Coming soon, to a city near you

[CarlMetro]

It started with a small part of London at £5 a time. This increased to £8 very rapidly and now has almost doubled in size. Some motorist groups predict that within ten years anywhere inside the M25 will be in the 'zone'.

Now we are starting to see other major UK cities proposing their own Congestion Charge zones with Manchester looking likely to be the next to join the cash-in without providing adequate alternatives.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6293481.stm

Congestion charges are proposed on main routes into Manchester city centre.
Council leaders from the 10 Greater Manchester authorities are meeting to discuss plans to charge motorists on busy roads into the city by 2012.

The system would target the 15 roads with the greatest congestion but would cost less than the £8 London charge.

[Hazell B]

Might start an argument with this but here goes anyhow ....

I like the idea in some cases. Cities such as York are not only old and badly suited to heavy car use, meaning they're narrow, easily damaged and prone to looking nasty when smeared in car fumes, but they're dreadful to actually use day to day when cars are all over the place.

Park and Ride has taken some traffic out of York. It's easier to walk about there, cleaner smelling and generally looks nicer. Old streets that are pedestrianised are booming markets now. It's brilliant.

Personally I'd like to see more cities do it - though in a limited way like York - and if forking out a fiver when I want to clog up the streets is the price, I shall pay. Buisness travel would have to be cheaper, though.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Congestion is out of control in many cities. Sure, as motorists we may not like the idea of road pricing or congestion charging, but can anybody think of any better ideas?

[BDunnell]

I certainly can't. Most city centre public transport services that I have used are perfectly adequate alternatives to driving, if imperfect. Of course, those martyrs who think that drivers are constantly being penalised just for the hell of it will complain, but as you say, what other alternatives are there?

[BeansBeansBeans]

A better idea would be if companies allowed staff to work from home, where possible. I could certainly do my job from my office at home, and perhaps pop into work once or twice a week for meetings. It would surely help free up the roads for those who need to be based at their workplace.

[CarlMetro]

It might surprise a few people but I'm all for these schemes too, so long as there is a viable alternative. Unfortunately in London the public transport system was already overcrowded before the CC was brought in and there has been little improvement in it since.

The CC just hasn't worked in London, certainly not to the extent that Ken Livingstone and his cronies predicted anyway. I've been driving in and around London for many years and have noticed little difference in traffic levels or journey times.

[BDunnell]

A better idea would be if companies allowed staff to work from home, where possible. I could certainly do my job from my office at home, and perhaps pop into work once or twice a week for meetings. It would surely help free up the roads for those who need to be based at their workplace.

Me too - except I use the train anyway, so my colleagues would be the ones who 'suffered'.

[BDunnell]

It might surprise a few people but I'm all for these schemes too, so long as there is a viable alternative. Unfortunately in London the public transport system was already overcrowded before the CC was brought in and there has been little improvement in it since.

The CC just hasn't worked in London, certainly not to the extent that Ken Livingstone and his cronies predicted anyway. I've been driving in and around London for many years and have noticed little difference in traffic levels or journey times.

On the contrary, I noticed a definite improvement in numbers of buses after the charge came in. And the fact that you don't think congestion has become any worse suggests that it has been successful in halting the increase in the numbers of cars.

Public transport in London is poor in many respects compared with other (smaller) European cities, but it is fine if you don't expect it to be absolutely as convenient as your own car. This isn't to say that it isn't often crap, of course, but I think some people expect too much of public transport as a concept.

[Hazell B]

What sort of problems are there with public transport?

I use busses sometimes if I'm going to Leeds and have found them good, in fact they beat taking the car by a country mile. Not used London transport for years, so haven't a clue how Leeds can get it right and London not. Is it cost or something?

[raybak]

Solution to all your problems, move to Australia, just not Sydney as it has shocking traffic.

Ray :)

[LotusElise]

I do agree with Hazell about some places being unsuitable for heavy traffic - Warwick is a good example, as are various places in Cornwall where driving is quite scary.
Car-free town centre areas do tend to be nicer and easier to walk round.
Unfortunately, people still do need their cars if they're coming in to a place not served well (or at all) by public transport, like the town where I currently live, which has no railway station and a highly questionable bus service totally unsuited to working people. It's a postcode lottery again.

[Hazell B]

That's it Lotus - older cities in the UK just weren't made for cars.

The stonework in most of them is shot to s**t thanks to fumes and it costs millions to replace it, so why not try and get some cars out of the way? We can't just keep making by-passes and building new business centres and malls out of towns or we'll lose the true identity of the British city. Happy medium can't be reached without some areas being car free.

[J4MIE]

I'm going to Edinburgh airport in the morning to catch a flight.

Unfortunately I can't drive there tomorrow or I would.

So I have to get the 06:48 bus to get to the station. £2.50 return. Then the 07:30 train to Haymarket. £18 return. Then £5.00 for the bus to get me to the airport. So that's £25.50 and over two hours and a lot of standing about in the cold.

Or to drive there would take about 45 minutes taking it really easy, and cost about £5 in petrol. Even taking the forth bridge toll into account, the return trip would be about £12.

Not exactly encouraging me to use public transport, is it?

But anyway, Edinburgh voted against the congestion charge, and Dundee isn't really busy enough to need one.

[LotusElise]

What about toll motorways?

Generally I think they are a good idea, judiciously used and with alternative routes, like the M6 Toll. For irregular travellers up the M6, the toll road is a godsend and a pleasant driving experience.

If extra revenue needs raising (and this is what it comes down to, really) then I'd rather have toll roads than congestion charging zones. Yes, there is a strong case for more pedestrianised areas in towns, but these do not have to be huge exclusion zones costing eight quid to enter.

[CarlMetro]

If extra revenue needs raising (and this is what it comes down to, really) then I'd rather have toll roads than congestion charging zones. Yes, there is a strong case for more pedestrianised areas in towns, but these do not have to be huge exclusion zones costing eight quid to enter.

Ah but that's just it, the government, local and national, will tell you that the CC is not a scheme to raise funds, nor is it a scheme to reduce damage to old buildings and protect pedestrians, it is a scheme to reduce congestion on a city's streets, thus making it easier for those who are willing to pay the charge to travel from point A to point B.

I'm all in favour of schemes like the M6 toll, I think it's a wonderful road and use it every time I'm heading up that way. I'm also in favour of 'no car' schemes like the one introduced into Oxford a few years ago, which means the only vehicles allowed into the city centre are buses.

Lets take a look at it this way............

If you currently drive to work, or have to drive through a built up area to reach you place of work, imagine if the local council suddenly said that to do the same journey in future it will cost you £8 a day, Monday to Friday.

What would your reaction be?

[Hazell B]

If you currently drive to work, or have to drive through a built up area to reach you place of work, imagine if the local council suddenly said that to do the same journey in future it will cost you £8 a day, Monday to Friday.

What would your reaction be?

It would depend entirely on the circumstanses.

For example, if I'm already spending a fiver on fuel, three hours in traffic and four quid to park for the day, I'd be thrilled! If I was spending a pound on the bus fare, nothing to park and spending three hours in traffic, I'd also be thrilled. If I was a cyclist, thrilled. Pedestrian, thrilled.

I am willing to bet that most of the people refusing to pay CC and using public transport monday to friday are saving money by doing so. They might not be so happy and feel so in control, but they are saving.

On the down side ....

If I was having to pay for parking just outside the CC area and then facing damage/theft/mugging in the car park each night when I returned, plus the bus fare was costing me more than diesel, I would not be thrilled at all.

Swings and roundabouts - nobody can please everyone can they?

[agwiii]

That's it Lotus - older cities in the UK just weren't made for cars.

Not just the UK. The current issue of WIRED has an interesting article on the ability of major US cities to evacuate, should the need arise. Most of the majors are hopeless.

For example, they said of Miami, "with water on two sides and the everglades on a third, a swamp boat might be the best way your. Come disaster time, cars will get stuck in the automotive quicksand that is I-95."

This is exactly what would happen. When I was evacuated (Hurricane - and I left two days early), traffic came to a complete stop just North of Jupiter. Only those with SUV/4WD were able to get away from the mess.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Agwiii, the point is though in England, the cities were designed before the cars, so they have traffic that would choke a goat, but then again, their public transit blows every North American city in to the weeds save maybe NYC.

The Congestion charge is just a tax grab. Socialistic leaders always try to sell the scheme on the merits of controlling traffic and preserving the city center, but lets be honest, when they jump the price as much as they have in London, it is a clear gouge. With the price of Petrol what it is, you would think British drivers suffer enough, but oh no, they have to get wailed on driving downtown. I think people who drive into the city core do so for a reason, that is public transit doesn't fit their needs.

To penalize people for a city not having proper transit is a bit rude, but then again, I understand that city cores in many cities cant handle the traffic they have, but I just feel that the governments are more interested in the revenue....

[CarlMetro]

Of course there's also the other side to the sting, which is the small fact that residents within the Congestion Charge zone have to also pay for the privilege of driving out of the zone. Whilst it's only 50p a day, it's another £180 a year yyou would have to pay that you didn't before the CC was started or indeed expanded.

But hey! They can afford to live in London so they get what they deserve, right? :rolleyes:

Just imagine if your local council expected you to pay 50p every time you wanted to take your car off your drive.

[BDunnell]

Agwiii, the point is though in England, the cities were designed before the cars, so they have traffic that would choke a goat, but then again, their public transit blows every North American city in to the weeds save maybe NYC.

The Congestion charge is just a tax grab. Socialistic leaders always try to sell the scheme on the merits of controlling traffic and preserving the city center, but lets be honest, when they jump the price as much as they have in London, it is a clear gouge. With the price of Petrol what it is, you would think British drivers suffer enough, but oh no, they have to get wailed on driving downtown. I think people who drive into the city core do so for a reason, that is public transit doesn't fit their needs.

To penalize people for a city not having proper transit is a bit rude, but then again, I understand that city cores in many cities cant handle the traffic they have, but I just feel that the governments are more interested in the revenue....

I presume you would not be in favour of increasing taxation to pay for better public transport? Yet this is the problem. Britain has historically invested less in public transport than most European countries, and is now paying the price (coupled with the problems caused by removing much public transport from the public sector).

London's public transport is far from perfect, but I say again that there are few reasons to use your car instead.

[Mark]

Public transport is usually a last resort for most. Gateshead/Newcastle has decent PT comparitively but lets consider a couple of journies I make regularly.

Home->Work
By PT:
Outward:
* Walk to bus stop, 12 minutes
* Wait for bus, 0-15 minutes
* Bus journey, 40 minutes
Total: 52 - 67 minutes

Return:
* Walk to metro - 5 minutes
* Metro to Gateshead - 10 minutes
* Wait for bus - 0-15 minutes
* Bus journey home - 20 minutes
* Walk home - 12 minutes
Total: 47 - 62 minutes

Total time taken 1 hr 39 min - 2 hr 9 min. STRESS FACTOR: 10


Now lets consider the alternative by car
Outward:
* Drive to work - 10 minutes
Return
* Drive back from work - 20 minutes

Total time taken : 30 minutes STRESS FACTOR: 1 (plus I'm able to stop along the way and pick up shopping etc)

So try to tell me that public transport is better?!

[Mark]

Home -> Karens house (7 miles away)

By car:
Outward: 8-10 minutes
Return: 8-10 minutes
Total: 16-20 minutes STRESS FACTOR: -1

By bus
*Walk to bus stop: 12 minutes
*Wait for bus: 0-20 minutes
*Bus journey: 45 minutes
*Walk to Karens house: 10 minutes
Total: 1hr 7mins - 1hr 27mins STRESS FACTOR: 10

Return journey:
After 6pm: No buses!!

[Hazell B]

* Drive to work - 10 minutes
Return
* Drive back from work - 20 minutes


So try to tell me that public transport is better?!

You're saying that you'd be forced to use public transport?

If it's a ten minute drive to work, it's only 10 miles if you do 60 from your drive to the car park, but more likely 3 or 4 miles max.

What's wrong with a push bike or legs? Is your place of work liable to be even covered by charges?

[Mark]

If it's a ten minute drive to work, it's only 10 miles if you do 60 from your drive to the car park, but more likely 3 or 4 miles max.

4 miles, appox.



What's wrong with a push bike or legs? Is your place of work liable to be even covered by charges?

Takes 1hr 10 minutes to walk it, I know because I do it a lot. Trouble is, one way is fine, two ways gets boring.

My place of work is already covered by charges, approx £40 a month, and they are talking about bringing in tolls to drive into Newcastle.

[BeansBeansBeans]

My place of work is already covered by charges, approx £40 a month, and they are talking about bringing in tolls to drive into Newcastle.

I've heard that, and I get a paranoid feeling that they're creating extra congestion in order to justify it. There always seems to be roadworks and closures of well-used roads and bridges.

[Lousada]

Build large car parks right off the motorways. Than let busses drive every 5 minutes from the carpark to the citycentre for, let's say, 2 pounds. Make the carpark price free if you spent X amount on shopping or visited this or that museum. You could also have deductions for people who work in the citycentre to encourage them to use this setup. This system is already used for tourists in a few cities in Belgium and The Netherlands and works pretty well.
The only problem is that it needs to be subsidized. But because city council and parking-owners can now charge a fortune for parking in the city-centre, they'd rather receive the money, than spend it to solve a problem.

[Mark]

Build large car parks right off the motorways. Than let busses drive every 5 minutes from the carpark to the citycentre for, let's say, 2 pounds. Make the carpark price free if you spent X amount on shopping or visited this or that museum. You could also have deductions for people who work in the citycentre to encourage them to use this setup. This system is already used for tourists in a few cities in Belgium and The Netherlands and works pretty well.
The only problem is that it needs to be subsidized. But because city council and parking-owners can now charge a fortune for parking in the city-centre, they'd rather receive the money, than spend it to solve a problem.

This is already in place in many cities in the UK. Durham, Ipswich and Norwich are some that immediately spring to mind. When visiting an unknown city for the day, I often like to use P&R as it takes the stress out of finding parking etc.

But there are some problems. Firstly with charges, Durham charges £1.70 return, not bad you might think? Well not bad if you are visiting to do a spot of shopping, but if you are using it for work that's £8.50 per week, some people can afford that, many cannot, remember this is on top of your petrol etc.

Secondly is speed, some P&R services are good for this and some not. Bascially they need to go straight from the car park and straight into the city centre no stopping!. The thing which puts people off using local bus services is that they take forever stopping all the time. P&R should be an express service where you get on at the motorway, and get off at the city centre and you are transported as quickly as possible between the two. Unfortunately many P&R's I've used manage to stop about a dozen times on the way in, and take that long that you are already thinking about wanting to go back again :s

[Hazell B]

There's also the huge problems with park and ride systems like cars being stolen or damaged in the parks (they're too big to monitor well) and women alone feeling unsafe wandering about in the dark looking for their car while lugging shopping.

Okay Mark, if walking is out and the charges would cripple you, how about swapping to LPG and making the system pay you instead? Cheaper fuel until the duty goes up, plus easier city travel (they let green cars in free or cheap, I think) and the pleasure of not bunging up everyone's lung space.

[Mark]

They were on the news last night about them spending £2 million on a study (on a study! :s ) to see if charging would be viable in Tyne & Wear.

Apparently they've already considered putting a toll on the Tyne bridge and other crossings (there is already a toll on the tunnel) but it was ruled out as infesible.

They are now considering London style congestion charging or some sort of toll on the A1. Any scheme won't come in until 2015 at the earliest.

[Mark]

They were on the news last night about them spending £2 million on a study (on a study! :s ) to see if charging would be viable in Tyne & Wear.

Apparently they've already considered putting a toll on the Tyne bridge and other crossings (there is already a toll on the tunnel) but it was ruled out as infesible. .

They are now considering London style congestion charging or some sort of toll on the A1. Any scheme won't come in until 2015 at the earliest.

[CarlMetro]

And so it begins...........

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/204993/ten_new_ccharge_towns_are_named.html

The Government is proposing that one region outside of London will carry out a major road toll trial - and that could open the pay-as-you-go floodgates for other areas.

Ten councils have been given a total of around £9million to research the viability of bringing the charge to their areas and report back with their findings. The cash is for drawing up proposals by funding researchers, con*sultants and traffic specialists. These will pinpoint where charging cameras should go, and how the councils would make the scheme work. They have until July to complete their reports, and it's believed the decision on who will conduct the trial will be announ*ced by the Department for Transport (DfT) three months later.

The Government will put another £200million up to fund the works for the successful city, starting in 2008, and officials are looking at a nationwide congestion charge roll-out from 2010.

[Hazell B]

I'll let you into a little secret now ;)

York's already had a go at working out how they'd police a congestion charge, but the authority won't admit it in public. They've collared some lorry parking areas and spoken to the owners about how they could be of use (that's how I know) and trailed some cameras that cover traffic lights on the entire in and out routes, enabling a central room to alter traffic flow via lights.

The top council woman's daughter got married in the city centre and they made sure she hit not one red light in her wedding car, thus bringing all the city to an Italian Job style standstill. She got in some trouble ... and the plan was shelved as a result :p :

They're still maintaining those cameras and so on though!

[555-04Q2]

Congestion is out of control in many cities. Sure, as motorists we may not like the idea of road pricing or congestion charging, but can anybody think of any better ideas?

Its quite simple really, decentralisation of commercial areas. Fewer people going to one commercial area ( ie: CBD ) = less congestion.

[Mark]

Its quite simple really, decentralisation of commercial areas. Fewer people going to one commercial area ( ie: CBD ) = less congestion.

Possibly, but then you end up with out of town centres, (like the Metro Centre) with congestion which is just as bad.

[555-04Q2]

Possibly, but then you end up with out of town centres, (like the Metro Centre) with congestion which is just as bad.

Works over here just fine. There is still traffic of course, but not in the manner that you guys get where you can sit for hours in a traffic jam.

The secret is to not build too many multi level buildings within a small radius as CBD's are set out. 5000 people trying to get to one building on a small piece of land is the problem, not the cars.

[ArrowsFA1]

Just had this in my email inbox:

If you drive a car in the UK, please read –Sarah Kennedy was talking about this proposed car tax scheme on Radio 2. Apparently there is only one month left to register your objection to the Pay As You Go' road tax. The petition is on the 10 Downing St website but they didn't tell Anybody about it. Therefore at the time of Sarah's comments only 250,000 people had signed it and 750,000 signatures are required for the government to at least take any notice. Once you've given your details (you don't have to give your full address, just house number and postcode will do), they will send you an email with a link in it. Once you click on that link, you'll have signed the petition. The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you Having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it. The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC, the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery driver. A non working mother who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in one month. On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody Will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit in time you can probably expect a Notice of Intended Prosecution with your monthly bill. If you are concerned about this Orwellian plan and want to stop theconstant bashing of the car driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website and pass this on to as many people as possible. Sign up if you value your freedom and democratic rights.

[Storm]

What sort of problems are there with public transport?


None. Atleast as far as I can see from what little I used of the tube and buses in London....Infact all of large cities of Europe I think do have fantastic public transport to business districts/city centres.

And you guys are still cribbing ;)

I would love to have transport like that plus a really high congestion charge levied in our city centres which , calling them chaotic is an understatement.
I guess it is the problem of the west in general, having too much...whether it be resources or money and then one expects everything to be absolutely smooth and to your liking. :)

[Lousada]

Just had this in my email inbox:

If you drive a car in the UK, please read –Sarah Kennedy was talking about this proposed car tax scheme on Radio 2. Apparently there is only one month left to register your objection to the Pay As You Go' road tax. The petition is on the 10 Downing St website but they didn't tell Anybody about it.

In our newspaper today it was said that 1.3 million signed the (a?) petition and that Blair was forced to respond to everyone. Anyone heard anything about that? Britain seems quite the frontrunner in this, so for mainland Europe it's interesting to follow this.
On a sidenote, Belgium as well as The Netherlands will most probably have toll before 2011. I'd wonder what will happen if we'd all switch to electrical cars. Surely the pollution argument then could not be used anymore so how would they extract money?

[LotusElise]

Just thought I'd add something more to this debate, after experiencing the public transport system in Sheffield today.

Sheffield has a good park and ride system for visitors. The car parks are not far off the motorway and you pay £3.60 for a day's parking and all-day tram fares, around the city. The trams were comfortable and well-maintained and ran a regular service. They also had conductors on board, which most bus services no longer have, which meant fewer delays getting on and off, as you didn't need to pay the driver on entry.

If pedestrianised town centres came with more of these services, I see no problem for many users. It was quite nic not to be scrabbling for parking spaces or worrying about pay and display tickets.

[BDunnell]

Just thought I'd add something more to this debate, after experiencing the public transport system in Sheffield today.

Sheffield has a good park and ride system for visitors. The car parks are not far off the motorway and you pay £3.60 for a day's parking and all-day tram fares, around the city. The trams were comfortable and well-maintained and ran a regular service. They also had conductors on board, which most bus services no longer have, which meant fewer delays getting on and off, as you didn't need to pay the driver on entry.

If pedestrianised town centres came with more of these services, I see no problem for many users. It was quite nic not to be scrabbling for parking spaces or worrying about pay and display tickets.

As a former resident of Sheffield, I can vouch for the fact that its public transport network is very good and renders a car unnecessary for most journeys. The Supertram system was ill-thought-out in several respects, but in other ways it's fine and works well. The bus network is very comprehensive and I found it generally reliable. Nonetheless, I'm sure that many people would think it was poor on the grounds that it doesn't deliver you directly to your door and you might have to sit next to someone not of your choosing...