Is it time to promote diesel engines in F1?

[Valve Bounce]

At present, diesel engines are outlawed in F1; don't understand why. But with the growing popularity of HDi diesel engines and their fuel economy characteristics, should HDi diesel engines be permitted in F1?

Your thoughts please.

[Whyzars]

With KERS being introduced I think there is an opportunity for the formulae to also bring its technical leading edge skills to the issue of alternative retail fuels. As long as they don't say they are doing it to stop Global Warming then I have no problem with this. When anything is said to be done because of "Global Warming" I barf but thats just me.

I think that they would need to ensure that an alternate fuels is a "consumer" fuel but as long as that is satisfied then I don't see why not, especially with the prevalence of diesel cars on the roads now.

F1 is very protective of its image and the biggest stumbling block will probably be with a new exhaust note. Do diesel cars actually go racing? What I mean is that the only diesels I've ever seen racing are trucks...

[maxu05]

F1 is very protective of its image and the biggest stumbling block will probably be with a new exhaust note. Do diesel cars actually go racing? What I mean is that the only diesels I've ever seen racing are trucks...

Well, a couple of small backyard operations (one was called Audi Dudi, the other was Peugot, I mean, who would call their son Peugot), have actually knocked together some cars running V12 diesels with turbo's and all, then took them to a little go kart track they call Le Manns, and guess what, they won. They didn't look like trucks at all :)

[F1boat]

I have no opinion. To me this isn't so important.

[Whyzars]

Well, a couple of small backyard operations (one was called Audi Dudi, the other was Peugot, I mean, who would call their son Peugot), have actually knocked together some cars running V12 diesels with turbo's and all, then took them to a little go kart track they call Le Manns, and guess what, they won. They didn't look like trucks at all :)

LOL. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I have no opinion. To me this isn't so important.

We are looking for some contributions - please dig deeper into your pocket of knowledge. When a diesel uses a helluva lot less fuel, maybe we can have some innovative fuel stop strategies. I mean, they would carry a lot less fuel for a two stop strategy than a car on petrol, so they would be running lighter and maybe faster.

[F1boat]

Well, then it is not a good idea because the cars are extremely fast right now. Changes were made after 2004 because the cars were becoming too fast. Also this change will artificially leven the competition like after 2002.
I don't like it.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm fine with it.

As long as they kill the engine freeze first!

[Valve Bounce]

Well, then it is not a good idea because the cars are extremely fast right now. Changes were made after 2004 because the cars were becoming too fast. Also this change will artificially leven the competition like after 2002.
I don't like it.

Well, I guess we could put up some speed limit signs around the track and have radar guns and cameras around the tracks, and fine the cars which exceed the speed limit. A second offense will mean a pit stop penalty. That will keep them on the straight and narrow.

[Zico]

Im not sure..
Im trying to imagine a low reving HDI F1 car which uses its torque advantage to great effect on the straights, and very difficult on the corners trying to put the torque down.... To me this move would destroy F1's link with its history of high revving petrol engines, would reduce the overall spectacle and is too big a risk to the popularity of the sport imo..

I say lets leave it to Audi and Peugeot with their sportscar racing..

[Lennat]

The Audi and Peugeot sports cars may be fast, but to me doesn't sound half as nice as a high reving petrol engine. And also, isn't it just the Le Mans rules that threats diesels favourly? I would hate to see that happen in F1, a diesel Ferrari... :mad:

It might be somewhat good for the environmental friendly image of the sport, but I belive it would be stupid to kill the racing just because of the image, F1: s primary job is to provide good racing, not to save the world. :)

[markabilly]

The

It might be somewhat good for the environmental friendly image of the sport, but I belive it would be stupid to kill the racing just because of the image, F1: s primary job is to provide good racing, not to save the world. :)

i AGREE---do not let the world get in the way of racing....who needs it anyway

[ioan]

The Audi and Peugeot sports cars may be fast, but to me doesn't sound half as nice as a high reving petrol engine.

In fact they hardly make any noise.
But since when is the noise the important side of a racing car?!


I would hate to see that happen in F1, a diesel Ferrari... :mad:

I wouldn't hate it at all. In fact what's to hate about it?


It might be somewhat good for the environmental friendly image of the sport, but I belive it would be stupid to kill the racing just because of the image, F1: s primary job is to provide good racing, not to save the world. :)

Take your friend Bush and head for Mars.

[ioan]

i AGREE---do not let the world get in the way of racing....who needs it anyway

:up: ;)

[FIA]

Well it would be something new.

[fabricator/61]

Have you heard the Seat Leons in the BTTC oh sorry they dont make any. Can you imagine the Premier motorsport with cars that sound like a bag of nails at low speed and whistle at top speed. The turbo days of F1 were noisy.

[F1boat]

Yeah, silent F1 cars would be a travesty. The current noise is inferior to the one in 2004 IMO.

[ioan]

The turbo days of F1 were noisy.

It was 20 years ago! :rolleyes:

[gravity]

Le Mans rules favour diesel powered engines atm. I don't think the diesels will perform that well on a level playing field. If the FIA do allow diesels in F1, I doubt there will be any constructors rushing to run diesel engines just yet. Technology hasn't developed far enough yet for diesel powered F1 cars to be an option yet. At least, not without rules that favour them.

[ioan]

Le Mans rules favour diesel powered engines atm. I don't think the diesels will perform that well on a level playing field.

We shall see next year when the diesels will be restricted to run about the same lap times as the rest of the field. I can tell you that their consumption will still be lower and thus they will lose less time for refueling.


If the FIA do allow diesels in F1, I doubt there will be any constructors rushing to run diesel engines just yet. Technology hasn't developed far enough yet for diesel powered F1 cars to be an option yet. At least, not without rules that favour them.

Diesels are developed enough to be competitive and there is more to come, what about petrol powered engines? Not sure there is to much development left for them.

[Lennat]

Don't get me wrong, i do believe that we have to do something to save this planet, no doubt.

But to me it doesn't have that much to do with F1 really, it's still a racing series more than anything else. And the sound of a high revving petrol engine is a big part of what makes F1 what it is, to me anyway. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I have always wondered why diesel engines are banned in F1.

[Rollo]

Diesel engines are not banned.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/115F0A1E47E0A282C12573FB0042CB0D/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20TECHNICAL%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf)

Article 5 of the regulations defines the engines as being:
4 stroke, less than 2400cc, max 19000rpm, as 90° V8s (with the cross section as circular), no supercharging and two inlet and two outlet valves.

Article 19 of the regulations defines the composition of the fuels used.

As no point does it mention how the air-fuel mixture inside the combustion chamber is to be ignited. If you could develop an engine using the Diesel cycle as opposed to the Otto cycle within the regulations, then you'd be perfectly fine.

The question would be whether that would provide any benefit though.

[Valve Bounce]

That link doesn't work :(
Sorry!! it does :)

I think section 19 knocks diesel on its head. :(

[Lennat]

Le Mans rules favour diesel powered engines atm. I don't think the diesels will perform that well on a level playing field. If the FIA do allow diesels in F1, I doubt there will be any constructors rushing to run diesel engines just yet. Technology hasn't developed far enough yet for diesel powered F1 cars to be an option yet. At least, not without rules that favour them.

Exactly, with similar specs except of the type of fuel, I can't imagine a diesel being even close in power.

It is fairly common in a road car to get a hundred hp per litre with a N/A engine, while a diesel usually won't get that much even while turbo charched, for example the Audi R8 TDI supercar gives 83 hp per litre from its turbo diesel.

Of course you have to consider the torque and stuff as well, and it's hard to say how much power a N/A 2,4 diesel could put out, but i doubt it would get the 750 or there about of a modern F1 engine. So yes, in my opinion diesels would need preferable treatment to be competive.

[Rollo]

98RON petrol contains 39.5MJ/L whereas diesel fuel contains 38.6MJ/L. Theoretically if you could use a Diesel cycle to extract more energy out of the same fuel as a regular Otto cycle then it would make sense.

Since the Diesel cycle uses compression ignition as opposed to spark ignition in an Otto cycle engine, and the real differences are the pressures required inside the engine, I don't think it would that much of a leap to attempt it. Isn't that what you pay engineers to test for you, to push the barriers?

Certainly stopping less in a GP might be worth the effort.

[Valve Bounce]

98RON petrol contains 39.5MJ/L whereas diesel fuel contains 38.6MJ/L. Theoretically if you could use a Diesel cycle to extract more energy out of the same fuel as a regular Otto cycle then it would make sense.

Since the Diesel cycle uses compression ignition as opposed to spark ignition in an Otto cycle engine, and the real differences are the pressures required inside the engine, I don't think it would that much of a leap to attempt it. Isn't that what you pay engineers to test for you, to push the barriers?

Certainly stopping less in a GP might be worth the effort.

There's a helluva lot of difference between diesel and petrol. You can ignite petrol just by igniting the fumes, whereas if you poured diesel on some firewood, you still have to use a newspaper lighter or similar to get it alight.

[Rollo]

There's a helluva lot of difference between diesel and petrol. You can ignite petrol just by igniting the fumes, whereas if you poured diesel on some firewood, you still have to use a newspaper lighter or similar to get it alight.

So?
Article 19 already defines what sort of through is going the engine. In theory, a Diesel cycle engine could have practically anything running through it from vegetable oil to nitro-methanol.

By "diesel" are you referring to the Distillate used in diesel engines or the actual Diesel Cycle engine itself?

[Valve Bounce]

So?
Article 19 already defines what sort of through is going the engine. In theory, a Diesel cycle engine could have practically anything running through it from vegetable oil to nitro-methanol.

By "diesel" are you referring to the Distillate used in diesel engines or the actual Diesel Cycle engine itself?

The fuel. I am not aware that you can put petrol in a diesel engine. However, if you think you can, ............???????????????

[Roamy]

At present, diesel engines are outlawed in F1; don't understand why. But with the growing popularity of HDi diesel engines and their fuel economy characteristics, should HDi diesel engines be permitted in F1?

Your thoughts please.

No Way F1 should move to hydrogen

[Rollo]

The FIA could put down any standard it likes to for the fuel, in fact if the petrol companies wanted to develop a diesel fuel to meet the specifications, there's nothing to stop them.

A regular petrol engine does not have the compression ratio necessary to ignite diesel fuel. A diesel engine would ignite the petrol mixture way before the piston had reached top dead centre and push it back the wrong way.
In both cases that's merely because the engines aren't currently designed to it. But if you built an engine from scratch to do so, then there's no reason in principle why it can't be done.

In fact the stressed passing through a top-fuel dragster are so intense, that by about half track, the spark plugs are so buggered, that the engines do "go diesel" and the air-fuel mixture is ignited purely on compression.

[SGWilko]

Diesel engines are not banned.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/115F0A1E47E0A282C12573FB0042CB0D/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20TECHNICAL%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf)

Article 5 of the regulations defines the engines as being:
4 stroke, less than 2400cc, max 19000rpm, as 90° V8s (with the cross section as circular), no supercharging and two inlet and two outlet valves.

Article 19 of the regulations defines the composition of the fuels used.

As no point does it mention how the air-fuel mixture inside the combustion chamber is to be ignited. If you could develop an engine using the Diesel cycle as opposed to the Otto cycle within the regulations, then you'd be perfectly fine.

The question would be whether that would provide any benefit though.

For a diesel to produce the power required in F1 a turbo (or turbos) would be necessary. The use of turbo chargers is not permitted.

Now, look at road car engines. Petrol engines are becoming ever more fuel efficient - will there be a point where diesels get left behind.

Have you ever wondered why diesel costs so much more (13-17pence a litre) then petrol? Industry (trucks, ships etc) use most of it.

Lets keep F1 as petrol to benefit better and more fuel efficient petrol road cars, then free up the energy recovery rules, and then one day, we will have a decent hybrid road car that recovers over 50% energy from its kinetic potential.

[Rollo]

For a diesel to produce the power required in F1 a turbo (or turbos) would be necessary. The use of turbo chargers is not permitted.

A Diesel Cycle engine is one that uses Compression ignition as opposed to spark ignition in an Otto Cycle engine. Turbocharging is done to increase the pressures inside the engine and help shove the air-fuel mix into the engine. You don't actually need a turbocharger to make a diesel work at all.

If you had a car which was relatively down on power and ran slower than the rest of the field, but used the same fuel more efficiently then then car could run longer and maybe eliminate a pitstop. That would save considerable time (30s?) which averaged over the course of a GP might be worth pursuing - that is the reason Audi chose it for the Le Mans 24hr race, they saved 4 stops when they switched to diesel.
But again, there are no regulations specifiying the nature of fuel ignition of the engine.



Have you ever wondered why diesel costs so much more (13-17pence a litre) then petrol? Industry (trucks, ships etc) use most of it.

No. It's Tax.
Distillate (Diesel Fuel) is cheaper to produce than petrol because it requires less refining processes. The only reason it costs more at the bowser is tax. This is irrelevant to this discussion though.

[Lennat]

Unfortunately I can't make a qualified on guess how much power a naturally aspirated 2,4 diesel could produce, but I'm sure it is a lot less than a petrol engine of the same size.

And regarding fuel consumption, you would still need the mandatory stop for tires, so your advantage would be a lighter car compared to the others on a similar strategy, but you would still have the disadvantage of inferior tires for parts of the race compared to the two stoppers.

[wmcot]

The whole thing boils down to the question of, "What does diesel have to offer Bernie?" If there is a way he can fill his pockets, it will be legal (no, make that required) tomorrow! ;)

[Ranger]

Mario Theissen said not so long ago that Diesel engines are not realistic at the moment, unless you want an F1 engine that only revs to 12000rpm.

F1 seems to be going down the path of KERS and energy renewal, so diesel can be left to LMP cars, methinks.

[AussieV8]

IMHO, if F1 goes away from petrol, they need to change to an alternative fuel. Diesel is not environmentally friendly and produces more carconogenic particles in the exhaust than petrol.

At least IndyCar has gone to Ethanol, which IMHO is a better alternative for racing than diesel (although it's nothing special as the production of ethanol from corn reduces available food).

[Valve Bounce]

IMHO, if F1 goes away from petrol, they need to change to an alternative fuel. Diesel is not environmentally friendly and produces more carconogenic particles in the exhaust than petrol.

At least IndyCar has gone to Ethanol, which IMHO is a better alternative for racing than diesel (although it's nothing special as the production of ethanol from corn reduces available food).

I may be wrong here, but it is my understanding that the new HDi diesels produce less carcinogenic compounds. Of course, the ideal would be to have LPG as the source of fuel. Maybe that would be the way to go.

[Rollo]

I went to the effort of getting the answer myself. So I went and emailed McLaren Electronics:



Dear Andrew,

The spark plugs used by Team Vodafone McLaren Mercedes are supplied by NGK. During any given run by the Formula One car, the spark plugs are enabled for approximately 40 seconds before the engine management system switches them off. At this point, the internal pressures of the engines are suffcient to keep the engine firing on compression ignition only. Subject to engine management, sensors will re-enable the spark plugs for the slower portions of the run such as pitstops.

Thank you for your enquiry,
[email:9hno3pj7]enquiry@mclarenelectronics.com[/email:9hno3pj7]


There you have it. For about 97% of a Grand Prix, the cars are running as Diesels.
Case closed.

[SGWilko]

There you have it. For about 97% of a Grand Prix, the cars are running as Diesels.
Case closed.

Wow. Given how volatile petrol can be, I wonder how they avoid pre-ignition at the high temperatures they reach?

Thanks Rollo, nice post. :up:

[gravity]

Agreed! My vote for post of the week, Rollo! (if there's such a thing ;) )

[ioan]

Excellent information Andrew! :up:

I'm still advocating a Technical sub-forum where we can find all these excellent technical information instead of having it lost in the pile of bickering we post each day.

[Lennat]

Very interesting, thanks! :)

[SGWilko]

I may be wrong here, but it is my understanding that the new HDi diesels produce less carcinogenic compounds. Of course, the ideal would be to have LPG as the source of fuel. Maybe that would be the way to go.

Yes, the exhaust fumes are treated by a substance that is sprayed into them before they exit the pipe. Can't remember what this is called...

EDIT - Mercedes call it BlueTec - Cleanest exhaust emissions by injecting aqueous urea solution

[aryan]

Personally I'm waiting for the road going R8 diesel.

I don't by this whole noise argument. The sound of an internal combustion engine is something which we became fond of in the 20th century, but it is IMO by no means an integral part of motor racing.

Diesel has something going for it which actually interests me more than its consumption, namely torque. I guess it depends on your driving style, the Honda S2000 crowd won't like a diesel, those like me who value torque over rev do enjoy them.

The problem has been that car companies have not built their sport variants around diesel engines, as they have automatically assumed that anyone going for a diesel is in it for the fuel consumption, and thus they have usually equipped the softest springs and most docile settings of any car with their diesel versions. With the works that the likes of Audi in the higher end and Renault in the lower end of the market are doing, this trend is gradually changing over time.

The power argument is also pretty moot IMO. Of course, diesel won't be competitive without turbo, but with it, the whole point becomes irrelevent. After all, the biggest hindrance to enjoying driving right now is not lack of power, but excess weight. Give me a 1100 kg car with 300 bhp and 450 lbf/ft in a competitively priced car, and that's all I'll ever ask for.

PS: Insightful post Andrew. Thanks for sharing that.