should Kimi have been called in?

[truefan72]

The same stewards who saw fit to issue a drive through penalty for LH for taking an avoidance appraoch on the chicane to the car in front of him AFTER he passed Vettel, didn't see fit to call in a car with a dangling exhaust pipe for half a race, or even demand that the team fix it at the next pit stop.

I see a double standard here.

If you are going to call the race tight, then call it tight across the board.

...and let's not even get into Trulli's swerve move that could have ended up as bad as his last swerve move on kubica in canade last year.

[Eki]

What would a drive-through penalty have helped? He would still have had the dangling pipe after the penalty. Besides the dangling pipe was not his fault, like the mistake was Hamilton's fault. You are comparing apples and oranges.

[clavius85]

I think the FIA should have forced the team bring him in and knock it off or do something about it. But anything past that, like a black flag, would seem excessive to me. I saw the shot where the thing finally flew off. That definitely was a hazard. What if it had come off while he was on a straight and hit a following car?

[truefan72]

What would a drive-through penalty have helped? He would still have had the dangling pipe after the penalty. Besides the dangling pipe was not his fault, like the mistake was Hamilton's fault. You are comparing apples and oranges.

I said called in, not a drive through penalty. I also said that they could have told them to fix the problem (which is something they have done before) at the next pit stop.

The matter of fault has nothing to do with the situation. If the car is a danger then it needs to be called in. just because the driver didn't cause the problem ( as oppoesd to a malfunction or the pit crew,or another driver) does not mean the car isn't a danger to others.

The issue here is the stewards assessing the situation, just like they did the other, so it is a good comparison about judgment.

[F1boat]

No. His 2nd place is proof that he should have continued. The LH comparison is ridiculous.

[truefan72]

No. His 2nd place is proof that he should have continued. The LH comparison is ridiculous.

how so?

the comparison is about the stewards judgment calls.

are they not the same race stewards?
or does a different crew handle different situations?

of course you can compare decision making process.

and finishing second doesn't not abdicate the danger the other drivers faced.

If a card still drives around spewing black smoke that impedes other drivers but still ends up 2nd, does that justify the danger the car posed to others?

In this case a dangling exhaust pipe was clearly a danger to the drivers behind, who could have been hit by that broken of projectile at an incredible speed. supposed the piece lay on the track and a car ran over it, or if they had to bring out the safety car because stewards could not retrieve it safely.

So making a speculative call on driver advantage on a fast chicane takes priority to driver safety.

[Daika]

When was the last time the stewards ordered a team that de car needs to be fix? Don't think that has happend for the last decade if my memory is correct.

[gravity]

Why did the stewards NOT bring KR in? If they had, who would have been complaining? If your car has damaged parts hanging off it, you are a hazard on the track. That's why they have the 'black and orange' flag in motor racing; If those parts fall off and hit another vehicle, it could cause enough damage to end the race for the other team.

Maybe it was a catch 22 for the stewards...
If the piece doesn't fall off, then it wasn't a hazard. If it does, then there won't be anything to repair in pits, and there won't be a reason to call him in.
The fact that the piece did eventually fall off shows that it was a hazard, and the stewards made a bad call.

[F1boat]

Truefan, there are rules which Lewis broke and rules which Kimi didn't break. That's all.

[Breeze]

Not a question of speed on track, but one of safety for other competitors. Yes, race stewards should have insisted he stop and have it taken care of, for safety's sake.

[gravity]

Kimi didn't break rules by continuing with a broken car, it's the stewards standards we're questioning.
Why didn't they call Kimi in to have his car repaired? It was obviously a hazard. When that piece did eventually fly off the car, he was doing 150mph thru the chicane... could have caused a lot of damage to the spectators even!
The stewards had every right to call him in to have the offending piece removed yet they didn't

[gravity]

Yes, race stewards should have insisted he stop and have it taken care of, for safety's sake.

I guess safety isn't important enough yet. Maybe they haven't got their increases yet :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

Kimi didn't break rules by continuing with a broken car, it's the stewards standards we're questioning.


It was a small pipe. Elements constantly fall from cars. They have no right to call him, if he haven't broke any rules.

[truefan72]

It was a small pipe. Elements constantly fall from cars. They have no right to call him, if he haven't broke any rules.

well that piece wasn't small, and unlike carbon fiber parts that simply shatter off, this was an aluminum exhaust pipe the size of a forearm that was definitely a hazard to other drivers around, the track, and spectators alike.

[F1boat]

That's up for the stewards to say, not for hamilton fans.

[gravity]

That's what they (the LH fans) are questioning. The stewards had every right to call him in. Why didn't they? It was obvious to everyone (even the ITV commentators, and they miss a lot).

[truefan72]

ditto

[F1boat]

The stewards understand the rules better than us IMO.

[truefan72]

The stewards understand the rules better than us IMO.

hmm new found faith in their wisdom.

I recall a certain uncertainty about their decision making process at least year's germany GP, lol

anyway, on to the next race

[F1boat]

hmm new found faith in their wisdom.

I recall a certain uncertainty about their decision making process at least year's germany GP, lol

anyway, on to the next race

The crane, you mean? ;) stupid rule lol

[gloomyDAY]

Yes, I thought Kimi should have been hauled into the pits and repair the damage.
However, there was no attempt to even fix the pipe when Kimi pitted.

If this happened to McLaren there would have been a black-flag.

[clavius85]

this was an aluminum exhaust pipe the size of a forearm that was definitely a hazard to other drivers around, the track, and spectators alike.

And it's probably safe to say that it was quite hot too. I certainly wouldn't want something like that flying into the crowd.

[yodasarmpit]

It's blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain he should have been called in.
The situation of having a part hanging of the back of the car, that could let go at any second, should require he come into the pit and have it removed then be allowed to continue on with the race.
We all saw the exhaust pipe fly of later in the race, and it was down to luck, and luck alone that someone didn't run into it head first at 180mph.

[Roamy]

As much as I like Kimi coming 2nd with the problem. the stewards are clueless. That pipe could have easily killed someone. F1 continues to slide under the direction of Mosely. I was astounded to watch this. Especially due to the fact they could have clipped the wire, refueled him to the finish and the result would have been the same. Where do they get these baffoons?

[Hawkmoon]

The stewards didn't call Bourdais in either despite the fact that he had bits of rear wing flapping around that eventually fell off and remained on the circuit, just off the racing line, for a large part of the race. I don't think there's a question of bias here, just that the stewards have been traditionally reluctant to stop cars that are trailing bits.

I don't think they should have forced Ferrari to stop Raikkonen to see to the pipe but I am surprised that they didn't ask the team to remove the part at the next stop. I'm even more surprised that Ferrari didn't remove themselves. It was dangerous and extemely lucky that the part flew off and onto the side of the circuit.

[call_me_andrew]

Kimi should have been called in. The fact that he wasn't shows blatant pro-Ferrari bias. At least Fox News occasionally admits to being biased.

The Meatball Flag exists for a reason.

http://www.ncracing.org/images/flags/flag_meatball.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

What would a drive-through penalty have helped? He would still have had the dangling pipe after the penalty. Besides the dangling pipe was not his fault, like the mistake was Hamilton's fault. You are comparing apples and oranges.


..............with bananas. :D

[markabilly]

And how many posts in this thread are really concerned about safety?

Clearly it was ferrari, so they should have been pulled in

If it were Mac, well, so what? Not such a big deal. Reverse the roles and a different segment complains



But it was france and just what particular nationality were...........

Methinks that it was clearly becoming a problem and needed a fix.
Letting it fix itself was not much of an answer.

[Rollo]

Why did the stewards NOT bring KR in? If they had, who would have been complaining? If your car has damaged parts hanging off it, you are a hazard on the track. That's why they have the 'black and orange' flag in motor racing; If those parts fall off and hit another vehicle, it could cause enough damage to end the race for the other team.


KE = 1/2mv²

A metal pipe which falls off the car in front has the possibilty of doing more damage than just to the car behind - what of his face? If your closing speed on a bit of falling metal is of the order of 200km/h then serious questions need to be asked.



The stewards understand the rules better than us IMO.
I bet they'll "understand" the same rules better than us when someone gets speared in the face too.

To the FIA - BOOOO - drivers are not paid to lose their lives. You are in charge of the rules, jolly well enforce them.

[markabilly]

..............with bananas. :D
and camel toes??? :D

[truefan72]

To the FIA - BOOOO - drivers are not paid to lose their lives. You are in charge of the rules, jolly well enforce them.

yeah,

apparently that king's ransom that M.Mosley took from the drivers as the super license fee ;"because we provide a lot of security and services to the teams and drivers..." hasn't trickled down to the stewards yet. As they obviously are not concerned about the ramifications of a hot exhaust pipe flying off a car at tremendous speed on both the drivers and spectators.

[Valve Bounce]

KE = 1/2mv²

A metal pipe which falls off the car in front has the possibilty of doing more damage than just to the car behind - what of his face? If your closing speed on a bit of falling metal is of the order of 200km/h then serious questions need to be asked.


I bet they'll "understand" the same rules better than us when someone gets speared in the face too.

To the FIA - BOOOO - drivers are not paid to lose their lives. You are in charge of the rules, jolly well enforce them.

Where do you get a closing speed of 200kph? If the pipe fell off the Ferrari, it would have been traveling at the same speed as the Ferrari until it slowed. This is no more dangerous that if somebody ran over someone else's front wing. Let's not misuse the laws of physics to make an erroneous point.

[Hondo]

I think (with no axe to grind) that the FIA should have had the car called in to fix, remove, or secure the loose part. Perhaps if Kimi had been closer or packed in with other drivers, they might have called him in. Maybe they contacted Ferrari about the exhaust and Ferrari assured them it wouldn't fall off. Maybe Ferrari didn't yank it off themselves because to do so might have gotten them disqualified due to weight issues at the end of the race as opposed to a defective part falling off on it's own.

In a tighter race or some place like Monaco, I think it would have been a bigger issue and he would have been called in to remedy the problem.

[CNR]

do not forget that most of the race race stewards are volunteers
so they may only be at one gp per year.

some of this could be fixed by having full time jobs for race stewards with mandatory training before the start of each f1 season

[Valve Bounce]

I think (with no axe to grind) that the FIA should have had the car called in to fix, remove, or secure the loose part. Perhaps if Kimi had been closer or packed in with other drivers, they might have called him in. Maybe they contacted Ferrari about the exhaust and Ferrari assured them it wouldn't fall off. Maybe Ferrari didn't yank it off themselves because to do so might have gotten them disqualified due to weight issues at the end of the race as opposed to a defective part falling off on it's own.

In a tighter race or some place like Monaco, I think it would have been a bigger issue and he would have been called in to remedy the problem.

And maybe they should call all cars in during a race, just to check that nothing will fall off the cars. :p :

[Rollo]

Where do you get a closing speed of 200kph? If the pipe fell off the Ferrari, it would have been traveling at the same speed as the Ferrari until it slowed.
By bouncing on the pavement? By bouncing off the body work of the cars following? Or maybe F1 cars have been slowed down so they don't get to 200km/h anymore?

How stupid of me to think that flying bits of cars don't hurt people? Cars have been pulled into the pits for far less than this in the past.

[Tazio]

I'm surprised this happened in France of all places!
I thought that for this exact reason,
right next to the fueling rig came a standard---

[Valve Bounce]

By bouncing on the pavement? By bouncing off the body work of the cars following? Or maybe F1 cars have been slowed down so they don't get to 200km/h anymore?

How stupid of me to think that flying bits of cars don't hurt people? Cars have been pulled into the pits for far less than this in the past.

let's look at your physics. First of all, the exhaust pipes on the Ferrari are traveling at the same speed as the Ferrari before it falls off, right?
Now, as it detaches itself from the Ferrari, it is still traveling at roughly the same speed as the Ferrari until it is slowed by contact with the track surface, at which time it begins to slow down; and with additional contact with the track surface it will eventually come to rest, either on the track surface or on the side of the track.

So your scenario that is suddenly stops in mid air to provide a closing velocity of 200 kph with the following car just does not happen, at least not at head height.

So your misquoting the laws of physics to justify your argument is misplaced or mistimed - whichever you choose.

Of course a part falling off a car and hitting a following car would hurt a driver - same as a front wing falling off a car or a wheel or wing mirror, or even bits of aero winglets.
And please do not misquote me - thanks!!

[Miatanut]

I'm a Ferrari fan, but I think the car should have been called in, or at minimum, the team required to re-anchor or remove the part at the next pit stop. There was little question it was going to become a projectile when it went.

[Valve Bounce]

Cars have been pulled into the pits for far less than this in the past.

Could you provide us with some examples, please, so we can put this into perspective. Thanks.

[keysersoze]

Spectacularly irresponsible and dangerous decision not to call Kimi in to remove the exhaust piece.

I was going to add "IMO" but it was so painfully obvious I really don't think it's a matter of opinion.

[Rollo]

Could you provide us with some examples, please, so we can put this into perspective. Thanks.

2008 Monaco GP - Rosberg was called in with a damaged front wing.
2007 Japanese GP - Massa tagged Wurz, was given a drive-through and then came in to have a rear diffuser thing replaced
2006 Hungarian GP - when Schumacher's front wing was loose.
2006 British GP - Button was dropping oil; the flag was never served as he spun on his own oil and out of the race.

Can you provide an example where it is absolutely imperative where a dangerous car has been allowed to continue? Or even why Kimi should have been allowed to stay out in light of the fact that the offending bit of car did actually fall off?

[Tazio]

Could you provide us with some examples, please, so we can put this into perspective. Thanks.I thought of one Valve! Remember the race back when Bunsen use to run near the front, and he kept reaching up to grab what the announcers thought was his visor? After the race he said he his chinstrap was loose, and he had to relieve the pressure so he could breath! Remember that? I know it's been a while :p : Of course they didn't call him in, so never mind! The strap could have asphyxiated him, or even ripped his freakin' head off!
:rotflmao:

[markabilly]

"We had almost half of the race with all the breaking parts so it will be difficult to have the pieces to hand, they are somewhere around the track." from ferrari courtesy of tazio

[Valve Bounce]

2008 Monaco GP - Rosberg was called in with a damaged front wing.
2007 Japanese GP - Massa tagged Wurz, was given a drive-through and then came in to have a rear diffuser thing replaced
2006 Hungarian GP - when Schumacher's front wing was loose.
2006 British GP - Button was dropping oil; the flag was never served as he spun on his own oil and out of the race.

Can you provide an example where it is absolutely imperative where a dangerous car has been allowed to continue? Or even why Kimi should have been allowed to stay out in light of the fact that the offending bit of car did actually fall off?

No I can't. In fact, I am all for Kimi being called in if the defective part was hanging loose. I was watching it on the net and with the slightly fuzzy picture and no clear close up of the offending part, I could not make a call. I am sure the Stewards would have had a better view of it, and if they saw it as hanging loose, then they should have called him in. I am aware that loose exhausts have previously happened on SchM's Ferrari and he wasn't called in. I also seem to recall this happening several times to Graham Hill's BRM. I also recall somebody's wing mirror (can't remember who's) dangling and the car was not called into the pits to have it removed.

However, I would refer you to your physics which, if I understand you correctly, once the exhaust left the Ferrari, it would hang stationary in mid air until the following car collected it at 200kph. This is what I do not agree with - the introduction of the laws of physics into an argument to confuse and confound the uninitiated.

[Valve Bounce]

Oh yeah!! I also remember Kimi's McLaren running around with that wheel bouncing around dangerously until the bloody thing fell off. This is a difficult judgment call by stewards I suppose, but if I was a steward, I would have called him in, just in the hope that Lewis Hamilton might score a point. :p :

[markabilly]

Oh yeah!! I also remember Kimi's McLaren running around with that wheel bouncing around dangerously until the bloody thing fell off. This is a difficult judgment call by stewards I suppose, but if I was a steward, I would have called him in, just in the hope that Lewis Hamilton might score a point. :p :
which is why the stewards did not, being unsafe got nutting to do with nutting when it comes to who gets what

maybe it will be pay back time in silverstone

[Valve Bounce]

which is why the stewards did not, being unsafe got nutting to do with nutting when it comes to who gets what

maybe it will be pay back time in silverstone

You think they will call Kimi in just for being the Joker? :p :

[Rollo]

If the bit falls off the car, then where does it go? Because we do not live in a totally frictionless environment, then if a part falls off it's going to lose "speed" because it bounces off the road, or due to friction through the air.
The car following is still frequently doing at least 270km/h anyway; I don't think a closing speed of 200km/h is unreasonable at all.

http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/france_794/circuit_diagram.html

[Valve Bounce]

If the bit falls off the car, then where does it go? Because we do not live in a totally frictionless environment, then if a part falls off it's going to lose "speed" because it bounces off the road, or due to friction through the air.
The car following is still frequently doing at least 270km/h anyway; I don't think a closing speed of 200km/h is unreasonable at all.

http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/france_794/circuit_diagram.html

OK!! you win professor!! if the part fell off, it will come to a halt, bounce back up in mid-air to be collected by the following car at 200kph, proving your laws of physics hold.

[anthonyvop]

Can you provide an example where it is absolutely imperative where a dangerous car has been allowed to continue? Or even why Kimi should have been allowed to stay out in light of the fact that the offending bit of car did actually fall off?
Which race was it last year where LH had parts of his bodywork flapping in the breeze after a tire blew up?

[Rollo]

The 2007 Turkish GP? Where Hamilton was shown the meatball and did pit?

[markabilly]

You think they will call Kimi in just for being the Joker? :p :
only if he is in front of the bat mobile :vader:

[cy bais]

If this was say .... Sato a couple of years ago...the car would've been a black flag or penalty. This series is seriously becoming Ferrari-centric. The Race Stewards are just as bad as the UEFA referees.

[ten-tenths]

If this was say .... Sato a couple of years ago...the car would've been a black flag or penalty. This series is seriously becoming Ferrari-centric. The Race Stewards are just as bad as the UEFA referees.

common, has there been any other way? ferrari were always favored over other teams.

[Miatanut]

OK!! you win professor!! if the part fell off, it will come to a halt, bounce back up in mid-air to be collected by the following car at 200kph, proving your laws of physics hold.
How long would it take for it to become completely stationary? Wouldn't all the bouncing and sliding be over in five seconds, more or less? Any car about five seconds or more behind will hit it with more than 200 KPH speed difference (if the car were going 200 or more KPH). As it was, it went from moving at, lets say 200 KPH in a horizontal direction to moving a similar speed in a vertical direction because it hit the rear tire or something and got deflected upward. If it landed on the racing line instead of getting punted off to where ever it got punted off to, its motion would have been predominantly vertical down to the track, not 200 KPH horizontal.

Obviously there's literally infinite possibilities, and some of them spell disaster, the dramatic ending of Grand Prix being based on something remarkably similar (the same exact piece, but from a car of 40 years ago). If you hadn't been watching a small, fuzzy internet screen, you might have a different take on it because on the tube, it definitely looked like a potential problem.

Yes, bits fall off cars. What was unusual in this case was there was plenty of advance notice to do something about it before it fell off.

Speaking as a Ferrari fan.

[Hawkmoon]

If this was say .... Sato a couple of years ago...the car would've been a black flag or penalty. This series is seriously becoming Ferrari-centric. The Race Stewards are just as bad as the UEFA referees.


common, has there been any other way? ferrari were always favored over other teams.

That's bull****. The stewards had no problem giving Raikkonen a penalty in Monaco. Or is it only some stewards who favour Ferrari? :rolleyes:

Nine times from ten the stewards are going to leave the damaged car on the track. If the damage is great the team will pit the car anyway and make their own judgement as to whether the car can be repaired, should be retired or can safely continue.

If the stewards stepped in every time a car was damaged the races would become a mess. I don't think the stewards are the ones to whom people's ire should be directed. For me it's Ferrari who made a bad judgement call. They should have removed the pipe at Raikkonen's next stop. If not for safety reasons then at least because the pipe could have fallen off and damaged the Ferrari's rear wing and put the Finn out on the spot.

Ferrari had an opportunity to make the car safe and prevent any further damage but didn't take it. They were lucky that the pipe flew off the car in the middle of a corner and left the circuit without damaging any thing or, more importantly, any one.

[ShiftingGears]

If someone had been close behind him when that exhaust came off that would've been a little hairy. I'm surprised that Ferrari did not remove it from the car, which was a little reckless on their part.

[MAX_THRUST]

At least when other teams win races they have earned every ounce of self gratification from the win, knowing they did not only beat Ferrari, but the rule makers too......

It does tend to seem to always be if Ferrari do it its ok, if any one else does it then its wrong. Sad isn't it!! My old dad always said something along those lines and I thought he was talking rubbish, for 30 odd years. now I'm starting to see what he meant.

[ShiftingGears]

In addition, I think people should stop trying to search for conspiracies to explain steward's decisions, rather than accept that they're just poorly judged.

And anyone who thinks the steward's decisions are catastrophically bad, has definitely not seen NASCAR races.

[ioan]

When was the last time the stewards ordered a team that de car needs to be fix? Don't think that has happend for the last decade if my memory is correct.

Schumacher, Oz 2003 ( I think ).

[ioan]

well that piece wasn't small, and unlike carbon fiber parts that simply shatter off, this was an aluminum exhaust pipe the size of a forearm that was definitely a hazard to other drivers around, the track, and spectators alike.

I agree with you, and I was puzzled the team didn't tear it of during his pit stop. Domenicalli said something about how much time they would have lost by doing that (go figure, he himself said that only the cable from the Lambda sensor was keeping it from falling off) , but what if he would have been black flagged.
It was another mistake by the team to be added to the already long list of mistakes they made this season.

[ioan]

If this happened to McLaren there would have been a black-flag.

You have no proof for such supposition, so please don't go that way.

[ioan]

Where do you get a closing speed of 200kph? If the pipe fell off the Ferrari, it would have been traveling at the same speed as the Ferrari until it slowed. This is no more dangerous that if somebody ran over someone else's front wing. Let's not misuse the laws of physics to make an erroneous point.

:up:
Very good call! :)

[ioan]

common, has there been any other way? ferrari were always favored over other teams.

And when people come up with such statements you realize there is no use to discuss the matter with them anymore, as hate the only thing that drives them.

[ioan]

At least when other teams win races they have earned every ounce of self gratification from the win, knowing they did not only beat Ferrari, but the rule makers too......

Any chance you might be Lewy in disguise?!

[ArrowsFA1]

Anyone remember Monza 1995 and the camera on Jean Alesi's Ferrari flying off and hitting the following Ferrari of Gerhard Berger? As Berger said then:
"The incident was terrifying. I saw the camera flying towards me. If it had hit me on the head it could have had terrible consequences."

[F1boat]

And when people come up with such statements you realize there is no use to discuss the matter with them anymore, as hate the only thing that drives them.

Yes, this is very tiresome. Lewis must always be forgiven because he is a racing driver and Ferrari must always be punished because of MS.
It is very dull sometimes.

[ArrowsFA1]

Yes, this is very tiresome. Lewis must always be forgiven because he is a racing driver and Ferrari must always be punished because of MS.
It is very dull sometimes.
If this was a one way street I'd agree with you.

[TMorel]

I'm back to being confused again as to who the conspiracy nuts think the FIA favour.

Did I miss Ron Dennis screaming about how Kimi should have been brought in?
If he's not even throwing a hissyfit then I'm not surprised the stewards didn't bother.

[Valve Bounce]

How long would it take for it to become completely stationary? Wouldn't all the bouncing and sliding be over in five seconds, more or less? Any car about five seconds or more behind will hit it with more than 200 KPH speed difference (if the car were going 200 or more KPH). As it was, it went from moving at, lets say 200 KPH in a horizontal direction to moving a similar speed in a vertical direction because it hit the rear tire or something and got deflected upward. If it landed on the racing line instead of getting punted off to where ever it got punted off to, its motion would have been predominantly vertical down to the track, not 200 KPH horizontal.

Obviously there's literally infinite possibilities, and some of them spell disaster, the dramatic ending of Grand Prix being based on something remarkably similar (the same exact piece, but from a car of 40 years ago). If you hadn't been watching a small, fuzzy internet screen, you might have a different take on it because on the tube, it definitely looked like a potential problem.

Yes, bits fall off cars. What was unusual in this case was there was plenty of advance notice to do something about it before it fell off.

Speaking as a Ferrari fan.

Yeah!! and if a piece from a satellite fell to earth and hit a car, the closing speed could have been well in excess of 1000kph, in which case, it would have gone through the front of the car, out the back at such speed that the following car would also have been destroyed.

And if they hit a ground hog, and the wheel threw that groundhog up into the air and the following car ran into that groundhog.............................

[ten-tenths]

That's bull****. The stewards had no problem giving Raikkonen a penalty in Monaco. Or is it only some stewards who favour Ferrari? :rolleyes:

Nine times from ten the stewards are going to leave the damaged car on the track. If the damage is great the team will pit the car anyway and make their own judgement as to whether the car can be repaired, should be retired or can safely continue.

If the stewards stepped in every time a car was damaged the races would become a mess. I don't think the stewards are the ones to whom people's ire should be directed. For me it's Ferrari who made a bad judgement call. They should have removed the pipe at Raikkonen's next stop. If not for safety reasons then at least because the pipe could have fallen off and damaged the Ferrari's rear wing and put the Finn out on the spot.

Ferrari had an opportunity to make the car safe and prevent any further damage but didn't take it. They were lucky that the pipe flew off the car in the middle of a corner and left the circuit without damaging any thing or, more importantly, any one.

just saying hawk, ferarri gets its share of penalties. but they also seem to get away with more than other teams.

[Hoss Ghoul]

Absolutely KR should have been called in for repairs. A safety issue, plain and simple.

No reason to bring up Hamilton in this at all(seperate thread questioning F1's integrity...perhaps yes).

You have to be one hell of a Ferrari fan boy to think a dangling header/exhaust pipe isn't reason to pit.

F1 fans joke at NASCAR, but 1 loose lugnut, seen by an official will result in a mandatory repair/fix...but this isn't? Come on...

[truefan72]

let's look at your physics. First of all, the exhaust pipes on the Ferrari are traveling at the same speed as the Ferrari before it falls off, right?
Now, as it detaches itself from the Ferrari, it is still traveling at roughly the same speed as the Ferrari until it is slowed by contact with the track surface, at which time it begins to slow down; and with additional contact with the track surface it will eventually come to rest, either on the track surface or on the side of the track.

So your scenario that is suddenly stops in mid air to provide a closing velocity of 200 kph with the following car just does not happen, at least not at head height.

So your misquoting the laws of physics to justify your argument is misplaced or mistimed - whichever you choose.

Of course a part falling off a car and hitting a following car would hurt a driver - same as a front wing falling off a car or a wheel or wing mirror, or even bits of aero winglets.
And please do not misquote me - thanks!!

valve you are wrongon the physics

if the piece falls off the car whilst traveling at 200mph, is then met by the car behind driving at a measurably high speed, then the relative speed at the point of impact is higher and more dangerous than if the piece was simply stationary.

The wind coefficient caused by the speed of the car and its aero package over that area (as air is forced to flow over that particular area) once it is detached and traveling backwards adds to the overall speed of the projectile. Couple that with the oncomings car's speed and you have a recipe for disaster.

Lets' say you want to ignore all of that and I entertain your theory. Based on the rate of deccelaration, a car traveling 2 seconds behind would still impact the piece at a high velocity. right?

[ioan]

valve you are wrongon the physics

if the piece falls off the car whilst traveling at 200mph, is then met by the car behind driving at a measurably high speed, then the relative speed at the point of impact is higher and more dangerous than if the piece was simply stationary.

Really!
You should postulate for the Physics Nobel Price because this will surely change most of what people believed to be right for centuries.


However I agree that the team should have removed the lose part.

[janneppi]

valve you are wrongon the physics

if the piece falls off the car whilst traveling at 200mph, is then met by the car behind driving at a measurably high speed, then the relative speed at the point of impact is higher and more dangerous if the piece was simply stationary.

Not if both cars were going in the same direction, and to the best of my recollection, in F1, cars tend to go only one way around the track. ;)


The wind coefficient caused by the speed of the car and its aero package over that area (as air is forced to flow over that particular area) once it is detached and traveling backwards adds to the overall speed of the projectile. Couple that with the oncomings car's speed and you have a recipe for disaster.
The tail pipe was not traveling backwards, it simply detached from the car going forwards, altough due to wind resistance it was going backwards if your viewpoint is Kimi's car.



Lets' say you want to ignore all of that and I entertain your theory. Based on the rate of decelaration, a car traveling 2 seconds behind would still impact the piece at a high velocity. right? right

[ioan]

Not if both cars were going in the same direction, and to the best of my recollection, in F1, cars tend to go only one way around the track. ;)

The tail pipe was not traveling backwards, it simply detached from the car going forwards, altough due to wind resistance it was going backwards if your viewpoint is Kimi's car.


I think that truefan mixed up a bit the reference coordinates systems on this exercise! ;)

[Azumanga Davo]

I'm not surprised Ferrari didn't take the opportunity to take the broken part off. They barely remember to the fetch the new tyres for the cars let alone once-in-a-million things like that. :p :

[gravity]

Yet they remembered to bring the fire hydrant out. Was prob a mechanic who was listening to the ITV commentary.

[ShiftingGears]

The only reason for Ferrari not cutting it off, that I can think of, is that they didnt like the possibility of the exhaust system igniting the fuel while a mechanics hand was down there, fidgeting with the exhaust pipe.

[gravity]

The exhaust was on the other side of the car. The exhaust was hanging out of the chassis on a wire... so it would have cost the team less than 10 seconds to reach over, grab the flapping exhaust (which would have cooled by then) and cut the wire. The whole pitstop would have been going on in the background, and even if there was a delay, I can't see it extending the stop by more than a couple seconds. How far behind was the next car that Ferrari couldn't afford a couple seconds for safety sake?

[Valve Bounce]

valve you are wrongon the physics

if the piece falls off the car whilst traveling at 200mph, is then met by the car behind driving at a measurably high speed, then the relative speed at the point of impact is higher and more dangerous than if the piece was simply stationary.

The wind coefficient caused by the speed of the car and its aero package over that area (as air is forced to flow over that particular area) once it is detached and traveling backwards adds to the overall speed of the projectile. Couple that with the oncomings car's speed and you have a recipe for disaster.

Lets' say you want to ignore all of that and I entertain your theory. Based on the rate of deccelaration, a car traveling 2 seconds behind would still impact the piece at a high velocity. right?

Look!! do the maths, and view this from a relative velocity perspective.

If the piece fell off a car and did not decelerate, the car behind would not be able to hit it, as the relative velocity between the two is zero. It has to decelerate, and the more it decelerates, the greater is the relative velocity between the part and the car behind. If the part became stationary in space, then the relative velocity is the exact speed of the following car.

Now, more dangerous, of course, is if a car ran over the offending piece and the tyre threw the object back towards the following car. Then the relative velocity between the two would be the speed of the object going back plus the speed of the following car.

God!! I don't know why, at my age, I am still helping guys with Applied Maths. Next, they will consult me on Solid Geometry.

[ioan]

The exhaust was on the other side of the car. The exhaust was hanging out of the chassis on a wire... so it would have cost the team less than 10 seconds to reach over, grab the flapping exhaust (which would have cooled by then) and cut the wire. The whole pitstop would have been going on in the background, and even if there was a delay, I can't see it extending the stop by more than a couple seconds. How far behind was the next car that Ferrari couldn't afford a couple seconds for safety sake?

Completely agree, the team took the wrong decision.

[Valve Bounce]

The exhaust was on the other side of the car. The exhaust was hanging out of the chassis on a wire... so it would have cost the team less than 10 seconds to reach over, grab the flapping exhaust (which would have cooled by then) and cut the wire. The whole pitstop would have been going on in the background, and even if there was a delay, I can't see it extending the stop by more than a couple seconds. How far behind was the next car that Ferrari couldn't afford a couple seconds for safety sake?

Maybe they were certain that the exhaust was securely attached to the car. (I don't know, and am only guessing). The danger to the car was not from the flapping exhaust but the hot exhaust gasses which could have burnt the car.

Also, by not cutting the exhaust, the kept the 'Joker' option alive if the car needed an engine change as a result.

Who knows!! who really knows!!

[SGWilko]

Where do you get a closing speed of 200kph? If the pipe fell off the Ferrari, it would have been traveling at the same speed as the Ferrari until it slowed. This is no more dangerous that if somebody ran over someone else's front wing. Let's not misuse the laws of physics to make an erroneous point.

Valve, I am truly dissapointed in you. As soon as that part breaks free, it is no longer propelled by the cars engine. So it will, due to friction, air resistace etc, slow down very rapidly.

Did anyone see what the TV camera that fell off Alesi's Ferrari do to Berger's suspension? It absolutely trashed it, ripping the wheel off IIRC. :eek:

[SGWilko]

Valve, I am truly dissapointed in you. As soon as that part breaks free, it is no longer propelled by the cars engine. So it will, due to friction, air resistace etc, slow down very rapidly.

Did anyone see what the TV camera that fell off Alesi's Ferrari do to Berger's suspension? It absolutely trashed it, ripping the wheel off IIRC. :eek:

Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEEBP2EIOsc - 4m19s is where it happens. Not quite as I put it above, but you get the point.

[Tazio]

Also, by not cutting the exhaust, the kept the 'Joker' option alive if the car needed an engine change as a result.

Who knows!! who really knows!! I think it's time for kimi to let the Joker out of it's bottle. It would be a fitting tribute to George Carlin! RIP

[schmenke]

... this was an aluminum exhaust pipe ...

Titanium alloy actually, if I'm not mistaken. Aluminum would melt.

[schmenke]

do not forget that most of the race race stewards are volunteers...

Are they?
Some of the corner workers are volunteers but not the stewards who are charged with enforcing the sporting regulations.

[jas123f1]

I wouldn't whine if the stewards had forced Ferrari to fix the problem in their pit stop, but I don’t think they made any mistake to not do that - they made a decision and that's it - do what they did. That’s my opinion of it but compare it with Hamilton’s rookie mistake is only ridiculous .. :)

[F1boat]

On the other hand, there werent' many cars close to Kimi. Whatever - no matter what Hammy fans want, Kimi is not punished and won't be unless the rules are broken by his team like in Monte Carlo. And no matter how "racey" and "brave" is Lewis, till he is cutting chicanes he will be punished.
It's that simple.
But it is easy to see the world conspiracy against you. McLaren are doing it with much success till 1998 at least.

[Miatanut]

Titanium alloy actually, if I'm not mistaken. Aluminum would melt.

I think F1 cars use inconel through the full length of the exhaust.

[Knock-on]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the FIA didn't give them a Technical black flag. I don't care if it was a Ferrari, a McLaren or a Fiat Panda, you cannot have chunks of metal billowing around.

This is not a Ferrari issue, it is a FIA one and a bloody serious one at that. Can I ask anyone that doesn't think they should have been flagged to remove it the following questions.

What if it flew off and killed a spectator, marshall or Driver. For example, what about if it came off and hit Massa on the helmet killing him.

The idea about safety is to do things before they kill someone. Not after. This goes right beyond what team you support or what driver you hate. It was a terrible decision that only dumb luck prevented a tragedy.

Not when it fell off on it's own accord, not during the Pit stop but as soon as it became an issue he should have been brought in and had it removed. He could change tyres and fuel at the same time but safety really should come first.

[elinagr]

Hamilton will not be the champion--> end of story :D

[Miatanut]

Yeah!! and if a piece from a satellite fell to earth and hit a car, the closing speed could have been well in excess of 1000kph, in which case, it would have gone through the front of the car, out the back at such speed that the following car would also have been destroyed.

And if they hit a ground hog, and the wheel threw that groundhog up into the air and the following car ran into that groundhog.............................

Now, rank the chances of a satellite falling onto earth and hitting the car, a groundhog hitting a car, and the loose piece of exhaust coming off and hitting a car.

Next, rank the ability of the stewards to prevent a satellite from falling onto earth and hitting a car, a groundhog hitting the car, and the loose piece of exhaust falling off and hitting a car.

Average the two. Highest average ranking wins. Funny, the loose exhaust wins by both measures, and wins the combined in a walk.

[trumperZ06]

Once again, another FIAsco !!!

The FIA chooses which rules to enforce & which to ignore... even when safety is the issue.

The flapping exhaust pipe on the Ferrari was clearly a safety issue... as pointed out by the commentators televising the race.

For those of us with big screen HDTV... you could see the exhaust pipe flapping & banging away... long before it fell off the car.

This leads to questioning:

1. Why Kimi's Ferrari wasn't called in for repair... in the first place.

2. Why an inquiry isn't NOW... taking place reviewing the issue.

[ioan]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the FIA didn't give them a Technical black flag. I don't care if it was a Ferrari, a McLaren or a Fiat Panda, you cannot have chunks of metal billowing around.

This is not a Ferrari issue, it is a FIA one and a bloody serious one at that. Can I ask anyone that doesn't think they should have been flagged to remove it the following questions.

What if it flew off and killed a spectator, marshall or Driver. For example, what about if it came off and hit Massa on the helmet killing him.

The idea about safety is to do things before they kill someone. Not after. This goes right beyond what team you support or what driver you hate. It was a terrible decision that only dumb luck prevented a tragedy.

Not when it fell off on it's own accord, not during the Pit stop but as soon as it became an issue he should have been brought in and had it removed. He could change tyres and fuel at the same time but safety really should come first.

I completely agree with you on this matter! (who would have thought this will happen :D ?)

First I thought they will ask the team to call him in and remove the lose part (as it happened with MS in Oz 2003, and he lost the race because of that).
Than I thought maybe it was asked to remove the part during the coming pit stop.
In the end I was puzzled that they didn't bother to take 2 seconds to remove it, as it was only hold by the lambda heat sensor cable.

It was another bad judgement from the team, not the first one this season, that could have cost them those 8 points.

[Bagwan]

Once again, another FIAsco !!!

The FIA chooses which rules to enforce & which to ignore... even when safety is the issue.

The flapping exhaust pipe on the Ferrari was clearly a safety issue... as pointed out by the commentators televising the race.

For those of us with big screen HDTV... you could see the exhaust pipe flapping & banging away... long before it fell off the car.

This leads to questioning:

1. Why Kimi's Ferrari wasn't called in for repair... in the first place.

2. Why an inquiry isn't NOW... taking place reviewing the issue.


Damn , Trum...per , you take the award for most periods used per post . You must go through a lot of keyboards as a result . hee hee .

It sure does look pretty goofy of the stewards , to first , not order him in when the saw the thing flapping around , and then , not say they needed to remove it in the scheduled stop a short while later .
One thing that fits with not flagging him in is the fact that Ferrari didn't remove the part in the stop .

That fits with the idea the perhaps Ferrari were assuring Charlie that the part was firmly affixed , and bringing Kimi in was not necessary at all .
Sensors were reportedly the only thing tethering the item to the car , and it might easily have been that simply believed , or , more importantly , convinced Charlie and crew that it would not let go .
I would suspect the specs of the part regarding the actual weight may have entered the discussion as well , and , not being very heavy , it posed little threat . This is a one race item , more a shroud to protect the body work , which as we saw , is very thin and fragile , and prone to heat damage .
It did look coffee can sized , but I would expect closer to pop can mass .

We , in our armchairs , saw it as wierd , because it looked ready to go at any moment , but maybe it ws even more wierd that it did .

Ferrari had to have had good reason to leave it flailing at the stop because it wouldn't have taken long to snip off . It may have only been to stick to the story , but it is quite possible they were as surprised as we were .

[trumperZ06]

Damn , Trum...per , you take the award for most periods used per post . You must go through a lot of keyboards as a result . hee hee .


We , in our armchairs , saw it as wierd , because it looked ready to go at any moment , but maybe it ws even more wierd that it did .

Ferrari had to have had good reason to leave it flailing at the stop because it wouldn't have taken long to snip off . It may have only been to stick to the story , but it is quite possible they were as surprised as we were .

;) Hhmmmm, Baggie,

Keyboards last me longer than these damn laptop computers do !!!


:dozey: Just a thought... maybe the sensor was still providing information/or the DAS would be messed up if the wire were cut?

I don't know how their system is intergrated... but there could be a good reason Ferrari didn't want to remove the damaged part.

IMO... it was a safety issue, should have been easily resolved, and the stewards failed in their assigned task.

[F1boat]

Hamilton will not be the champion--> end of story :D

;) this will infuriate his fans even more.

[ioan]

:dozey: Just a thought... maybe the sensor was still providing information/or the DAS would be messed up if the wire were cut?

I don't know how their system is intergrated... but there could be a good reason Ferrari didn't want to remove the damaged part.

IMO... it was a safety issue, should have been easily resolved, and the stewards failed in their assigned task.

That's what I was thinking about too, however they seemed to do quite well after it finally flew away.

[race_director]

I found a very intresting still from one the site. in the pic below we can crealy see that LH was four wheels on the green and Vettel was ahead of him . if he had passed Vettel by taking the short cut ( since the track there goes a bit right then left). then its a clear case of deserved penalty

[ioan]

That's not Vettel, it's Coulthard.

[gravity]

^^ I think that was meant for the other thread? http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127879

[Garry Walker]

I agree with you, and I was puzzled the team didn't tear it of during his pit stop. Domenicalli said something about how much time they would have lost by doing that (go figure, he himself said that only the cable from the Lambda sensor was keeping it from falling off) , but what if he would have been black flagged.
It was another mistake by the team to be added to the already long list of mistakes they made this season.
There is a possibility they didn`t want to risk damaging the car further by tearing it off (ECU for example). I don`t buy their explanation of losing time, there had to be another reason as to why they didn`t tear it off.



Really!
You should postulate for the Physics Nobel Price because this will surely change most of what people believed to be right for centuries.

Ditto, the man is a physics genius.

[ioan]

I don`t buy their explanation of losing time, there had to be another reason as to why they didn`t tear it off.

Agreed, however he went on to explain that nothing will be investigated because the lost the parts around the track, so we will never know why they did what they did.

[SGWilko]

Agreed, however he went on to explain that nothing will be investigated because the lost the parts around the track, so we will never know why they did what they did.

Maybe the team were concerned that to snip the wire with cutters risked shorting out the ECU in some way.

The point about this whole episode is that no matter whose car that may have affected, it was a blatant safety issue.

That McLaren have not questioned it merely tells me that they dare not risk upsetting the FIA. Can't think why at the moment! ;)

[Powered by Cosworth]

I think F1 cars use inconel through the full length of the exhaust.

Correct sir. They're about 0.3mm thick :eek:

When they start to crack, they dent it to stop the crack from going any further, most exhausts do 2 races.

[ioan]

They're about 0.3mm thick :eek:

Well, that would explain a lot of things.

[pits4me]

Why did the stewards NOT bring KR in? It certainly appears to be a double standard or sorts. No penalty for crashing out Sutil in Monaco either.

[Valve Bounce]

Now, rank the chances of a satellite falling onto earth and hitting the car, a groundhog hitting a car, and the loose piece of exhaust coming off and hitting a car.

Next, rank the ability of the stewards to prevent a satellite from falling onto earth and hitting a car, a groundhog hitting the car, and the loose piece of exhaust falling off and hitting a car.

Average the two. Highest average ranking wins. Funny, the loose exhaust wins by both measures, and wins the combined in a walk.

Sorry!! :(
I forgot the kangaroo :eek:

[clavius85]

A good view of the damage done to Kimi's car:

http://www.f1-fansite.com/wallpaper/2008/08-FRA/FRA-22-06-08-05-0800.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

How are the exhausts fitted into the manifold/head that they can work loose so easily? Surely it would not be that difficult to have the set bolted onto the head with two bolts which would secure them for the duration of a race weekend and/or series of tests until they have to be changed.

[Tazio]

How are the exhausts fitted into the manifold/head that they can work loose so easily? I understand as a cost cutting measure they are only allowed to use Silly Putty :D

[ioan]

It certainly appears to be a double standard or sorts.


Yeah sure, that's why Ferrari had a double penalty in Fuji last season, And Kimi was also given a drive through penalty for having his wheels fitted 30 seconds later on the grid! :rolleyes:

Some people around here like to post rubbish without trying to make a serious research on the facts.


No penalty for crashing out Sutil in Monaco either.

I first thought that should have been the case, however after sleeping over it, it became more and more obvious it was a racing incident.

[ioan]

Correct sir. They're about 0.3mm thick :eek:


The part looked to have a length of about 200-250 millimeters and a diameter of around 80-100 millimeters.
Density of the Inconel is 8250 kg/m^3.
This gives a weight of around around 0.06 kg = 60 grams.

60 grams it's the weight of 10 A4 size paper sheets!

The conclusion is that the part was hardly a danger for anyone.

[Knock-on]

I completely agree with you on this matter! (who would have thought this will happen :D ?)

First I thought they will ask the team to call him in and remove the lose part (as it happened with MS in Oz 2003, and he lost the race because of that).
Than I thought maybe it was asked to remove the part during the coming pit stop.
In the end I was puzzled that they didn't bother to take 2 seconds to remove it, as it was only hold by the lambda heat sensor cable.

It was another bad judgement from the team, not the first one this season, that could have cost them those 8 points.

On safety issues, you take the red glasses off before you engage brain :D

Seriously though, this was dangerous and the FIA need to explain themselves and how they will stop this disgrace happening again.

I also agree with you that whether forced to by the FIA or not, Ferrari should have snipped it at the pit.

[Ranger]

The part looked to have a length of about 200-250 millimeters and a diameter of around 80-100 millimeters.
Density of the Inconel is 8250 kg/m^3.
This gives a weight of around around 0.06 kg = 60 grams.

60 grams it's the weight of 10 A4 size paper sheets!

The conclusion is that the part was hardly a danger for anyone.

Still, I wouldn't want 10 A4 sheets of paper hitting me at 300km/h!

[CNR]

i think the manifold may have cracked up

http://i29.tinypic.com/jfx8cl.jpg

[ioan]

The part looked to have a length of about 200-250 millimeters and a diameter of around 80-100 millimeters.
Density of the Inconel is 8250 kg/m^3.
This gives a weight of around around 0.06 kg = 60 grams.

60 grams it's the weight of 10 A4 size paper sheets!

The conclusion is that the part was hardly a danger for anyone.

Oups my bad, make that 140 - 180 grams. It's starting to look heavy now. :(

[gravity]

Oups my bad, make that 140 - 180 grams. It's starting to look heavy now. :(

Phew! I was just about to post something about that ;)
Not that I would have sat and calculated the mass of the part, myself. I was going to mention the amount of damage shown in that picture relative to the mass of the part.

[yodasarmpit]

The part looked to have a length of about 200-250 millimeters and a diameter of around 80-100 millimeters.
Density of the Inconel is 8250 kg/m^3.
This gives a weight of around around 0.06 kg = 60 grams.

60 grams it's the weight of 10 A4 size paper sheets!

The conclusion is that the part was hardly a danger for anyone.You know that's not true, so no point arguing the point.
Where paper would deflect, a metal shard would be far less forgiving, especially if it hit the visor area.
You have seen what a small shard of carbon fibre can do to an F1 tyre, and those weigh very little.


When the exhaust finally dislodged from Kimi's car it was thrown into the air at high velocity, however it would have encountered some wind resistance prior to falling to earth. This would have caused it's forward momentum to be reduced significantly, enough that the impact speed of hitting an oncoming car would be sufficient to cause a great deal of harm.
Let alone the damage it could cause if it was thrown into the crowd.

Regardless of which team or driver you/me/we support or favour, this was essentially a matter of safety, not only for the drivers but also the spectators.

Both the FIA and Ferrari are guilty of incorrectly prioritising the incident.

[Garry Walker]

You know that's not true, so no point arguing the point.
Where paper would deflect, a metal shard would be far less forgiving, especially if it hit the visor area.
You have seen what a small shard of carbon fibre can do to an F1 tyre, and those weigh very little.


Are you really comparing F1 tyres with a F1 helmet that can withstand a tank going over it?

[yodasarmpit]

Are you really comparing F1 tyres with a F1 helmet that can withstand a tank going over it?Visor

[ioan]

You know that's not true, so no point arguing the point.
Where paper would deflect, a metal shard would be far less forgiving, especially if it hit the visor area.

I think that you are missing the fact that that pipe had a thickness of 0.3 millimeters, around 3 sheets of paper that is.

Maybe you can make a simulation about how this piece of 0.3 millimeter thin tube would have affected (or rather been affected) by the contact with a helmet that is bullet proof and can withstand the weight of a tank.

I could do it, but it would be lots of wasted time cause in the end it would be dismissed based on some stupid argument about it's color being somewhat reddish! :p :

[ioan]

Visor

Be assured, the visor of a modern crash helmet is very very very resistant to shock.

FYI:


Before the FIA grants its approval for a helmet to be used by an F1 driver, it has to pass a number of different crash tests. During the so-called 'penetration test' a 3kg, pointed metal object is dropped from a height of three meters onto the helmet, which must remain unruptured. Subjected to a load of 38kg, the chin strap may not stretch by more than 30mm. The visor is bombarded with projectiles traveling at approximately 500km/h. The points of impact may be no deeper than 2.5mm. Helmet is then subjected to an 800°C flame for 45 seconds in the fire test. During this time, temperatures inside the helmet may not exceed 70°C.

http://www.f1network.net/boards/report/s85.htm?85,8901199

Not that this will stop the McLaren fans talking bollocks.

I was mystified by the decision to leave that part flapping around on that car, however after doing my homework it is clear that it was not dangerous.

[Knock-on]

Be assured, the visor of a modern crash helmet is very very very resistant to shock.

FYI:



http://www.f1network.net/boards/report/s85.htm?85,8901199

Not that this will stop the McLaren fans talking bollocks.

This really is disgraceful, even from you and you should be ashamed :(


I was mystified by the decision to leave that part flapping around on that car, however after doing my homework it is clear that it was not dangerous.

That is , as you say, b*llocks. As I said before, it was only luck that it didn't cause any damage.

You are saying that because it cannot penetrate a helmet, it was safe. I bet if I stood a few feet away from you and lobbed it at your head, you would not think it was too safe so what about flinging at your head at 200 mph.

Still, nobody gives a crap if a Marshall gets killed or it shreds a tyre of a following car. As long as you can engage in stupid insults against other fans instead of replying maturely to a very serious subject.

:rolleyes:

[ioan]

This really is disgraceful, even from you and you should be ashamed :(



That is , as you say, b*llocks. As I said before, it was only luck that it didn't cause any damage.

You are saying that because it cannot penetrate a helmet, it was safe. I bet if I stood a few feet away from you and lobbed it at your head, you would not think it was too safe so what about flinging at your head at 200 mph.

Still, nobody gives a crap if a Marshall gets killed or it shreds a tyre of a following car. As long as you can engage in stupid insults against other fans instead of replying maturely to a very serious subject.

:rolleyes:

FGS marshals are not sitting a few feet away from the cars that go by, they are situated tens of meters away from the track.

That part had around 150 grams and a pretty big surface, which made that it flew at maximum 10 meters away of the track when the cable broke.

You may be sure that the engineers knew pretty much all this could happen and there was no danger involved, otherwise they wouldn't have risked to endanger someones life.

How many times did we see cars go back to the pits with a delaminating tire that was throwing chunks of rubber around? You bet those tire bits were heavier than this piece of tin. Still no one called for a penalty.

Was it Montoya's or Kimi's McLaren racing around with a flapping mirror a few years ago?!

There was no penalty either even though not having a mirror might be seen a tad more dangerous than a missing piece of exhaust pipe.

[yodasarmpit]

FGS marshals are not sitting a few feet away from the cars that go by, they are situated tens of meters away from the track.

That part had around 150 grams and a pretty big surface, which made that it flew at maximum 10 meters away of the track when the cable broke.

You may be sure that the engineers knew pretty much all this could happen and there was no danger involved, otherwise they wouldn't have risked to endanger someones life.

How many times did we see cars go back to the pits with a delaminating tire that was throwing chunks of rubber around? You bet those tire bits were heavier than this piece of tin. Still no one called for a penalty.

Was it Montoya's or Kimi's McLaren racing around with a flapping mirror a few years ago?!

There was no penalty either even though not having a mirror might be seen a tad more dangerous than a missing piece of exhaust pipe.I honestly believe you are now arguing for the sake of arguing, but that's just my personal opinion.

I discussed the direct consequences of the exhaust falling off and striking a driver or spectator, however you also have to consider the indirect consequences that also pose a direct risk.
I would imagine a driver traveling at 180mph and seeing an exhaust part heading for them would cause the driver to swerve, this would increase the potential for a big crash.

Yes motorsport is a dangerous pursuit, but there is no need to add extra danger just for a laugh.

There is also no need to suggest that calling Kimi in would be a penalty, yes it would effect the strategy, but he had a sufficient lead that the removal could have been combined with a pit stop.

I think that it would have been a wise choice to bring him in and remove the loose exhaust part, but again I'm only a spectator and I don't possess the combined knowledge of the FIA or Ferrari so I may very well be incorrect.
I do, however try to back up my post with a reasoned argument.

[Valve Bounce]

I think ioan has a point here. This is probably no more dangerous than a car flying into the air in a crash and bits flying off towards the side of the track which might hit a marshal or someone.

[Bagwan]

I think ioan has a point here. This is probably no more dangerous than a car flying into the air in a crash and bits flying off towards the side of the track which might hit a marshal or someone.

Take a pop can , empty it , and throw it as hard as you can , and see how far it goes .
Then , roll a tire in the same direction .

Which went farther ?

[ioan]

I honestly believe you are now arguing for the sake of arguing, but that's just my personal opinion.

I discussed the direct consequences of the exhaust falling off and striking a driver or spectator, however you also have to consider the indirect consequences that also pose a direct risk.
I would imagine a driver traveling at 180mph and seeing an exhaust part heading for them would cause the driver to swerve, this would increase the potential for a big crash.

Yes motorsport is a dangerous pursuit, but there is no need to add extra danger just for a laugh.

There is also no need to suggest that calling Kimi in would be a penalty, yes it would effect the strategy, but he had a sufficient lead that the removal could have been combined with a pit stop.

I think that it would have been a wise choice to bring him in and remove the loose exhaust part, but again I'm only a spectator and I don't possess the combined knowledge of the FIA or Ferrari so I may very well be incorrect.
I do, however try to back up my post with a reasoned argument.

I honestly think that I provided tangible calculations and other proof to support my point of view.

I even provided a link to show that your suppositions about the helmet visors were wrong.

What have you brought to the discussion, other than the silver tainted glasses?! NOTHING!

[gravity]

FGS marshals are not sitting a few feet away from the cars that go by, they are situated tens of meters away from the track.

That part had around 150 grams and a pretty big surface, which made that it flew at maximum 10 meters away of the track when the cable broke.


I doubt that it only went 10m.
The chances are that if a piece of a car is flapping around as is going to break, it will do so when the part is under maximum strain. In this case, it was prob the fastest left hand corner on the track? Or, at least, a left hand corner where the car is at maximum strain against g-forces.

Since this piece of steel pipe was not important enough for stewards or Ferrari to be bothered about it, let's say it dropped off the car (anyone's car) and was lying in the road.
Do u think the drivers might try avoid it, or would they think, "It's such a light piece of metal that broke off an exhaust, I can run straight over it and not worry. (yawn)".
Or maybe the Ferrari telemetry would be interesting to hear, "It's okay Bob, continue on the racing line, that piece of metal in the road is only 150g"

[ioan]

I doubt that it only went 10m.
The chances are that if a piece of a car is flapping around as is going to break, it will do so when the part is under maximum strain. In this case, it was prob the fastest left hand corner on the track? Or, at least, a left hand corner where the car is at maximum strain against g-forces.

Since this piece of steel pipe was not important enough for stewards or Ferrari to be bothered about it, let's say it dropped off the car (anyone's car) and was lying in the road.
Do u think the drivers might try avoid it, or would they think, "It's such a light piece of metal that broke off an exhaust, I can run straight over it and not worry. (yawn)".
Or maybe the Ferrari telemetry would be interesting to hear, "It's okay Bob, continue on the racing line, that piece of metal in the road is only 150g"

There are often pieces of body work on the track and they usually (99% of cases) manage to avoid them.
Also given it's size and weight it would have been washed out of the track after a few cars went around it.

And FYI, you can't hear telemetry! :p :

[SGWilko]

Also given it's size and weight it would have been washed out of the track after a few cars went around it.

Wasn't raining that hard was it? ;)

[JSH]

Soo.... :cool:

Has anyone of you genius's managed to find the actual FIA regulation covering this situation. I admit I haven't yet through my thorough 30 seconds worth of searching...

I think if we can find the ACTUAL regulation (not someone just writing it but a real link), it may help solve the question of "Should he have been called in?" YES or NO.

:p :

[cy bais]

IMO yeah - should've been called in. the ferrari favoritism is getting rather obvious these days.

:)

[Daniel]

Where do you get a closing speed of 200kph? If the pipe fell off the Ferrari, it would have been traveling at the same speed as the Ferrari until it slowed. This is no more dangerous that if somebody ran over someone else's front wing. Let's not misuse the laws of physics to make an erroneous point.

Someone got told :D

[Daniel]

Wasn't raining that hard was it? ;)

He means by the airflow around the cars I'm assuming :)

[Rollo]

Be assured, the visor of a modern crash helmet is very very very resistant to shock.

Exhibit 1.
http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/picslib/picf3_1.jpg
If something goes through someone's visor, the result could be fatal.

A "small part" on a track contributed to Senna's death.
http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/picslib/picf1-2.jpg
The part that fell off the Ferrari was far bigger than this.



There are often pieces of body work on the track and they usually (99% of cases) manage to avoid them.
And the remaining 1%?

There is no doubt in my mind at all that the Ferrari should have been called in. Some of us have memories far longer than just last week.

[Valve Bounce]

Hang on!! I thought Senna's death was caused by the steering column. Could someone clarify, please.

[pino]

Hang on!! I thought Senna's death was caused by the steering column. Could someone clarify, please.

Please don't...this thread is about Kimi not Senna :)

[leopard]

Hang on!! I thought Senna's death was caused by the steering column. Could someone clarify, please.
I think so most probably, obviously it was destiny. :)

[ioan]

Exhibit 1.
http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/picslib/picf3_1.jpg
If something goes through someone's visor, the result could be fatal.


Did you manage to read that article I linked to, about the latest FIA tests that helmets and visors have to pass in order to be used?!

If you didn't than go read it, even better I'll post the text again, and to make it easier the interesting part is in bold and underlined:


Before the FIA grants its approval for a helmet to be used by an F1 driver, it has to pass a number of different crash tests. During the so-called 'penetration test' a 3kg, pointed metal object is dropped from a height of three meters onto the helmet, which must remain unruptured. Subjected to a load of 38kg, the chin strap may not stretch by more than 30mm. The visor is bombarded with projectiles traveling at approximately 500km/h. The points of impact may be no deeper than 2.5mm. Helmet is then subjected to an 800°C flame for 45 seconds in the fire test. During this time, temperatures inside the helmet may not exceed 70°C.



What you were posting are nostalgic pictures from 1994, I've got news for you, it's been 14 years since that and the world did advance a lot.

[Bagwan]

An FIA spokesperson said , as reported by GPweek :
"The race director considered the risk to be low , as the part was light ."

They must have read my post #98 .

"I would suspect the specs of the part regarding the actual weight may have entered the discussion as well , and , not being very heavy , it posed little threat . This is a one race item , more a shroud to protect the body work , which as we saw , is very thin and fragile , and prone to heat damage .
It did look coffee can sized , but I would expect closer to pop can mass ."

[trumperZ06]

;) Still a safety issue!!!

A tyre (tire) running over it at speed could result in a "Blow-Out".

[Bagwan]

;) Still a safety issue!!!

A tyre (tire) running over it at speed could result in a "Blow-Out".


Nice job , trumper . Only one period . Heehee .

You're right , my friend , but this whole sport isn't exactly the safest thing to be doing in itself .
Charlie was there , seeing at least as much as we did , and deemed it a low risk .
He would have actual figures on weight and size , and be more prepared to judge that risk than you or I .

Debris on track will always be an issue , and cars with pieces loose will as well . Both situations must be dealt with on an individual basis , assessing dangers to spectators , course workers , and of course , drivers .

Charlie deemed it a low risk because of the mass of the object .
That's the call that must be made .

Think of it like that pop can , not aerodynamic in any way , and large for it's weight . It carried very little potential energy as a result , and therefore the risk was deemed low .

[trumperZ06]

Thanks, Baggie !!!

;) I'm saving my ..... key for special occasions !
This laptop seems like it may last a little longer than earlier versions have.

:dozey: Formula One lives by their own Rules & judgements.

They do have the "MEATBALL" flag... the same as other racing series do,

but I'm not sure Charlie has a Clue what the flag is used for !!!

[Daniel]

Thanks, Baggie !!!

;) I'm saving my ..... key for special occasions !
This laptop seems like it may last a little longer than earlier versions have.

:dozey: Formula One lives by their own Rules & judgements.

They do have the "MEATBALL" flag... the same as other racing series do,

but I'm not sure Charlie has a Clue what the flag is used for !!!
The fact of the matter is no one was hurt so in hindsight you'd have to say they made the best decision. Of course without hindsight you'd say they made a bad decision.

[fabricator/61]

I am afraid that ferrari are untouchable, if that had been any other car they would have been black flagged. Its one set of rules for them and another for every one else. There was an a saying in F1 in the '70's "F1 SUCKS" time to resurect it I think.

[call_me_andrew]

An FIA spokesperson said , as reported by GPweek :
"The race director considered the risk to be low , as the part was light ."

It was "light"? That's hardly a good rationale. The whole damn car is "light"!

I recall the 2005 USGP when fans were throwing debris onto the track. Even a plastic water bottle was considered dangerous then. But somehow an exhaust pipe isn't.

[Rollo]

Did you manage to read that article I linked to, about the latest FIA tests that helmets and visors have to pass in order to be used?!

What you were posting are nostalgic pictures from 1994, I've got news for you, it's been 14 years since that and the world did advance a lot.

No, and quite frankly I wouldn't bother considering that the FIA standard is found here:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... Helmet.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0595C95D6AD8F507C12574430035664C/$FILE/12-FIA_Advanced_Helmet.pdf)

If you want to argue the tehcnical aspects of the sport then the only authority is the FIA. End of story.

Helmets are subject to the FIA standard 8856-2000, which adpoted the Snell SA2000 standards ©1990. The same regs which applied then apply now. Perhaps you should read either your own material or the sporting regulations first.

[ioan]

No, and quite frankly I wouldn't bother considering that the FIA standard is found here:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... Helmet.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0595C95D6AD8F507C12574430035664C/$FILE/12-FIA_Advanced_Helmet.pdf)

If you want to argue the tehcnical aspects of the sport then the only authority is the FIA. End of story.

Helmets are subject to the FIA standard 8856-2000, which adpoted the Snell SA2000 standards ©1990. The same regs which applied then apply now. Perhaps you should read either your own material or the sporting regulations first.

You should read the documents you have linked too.
1. It states the same thing as the article I linked too, only that I gave you everything in 5 lines instead of 20 pages.

2. It says that it says something about FIA Standard 8860-2004 not FIA standard 8856-2000 as you said.

3. It also says:

This specification has been developed to be complimentary to the test methods and criteria specified by Snell SA2000.

So next time read what you post man. :rolleyes:

End of story. :laugh: