged when and if he wins 5 or 6 world titles until then this question is irrelevent.
:s mokin:

alfa155btcc

28th July 2008, 18:28

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/18july08_stoner.htm

was this written by an australian, just a guess there guys :D :D :D :D

patnicholls

28th July 2008, 22:53

...MM has lost his bottle. It seems that those huge offs have taken their toll.

Which 'huge offs' are you referring to?

You can't be talking about the 2007 season:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Grand_Prix_motorcycle_racing_season
Where Marco had no DNFs all year and one DNS (before ending the year with five top 5 places from 6 races - so the injury made no difference).

And from what I remember and can find of preseason action, Melandri had one crash:
http://forums.motorcyclistonline.com/70/6610002/checkers-world-racing/final-motogp-preseason-test-ends-with-lorenzo-on-h/index.html
which isn't described as a big one.

His entire testing season was slow:
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/Melandri+reflects+on+mixed+Jerez+visit
http://forums.motorcyclistonline.com/70/6530449/checkers-world-racing/motogp-sepang-test-day-one/index.html

It's certainly true that Marco's not getting on with the bike, which along with Toni Elias's struggles make what Casey has done (and is mostly doing this year) on that machine all the more impressive. To be a great rider you've got to make the machinery you've got work for you - Valentino turning the Yamaha from one-podium-a-year bike to two title wins being a perfect case in point. The 2006 Ducati was there or thereabouts but to then go to what they did in 2007 is seriously impressive. As a Brit fan who's rooting for James Toseland, it pains me to say it but the Yamaha has been the best bike on the grid over the course of this season.

There is such a huge difference between Stoner and Rossi and it was laid out at the USGP for all to see.

By 'huge difference' you presumably mean 'it was the closest race in years between two riders at the top of their game with one tiny mistake deciding a classic race and denying us a possible photo finish'...

28th July 2008, 22:58

was this written by an australian, just a guess there guys :D :D :D :D

Sorry..........California USA website.........scribe was Dirck J. Edge.....sure don't sound like no cotton-pickin Aussie to me but who knows these days.
Could be a transplant. :eek:

ArmchairBikeFan

28th July 2008, 23:04

As for the Rossi/Stoner at Laguna thing: The Ducati was a good half second quicker than the Yamaha. (Even in the race, when Stoner ran wide and dropped back, he took 3 tenths back on the next lap, and there's no way Rossi was holding back.) That's what people are talking about when they say it showed the difference between the two riders. Rossi took a bike that wasn't quick enough to win and won on it. That's the thing we haven't seen from Stoner (yet...)

As for Marco, he did have a couple of crashes in testing and the early races, not massive crashes, but he hopped off the bike, and the key thing is that he hadn't a clue why. He was baffled as to why the bike tipped over, and that scared the life out of him. He thinks if he pushes it'll just throw him at the scenery without warning.

DezinerPaul

29th July 2008, 06:37

By 'huge difference' you presumably mean 'it was the closest race in years between two riders at the top of their game with one tiny mistake deciding a classic race and denying us a possible photo finish'...[/quote]

Marco was in for a shot at the title in 07 before his huge off that saw him miss the Czech race. He has never been the same since.
As for the "closest race in years" the ONLY reason it was close, was Vali. He made passes that were stuff legends are made of, only to have Stone power back past with a far superior bike. That was not a two man race, it was one man against a great machine.

Ranger

29th July 2008, 08:57

Marco was in for a shot at the title in 07 before his huge off that saw him miss the Czech race. He has never been the same since.

Unless your definition of 'shot at the title' is being 120-odd points behind with 6 races to go, that statement is wrong. Also, his races results were better after that DNS, which would indicate that the effect of that crash is minimal.

As for the "closest race in years" the ONLY reason it was close, was Vali. He made passes that were stuff legends are made of, only to have Stone power back past with a far superior bike. That was not a two man race, it was one man against a great machine.

Two things:
1. This part is obvious, Valentino IS a living legend. No one is going to take that away. Laguna was a brilliant ride by Rossi, and, dare I say, among his absolute best.
2. Do you think there's a reason why MotoGP title-contending, team-mate beating former 125cc and 250cc champions didn't challenge for wins (podiums in Melandri's case) yet alone titles on that 'great machine' Ducati (especially considering Capirossi has been developing that bike since 2003)?

These arguments are starting to get long in the tooth. Roll on Brno!

jim mcglinchey

29th July 2008, 09:15

fercrissakes stop indulging him, hes talking crap.

Roby44

29th July 2008, 09:20

fercrissakes stop indulging him, hes talking crap.

Who??? Stoner or DezinerPaul?? :p

Sorry, I'll write 100 lines... ;)

gco0307

29th July 2008, 09:26

He is not leading the championship, simply because of the problems the bike had early in the year.

Granted that the earlier problems have affected his points haul thus far, but given that all riders (VR/DP/Jorge and CS) have all had at least one poor round (ok, so Jorge and DP have had more), then the results between CS and VR are closer than they look.

If there was such parity, as you suggest, how did Stoner blitz the field the last 3 races?

Where do I say that parity exists?

A look at the results would make one think that the Yamaha is clearly the best bike (in front in all three title chases).

By the way and FWIW, there is no parity across the brands but specific teams are far closer than many give credit (IMO)

The reason that the Duc is not at the top as a Team, is that MM has lost his bottle. It seems that those huge offs have taken their toll.Certainly in terms of team what you say about MM is true and in the Manufacturer stakes the issue is exacerbated by the poor performances of the D'antin team.

By the way, what massive off's do you refer to?

He has had a few accidents this year but from memory I would hesitate to describe them as 'massive' and personally I think that they have very little to do with his current state of mind (which is a damn shame in itself as I do rate MM).

It is no shame that he is winning because of the bike, that is where most of the wins come from. There is such a huge difference between Stoner and Rossi and it was laid out at the USGP for all to see.And here is where I see a problem. Is it the bike that is allowing him to compete/win, or is it his ability that allows him to ride the bike to the maximum?

So many people are apportioning the majority of CS' success to the bike that it really does overlook the guys obvious abilities, which are immense within the sport.

I am also interested in your reference to the differences 'laid out for all to see' at Laguna Seca. Certainly CS was faster than VR in practice, but there are no points for practice and it was here where he was not 'quicker' than VR, as if he were he would have won. There wer sections of the track where CS could make up time, just as there were sections where he lost time (comparison to VR here), but will will admit that with clear track I feel that CS would have been unbeatable.

As we all know, just because a bike is quicker in a straight line it may not be the 'fastest' or 'best' in terms of race laps.

IMO, CS should be given the credit for being able to get the bike to work in such a blinding manner that they are one extremely formidable package.

Garry

gco0307

29th July 2008, 09:32

Very Well said, as i jave said before just how good stoner is can only be judged when and if he wins 5 or 6 world titles until then this question is irrelevent.
:s mokin:

And as I have said before that is not correct.

If you are to compare him to Rossi, then yes he definitely needs to achieve a few more World titles before a comparison should even be spoken of.

But if you are to compare him to other riders (collectively) then he is able to be a part of those comparisons, but still has a hell of a long way to go before he can be considered a 'great' of the sport.

was this written by an australian, just a guess there guys

I am an Aussie and have to admit that the article damn near made me retch as it is (IMO) way to premature and just comes across as written by a 'fanboy' rather than an unbiased or schooled journalist.

fercrissakes stop indulging him, hes talking crap.

Yeah, but it is fun. :D

Garry

leopard

29th July 2008, 09:52

Sorry, I'll write 100 lines... ;)

I'll quote or cut and paste. ;)

Roby44

29th July 2008, 11:39

I'll quote or cut and paste. ;)

Cut and paste!

NinjaMaster

29th July 2008, 13:53

There are some interesting arguments floating around in this thread.
Firstly, the argument that Stoner only wins because he has the best bike is flawed. Obviously the Yamaha is the best bike on the grid with their 4 riders all sitting within the top 9 championship rankings. The Honda is also clearly a stronger package than the Ducati. Only Stoner has managed to muscle the red beast to go fast with the rest of the Duc's languishing, barely competitive.
Secondly, if Stoner's competitiveness is hollow because of a supposed machinery advantage, does this mean that only Rossi's titles on the Yamaha are of any real substance as all the other titles were won on dominant machinery? Even then, his Yamaha championships were backed by the best pit crew in pitlane.
Seriously, for any rider to be championship competitive they need the full package of great team, great bike and obviously a bucket load of talent themselves. Miss any of those things and you're an also-ran.

Stoner is a star. Absolutely massively talented with the potential to win many titles. But Pedrosa, Lorenzo and Dovizioso are also enormously gifted as well and will fight him tooth and nail for those accolades. And then there is, of course, that man Rossi to overcome as well. If Stoner can beat all those guys over his career, he will rightly be considered an all-time great. But that is a long way off yet. He's 22 years old with a good 10 years ahead of him. Time will tell where he stands in history.

DezinerPaul

29th July 2008, 16:16

The bottom line is that the answers to the question posed will be answered in the very near future!

leopard

31st July 2008, 13:13

Once Stoner was signed by Ducati, first thing sprang to my mind that would he be the man who can handle to utilize top speed of Ducati? In many testing they had amazing top speed but neither of their riders can translate the power correctly. Yeah... it may seem impossible he can do it without talent.

Roby44

3rd August 2008, 03:02

On ebay....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DUCATI_W0QQitemZ260269037778QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em260269037778

The Phantom

17th August 2008, 03:16

Stoner has just taken his sixth consecutive pole - the longest winning streak since Doohan took 12 in a row in 1997.

DezinerPaul

29th August 2008, 08:55

Interesting that this topic has stopped dead in it's tack.

Roby44

29th August 2008, 11:20

Interesting that this topic has stopped dead in it's tack.

A little perfectly formed pebble got into the works!! :eek:

MrJan

29th August 2008, 14:51

Interesting that this topic has stopped dead in it's tack.

Once you stopped posting there was no one else who thoughts Stoner was rubbish = no argument :p : :D

The Phantom

30th August 2008, 03:07

Stoner fastest at Misano on day 1 and day 2. Like anyone is surprised, apart from the fools.

30th August 2008, 04:08

Motogp site reports that Casey is carrying a fracture of the scaphoid (wrist I think) which is the same place as a fracture he had some years ago. The Docs aren't absolutely sure how it's happened this time so let's hope the boy can strap it up and do ok.

DezinerPaul

31st August 2008, 21:13

Stoner fastest at Misano on day 1 and day 2. Like anyone is surprised, apart from the fools.

Once again he lost his bike. Guy with the dominant bike once again throws it away.

DezinerPaul

31st August 2008, 21:16

Once you stopped posting there was no one else who thoughts Stoner was rubbish = no argument :p : :D

As far as I can tell, this topic was started by pro Stonerites. For my money he has the best bike by a mile and cannot deliver. If he does not win this year, I honestly doubt that will he will win another title.

Roby44

31st August 2008, 22:48

As much as I'm no Stoner fan, I rather Dovi!, I think Casey is having trouble with the pressure to retain his title now that its come down to the pointy end of things. This is probably due to the fact that he is still only young and hasn't really had to defend anything before not even race wins like last year!

Now too he has the added pressure of Dani being so very close to him as well..

But with time and a few lessons along the way he'll work it out I'm sure..Ride your own race and it will sort itself.

The Phantom

1st September 2008, 00:46

Bayliss commented that the last two circuits have both been resurfaced and that he'd had trouble with front end grip on both of them with the 1098. Stoners first words to his team were that he'd been continually battling the front which wanted to fold - just like Brno. Title is out of the question now, Rossi gets another deserved championship (he couldn't have gone three years without one) and we see what happens next year.

Stoner will still bag some wins and will potentially take every remaining pole. Rossi will know he was gifted the title (note the muted celebrations at Misano).

NinjaMaster

1st September 2008, 08:42

Once again he lost his bike. Guy with the dominant bike once again throws it away.

As far as I can tell, this topic was started by pro Stonerites. For my money he has the best bike by a mile and cannot deliver. If he does not win this year, I honestly doubt that will he will win another title.

Four Yamaha riders in the top 10 of the riders championship, as well as Yamaha leading the teams and manufacturers title clearly blow that claim out of the water. Even Honda have more top 10 riders (3) than Ducati and lead them in the teams standing and only trail Ducati by 5 points in the manufacturers.
If you were to say that the Ducati had the highest potential of the bikes then I would agree with you but it clearly takes a lot more to realise the potential of the Duc than any of the other bikes.

As much as I'm no Stoner fan, I rather Dovi!, I think Casey is having trouble with the pressure to retain his title now that its come down to the pointy end of things. This is probably due to the fact that he is still only young and hasn't really had to defend anything before not even race wins like last year!

Now too he has the added pressure of Dani being so very close to him as well..

But with time and a few lessons along the way he'll work it out I'm sure..Ride your own race and it will sort itself.

I don't think that it's the title defence pressure that has gotten to Casey but maybe a review of his racecraft/tactics is necessary. Like you say though, he's young and I'm sure is learning a lot from this year. It's definately easier to be the hunter and not the hunted.

CaptainRaiden

1st September 2008, 09:01

Stoner will still bag some wins and will potentially take every remaining pole. Rossi will know he was gifted the title (note the muted celebrations at Misano).

So, a guy can't stay on his bike, and that means he has gifted the title to his competitor? That theory is flawed and unreasonable. How can you say that without knowing what the consequence of the race might have been, had Stoner stayed on his bike?

There is no "Gift" in motorcycle racing. The rider who manages to be fast while staying on his bike wins at the end of the day and completely deserves that win. Stoner didn't crash for three races in a row last year, and not even during mid-season this year, then why all of a sudden since Laguna Seca? Any explanation?

F1boat

1st September 2008, 09:07

NinjaMaster

1st September 2008, 09:18

So, a guy can't stay on his bike, and that means he has gifted the title to his competitor? That theory is flawed and unreasonable. How can you say that without knowing what the consequence of the race might have been, had Stoner stayed on his bike?

There is no "Gift" in motorcycle racing. The rider who manages to be fast while staying on his bike wins at the end of the day and completely deserves that win. Stoner didn't crash for three races in a row last year, and not even during mid-season this year, then why all of a sudden since Laguna Seca? Any explanation?
To finish first, first you must finish eh? :)
Rossi was 'gifted' the title through other's mistakes and problems but this is no fault of his own and he thoroughly deserves to win this year. The package of Vale/Yamaha/Bridgestone has proved to be too good for everyone and the acid is now on the rest of the field to improve to beat him next year.

leopard

1st September 2008, 10:36

I hope that Casey will calm down and strike back, maybe not this, but next year. It seems that he is very nervous now and intimidated by Rossi. Maybe that defeat at Laguna crushed him, I don't know. He is young and I hope that he won't lose confidence.

Is it coincidence or they can't have more limit push the bike, but single rider teams have the bigger tendency unable to finish the race. Stoner, Checa when they rode LCR, and RdP are the examples of regular quitter. Hoping that he will find the right teammate who can give the rivals counter attack. Capirosi was fairly good, he rode in the mix as front runner but not too aggressive. It mentally strengthens riders from having the right teammate. Only Aohyama had the disadvantage from the teammate.
I am sure she will calm him down and strike back. :)

The Phantom

2nd September 2008, 02:19

So, a guy can't stay on his bike, and that means he has gifted the title to his competitor? That theory is flawed and unreasonable. How can you say that without knowing what the consequence of the race might have been, had Stoner stayed on his bike?

I'm sure Rossi would be happy to explain, but I'll have a go, and keep it simple - when you have a competitor who is consistently half a second faster than you in every session, who pulls out three seconds in the first two laps, and then lays it down - he's pretty much handed the win to you.

And it's not that difficult to predict what would have happened if Stoner had not lost the front - Rossi is a genius, but he was already steeling himself for 2nd on lap two of that race...

Stoner's Achilles Heel is a front end that he can't 'feel'. See his 2006 campaign on the LCR Honda, vs. his 2007 campaign on the Ducati. Notice anything different in the results?

If he was slower (i.e. rode around at 9/10ths like most of the other guys out there) then any problems with the front end would be negated. But he doesn't like to ride around at their pace, he wants to go at his pace. So we see this problem. Until Ducati get the bike sorted (and perhaps they need to look to the back of the bike to fix a problem at the front, who knows - maybe it was just two oddball surfaces in succession that brought the GP8 down), he is going to be at risk of falling, because he's not about to slow down.

CaptainRaiden

2nd September 2008, 06:50

I'm sure Rossi would be happy to explain, but I'll have a go, and keep it simple - when you have a competitor who is consistently half a second faster than you in every session, who pulls out three seconds in the first two laps, and then lays it down - he's pretty much handed the win to you.

I understand what you are saying, but I think we cannot surmise that conclusively with not even half of the race distance completed. You can never be 100% sure after just 6 laps. If Stoner would have thrown it into the weed with 6 laps to go or 2 or 3 laps to go, then we would have definitely branded it a gift to Rossi, no doubt. Because then we can be at least sure of it somewhat, but who knows what must have happened during the race? Rossi could have closed in on Stoner and overtaken him, he had 22 laps to do so. Are you so damn sure that that wouldn't have happened?

And it's not that difficult to predict what would have happened if Stoner had not lost the front - Rossi is a genius, but he was already steeling himself for 2nd on lap two of that race...

You are a brave man to predict that, because Rossi kept the blasting Stoner behind him in Laguna Seca and was closing in on him in Brno, even if only by some tenths, until Stoner crashed again and robbed us of a great race.

Also, if you remember, in Misano Rossi was doing fastest laps just before Stoner crashed, not necessarily closing the gap, but eeking out tenths in the first part of the circuit, whereas the Duc was blasting Rossi away in the second part. Stoner would have seen that on his pit board that the gap isn't increasing, and that made him push more resulting in a crash. Wouldn't you agree?

Stoner's Achilles Heel is a front end that he can't 'feel'. See his 2006 campaign on the LCR Honda, vs. his 2007 campaign on the Ducati. Notice anything different in the results?

Yeah, so then why doesn't he crash during testing or practice? Why only during the crunch time in races? After the Brno race, in the test on Monday he did plenty of fast laps and was the fastest again on the same track where he threw it away one day earlier. Notice anything different?

If he was slower (i.e. rode around at 9/10ths like most of the other guys out there) then any problems with the front end would be negated. But he doesn't like to ride around at their pace, he wants to go at his pace. So we see this problem. Until Ducati get the bike sorted (and perhaps they need to look to the back of the bike to fix a problem at the front, who knows - maybe it was just two oddball surfaces in succession that brought the GP8 down), he is going to be at risk of falling, because he's not about to slow down.

See man, I'm a fan of Stoner. I admire his amazing ability to turn that Duc into a consistent race winner. But falling down for three races in a row is very uncharacteristic of him. See the year 2007, I don't think he even once crashed during a race. I know the GP8 is a different bike than GP7, but the design is still an evolution and not a revolution. It can't be that radically different. They wouldn't have changed what suited Stoner last year, but only improved some other features.

The bottom line is, Stoner didn't have much competition in 2007 and had a huge cushion in points over Rossi and Pedrosa, which made his life easier and he was more confident. Plus, on faster circuits the Ducati just blasted away every other bike in the way on top speed (See Qatar and Shanghai) and forced Rossi to make mistakes.

This year the Yamaha is a much better machine, and they were searching for more power all winter and they got it. Now it's the other way around. Stoner is forced to push beyond his normal limits by Rossi, which is resulting in him panicking, pushing extra hard and losing the bike.

Maybe you are right, maybe it's just two oddball surfaces that made Stoner lose his front end, since both tracks were resurfaced recently.

I just hope Rossi hasn't gotten into his head, because otherwise we would be robbed of a lot of exciting races in the future. I just say that because Stoner isn't the same in race since Laguna Seca and the "We'll see" incident in parc ferme.

Cheers

The Phantom

2nd September 2008, 07:40

Very well put. I have to agree with a lot of what you say.

I still maintain that Stoner was capable of beating Rossi at Misano (and at Brno), mainly because Stoner is one rider who is inevitably stronger at the end of the race than in the first half.

It's a good point regarding Stoner being fast all weekend without crashing, then crashing when in race conditions. I'm not convinced that Rossi has psyched him off his game - I think he's just showing his youth. If the front feel is sketchy then he perhaps should be easing up a little and winning at a slower pace... but that's not how he's programmed to operate.

Seems his choice is to ride hard and fast and risk tossing it away, or ride a little slower and risk being outfoxed by Rossi. A smart head might go for option A.

ChrisS

2nd September 2008, 10:31

The Phantom

2nd September 2008, 11:32

At Saschenring Pedrosa didn't dominate FP1, FP2, or qualifying, and was clearly riding too fast for the conditions when he crashed. What was your point?

ChrisS

2nd September 2008, 12:54

MrJan

2nd September 2008, 14:01

I still maintain that Stoner was capable of beating Rossi at Misano (and at Brno), mainly because Stoner is one rider who is inevitably stronger at the end of the race than in the first half.

To finish first..... :p :

It does seem like Rolling Stoner is getting rid of all that moss he's collected in the last 18 months :D Most riders go through lean spells (see Vale in recent years) but Casey is a decent enough rider to bounce back, he just needs to stop trying so hard because he's got the measure of Rossi at the minute but keeps throwing away 2.5 second leads.

NinjaMaster

2nd September 2008, 14:02

Pedrosa was riding too fast for wet conditions and crashed.
Stoner was riding too fast for dry conditions and crashed.

Similar thing, different riders, different reactions. My point? Double standards by the Stoner fans
Stoner's times were slower than what he had comfortably been doing in practice where he had been comfortably fastest. Pedrosa was nowhere near fastest in practice and was suddenly multiple seconds faster per lap than everyone at Sachsenring. That was the difference.
Not to say that Stoner didn't push too hard too early though.

Corny

2nd September 2008, 15:50

yes, Stoner's times were slower during the race.. that's not weird when his fuel tank was completely full

When Ducati would send him out with long runs, on a heavy loaded fuel tank his times would not be that amazing..

ChrisS

2nd September 2008, 16:20

Stoner's times were slower than what he had comfortably been doing in practice where he had been comfortably fastest. Pedrosa was nowhere near fastest in practice and was suddenly multiple seconds faster per lap than everyone at Sachsenring. That was the difference.
Not to say that Stoner didn't push too hard too early though.

Valid point, I looked at the lap analysis and Stoner was in-fact in the 1'34s for 2 laps in a row a few times and he was able to put 4 laps in a row in the 1'34s once.

IMHO Stoner was wrong to try to get in the 1'34s at that point of the race, he should have kept on doing low 1'35s like he could easily do. If Rossi was able to put 5-10 fast laps together to bring the cap down a lot and if Rossi still had tyres after that then Stoner could react

The Phantom

2nd September 2008, 23:34

IMHO Stoner was wrong to try to get in the 1'34s at that point of the race, he should have kept on doing low 1'35s like he could easily do. If Rossi was able to put 5-10 fast laps together to bring the cap down a lot and if Rossi still had tyres after that then Stoner could react

That's what I think too, as I put in my response to X-ecutioner. But his age lets him down and he can't yet see that he can win by going slower.

Another problem is that his bike is not the same bike when it is ridden to any less than its full potential. Catch-22.

alfa155btcc

3rd September 2008, 01:38

The question "just how good is Stoner" the answer Rossi is just in another class. He was brilliant at the USGP, he won on a slower bike, the old fashioned way, he earned it wioth sheer brilliand and guts. Probably the best ride in many years. Did not think anybody could beat Dani this year, Rossi can, if he rides that. So we should stop comparing Stoner to Vali, as he and Dani will never be that good.

I agree, he was out of this world at Laguna one of the best races ever for me. :s mokin:

Originally Posted by ChrisS http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=525931#post525931)
IMHO Stoner was wrong to try to get in the 1'34s at that point of the race, he should have kept on doing low 1'35s like he could easily do. If Rossi was able to put 5-10 fast laps together to bring the cap down a lot and if Rossi still had tyres after that then Stoner could react

You sum it up quite well, but i still think he lacks alot of maturity, he only knows one way and that is flat out he is falling off like he did on his honda in his early Moto GP days , and as it has been said previously he had a full tank of fuel. :s mokin:

CaptainRaiden

3rd September 2008, 13:22

That's what I think too, as I put in my response to X-ecutioner. But his age lets him down and he can't yet see that he can win by going slower.

Another problem is that his bike is not the same bike when it is ridden to any less than its full potential. Catch-22.

Yes, interesting isn't it Phantom? Even after having won one championship, this year is where he would get mature, hone his skills, cut his teeth, *insert more*. Knowing when to push and when not to.

I will always be a fan of his absolute flat out brilliance, but he is still a bit far away off the league of Rossi, and I don't think he can pull off what Rossi did in Laguna yet. I'm sure this year would be one of the learning years for the young champion to give him that overall edge over his rivals.

nadalbg

11th September 2008, 15:15

I think he has a lot to learn, he has to finish more races and learn to control races.

The Phantom

16th September 2008, 07:58

MrJan

16th September 2008, 10:34

Apparently Wayne Gardner had a few words to Stoner - basically suggesting that he forget race wins for the rest of the year but instead just go out and bang elbows with Rossi, learn how he races. Sounds like good advice to me.

:up: Doubt he'll want to do it though because we all know that Vale can out race him easily and make him scared (see Laguna for info :D )

leopard

16th September 2008, 11:10

Stoner is there to race which is basically to respond any pressure mutually to produce as much as wins in every race. That advice sounds wise, deserves of respect to think of riders because of its power then they have more control over the game,

DezinerPaul

22nd September 2008, 16:09

Casey Stoner will never win another title!

Triumph

9th October 2008, 15:08

How good is he? Quite obviously world class, with the ultimate award to prove that.

How long to become a motorcycling 'great'? He already is. He has won the world championship. To stand out from the 'greats' (other world champions) I suppose he would have to win a greater than average number of championships, whatever that may be.

I think if he won three world championships you would have trouble arguing against him being one of the alltime greats.

:)

ShiftingGears

13th October 2008, 01:40

I think he has a lot to learn, he has to finish more races and learn to control races.

Yep. I wonder how much of his problems have been due to the wrist injury, and how much of his problems have been caused by him trying to go 110% to avoid going wheel to wheel with Rossi, after Laguna. In any case, he can learn.

markabilly

25th October 2008, 16:33

Ranger

25th October 2008, 23:15

From autosport:

"Knowing the kind of bike the Ducati is, and knowing where Nicky [Hayden] came from on dirt bikes and Superbikes, I just think it's going to be very difficult for him to adapt," Gardner told Eurosport.
"I think he will struggle on that bike. Casey [Stoner] is used to the traction control system on the bike and knows how to ride with it.
"It's gonna be hard to find the limits on the Ducati because of all the traction control," he added. "Look at Casey and he just pins it. If I'd done that on a 500, I'd have been upside down in the grandstand. You need youth to do that. Casey has that."

I would be inclined to disagree with Wayne. Casey also comes from fundamentally the same school as Hayden - dirtbikes. He didn't 'know' how to ride with the TC on the Ducati when he first got on it and was substantially quicker than his team-mate, who'd been riding with the team for 5 years.