Two drivers better than Hamilton - Ecclestone [Archive]

CNR

18th June 2008, 03:27

http://www.homeofsport.com/f1/news/item.aspx?id=22278

At least two of Lewis Hamilton's key rivals would beat the 23-year-old British driver in the same car.
That is the belief of F1 chief executive Bernie Ecclestone, who told The Times newspaper that he ranks former double world champion Fernando Alonso as the best current driver on the grid.
The F1 supremo also rates Robert Kubica, the Canadian grand prix winner and new championship leader, very highly.
"If you saw him in a McLaren or a Ferrari, I think I'd put my money on him blowing away Hamilton," Ecclestone said.

Roamy

18th June 2008, 03:35

well he could be right even though he can't see by his wife's ass

ioan

18th June 2008, 10:03

The old bugger and his stupid mind games. Next day he'll say he was misquoted and in fact Lewy is the best!

ArrowsFA1

18th June 2008, 10:30

The old bugger and his stupid mind games. Next day he'll say he was misquoted and in fact Lewy is the best!
Do you agree with him?

thompp

18th June 2008, 10:43

Surely as manager of F1 he should be remaining impartial..?

ioan

18th June 2008, 11:23

Surely as manager of F1 he should be remaining impartial..?

He's impartial to them, only not impartial to himself. DO you think he really cares who's better than Lewy on the track?! No way! He only cares to promote the next one to attract more fans and more money, be it a better driver or not.

You will find that Bernie changes his views on drivers very very often, based on his economic needs! ;)

18th June 2008, 11:25

Sounds about right. I'd add Kimi to that list who could beat him too.

ArrowsFA1

18th June 2008, 11:32

You will find that Bernie changes his views on drivers very very often, based on his economic needs!
But you can't bring yourself to say you agree with him :D :p

ioan

18th June 2008, 11:39

But you can't bring yourself to say you agree with him :D :p

Why should I agree with him? In fact I believe there are more than 2 drivers better than him! :p :

maxu05

18th June 2008, 12:52

All I can add is, "What a Twat"

jens

18th June 2008, 13:12

Generally no reason to take such statements too seriously - probably meant just to create some debate among fans on days, when there is no racing. :p :

555-04Q2

18th June 2008, 13:24

TMorel

18th June 2008, 16:35

Or it could be seen as an attack on Kimi and Felipe as they don't even make it into his list.

Seriously, I dunno why anyone pays attention to these sorts of comments.
The moment Robert makes a silly mistake then Bernie will be praising Massa or whoever happens to be flavour of the day

93VTEC

18th June 2008, 17:07

Who ever said BE knew anything about racing. I ignore most of his comments.

trumperZ06

18th June 2008, 17:29

People forget that Hamilton is only in his second season and running with the big guns on a regular basis on the WDC points table. He has been phenomenal in F1 so far. Wait till he has a few seasons under him. He is going to come an F1 legend.

:D Yep... LH is likely to challenge many of Schuey's records.

Hamilton has shown flashes of Great Racecraft along with being gifted with excellent car control.

Hopefully, as he matures... he will eliminate some of those bone-head mistakes.

Tazio

18th June 2008, 17:38

Is there another major profesional sport where the principal invents controversy?
This type of behavior is disraceful IMO

FIA

18th June 2008, 18:04

I personally would say tat Kubica is probably even with Lewis, Fernando is a double world campion, but in terms of naturl ability, Lewis wins.

But what about Kimi?

AJP

18th June 2008, 18:26

Why should I agree with him? In fact I believe there are more than 2 drivers better than him! :p :

care to name them?

ioan

18th June 2008, 18:59

care to name them?

KR, FM, FA, NR, RK, NH, AS that's already 6 of them. I believe that these guys would beat him in equal neutral equipment.

keysersoze

18th June 2008, 21:08

Who ever said BE knew anything about racing. I ignore most of his comments.

I'd say his racing knowledge is pretty redoubtable. He's been a team owner at least once (Brabham, when they were winning in the early 80s).

F1boat

18th June 2008, 22:02

Mad_Hatter

18th June 2008, 23:31

Does the fact that Alonso has 2 WDC overshadow the fact Hamilton scored more points than FA last season?

Valve Bounce

19th June 2008, 00:59

But you can't bring yourself to say you agree with him :D :p

I agree that Bernie is a greedy piece of human biproduct waste.

Tazio

19th June 2008, 02:06

I agree that Bernie is a greedy piece of human biproduct waste. :up:

555-04Q2

19th June 2008, 09:28

Kubica is in his second full season.

Yes :up: but he does not have anywhere near Hamiltons record yet. Hamilton has achieved more in only 20 odd races than 90% of F1 drivers achieve over an entire career. I'm sure Kubica's record will improve as BMW improves, but at the moment, Hamilton has had a blistering start to his career, albeit in a pretty good car.

555-04Q2

19th June 2008, 09:31

Does the fact that Alonso has 2 WDC overshadow the fact Hamilton scored more points than FA last season?

I found it amazing that LH managed to fight with, equal and beat a 2 X WDC like FA in his rookie year. It was a great achievement and hopefully a sign of great things to come :up:

Dave B

19th June 2008, 09:36

To be honest we'll never know unless all the drivers have equal machinery. The best driver might be languishing at the back of the grid, saddled with a crap car and unable to show their real talent.

That said, winning a WDC in any car other than the best is obviously a great feat, and the only current driver to have done so is Alonso. In any objective measure of success, he's the "best" driver on the grid, but the word "best" is more subjective than that.

ArrowsFA1

19th June 2008, 09:38

It is amazing how quickly reputations are made and torn down in F1. It's almost as if Hamilton is now yesterday's man, and Kubica has suddenly made it to the head of the queue with his win. Fortunately the drivers themselves are a bit more level headed, but it's all good fun :D

Knock-on

19th June 2008, 09:44

KR, FM, FA, NR, RK, NH, AS that's already 6 of them. I believe that these guys would beat him in equal neutral equipment.

I surprised myself by agreeing with you earlier on in the thread and then you return to normal. Phew!!!!

By the way, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7? Must be that English Language problem again :D

:laugh:

ioan

19th June 2008, 09:53

Yes :up: but he does not have anywhere near Hamiltons record yet. Hamilton has achieved more in only 20 odd races than 90% of F1 drivers achieve over an entire career. I'm sure Kubica's record will improve as BMW improves, but at the moment, Hamilton has had a blistering start to his career, albeit in a pretty good car.

JV had an equally good start, in the best car too, like Lewy he almost won the first season, and he won his second season (not sure Lewy will make it though).

And that was it. Being in the best car on the grid sure makes you look good, add to that the spying and cheating and you have a clue as to why he was so good compared to others.
Let's wait 10 years before painting Lewy as one of the F1 greats.

ioan

19th June 2008, 09:57

I surprised myself by agreeing with you earlier on in the thread and then you return to normal. Phew!!!!

By the way, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7? Must be that English Language problem again :D

:laugh:

I suppose it's the only Language you speak, and counting to 7 is a already a great feat for you! :p :

If you don't agree with me, why don't you try to explain why is that, instead of cheap language related shots?! :rolleyes:

ShiftingGears

19th June 2008, 10:01

KR, FM, FA, NR, RK, NH, AS that's already 6 of them. I believe that these guys would beat him in equal neutral equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Formula_Three_Euroseries_season

Hamilton and Sutil were teammates. Hamilton 15 wins, Sutil 2.

Sutil can't even beat his own teammate at the moment.

So, care to justify that one?

ioan

19th June 2008, 10:16

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Formula_Three_Euroseries_season

Hamilton and Sutil were teammates. Hamilton 15 wins, Sutil 2.

Sutil can't even beat his own teammate at the moment.

So, care to justify that one?

Take a look at Sutil's race craft in an inferior car. And remind me who was running 4th in Monaco, Sutil or Fisi?!

As for the 15 wins against 2 wins, it's all nice but the full story is that Sutil was 2nd in the serious behind Hamilton.
And this was 3 years ago.
Talking about F1 Sutil and Vettel (add him to the list of drivers better than Lewy! :D ) showed very good race craft in difficult conditions compared to Hamilton who made clown of himself a few times in the best car on the grid.

ShiftingGears

19th June 2008, 10:24

Take a look at Sutil's race craft in an inferior car. And remind me who was running 4th in Monaco, Sutil or Fisi?!

Guess who, out of those two, did not have first or second gear at Monaco. The same driver who has beaten Sutil in nearly every other race this season. The same driver who was destroyed by Alonso at Renault.

As for the 15 wins against 2 wins, it's all nice but the full story is that Sutil was 2nd in the serious behind Hamilton.
Yes. The full story is that he was beaten quite convincingly, in identical machinery.

Talking about F1 Sutil and Vettel (add him to the list of drivers better than Lewy! :D ) showed very good race craft in difficult conditions compared to Hamilton who made clown of himself a few times in the best car on the grid.

Some people luck out on the strategies and some don't, and mistakes happen. Nowhere have you given any evidence to suggest that Sutil is a better driver.

ioan

19th June 2008, 11:58

Guess who, out of those two, did not have first or second gear at Monaco. The same driver who has beaten Sutil in nearly every other race this season. The same driver who was destroyed by Alonso at Renault.

Yes. The full story is that he was beaten quite convincingly, in identical machinery.

Some people luck out on the strategies and some don't, and mistakes happen. Nowhere have you given any evidence to suggest that Sutil is a better driver.

Given the machinery Sutil is driving better than Lewis. Also take a look at how much testing each of them is having, keep in mind that Lewis has hundreds of hours of simulators and so on at McLaren and Sutil has none of it.
Given all this getting up to 4th from the bottom of the grid is better than winning from 3rd.

I stand by my opinion, Lewy is made to look better by the machinery he's got.

jens

19th June 2008, 12:02

KR, FM, FA, NR, RK, NH, AS that's already 6 of them. I believe that these guys would beat him in equal neutral equipment.

Sutil has been getting beaten by Fisichella a bit too often and if he is considered as one of the bests, then you must think Fisi is The Dominant driver on the grid. About Monaco - Fisi drove actually quite well considering that he was missing 1st and 2nd gear. He was keeping the pace of the group, which consisted of a lot of drivers (incl Sutil). I think that in a healthy car Fisi would have at least matched Sutil's pace.

While you have criticized Hamilton for his mistakes, then others in your list have been no better. Rosberg has a habit of destroying front wings. Alonso, Räikkönen and Massa have made mistakes in two races in 2008, which is no less than what Hamilton has done. Hamilton doesn't have woes like Heidfeld - which means he is quick both in quali and in the race.

Btw, I'm surprised that you have mentioned so few drivers being better than LH. :p :

ShiftingGears

19th June 2008, 12:09

Given all this getting up to 4th from the bottom of the grid is better than winning from 3rd.

You don't justify opinions by giving other opinions.

I stand by my opinion, Lewy is made to look better by the machinery he's got.

Average drivers do not equal double world champion teammates in their debut year.

Garry Walker

19th June 2008, 12:46

KR, FM, FA, NR, RK, NH, AS that's already 6 of them. I believe that these guys would beat him in equal neutral equipment.

Sutil? :rotflmao: The guy is getting hammered by Fisichella at the moment, and last year there were times he didn`t dominate Yamamoto as he should have.
Monaco drive was a fluke and there could be no comparisons made between him and Fisi because Fisi had a serious gearbox problems. In all likelyhood, FI was simply very suited to the conditions.
Rosberg and Heidfeld are uncertain too, neither of them has shown anything particular this year.

I agree with the rest of your choices and would add Mark Webber.

If you added Vettel, it again shows your bias as he hasn`t shone against Bourdais and before he manages to clear him, he is not to be regarded as a top level driver.

Valve Bounce

19th June 2008, 13:24

I suppose if you stuck Sato in the McLaren, he'd be a world beater also.

ioan

19th June 2008, 13:44

I suppose if you stuck Sato in the McLaren, he'd be a world beater also.

As would be any of the drivers currently on the grid, but hey they are not the best thing since sliced bread! ;)

Valve Bounce

19th June 2008, 13:56

As would be any of the drivers currently on the grid, but hey they are not the best thing since sliced bread! ;)

Yeah!! but if you stuck sliced bread in the McLaren, it would end up as toast.

ioan

19th June 2008, 14:20

Yeah!! but if you stuck sliced bread in the McLaren, it would end up as toast.

:rotflmao: :up:

PetrolHead Rob

19th June 2008, 14:43

Surely it's Bernie's job to manage the season and not to comment about drivers.

Lewis is going to have a very difficult second season and will find things tough. He is facing a real challenge and we'll see what hee's made of.

19th June 2008, 14:51

JV had an equally good start, in the best car too, like Lewy he almost won the first season, and he won his second season (not sure Lewy will make it though).

And that was it. Being in the best car on the grid sure makes you look good, add to that the spying and cheating and you have a clue as to why he was so good compared to others.
Let's wait 10 years before painting Lewy as one of the F1 greats.

Amen to that.

You know people like Alonso are good when they are doing great things in crap cars, like the Minardi in 01 (which was an absolutely terrible car).

Hamiltons always had a silver spoon up his arse because of Ron, he's used to the best, used to the best machinery and the best computers doing all the work. Put him in an ol' Minardi and you'll see whos good and who's not.

jens

19th June 2008, 16:14

I'm wondering what is the purpose of statements like "put someone in the worst car and you'll see, what's his 'real' level". Well, surely he won't win. Surely he'll fight for positions at the back of the grid. Any driver would be forced to fight more or less at the back in the worst car. What would this prove? That he isn't any good?

Knock-on

19th June 2008, 22:00

Amen to that.

You know people like Alonso are good when they are doing great things in crap cars, like the Minardi in 01 (which was an absolutely terrible car).

Hamiltons always had a silver spoon up his arse because of Ron, he's used to the best, used to the best machinery and the best computers doing all the work. Put him in an ol' Minardi and you'll see whos good and who's not.

I know it's not a race car but when people try to compare Webber to Hamilton, I just can't help think of the star in a reasonably priced car.

Poor old ioan will never admit Lewis is anything other than a flukey driver that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a F1 car because Lewis is obviously so good and will be around for a long time. The last driver that set f1 alight was ioans hero and acknowledging Lewis is any good is impossible :laugh:

In his debut year, he just missed out on the WDC by the smallest margin and made the 2X WDC look avergae.

In his second year, again in machinary that is not the best out there, he is right up there again with another superstar of the future; Kubica.

Poor old Ferrari are clinging on with what is widely regarded to be the best car in the field and hindered by 2 drivers that are over rated to say the least. I would love to see what Lewis would do with a Ferrari just to see the look on some members faces :laugh:

Deny Lewis all you want boys but he's probably the class of the field and you know it :p : It doesn't really matter about all the hot air of the detractors because results talk and BS walks :p :

truefan72

19th June 2008, 23:41

...as my sig says!

Valve Bounce

20th June 2008, 00:03

This is degenerating into a "mine is better than yours" thread. I am sure if we all understood Spanish, and tuned in to a Spanish network, we'd find the same amount of enthusiasm about Fernando. Similarly, if we understood Japanese and tuned in to a Japanese network, we'd find the commentators hailing the next Japanese champion in Nakajima.

I think that both Alonso and Lewis are very good drivers, as are Kimi and Kube Man. Let's all cheer for Kube Man!!

ioan

20th June 2008, 00:11

Poor old Ferrari are clinging on with what is widely regarded to be the best car in the field and hindered by 2 drivers that are over rated to say the least. I would love to see what Lewis would do with a Ferrari just to see the look on some members faces :laugh:

Run into a few more drivers in the pit lane?! Spin off the pit road?! :rotflmao:

CNR

20th June 2008, 00:35

I know it's not a race car but when people try to compare Webber to Hamilton, I just can't help think of the star in a reasonably priced car.

could this have any thing to do with the way they drive road cars I have not heard of mark getting booked for speeding.

i think lewis was in the new car

Valve Bounce

20th June 2008, 00:37

could this have any thing to do with the way they drive road cars I have not heard of mark getting booked for speeding.

i think Lewis was in the new car

I thought he was referring to the Minardi. :p :

ioan

20th June 2008, 00:42

could this have any thing to do with the way they drive road cars I have not heard of mark getting booked for speeding.

i think lewis was in the new car

Well we knew he likes to go way over the speed limit on public roads, now we know that he doesn't know what a red light means!
Who gave this guy a driving license?! :p :

Tazio

20th June 2008, 00:50

I have very strong feeling about the skill of the current drivers.
We are far enough along to get a good feel for them.
I think my opinions may surprise some of the more enthusiastic LH fans.
However I refuse to discuss them on Bernie's Queue

CNR

20th June 2008, 00:51

Fernando Alonso is the Stig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH_5NoX0z1I&feature=related

Lewis Hamilton Top Gear Nov 2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa6ScKvB98E&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEiyWH-xW1g&feature=related
Mark Webber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Webber) was interviewed on 31 July (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_31) 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005) and at the conclusion of his lap, Clarkson presented him with an "I AM THE STIG" T-shirt.

gravity

20th June 2008, 01:12

tintop

20th June 2008, 03:32

I really am surprised that Bernie hasn't received a good beating by somebody that doesn't have anything to lose.

Valve Bounce

20th June 2008, 04:58

Alonso the stig in Ecclestone's thread? LOL
Anyway, many different drivers have been the stig already.

Any F1 team needs a good development driver to win races regularly. FA has proven he has what it takes. Was LH riding on FA's setups? At what point did FA stop sharing all his info with McLaren. Prob soon after deciding to move back to Renault. Will LH's (and McLaren's) performance suddenly drop at those same tracks again, like last year? Or will LH have gained enough experience to know how to develop the car? ie: Will McLaren be fast this year where they were slow last year?!

I am awaiting ioan's response with bated breath.

Was LH riding on FA's setups? don't be daft - it was Kimi's setups via e-mail. :D

At what point did FA stop sharing all his info with McLaren? Again, asking the obvious: when Coughlan got caught, silly!! :p :

:rotflmao:

Tazio

20th June 2008, 05:01

I really am surprised that Bernie hasn't received a good beating by somebody that doesn't have anything to lose.

No $h!t
It's probably the same reason Bush hasn't!
:rotflmao:

ioan

20th June 2008, 10:26

Was LH riding on FA's setups? don't be daft - it was Kimi's setups via e-mail. :D

At what point did FA stop sharing all his info with McLaren? Again, asking the obvious: when Coughlan got caught, silly!! :p :

:rotflmao:

:rotflmao:

SGWilko

20th June 2008, 11:23

a silver spoon up his arse .

Isn't that called filching or something? ;)

Valve Bounce

20th June 2008, 11:29

Isn't that called filching or something? ;)

Nah!! you have to use some small ferret like animal for that.

ArrowsFA1

20th June 2008, 11:30

Isn't that called filching or something? ;)
Filching I hear you say? Filching? That's a rather lovely manor house in Sussex with a great little kart track (http://www.campbellcircuit.co.uk/) :s mokin: :p

SGWilko

20th June 2008, 11:31

Nah!! you have to use some small ferret like animal for that.

You sure you're not talking about rabbit baiting (on an F1 infield - just to keep it (barely) on topic)?

Valve Bounce

20th June 2008, 11:31

Filching I hear you say? Filching? That's a rather lovely manor house in Sussex with a great little kart track (http://www.campbellcircuit.co.uk/) :s mokin: :p

I think he had a gerbil in mind - different game. :rotflmao:

SGWilko

20th June 2008, 11:39

Filching I hear you say? Filching? That's a rather lovely manor house in Sussex with a great little kart track (http://www.campbellcircuit.co.uk/) :s mokin: :p

Been there (near Eastbourne, right? - where the old folks go to die) back in the mid-nineties. Is the karting still going?

ArrowsFA1

20th June 2008, 11:42

Been there (near Eastbourne, right? - where the old folks go to die) back in the mid-nineties. Is the karting still going?
Think so. Not sure though. Haven't been for a while. But I am a resident of that "old folks" town :D

SGWilko

20th June 2008, 11:44

Think so. Not sure though. Haven't been for a while. But I am a resident of that "old folks" town :D

:D oops! ;)

ArrowsFA1

20th June 2008, 11:45

:laugh:

leopard

20th June 2008, 12:00

everyone is happy. :laugh: ;)

Knock-on

20th June 2008, 14:24

I think he had a gerbil in mind - different game. :rotflmao:

Armageddon!!!

Big Ben

20th June 2008, 14:56

Does the fact that Alonso has 2 WDC overshadow the fact Hamilton scored more points than FA last season?

no, it doesn't.... given the circumstances... and btw... even though it's just a detail: LH didn't score more points then Alonso last season.

Knock-on

20th June 2008, 15:04

no, it doesn't.... given the circumstances... and btw... even though it's just a detail: LH didn't score more points then Alonso last season.

Circumstances are subjective to your position but you are correct in the last part. Better to say that a rookie finished above the 2x World Champion in the same team.

That puts it in perspective.

Valve Bounce

20th June 2008, 15:43

Circumstances are subjective to your position but you are correct in the last part. Better to say that a rookie finished above the 2x World Champion in the same team.

That puts it in perspective.

Actually, Lewis Hamilton was most impressive as a rookie in F1 last year. One could argue that his performance, in the same car as a two times WDC, compared very well!!

ioan

20th June 2008, 16:29

Circumstances are subjective to your position but you are correct in the last part. Better to say that a rookie finished above the 2x World Champion in the same team.

That puts it in perspective.

As he said, Lewy didn't score more points than Alonso last season, that is not subjective at all ( that is if you know what subjective means :p : )! :D

PSfan

20th June 2008, 16:47

ArrowsFA1

20th June 2008, 17:16

One can also see the mistakes LH is making this year and come to the conclusion that perhaps the higher expactations of being undesputed #1 at McLeran is having an affect this year as well.
He's second in the WDC for goodness sake :eek:

Expectations of Lewis Hamilton are far higher than for any other driver, and most of the time he has met, or exceeded, those expectations. Yes, he's made errors but if I were a betting man I'd wager he won't make the same error twice.

PSfan

20th June 2008, 17:59

He's second in the WDC for goodness sake :eek:

All things being equal... you stick any of the current drivers in F1 into the #1 seat at McLeran, and 1/2 of them would be leading the championship right now thanks to Ferrari's tactics and luck.

If Hamilton would stop running into the back of his competitors, he would be first now, not tied for second...

Expectations of Lewis Hamilton are far higher than for any other driver, and most of the time he has met, or exceeded, those expectations. Yes, he's made errors but if I were a betting man I'd wager he won't make the same error twice.

Of course expectations are high, he's the #1 driver in arguably the 2nd best team on the grid. I'd hardly classify sitting 2nd in the championship as exceeding those expectations, nor would I suggest that they are "far higher" then the expectations on kimi to repeat his championship at Ferrari.

jens

20th June 2008, 18:15

All things being equal... you stick any of the current drivers in F1 into the #1 seat at McLeran, and 1/2 of them would be leading the championship right now thanks to Ferrari's tactics and luck.

If Hamilton would stop running into the back of his competitors, he would be first now, not tied for second...

But here is one problem. What guarantees that the 1/2 of the current drivers wouldn't make mistakes too? If you look at the amount of driver errors, then most of the drivers have made quite several mistakes this season. Your theory is actually too theoretical and hardly practical, presuming that anyone else in #1 seat at McLaren would perform perfectly. Btw, you are highlighting Hamilton's mistakes, but if we look at the positive side, then would many other drivers have really managed to split the two Ferraris in Turkey? Or won a wet Monaco GP?

For example I wonder whether your 1/2 includes Rosberg, in Canada he would have thrown a lot of points away too by driving through the red light. :p : (and I'm not even going to mention Monaco...)

PSfan

20th June 2008, 18:51

But here is one problem. What guarantees that the 1/2 of the current drivers wouldn't make mistakes too? If you look at the amount of driver errors, then most of the drivers have made quite several mistakes this season. Your theory is actually too theoretical and hardly practical, presuming that anyone else in #1 seat at McLaren would perform perfectly. Btw, you are highlighting Hamilton's mistakes, but if we look at the positive side, then would many other drivers have really managed to split the two Ferraris in Turkey? Or won a wet Monaco GP?

Thats why I stated that 1/2 the drivers would be leading the championship now if they where #1 at Mcleran... the other 1/2 would be making some mistakes (If I didn't consider mistakes, then any driver that would be #1 at McLeran should be leading the championship)

And just because Kazu, or Rosberg made mistakes in a williams, doesn't mean they would make the same mistake in a Mac...

Hamiltons 2nd at Turkey was more a result of Ferrari running 2 stints on softs, more then any exceptional skill by Hamilton... which is why I stated that "thanks to Ferrari's tactics and luck"

For example I wonder whether your 1/2 includes Rosberg, in Canada he would have thrown a lot of points away too by driving through the red light. :p : (and I'm not even going to mention Monaco...)

As I said already said, I wouldn't count on Rosberg making the same mistakes, or having the same accidents if he was in the Mcleran. One can also question that if it was Rosberg in front of Hamilton, if he would have paid more attention to the lights and not crashed into a driver stopped in front, but my opinion isn't based on the results of a sigle race or incident, nor did I name drivers who I think would be 1st in the Mac. I simply said atg least half the drivers in F1 would be leading the championswhip in Hamiltons place, but I think even I would be suprised by some of those drivers...

Mad_Hatter

20th June 2008, 19:08

LH didn't score more points then Alonso last season.

:D
Leave it to me, my mistake.

As he said, Lewy didn't score more points than Alonso last season, that is not subjective at all ( that is if you know what subjective means )!

I think he was talking about the "given the circumstances" part, not the "more points" part.

What were these circumstances, if you don't mind my asking.

I was also under the impression that Alonso and Mark Webber(sorta OT) didn't share their data with their teammates.

Valve Bounce

21st June 2008, 03:16

I think Lewis Hamilton is doing slightly better than his team mate. Perhaps it's just a matter of luck??

Mad_Hatter

21st June 2008, 04:05

As he said, Lewy didn't score more points than Alonso last season, that is not subjective at all ( that is if you know what subjective means )!

Just thought about this, 0-2 in this thread. Yeah, I think I'll leave this one alone.
:p

markabilly

21st June 2008, 04:31

Not meant to take anything away from Hamiltons fine rookie season, but a quick look at the 2007 season shows that Hamilton had a 14-16 point advantage over Alonso at the 1/2 mark, the fact they finished tied in points is telling IMHO.

I think as expectations rose, Hamilton began to make mistakes that allowed Kimi and Alonso to catch up... One can also see the mistakes LH is making this year and come to the conclusion that perhaps the higher expactations of being undesputed #1 at McLeran is having an affect this year as well.
Yeah and add the FA pole position taken away in Hungary by LH's refusual to follow orders and his childish antics that caused FA to blow up, and assume that FA finished second (or first) instead of fifth....the clear and undisputed WDC would have been FA...... :eek:

Instead we have a repeat of the infamous mac crud similar to what went on with Prost and Lauda when they were together......

And without that blow up, Ronnie D. never would have been on the phone to maX trying to tell him :laugh: that whatever FA had to say about cheating was not true..... which eventually lead to Mac :grenade: in both the WDC and the WCC :crazy:

ioan

21st June 2008, 11:05

I think he was talking about the "given the circumstances" part, not the "more points" part.

He said:

Better to say that a rookie finished above the 2x World Champion in the same team.

What were these circumstances, if you don't mind my asking.

Why do you ask me? Where did I mention circumstances?

I was also under the impression that Alonso and Mark Webber(sorta OT) didn't share their data with their teammates.

Impressions are not facts, and the facts are that Alonso did share his data with Hamilton up to the moment where he realized tht\ something was wrong in the team.

Valve Bounce

21st June 2008, 13:36

He said:

Impressions are not facts, and the facts are that Alonso did share his data with Hamilton up to the moment where he realized tht\ something was wrong in the team.

Yeah!! like when he selected 1st gear and the car started to play the Spanish National anthem instead. :D

SGWilko

21st June 2008, 15:35

Yeah!! like when he selected 1st gear and the car started to play the Spanish National anthem instead. :D

Or he pressed the pit radio button, and he got squirted with water and his dicky bow spun round and round................

Mad_Hatter

21st June 2008, 19:17

He said...
As well as, "Circumstances are subjective to your position but you are correct in the last part. Better to say that a rookie finished above the 2x World Champion in the same team."
Meaning(I believe) it would have been better for me to say LH finished above a 2x F1 Champ then "score more points" in my first post. I would have had I not forgot that they scored the same number of points, but LH finished 2nd over FA's 3rd.

Why do you ask me? Where did I mention circumstances?
That question wasn't directed at you, my fault.

Impressions are not facts, and the facts are that Alonso did share his data with Hamilton up to the moment where he realized tht\ something was wrong in the team.
I didn't mean impressions are facts. I didn't know it was a fact that he shared his data.

Big Ben

21st June 2008, 20:50

:D
Leave it to me, my mistake.

I think he was talking about the "given the circumstances" part, not the "more points" part.

What were these circumstances, if you don't mind my asking.

I was also under the impression that Alonso and Mark Webber(sorta OT) didn't share their data with their teammates.

those circumstances are the fact that he had a chance few/no rookie had... to start his f1 career in a car capable of winning races and the championship with a 2 times wdc preparing the car for him (too)...

and just my opinion: a team run by people stupid enough to favor a rookie over a 2 times wdc...

Mad_Hatter

22nd June 2008, 11:29

Guys I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

gravity

22nd June 2008, 11:47

McLaren would have had ways of working out Alonso's setup, and passing the info across to Lewis's car, if FA wanted it or not.
I think FA knew that, and that's why the whole McLaren performance seemed to have dropped mid-late season. FA stopped trying to find the 'best' setup, rather one that would be good enough to compete but not fast enough for LH to win in.
Did u notice all the 'last minute pit changes' in quali at the end of the season? Perhaps further evidence that FA had a good setup in mind, but only gave that info to the team when it was too late to give it to LH.

Valve Bounce

22nd June 2008, 12:19

Guys I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think you will discover that quite a few people don't like Lewis Hamilton here. Perhaps it is because he performed so well in his rookie year; or perhaps he has a rather high opinion of his own ability which he has openly expressed.

As far as I am concerned, looking at his performances dispassionately, I have to concede that he performed extremely well last year, and if I had to write his report card, all his marks would have been excellent.

But of course, had he been pedaling a Supr Aguri, .........................................

F1boat

22nd June 2008, 12:24

markabilly

22nd June 2008, 16:43

I think you will discover that quite a few people don't like Lewis Hamilton here. ........ he has a rather high opinion of his own ability which he has openly expressed.

But of course, had he been pedaling a Supr Aguri, .........................................

Add the "openly expressed" to the "mac advantage" together and that explains how I feel about it

just reminds me too much of Danica p., her mouth works the same way, ( "I this, I that, I am, I ......)" except he has done more with what he got.

Sort of like Disney marketing of youngsters that turns them into superstars (Hanna Montana, Jonas Brothers etc that I am forced to listen to by certain youngsters in our house--some small natural talent or ability that gets thier foot in the door, but then they are carefully and thoroughly taught by their trainers, and once learned, the marketing takes over and the dollars roll in)

The TV takes over, focuses on them the same way as a Hanna Montana, and the camera is focused on Danic P stomping away at the end of the race at Indy rather than who actually won......and so on with LH...

If bernie were to give it some marketing thought, I am suprized he has not strong armed some team into having a woman driver...... :rolleyes:

Somebody

22nd June 2008, 16:57

Does the fact that Alonso has 2 WDC overshadow the fact Hamilton scored more points than FA last season?

He didn't. Same number of points:

http://www.grandprix.com/f12007/standings.html
1. KIMI RAIKKONEN - 110
2. LEWIS HAMILTON - 109
3. FERNANDO ALONSO - 109

truefan72

23rd June 2008, 02:14

It is the right thing to do IMO. Lewis is his rival and have no right to benefit from Fred's experience.

There are too many things wrong with that statement.

Alonso is in his team and LH is in his own. As I said,I would have loved to see the both of them continue at McLaren with Alonso adopting a better attitude towards friendly competition. He and Lewis would be competing for the WDC just like massa and kimi are doing now. He would surely have won a race already and we would have had a 5 way fight for the WDC. Instead he let his ego and presumptive entitlement get in the way, cost the team $100 mil, and took a severe hit to his value up and down the pit lane.

It will be now interesting to see how he deals with NPJr beating him and if he continues to improve. Maybe he has learned to not fear internal competition or maybe we'll see him being petulant again.

Valve Bounce

23rd June 2008, 02:17

Add the "openly expressed" to the "mac advantage" together and that explains how I feel about it

just reminds me too much of Danica p., her mouth works the same way, ( "I this, I that, I am, I ......)" except he has done more with what he got.

Sort of like Disney marketing of youngsters that turns them into superstars (Hanna Montana, Jonas Brothers etc that I am forced to listen to by certain youngsters in our house--some small natural talent or ability that gets thier foot in the door, but then they are carefully and thoroughly taught by their trainers, and once learned, the marketing takes over and the dollars roll in)

The TV takes over, focuses on them the same way as a Hanna Montana, and the camera is focused on Danic P stomping away at the end of the race at Indy rather than who actually won......and so on with LH...

If bernie were to give it some marketing thought, I am suprized he has not strong armed some team into having a woman driver...... :rolleyes:

May I suggest you download Firefox and use that browser for your forum discussions - it picks up all the spelling mistakes. :p :

markabilly

23rd June 2008, 04:32

May I suggest you download Firefox and use that browser for your forum discussions - it picks up all the spelling mistakes. :p :

what misteaks?

Valve Bounce

23rd June 2008, 04:34

Shifter

23rd June 2008, 06:05

jens

23rd June 2008, 09:01

It is the right thing to do IMO. Lewis is his rival and have no right to benefit from Fred's experience.

Team-mates usually cooperate to try to work together with the team to move it forward most effectively. What's wrong with learning from an experienced driver? :s It is and has been done on a lot of occasions. You see rookies often saying that they have a lot to learn from their experienced team-mates.

ArrowsFA1

23rd June 2008, 10:05

It is the right thing to do IMO. Lewis is his rival and have no right to benefit from Fred's experience.
I assume you apply the same argument to...let's say...MS & Massa in 2006?

Knock-on

23rd June 2008, 16:12

Does the fact that Alonso has 2 WDC overshadow the fact Hamilton scored more points than FA last season?

i.e. The fact MH claimed is whether Alonso's 2 WDC have any bearing on the fact that Hamilton overshadowed Alonso last season by scoring more points than him.

no, it doesn't.... given the circumstances... and btw... even though it's just a detail: LH didn't score more points then Alonso last season.

eu claimed that given the circumstances, it didn't.

He then claimed in the 2nd part of his post that they both scored the same points. An undeniable FACT!

Circumstances are subjective to your position but you are correct in the last part. Better to say that a rookie finished above the 2x World Champion in the same team.

That puts it in perspective.

Obviously, by including the word "circumstances", I was responding to that part of the post.

I then further clarified the difference by specifically mentioning the 2nd part of his post where I clarified that although they had the same points, Lewis finished 2nd in the championship.

As he said, Lewy didn't score more points than Alonso last season, that is not subjective at all ( that is if you know what subjective means :p : )! :D

Mad Hatter said that Lewis scored more points; a claim he corrected later in the thread I think?

I said that Lewis finished above Alonso in the Championship.

Subjective meaning as in Websters:

3 a: characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind.

i.e. a mental process where you use information as you see it.

It is a fact that they both had the same points just as it is a fact that Lewis finished ahead. The difference can be subjective to position and although seemingly at odds, both perfectly correct. It just depends on your perception.

Surely, it is incredibly foolish to claim someone doesn't know the meaning of a word when you didn't even bother to find out what it means yourself :laugh:

You will be pleased to know that I received an infraction today for suggesting (in a joking manner) that your "lights were on but nobody was home". This was seen as an insult so for the people like yourself and some of the Mods who do not understand this term, I shall expand.

It is not an insult but a term to point out when someone isn't using their brain. For dragging out such a pointless point by getting someone to demonstrate how wrong you are, (as per usual), it very clearly demonstrated that I made an accurate statement and not an insult.

SGWilko

23rd June 2008, 16:20

You will be pleased to know that I received an infraction today for suggesting (in a joking manner) that your "lights were on but nobody was home". This was seen as an insult so for the people like yourself and some of the Mods who do not understand this term, I shall expand.

It is not an insult but a term to point out when someone isn't using their brain. For dragging out such a pointless point by getting someone to demonstrate how wrong you are, (as per usual), it very clearly demonstrated that I made an accurate statement and not an insult.

Knockie, don't even waste your breath mate. I truly believe the mods on this ere forum are less consistent than the average F1 Steward.

I suspect it is becaus e English is not their [some of them] first language and they do not understand the finer points of our language.

You'd cringe at some of the infractions I have had, and the incorrect way on one occasion that I was told I was banned for life, when it was just a week. They did not even seem to care. I just got a half hearted 'it was a mistake' from them.

Still, at least it's not raining on day one at Wimbledon! :)

ioan

23rd June 2008, 17:06

You will be pleased to know that I received an infraction today for suggesting (in a joking manner) that your "lights were on but nobody was home". This was seen as an insult so for the people like yourself and some of the Mods who do not understand this term, I shall expand.

Yes I'm please indeed.

It is not an insult but a term to point out when someone isn't using their brain.

I think this explanation is proof enough that what you meant to say was intended to be an insult.

And if you believe that you were to easily given an infraction, than you should know that people have been banned for way less than your insult towards me.

Another thing is that I didn't even care to report your insulting post, and this mean that someone else (maybe one of the Mods, or maybe another member) did find it insulting enough to report it.

SGWilko

23rd June 2008, 17:09

I didn't even care to report your insulting post.

I should hope not. I can't stand these wet weekends who are so insecure they resort to reporting banaal banter because they have no grasp of reality, no sense of humour or, for that matter, common sense. :down:

Knock-on

23rd June 2008, 17:30

Yes I'm please indeed.

I think this explanation is proof enough that what you meant to say was intended to be an insult.

And if you believe that you were to easily given an infraction, than you should know that people have been banned for way less than your insult towards me.

Another thing is that I didn't even care to report your insulting post, and this mean that someone else (maybe one of the Mods, or maybe another member) did find it insulting enough to report it.

How can it be an insult if it's true :laugh:

I pointed out where you accuse someone of not knowing the meaning of the word when you obviously dont and the other person does. What would you describe it as if not being a little stupid :p :

You can't carry on going round accusing people and making horrendous mistakes and not expect people to occassionally point them out.

Anyway, enough of this thread. Really can't be bothered.

ioan

23rd June 2008, 17:36

How can it be an insult if it's true :laugh:

I see now, you really want to get banned, don't you?! :p :

Anyway, enough of this thread. Really can't be bothered.

Cheers on this one!

Bagwan

23rd June 2008, 17:58

Knockie, don't even waste your breath mate. I truly believe the mods on this ere forum are less consistent than the average F1 Steward.

I suspect it is becaus e English is not their [some of them] first language and they do not understand the finer points of our language.

You'd cringe at some of the infractions I have had, and the incorrect way on one occasion that I was told I was banned for life, when it was just a week. They did not even seem to care. I just got a half hearted 'it was a mistake' from them.

Still, at least it's not raining on day one at Wimbledon! :)

Perhaps you would be interested to know that there are some of us who have never received a warning or banning .

The rules are simple enough , and the moderators are human . Not always do I agree with how things are done , but it is not so hard to respect the rules , and publc disdain for the moderators shows , in my opinion , utter disrespect .

PM the moderators , have a discussion about it , and work it out .

They do care . And you must , too .

The FIA is not against Lewis , and the mods are not against you .
Sorry to allude to that , but it both made sense to me , and brought the thread back on topic as well .