Danica hurts the IRL?

[mlj]

So do you agree or disagree?

Reported on AR1
Danica Patrick bad for the IRL in long run
Danica spreads it wide for FHM Magazine. Selling sex is making money for her, but she is ruining IndyCar Racing in the long run according to the study. In essence sex is not a sport and does nothing to make you a better athlete. Some say if she spent more time behind the wheel and less time taking her clothes off in front of the camera she would be a better driver
It has been quite a year for Danica Patrick. She became the first woman to win an Indy Car race, coming in first at the Indy Japan 300 on April 20. She also became the first race care driver to pose for the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.

The good people at Sports Illustrated (SI) never thought to give us Richard Petty in a speedo, but Danica, bent over in a white ruffle bikini, must for some reason have seemed like a winner. In accomplishing this dubious double play, Patrick has revived a debate as old as Sonia Henie skating figure eights at the 1926 Olympics: Does sex sell -- or perhaps more aptly phrased, does sexism sell -- women's sports? Does objectifying women athletes, highlighting their bodies over their skill, putting them in swimsuits or on the covers of yuppie porn like FHM or Stuff, actually increase the interest and fanbase of women's sports? The debate has always had Faustian overtones: Is it worth turning proud women athletes into frat house cheesecake if it's for the greater good, the greater exposure, of the games themselves?

Thanks to Dr. Mary Kane, this is no longer a moral question. The sports sociologist from the University of Minnesota has produced a far-reaching study that shows sex certainly does sell, but alas, it sells only magazines, not sports. Kane and her research team showed a series of images of women athletes putting their bodies on display for a wide-ranging focus group of men and women and found out a very basic truth:

"It alienates the core of the fan base that's already there. Women both aged 18-34, and 35-55, are put off by these images. And older males, fathers with daughters, taking their daughters to sporting events to see their favorite female athletes, are deeply offended by these images."
As for the young men excited to see Danica in leather, spread out on a car: "They want to buy the magazines but they didn't want to consume the sports," Kane said to me. In the end, she feels the research is unequivocal: "Does it increase the interest in women's sports? At least for the seventy-plus people we spoke to, the answer is a resounding no. It does not."

This should be an earth-rattling revelation for every executive in the Women's Tennis Association, the WNBA, and the LPGA tour, who have for decades thought that a little leg goes a long way. Without their leadership, Maxim and company would have to be content with whatever half-wit from the Hills strolled into their studios half-naked that week. But the leadership of women's sports, as Kane argues pervasively, will need more than logic to move away from the abyss of abject objectification. More ...

[Mr Peppermill]

Disagree.

I don't give a rat's ***** for the "the core of the fan base", without Danica IRL would have been nothing in 2005, 2006 and 2007. It probably wouldn't even survived until the merger.

[Breeze]

Disagree.

I don't give a rat's ***** for the "the core of the fan base", without Danica IRL would have been nothing in 2005, 2006 and 2007. It probably wouldn't even survived until the merger.
Well, at least the good Dr. Kane has employed the scientific method and provided data to support her conclusions. :dozey:

[NickFalzone]

She's also a girl, and girls have cooties.

[mlj]

here's the rest of the article.........


"This is deeper. This is also about what runs in the bone marrow of women's sports, namely 'homophobia.' They are very well meaning but they also want to distance themselves from the 'lesbian label,' " she says. "How do you do that? You reassure the viewing audiences, the corporate sponsors, the TV networks and the female athletes themselves, that 'no, no, no, sports won't make your daughter gay.' Women's sports will be more acceptable if you believe, even though it is stereotypical and inaccurate, that if you are pretty and feminine in a traditional sense then you are not gay."

In other words, it's not Danica and her half-clothed athletic sisters that drive this machine. It's driven by corporate sponsors and homophobia.

But what about the women who say that provocative poses are about celebrating their bodies, and celebration of the body beautiful has been a part of sports since ancient Greece?

Kane answers, "What muscle group do bare breasts belong to? You can show off your body without being naked in a passive, sexually provocative pose."

The message to Danica Patrick couldn't be clearer: By using sex and skin, you're not selling your sport. You're only selling out. HuffingtonPost.com

[Wilf]

Is there a more frequent thread other then DANICA this or DANICA that?? If there is a more core goup of fans than those who particpate in this forum, they are nuts!

That Danica threads are read more often and posted to more than almost any other thread certainly demonstrates that the core is turned off.

Folks who live in "Ivory Towers" should subject their papers to the corner bar before releasing them; they might not come off so irrelevant.

[downtowndeco]

Dumb dumb story. What's next, "It's a disadvantage in life to be good looking and wealthy?"

[MDS]

I have never been impressed by anything Danica Patrick has done inside, outside or on top of a race car.

[Wilf]

I have never been impressed by anything Danica Patrick has done inside, outside or on top of a race car.


Race winners routinely disappoint me also.

[beachbum]

First, I don't pay much attention to anything on AR1. They still seem to hold a grudge about the way the "merger" came about and find any reason to bash the IRL.

However, the article was published elsewhere and the fact that is was mainstream should warrant some attention. Agree or disagree, it is an opinion shared by some non-racing fans. The only reason the Helmet gets talked about so much is that she is so controversial. She gets attention for the series which is good, but at what point does that attention turn negative?

Women in sports have always had trouble being taken seriously, particularly in motorsports. Danica's playing the sex angle (or sometimes the stereotypical bitch angle) does nothing to change the perception of some that she is just a novelty. She reinforces the stereotype that women only get ahead by using their appearance, and not their talents. There are other women with better racing records, and as much or more talent who either can't get any support, or remain anonymous to most race fans. Why? Because they wanted to be judged as a racer first, and not pander to some male fantasy.

In anything, the DP phenomenon shows just how far a marketing machine can take someone with reasonable talent and a novel "hook" and propel them to celebrity. IMHO, The Helmet didn't get where she is from a strong history of racing results, but from notoriety, novelty, and a great PR machine. Does that make her a professional race driver or a professional celebrity driving a race car? Based on the article, that is a question some outside of racing are starting to ask.

[MDS]

Race winners routinely disappoint me also.

I'm still waiting for her to get a win against a full field.

Exactly how many podiums, or top 5 finishes, does he have since Motegi?

[icehammer97]

1. She is not that great of a driver (one win in a smaller field on fuel milage alone even Helio who was told to let her pass didn't know it was for the lead) She has never finished better then 7th in the championship. She never won a single race in the lower levels of open wheel racing and would never have made it to the IRL if she wasn't a women.

2. It is not good for a sport to relay on one player to get fans. What will happen when Danica retires? Will the IRL hope that her fans will stay if there are no women drivers? (this only applies to the fans who like her because of her gender or her looks or both which I would be willing to bet is a large amont of her fans) Will the IRL put a women in the car who has the talent level of Dunno and market her as the next Danica? It is not just IRL or racing that has that problem. Look at how many times people have been named the next MJ in the NBA or the next Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux in the NHL. The NFL has stars notice the multiple not just one star and look at how strong the league is money wise. That is what the IRL needs to do. Market many drivers equally and have them be the drivers who are winning multiple races and are almost always up front. I live in VA and in years past remember hearing radio ads for Richmond and hearing about 20 seconds of the 30 second ad talking about Danica racing at the track and they mentioned Marco and one other driver at the end. How about talking about Dixion Kannan or Wheldon?

3. With all time they spend following Danica in the middle of the pack in no battle for position at all they miss position battles in the front that real race fans would rater see then see and hear Danica complain about how her car is not handeling well.... again.

[MDS]

To be fair, her win was against most of the sharp end of the season points standings. Couldn't have been too bad.

This is true, but I think that if Oriol were there, I think he would have done the same thing, and perhaps won.

And that's something we can never know for sure, but if there 26 cars there, odds are increased their would have been a caution in the last fuel run and took the win away from her.

Honestly I don't think she'll get a podium the rest of the year.

[NickFalzone]

Oriol has run well a few times this season, but to say that he is a threat to win an oval is really overstating his performance and their current equipment. Danica beat all the best oval drivers at Motegi, end of story. Yes, she is on lots of magazine covers and the announcers talk about her too much. She still drives pretty well.

[Wilf]

There have been 15 posts to this thread in the last 10 hours. Any other thread come close?

Is she a world beater? Duh! NO!

Is the trophy in her trophy case? YES (although it is awaiting an asterisk to be engraved by MDS)

Do the announcers spend too much time talking and showing her. YES, but only because they are too insecure to believe the race is what most people tune in to see. This is the worst season ever for the broadcast team both for the annnouncers as well as the production team.

[xtlm]

There have been 15 posts to this thread in the last 10 hours. Any other thread come close?


well, she gets us talking so....how can she be bad?

[Bruce D]

Hmm, sex doesn't sell and turns women away from it? Um, clearly this woman hasn't studied the music industry! I mean, 90% of them can't sing anymore, they copy old songs, the only thing they've got going is their looks and how much clothes they take off. Now lets take someone like Rhianna for example - she clearly uses sex to sell albums, I hate her cos she can't sing to save her life, but my wife and female friends loves her music and clearly aren't bothered by what she does to sell it. This woman should step outside the lab for a little while...

[!!WALDO!!]

Been waiting on this.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[call_me_andrew]

Last time I checked, there's no such thing as bad publicity.


Some say if she spent more time behind the wheel and less time taking her clothes off in front of the camera she would be a better driver.

Maybe A.J. Foyt should make a sex tape.

[Mr Peppermill]

Since her win at motegi, the Danica haters has really stepped up their game.

They must feel real threatened those male chauvinist morons.

[El Sween]

So if you don't like Danica and your a man that makes you a chauvinist moron does it?

So, in my case I don't really like Danica but I am a huge fan of Katherine Legge, Susie Stoddart and Ashley Force where does that leave me?

[beachbum]

Since her win at motegi, the Danica haters has really stepped up their game.

They must feel real threatened those male chauvinist morons.
Stereotypes are interesting. I also wonder why the Danica fans find they have to tag anyone who doesn't fall all over her with derogatory tags like haters, morons, etc. I don't like DP, but my dislike is not as much as my wife's. So I guess she is a male chauvinist moron.

My wife raced professionally for a couple years and saw real chauvinism in action. One race official told her to her face in front of her fellow racers that women shouldn't be allowed to race, that they should stay in the kitchen and bedroom and have babies. The reaction of the other racers (all male) was almost violent as they came to her support. The race director issued a personal apology, and the offensive official was never seen at a track again. She almost never faced such attitudes from another pro, but did get it from sponsors and sometimes so-called fans. Many still clung to female stereotypes. At a TV shoot, the first shot the director wanted was one of her unzipping her uniform. So much for being treated as a racer.

The male chauvinist attitude that has some fans drooling all over the TV screen every time they show a swim suit shot is little different in my mind. If DP wasn't good looking or didn't have a strong publicity machine, how far would she have advanced?

IMHO, she has a lot of raw talent. That should be obvious to anyone who watches her drive. She is also an attractive spokesperson for a sponsor. That is important for any driver, male or female, in today's market driven world. But a lot of young racers have the same basic raw ingredients. The problem as I see it is that she hasn't built on those talents to improve herself as a racer. On the track, she usually underperformes her talent. When she has tried other types of cars like sports cars, she hasn't been very good. And her attitude is really crappy as she seems to believe the hype and behaves like some little prima-donna. If you had a daughter, is that the type of person you would have her worship as a role model? I hope not.

But DP has worked hard to build on the celebrity status and the Danica franchise. She knows that will drag in some support and fans. But what has she done to build Danica the racer? At some point, more people in racing will get tired of the attitude, her looks will fade, and a fickle public will find another celebrity. Where is her career then?

She also has a history of throwing people under the bus and blaming "anyone else" for her issues. Rahal spent a lot of money and personal goodwill to revive her career and help her move back up the ladder. And how did she treat him? Why does she seem to always have a new race engineer every year? Why does she have a personal PR person watching her every move?

What I find interesting, and the article cited in this thread alludes to it, is how the general public gives people perceived as celebrities various attributes that may or may not be supported by real facts and actions. Some of the claims made about Danica (pro and con) have little basis in reality. While that is true for other drivers, in the end racing is a performance based entertainment business. IHMO what grates some is her "performance" out of the car seems to carry a lot more weight that her results in the car.

This male chauvinist moron is done now - blast away. By the way, I agree with El Sween. Legge, Stoddart, Force are real racers, and I am a huge fan of all of them, as well as any racer who beats the odds through determination and performance on track

[champcarray]

The study's findings are real, not just made up. I know that my wife is deeply offended by Danica's sexed-up marketing machine. And as the father of a young female athlete (one of the few girls playing Little League baseball in our town), I'm not enthralled either. I understand that Danica enjoys modelling, but it does impact the image of our sport.

[Mr Peppermill]

The study's findings are real, not just made up. I know that my wife is deeply offended by Danica's sexed-up marketing machine. And as the father of a young female athlete (one of the few girls playing Little League baseball in our town), I'm not enthralled either. I understand that Danica enjoys modelling, but it does impact the image of our sport.

Yeh, you're right, she's really, really bad for the sport.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/brennan/2008-04-23-Brennan_N.htm

[beachbum]

Yeh, you're right, she's really, really bad for the sport.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/brennan/2008-04-23-Brennan_N.htmNo one denies Danica has raised awareness. Some even think her little princess attitude is OK as it is a sign of toughness. IMHO it is a sign of something else.

But Danica was hardly the only little girl to race go karts against the boys and win. Sarah Fisher did as well (and had a better record in karting) and she and other women like Erin Crocker beat the men at the big boys games. They just didn't get the hype and press or play up the stereotypes. As champcarray puts it, Danica!'s methods to get attention do impact the image of women in sports. Do you really think mothers and fathers everywhere are going to suggest to their daughters that an athlete that used provocative photos and modeling to get ahead in sports, and often behaves like a spoiled celebrity, is a great role model?

A good example of how the sex angle can backfire is Erin Crocker. She was moving in racing up until her relationship with Evernham became news. Her career may be over now. If you play that card, the edge is very narrow between offending fans, teams, and sponsors, and playing off the celebrity fantasies of others to stay popular. The fact that the Helmet has evoked such strong feelings among fans should be a warning sign. When something breaks the fantasy, the tide of popularity can turn in a hurry. Just check out the "cave" on talkback on Indycar.com. No other driver has caused that level of controversy.

[MDS]

As much as I think she's overrated she's still good for the sport. She's a polarizing figure and that draws in people. Most people either want to see her succeed or fail, very few people familer with the sport a neutral on her.

You can argue about too much marketing support flowing to her. She's said herself the league is too focused on promoting her and not the other drivers, so I think almost everyone outside of league management agrees on that.

Also, I do think her draw is overrated. I do think a lot people intitally tuned in to watch her, and I think she generates a good bit of ticket sales, but I think most of her "fans" don't actually ever watch a race. One of my bosses likes Danica because she's "strong woman," and supports women breaking barriers, but she's never watched even a part of a race. I think that's the awareness Danica generates more than anything else. People who don't like or watch racing support her because she's the first competitive woman in a man's sport, but that doesn't translate into a Tiger-esque ratings effect.

[F1boat]

I like her and find nothing wrong that she is proud with her beauty. Look what Beckham is doing, it is no different.

[icehammer97]

I like her and find nothing wrong that she is proud with her beauty. Look what Beckham is doing, it is no different.

The difference is Beckham is also known for being one of the best players at one point in time.

Also with the smaller field argument. It is not an argument of could Servia or some other CC driver win the race which they could have if they did the same fuel as Danica. But the biggest thing is more cars more traffic. More traffic the harder it is on a driver and the more your car needs to be good. Danica is never good in traffic and always is complaining that her car is undrivable. It seems like every race she is "just trying to keep in on the track" or "trying to save the front tires" and look in contrast to guys who make maybe one change per race. J. Andretti has not touched his car yet in Iowa and that is in a car that is not even close to as advanced as probably every car in the race. Put Danica in that car she would be in the back of the pack every race.

[coogmaster]

Her godaddy.com advertising is ridicoluous, with the girl driving the go carts. I know its a petty thing, but she's pretty much promoting that female athletes can 'get ahead' of their male counterparts by stuffing them into the dirt at every race.

[beachbum]

It is interesting that icehammer97 mentions the "trying to save the front tires" issue. Both on the radio coverage by Hamilton and and in print, it is often mentioned she saws the wheel like she is driving a sprint car (dirt car). Is is very easy to see in the in-car shots when she is compared to others. That is a fine way to burn up the front tires, leading to the regular "its understeering" complaint. What is odd is that she was praised for her smoothness when she ran FF in England.

By the way, the behavior of Beckham and his wife isn't always viewed as positive. I have a niece who is a soccer fanatic (and very good high school goalie) who was a Beckham fan. The important word is "was". She is a bit turned off by their recent behavior. The fickle world of fame.

[icehammer97]

Now Dixon and Carpenter are talking about how she is a menace on the track and saying she is a constant blocker. Seems that the others are tired of her antics on the track and it can't be too long before they start talking about how the IRL over markets her.

[F1boat]

IMO that might be a strategy from the IRL, to create controversy between drivers.

[Zsolt]

I've watched the CHAMP CAR Long Beach Grand Prix & it was obvious that the network, etc...hardly cared for the race. I'm still trying to find a copy of that race w/out the 10 min. Danacan't interview that ruined the end of the race for me & many more. So, I watched the St. Pete race & Indy.....i'm sick of her already. I hope she retires. I'm not meaning to offend anyone cause i'm sick of the NE Patriots, Dallas Cowboys, LA Lakers...too.

I HATE HER.

/Nice circle in Iowa.
//Manning, you can lift weights, ya know?

[Zsolt]

By the way, if Danaca is luring viewers in, why do the ratings still suck?

/Yeah, yeah, CC's did too.

[beachbum]

By the way, if Danaca is luring viewers in, why do the ratings still suck?

/Yeah, yeah, CC's did too.Suck is a relative term. Compared to NASCAR, or the Patriots, yup they suck as do most other motor sports. Compared to where they were last year, they are getting better. I doubt the Helmet impacts overall ratings much either way.

[Rogelio]

What does Danica offer the ICS? Well, a lot of popularity. But after so many years, she has won one race. Is that something to admire? The series promotes the hell out of her and not to mention she joined a top team, and she still does not dominate. I really doubt she ever will be all that she was built up to be.

For me personally, Danica Mania is nothing short of an embarassment. Is she good? Yes. However, we all know that 1/2, if not 3/4 of the drivers are better than her if given the same equipment.

[Lemmy-Boy]

All the haters on this board can whine and cry till the cows come home. In the end, it's all about making Money. With DP, she's brought money and media attention to AOWR, a sport that was becoming a minor footnote in sport pages of every newspaper around the world.

In the end, any publicity is good publicty. Plus, DP can laugh all the way to the bank due to her notoriety.

Oh yes, she's super hot as well.

[beachbum]

All the haters on this board can whine and cry till the cows come home. In the end, it's all about making Money. With DP, she's brought money and media attention to AOWR, a sport that was becoming a minor footnote in sport pages of every newspaper around the world.

In the end, any publicity is good publicty. Plus, DP can laugh all the way to the bank due to her notoriety.

Oh yes, she's super hot as well.Ok, lets look at those arguments. Yes, it is all about money, and yes she did help bring serious sponsorship to her team. Yes she brought media attention, but many are starting to wonder if that translated into butts in the seats or eyes on the tube. There isn't much factual evidence either way. Most racers like the bucks, but would race for free, because money and celebrity aren't the reasons they race. Often the Helmet gives a strong impression that celebrity and money are more important that her performance on track.

I like your choice of the word "notoriety". Without a doubt she has that, but is it because she can drive, or because she has a great publicity machine and an almost mythical following? Most really successful people would easily trade notoriety for respect.

"any publicity is good publicty" Thats a good one. Well, if it is positive or neutral I would certainly agree. But when you are living off "notoriety" and a mythology built by publicity, negative publicity can be very damaging impacts on the celebrity status and tarnish the "star". Take Brittany Spears. Her "career" as a teen idol appears finished and now she is tabloid fodder and a bit of a joke. Her corporate sponsors disappeared. It didn't take that much. The Helmet is very polarizing and brings out strong opinions. If the balance tips to the negative, sponsors notice. Take away the money and hype, and why is she there?

She is hot? In the eye of the beholder. I personally am not into the 12 year old boy look. IMHO, beauty is more than skin deep, and on a behavior level, she can be pretty ugly.

I don't hate Danica! I just don't think she deserves the hype and celebrity status. IMHO, she is NOT the "real deal". She played the sex card and played it well, and it got her into the game. Can that single card keep her playing, or does she need to deal up a strong hand of results? Ana Beatriz, Katherine Legge, and even Fisher are the "real deals".

I don't think she hurts the IRL, but she is hurting her racing career. If there is one currency that means much more than anything else inside racing, it is respect. Respect from the other drivers, from her team, and from the fans. Rick Mears had that, as do drivers like Dixon, Kannan, and many others. The fact that she has been called out publically by other drivers, is a sign that their respect is slipping. I know for a fact that many in her team wouldn't include respect in any opinion of her, and based on the huge volume of negative postings by fans, there is a growing legion of fans who don't respect her either. Lose respect in racing, and your career is in serious trouble. That star can fall like a shooting star.

If you want to worship her as a celebrity, thats ok. Just don't expect that everyone else has to share that opinion. I happen to agree with Rogelio, Danica Mania is nothing short of an embarrassment, especially to young racers of any gender trying to break into the big times. It sends a message that results are less important than hype, perception, and building a "fan club".

[indycool]

Is this still going on every race about pro-Danica or con-Danica? Geez, get over it.

1. She has bared no private parts in public or on display, so what she's done is NOT pornographic, which some might consider Amanda Beard's photos in Playboy.

2. Danicamania is something that has happened by itself and grown. It's not the IRL that's shoving Danica down everyone's throat. She IS popular with the rank-and-file and her publicity/marketing train has gone down the track with her phone ringing, not her ringing someone else's.

3. The so-called "study" that started this thread was done by a female sports psychologist and interviewed 70-plus people, which is hardly scientific....particularly about racing in Minnesota, where the only major track is Brainerd. Anybody who gives that "study" any credence at all, well, do anything you can to raise your IQ.

4. She showed up and raced and led Indy and some snuffled she hadn't won a race. Now she's won a race but Oriol Servia wasn't there, so that doesn't count. What's next?

[Jag_Warrior]

So if you don't like Danica and your a man that makes you a chauvinist moron does it?

Now you're catching on. It's in the Group & Identity Politics Manual, page 127: "Only members of a protected group may criticize members of said group."


So, in my case I don't really like Danica but I am a huge fan of Katherine Legge, Susie Stoddart and Ashley Force where does that leave me?

Doesn't matter. Ya gotta like Danica too. During the Group & Identity Offenses trial, you'll get some brownie points for being a fan of Legge, Stoddart and Force. But you'll still be convicted of being a male chauvinist moron, as there are no exceptions to this rule of law. :D

I've posted in political and racing forums and groups since the Compuserve days. It seems that times haven't changed so much. Whenever someone, who has a weak argument, gets stuck, they begin slinging arrows of sexism, racism or anti-semitism. Charges of sexism are a dime a dozen these days. People who can't even spell misogyny use the term to death, because it floats whatever ***** they have in the bowl.

[pits4me]

1. She has bared no private parts in public or on display, so what she's done is NOT pornographic, which some might consider Amanda Beard's photos in Playboy.


Yes IC, its all about perception. She's just not as modest as Katherine Legge, Simona De Silvestro or Ashley Force. DP was the only one that threw some sensual photo's out there to spark momentum in her racing career. Amanda Beard is just trying to cash in while Olympic swimming is back on the scene. Hardly relevant.




2. Danicamania is something that has happened by itself and grown. It's not the IRL that's shoving Danica down everyone's throat. She IS popular with the rank-and-file and her publicity/marketing train has gone down the track with her phone ringing, not her ringing someone else's.

SURE.... Not the IRL, its their TV partners at ESPN-ABC that have been forcefeeding us Danica Patrick since she first signed with Rahal.



3. The so-called "study" that started this thread was done by a female sports psychologist and interviewed 70-plus people, which is hardly scientific....particularly about racing in Minnesota, where the only major track is Brainerd. Anybody who gives that "study" any credence at all, well, do anything you can to raise your IQ.

Every study is going to be weighted to an agenda. Happens in the media and politics every day. Rokeach -- Mediated Experience - circa 1976.



4. She showed up and raced and led Indy and some snuffled she hadn't won a race. Now she's won a race but Oriol Servia wasn't there, so that doesn't count. What's next?

A win is a win is a win. Even if she did get a "free pass." If Servia were in comparable equipment to her, she'd be looking at his rear axle most of the time. Even if she does have a slight weight/HP advantage.

[indycool]

1. So, Amanda Beard gets a free pass for baring all and DP doesn't for baring what any other female would on a beach. Ohhhhhh-KAY.

2. No, it's several things. It's Danica herself, leading the Indianapolis 500 with seven laps to go. Danica talking to the media. Danica being a girl. Danica signing autographs. Danica running up front. Everyone wondering when Danica was going to win one. Danica winning one. All those things BUILT the TV and media and public interest, which carried the "mania" further.

3. That study sure was.

4. You oughta add an IMO to that.

[indycool]

1. So, Amanda Beard gets a free pass for baring all and DP doesn't for baring what any other female would on a beach. Ohhhhhh-KAY.

2. No, it's several things. It's Danica herself, leading the Indianapolis 500 with seven laps to go. Danica talking to the media. Danica being a girl. Danica signing autographs. Danica running up front. Everyone wondering when Danica was going to win one. Danica winning one. All those things BUILT the TV and media and public interest, which carried the "mania" further.

3. That study sure was.

4. You oughta add an IMO to that.

[Jag_Warrior]

A win is a win is a win.

Whatever one thinks of Danica (or her media handlers), that statement speaks volumes. In order to win, you first have to be in a position to win... and she did that.

What comes after is whether Danica's fans will push her "greatness" as a racing car driver... or as a female racing car driver. Danica's victory in Japan was the first professional automobile racing win of her life. While women like Angelle Sampey, Shirley Muldowney, Erin Crocker, Sarah Fisher, Shawna Robinson and Michele Mouton all have either multiple professional wins or championships, Danica has this as her sole professional automobile racing victory (other than the Long Beach Pro-Am class victory).

So going back to the original poster, I don't know. But with the information in Beachbum's post, I'd say there is definitely a danger in the IRL (or its TV partner) putting all of its eggs in one basket... especially when the hype from that basket does not meet with on track results.

As Pits said, a win is a win is a win. But if it's the only one you've ever gotten, at what point do you risk wearing the overhyped/overrated tag? And at what point does the IRL (or ABC/ESPN) begin seriously promoting drivers who've been winning for a decade plus?

[Jag_Warrior]

1. So, Amanda Beard gets a free pass for baring all and DP doesn't for baring what any other female would on a beach. Ohhhhhh-KAY.

You're a bad influence! I honestly had no earthly idea who Amanda Beard was. So I typed her name into Google Images. :eek:

Kinda rough in the face dept., but she certainly is "fit", isn't she? ;)

[beachbum]

What does Amanda Beard have to do with anything? So she posed in Playboy (if you hadn't mentioned it, I never would have known). She is an Olympic and World Champion and if she chose to start modeling after her swimming career was over, big deal. Just because she also posed for Sports Illustrated and drove in the Toyota Celebrity race doesn't mean she can be equated with Danica!

[indycool]

The point was that there's no big yank on Beard posing WITHOUT clothes on the appropriate private places while others bash Patrick when she wears clothes ON them, and both are athletes.

Glad I entertained you, Jag.

[weeflyonthewall]

Didn't DP do her spread on FHM before she was most peoples radar? I thought Beard was an accomplished athlete with partial celebrity status already. Isn't that the point some are trying to make here? The DP thing is way over the top compared to the press other IRL drivers get. Less than a year ago there were several drivers complaining about taking a back seat to her at autograph sessions. Maybe Scott Goodyear is mesmerized by the wee lass. Does he keep extra copies of FHM around for good measure?

[indycool]

Yes, she did the FHM spread when she was running Atlantics. Like it or not, people want to follow her and know what she's doing because she has made history for women in Indy cars. There are some who would still grump about her if she won 10 Indianapolis 500s. A lot of male drivers have never led at Indy. A lot of male drivers haven't won an Indycar race. A lot of male drivers don't run steadily in the top 10. Her merchandise trailer does a fine business.

For various reasons, people like and dislike different drivers. And baseball players. And football players. And golfers. Guess Danica's mag appearances are reason enough for some to decide they don't like her. Others do.

[weeflyonthewall]

Fans like athletes with personality and not so much arrogance (acts like the world owes her a big one). If she kept her trap shut and quit whining every race maybe she wouldn't turn off so many of us.

[indycool]

Many?

[Jag_Warrior]

There are some who would still grump about her if she won 10 Indianapolis 500s.

For various reasons, people like and dislike different drivers. And baseball players. And football players. And golfers. Guess Danica's mag appearances are reason enough for some to decide they don't like her. Others do.

You're absolutely right. People like and dislike drivers for various reasons. After he crashed into Villeneuve, I jumped off the Michael Schumacher/Ferrari bandwagon. I'd been a fan of Ferrari since the mid 70's. But that one dirty move by their top driver made me look elsewhere. So I didn't like him anymore. He won WDC after WDC, and I still didn't like him. But now, I did, and do respect him for his talents.

If Danica wins even one Indy 500, much less ten, I'd have to give her some respect. The more she wins, the more respect she would be due. I still might not like her, but she would be due the respect earned when one wins. But if you're a supposed top driver, and you're on a top team (one of three that tends to win all IRL races), you should be winning, IMO. If you're not, that suggests to me that the driver is overhyped, if not overrated. If she has to rely on her gender to make it appear that she is an accomplished driver, that actually causes me to respect her less. In that case, I guess Lewis Hamilton won the "Black WDC" last year and Brandon Bernstein wrapped up the "Jewish Top Fuel" title. Congrats, guys! :)

[beachbum]

Many?Yes, many. She is a polarizing personality. Very few people seem to be neutral in their opinions.


A lot of male drivers.... That's funny. Very few male drivers posed semi-nude to get attention when their career floundered or hired a high profile sports marketing firm just to get into Formula Ford after Karts. Most actually developed a full racing resume that consisted of a lot more than one good result, press releases, and magazine pictures. They had wide ranging experience, including wins and championships at lower levels. As did all of the female racers mentioned previously by Jag_Warrior.

A common question asked by young racers (male or female) is how do I get to the top or get a chance. The answer once was to race anything and everything, get wins, contend for championships, develop your racing skills, make yourself visible, present a good image to the corporate sponsors, work well with your teams, be persistent, and make connections in the racing community. Then you look around and see Danica! in one of the best cars in the IRL with limited previous racing experience, a handful of decent results, no wins, no championships, a very abrasive personality, a marketing machine, and a willingness to play off her sexuality. I guess that tells the young racers to hire a sports marketing firm, a makeup artist, and forget the driver coach. If you can convince enough people you are great, the manufactured fantasy will propel your career far more than driving talent. Without a couple mentors along the way (Rahal primarily), Danica! would be a footnote.

I have known a number of female professional racers over the years, and all wanted to be judged on their ability on the track, not the fact they are female. One I know very well is very offended at the methods used by the Helmet to get ahead and is not impressed by her driving abilities. She is one of your "many?"

[indycool]

Fine. Whatever you consider "many" is, although if you throw all the forums together, you have far less people than attend one race, so there better be some outside of cyberspace for "many" to be very significant.

When you talk about "polarizing," are you saying a Dale Earnhardt wasn't? When you talk about drivers who don't belong, are you talking about a Hiro Matsu-a, who made the field at Indy when the Penske team didn't? Or Lyn St. James, who outqualified both Nigel Mansell and Mario Andretti one year at Indy?

IMO, Jag has the most honest answer about how feelings are developed and how people pick and choose who they like and don't like.

I remember as a kid, I was at a White Sox-Tigers game in Chicago and Tiger pitcher Frank Lary hit two home runs and pitched a shutout. I was, as always, outside the locker room door with my autograph book. When Lary came out, he brushed me aside after that good of a day. To this day, I don't know Frank Lary or know if he's even still alive. But I think he's a jerk. And that was over 40 years ago.

[pits4me]

Many?

You'd be surprised what you learn outside your little cubicle. Just talk to the people where she makes public appearances on behalf of sponsors.

[indycool]

Oh, I've heard that talk, too......that isn't the MASSES, though. I don't doubt that she can be a handful.

[pits4me]

Oh, I've heard that talk, too......that isn't the MASSES, though. I don't doubt that she can be a handful.

Especially on pit lane.

[anthonyvop]

When you talk about "polarizing," are you saying a Dale Earnhardt wasn't? .

Yes he was. Some said he was a dirty driver. Some said he cheated. SOme said he was a jerk.

Nobody(At least with half a brain) questioned his talent as a driver. Nobody could argue that he wasn't among the best out there.

You can't say that about Danica.

[harvick#1]

You're absolutely right. People like and dislike drivers for various reasons. After he crashed into Villeneuve, I jumped off the Michael Schumacher/Ferrari bandwagon. I'd been a fan of Ferrari since the mid 70's. But that one dirty move by their top driver made me look elsewhere. So I didn't like him anymore. He won WDC after WDC, and I still didn't like him. But now, I did, and do respect him for his talents.

If Danica wins even one Indy 500, much less ten, I'd have to give her some respect. The more she wins, the more respect she would be due. I still might not like her, but she would be due the respect earned when one wins. But if you're a supposed top driver, and you're on a top team (one of three that tends to win all IRL races), you should be winning, IMO. If you're not, that suggests to me that the driver is overhyped, if not overrated. If she has to rely on her gender to make it appear that she is an accomplished driver, that actually causes me to respect her less. In that case, I guess Lewis Hamilton won the "Black WDC" last year and Brandon Bernstein wrapped up the "Jewish Top Fuel" title. Congrats, guys! :)

:up:

everyones got their own opinions, why I dislike her is from her calling out every driver for single mistakes but then rarely ever takes responsibility. If Sarah Fisher was running full-time in a competitive car, Danica would lose alot of fan interest, I like Sarah because she is a racer and lives to race. she is genuine and very professional on the track and in interviews, she showed what Indy is really like, I felt so bad that she was crashed out for something that she wasn't even involved, while Danica throws a tamtrum for racing down pitroad and getting collected with Ryan. there are far more classier female drivers out here today, Legge, Fisher, Halliday, Snetterton(sp) to name a few. every sport has there punk. but for Danica fans keep saying the only reason she gets attacked is because shes won a race and has led at Indy because of staying on the track while the leaders pitted. She is a average driver in the top equipment in the IRL, IMO she never has what it takes when its time to put the hammer down when the money is on the table. before I get attacked by the Danica fans, let me just say I'm not a sexiest, I'm just not a Danica fan due to her respect towards the other drivers and her actions in interviews

[speeddurango]

So what on earth is this article talking about? Only by bringing up negative sides of anything is not a proper argumentation at all.

[ShiftingGears]

So what on earth is this article talking about? Only by bringing up negative sides of anything is not a proper argumentation at all.

If you want serious journalism, AR1 is not for you.

[garyshell]

So what on earth is this article talking about? Only by bringing up negative sides of anything is not a proper argumentation at all.


http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm


The Cast (in order of appearance.)
M= Man looking for an argument
R= Receptionist
Q= Abuser
A= Arguer (John Cleese)
C= Complainer (Eric Idle)
H= Head Hitter

M: Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.
R: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?
M: No, I haven't, this is my first time.
R: I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?
M: Well, what is the cost?
R: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.
M: Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.
R: Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment.
Pause
R: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.
Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.
M: Thank you.

(Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT?
M: Well, I was told outside that...
Q: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!
M: What?
Q: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!
M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q: Not at all.
M: Thank You.
(Under his breath) Stupid git!!


Sorry I just couldn't resist the temptation!

Gary

[mlj]

If you want serious journalism, AR1 is not for you.

Duh, this was not written by the AR1 staff, only reported by them. Check out the source on my initial posting